no content

This content has been removed removed by the editors.

NOW TRENDING ON GMP TV

Super Villain or Not, Parenting Paranoia Ensues
The Garbage Man Explains Happiness
How To Not Suck At Dating

Premium Membership, The Good Men Project

About Anonymous

Comments

  1. I’m too much of a control freak to lead this lifestyle – I couldn’t mentally handle being so completely out of it, not in a million years. It sounds like a terribly dangerous way to live, and unlike other dangerous lifestyles (such as being a multi-pitch rock climber, a base jumper, an extreme skier, etc), the risks to it are something by definition you cannot use the full power of your rational conscious mind to minimize. A

  2. I read this with ambivalence…..
    I’ve been arguing for a bit, here on GMP, that you can’t complain about bumps & bruises if you play a contact sport.
    On some level- I have no moral qualms about you treating women who are playing the same games as you getting caught up in some rough stuff.
    I’m sure you would laugh it off if you came out of a blackout tied over a sawhorse pulling an infected train or with your dick in the pocket of your shirt & a length of 2×4 kicked up your colon.
    Party On!
    I’m a Drunk, Alcoholics go to Meetings.

  3. Jack Skellington says:

    This illustrates exactly why I do two of the thing I do in my life. When I drink, I try to keep it under the limit to where I would lose my mental faculties. Granted I have had “black-outs” 2-3 times but only when I was younger and learning that limit. Second, I have rarely have sex outside of a committed (if sometimes non-monogamous) relationship. I would lose my mind completely if some woman a slept with years earlier called me up and said “what happened was rape.”

  4. Richard Aubrey says:

    Not exactly sure why the “risk” is on the guy, here. He’s too loaded to know what’s going on and has to find out later. IOW, it didn’t bother him, hurt him physically, or get him pregnant. He just had fun.
    And he’s taking the risk?
    In addition to which, either he’d better buy or bring his own. Must spend a hell of a lot on booze.

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      Yeah, I agree mostly. Though he is a potential target for rape too. Men do get raped, by both men and women, and so it is a possibility.

      I think this author is so deep in the throes of addiction that he is bordering on sociopathic in his morality. That he recognizes he may physically and emotionally harm someone ANOTHER someone, is horrifying. But he is willing to do it because he is deep in his addiction.

      It can be likened to a drunk driver. They know they could kill people. They hear stories of children and other innocents who are killed with startling regularity by drunk drivers. But they need to drive to keep drinking, therefore they keep putting themselves in the position to keep killing innocent people.

      Both are disgusting, criminal behaviors and I pray that he seeks help and sees the deeply amoral territory into which he’s agreed to tread.

    • The risk is on him too.

      He points out that he had sex without remembering it. That means he was raped… He is right to point out that it is exactly the same as what his female rape victims went through.

      • Sabrina L. says:

        How is it the same, if the woman is at risk of pregnancy and a higher risk of being infected with an STI than a man? How is it the same if it is her bodily integrity that is breached, as opposed to entering someone else’s body and leaving a deposit? How is it the same in light of the average size and strength difference between men and women, not to mention the movement restricting clothing women are socialized to wear to parties? How is it the same in our current social construction of sex wherein a man conquers a woman when he breaks down her supposed reluctance to sex and is rewarded by the cheers of male friends for scoring, whereas a woman will much more likely bear the mark of a slut who puts out for anybody, accused of having no self respect, and if she complains aloud about the feeling of victimization, she’s told she’s playing the “victim card,” it was her own fault for putting herself in that position, even “crying rape?”

        For these reasons and many more, this does not seem like “the same” for me.

        How is it the same when he himself admits that it made him feel vaguely funny, whereas he has been explicitly told that at least one of his female rape victims was significantly emotionally harmed?

        • I think it’s because by the time anybody is blackout enough that they don’t know they’re having sex with someone, they’re at risk for far more then just rape. And yeah, while the context surrounding the incident shifts some depending on gender, the vulnerability remains the same.

          Also, as far as I define consent? It’s rape either way.

          Finally, you’re channelling some SERIOUS Dworkin with that first question, which, I’m going to point out, is both very heteronormative and also pretty unimaginative when it comes to sex.

        • BAWW BUT the women suffer worse! Like zomg they can get pregnants and stuff, men laugh it off like this guy and feel they still got lucky. Men don’t feel pain, or get harmed in rape right?

          “How is it the same if it is her bodily integrity that is breached, as opposed to entering someone else’s body and leaving a deposit?”
          This is pretty telling of your idea of body integrity. Let’s see, how about men not wanting to have sex with people they don’t wanna have sex with? How about there is a risk of STI, risk of damage to the penis or other organs that are used, there are issues with being drugged (some rapists may use viagra or “roofies” etc which can cause harm). There’s also the issue of the psychological damaged caused by rape. And another issue is that should that rapist have a child from the rape, he can be FORCED TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT FOR IT. The 18 years of financial risk alone from child support is a huge deal especially to people who are living in poverty, hell I myself would be crippled financially if I had to pay child support.

          Let’s see what else we can pull out of the hat, male victims of rape are often laughed at, told they are lucky, even police have laughed at them when reporting it. Male victims of rape are believed LESS THAN WOMEN and have huge amounts of stigma attached to it. Male victims of rape have less services available for them to deal with that trauma not to mention a lot of people don’t realize men can be raped by women and there is a severe lack of awareness campaigns for female rapist, male victims which is about 1 in 5 of rapes, yes women make up 20% of rapists in the U.S according to the CDC. Are 1 in 5 anti-rape campaign ads showing a female rapist or male victim? Can you actually find a single campaign showing a female rapist? The ONLY poster I have seen similar to that was made by an MRA.

          This pissing contest of who is harmed more is fucking stupid, both can be harmed FULLSTOP. There are women who don’t think much of their rape, there are men who are crippled by their rape. Maybe if you had bothered to study the pain n suffering of males even 1/4 of how much you obviously study female suffering you might realize that your argument is pretty insulting on a website for men at how you belittle male rape and quite frankly is pretty narrow-minded.

          By the way, the size difference that so many love to cling to in showing women are so much more vulnerable than men has a fatal flaw. Fight, Flight, FREEZE. Pay attention to the FREEEZE part. Some people in fear will FREEEZE UP and go along with whatever to try get it over with and not suffer more. There are men who are told point blank if they don’t have sex with a woman SHE will goto the police n claim he raped her, these are men who are probably bigger yet words alone can coerce and force them into being raped. Some get knives against their throat, some are abused when drunk, some are sober yet still freeze up because not everyone fights off rapists. There’s also the issue of men are not supposed to hit women which makes defending yourself from a woman even more hard because you can’t hit her, and are afraid of hurting her whilst trying to get out. Then you have various areas of the world where the law is probably biased against men, so even if he struggles free the bruises on her arms can be used against him to paint HIM as the bad guy, even just the THREAT of this makes ME fucking scared to ever defend myself against a woman. I am bigger than most people, male n female, yet that will work against me if my abuser is smaller as I have a chance to be seen as the aggressor simply because of my size and my gender.

          But hey, none of that matters because da womenz are da fragile beings and da men are super duper stronnggg and nothing hurts men right?

        • Sabrina,
          Dan addressed the rest, I’d just like to address your remarks that engaging in sex with somebody clearly too inebriated to give clear consent is rape whether it’s man on women, or women on man.

          Penetration may be the benchmark for legal rape in many states, but some on tgmp and in other spots recognize that since a vagina is made to be penetrated when a woman subjects another to penetrating her vagina against their will, or in the absence of clear consent that this is forced envelopment.

          If you look at the new CDC report (the full report not the summary) men are subjected to precisely as much rape as women are (in the last 12 month categories) when you accept rape definitions to include “forced to penetrate” or what some are calling forced envelopment.

          I agree that your argument is very heteronormative, but additionally you seem to want to try to convince people that PIV sex against the will (or in the absence of clear consent) only counts as rape in ONE gendered direction.

          How the same act can be rape when a woman doesn’t consent, but just sex when the man doesn’t consent is not fairness, even-handed, justice, or even what I have been taught the foundation of feminism is all about.

        • This is wrong on so many levels, I don’t know where to start.

          Firstly Male and female rapes are equally bad.

          Rape is bad because of: The violation of personal boundaries, the disrespect, and the fact that someone used your body for pleasure without your consent. It is bad because of the flashbacks that stop you from enjoying normal sex. It is bad because of the fear of intimacy that it creates. It is bad because you beat yourself up for failing to prevent it. It is bad because society treats you a a pariah, women are interested in you, until you let on how badly you have been violated, then they back off. It’s bad because it causes so much pain you turn to alcohol, drugs, work, danger, and even suicide to numb it.

          Yes rape is bad because of STDs, but a man’s chance of catching one is not zero, and it is in the same ballpark as woman’s chances.

          There is also a mass of rape culture that you are obviously unaware of. Men don’t need to dress slutty for people to assume they wanted it. They just have to be men. Society doesn’t teach men that we have sexual boundaries, so we don’t learn to enforce them. Society teaches us that erection equals consent; that is exactly the same as saying that orgasm equals consent, a physiological response to sexual stimulation.

          Men are not taught how to express emotional pain, a man saying that he feels funny is often in the same ballpark as a woman saying that she has been seriously emotionally harmed.

          Defining rape by penetration is a way of erasing male rape victims. You are a rape apologist.

          Men get raped it matters and we need to help male rape victims and stop male rape.

      • Mr Supertypo says:

        interesting….

      • Richard Aubrey says:

        Oh, yeah. Presumably, if this clown had had two fewer drinks, he wouldn’t have been “raped”. He’d have said, hell yeah.

      • not remembering sex =/ rape

        not consenting to sex, and someone penetrating you or forcing you to penetrate = rape.

  5. As a recovering addict it’s painful to read this story because I recognize the warped sort of thinking that allows someone to say, “I am doing something terrible. I am putting myself at risk too. But I don’t want to stop because the partying is still fun” Anonymous tells himself what all addicts tell themselves ”
    When you party, when you move in party circles, you accept certain tradeoffs.” We “accept” these tradeoffs because the only other option is to examine them and feel the consequences of our choices, and above all addicts want to avoid that. As a gay man who chose the party world for many years, I have been raped and am probably guilty of rape. What frightens me is that I don’t really know. Just some hazy memories I have to live with. I know that I have used drugs as bait to attract sexual partners, and have no idea where that falls the consent continnum, but pretty much figure it is at the low end. Anonymous, if you read this, ask for help. The party may still be fun, but I can guarantee it won’t be forever, and when it stops being fun it’s immediately awful. Stop now before you end up being court ordered into treatment so you can face the charges of rape that have been brought against you. You can choose to change.

  6. dan solomon says:

    Your analogy is wrong, dude. It’s not “Do people who’ve been in car accidents give up driving,” it’s “Do people who’ve caused accidents because they were driving drunk give up driving drunk?” The answer there is either “yes” or “we eventually force them to, because they present a danger to others.”

    You’re not “risking rape,” you’re risking comitting rape. There is a difference. That’s a risk that you obviously do seem comfortable with, and that’s not a huge surprise: the stakes are really low for someone like you — just a little bit of occasional shame when you’re “severely depressed.” Meanwhile, you get to benefit from that fuzzy grey-area you describe, where you can rest secure in the knowledge that there are huge swathes of society that will assure that you actually aren’t a rapist. It may not be convincing to you all of the time, but when the self-loathing gets to be too much, you can certainly visit those places for a while. It’s where much of the world lives.

    All you’re really doing here is declaring that there’s a certain amount of shame that you’re willing to live. Your shame is hardly the only consequence of your rapes, and the fact that it’s the only thing you’re concerned with here is really disturbing.

