If women really are asking guys who are complete strangers out on dates, Joe Welkie would like to see the proof.
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Recently, a lady friend and I got into a discussion about dating. We were comparing notes with our most recent experiences of online dating and real-life dating. She brought up many gripes she had about dating men and I brought up mine with women.
She agreed with me on many of the topics, until we got to one. I brought up that I believe women aren’t nearly as proactive as men when it comes to dating.
She couldn’t disagree fast enough. She swore she and all the girls she knows put a lot of effort into dating, and I have no right to counter.
She thought my contention was completely off-base.
Sure, many people have different experiences and different viewpoints on the world, and I can only speak from my experience, but I genuinely believe men are more proactive than women in dating.
Many women think they are real go-getters when it comes to dating, and from what I’ve seen and experienced, it just isn’t true.
An article I recently read about “the new rules of chivalry” set off our debate. The article brought up who should pay for the first date, noted that the old rules of chivalry claimed the gentleman would always pick up the check, which I feel like we all understand.
The new rule of chivalry is, apparently, whoever asks for the date should pay. For instance, if the guy asks the girl out, he pays and if the girl asks the guy out, she pays.
I scoffed at this notion because women hardly ever ask guys out. I’ll go out on a limb and say that in 95 percent of cases, it just doesn’t happen.
Obviously, I have no real statistics or measurements to get this percentage, so instead, I decided to conduct a little experiment.
I created an online dating profile with the aim to ask no girls out and to wait for a girl to ask me out. I’d do everything else normally — fill out the profile, answer the questions, add pictures, message women I fancy, the whole shebang.
I just wouldn’t ask the woman out. Instead, I’d wait for the woman to do the deed.
The results were as I expected: In the 107 matches I received and the hundreds of messages I sent, no women asked me out. One girl, in particular, I’ve communicated with for more than 100 messages has yet to ask me out. What’s the deal?
In many cases, I would match with a girl, see she visited my profile, and she still wouldn’t send the first message. I even decided to up the ante.
In the profile portion where it says, “I spend a lot of time thinking about…” I put, “Why don’t the women on this site ever send the first message?”
So, they have all of this evidence pointing toward, “You should send the first message,” or “You should make the first move,” and… nothing.
The only women with whom I had correspondence were the ones I messaged first, and none of them offered their phone number unless I asked, and none of them ever asked me out.
At this point, you may be saying, “Yeah, Joe, but maybe you’re not that great,” or “Did you do something to annoy them?” or maybe, “They were just being polite in messaging you back, etc.”
All fair points. But, that still doesn’t explain the woman I’ve messaged with over 100 times.
Many times, she messaged me unsolicited. She asked questions back and was engaged in the conversation. So, why couldn’t she pull the trigger on asking me out? Why is this still a thing women expect only men to do?
And, this isn’t an isolated case. There were numerous other women I messaged back and forth for 20-plus messages and received no invitations for a date at all.
Sure, there were definitely some conversations that petered out in the very early stages of the messaging, but there were quite a few I had messaged numerous times.
This is exactly why I scoff at the notion of a woman treating a man to a first date. It will just never happen if it comes down to the woman bucking up and asking the guy out.
Now, I understand there are women who contend they’ve asked guys out before. But, many of the times they’ve asked a guy out were under completely BS circumstances.
For example, if you asked a guy to the prom, that doesn’t count. If you’ve been friends with a guy for a long time and finally realize there is a spark there, that doesn’t count. If you’ve been sleeping with a guy and, suddenly, you have feelings for him, that doesn’t count.
I’m talking about when it’s cold and open, and you two are complete strangers. It just doesn’t happen. Most women just won’t do it, despite their claims of being forward-thinking and proactive.
Sure, there are certainly one-in-a-million cases, but those are outliers in terms of what is the norm.
Regardless of what people think of the “new rules of chivalry” and proactive women, when it comes to dating, the onus is still squarely on men to make something happen to get a relationship going.
If you expect a woman to ask you out, even if she is interested in you, even if all signs point to her being head-over-heels in love with you, don’t hold your breath — that invitation is not coming.
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Originally published on Elite Daily
Author: Joe Welkie
Joe Welkie is a contributing writer based in New York City. He attended University of Maryland and majored in Communication and Social Psychology. He performs stand up comedy which you can check out at his website, joewelkie.com.
Photo: rafael-castillo / flickr
Exactly. Women want their cake (dates) and eat it too (talk like they are so aggressive with approaching men).
