A young man can’t take the first step toward long-term love, getting a date, because he can’t separate sexual attraction from objectification.
Editor’s note: This essay does not appear to be about marriage, but only at first glance. Curt Moyer’s introspection here is essentially about his desire for lasting long-term love, of the initial, often confusing spark. It is an example of the Marriage section’s openness toward the stages of long-term romance, not merely the toil or celebration of the time we find ourselves married (or divorced). We encourage more submissions of this variety.
I was raised by a single-mother. She raised me to not objectify women. I remember countless times watching television or films she’d note that a blonde character with large breasts was an “unrealistic portrayal of women”. She was attempting to illustrate how women can be beautiful and not conform to societal notions of what is beautiful.
But one thing my mother also taught me was the importance of not making a decision just because you need a partner in life. For a long time she dated men who had questionable morals, generally “bad boy” types. She was struggling as a single parent, and she wanted a supportive family structure to raise me. These elements lead to a lot of bad decisions and helped reinforce my current values and convictions.
I made plenty of questionable, impulsive decisions myself. From my teenage years into college, I drank alcohol, did inhalants, drank Robitussin, took hallucinogens, and smoked weed. I hated myself and believed I wasn’t worthy of a relationship. I didn’t even lose my virginity until college. For the longest time I wondered: What is wrong with me?
I quit doing all drugs—except alcohol—when I was twenty because I had developed panic disorder and crippling depression. I have worked on these problems, first with therapy and medicine, and then on my own. I am much better than I used to be, but I am still far from well-adjusted.
The problem of What is wrong with me? still lingers. I realize the truth: there isn’t anything horribly wrong with me at all. Even if there were, there is also something wrong with the world. And while this might seem like a cop-out, it isn’t—not completely.
The way we negotiate relationships, particularly sexual ones, is troubling to me. I am rather average-looking, a far cry from Casanova, but I haven’t had sex in five years and haven’t been in a relationship in six. Am I asexual? Doubtful. My peers see this as weird or strange, and I would argue it certainly isn’t “normal” behavior. I have my justifications.
For example, I cannot hit on a girl without feeling sleazy. Conscious of feminism, I know females get hit on quite a bit; it has to be quite annoying to walk around with the constant, unwanted anticipation of being hit on. More importantly, I feel I cannot hit on a girl because I must objectify her, if even in a minute degree. And I certainly don’t want to send the wrong signal. Being a guy, particularly one so impassioned, I constantly get misread as only wanting sex. And this is simply not true. I’ve made a conscious choice, a moral decision, to not use people for their sex organs, and to value a woman as a person before I even think about sex. Yet somehow, people are moving in and out of relationships all around me while I stay put.
This is what I am referring to when I say there is something wrong with the world. There seems to be no point of moral conflict for a ‘normal’ person; people hook up and go about their business like nothing happened, all the time. But I am an “all or nothing” guy, with a desire to have sex mean something. I’ve had one-night stands and I find them completely taxing for multiple reasons: I’m not into the act itself because I have no emotional connection with the female (and the sex suffers for both parties); I don’t like having an ethical crisis after we go our separate ways; and I am very conscious of the risk of contracting an STI.
See, for me, it doesn’t matter if there is a mutuality between the two parties. We are people not robots. We have emotional responses even if we try to divorce ourselves from them.
The way courting and pursuing sexual relationships is set up is disheartening. I’ve heard it described as constantly “trying people out” until you stumble upon the right one. This seems too morally reprehensible. People should not be treated as doormats to sexual goals, but as people (this is basic Kantian “means to an end” ethics).
And so am I supposed to be single the rest of my life because of a moral conundrum? The attitude I currently have is preventing my getting a date or having a sexual relationship with a woman. Am I to change my attitude? Then how do I reconcile my morality? Through mutuality? Do I just turn it off? Is there something I’m missing? What, finally, is wrong with me?