    • Plus 1 for this.

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      I am in 100% agreement with this.

      This man is a rapist who has decided his partying is more important than NOT raping women. And that is disturbing on so many levels.

      And as I said in my connected piece, he WRONGLY assumes that nearly everyone living this party lifestyle accepts rape as a part of being a black-out drunk/drug user. In reality, I’d guess very few people he would talk to would say, “Yes, I accept I may be raped because of my partying.”

      That’s just a fucked up thing he tells himself so that he doesn’t have to feel like a monster going out into the world to do more damage.

      • “You’re not “risking rape,” you’re risking comitting rape.”

        Isn’t he at risk of both, he stated pretty clearly he’s been raped. How do 3 women agreeing with Dan agree with he’s not risking rape WHEN HE WAS RAPED WHILST IN THE PARTY LIFESTYLE. 100% agreement?

        Dan, Joanna, Sabrina, Julie, open your eyes and read this
        “and times of “I don’t recall going to bed with her.”

        “There’s been at least one time I was informed, days after the fact, by multiple eyewitnesses, that I’d had sex with a girl. This came as news to me, and explained a couple messages I’d gotten from her, a girl I generally had no interest in getting involved with.”

        “It must be bad manners to admit to being a rapist and to also say one is a rape survivor,”

        No less than 3 times has he mentioned being raped, and yet you all agree that he is not at risk of rape??? WHAT THE FUCK? The guy may be a rapist but he’s also A RAPE VICTIM WHO IS AT RISK OF RAPE FROM THE VERY LIFESTYLE HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

        It’s pretty fucking sad that I have to point this out, but hey hate the rapist all you want but don’t misrepresent his friggen risk or position in life. The lifestyle he talks about is toxic to himself, to others, and quite frankly is one of the reasons I don’t get shitfaced because I don’t feel like passing out during sex n being raped n what not. It should be a big warning to everyone that 1, alcohol n sex is risky, and 2, EVEN RAPISTS GET RAPED.

      • It somewhat frustrates me that I’ve argued elsewhere (on the “Nice Guys commit rape too” comments) that most if not nearly all rapists are just sociopathic predators who don’t give a damn about anyone other than themselves, and rationalize away their crimes into something acceptable (“everyone else is at it too”, “she sent me signals, I really though I had consent, I didn’t know, etc, etc”). People say “no no no, it’s more complicated than that, people genuinely do get it wrong and misunderstand, they aren’t just predators, the culture is the problem”, and so on.

        A week later GMP publishes an article from a bona fide rapist, and lo and behold – it’s very obvious to everyone that he is just a predator rationalizing away his crimes who doesn’t care about anyone other than himself.

    • Yes. Very well said.

    • This. THIS. A thousand times this.

      “I’m a rapist, but hey, I’m willing to risk those women getting raped by me so I can have a good time”

      What the actual?

      • So the rapist, who was raped in this lifestyle, isn’t at risk of rape considering it’s already happened?

        • I don’t accept that simply not remembering sex, or regretting sex, necessarily means that you were raped. I have had sex I don’t remember whatsoever in my life, but I know it was not rape. I have had sex I regret in my life, but I know it was not rape. I don’t think this person feels violated, because he says that he does not feel violated. He does not feel like a rape survivor “whatever that’s supposed to feel like”.

          I think he is taking a pretty cheap shot, either trying to downplay the rapes he has committed, or garner sympathy of some kind.

          Do you think that not remembering or regretting sex means that you were absolutely raped?

  7. I’m glad Good Men published this piece, though it is difficult to read. I don’t think that I agree he is sociopathic, but I would certainly agree that he is an addict who at this point cannot stop himself and cannot comprehend that life lived sober is not necessarily grey and boring. I can think of a number of people I have known with addiction problems whose morality was pretty nonexistent in any meaningful way, though I’m sure they thought of themselves as decent people.

  8. He makes a point that people consent to things while drunk and high that they wouldn’t consent to sober.

    I think that a lot of this is because we live in a very judgemental and sex-negative culture. Alcohol gives us an excuse to be liberated.

    I have recently quit drinking, and I have found that being in a partying and drinking environment while sober lowers my inhibitions. I was flirting with a very tipsy woman from work, who I am not normally attracted to, and found myself thinking “Hey, a one night stand might be kinda fun.” I didn’t initiate as everyone knew that I was sober, and I wouldn’t get away with it. When she flirts with me in the lunch-room I’m not remotely interested… well maybe not completely uninterested, which is kind of my point.

    I think a lot of “alcohol lowers inhibitions” is really, alcohol gives me the permission to do stuff that I wanted to do anyway, but I couldn’t admit to wanting to do it. It’s almost the definition of being liberated.

    To be clear, this only applies to people who are tipsy, meaning: feeling the effects of alcohol, but still able to walk, talk, flirt, and understand what they are doing. If you’re passed out on the floor, and unable to string a sentence together, then obviously things are different.

    • To clarify “I wouldn’t get away with it”, what I mean is that I would be judged under our sex-negative culture, not I’d get away with rape, because it wouldn’t be rape. In my opinion she was sober enough to consent.

    • Alcohol makes me less self-conscious, I might dance naked somewhere drunk but I wouldn’t sober because of my insecurities. Alcohol is often called liquid courage and it may actually help calm me down in sex so maybe a drink or 2 would be beneficial as I am often nervous as hell but too much and I lose my ability to consent. When you’re crippled with anxiety like me a bit of alcohol can help although it usually just makes me more tired so I try to find other ways to overcome my issues.

  9. By your definition of rape – self-induced intoxication and then hooking up with people you but later regret the next day, then I think most men & women have been “raped” at a time in their life. You make it sound like making immature decisions when drunk or high is an anomaly.

    Having a random drunken one-night stand with a stranger equally intoxicated is only a big deal if you want it to be. I think this article is offensive to people who were genuinely taken advantage of.

    • As someone who’s both made regrettable decisions which drunk or high and accidentally gotten blackout and then woken up mid-intercourse, I’d just like to stress that they are very different experiences.

      On the one hand you have an inner monologue of “Oooh I shouldn’t be doing this but it feels so good and hmm whatever I’ll deal with it tomorrow”, and on the other it goes more like “Why am I lying in this room and why are the lights off and who is this person sitting on my stomach making these funny grunts and WAIT WHERE ARE MY CLOTHES” followed closely by “holyshit I’m literally throwing up”.

      On the one hand you usually know who the other person is who’s in bed with you, while on the other you have never seen them before in your life.

      I think your comment is offensive to people who HAVE been genuinely taken advantage of this way.

      • Can people blackout, as in stop recording memories but still be alert and look like they can fully consent? I don’t mean in your case, but I’ve been trying to find out if you can have alcohol only hit your memories where you can have sex, want sex at the time but you’re not storing those memories so you wake up the next day wondering wtf happened? I know anesthetics do this as I apparently had full conversations after surgery which I don’t remember anything of but those are pretty hard hitting drugs and it’d probably be obvious I wasn’t 100% with it.

        If so then there could be a lot of sex happening that people don’t remember and the other party could have had no idea that they were with someone who’s blacked out? I hope it doesn’t work like that and there are clear indications because I’d hate to be appearing to be consensual when I can’t, or be with someone in that state and not be able to detect something is amiss.

        • Nick, mostly says:

          Yes. It’s called anterograde amnesia and it’s what people mean when saying they were “blackout drunk.” It’s not the same as being “passed out drunk” which is when you lose consciousness.

          And therein lies a big problem. With alcohol intoxication induced anterograde amnesia It is entirely possible to consent but not remember consenting nor to whom consent was given. When the effects wear off, from your perspective the sex you’re having (or had) was entirely non-consensual, whereas from the other person’s perspective (who was likely also intoxicated, but perhaps not to the same degree) they had obtained consent.

          I’m too ignorant to speculate as to the prevalence of such a scenario, but do know that it’s well within the realm of possibility.

          • That. Is. Scary. :S
            Thanks for the link, been wanting to know what it was for a while.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I should say, I have second-hand experience of it (or so I’ve been led to believe). Went to a party with a girl, who drank a lot of booze, quickly, and she was super flirty with me. She wanted to go to sleep at the party but I decided to take her back to her dorm instead. Once there, she invited me in to stay the night but I declined. She later had no memory of the incident.

              Had I had taken her up on her offer and had sex with her, would that have been rape? I was sober enough to realize she should sleep it off, but what if I had been just as drunk as she? It seems perilous that the line between rape and not-rape might be whether you are together enough to determine whether someone’s apparent enthusiastic consent might be remembered in the morning.

            • If you were both drunk, you would have been raping each other probably. If you were sober enough to realize she should sleep it off then you’d probably be raping or at least taking advantage of her although it depends largely on just how drunk she is. If you felt she needed to sleep it off then that’s past consent stage I think. It becomes very tricky when people have alcohol because some people may have a little bit and be smashed, others have a lot n be fine. We can guess as to how drunk they are but it’s not always a good idea, like with the blackout amnesia stuff. Safer to avoid sex with alcohol.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I think it’s safe to say if she didn’t remember the proposition the next day, she likely wouldn’t have remembered the sex positively either. Fortunately (or not) I have a very high tolerance for alcohol, and wasn’t too drunk to say “let’s wait” instead of “fuck yeah!” I mean, she appeared to be enthusiastically consenting. I’m not sure I could fault someone else for taking an enthusiastic yes for an answer, particularly if they’re also too drunk to consider whether or not it is good consent.

      • I hear your pain. My rape was very different, but I understand.

        A male friend of mine was passed out on the lawn outside a house-party, and girl who had been trying to talk to him all night stuck her hand into his trousers and fondled his penis, then started dry humping him. He woke up partway through. That is serious sexual assault and attempted rape. He felt very violated in the morning.

        If he tried to prosecute, she wouldn’t use the “victim is a slut defence”, she would use the “Victim is a man” defence. But in reality, he is unable to even see himself as a victim.

  10. If you look at hook-up culture in college and beyond, of which I was certainly a part, alcohol is at the heart of it. Would men and women make the same decisions about sex if they weren’t innebriated? In many ways, alcohol does allow people to shed their inhibitions, but it also can get them into trouble. I was talking to a woman whose son goes to Amherst College, my alma mater, and she said that women cannot give consent to have sex after having two drinks (I’m not sure if that’s a campus policy or the law), that if you have sex with a girl who has had more than two drinks, it’s techincally considered rape because she could not give her consent in the first place. So what’s the answer? No sex at all, I suppose. Or possibly men and women need to sign waivers of some sort before they go out drinking for the night that says they consent to sex if they’ve had more than two drinks (I’m guessing it’s more for men), but that if they say ‘no’ during hooking up that absolutely means ‘no’. Maybe someone will develop some sort of app for this purpose.

    • How many drinks for men though? Or is it yet another onlywomengetraped policy/idea?

    • “I was talking to a woman whose son goes to Amherst College, my alma mater, and she said that women cannot give consent to have sex after having two drinks”

      This seems outright discriminatory. The campus policy should be to also instruct women that men cannot consent to sex after two drinks.
      This seems rather gender-norming to me. It embraces the idea that sex is a gift women give to men, and if a man conspires to get that gift “on the cheap” he is a bastard. This policy also seems to have a cheap view of men’s sexuality that it is not worth protecting.

      This campus policy needs to be overturned.

  11. this actually changed my perspective on things. Ok so when a guy gets drunk and sleeps with someone he would never sleep with other wise it’s a mistake and a lil embarrassing when his bros are all like “yooo dude i can’t believe u got w that!!”. But when a girl does the same thing it’s rape an emotionally traumatizing…. I’m a girl and I’ve slept with less then savory characters but I do not feel raped just embarrassed. So how do we tell the difference b/w rape and an oopsie daisy?