“For example, if you asked a guy to the prom, that doesn’t count. If you’ve been friends with a guy for a long time and finally realize there is a spark there, that doesn’t count. If you’ve been sleeping with a guy and, suddenly, you have feelings for him, that doesn’t count.” All those do count. In fact, that’s how women ask men out. They get to know them to figure out whether they *want* to ask them out. The “cold ask” is a method mostly men use, and that’s fine, but to measure women according to a male measure… Read more »
Even in cases where the man and woman know each other real well or a while, it’s still typically the man that asks the woman out.
When men stop calilng women desperate for showing interest, teh tides may turn.
How about you go police your fellow men rather than tell us how it should be done. Almost all relationships fail when the woman chases. He ends up playing the female role and being submissive which is a complete and utter turn off for all women who aren’t masculine in nature.
We are females and we will continue to act so whether you like it or not. If you dont like it turn gay!
Because you women just dont know how to make it work when you chase, and when you dont chase it fails the same way>>>
IMHO, it has a lot to do with conventional thinking about what women or men should do or shouldn’t. Even though we are in 21st century, it still causes eyebrows to raise when a woman asks a man out. And even men themselves are wary of women who take up the running. I think many women would prefer to ask guys they like out rather than to wait and go around the bushes. I’ve been exchanging messages on https://kovla.com/datings/us/springfield with a couple of guys who seem really nice, and I would be glad to make the first step. But honestly,… Read more »
“But honestly, I am afraid that I can scare them away being so proactive, and that they would think I am just desperate to date them .” Welcome to the jungle lady, that is what men have to face on a daily basis..
Old fashioned. The man pursues the woman if interested. The woman accepts if interested. The man pays. The man utilizes his creativity to PLAN the date and actually courts her. The level of his creativity and attention determines if he is worthy of her attention and affection – her interest. You court one person, not several, not circle dating, no pending relationships … just in case. No booty calls. You get to know each other as friends, courting, engaged, married … then sex. You wait to have sex when you have already committed yourselves to each other through marriage. One… Read more »
And there it is. Women are worthy for simply having a vagina, and men need/should jump through hoops to prove they are worthy. And only then when Sky Wizard is in approval.
Hi Josh You sound bitter at women. Would you like to be reborn in your next life as a woman? Yes or no. Do you think the sexual repression of women we see most places on earth is women choice? Do you think it is easy for women(US) to know they can max have 4-7 sex partners in a life time? Yes some are strong and have more,but most women do not have sex with all the men they are attracted to and have a chance to make love with. And in addiction we have to face comptemt from men… Read more »
sorry a typo
in addition we have to face contempt from men like you…
Why?
Josh is bitter? He just called that nonsense traditional old fashioned nonsense that is still the status quo.
And we are talking western dating norms don’t try to bring the oppression of women in other countries and actually compare it to men calling out and not subscribing to old fashioned dating what ever.
Who is this “we” own your own opinions don’t pull that false consensus effect.
NoID
I actually see and experience sexual oppression of womens sexuality in Western countries.
So you agree with his statement ” women are worthy for simply having a vagina”.
That is interesting!
And women should be a help mate you forgot that.
I think a more accurate header would be, “Women Aren’t Being As Proactive In Modern Dating In The Same Ways Men Are.” But to make a blanket statement that not asking men out means we aren’t proactive in our own ways, or we are just lazy, doesn’t give enough credit to the complexity of human behavior. On that note, by this date in our society, people should have the freedom to approach dating from how they want to approach it. If you want to ask people out, and you’re a man or woman, then do it. If you don’t want… Read more »
@ Erin “She agreed with me on many of the topics, until we got to one. I brought up that I believe women aren’t nearly as proactive as men when it comes to dating.” Although I agree with a lot of what you say (Weird how a man who knows what type of woman he wants is open for criticism in your eyes, but not the reverse.), the question is are women being as proactive as men. His friend seems to think so. They aren’t. So though you’re right that people need to approach dating the way that they’re comfortable,… Read more »
Okay John, I’ll play. How am I criticizing a man who “knows what he wants”? I’ll say it again, approaching someone is *not* the only way one acts pro-actively in the dating world. It may be the most obvious form of pro-activeness, but it is not the only form of pro-active choices. I think what some men have trouble with is that the pro-active choices women make can infact look very different from the pro-active choices men make in dating. And while I will agree that a man doing the initiating does infact take the bigger risk at the beginning;… Read more »
Erin:
You don’t think women should have to ‘conform’ to men’s expectations, but you seem to assume that a man should have to conform to your expectations, don’t you?