Photo by yinghai
About Curt Moyer
Maybe all you need to do is reframe it. If hitting on girls makes you feel sleazy, then don’t hit on girls. By that I just mean, don’t tell yourself you are now about to make a hit. Just be your natural self, interested in her natural self. If you are able to walk up to a male in a social situation and make conversation,I doubt you think of it as hitting on that man. You probably think you are being social, or neighborly, or congenial…sharing the human condition. Do the same with women and I think it will fall into place for you. I think you have gotten yourself worked up over your social approach to a point where you are talking yourself out of it! It might take a while for this to feel comfortable, but that’s okay. Most growth is like that.
As far as “trying people on”…I think that’s just an expression people use that means getting to know them. It’s completely impossible to know a person from a single meeting; that knowledge takes time, and it goes in both directions. Either one of you can decide that you’re not interested in progressing the relationship further, hopefully before things get too serious. That’s all anybody really means by this; think of your friendships through the years; you weren’t using people by getting to know them, and it took lots of time and experiences together to feel like you really knew them.
I think it’s pretty clear that there are some cultural values that make it seem like love or women or both are commodities, with a buyer/seller/taker/giver mentality, and realistically it just isn’t a viable way of describing how emotional beings interact. I think if you just take a step back and relax into the ways you’ve handled yourself in other life relationships, you’ll find your way in dating. I would love an update sometime after you’ve had a chance to digest everyone’s advice and thoughts on the topic! All the best to you.
“If hitting on girls makes you feel sleazy, then don’t hit on girls.”
This.
There are ways of meeting people that don’t involve “hitting on them.” I’m not sure where you got the idea that the only options are to hit on girls or to be alone, but whoever taught you this conundrum was very, very wrong.
Being comfortable around members of the opposite sex is, I know, easier said than done. But since you seem resolved – admirably in my opinion – to save sex for serious relationships only, you can at least avoid the “neediness” pitfall that snared me and so many men when we were your age.
Find groups where you can socialize with women and men around things you’re interested in. You’ll meet lots of people, and there is always the possibility that one relationship may develop beyond friendship. And if it does… it NEED NOT BECOME SEXUAL if you’re not feeling it.
I think I can say with fair confidence that a lot of young women will be thrilled to meet a man who’s not just looking for sex.
I wish you all the luck in the world. I truly believe your “conundrum” is nothing of the sort. I wish I had your attitude back in the day.
“I cannot hit on girls without feeling sleazy…”
Did your mother make you feel this way when you were growing up? What was her growing up years like? Was she raised in a strict religious home? Was she ever molested or assaulted?
I feel similar and I think it’s from listening to the wrong feminists for so long, creep-shaming took it’s toll and women were painted so often as vulnerable that I, as a large tall man feel even more nervous around women because I don’t want them to feel nervous of my size. It’s like being told you’re a tiger walking near sheep over n over n over n over yet you’re a vegan tiger. I know quite a few guys who are very shy around women and are single. The ones with the who cares attitude seem to be doing fine though, those that will hit on a woman and probably won’t bat n eyelid if they made her uncomfy by hitting on her but will just move on to the next.
Okay, so you know who to blame. Congratulations! Is that helping you not feel nervous and shy, though? At all?
My advice to you is to spend time around as many different women as you possibly can. Not with the idea that they will become sexual partners, but just to become more comfortable around them. My sense is that you will begin to grok that – while there are UNDENIABLE differences between the sexes, in general – we are all just people who want the same things.
It IS, in my opinion, possible to approach someone of the opposite sex with something like “hey, I think you’re really cool and I have fun with you. Want to go to (event) with me at (time)?” Many people would find the straightforward approach refreshing.
Maybe the Golden Rule could be a useful guide? Presumably if a woman asked you out, you wouldn’t necessarily assume that she was objectifying you. You might actually welcome it. So, why not approach women the same way that you would like to be approached.
Women can be attracted to you without objectifying you. What does that look like?
Can they? What DOES that look like? I have no idea at all!
In all honesty, I have yet to have a woman (or any person) find me physically attractive free of objectification. Nor have I managed too with anyone else.