    • Everything gets fuzzy when drugs and alcohol are involved. Let’s say we have two people who are both very drunk and neither remembers exactly what happened the next day. Who is to say one person was a rapist and the other was raped? What if you don’t know how drunk the other person is? I don’t really think we can call most of this rape. I don’t believe that rape can happen accidentally. You make a conscious decision to not heed a very clear lack of consent and you are raping someone.

      • I concur with Colin. Like boss (who posted above), when I was at university, I had drunk sex with a guy I was seeing. It really was something that just happened (I gave nonverbal consent), and I felt icky and weird about it the next day — it wasn’t supposed to happen that soon into our relationship — but I didn’t feel violated. I didn’t feel scared. It didn’t wreck my life. Am I supposed to feel that way? I get this weird feeling that I am. OTOH, at around the same age (early 20s) I had plenty of female friends who had the same drunken experience with the “hot guy at the bar,” and they *did* feel violated and taken advantage of, but not for the reasons you might think — because he didn’t call the next day and ask them to go out on a proper date.

        Add alcohol into any mix, and things do get murky, especially when judgment is impaired to the point where it wipes out the person’s memory. A woman who thought she said “no” (in retrospect) might have actually said “yes” and did all of the very intimate things with a man enthusiastically when she was under the influence. Nothing about this issue is clear cut. The problem, at least to my mind, seems to be more about one of the many problems associated with alcoholism (and drinking in general) and how this affects the people around us.

        • If you’re drunk, don’t have sex. If it’s something you both want, it’s something you’ll both want the next day. I don’t see what’s murky about this.

          Nobody is telling women they are “supposed to feel violated.” Women have been violated – raped – when intoxicated. Others have had intoxicated sex and it’s been OK or minimally OK (“icky and weird”). Your experiences are your experiences.

          The point is that there’s a pretty clear cut ethical line that can be drawn before taking an action that could end in either “weird” or rape.

    • @boss- evidently one would contact Allyssa Royse & she will set you straight….
      Or you could continue being strong & responsible and own your adulthood….

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      I think the way I’ve always viewed defining rape to oneself personally, is how you feel about it. If you don’t feel you were raped, that’s your definition.

      If you came to me and said, “I feel like I was raped, but I don’t know if it counts” I’d say you were. But in this case, you don’t, and unless someone prosecuted him, it’s really only up to you.

      Specifically, I think we have to look at the case of the woman whom he injured with a forceful “third base” – she felt violated and hurt. That definition is hers, and it’s real.

      But really, it’s up to you.

      • See, here’s the thing, Joanna. I do believe that it’s possible for a woman to give her tacit or explicit consent to sex, drunk or sober, and *still* feel violated and hurt — only it’s the woman who is in essence violating herself insofar that sex is an unpalatable means to an end that benefits only her partner. I have married female acquaintances who have serious issues with sex and find it “dirty” and “disgusting” even when it’s with their husband (just think of Carrie White’s religion-obsessed mom), and yes, they feel hurt and violated afterward. I don’t know even begin to know what else to say about this.

        • Joanna Schroeder says:

          Yeah, man, that’s tough.

          Is it rape if she consents and feels terrible later? Honestly, I can’t say. I don’t think so. But it also depends upon the scenario in which the consent was given… Was she coerced? What would be the consequences for her saying “no”?

          It’s not black and white, and that’s what’s so frustrating about it all.

          I do think, to some degree, that it is on people in relationships to be clear with their partners about sex and to communicate their consent. The people who are saying “yes” when they mean no are in a situation where they are in emotional distress and they need to make changes to fix that. It is far beyond my capacity to address how those changes need to happen. I’d recommend therapy for those individuals to address the root of the problems.

          • I might even argue that those who say “yes” (when they really mean “no”) should take themselves out of circulation for a while — and I’m speaking in terms of sex, of course — and get therapy to figure out what’s going on to cause such internal conflict. This is not conducive for healthy relationships of any kind, both in and outside of marriage or a long-term commitment.

          • I am taking everything you have said to the natural conclusion. I am sorry if you think that calling you out for your statements is unfair, but it is the simple truth.

  12. This piece troubles me more than I can even begin to express. This is why number 4 from this piece is so important to any conversation about consent: http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/want-the-best-sex-of-your-life-just-ask/

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      The editors’ prime objective in publishing this piece was to take this particular form of rape and hold it to the light and examine it, and to make clear that there are people like this in the world. Many of them. And some men or women reading this are this guy, doing these same things, and thinking they’re okay.

      They are not okay. Never. Jamie is right, it is intensely troubling and we need to reform the way we see the relationship between sex and alcohol. As it stands now, it’s too often dangerous.

      • Jeff Coulter says:

        Joanna,

        Thank you for the courage it took to go ahead and put this out for discussion. I am sure there was some serious back and forth on that. And thank you to Anonymous for having the courage to write it, even though I find it frightening. I think consensus shows that there is a serious problem with this type of thinking, as well as consensus that Anonymous has some unadressed issues. Out of darkness comes light, but to get there we need to examine the darkness and accept that it’s real. This attitude is very common in the party culture. There are both men and women who put themselves, and others, at risk for rape, sexually transmitted disease, the humiliation of being photographed for videoed without their knowledge or consent, all to chase the high. I’ve been there in the height of my own addiction, and I’ve seen it happen that consent gets very blurry.

        As a sober man my views are very different. Consent means the ability to say no with no repercussion. It is the ability to change your mind at any time, again with no repercussion, and it means conducting myself with respect for the other person to be willing to say no myself if I think they are coming from a place of diminished capacity. Being high is no excuse for rape.

        • Joanna Schroeder says:

          Jeff, thank you so much for this comment.

          “Consent means the ability to say no with no repercussion. It is the ability to change your mind at any time, again with no repercussion”

          I love this.

  13. @ Anonymous- Party on Dude, F’em if they can’t take a joke- right….
    Do you think you’ll will be as blasé coming out of a blackout and realizing you’ve been sodomized?
    Hate the game, not the player….
    Hate the sin, not the sinner.

  14. Wow..this was very uncomfortable to read because I never thought about it from the guys (or…rapist’s?) point of view. In real terms it is such a sketchy area-is ‘consent’ only valid when both parties are 100% in control of their faculties? (which is in a party atmosphere highly unlikely). What if the girl changes her mind at the 11th hour and the guy then proceeds to badger her into it? Is applying pressure to get consent (verbal and/or physical) still the same kind of consent that is freely given? Honestly I find the fact that there are guys like the author of this article carrying round such a disturbing secret..well scary, but sadly not surprising. By all means party on but learn to recognize a ‘no’ when you hear one-even in your ‘fucked-up’ state.

  15. Little Birdie says:

    The problem here has nothing to do with drugs, partying, drinking… The problem here is that the author is lowlife scum who uses drugs and alcohol as an excuse.

    • Well, that’s your opinion and I’m not really going to argue that portion of it.

      My takeaway on this is similar to what others have said: the author is deep in the throes of addiction.
      Regarding his views on rape, I really believe he is in earnest when he says he is willing to risk rape to let the good times keep rolling.

      I really get the feeling that if he woke up from a drunken passout to a woman drilling him from behind with a belt-on dildo he would not consider that rape, just the “cost of doing business”.

      The issue is that he is projecting the ultra-hardcore partier/addict mentality onto others and assuming they have the same views.

      But, that may not be the case. There are also newbies or people less seasoned/jaded at every party. He’s talking about a huge violation with somebody who most likely does not have his “come hell or high water I’m going to party on” attitude–somebody who got in over their head in terms of inebriation.

  16. Hey, Anonymous Writer.

    Rape trigger warnings notwithstanding, I read this whole article. And I have to say, I get it. I’m not saying that what you write about is right or good… but I understand. I started out ready to judge you up one side and down the other, but I understand.

    The problem is not with you. And regardless of what others may say (I’ve learned to be judicious in my comment-skipping), the partying and drunkenness is not the problem.

    The problem is this screwed-up culture of ours that tells us You Must Be Having Great Sex All The Time and at the same time tells us Don’t Ever Talk About Sex, Especially Not To Those You’re Having It With.

    If we lived in a truly sex-positive culture… a culture that taught about enthusiastic consent, that taught men how to recognize a “no” even when it wasn’t spoken… your cost of doing business might not be so high.

    Have you raped women? Almost certainly. Have you been raped? That’s for you to decide, but it sounds like it to me. Is it your fault? …. Hard to say. I’d argue it’s nobody’s fault – and that doesn’t make it less awful or wrong.

    I hope someday you find a place where you can party safely, enjoy sex with as many or as few fully-consenting partners as you wish, and somehow escape or overcome the awful mixed-up messages we live with every day.

  17. you are all gigantic babies

  18. I can only imagine that we are supposed to read this in light of this person being a “nice man”. Except it reads as though it was written by a juvenile borderline sociopath. Is the nice guy club so short of members that we have to start admitting guys who are only a little bit rapey?

    If you ever find yourself in a situation where you’ve taken so many drugs or drunk so much booze that negotiating consent becomes too complex to the point that you have raped 1 to 6 women then (among all the other issues in your psyche) you likely have a drug/drinks problem that you need to get help over.

  19. Intense piece. Sad and difficult to read as well. But necessary. I’m glad GMP decided to post this article.

    Anonymous, I hope you consider the following questions. Have you ever thought sincerely about what kind of man you want to be? Did you have different aspirations or ideas about how you thought your life would have gone before you began parting? Have you ever set a code for yourself and how you would conduct yourself while sober or not sober? When you were younger, did you dream of the day you would get yourself into some sketchy situations where some women would feel violated from you? Do you honestly ever sit down and think about the women that never wanted contact with you again? Do you have any women or young girls close to you and can you imagine them navigating situations with men like yourself?

    Despite all the intimacy you are having Anonymous, it actually seems like you are running away from intimacy. Bumping body parts together alone isn’t intimacy or closeness. You are totally scared to see who people are and to let them see who you really are! I sense a dumpster truck full of self loathing from you based on the piece you wrote. You don’t care how you treat others because the reality is you don’t really seem to care about yourself. You don’t like yourself very much, do you. Which makes getting lost in a mind altering state of sex and drink more comfortable. Because then you don’t have to think about all that more difficult and complicated stuff. People that are truly happy and satisfied with themselves don’t feel the need to get lost in this level of self pleasuring. You really need to do a lot of difficult self examining. I hope you get to a point in your life when you are strong enough to do that. Right now, it doesn’t sound like you are.

    The fact that you wanted to remain anonymous wraps up how you really feel about what is going on in your life over any of the points or rationalizations you’ve made in your piece. You simply aren’t proud or comfortable with the man you are right now. Unfortunately, it might take a life changing event for you to get there.

    As for a more general comment, this is one reason why I actually think casual sex for men and women is more often, more harmful, then it is healthy. Sex is healthy. Being instantly turned on or attracted to someone is healthy. Using someone to self gratify yourself is not really healthy behavior even if it is satisfying a healthy desire. There is a difference between healthy desires and healthy behaviors. Not all behaviors that lead to satisfying healthy desires are positive things. And I actually think casual sex is a big factor in negative experiences between men and women and some of the bitterness both sides can experience. Which is why it’s a stereotype that women can easily feel used for sex. Even today despite discussions about how many women now want casual sex. I think women still biologically can feel used for sex more often then men can.

