A young man can’t take the first step toward long-term love, getting a date, because he can’t separate sexual attraction from objectification.
Editor’s note: This essay does not appear to be about marriage, but only at first glance. Curt Moyer’s introspection here is essentially about his desire for lasting long-term love, of the initial, often confusing spark. It is an example of the Marriage section’s openness toward the stages of long-term romance, not merely the toil or celebration of the time we find ourselves married (or divorced). We encourage more submissions of this variety.
I was raised by a single-mother. She raised me to not objectify women. I remember countless times watching television or films she’d note that a blonde character with large breasts was an “unrealistic portrayal of women”. She was attempting to illustrate how women can be beautiful and not conform to societal notions of what is beautiful.
But one thing my mother also taught me was the importance of not making a decision just because you need a partner in life. For a long time she dated men who had questionable morals, generally “bad boy” types. She was struggling as a single parent, and she wanted a supportive family structure to raise me. These elements lead to a lot of bad decisions and helped reinforce my current values and convictions.
I made plenty of questionable, impulsive decisions myself. From my teenage years into college, I drank alcohol, did inhalants, drank Robitussin, took hallucinogens, and smoked weed. I hated myself and believed I wasn’t worthy of a relationship. I didn’t even lose my virginity until college. For the longest time I wondered: What is wrong with me?
I quit doing all drugs—except alcohol—when I was twenty because I had developed panic disorder and crippling depression. I have worked on these problems, first with therapy and medicine, and then on my own. I am much better than I used to be, but I am still far from well-adjusted.
The problem of What is wrong with me? still lingers. I realize the truth: there isn’t anything horribly wrong with me at all. Even if there were, there is also something wrong with the world. And while this might seem like a cop-out, it isn’t—not completely.
The way we negotiate relationships, particularly sexual ones, is troubling to me. I am rather average-looking, a far cry from Casanova, but I haven’t had sex in five years and haven’t been in a relationship in six. Am I asexual? Doubtful. My peers see this as weird or strange, and I would argue it certainly isn’t “normal” behavior. I have my justifications.
For example, I cannot hit on a girl without feeling sleazy. Conscious of feminism, I know females get hit on quite a bit; it has to be quite annoying to walk around with the constant, unwanted anticipation of being hit on. More importantly, I feel I cannot hit on a girl because I must objectify her, if even in a minute degree. And I certainly don’t want to send the wrong signal. Being a guy, particularly one so impassioned, I constantly get misread as only wanting sex. And this is simply not true. I’ve made a conscious choice, a moral decision, to not use people for their sex organs, and to value a woman as a person before I even think about sex. Yet somehow, people are moving in and out of relationships all around me while I stay put.
This is what I am referring to when I say there is something wrong with the world. There seems to be no point of moral conflict for a ‘normal’ person; people hook up and go about their business like nothing happened, all the time. But I am an “all or nothing” guy, with a desire to have sex mean something. I’ve had one-night stands and I find them completely taxing for multiple reasons: I’m not into the act itself because I have no emotional connection with the female (and the sex suffers for both parties); I don’t like having an ethical crisis after we go our separate ways; and I am very conscious of the risk of contracting an STI.
See, for me, it doesn’t matter if there is a mutuality between the two parties. We are people not robots. We have emotional responses even if we try to divorce ourselves from them.
The way courting and pursuing sexual relationships is set up is disheartening. I’ve heard it described as constantly “trying people out” until you stumble upon the right one. This seems too morally reprehensible. People should not be treated as doormats to sexual goals, but as people (this is basic Kantian “means to an end” ethics).
And so am I supposed to be single the rest of my life because of a moral conundrum? The attitude I currently have is preventing my getting a date or having a sexual relationship with a woman. Am I to change my attitude? Then how do I reconcile my morality? Through mutuality? Do I just turn it off? Is there something I’m missing? What, finally, is wrong with me?
Photo by yinghai
There’s nothing wrong with you my lovely, you’re simply trailblazing… Heartening to read an article from a shared perspective. Thank you 🙂
Showing interest is not objectifying women, being caught up in a conundrum about how unfair it is to persue women is objectifying. This is taking the equality out of courting.
Do some reading on Men Going Their Own Way, or MGTOW. Also look up Zeta Masculinity. You don’t have to forfeit the game, but you don’t have to play it by someone else’s rules either.