Not at all Publius! I would never want to be in a relationship with a man where he felt he was being forced to conform to my expectations! I don’t think that would make for a very happy relationship do you? What I am looking for is a man whose expectations match my own. I am looking for a true partner, not someone that pretends to be my partner just to make me happy. I would never want any man to feel he had to do that in his relationship. He needs to find someone who has the same values,… Read more »
To all of you:
Is this article of any use for online dating?
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/feb/24/i-created-a-bot-to-find-love-online-reader-it-worked
Dear Men,
I promise to be more proactive in the future … but if I do ask you out, please show some enthusiasm (unlike the few other guys I have asked out who acted like a deer in headlights). Otherwise I’ll feel like you’re not that keen. And I’ll stop asking.
Signed
Me (a chick)
@ AMic
“but if I do ask you out, please show some enthusiasm (unlike the few other guys I have asked out who acted like a deer in headlights). Otherwise I’ll feel like you’re not that keen. And I’ll stop asking. ”
Wow, talk about entitled. I’ll ask guys out if their enthusiastic about it otherwise I’ll stop. Really, and women complain when guys ask that women just be kind when turning them down.
Gee whiz! A lot of women whom I approach don’t seem all that keen, either. Should I just quit asking?
Start to socialize instead.
I don’t think most people date complete strangers. Most date coworkers, friends of friends, classmates, etc… I personally fear for my safety asking a stranger out. I have asked men out before. I also pay on dates. I do find some men assume I just want to have sex instead of going on a date. Others have assumed I am looking to get serious/married right away. This frustrates me and discourages me from asking. While online dating I personally liked to email awhile before meeting someone. Personal safety again. Most men asked to meet way before I felt comfortable. I… Read more »
What do I do if I’m out of school, work by myself, and my friends don’t seem to know any single women either? My various interests mostly get me acquainted with other men and their wives. If I avoid strangers, how will I ever meet anyone new?
I do not agree with this article at all. In fact, just yesterday, I sent a personal message to a friend of a friend of a friend (meaning I don’t know dude but I like his profile) asking to go to a Sushi buffet with me. Granted, I made it clear I wasn’t trying to get into his pants. (He said yes 🙂 And I have messaged 3 guys in the 4 or 5 days I have been on a dating site I found. There are other women out there like me. Let me tell you…perhaps you need to step… Read more »
Is easy to tell when a man doesn’t like a woman. He simply doesn’t acknowledge her. Reason I just wait for the guy to send the hint. A smile, a hello and simple conversation. Men aren’t like us women who just talk to any men for any particular reason. Men only talk to the women they feel attracted to. so if a man is not talking to me, he is not interested. Is that simple, why be a pest?
I talk to a lot of women I have no interest in ever being with. I can still be their friend…
yes Archy ,and so do many men. I disagree with Luzy here that say men only talk to women they are attracted to. But online dating sites show our photo,and looks seems to be important. I am not sure a man will take contact with women on datingsites unless he is attracted to her as a woman. Yesterday I saw a mans profile on my pen pal friendship seeking site: His photo was perfect.He had leaned his face back on a sofa,a coach, and looked totally relaxed. He smiled a warm smile and wrote he looked for true love. Maybe… Read more »
Ummm … when I was younger and shyer, I would ignore a women EXPLICITLY if I was attracted to her for fear of fucking up, not because I “wasn’t interested” or she was “beneath me”. Don’t presume to understand or speak for a sex or gender that you’ve never actually been.
Books like Men are from Mars etc and date coaches TELL women to not make the first move, coz men like to hunt. Perhaps it’s time to get real and change some of these ‘rules’ so we can get happy 🙂 BTW I am one of the rare ones that asks men that I like, on dates.
I’m a woman, I don’t do monogamy, I ask guys out all the time. I can’t speak to online dating since I have no experience with that, so my comments are directed to in-person interactions. Since pretty much college every guy I have been with – I approached, I told them I was attracted to them before they said it to me, I initiated and maintained the boundaries/safer sex/needs discussion, I took them home, I initiated sex. Including my current boyfriend – I asked for his number the second time I met him, I asked him if he wanted to… Read more »
I initiate conversation regularly online and in-person with men and so far at bat there was only one guy who I made it to asking for his contact info. Why? Because pretty much every guy either doesn’t respond – even on those sites where it doesn’t let you know that there’s interest unless you mutually like each other. And in-person they hardly make an effort to engage and if they do it’s for a short period and then they’re off to the next. Online, if they do respond, even if you’re engaged in a lively conversation, they stop responding after… Read more »
@ Natalie It’s funny how you could go through this entire complaint, be frustrated to the point that you’d stop asking men out, tell people what a great catch you’d be (I’m not arguing, but that’s the whole point), and then wonder why guys don’t ask you out. Did you ever think of why a guy should ask out a woman so out of his league that he doesn’t have a shot (in his mind)? Could he not have figured out how intelligent you were in those first couple messages and then felt you wouldn’t be sufficiently attracted to him?… Read more »
Why should a woman ask a complete strange out ?