    I know from my own experience that when I was younger, I did try to do casual hook-ups. I hardly ever let them go as far as full blow sex but I was doing other things that I didn’t feel too good about. I wanted male attention desperately and was unfortunately willing to sacrifice some things to get it. I wanted male approval and I wrongly assumed that physical interest was the same thing as getting male approval. I got the message early that that was what I was suppose to be doing. Because that’s what a lot of my friends were doing. So I wonder how many young women are giving up pieces of themselves because they don’t want to feel like they are behind their peers or because people tell them that now is the time to “have fun”. I had fun in the short term but it left negative experiences with me long term. And it left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the things some men are capable of in how they treated me, and how they could treat other women. From my point of view, I just wanted some love and attention. Even thought I was turned on, it wasn’t about sex for me as a girl, it was about having a man interested enough in paying attention to me. And I think that ALOT of girls and young women experience the same thing. Especially in a world that tells females their worth is in their sexuality.

    I also wonder what it says that these young women and men have to get drunk to make choices about sex. Some say that drugs or alcohol simply makes one less inhibited. As if being less inhibited was our natural state? Is being less inhibited better? Always better? Is it better to get so drunk and out of control that you are operating purely from one feeling? Is it any different to make a choice in a rage of lust as it is in a rage of anger or jealously?

    There is a line where “less inhibited” stops being a positive thing. If you can’t get on stage and sing and you want to get on stage and sing, being less inhibited will help. But if you are drinking and doing drugs and are less inhibited, and making choices in a haze of drug and drink, “less inhibited” seems rather lously.

    I think we really need to teaching young people more important tools surrounding mind altering drugs. More so then what we currently have. And we need to stop saying things like, “Oh you are young, get out the partying now”, or , “It’s okay because you are young right now.” I don’t think these are very healthy things to say. Who ever said that getting so wasted until you couldn’t make sound choices was normal? Who ever said that this was a good right of passage? Young women need to be just as educated as young men. While I don’t think a woman getting drunk is an invitation to get raped, young women need to be more aware of what getting drunk and loosing control of yourself puts you into a highly vulnerable position. And young men need to learn the same. That drinking also puts them in a vulnerable position of a different sorts, leaving them open to making choices that aren’t for their best, or for the best of those around them.

  20. There is one truth that we may be forgetting & if someone else has said it, I appollogize; Addicts are lying sacks of shit.
    So let’s take all of Anonymous’ tale for what it is.
    A story spun by a junkie who has disappeared back under his rock.

    • I disagree with your view on the GMP publishing it. To me it is important to highlight how some people behave as a warning to others, so we can deconstruct their actions and show, as you just did, how it is rape, how it is wrong. Rape culture will only be increased by NOT publishing such material because less people will get a glimpse into the excuses made, the danger of alcohol, etc. So please don’t insult the GMP because you’d rather sweep important issues under the carpet.

      • I don’t think that I’m trying to sweep anything under the carpet.

        And I’ve reconsidered what I said about wishing GMP hadn’t published this; I just wish that they’d published it differently. I think what mostly angers/frustrates me is their introduction. I wish that they had:

        a) been clearer that this man is most probably an addict with severe substance abuse problems (I know that this was discussed in another article, but I would have liked to have seen it in this article as well)

        b) talked about how addiction warps a person’s thoughts and behaviour

        c) talked about the ways in which people facing similar addictions can get help

        d) discussed how this contributes to rape culture

        e) discussed how rape culture harms both men and women

        f) reinforced how incredibly wrong this guy is, beyond just saying “we don’t agree with him”

        I guess that I worry that without these things, plastering his rationalizations across the internet just helps other people rationalize this type of behaviour. This article needs more to it in order to help bring down rape culture.

        • Lisa Hickey says:

          We are going to continue to talk about all of those things, Anabelle. Thanks for your suggestions.

          • When you do, I hope you also require some evidence to support this notion of “rape culture” that otherwise goes unquestioned in a lot of discussions.

            • This is a good starting point: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

              This is also good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFt8N1cf7mc

              I would be happy to write something about rape culture, and the ways that it hurts both men and women, if that would be something that the GMP would be interested in.

            • Lisa Hickey says:
            • Just a metalhead says:

              That article is insane. Going by it “rape culture” is things like the application of the presumption of innocence in court (media avoiding the word when describing trials to avoid being sued for slander, judges telling people to avoid the word in trials, etc…) or just the fact that rape occurs.

              African Americans are more likely to murder and be murdered in the US than other racial groups, would calling African American culture a “murder culture” be okay? Hell no.

              A society in which rape is considered a crime about as bad as murder can NOT be called a rape culture. A “real” rape culture would be one where people who rape are actually seen as positive role models BECAUSE of their raping. That is not the case at all.

              Going by that article, the only way not to be a “rape culture” would be to preemptively castrate all males and execute on the spot anyone any woman accuses of rape.

            • I agree, the whole discourse on “rape culture” baffles me, particularly because it can be defined as this:
              “A rape culture is a complex of beliefs that encourages male sexual aggression and supports violence against women.”

              and this:
              “…a culture in which…prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.”

              You will notice in any discussion surrounding Rape Culture there is an assertion that rape and rape jokes are tools used by men as a threat to “keep women in their place” or that the cause of rape culture is the “domination or objectification of women,” and a lot of these discussions ignore a very important fact (well until a man says something which results in a barrage of “Jeeze why does everything have to be about the menz?”):

              There is very little data on how often women have sex with men without the man’s consent, and there is a strong possibility as revealed by the recent CDC study that the frequency of non-consensual woman-on-male encounters is almost 1-to-1 with male-on-female rape.

              If we define rape as a non-consensual sexual encounter, then the CDC survey puts the rate of female perpetrators at close to 40%.

              Which begs the question, if rape culture really exists, if we want to get rid of a rape culture, and if a rape culture is the normalization of rape or the denial or blaming of victims why do we only talk about male-on-female non-consensual sexual encounters, or more recently male-on-male?

              If feminists want to eradicate ‘rape culture,’ then why were feminists celebrating the new definition of rape which still denies the experiences of almost half of all estimated victims of non-consensual sex in 2010? Why do we not hear of people like Carol Tracy who led the Women’s Law Project in the new definition or Eleanor Smeal of the Feminist Majority Foundation being called “rape apologists” for asserting things like “If you can’t measure it accurately, you can’t monitor it and you can’t direct appropriate resources to deal with the problem” while ignoring that the new definition still doesn’t accurately measure almost half of reported non-consensual sexual experiences?

              Isn’t saying “well guys always want sex, so he must have wanted it” victim blaming?

              If a rape culture denies or normalizes rape and the definition of rape culture asserts that rape culture is about men having power over women, then isn’t the definition of rape culture an example of rape culture?

              Doesn’t that make every Take Back the Night, every anti-rape ad that features only male-on-female rape, VAWA, and every feminist article that perpetuates the highly gendered rape statistics that denies the existence of half of the problem or insists that “silly menz always making things about them” the perpetuation of rape culture, and doesn’t that make everyone who is fighting for an end to “rape culture” that doesn’t recognize female-on-male incidents “rape apologists?”

            • Spectacular points. I just *wonder* why there are no responses :)

              I wish I could like your post somehow, but wordpress sucks.

            • sara brielle says:

              It is absurd and frankly a bit dumb to think that men being raped and women being raped is 1 to 1. But even more importantly 90% of the time its men doing the raping.

            • @Sara, absurd why?
              20% of rapists are female according to the CDC NISVS2010 if you include men forced to penetrate as rape. The 1:1 parity stat is the 12 months before the survey was taken time period where equal numbers of men n women reported being raped. For lifetime about 1 in 5 rapes was perpetrated by a woman on a man, but this doesn’t include prison rape statistics.

              It’s utterly absurd to think men do 90% of the raping given new stats have found otherwise and have been out for quite some time. 80% is more closer to reality based off the latest stats.

  21. another anonymous says:

    I am also in a program of Recovery, and hear a lot about rape. Most from survivors; it is hard even in those anonymous places for people to admit they’ve raped; however many do with their sponsor, priest, or trusted friend, and make their amends (as opposed to continuing to justify this lifestyle).

    I was raped at a party after drinking enough I couldn’t give consent. By two men. Today I’ve forgiven those men as well as all who’ve wronged me, and today I’m grateful to be in Recovery. However that doesn’t mean those men’s actions were OK. Forgiveness was a gift I gave myself.

    I don’t think partying is going to continue to work out for you, and your actions are clearly not working out for others. Nothing I say here can convince you to seek help, but I do wish you the best.

  22. Jonathan G says:

    This discussion reminds me of nothing so much as much casting of stones. Am I to believe that there are so many without sin, who have never done anything or held any belief that causes a risk of harm to others in pursuit of their own ends?

    • Jeff Coulter says:

      To the contary! I think that people have been fairly open about their personal experiences on both sides of the issue.There’s been very little finger pointing, and only a modest amount of “there but for the grace of God..” What I think we are seeing is a group of people who hold people accountable for their actions. Nobody gets a pass for wrong behavior because they were drunk, high, or both.

      Most of us have probably done something we regret when under the influence. We may have done something that negatively impact others. Perhaps in a minor way, or even in a major way. I think that lends credibility to the argument.

      The consensus seems to be that the author is saying that while under the influence he has probably engaged in rape. And yet he doesn’t want to stop partying and accepts that it could happen again as a consequence. When a person admits that his or her drinking and drugging may injure themselves or others, but they don’t want to stop, you have a clear example of an addict acting out.

      • Jonathan G says:

        When a person admits that his or her drinking and drugging may injure themselves or others, but they don’t want to stop, you have a clear example of an addict acting out.

        Funny you say that, because that’s kind of how I feel about another issue that, uhh, hits close to home for me. See, I’m an inveterate bicyclist. I ride my bike all the time, all sorts of places. And if I can do it, so can most everybody else. But they don’t; they drive their cars.

        You know cars– those behemoths of steel, plastic and rubber that go fast enough and build up such momentum that they easily kill pedestrians and bicyclists like me should they happen to cross paths? Of course, since piloting one of these potential-manslaughter machines is fraught with such danger to other people, drivers always pay scrupulous attention to the road, anticipate hazards, and never, ever talk on their cell phone, read text messages, fiddle with the radio, drive when they’re too tired, on drugs, or in any other manner that impairs their ability to drive safely.

        Sorry, I couldn’t suppress the sarcasm– Just this past summer a woman my age got splattered across the highway while biking to work, by a teenage driver who’d just worked an overnight shift and drove without sleep. It’s a distressingly routine occurrence. But does it cause anybody to re-think their driving habits? (Everybody thinks they’re an above-average driver, but even the most conscientious driver risks unforeseen situations– the risk is inherent in the activity. That’s why the comparative negligence calculation in tort cases in this state assigns some blame to every driver in a crash just for being present.)

        So yeah, I see literally countless examples every day of people who know their actions might injure or kill other people, but judge that risk acceptable due to the benefits (to themselves) of the activity, but don’t want to stop: also a clear example of an addict acting out.

        P.S. One might object that the situations are not exactly analogous. I agree. Partying might result in rape, but driving might result in somebody’s death. Dead is worse than raped; if it’s not, let’s institute routine euthanization of rape victims, okay?

        • um, but driving is slightly more necessary for most people’s day-to-day lives, and/or the functioning of the world in general, than partying…? Of course I know there are many superior alternatives to driving, it’s disgusting how irresponsibly many people drive etc etc, but ‘partying may lead to rape but driving leads to death’ seems a rather ridiculous statement…I mean sure, agreed, but not really sure what your point is?!