Yeah, I fear that my teen son will end up doing similar mental gymnastics some day.
Here’s the thing, being attracted to someone isn’t objectifying them. Having chemistry, being excited to be in their company, is a good thing. Sex is a good thing! Enjoying each other through via consensual sex is okay, more than okay.
Look at a someone to fulfill your needs, whatever those needs are, is objectification. What you’ve described doesn’t sound at all like that.
The fact that you think about women and sex in such a healthy way give me hope. Thank you for sharing.
One thing I’ve noticed over the years (especially in job interviews) is that people pick up on your demeanor and believe whatever superficial messages it sends. So, if you don’t believe you are a worthwhile person, other people will see it and many of them will believe that you believe you are less valuable because you actually are less valuable. This is completely false but it’s probably contributing to your difficulty getting a girl. Being painfully aware of objectification can be very crippling, I feel it when I’m not trying to be a bigot around other marginalized groups and I… Read more »
I think Celeste hit the nail on the head. Just don’t hit on women. Talk to them. Be curious about them. Ask questions. Respond to them. I went on a bit of a celibate streak for similar reasons. What I found is that if you can approach a conversation with a woman without any sexual energy attached to it, the probability of a real connection goes way up! When you start finding real connections with people, attraction will flourish and a relationship is right around the corner from there. So keep your head up. Look people in the eye when… Read more »
I am a feminist and I think sex-negative feminism is the worst thing that happened to human sexuality since religion!
We are all sexual individuals. It’s just part of us! But just because you can appreciate someone’s looks, does not mean you can’t appreciate their brains and the rest! Go talk to those women, you have the right to do that and they might like you!
Right on Curt! Someone who shares my same morals. I often laugh that I will never have a relationship or sex again because of these morals. It’s hard for a gal to find an upstanding guy that wants to find out first if there’s a connection, let alone sex. I also won’t have sex until an STD test is shared (mutually). I decided to take down my match account because all it attracted were horney narcissits. One went as far as to grab my boob on the second date! HELLO! The art of courting is all but dead.
I have a question for anyone who claims they intend never to objectify women, in any sense, (for example, the author):
What do you view/imagine when you masturbate? Beautiful landscapes? Fresh produce? Colorful tile? Do you just stare at your own penis? Do you not masturbate at all?
Is it even possible that you’re like everyone else, except that somehow when it comes to dating you’re Purtanical?
There’s only one way to court someone without objectification. That’s to get to know her first as a human being before considering courting her. Unfortunately, this is labelled the Nice Guy ™ way, and its practitioners are labelled as dishonest.
Isn’t this kind of a Catch-22? I mean, why go about courting someone in the first place if you’re not attracted to her? Isn’t being attracted to her one of the main reasons you want to get to know her better in the first place?
Wellokaythen – The pickup artist instructors are saying that you need to practice ,practice and practice, so that you get better at approaching, not worrying about whose time you are wasting. It is a whole new way to think and act.
I wouldn’t label practitioners of Nice Guy “dishonest.” But I would label them “inept” and possibly “virgin.”
I was heartened to read your essay. I also felt sad, as you seem quite misguided. I am a single mother of three girls, so I have both the fear for them and how men may treat them as well as fear for myself in my relationships. I know my girls learn something – be it good or bad – from the way I live my life and the company I choose to keep. They see how the men in my life have treated me and I know they make judgments – about me and those men and men in… Read more »
I’m sorry but you have been harmed by your mothers resentment of men and this resentment has poisoned your sexuality because the moral structure she built in you mind contradicts nature as the physical representation of truth. The feeling below the thinking that you label as objectification is your sexuality, which is the desire to use a womans body for your pleasure. This is normal and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or seriously confused about human sexuality. You will do more harm to women hiding that you want to use their bodies for pleasure than you will by… Read more »
there is a learning curve. and with as much necessary rape dialogue going on, any physical attraction can be guilt producing for a man. to tell a woman she is very attractive is different than telling her how HOT she is. it really is a matter of being able to express interest in a classy well received manner. rejection is risk worth taking when it comes to human relationships. (OK, I’m ready for my wolfish beat down. as tom petty says “go ahead and give it to me.)
that was an amazing response. I love to hear such truth deeply rooted in our feelings.