For example, an ex of mine used to find my shoulders muscles attractive. She would look at them, ask me to take my shirt off and flex, run her hands over them, etc. She enjoyed their physical form. I therefore tried to take very good care of them and added a specific shoulder component to my workouts to try and develop them further because I knew it would please her. So she enjoys a part of my body and I cater to that enjoyment. I’m not upset about the dynamic at all, it worked great for us. BUT, isn’t that still objectification? She felt attraction to a specific part of my body for it’s physical appearance.
It seems to me that ALL physical attraction is basically objectification. One is attracted to the observable shapes of someone else. If you find someone’s physique appealing, it’s because you enjoy the object that is their body.
How CAN you be attracted to someone without objectifying them?
Okay, so you know who to blame. Congratulations! Is that helping you not feel nervous and shy, though? At all?
It helped me quite a bit. No need to stay around the source of bad mojo.
Yep, same for me. It’s also a stark warning for feminist mothers in particular to ensure their activism does not harm their male children, I don’t think the majority do but there are cases and even posts on this website from men who grew up with feminism and it has harmed their sexuality immensely. I learned to avoid the more radical of feminists and I stick mainly to talking to egalitarian feminists vs gynocentric ones.
Hi Curt, I’m a woman but I feel I can relate to your story. I also suffered from severe depression for many years, and struggled with relationships. During one part of my life, I didn’t have sex for 5 years. Like you, I had conflicts about pursuing relationships in order to get my needs met. I thought I didn’t deserve to be with anyone if I had all these selfish needs.
I think what you have to understand is that your needs aren’t “bad”. You are a human being. Wanting to have sex with women does not make you a bad person. The women who you are interested in also have selfish, base needs! They aren’t any better than you. That doesn’t mean you have to have casual sex if that’s not right for you, but it sounds like your fear and dislike of even experiencing your sexual needs is holding you back from relationships.
As long as you treat people with respect, kindness and compassion and you won’t go wrong. Lust away, just treat people right.
“For example, I cannot hit on a girl without feeling sleazy. Conscious of feminism, I know females get hit on quite a bit; it has to be quite annoying to walk around with the constant, unwanted anticipation of being hit on. More importantly, I feel I cannot hit on a girl because I must objectify her, if even in a minute degree”
I feel similar, but not in objectifying but afraid I will annoy her and I never want to make someone feel uncomfortable. I find it a bit difficult to know when or where to hit on women, you read that some hate being talked to in public by men, some like it, some want to be hit on wherever, some don’t. My fear of making someone uncomfy is pretty high and probably way over the top. Logically I know I need to take risks, and to risk making someone uncomfortable in order to actually meet people. By Uncomfortable I mean ANY talk to a woman in public, not persistent creepy behaviour ( a no will send me on my way making me feel like I fucked up by making her uncomfy and annoyed at myself probably) but the uncomfortable feeling she may have if she’s been busy all day and doesn’t want to talk to someone. I do my best to read body language to avoid it but I’m still a bit shy about talking to women in public because of this reason. I guess I had it slammed into my head so much the message from creep-shaming that it’s made me nervous to saying hello to a woman in public.
Obvious behaviour like reading a book, listening to music indicate wanting to be left alone but what about at events whilst watching horse races for instance? Is it acceptable to approach unknown women? To me it feels incredibly awkward and I tend to stick to talking to friends of friends, or meeting people through hobbies but I have often wondered how much I am limiting myself by not striking up random conversations with people in public.
I always see women as humans as that is what they are to me, but I am so worried about never putting someone in an uncomfortable position like having to accept/reject a date that I am most likely shooting myself in the foot. Maybe I’ve read too many stories about women annoyed at men hitting on them or talking to them in public.
I have no interest n catcalling, hollering, etc, but simply meeting new people and hopefully a woman to fall in love with (maybe casual sex but still iffy on that), but this fear of mine is annoying. Do most women hate being approached in public, or is it mainly to do with HOW you approach women and the time/place?