          • Jonathan G says:

            I spelled out my intent in making the point in a longer comment elsewhere, but in short, it’s about trying to induce some empathy– it’s funny how you see your actions as reasonable despite the threat to other people’s well-being and how you can justify it because you’re helplessly forced into it. But you’re not. Driving is not necessary. Your lifestyle choices may make it necessary to sustain that lifestyle, but at the end of the day, they are still your choices.

            But if I were to be honest, I’d have to admit that partly I made this argument for the lulz. I find it darkly humorous to see people re-purpose the very same arguments that they rightly decry as “rape apologia” to use as “manslaughter apologia.”

    • Yet another anonymous person says:

      Not at all. I am not without sin, but I tend to think that having sinned in similar ways might have given me some experience that could prove useful if the yall’d care to listen.

      I was very hesitant to comment on this piece, because to a certain extent I get where Anonymous is coming from. I’m not trying to excuse his behavior, but, well… shit happens. And shit happens a lot more when you do a lot of drugs. ‘Nuff said.

      I think the difference between us is largely that I am at a point in my life where I feel remorse and I LEARNED from my experiences. Not immediately, it is true. But eventually I changed my life around for the better.

      I can’t tell you what this guy’s potential process of self realization will look like. But as someone who’s walked a similar path and committed more than my fair share of crimes, I can tell you that his attitude is one I’ve seen before in my old peers.

      He feels no shame for the danger he presents to other people. It is acceptable to him, and the reason he posted anonymously is because he feels that everyone else isn’t ready to accept him for what he is, rather than that he feels shame for his actions and wants to hide his face. It’s a common reaction among deviants from potheads to pedophiles. It’s not their fault, just no one is as enlightened as them.

      That attitude leads to trouble. It has been described (accurately) as sociopathic. In this writer’s case, it’s violently sociopathic. Maybe if he can get out from under the toxic influence of mind altering substances and out of his toxic environment that will change. Unfortunately there is no way to tell and until that point he’s a danger to everyone around him. And he’s cool with it.

      Lots of my old junkie and tweaker buddies are the same way. And they’re in the Pen. I sincerely hope that the author can come to some self-realization before that’s where he ends up too, but there’s no guarantee that’ll happen.

      At the very least, I hope that it does eventually happen and he can come to some self realization then. To trade years of your life for a wasted lesson is a real shame. More importantly though, to hurt people over and over without any sort of social intervention is a tragedy.

  23. Haven’t commented in a while, mostly due to disgust with the atmosphere but this… This article is pure genius. It hits right to the issue. That grey area. The place Oppression Olympics can’t go. The place gender politics can’t talk about. The place where a rapist is also a rape victim. The place where consent isn’t clearly defined, or even “good,” it’s just a vague feeling which can often be wrong or right, depending on the next morning or even the next minute.

    I find it VERY telling that the majority of women condemn this guy without an equal measure of compassion. He’s a victim, after all, as much as anyone else on this site. He’s possibly an addict. I don’t know. I’m not comfortable diagnosing people with disorders since I’m not a doctor or mental health professional. And I think others here should be equally hesitant to diagnose him as well. It’s a dangerous way to excuse his behavior while simultaneously condescending his own victimization and free will.

    But back to the point: why is it that the majority of women are condemning this guy? And why are the majority of guys sorry for him? Because, I think, that most guys have been in his position where “good” consent didn’t exist, guys who had sex with another person and weren’t really in the state to make sure the other person wanted it. Or to even find out if they wanted it themselves.

    However, nobody talks about this area. Nobody seems to care that victimizers are also victims. Makes it a little harder to hate the rapist who is also a rape victim. Makes it a little harder to push that Black/White Man-Bad/Woman-Good metanarrative that mainstream culture just laps up.

    But let me be clear: I wouldn’t want to live this guy’s life. It doesn’t look healthy to me, but he’s making an informed adult choice to suffer the consequences of it. Are we going to say, “no you can’t party anymore because you might get raped or rape someone else.” ??? Because that’s as much victim-blaming as telling women not to dress slutty or drink too much.

    Seriously, I find it offensive that so many commenters are ready to tell this guy what he should do with his life to avoid being raped while simultaneously bristling at the mere mention of any person telling women how to minimize their chances of being raped. Why? BECAUSE THE BURDEN IS NOT ON RAPE VICTIMS TO NOT BE RAPED. The burden is not on this guy to stop partying because people might rape him. The grey area comes in again though, does he bear the burden to stop partying so he won’t ever accidentally rape someone again? Yes… and no. Is it rape if the consent is bad but the person later enjoyed it? Is it rape if there was no consent but the person doesn’t care? Is it rape if the person first said stop but then said continue? Yes… and no. Just like it is and is not rape when a person said yes but then changed their mind later. Or when a person said no at first but then said stop in the middle and the other person stopped. Or when both people were drunk and completely forgot having sex with each other, or remember and regret it, or remember and didn’t want it, etc.

    But regardless of our feelings, I applaud this man’s courage to speak the truth, even though he has to hide behind anonymity just to let it out. I applaud the offensive, raw honesty of his life. Without regrets. And that’s something I’ll keep in mind when I discuss how to stop rape among men and women.

    • I cross-posted this over at “Belle Jar”:

      http://letterstomycountry.tumblr.com/post/4245885118/comments-on-rape-law-and-the-mens-rea-of-consent

      This person has a decent handle on it. Bottom line, any rape statute will harm innocents; the trick is to minimize that harm. With respect to the intersection of drugs, including alcohol, and consent, I think that legislating morality is abhorrent. People are going to have sex while under the influence, some with strangers, others with long-term partners, regardless of statute.

      If only sober sex is consensual, then there are a whole lot of rapists running around college campuses, and at least half of them are women. The key is consent, rather than rape statutes.

      However, don’t expect “yes means yes” to take hold any time soon. One, a lot of communication is nonverbal. Two, some people are coy about their sexual desire–and that is their choice to make.

    • We’re not blaming the victim, we’re blaming the perpetrator.
      In simple language it boils down to, “I”m having too much fun to want to stop being a potential or actual rapist!”
      If he’s doing things that need him or the people around him severly plastered to enjoy, then there’s something pretty wrong going on. Maybe he should look at why those inhibitions are there, and try to move them in a less alcoholic dependant way, rather than simply use alcohol to blitze his brain hard enough he can’t remember what he’s Fucked up.

      Screwing up your own life is one thing, willfully putting other people at risk just for fun is beyond dispicable.

      • Random_Stranger says:

        Yeah, but your missing the point –

        if a totally drunk guy and a totally drunk girl have sex and then later regret it, did they both just rape each other? Who is the victim and who is the perpetrator when both parties consent to losing the ability to consent?

        • Here’s the thing. This is a person who, by his own admission, would much rather put himself and others at risk of harm than make the relatively minor lifestyle change of drinking less at parties. He’d rather wake up one morning to find out that he has raped, or been raped, or WORSE (because I can think of a lot of Very Nasty Things that can happen to you when you’re drunk, and rape, while horrible, is just the tip of the iceberg), than limit himself to Just One Beer, or have a friend handy to make sure he doesn’t do anything stupid.

          There are such things as sober parties. They can be quite fun, if you’re doing them right. (I can’t think of too many parties at which I’ve had more than one drink, or particularly wanted to.) If your parties are so shitty that you have to be completely wasted to have any fun, then there’s your problem right there. If the parties are good anyway, but you’re choosing to get drunk all the time for other reasons, you may have an alcohol dependency problem–and if you do, then you should admit it and do something to break that dependency.

          But what the author has chosen here is just ridiculously irresponsible and frankly stupid.

        • Nobody ever has a reasonable answer to that question.

    • Don’t be silly! Rape is a black-or-white issue, good vs. evil, and all consent situations are 100% crystal-clear and unambiguous. False accusations never occur, the crime is always one-way (only men rape, remember), and only a rape apologist would acknowledge any complexity in the areas of human social interaction. Even discussing such things is a Crime Against Women.

      Because Rape Culture Grrrrr.

      • Here’s the thing: Yes, there are gray areas. But in general, it’s better to err on the side of “I don’t know if the other person wants it, so I should wait until I get a more clear ‘Yes’ before going any further than this.”

        And as a general rule, “This person is intoxicated, and I don’t know this person well enough to know whether or not the answer would be ‘Yes’ under sober conditions, so I should probably wait a few hours and let that whole sobering-up process happen.”

        When you don’t know, assume “No.” You may not get laid as often, but at least you won’t have any sex that you might regret having.

  24. “Consensual grey areas” are just another rape myth for people who want to continue on the path of their own hedonism regardless of the harm to others that this creates.

    There’s nothing deep or meaningful here. Just another rapist trying to explain his actions away.

    If he, or others like him, would take just a few moments while they partied to give some consideration to the wants and needs of others then these issues would disappear. Instead these people choose to pursue their own desires above all else and the people around them become simply ‘part of the experience.’

    I’ve seen it myself so many times. Someone is raped at a party. If they don’t brush it under the carpet like everyone else they’re ostrasized by almost their entire friendgroup on the scene. Everyone actively treats rape as an “out of sight, out of mind issue” in these situations because it spoils the fun. And another rapist walks free.

    There’s no such thing as “accidental rape” only selfish egotists who never stop to consider that the person they’ve chosen that night might not think they’re god’s gift to sexuality and pleasure. If they cared about whether the other person was enjoying themselves, they’d sincerely ask, and any issues of consent would quickly become apparent.

    • (None of the following is meant to apply to the anon author, it sounds quite clearly like he is a rapist)

      No grey areas? A man n a woman consume 10 drinks, they are both equally drunk (let’s ignore biological differences body to body for this question) and they both enthusiastically have sex yet both aren’t able to walk a straight line. Who is the rapist? To me this is a grey area because they can’t legally consent, they rape each other, but do we charge them both? If they both wakeup the next day and are completely fine with what happened, do we still charge them?

      Next grey area is blackout, where someone says yes at the time and is enthusiastic but they aren’t storing memories. Next day they wakeup, can’t remember what happened, was it rape? If they showed zero signs of being unable to consent do we still charge the non-blackout person?

      Another grey area. I would like my partner to wake me up with a blowjob one day, technically it’s rape as it would be initiated whilst I am asleep, should she be charged?

      Grey areas exist and what can technically be rape can be agreed upon between 2 people, many people have sex when they BOTH legally can’t consent, do we automatically assume they’re rapists who knew it was rape and charge them accordingly or are they different to the rapist who has sex with someone who has passed out or forces them with the victim not being enthusiastic?

      I can maybe see accidental rape happening when someone is having drunk sex and the other passes out, the time it takes to pull out or get off of them (1 second?) would that mean they’ve just accidentally raped that person for 1 second + time they didn’t notice they passed out? I think it’d be pretty rare though but I can see the possibility of it happening since consent can be removed during sex itself by the fact that a person may have had a large amount of alcohol just before sex and it takes time to hit the bloodstream for instance. If I have sex with my partner whilst drinking large amounts of alcohol I will cross a threshold where I can’t consent, but if I am the one on top in missionary for instance where it may not be as easy to notice how drunk I am as I am not standing, or speaking much, wouldn’t there be the possibility that if we continue to have sex she is now a rapist if we keep going past the time for the BAC to reach that threshold? Obviously I’d hope she could notice my state has changed and stop but seriously how easy is it to spot when someone is too drunk? Legally I wouldn’t be able to drive but I could probably still walk around n talk so what would be the threshold for impairment of consent?

      I am still waiting for answers to these questions because they plague me and make me afraid to have sex even with one drink because I don’t want to have a drunken encounter with someone which may put me at risk of rape, or both of us at risk of rape due to alcohol impairment. I have ZERO desire to rape someone, I want someone 100% responsive and enthusiastic which is another reason why I am afraid to have sex after we’ve had alcohol. Is one drink ok? 2? I’ve had 3-4 drinks before and feel like I could consent willingly and have good ability to consent but does that legally put the other at risk?

