Is Fake Really Better?

 

"Eternal Idol" by Rodin, Fogg Museum of Art

What does the rapid increase in breast augmentation say about all of us?

A few weeks ago we ran into a relative who had been going through a difficult patch in her life.  What I saw made my heart sink. Our relative had gotten breast augmentation surgery since the last time I had seen her. For whatever reason it just smacked me in the face because I had thought she was such an attractive woman—she carried herself with the kind of grace that makes a person look even more beautiful, not less, with age. So it really upset me that she had felt the need to change herself and, in my view, look less real and frankly to my eye less attractive.

This set my mind off: What the hell is going on in our country that women think they need fake breasts to be okay with their bodies? What does that say about women? What does that say about men? And what is going on with gender when fake is so much more adored than something real?

♦◊♦

While some experiments with breast augmentation date back to the 19th century, the first widespread use was during the 1940s, when Japanese prostitutes began to have their breasts injected with substances such as paraffin in the hope that American servicemen stationed there after the war would favor them with larger breasts.

Fast-forward to today. Over 300,000 women and teenage girls underwent surgery last year to have their breasts enlarged with silicone or saline implants, and more than 80,000 more had reconstruction after being treated for cancer. According to Diana Zuckerman, president of the National Research Center for Women & Families, the number of cosmetic implants has tripled over the last decade. And 40,000 with implants underwent removal last year.

"Fire & Ice" by Pablo Solomon

♦◊♦

The CEO of a chain of strip clubs told me that 90 percent of his dancers have breast enhancements. But, he said, “It is more about the stripper building her self-confidence and feeling good about herself, and less about the demand from the customer. Usually if the girl is unhappy with the size or shape of her breasts, she will opt to have implant surgery to be better able to compete with the other entertainers in the industry to make more money.”

I asked him about the women who get what appear to be particularly grotesque large implants and the motivation behind that. “Feature entertainers are performers who have established themselves in the industry by appearing in adult magazines and films, therefore receiving credits. They are paid to travel to gentlemen’s clubs to perform as a headline entertainer on stage. Since they really need to stand out from the ‘house dancers,’ they usually opt to go larger than normal.”

♦◊♦

I asked a bunch of guys what they thought about breast implants in order to get a random sampling of what men really think.

John is a 46-year-old business owner who has lived in Las Vegas for 21 years, and a self-admitted “breast snob.” He has watched the dramatic increase of breast implants in Vegas and, from talking to other guys, believes he is in the minority—but he is a strong proponent of natural breasts. “To me it’s all about the way real breasts look, move, and especially how they feel,” he told me. “I mean, with my girl on top, real boobs swaying and bouncing, life is good! While fakes may look great to fill out clothing, they just don’t look right naked.”

Of the guys I talked to, in fact, a majority asserted that they found natural breasts more attractive than breasts that had been surgically augmented. Men who spent a lot of time in strip clubs or watching porn more often admitted to liking enhanced breasts. Like a 26-year-old acquaintance in New York said of fake breasts, “They look better, feel better, and you can have more fun with ‘em!” His theory, beyond just finding the larger, artificially enhanced breasts sexy, is that a woman who has surgery actually has more confidence in herself, opinions be damned. In his mind, breast enhancement shows a woman cares about her appearance.

Dave, 52 and from St. Louis, has spent plenty of time in strip clubs. He disagrees; he has always looked for women with natural breasts. “Even if they were petite,” he tells me, “I sought their attention and gave them mine over some gal with big, hard, stretched-out fake tits. Those are the worst. Why did I go? I love looking at women and enjoyed receiving their attention. The feeling of a naked or near-naked woman in your lap is never a bad thing in my book. My taste in porn is the same as in a club—I am consistent. I hate bad, big boob jobs. I also do not get turned on by big, hanging, natural udders.”

Then there are men like Bob in Buffalo, New York, whose wife has one real breast; the other was taken in a mastectomy due to breast cancer. His wife’s breasts were small, and in order to get the unaffected breast to match the breast that was removed she would have had to have enhanced both breasts. The surgery sounded so grueling to them that she opted not to have it. “I think it’s very sad that so many women are getting breast implants,” Bob told me. “Regardless of what people think, it is a horrible surgery. I think most women are mistaken in their belief that it makes them more attractive and it saddens me that they are wasting their time, money, and risking their health for something that I don’t think is true.”