My brother said a joke to me though that made me think, basically we talked about a woman I saw that was attractive and I said it’d be annoying for her to be hit on at work and he said the joke of she’s probably like “Why can’t I find a man in this town?”. Could it be that a lot of guys are now so shy and avoiding asking out women that women too are feeling the effects? That a bunch of men n women who want to be dating each other probably don’t get there because of this heightened sense of respecting personal boundary to the point that no one is taking the risk? Logically to me someone has to attempt to ask out another in order to date which risks stepping over their boundary if they are a stranger.
It’s actually led me partially to only hit on friends that I like in the hope that it avoids the whole stranger issue but even then that has it’s own problems if the friendship has progressed far enough where they don’t wanna risk ruining the friendship with dating. I kinda like the idea of the old dances my aunt talks about where they use to be sober, guys asked girls out but had their safety net of friends around as someone else has mentioned on here so the fear of rejection wasn’t as high. These days most of the events I see in my town usually have people drunk off their nut at night, or it’s daytime and for some reason I feel even more awkward with looking for a partner in the day.
Has anyone ever said this shit is very confusing? And Yes I am a very nervous person:P I definitely see the merits in highschools being taught how to court people because these days it feels like someone throwing your ass in the deep-end and I’m treading water here whilst others seem to be human fish and completely at ease.
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
And check out this:
http://nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/
Time for some easy pop psychology. (It’s free, and you get what you pay for.)
It sounds like the author is needlessly paralyzed by fear. On the surface, it seems to be fear of being a “bad man,” or fear of hurting a woman by approaching her in any kind of romantic or sexual way. I’m guessing that deep down there is an even deeper, more fundamental fear, maybe something about being afraid of his own sexuality.
I wonder if you’re afraid that somehow you will turn into one of those bad boys who hurt your mom. You are not those men. You are not her. And, you are not just her son. You are also yourself, a person with a sexuality, and sexuality (or asexuality) is not inherently bad.
Attraction is not objectification, but it’s totally understandable in modern-day discourse that a man would find it hard to distinguish the two. I’m not even sure myself how to separate them, so I tend to think of harmless objectification and harmful objectification.
What’s the worst-case scenario? You ask a woman out, she feels objectified and says no, and then you walk away. That’s not the end of the world. No one is going to throw you in jail for that, you won’t go to Hell for that, and if others think you have committed a gender crime for that, that’s their problem.
Just consider the possibility that your mom made some mistakes in teaching you what she did or in teaching you the way that she did. Remember that she is a human being, and she may be wrong. Or, what works as wisdom for her may not work as your own wisdom. She is not the voice of all women. Her voice is not your inner voice.
I’m thinking you need to get your mom out of the sex part of your brain. Otherwise, when you have sex she’ll be right there with you.
Thank-you! Though my mother didn’t cause the harm, I find some of this applicable to me.
I’m sorry but you have been harmed by your mothers resentment of men and this resentment has poisoned your sexuality because the moral structure she built in you mind contradicts nature as the physical representation of truth.
The feeling below the thinking that you label as objectification is your sexuality, which is the desire to use a womans body for your pleasure. This is normal and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or seriously confused about human sexuality.
You will do more harm to women hiding that you want to use their bodies for pleasure than you will by admitting it.
Objectification is not the problem, deception is.
I was heartened to read your essay. I also felt sad, as you seem quite misguided.
I am a single mother of three girls, so I have both the fear for them and how men may treat them as well as fear for myself in my relationships. I know my girls learn something – be it good or bad – from the way I live my life and the company I choose to keep. They see how the men in my life have treated me and I know they make judgments – about me and those men and men in general. I think they know I am human and some times I will make mistakes, even at my age (50).
Women, like men, want to know they are smart and funny and cute/pretty/beautiful AND desired. In fact, I can think of nothing more sexually freeing than knowing the man I choose to be with finds me very sexually attractive. There is so much that goes into the final outcome of sex – intellectual attraction, the funny factor, emotional attraction and physical attraction to name a few obvious ones. I think there are plenty of way to show a woman you find in her all those things without making her want to punch you or turn and run away.