      I don’t think rape is as black n white as many wish it to be. Sure it’s great to think rape is always the rapist wanting to rape but what if alcohol is severely impairing the judgment of people and they’re raping each other? They probably never want to rape someone, and may both think the other is consenting as they could be enthusiastically all over each other but legally they may be past the threshold.

      I think rape is terrible but I think there is grey area rape, or at least situations that I have described which I haven’t been informed properly on if they are rape or not. This isn’t meant to excuse the actions of rapists but I am trying to figure out how people can get so drunk, have sex, and when that is rape. My understanding is that there a millions of men n women who have drunken sex and are raping each other by the law’s definition of impairment to mental state from alcohol.

      I’d love to hear from someone clued up on Australian law on this matter.

      • First example wasn’t rape as you stated that they both enthusiastically went for it and were clearly fine with their sexual encounter. This is what I mean by communication. In this example you have already implied that both parties made it very clear they wanted to have sex. Hence, not rape. Also, questions of legally don’t really factor into this as it just confuses the point. For example, not all countries deem inebriated persons as unable to consent, and assuming hetero norms, many countries do not extend the definition of rape to include males.

        Second example, if someone is blackout level drunk, they will never appear totally sober. i.e showing ZERO signs of being unable to consent. This is because alcohol is a poison that affects your brain chemistry and therefore it is not possible to show ZERO signs of inebriation unless somehow you are immune to alcohol, in which case you would not be able to get blackout drunk. Any reasonable person would see signs of severe inebriation, even when drunk, and think “I want to make sure this person is definitively able to consent to my sexual advances but I can’t do that right now. I’ll give them my contact details instead and they’ll get in touch later at a more appropriate time if they’re really interested.”

        Third, if you’ve given prior consent for such action because you’ve DISCUSSED it with your partner it is obviously not rape.

        Fourth, the one second thing… seriously? Don’t be ridiculous. The act of pulling out once you’ve realised consent has obviously been withdrawn due to their unconsciousness (and why were they having sex with someone that drunk anyways?) means you are consciously taking steps to avoid rape, not becoming accidental one-second-rapist. What would make you a rapist in this scenario would be not being attentive enough of your sexual partner to realise they were so drunk they were going to pass out during intercourse.

        The rest of your response is totally the right answer by the way:

        “I want someone 100% responsive and enthusiastic which is another reason why I am afraid to have sex after we’ve had alcohol. Is one drink ok? 2? I’ve had 3-4 drinks before and feel like I could consent willingly and have good ability to consent but does that legally put the other at risk?”

        This is exactly the right way to be thinking. This is what I mean by no grey areas. You are the type of person that is attentive and considerate to the needs and wants of your sexual partners. It’s people NOT asking these questions that is the very problem. The people that DON’T ask these questions when they engage in sexual activity are the ones who are less likely to care about who they have sex with and what state that person is in.

        By taking the time to care, you find ways to avoid the entire situation. It’s the people who are too selfish and hedonistic to care that find themselves in the scenarios you’ve mentioned. They say: “I want sex and there is someone I wouldn’t mind having sex with” and rather than communicating what they want and asking the other person what they want and making sure that person is totally fine with the scenario and obviously able to consent, they just plough forward with their sexual desire and just assume consent. This is why it’s not “accidental rape,” but rather “I didn’t care enough to consider the possibility that I am raping this person.”

        • By taking the time to care, you find ways to avoid the entire situation. It’s the people who are too selfish and hedonistic to care that find themselves in the scenarios you’ve mentioned. They say: “I want sex and there is someone I wouldn’t mind having sex with” and rather than communicating what they want and asking the other person what they want and making sure that person is totally fine with the scenario and obviously able to consent, they just plough forward with their sexual desire and just assume consent. This is why it’s not “accidental rape,” but rather “I didn’t care enough to consider the possibility that I am raping this person.”
          Read more at http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/id-rather-risk-rape-than-quit-partying/#JlexUFJM19QxgVms.99

          I’m going to call you out on this, you personally don’t want to have sex with someone who hasn’t been drinking, I personally am the same way, but I know a lot of people, men and women who love drunk or high sex. This is emoting one set personal preferences onto another person’s personal preferences. I also very strongly feel that it is taking away agency from a person and taking away their personal responsibility for their actions. I’m not talking about when a person passed out and someone forces themselves on him or her, or when a person is comatose and someone forces themselves on him or her, or a person is threatened by someone either by violence or coercion. I’m talking about when a person ‘lets themselves go’ and engages in risky behavior.

          If I am drunk and I give someone $50, I can’t say “I was drunk when I gave him that money so he stole it from me.”

          If I am drunk and I break a window I can’t say “I was drunk, I can’t be held accountable for deciding to break a window.”

          If I am drunk and I drive a car I can’t say “I’m too drunk to be held accountable for deciding to get into the car and drive.”

          So how can, if I’m expected to be held accountable for my actions for all these other things when I am drunk, how can I, assuming the other person didn’t purposely give me alcohol or drugs against my will or violently force him or herself on me, get away with saying “I’m too drunk to be held accountable for deciding to have sex with that person, and so that person raped me?”

          Maybe this way of looking at things makes me a “rape apologist,” and the more I hear that phrase, the more I think it’s a nasty label that gets thrown around to avoid actually facing this conversation. Let me reiterate that I’m NOT talking about someone violently forcing someone against their will, I’m NOT talking about someone using coercion, I’m NOT talking about having sex with someone who is passed out, I’m NOT talking about someone who is so drunk they have no motor function, and I’m NOT talking about “blaming the victim,” or saying that someone “asked” for it because they were drinking, I’m talking about how and when does someone who seems to be able to give consent “lose the ability to give consent” and not be held accountable for their actions and decisions when if they had gone and done something else stupid while drunk we would still hold him or her accountable? You want to hold the author accountable for forcing a woman to a “rough third base” because he was drunk why can’t we want to hold another person accountable for consenting while he or she was inebriated?

          • But what if a person genuinely DIDN’T consent? Remember, people’s reflexes are slower when they’re inebriated, too. They are less likely to be able to fight someone off if they don’t want sex.

            “But officer, it doesn’t count that I took her wallet, because she was drunk and didn’t stop me from reaching into her pocket!” doesn’t work as a defense against theft, does it?

            We’re not talking about people who decide to have sex when they are drunk and later regret it. Those people generally have the decency to admit that they made a bad decision when they were drunk, and DON’T try to pretend that they were raped. False rape accusations of that sort are a lot more rare than many of us would like to believe.

            We are talking about people who were either unconscious, or who did NOT want sex but were too drunk to be able to fight off an attacker. If that is somehow not rape to you, I’m rather curious as to what your definition of “rape” entails.

            • False rape accusations are at what, 2-10%? That’s statistically significant for every person to worry about when having sex, will he/she falsely accuse me of rape? 1 in 50 to 1 in 10 chance of a rape accusation being falsely used. If it was 0.001% then sure it wouldn’t really be a large fear but 2-10% is pretty significant. The gall of some people to try act like false accusations are not a significant threat is fucking pathetic, even at 1% they would be so common to cause serious concern. But maybe I am different in not liking 1 in 100 people dragged to court or even tainted by an accusation from false pretenses.

              We need to both treat real rape seriously but also treat false accusations seriously, they’re both a very real fear for people regardless of how common they occur. I myself both fear being raped and falsely accused of rape, it’s in the back of my mind and makes me try my best to pick a sexual partner who is trustworthy and won’t use rape accusation as a weapon nor someone who will rape me. After seeing what happens in the Duke Lacross team case it’s pretty clear what happens when it hits the media. FRA’s may be rare but so is being bitten by a snake, but I still walk fucking carefully near long grass. Hell I hate being outside in storms yet FRA’s are probably far more common than lightning strikes.

              That said how does anyone prove the third base victim consented or didn’t? If she was trying to push him away, sure it’s rape. If she wasn’t enthusiastic, sure it was most likely rape, but if she consented whilst blacked out then what happens? It becomes a he said, she said and at the very least the author needs to stop having sex when so drunk, or with people who are so drunk but the chances are he raped her. She sounds like she remembered the event so I don’t think she blacked out, so there is no need to hold her accountable for consenting because she didn’t consent which makes him a rapist. I may have overlooked any facts, brain is all studied out and is on mush for the holidays so take this with a grain of salt.

            • A 2-10% false rape accusation statistic does NOT mean that EVERY TIME YOU HAVE SEX there’s a 1 in 50 or 1 in 10 chance of a rape accusation being falsely used. You do understand that right? That would only work if you got accused of rape every time you had sex…

            • Yes I understand that. What sticks in my mind is if she is the one who will lie about abuse when scorned. She may be a great partner, or she may be an abusive person who’ll use rape, or the threat of falsely accusing rape for whatever reason. There was a comment on here from a guy who had a woman say she’d claim rape if he didn’t have sex with her, and she raped him.

              Most likely a partner will not try to claim rape at all, or falsely accuse but it does happen and just as people are afraid to walk the streets alone, see snakes and other things that can cause harm this is something that does bother some men. I’ve known people who I wouldn’t put that type of action past them, people who want to hurt others via whatever means necessary. Yes they’re far rarer than rape victims but it’s still something to worry about, just like I have the fear of crashing in the back of my mind when driving.

        • Thank-you for the answer! The part that really scared me was of the blackout drunk, what I was afraid could happen is they appeared at most tipsy but I really do hope blackout level drunk is visible and you know they aren’t ok vs tipsy where you both are tipsy, enthusiastically have sex and everything is ok as in the first example. My biggest fear would be not noticing they are more drunk, if for some reason they aren’t stumbling drunk but appear tipsy yet mentally they can’t consent at all and I am under the impression we’re both tipsy and just having consenting sex. So I realllllly hope blackout and anything like that never occurs when a person is visibly less drunk than they are!

          I am that nervous about consent that I ask often, I’ve heard it’s unromantic to ask every step of the way (do you wanna kiss, do you wanna do this, do that) but until I can be more certain of consent I’ll continue to do so for each little bit vs less often but at least once per encounter or whatever is necessary to ensure consent.

    • As much as I wish I could agree that “Consensual grey areas” are just a myth, I can’t. I understand where you’re coming from, and where the majority of other commentators are coming from, and I understand that for you this is coming from your experience. My own experience is the reason I have a hard time accepting that there is no such thing as “Consensual grey areas.”

      During my very early brushes with gender equality issues I got into a discussion about consent with a friend. During our discussion she asserted “Everyone loves a little drunk sex” and then a short while later said “you can’t consent if you’re drunk and saying that as your defense is ‘victim blaming.'” I asked her to explain these conflicting statements and our discussion dissolved into words like “mansplaning” and “male privilege,” etc; I never got my question answered.

      Now, I understand that this and following examples I’m going to give are anecdotal and not based on data or provide any definitive measurement of “proof” for “consensual gray areas,” and we should always be careful to check for false-consensus bias when referring to our own experience, what they do illustrate is that things are not always black and white.

      Have you ever seen someone who is blackout drunk? They can, while not always, look and act as though they are awake, complete complicated tasks like dancing, playing drinking games, carry on conversations, and yes even participate in sex. I know because I’ve seen it personally and because being in a fraternity in college we had to attend risk management and alcohol awareness seminars on a yearly basis. I myself have had girls who anyone watching would have said that they were “consenting,” rubbing up on me, touching me, grinding on me, who I found out later were actually blacked out and I silently thanked myself for staying sober and following my rule of never having sex with someone who’s been drinking. If it’s hard for a sober person to tell when someone is past the point of consent, what about for someone who has also been drinking.