♦◊♦

Jenna T. is a 25-year-old senior account executive at a public relations firm. She has always had a tall and lean body type which, she told me, “is wonderful, but I unfortunately was not blessed with breasts, so I have always felt disproportional and self-conscious about having nothing there.”

After extensive consultation with her mom, who she calls her best friend, and her sister-in-law, Jenna decided to have sub-glandular silicone breast augmentation last month. “I am unbelievably happy. I feel more confident, and finally fit into my clothes,” she reported afterwards.

Jenna spoke eloquently about how important it is to feel good in your own skin and how she thinks that if there is anything holding you back from being confident and happy, there’s nothing wrong with changing it—with or without plastic surgery. She admitted that some male perceptions of the perfect female body include big boobs, but she maintains that she got her surgery for herself and only herself.

“I certainly do not believe in the ‘perfect body,’ nor do I think it’s necessary for women to get a breast augmentation solely for attention; however, if it is something that will make you a happier person inside and out, I don’t think women or men should be judgmental about it.”

♦◊♦

Pablo Solomon is a 63-year-old sculptor of some note who has been studying women’s bodies now for four decades, in his studio just north of Austin, Texas. He is internationally known for his drawings and sculptures of dancers, many of whom are nude.

“I prefer available,” he jokes when I ask him about his preference in breasts. But he goes on to tell me that he is finding it harder and harder to find women with real breasts who do figure work, which is his strong preference.

“As an artist,” he says, “I look for models who exhibit a variety of looks. Some of my favorite models have small breasts. The look that I want is for the model to be fit and balanced with that something special, which is often hard to define.”

Pablo has been married to the same woman for 35 years, a model and then account executive for Diane Von Furstenberg, Revlon, and Ralph Lauren. She did a lot of swimwear and lingerie modeling and had always had “great legs, an hourglass figure and perfect butt” according to Pablo. Her breasts are real. She not only has hired many models as an executive but also has always gotten the models for Pablo. “She will tell you that even the women who are born absolutely beautiful often have poor self-images. I have had art models who were virtually perfect but ruined their balance by over doing the breast size,” Pablo says.

Pablo does commissions for elite clientele, often men with mistresses. Almost all of these women have fake breasts. One major big shot for whom Pablo created sculptures sent all his mistresses to the same plastic surgeon to be molded into identical clones, with outrageous breasts for their slim figures. This always makes him sad.

“To me,” he says, “attractiveness stems from the woman being fit, with poise, good posture, a balanced look and yes—a fun personality.”

"Nude Figure Study" by Pablo Solomon

♦◊♦

Grace Gold, 28, author of a book titled The Boob Job Bible, is a journalist covering the beauty industry. Jene’ Luciani, 33, is a well-known style correspondent and author of The Bra Book. Both have had breast augmentation. They are both experts in female beauty and style in general but have faced the issue of breast surgery in their own lives for different reasons.

Grace was a competitive figure skater throughout her childhood and teenage years. She had a strong sense of self and healthy relationships with boyfriends, but from a young age she was inspired by the glamour and femininity of old Hollywood. “I’ve always surrounded myself with images of beauties from that golden era, from Marilyn Monroe to Jane Russell to Sophia Loren,” she told me.

Even though she felt like there was nothing wrong with her 34B cup, she dreamed of something different for ten years before she had 310 cc of volume added when she was 25. “I said to myself, ‘You only have one life to live. Why not just do it?’”

Jene’ always had a “dirty little secret” she hid below her shirt. As a teen she developed tubular breast syndrome, “something that you don’t often hear about but that’s quite common in women,” she told me. “One of my breasts was over a cup size smaller than the other and took on a cone-like shape.” This medical issue caused Jene’ to be insecure and have profound body image problems.