What is important to remember, and what I hope my children know, is that we all have sexual desires. It is normal and healthy and no one should feel ashamed. We are animals after all and genetically we are wired to seek out and mate to further the species. And sexual desire is all part of that hard wiring. There is nothing sinful about desire.
But, it is also important to understand that not everyone is the same and not everyone wants the same things out of sex. Some people really like the casual thing, hooking up and not having to look back. Some find that immoral. There are those who have spent time in their lives when they have only wanted casual sex, but later decided they wanted emotional intimacy and commitment. Others cannot follow through and have truly fulfilling sex unless there is an emotional connection. And there are varying places in between. All you can really hope for is to find someone who shares your view of the world, who wants what you want out of sexual connection.
For me, I have never wanted to engage in casual sex and I have often wondered if there is something wrong with me, as I have endured a lot of teasing from my peers about the fact that there was never a time when I was hooking up with random men and going home with them to have my way. I have had more than my fair share of opportunities to do the casual hook-up thing. I have worried that I was frigid or boring or simply not fun. And I have friends who have probably wondered the same thing. What my life experience has taught me is that nothing could be further from the truth. I am just someone who needs the emotional connection and intimacy of a stable committed relationship in order to be able to have a fulfilling and free sexual life. It does not make me archaic or boring or frigid. It makes me human.
I have had the great privilege to know a man who is smart and funny and good looking and highly sexualized who never wanted to have sex until he felt he was emotionally ready to handle sex. He was sexually curious and strongly attracted to girls throughout his adolescence, but he wanted to be sure he was ready. When he finally felt ready (at 19/20 years old) he did not know any young women he wanted to connect with emotionally as well as sexually and he felt it was important to have that emotional intimacy as well as mutual sexual desire. He certainly endured some questions about his sexuality from women who wanted to sleep with him and who may have been hot/sexy, but they were not women with whom he felt an emotional connection. I think their reaction to his ultimate disinterest is a statement on our society and how we view sexuality…if you are a man and you don’t pursue sex when you could easily get it then you must be gay or frigid or asexual. But that is not fair. As I said, not everyone wants the same things out of sex and if you look for more than just a hook up it does not mean you are boring or vanilla
This same man once said to me, “Just because we are animals with normal animalistic urges does not mean we cannot control our physical desires. I may see a woman and find her sexy and wonder what it would be like to have sex with her, but that does not mean I act on every impulse. We have the ability to reason and for me it comes down to a choice…either I make the choice to sleep with everyone I find sexy or I make the choice to wait until I find someone I can connect with on an emotional level.” When he did find that someone finally, he felt it was well worth the wait.
I am sorry your mom was unable to teach you to respect women AND to acknowledge their physical attractiveness. I am sure she did the best she could. That’s all any of us can do. At some point you will meet someone who looks at the world the way you do. She will understand you. Just try not to let your fear of failure (being seeing an a creep who objectifies women) keep you from reaching out to someone when you feel a connection to them AND an attraction to them. Make sure you find ways to share your interest and admiration without being lewd or abrasive.
There’s only one way to court someone without objectification. That’s to get to know her first as a human being before considering courting her. Unfortunately, this is labelled the Nice Guy ™ way, and its practitioners are labelled as dishonest.
Isn’t this kind of a Catch-22? I mean, why go about courting someone in the first place if you’re not attracted to her? Isn’t being attracted to her one of the main reasons you want to get to know her better in the first place?
Wellokaythen – The pickup artist instructors are saying that you need to practice ,practice and practice, so that you get better at approaching, not worrying about whose time you are wasting. It is a whole new way to think and act.
I wouldn’t label practitioners of Nice Guy “dishonest.” But I would label them “inept” and possibly “virgin.”
I have a question for anyone who claims they intend never to objectify women, in any sense, (for example, the author):
What do you view/imagine when you masturbate? Beautiful landscapes? Fresh produce? Colorful tile? Do you just stare at your own penis? Do you not masturbate at all?
Is it even possible that you’re like everyone else, except that somehow when it comes to dating you’re Purtanical?