      I’m not talking about jumping on someone or forcing yourself into someone who is passed out or sleeping (which is very different from being just drunk or blacked out,) or holding a knife to someone.

      What I think is terrifying is that the message I keep seeing passed around is “If someone says that they were raped then they were raped” and “If someone says you raped them then you probably raped them.” This scares me because along with this I have noticed a tendency (again, beware potential consensus bias) for certain voices that tell people how they should reflect on their experiences.

      I have a friend who asserts that she was sexually assaulted by her last boyfriend. She had previously told him what she felt her boundaries were and he agreed. This friend also had a history of sleepwalking, and had not told her boyfriend. It was dark, she was stressed out, they were sleeping in the same bed, and she (she says in her sleep) initiated intimate activity. Her boyfriend didn’t know she was asleep and thought she had decided to re-define her boundaries, and when she woke up in the middle of it she understandably freaked out and started blaming him for breaking her trust, and broke up with him the next day. Now I completely understand why she would feel freaked out and weird and she has the right to decide that she doesn’t want to be with him or trust him, and where I have the problem is that now, a year later, it has turned into “he sexually assaulted me.”

      I have another friend and about three years ago she was dating a guy with whom she lost her virginity. The way she originally told the story after they broke up was that she originally told him she didn’t want to have sex and that he was pushy, but not abusive, and eventually she finally agreed to ‘get it over with.’ Is that a bad reason to have sex? Sure, I could see that. Was it less than enthusiastic sex? Yes. Now after some time spent with an on-campus feminist group she now says that she was raped by coercion. The guy never threatened her, he never talked her down or attacked her ego for not wanting to have sex, and he didn’t pull the “if you loved me you would sleep with me” guilt trip, what he did was frequently bring up the desire to have sex with her and openly expressed that he was bummed she didn’t want to.

      Was either of my friends really sexually abused or raped? Some people would say my first friend was sexually abused and put the onus on her boyfriend for not making sure that she was actually awake when she got on top of him and started initiating in the middle of the night. Some people would say that my other friend was raped because she only said yes because she “felt pushed into it.” I love my friends, I feel for the hurt and anxiety they’ve gone through, and I’m still going to call shenanigans on them and this new trend that tries to tell people how they should evaluate their experiences when they previously did not evaluate them in that way. Were they both in crummy situations and do they have a right to be upset or hurt, yes they do, but to go around claiming “rape victim” because someone else stuck the idea that they are a victim into their heads, say that the guys in these situations in rapists just because “the girl said so,” or insist that there is no such thing as a grey involving consent is plain wrong.

    • Jonathan G says:

      “Consensual grey areas” are just another rape myth for people who want to continue on the path of their own hedonism regardless of the harm to others that this creates.

      Bullshit.

      Pardon my French, but the above is just another example of proscriptive political correctness, which is designed to shut down discussion by shaming anybody who’d dare hold a different view. Myriad consensual grey areas pop to mind instantly when I think about it:

      #1) White: Two 21-year-olds have enthusiastic, consensual sex. Black: Two 12-year-olds have an enthusiastic, consensual sexual encounter. (They might have wanted to do it, but they’re too young and their brains haven’t developed the ability to properly weigh long-term consequences.)
      Grey: Two 16-year-olds have enthusiastic, consensual sex. Do they have the maturity to consent in an adult, informed capacity? Who can say for sure?

      #2) I have a friend who cared for a mentally-disabled man for many years. He had the intellectual and emotional maturity of a 12-year-old, yet he had a fully adult sex drive. If he enthusiastic, consensual sex with a woman, would she be a rapist because he couldn’t meaningfully consent? What if she were also mentally-disabled?

      #3) This happened: Years ago, a friend invited me over to her apartment to hang out as she was on the outs with her boyfriend and needed some company. We watched a movie, and she started putting the moves on me. It made me terribly uncomfortable because the voice in the back of my mind was saying, “No!” I was inexperienced and nervous, not so much in the mood, and she was not my type. But plenty of other voices influenced me, the ones from our culture which say: “A real man is always ready for sex.” And, “Sexual attractiveness to women is a measure of a man’s value.” And, “A woman’s sexuality is a gift she bestows upon (unworthy) men.” Yeah, I was young and stupid, so I followed her lead and we ended up having (awkward, fumbling, unprotected) sex. I felt queasy about the whole thing, and quickly lost touch with her. Did she rape me? I say no. I could’ve stopped it at any time without repercussions. The coercion came from cultural sources, not from her. But other people will certainly say yes.

      #4) This also happened: Another friend told me that her first time, she didn’t want to have sex. She really liked her boyfriend and he was a perfect gentleman who always took “no” for an answer, but he wanted to have sex. She was afraid that if she kept refusing that he would dump her for somebody who did want to have sex, so eventually she said “yes.” Is that truly consent?
      (What if, hypothetically, he had pressured her by complaining about not having sex? If he had threatened to dump her if she wouldn’t have sex with him?)

      There ya go, at least four consensual grey areas. Please don’t tell me they don’t exist.

  25. Some of the commenters here seem to be conflating two different issues (not everything is either black or white, but not all shades of grey are the same): one is someone who would want to hook up, but when they’re sober they don’t because they’re too inhibited (or because of social norms against doing that when sober), so they decide to drink a couple drinks to overcome their inhibitions (or so that they will be excused for breaking said social norms) while staying able to say No if they really want to, and the next morning they will remember everything; another is someone who for whatever reason drinks more than they had planned or than they can handle, passes out, is taken advantage of, and the next morning they will remember nothing. While there’s a large grey area between the two, it’s clear to me that the latter should be labelled “rape” and had better be eradicated from the face of the earth as soon as possible, whereas the former… well, it wouldn’t be necessary in an ideal world, but in this world where sexuophobic social norms and people with inhibitions do exist it’s an acceptable workaround.

    • Nick, mostly says:

      You’re missing a third: someone who doesn’t pass out but also doesn’t remember anything the next morning. That’s the difference between “blackout drunk” and “passed-out drunk.”

      • 50 yr old Dads are still passing out, blacking out, and causing havoc in their lives. Alcoholism is symptom of bigger picture in abuse. Why is this writer abusing himself with alcohol? Why is buzz of addiction preferable to consciousness? Was writer hurt at earlier date, breaking down conscience? He’s a good writer. Perhaps writing will continue to work for him.

      • That’s in the grey area, but it’s a very dark, nearly black shade of grey, because the threshold above which I won’t remember anything the next morning is usually higher than the threshold above which it’s obvious to other people that I can’t think straight even if I wanted to and so my ‘consent’ isn’t valid. But if I said Yes and remember saying that, I think I don’t get to say I was raped no matter how much I had drunk (so long as I had decided to drink on my own accord): if I know that if I drink too much I might have sex with someone with whom I otherwise wouldn’t, and I still drink around them…

        • I have a hard time setting the bar at “and remember saying that,” because if the measure for whether or not someone who is drunk or high is responsible for his or her actions stops at blackout, then we should also stop holding people who are blackout drunk accountable when they break someone else’s property, get in a car and drive, do something stupid that gets one of their friends killed, or decide that the person passed out with the door to his or her dorm open is an acceptable sexual partner.

          If someone is unable to stand on their own, semi-comatose, beyond the point where you they can speak, or passed out, well then yes they’ve reached the point where they can no longer consent. If someone’s together enough in their blacked out stupor to say “Yes let’s do it” or to climb up on top of the other person, and then mid-way through they come out of the fog or wake up the next morning vaguely remembering the act and not giving consent, sorry, no they weren’t raped. If they’re able to decide to drink and they’re still actively making a decision to participate, albeit probably a poor decision, and we expect them to be responsible any other stupid decision they could have made that night, then I expect them to take responsibility here too and not start running around crying ‘rape;’ obviously this does not apply if they were forced to take the drugs or alcohol against their own free will.

          As an aside, it’s amazing what people can do while blacked out; yes it’s pretty clear that they’re drunk, but you can’t necessarily distinguish when someone is just really drunk and blacked out people will drive, play video games, have sex, run around, and otherwise act like they’re just really drunk. This is because the person isn’t unconscious while they are blacked out; it’s that their brain is no longer storing memories. Black outs usually do end with the person passing out, but I’ve also had friends who come out of the daze never having fallen asleep, they just suddenly go “Wait, how did we get here?” and they can’t remember where they were or what they did for the previous two hours.

        • Just a metalhead says:

          “…the threshold above which I won’t remember anything the next morning is usually higher than the threshold above which it’s obvious to other people that I can’t think straight even if I wanted to and so my ‘consent’ isn’t valid.”

          Obvious to sober people, maybe (and even then, they must know what drunk people look like). But people rarely get passed out drunk in a group of sober people. They do it amongst other people who are drunk, with their judgment impaired. To a sober person, a passed out drunk person may look way passed out, to a person who is drunk, that person may look just drunk like them and not passed out. You can’t reasonably expect them to be able to tell the difference and then call them “rapists” if they don’t.

          Quite frankly, I’ve had a friend who was passed out drunk who got home in his car after a party. He got there safely, fortunately, and when sober he knew that was completely stupid and illegal. But if he had been arrested while going there, should he have been able to defend himself by saying “I was so drunk I don’t remember anything”? No. He shouldn’t. He chose to impair his judgment that much and made a bad decision, and he would own that decision nonetheless.

          Similarly, if someone gets so drunk that they are in an altered state and in that altered state they enthusiastically have sex with other people, they don’t get to cry rape. They made the decision to impair their judgment, and while their judgment was impaired they made a decision to have sex with someone they would otherwise not have had it with, they OWN that decision. It’s not rape. If someone is passed out drunk and fucks a sleeping woman, they are committing rape, saying that they “don’t remember” isn’t a defense. Likewise, if you’re passed out drunk and you choose to have sex with someone, you don’t get to retroactively describe this as rape because you “don’t remember”.

          I know that in some places the law says otherwise, but those laws are wrong, I mean it’s so stupid that if two passed out drunk people have sex, then by that definition both have raped the other. How does that work?

          Now, I don’t get this drunk and I wouldn’t have sex with someone who was visibly very drunk and whose only reason for wanting to have sex with me was their drunken state (and how sad would that be for me, really?). I don’t take drugs and stay away from that whole scene, so I am not impacted directly by all of this. I’d suggest to people to avoid that situation entirely, but if it still happens, then I don’t recognize it as rape, the same way I don’t absolve people who crashed their cars while drunken driving.

          • I think in many of these cases you’re referring to Blacked out drunk, not “Passed out” drunk. If someone is passed out it means they are unconscious, i.e. sleeping. Someone who is “passed out” cannot get into a car and drive (although someone could get into a car while drunk and “pass out” while driving, but that means they fall into a state of unconsciousness.) Black out drunk is where someone is still conscious, and their brains stops recording memories, so they do not remember all or part of what they were doing during that time.

            A “passed out” drunk cannot consent because they are asleep, a “black out” drunk could consent at the time and not remember it the following morning. The only way a “passed out” drunk could be convicted for drunk driving is if he or she had gotten into the vehicle and were already drunk before they passed out.

  26. Not forgivable, not acceptable, not a gray area at all. I would be the last person to argue that sex-while-drunk = rape, but this is not a case of people who made bad choices while drinking, or of an honest miscommunication. He tries to frame it that way, but his conclusion proves that it isn’t so.

    Making a mistake is one thing. Recognizing that under certain circumstances you won’t be able to control yourself and are likely to harm others, and continuing to put yourself in those circumstances, is not making a mistake, it is exactly the same as – it IS – harming them deliberately. If you know you’re likely to drive while drunk, or to beat someone up, it’s your responsibility to make sure that *can’t possibly happen* before you have so much of a sip of beer. Same with this.