Finally, when she was 21 and working full-time for NBC News, she decided to have surgery to lift one breast and insert saline implants into both. “I don’t think I could have lived my entire life feeling the way I did as a teen—I always felt like a mutant because of the way my breasts were. It was liberating to ‘fix’ them,” she says now.

Jene’ used to be embarrassed to show her breasts to boys, but with a bit of science she is more comfortable now. She ignores the snide remarks she would hear made by men who didn’t understand the emotional duress that caused her to go ahead with the surgery. “Women as sexual beings,” she says, “feel a lot of pressure to have perfect bodies and perfect breasts. This unattainable idea of perfection is dangerous, especially to young girls.”

Grace agrees. “Living in this society, aren’t we all influenced by male perceptions of female beauty? Look at ads, movies, magazines, television, performers, etc.,” she says. “Women are exceedingly presented through the male viewpoint. Even in women’s magazines, you’ll see sexed-up ads and photos that could easily slip right into a men’s magazine like GQ or Maxim. So I definitely think the male perception of female beauty pervades every visual aspect of American society. But with that said, I never had any trouble dating with a small cup, and I don’t even think it’s a significant factor that men take into consideration when feeling attracted to a woman. I didn’t get a boob job to get more dates; I did it to feel the glamour and sense of femininity that I had come to associate with a full cup.”

♦◊♦

In all of this I had to re-evaluate my preconceived notions of breast implants as the source of evil on Planet Earth. I do find the acceleration of the procedures alarming and get pretty sick to my stomach when I see more and more women with plastic surgery that, at least to my eyes, is grotesque.

My view on the aggregate level has not changed that much. Kind of like with the prevalence of porn in our country, I still firmly believe that we should all take the obsession with fake over real when it comes to gender relations as a red flag. It shows that we aren’t really willing or able to deal with each other directly—unfiltered, middle-aged body to middle-aged body. We would prefer the fantasy, whether on the Web or in the breast (or, when it comes to strippers, both at the same time).

But when it comes to each individual woman’s decision as to what to do with her own body, my judgments really have no bearing whatsoever. Who the hell am I to pass judgment on Jenna the 25-year-old PR executive, or anyone else for that matter?

In the end, I think what scared me the most when I saw our relative and her new breasts was the impact of seeing so many women getting augmentation might have on my daughter, my sister, my wife and the other women who I hold dear. But having thought about it more, I now realize that a woman’s body is her own.  No man can tell her what to do with it.  Not even her father or her husband or her brother.

 

"The Prayer" by Pablo Solomon

 

…or if praying doesn’t work there is always this.

 

 

—gallery photo: ringoblu/Flickr

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About Tom Matlack

Tom Matlack is the co-founder of The Good Men Project. He has a 18-year-old daughter and 16- and 7-year-old sons. His wife, Elena, is the love of his life. Follow him on Twitter @TMatlack.

Comments

  1. Men overwhelmingly prefer natural breasts. Men don’t bear any responsibility for the plastic surgery that women chose to have done because guess what? Women are adults, just like men.

    • I’m completely against augmentation, but whether fake or natural, both men and women need to learn how to accept women as they are. I’m not bothered by men who have preferences, but men who press natural breasts on women are just as bad as men who press women to get augmentations. I also notice that men who say they prefer natural breasts prefer it for selfish reasons: they’re bouncy, soft, blah, blah, blah. They don’t prefer them for any reasons that have to do with women’s comfort.

      • Amber, you just have a low opinion of men and an over inflated opinion of women.

        If they prefer natural, they are bad, if they for some reason prefer fake they are bad, if they prefer natural because they feel and look better, they are bad.

        And in your book whats acceptable is men basing their preferences on what evers more comfortable for women, but in reality, I think you would find men with no minds of their own and like or don’t like things based on whats best for you pretty creepy and unattractive,

        For someone who claims to be a humanist and not a feminist, you come out with some very feministy things.

        • If they prefer natural, they are bad, if they for some reason prefer fake they are bad, if they prefer natural because they feel and look better, they are bad.
          I think that’s result of two forces at work.