Time for some easy pop psychology. (It’s free, and you get what you pay for.) It sounds like the author is needlessly paralyzed by fear. On the surface, it seems to be fear of being a “bad man,” or fear of hurting a woman by approaching her in any kind of romantic or sexual way. I’m guessing that deep down there is an even deeper, more fundamental fear, maybe something about being afraid of his own sexuality. I wonder if you’re afraid that somehow you will turn into one of those bad boys who hurt your mom. You are not… Read more »
Thank-you! Though my mother didn’t cause the harm, I find some of this applicable to me.
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
And check out this:
http://nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/
“For example, I cannot hit on a girl without feeling sleazy. Conscious of feminism, I know females get hit on quite a bit; it has to be quite annoying to walk around with the constant, unwanted anticipation of being hit on. More importantly, I feel I cannot hit on a girl because I must objectify her, if even in a minute degree” I feel similar, but not in objectifying but afraid I will annoy her and I never want to make someone feel uncomfortable. I find it a bit difficult to know when or where to hit on women, you… Read more »
Hi Curt, I’m a woman but I feel I can relate to your story. I also suffered from severe depression for many years, and struggled with relationships. During one part of my life, I didn’t have sex for 5 years. Like you, I had conflicts about pursuing relationships in order to get my needs met. I thought I didn’t deserve to be with anyone if I had all these selfish needs. I think what you have to understand is that your needs aren’t “bad”. You are a human being. Wanting to have sex with women does not make you a… Read more »
“I cannot hit on girls without feeling sleazy…”
Did your mother make you feel this way when you were growing up? What was her growing up years like? Was she raised in a strict religious home? Was she ever molested or assaulted?
I feel similar and I think it’s from listening to the wrong feminists for so long, creep-shaming took it’s toll and women were painted so often as vulnerable that I, as a large tall man feel even more nervous around women because I don’t want them to feel nervous of my size. It’s like being told you’re a tiger walking near sheep over n over n over n over yet you’re a vegan tiger. I know quite a few guys who are very shy around women and are single. The ones with the who cares attitude seem to be doing… Read more »
Okay, so you know who to blame. Congratulations! Is that helping you not feel nervous and shy, though? At all? My advice to you is to spend time around as many different women as you possibly can. Not with the idea that they will become sexual partners, but just to become more comfortable around them. My sense is that you will begin to grok that – while there are UNDENIABLE differences between the sexes, in general – we are all just people who want the same things. It IS, in my opinion, possible to approach someone of the opposite sex… Read more »
Maybe the Golden Rule could be a useful guide? Presumably if a woman asked you out, you wouldn’t necessarily assume that she was objectifying you. You might actually welcome it. So, why not approach women the same way that you would like to be approached.
Women can be attracted to you without objectifying you. What does that look like?
Can they? What DOES that look like? I have no idea at all! In all honesty, I have yet to have a woman (or any person) find me physically attractive free of objectification. Nor have I managed too with anyone else. For example, an ex of mine used to find my shoulders muscles attractive. She would look at them, ask me to take my shirt off and flex, run her hands over them, etc. She enjoyed their physical form. I therefore tried to take very good care of them and added a specific shoulder component to my workouts to try… Read more »
Being an object of someone’s sexual attraction is perfectly fine. Almost all of us will be at some point, and almost all of us want to be. It’s trouble to the extent that you don’t consider the other person a subject as well. If all you see of him/her is an object, that’s bad. But there’s no real conflict in liking someone’s legs/pecs/what-have-you and liking him/her too. If you’ve come around to the idea that sexual attraction is the opposite of emotional connection (and there are plenty of messages to that effect around – especially the “guys just want sex”… Read more »
Okay, so you know who to blame. Congratulations! Is that helping you not feel nervous and shy, though? At all?
It helped me quite a bit. No need to stay around the source of bad mojo.
Yep, same for me. It’s also a stark warning for feminist mothers in particular to ensure their activism does not harm their male children, I don’t think the majority do but there are cases and even posts on this website from men who grew up with feminism and it has harmed their sexuality immensely. I learned to avoid the more radical of feminists and I stick mainly to talking to egalitarian feminists vs gynocentric ones.