    • Agree. Writer is reaching out to end denial and fear. Aids is lifetime sentence.
      Value health or lose it. Are you raping yourself?

    • Walks like a duck. Sounds like he wants to change, as he is aware of addiction to artificial world of sleeze.

  27. “I’d rather risk murder than quit drunk-driving”

    • Not lettin’ you get away with that. It’s just as valid if I change it to:
      “I’d rather risk murder than hang up my cell phone while driving.”

      Or:
      “I’d rather risk murder than to get enough sleep before driving.”

      Or:
      “I’d rather risk murder than slow down in a school zone because I’m running late.”

      Or even:
      “I’d rather risk murder than walk or bike to my destination.”

      All of these are distressingly common, and all are distressingly acceptable socially. So if it’s not the risk imposed on other people that makes partying “bad,” what is it?

      • Hexagrammos says:

        Being socially acceptable doesn’t make them right.

        I don’t see how your examples refute the point at all.

        • Jonathan G says:

          A fascinating argument. How do you define “right” as distinct from “socially-acceptable,” and if you do, then how is “right” relevant in any way to the real world?

          That said, my argument is not to defend the author, but to point out that the commenters damning the author have in all likelihood done things objectively worse. Beams and motes, and all that.

  28. If you know you’ll rape people when you’re drunk and you drink with them anyway, it’s exactly the same as if you raped them sober. In fact, the alcohol is probably just an excuse.

  29. This guy slammed a girl up against the wall and shoved his dick into her and he thinks somehow this is the same as having sex with someone when he was blacked out drunk. People consent to sex while being blacked out drunk. But this guy apparently can’t handle getting high without assaulting people, and needs to sober up or be incarcerated.

    • Beth, everyone here is pretty clear that the incident you are referring to was outright wrong with no gray area attached. It was clearly violent and the girl was not given a chance to consent and did not want it at the time.

      The comments regarding the blacked out drunk started, I believe, in response to his question as to whether or not he had been raped. The discussion then continued to further ask “when does someone lose the ability to provide consent while drinking?” It is an important point of discussion because there is a strong stream of thought (this may be consensus bias thanks to the social circles I hang out in and not the larger view by society), that if someone is drunk then they cannot consent, which makes having sex with that someone rape even if they said they wanted it at the time. The problem with this view is that rape usually discussed in black and white terms, and these people state that if someone consents while they are blackout drunk they can’t really consent, so that means that having sex with someone who is blacked out counts as rape, and if anyone says “well she had been drinking so she’s responsible for her actions” they’re told that they are “victim blaming.” People who hold this view make no distinction between someone who is still conscious while drinking and someone who is passed out or incapacitated and psychically incapable of responding; they believe that both cases count as rape.

      • Beth Tully says:

        KC, yes, I get that, and the author of this article is hiding behind that logic to pretend that he thinks he’s been raped. Which I do not buy, He does not feel violated he is full of shit. Regardless, I entirely don’t agree that it is up to other people to judge whether or not I’m too drunk to consent. I’m responsible for my own behavior. If I drink too much and make bad decisions that later I don’t remember, that’s on me. If I’m passed out, that’s another issue, You literally can not give consent when not awake.

        • Martin Nash says:

          I think that questioning whether somebody has really been raped in a froum is crossing some sort of line no? Agree with the guy or not you take every bad thing he says at face value, then doubt his vulnerabilities?

          This is why we need to hear the words of ALL people. You hear him admit to being a rapist and want him to be a 2 dimensional bogie man who you can spew bile at and point to as a stereotype. Hate him by all means, but accept that, like all of us, he has other depths and some of these are worthy of empathy.

          I believe the whole point of publishing this was to help us understand how “normal” people end up doing bad things. You have to get over the fact you don’t like him and read the whole of what he has to say. It is obvious he judges himself (maybe not as harshly as some wish he did) and your further condemnation does nothing to further the debate, it only sets it back to square one.

          If we were to publish an article in which a woman who perform FGM discussed how she was raped, where would you stand then? Is the evil she does enough to diminish her rape too?

    • Jonathan G says:

      “This guy slammed a girl up against the wall and shoved his dick into her [...]”

      Hmm, you didn’t actually read the article, did you?

      • Beth Tully says:

        @Jonathan G, Excuse you, quoting from the article. ” I pressed her up against a wall and… well.” Afterwards, she called it rape. So yes, that’s exactly what happened.

        • Jonathan G says:

          “Pressed” is not “slammed” and “third-base” is not “shoved his dick into her.” The denotation and connotation are different in each case.

          • Nick, mostly says:

            When I was growing up, “third base” involved someone’s hand touching someone else’s genitals. I hear the kids these days refer to oral as third base (but I don’t know if that’s true).

            I can imagine an interpretation of what the author wrote as being he pressed her against the wall (restricting her movements) and put his hand in her pants (skirt, etc). I can see how she might say that was “rape” since he forcefully did something to her without her consent.

            Traditionally, from a legal perspective, we would consider that sexual assault rather than rape. As this article has illustrated, there is no general consensus on what does and does not constitute consent, let alone rape, and we appear to be no closer at forming one.

Trackbacks

  1. [...] “I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying” is an addict’s story. [...]

  2. [...] but it is something I write about frequently…. This comes across the transom this morning- I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying Kind of a despicable article which could also have been titled “I’d Rather Commit Rape [...]

  3. [...] I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying Finally, Date Rape Ads That Put The Onus On The Raper Poissonnes sans Bicyclettes A school reveals it has a “Fantasy Slut League” No big deal. It was just a high school’s secret “Fantasy Slut League.” One in which female students, “unbeknownst to most of them,” would be drafted and “male students [would] earn points for documented engagement in sexual activities” with them. One in which “participation often involved pressure/manipulation by older students that included alcohol to impair judgment/control and social demands to be popular, feel included and attractive to upper classmen.” La culture du viol décrit un <b>environnement social et médiatique dans lequel les violences sexuelles trouvent des justifications, des excuses, sont simplement banalisées, voire acceptées. </b> C’est par exemple un environnement qui culpabilise les femmes quant à leurs tenues et leur apparence. Dire (ou penser) qu’une femme victime de viol qui se balade seule le soir en talons et en mini- jupe “l’a bien cherché”, c’est faire peser sur la victime la responsabilité du crime – car le viol est un crime, n’est-ce pas (ce petit rappel est important pour la suite). <b>Remarquez l’omniprésence, dans notre société, d’éléments appartenant à la culture du viol </b>. Le slut-shaming donc, pratiqué par les hommes et les femmes, en est un composant. On trouve également énormément de références dans le porno, où la domination absolue du mâle est récurremment mise en scène. [...]

  4. [...] Over the past couple of weeks, the Good Men Project has run a series of articles about men who have not felt sufficient pull towards the right thing. To be precise, they have raped. It began with Alyssa Royse’s now notorious piece entitled Nice Guys Commit Rape Too. I strongly criticised the piece here, as others did here and here, and in the face of criticism, and presumably in the hope it will act as a trump card in the argument, the GMP editors have made the extraordinary, offensive and entirely irresponsible decision to publish a piece by a self-confessed unconvicted rapist.   [...]

  5. [...] me in the casket. If you want public stories about the assaulted and assaulters, read this: I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying by Anonymous for The Good Men Project “With what I’ve learned as an adult, I’m [...]

  6. [...] And then The Good Men Project published a piece called “I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying.” [...]

  7. [...] The various articles that have appeared here on The Good Men Project regarding the topic of consent have started an intense and necessary conversation. I was originally satisfied to observe it from the sidelines—that is, until I learned that colleagues and contributors were targeted personally and, in my view, unfairly. I’m responding primarily to those who’ve taken issue with The Good Men Project’s decision to print the anonymous article titled I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Give Up Partying. [...]

  8. [...] one whose ‘mistake‘ involved raping a formerly flirtatious woman while she slept and another whose excessive partying and drinking convinced him that “a certain amount of rape” was [...]

  9. [...] extremely thought-provoking articles: I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying, and This is Why We Published a Rapist’s Story. Cancel [...]

  10. [...] piece at GMP, by Anonymous was not just bad, it was atrocious. Words fail [...]

  11. [...] The Good Men Project found and published a piece by a man who lives the partying lifestyle and appar… It’s very hard to read, not the least reason is because if he was a person discussing partying and driving (and how crashed cars, property damage and injuries were part of the price to pay) we’d all want his license revoked and his hide thrown in a rehab center/jail/counseling/home arrest for the potential damage to himself and others. Flat out. We’d not be worrying or wondering about sex, good times or however mostly because we don’t see sex in the same way we see drunk driving. [...]

  12. [...] Men Project’s decision to publish two recent pieces on rape: “Nice Guys Commit Rape Too” and “I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying.” The second piece is written by a ‘hard partier’ who admits to ignoring the concept of good [...]

  13. [...] Don’t want a few deaths (or sexual assaults) to get in the way of our lifestyle choice, right? [...]

  14. [...] I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying — The Good Men Project. Rate this:Share this:TwitterEmailPrintMoreStumbleUponDiggTumblrPinterestRedditFacebookGoogle +1LinkedInLike this:LikeBe the first to like this. This entry was posted in Uncategorized by jbizeau. Bookmark the permalink. [...]

  15. [...] to top it off, the next week The Good Men Project published an equally horrifying piece titled, “I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying.” The writer also stated that he’s “pretty sure I’m technically a rapist,” and that “In the [...]

  16. [...] Jill/Feministe/The Good Men Project brouhaha over TGMP’s two recent articles on rape (here and here), which included a ‘rapist’s perspective’ on the issue of consent. Jill Filipovic (and Yes [...]

  17. [...] and what constitutes rape.  The Good Men Blog was ripped to shreds for publishing two pieces, one by a man who was clearly an alcoholic and drug addict and who seemed to think that rape is an acceptable consequence, for both men and women, of [...]

  18. [...] solution? Escapism via partying. We’d hit the scene: someone’s house, a club, a restaurant, a music gig. We’d get to the [...]

  19. [...] least one person who drinks too much way too early and makes an idiot of themselves, and of course there’s always the potential of ending up in bed with someone at the end of the [...]

  20. [...] really take issue with that often, The Good Men Project (GMP). Yesterday, GMP published an admittedly fairly nauseating article by a man who has come to realize that in the course of his life of partying, he has likely [...]

  21. [...] as we have over the GMP’s decision to publish the account of an anonymous drug user who wrote, I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying. I defended this decision, saying that we must listen not just to the victims, but to the [...]

  22. [...] me in the casket. If you want public stories about the assaulted and assaulters, read this: I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying by Anonymous for The Good Men Project “With what I’ve learned as an adult, I’m [...]

  23. [...] to notice the existence of the mindset held by individuals like the anonymous author of “I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying.” My party crowd at the time consisted of pseudo-hippy ravers and whether the party was held [...]

  24. [...] Alcohol and drugs dissolve clear boundaries of consent. Mostly that works out okay. Sometimes it doesn't.  [...]

  25. [...] began to notice the existence of the mindset held by individuals like the anonymous author of “I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying.” My party crowd at the time consisted of pseudo-hippy ravers and whether the party was held at a [...]

  26. [...] article on GMP I’d Rather Risk Rape Than Quit Partying, The Good Men Project, December [...]

  27. […] a while ago about an article called “I’d Rather Risk Rape than Quit Partying” (http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/id-rather-risk-rape-than-quit-partying/) and again, what our obligations are to other bodies and our own in regard to consumption of […]