          1. People who have a preference but then start to impose that preference on other people like its a requirement.

          2. People who perceieve someone’s preference as if it were a requirement.

  2. Margaret says:
  3. Thank you for this balanced article…I truly enjoyed reading it. :) Not everyone was born into the “ideal” body, but it’s what you make of it, right? I’ve met the kind of girls that have implants who sort of wear them like a badge and it seems to be the ruling force in their lives, and then I’ve met women who you wouldn’t know have implants because they didn’t get them for anyone else but themselves. I think that’s the difference in the way I feel about it. One side of the story makes me a little sick while the other side of the story makes me respectful of their very personal choice.

  4. I love natural breasts. Fake boobs are terrible. But my wife has always wanted breast augmentation surgery, and very well may get it someday. I’m against it because I think she looks perfect the way she is, but if she wants to do it then ultimately I’ll accept it and I’d never forbid her to do something just because I didn’t like it.

    But I don’t think men bear any responsibility for the increase of fake boobs. These are adult women with their own thoughts and opinions. They’re doing it, not men. I think you can easily subtract men from this whole equation.

  5. Daddy Files:
    But I don’t think men bear any responsibility for the increase of fake boobs. These are adult women with their own thoughts and opinions. They’re doing it, not men. I think you can easily subtract men from this whole equation.
    Agreed. Trying to hold men responsible for that would be like trying to hold women responsible for the advent of penis elargement junk emails.

    Personally I don’t care much about the size of a person’s breasts in and of themselves. Although I admit that I do notice their size in relation to the other parts of the person’s body but even then its not like its a deal breaker. Its a preference not a requirement.

  6. Clark Kent says:

    When the hell will women have to take full responsibility for the choices they make? Seems like every article on this site perpetuates this idea that the “evils of patriarchy”, and the “Male Gaze”, and male this and that etc. are the very least equally responsible for decisions that women make. You would think from reading this site that women had absolutely no agency whatsoever.

    Are women THAT insecure and easily influenced by male opinions?
    Are men THAT overbearing and hell bent on controlling every aspect of female existence?

    Hell no!

    Bottom line women who get augmentation for whatever reason CHOSE to do so. THAT person and ONLY THAT person opted to go under the knife.

    Also, where is this notion coming from that the majority of men like large or enhanced breast? Maybe, just maybe a large portion of the 300,000 women who opted to get augmentation last year thought THEMSELVES that bigger/augmented breast were better under their own volition.

    • That is not true. Sometimes it can mean someone’s career. Especially if you a dancer, model, in the service industry, or do anything related to ‘image’. It could be your economic livelihood.

      We don’t blame union workers for not being willing to work for 2 cents an hour like their competition across the world…

  7. Tom Matlack says:

    I am just going to dip my toe in here because Clark and other are making broad, untrue statements about the site and what we are trying to do. I personally have a pretty strong bias against breast augmentation as a phenomenon not only because fake over real isn’t something I find aesthetically pleasing in pretty much anything, but because as a father of a 17 year-old girl and wife of a 46 year-old women I am sensitive to the pressure the women in my life are under as they walk around a world that is dominated by porn, swimming pools populated by augmented breasts, and the like. I wrote the piece because I saw a women I care a lot about who got plastic surgery I really think out of a kind of despair that made her look, in my personal view, worse not better. It made me really sad. That’s why I decided to write the piece. What I found in doing the research is that like so many other things when it comes to gender there is no easy overall conclusion to be made about augmentation. And frankly in the end, yes, these are adult women making decisions about their own bodies for better or worse.

    But I don’t think this discussion somehow leaves men completely innocent nor do I think it is intended to highlight the evils of patriarchy. It was intended to present the issue in as balanced a way, from as many perspectives as I possibly could, to promote a thoughtful discussion.

    • Clark Kent says:

      I’m basing this response on this ^^^ particular response you’ve posted.

      If you and I and (I believe the majority) of the American male population find natural breast more aesthetically pleasing, where then is this pressure coming from for women to opt for augmentation? Also where is this obsession coming from? And, why is that obsession being insinuated as male-centric?