Well, why should a man?
No one should. no one is obligated to do so. and nothing will happen if you don’t.
bcy what I mean is that for me it feels weird to ask out a total stranger. In my contry men do not walk up to strangers and ask them out,so why should women? Maybe people in the US do,so here we have cultural differences. But if a woman goes on datingsite ,yes she has the chance to meet men she like and it is recomended to meet fast to see if there if the attraction you feel online still are there if you meet face to face. But I guess in online dating many women are more comfortable with… Read more »
Umm men do it all the time and none of us would be here today if it wasnt for our fathers having the courage to talk to girls ie out mothers
🙂
You have not met my mother , and my grandmother!
Btw. I agree with john. Fear seems to be the most likely reason for women as well as men moving forward. The fear of rejection is probably the worst. Quick story. I became best friends with a lady shortly after my divorce. It was also apparent that she liked me that way more than i did her. Romantically she wasn’t my type and being honest in as a non hurtful way as i could said so. She tjanked me and we moved on remaining best friends. 5 years layer she became my wife and love her beyond my wildest dreams.… Read more »
@ mark
I have a friend who’s very smooth with the ladies. He dated multiple women. Most were goregeous. The remainder were “just” pretty. A woman asked him out. She wasn’t conventionally attractive. Not the person he was looking for, but she was the only woman to have asked him out. It was novel so he agreed. He fell in love with her kindness and they’re now married.
First of all, it’s a sweet little story but it’s not going to be the case for the majority of “unconventionally attractive” women out there. So trying to encourage women on the basis of your one friend’s experience, is silly. Most women understand that most men ask them out when they are attracted to them and don’t when they aren’t. So there isn’t much reason to pursue a guy who isn’t attracted to you. Secondly, a big reason why the message isn’t as impactful in this story is because you clearly feel the need to validate his worth as a… Read more »
@ Erin “Most women understand that most men ask them out when they are attracted to them and don’t when they aren’t. So there isn’t much reason to pursue a guy who isn’t attracted to you.” I’m not sure how it is in your world, but surprisingly, many of the people I’ve met who are either married or dating wouldn’t even be classified as a 6. Very few of the 7 billion or so people on Earth would count as gorgeous so continue to disparage men that seems to assuage what ever demons you have. Fact of the matter is… Read more »
How in the world am I “disparaging” men? In the world I live in, I don’t rate other human beings on sliding scales of 1-10 as if I’m the all powerful arbitrator in who gets to dole out numbers of their worth. I am not saying you shouldn’t be attracted to your partner, you should. But there is a big difference between this and the level of entitlement I see a lot of men display in regards to women’s looks. If you think being honest about this is a way to “disparage” men, then we have a long way to… Read more »
While your observation is anecdotal i do believe you’re correct. We don’t need science to tell the result but we do need science to tell us why. I personally think that men and women, what it means to be a man or a woman to the individual is in a complete state of flux today. We’re all pioneers on a new frontier. We don’t know what to expect as we roll our wagon along hoping for the best. Women at least have some support from the feminist movement dating realistically from the 1920’s. While the sufferagettes of earlier had some… Read more »
Also true of women in their 50’s where the raito in the dating pool is 2 women for every man.
Half the men my age are chasing much younger women.
The only exception was a woman I told I was not ready to date and she suggested just meeting for dinner.
Robert you forget that lot and lots of younger men like women older than themselves so the dating pool for women 50+ is not like you describe, well maybe in your circles but this is not a general rule .
Great story! Sounds like too many women are still old fashion when it comes to dating.
I would not so much call it old-fashioned as lazy. They do it because they can get away with it. Men would do the same if we could, but we can’t. The ancient Roman author Ovid in his book on dating, the Ars amatoria once wrote that if all men agreed to stop pursuing women, the women would start taking over that job; but that though delightful a fantasy, this would never happen because there would always be strikebreakers among the men. That was true 2000 years ago and is still true today. Neither am I optimistic for the next… Read more »
@ G
Once I overheard a woman complaining to her friend that she was throwing herself at me and I didn’t make a move to ask her out. Instead of sending out a bunch of signals,, she could have asked me. I wouldn’t have accepted and maybe that’s the problem. Fear of rejection. Signal sending is probably their idea of being proactive and it gets them off the hook for paying for a date it seems.