Maybe all you need to do is reframe it. If hitting on girls makes you feel sleazy, then don’t hit on girls. By that I just mean, don’t tell yourself you are now about to make a hit. Just be your natural self, interested in her natural self. If you are able to walk up to a male in a social situation and make conversation,I doubt you think of it as hitting on that man. You probably think you are being social, or neighborly, or congenial…sharing the human condition. Do the same with women and I think it will fall… Read more »
“If hitting on girls makes you feel sleazy, then don’t hit on girls.” This. There are ways of meeting people that don’t involve “hitting on them.” I’m not sure where you got the idea that the only options are to hit on girls or to be alone, but whoever taught you this conundrum was very, very wrong. Being comfortable around members of the opposite sex is, I know, easier said than done. But since you seem resolved – admirably in my opinion – to save sex for serious relationships only, you can at least avoid the “neediness” pitfall that snared… Read more »
To start, it might be helpful to alter your language to reflect the humanity of women. Instead of ever calling women “females”, call them women, ladies, gals… Female is not reflexive of their humanity. Goats and cows can be female, too. “Woman”, “lady”, or “gal” implies their humanity.
While I was courting my wife, I never hit on her or objectified her. I had to much respect for her. I found her not only physically beautiful but also found her mind beautiful as well. We went out on dates and had a lot of fun without any complications. We’ve been married for 12 years now. You don’t have to listen to the world and have sex within a month of dating. If you find “The One” then you’ll be doing it for the rest of your life so don’t be in a hurry there. Also, I don’t believe… Read more »
Curt, you got a lot of good qualities going on that any woman would be lucky to experience. I loved your piece. It’s very open and intelligent. Don’t assume that all us women are being hit on all the time. Certain females very well may get hit on all the time, but a lot of us regular girls aren’t. Some of us would love for a nice man to talk to us in public. I for one prefer this over internet dating. But I never had many men come up to me and hit on me in real life. But… Read more »
The way courting and pursuing sexual relationships is set up is disheartening. I’ve heard it described as constantly “trying people out” until you stumble upon the right one. This seems too morally reprehensible. People should not be treated as doormats to sexual goals, but as people (this is basic Kantian “means to an end” ethics). But for all the talk of “treat women like people” that is just what most people are doing they seeking companionship and as move in and out of relationships throughout their lives they are doing so on the premise of finding “the one”. Well “the… Read more »
I’m right there with you, man. I was the only boy in my generation in my family (out of like, thirteen cousins). I grew up with no dad around and two older sisters. I started having trouble with this young. I’m 26 and it hasn’t gotten too much easier (like I imagined at 20). I’ve gotten more comfortable with flirting, but I almost never initiate it outside private social settings (parties or gatherings). This narrows my field to the people my friends bring around, and the occasional woman willing to take the initiative. My female friends tell me women are… Read more »
Thank you all for your comments. They have all been incredibly informative. I hope to start working on another article for GMP soon!
My bottom line? If you see human beings as full human beings (that is you know that that hot woman/man drinking coffee has a mind, a heart, hobbies etc) and you’d like to know some of those things about that person even if for a short time, and you as a suitor are relatively honest, transparent, and kind in your actions, you are probably not objectifying anyone. At least not in the academic sense. If you are seeing human beings as pawns or objects to be used for your own benefit (for sex or work or money) and you don’t… Read more »
“If you see human beings as full human beings (that is you know that that hot woman/man drinking coffee has a mind, a heart, hobbies etc) and you’d like to know some of those things about that person even if for a short time, and you as a suitor are relatively honest, transparent, and kind in your actions, you are probably not objectifying anyone.”
Yes. This.
Yes. I was just noticing this, too. It could be that the author, ironically, is not fully conceiving of women as human beings. I don’t mean he sees them as less than human, but maybe more than human, practically divine, sexually pure, unsullied, needing protection from the evil that men conceive in their hearts and minds. Hard to describe without a really convoluted metaphor: a white knight who paints himself into a corner looking at a madonna on a pedestal. Again, I’m thinking why not let the woman you’re attracted to decide for herself if she accepts your attention or… Read more »
Fundamentally you have to believe that it is possible for a woman to want sex with a particular man, i.e. you, and for that to be good for her. There is an ancient model of sexuality that suggests that the sexual act itself is harmful for a woman, (unless it’s her husband). Ironically a lot of feminist rhetoric feeds into this. Feminists of course have analyzed these old and problematic beliefs of sex thoroughly. However some feminists only focus on the ways that sex can harm women and they never acknowledge that sex, even sex with a man, can be… Read more »