      Also, from your statement: “I wrote the piece because I saw a women I care a lot about who got plastic surgery I really think out of a kind of despair that made her look, in my personal view, worse not better. It made me really sad. That’s why I decided to write the piece.”

      Do you believe women (or the majority of) who do augment do so because of some sort of esteem/insecurity issue? Why isn’t as much credence given to the idea that women themselves choose to augment because THEY find it more attractive?

      No one would dare blame women for the “male enhancement” craze of the last decade or so. The vast majority of people would agree that it is due to male insecurities and not pressure from women saying bigger is better. Why can’t that same argument or logic be applied to breast augmentation?

      I think that’s where many people’s (or at least my) frustration comes from this article.

      • Tom Matlack says:

        “Do you believe women (or the majority of) who do augment do so because of some sort of esteem/insecurity issue? Why isn’t as much credence given to the idea that women themselves choose to augment because THEY find it more attractive?”

        Read the piece. I don’t think the women who got augmentation would say they did it because of insecurity in general. Many would say men had nothing to do with it. But what I came to having talked to a bunch of women who had implants and a bunch of guys who have all kinds of proclivities, and frequent strip clubs and porn and those who don’t, etc…is that you really can’t generalize. Just like I wouldn’t want to speak for all men on what it means to be good I really can’t say why all women, or even most women, get breast augmentation.

        All I said was taken as a whole the trend is troubling to me personally as I would like to believe that natural beauty is better than something that is artificial. That’s why I chose to use art for the piece because artists in general try to get at what is the essence of the human form, not some crazy cartoon character version. I also do think that the prevalence of porn and acceleration of breast augmentation are related. There has been quite a bit of research done which indicates that men who watch porn regularly, in general, become inclined towards cartoon style artificial breasts. Not everyone but more than the average population.

        Believe me I am not man bashing here. I am just trying to lay out there that breast augmentation is happening, it has a variety of reasons, and has real consequences, and its worth talking about.

        • Clark Kent says:

          Well I definitely appreciate the fact that you take time out to participate in discussions in the commenting section. Whether or not we agree on a certain issue it is refreshing that you make yourself available in such a way.

        • Tom: I’m curious about the porn angle.

          Why are we so quick to blame adult movies for society’s ills? What about actresses with boob jobs in mainstream movies? Or how about the fact that going under the knife for elective surgery is thought of as commonplace now? I think those things have much more to do with the prevalence of plastic surgery than porn. And if I am gawking at fake tits in porn, it’s probably not because I’m attracted to them. To the contrary, I’m probably flabbergasted at how huge, hard and nasty they look and I’m viewing it like a carnival sideshow.

          And lastly, I truly believe women are out to impress other women far more than they’re out to impress men. Just my two cents.

          • Tom Matlack says:

            I do think women are out to impress each other but have actually talked to a lot on this topic and pretty consistently breasts are not something that goes into that category. Breasts are a guy thing is what I have been told by women who have had augmentation and those that haven’t. Take that for what its worth but that is what my unscientific sample would say.

            On porn I am actually talking about quite a bit of research done around the topic that draws the correlation. Unscientifically, of course, you can just go on the fact that 90% of women in strip clubs have breast augmentation and they are doing it purely as an economic decision, to maximize how much money men will spend on them. You and I might not like the look, but guys going to a strip club certainly do or the women wouldn’t be doing it.

            • Tom,

              Thank you for writing this article. An earlier comment mentioned that men are also affected by the pressure to have enough girth, length and generally look impressive…..Personally, I have mixed attention from men and would do anything to change how I feel about my body, my hatred for what I see in the mirror because of what I see is most valued by the media

            • I really recommend reading Jenna Jameson’s book “How To Make Love Like A Porn Star”. It gives you the strippers point of view that might clarify a few things for you folks…

  8. I will readily admit men are not at all at fault for this. It’s mostly women who pressure each other to have enhanced breasts. I have never once heard of a man pressuring his wife or girlfriend or whatever to have enhanced breasts. In fact, on an episode of True Life, the women who wanted breast implants did so because either their mothers or their friends were pressuring them. Their boyfriends were just fine with the way they are and tried to discourage them from doing so, but they kept claiming it’s a confidence thing–or even a bullying thing. Confidence doesn’t come from such artificial remedies as breast implants. Confidence comes from within and is the ability to accept yourself. I mean, I try not to judge women who choose to get breast implants, but it’s very hard to not get upset at some of the reasons they posit because there is no true rationality behind their reasons. Sure, their choices don’t effect me, but they only feed into this perfect body situation and serve as another example of the supposed female plight.

    • I’ve definitely heard of men who pressure and even go so far as to offer to pay for, breast enhancement for girlfriends or even women they are casually dating.

      • Ive heard more of pressure on men to pay for for the implants that the woman wants, Ive even seen women advertising looking for a man to pay for her implants.

        What you probably heard about are lies that the woman later told, “he made me do it”.

    • “I have never once heard of a man pressuring his wife or girlfriend or whatever to have enhanced breasts.”

      Wow. Have you been hiding under a rock?! Your statement makes me feel angry and invalidated because it’s happened to me.

      When I was 16, I actually had a boyfriend pressure me to get implants (and other surgeries). He said he wouldn’t consider marrying me if I didn’t. That really hurt. Thankfully, I was smart enough to not want to stay with a jerk like that.

      A later boyfriend/jerk ALSO said he would prefer me with bigger breasts. In fact, the only way he would have sex with me is if I kept my bra on so that my breasts looked bigger. If I tried to take it off, he would stop me. What an idiot. Sex is supposed to be so much more than that… *sad*

      I’ve also known women who’ve had their implants paid for by their boyfriends, but I don’t know if the boyfriends pressured them into it.

      I do know that I’ve been rejected plenty of times by men who say that my B cup isn’t enough for them. I’ve also been insulted and called “unattractive” for not having enough cleavage – always by men, NEVER by women! This went on through middle school, high school, AND college. For the longest time I just ‘accepted’ that I’m “ugly” because of my frail appearance.

      I am now married to a man who appreciates my physical gifts. I think a B cup is perfect for me, but apparently plenty of men DON’T. I think they’re crazy.

      Bottom line: it DOES happen and it hurts a lot.

  9. Tom Matlock

    Are you serious, you don’t like the fact that men don’t share collective responsibility and guilt for womens vanity and their decisions to get breast enhancements?

    You are more than welcome to languish in the feminist constructed, oppressive prison of collective male guilt, but don’t expect the rest of us to join you.

    Let me know when you get out, and I’ll buy you a pint.

  10. Instead of being so quick to respond defensively to something that apparently is a big issue for women, perhaps a better way to look at this issue is to take a step back and as a man, not blame women for their choices or automatically make the connection that women are blaming men for their choices. I’d be more encouraged to hear from men: “women do face a lot of pressure and I can understand why they do or don’t get breast implants.” Instead of some of the defensive this-is-all-women’s-fault-and-women’s-own- issue-to-deal-with attitude that doesn’t really help men and women bridge body image gaps.

    I’m small chested but my mom is quite busty. It never bothered me until I started learning more about the types of media that interested men, the types of women that were represented in that media and the comments that I heard in general from male friends and boyfriends about my own chest size and other girls. I am NOT blaming men. I am responsible for my own self confidence. But men comment on breast size. Breasts matter to men. This isn’t a secular issue. Men have an impact here. There is a big focus on breast size for women then there is for penis size in men. Because quite simply, breasts are everywhere in media and commercials on a level that male penis size doesn’t reach.

    And honestly, from my perspective, men send such double messages here. You can’t say you like the way fake breasts look but not feel and think that’s suppose to make women feel good or be less confused. So we are only suppose to look like the fantasy but feel like the real thing. That’s an impossible standard to meet. As a woman, it often seems like you’re suppose to possess the super human confidence to not worry about the way your body looks, or not buy into the images that the media sends about your body; but it’s okay for the men in your life to buy into the exact images you try to fight against. And I don’t think that’s fair. I am never going to get breast implants, my size fits who I am. But I will be damned that I’m told that I’m suppose to be so uber confident to not let these images affect me while men continually buy into them by staring, purchasing, commenting or paying money to see them. This needs to be a joint effort. If you are a man that likes real breasts, saying things like fake breasts look good but real ones feel good doesn’t help the case for real breasts. If you are a man that likes real breasts, spending money on strippers with fake ones because it’s something new, doesn’t help the case for real breasts.

    Women might get breast implants to make themselves more confident. But that’s only because they previously bought into an idea that their bodies aren’t good enough as they are. I don’t believe that any woman gets breast implants just for themselves. They get them because they believe their bodies are not appropriate the way they are. That they are aren’t proportionate. But what is proportionate? How has that idea of changed through the years and why? Look at women in old paintings and most of us would probably think they aren’t proportionate. And yet, they were painted because they were thought to be beautiful. Our ideas of what “proportionate” is today is the real question.

    But of course, women naturally play a huge part too. (However, this shouldn’t be used as an excuse for men to obliterate any responsibility for the messages they send about what they like in women’s bodies.) I remember my one girlfriend being upset with a friend of hers that got breast implants. This same girlfriend had a baby a year ago and was talking about how she might get her breasts lifted after she was done having kids. I was a little flabbergasted with her at first because she was critical of her friend that got breast implants. And she was only critical of that friend because she knew that the desire for the implants was born out of insecurity and she felt sorry for her friend. And I know that her desire to fix her breasts after having kids is born out of her insecurity as well.

    We all know what men like. We all know what men pay attention to. Women want men to like them, to still be attracted to them. And if men show they are attracted to a certain body type, women will strive to be that body type. Women live in a world that reminds them everyday how much they lack. Then they go home to their partners who more then likely, are downloading images of other girls with or without implants. Women can’t get away from the message about their bodies. I am not asking men to take the blame for this. I am just asking that men try to understand where women are coming from here. Penis size isn’t as nearly represented in media like boobs are. But women have a resonsibility to themselves to learn real body confidence. Then women need to reject ideals about what makes them women, that bigger breasts make them more womanly and men need to reject mediums that support the most shallow parts about women and send false ideas about what a real woman’s body is. Until that happens, a lot of men are going to see their daughters and wives struggle with the way their bodies look.

  11. I’m sorry Erin

    But the crusade by privileged american feminists to get men to believe that grown women should be pampered , molly coddled and fathered by men as a group is totally and utterly unreasonable.

    You’d just like to “get men” to think this, understand that, take responsibility for you, to control men and manipulate them into the role of your father and protector and whipping boy.
    If women have a problem with the media, stop worshiping it, celebrities and taking your cues from it, disconnect.
    If you have a problem with beauty standards, stop competing with each other and driving them up.
    If you have a problem with vanity, fall out of love with your own reflections.
    Date within your league instead of using fakery to aim above it.

    The first step for feminists in this regard, is to stop blaming men and “patriarchy” for their neurosis and weaknesses and every other little thing, because otherwise its impossible to conceptualize talking responsibility for yourselves.

    Paternal men, like some of the ones writing for this mag. are responsible too, for encouraging and enabling it.

    You’ve got to chose between equality or being children, you cant expect to be treated like children and expect equality, its one or the other.

    • Go To, please point to what I specifically said that pointed to women being pampered, molly coddled or treated like children?

      Why is asking for men to try and understand something that is a big issue for women a negative to you? You want to talk about immaturity, that’s a pretty immature standpoint.

      Don’t put ideas and thoughts into my comments that aren’t there. What I would like is to “get men” to understand a little better about the issues women face just like WOMEN should try to understand better the issues men face. It is a two way street. And therein lies the difference between us. I know it’s a two way street, you’ve closed yourself off and are barreling straight down a one way road. Instead of making this a war, instead of men being defensive and hurt, just like women are and can be, we should be supportive and helpful to each other.

      No one alive in this entire world has it easy. And for you to insinuate that I do, as an American woman, is degrading to my life experiences and the hardships I’ve personally encountered as a human being. Instead of choosing to see me as a human being and a woman, you’ve decided to view women as *things* that have no other personality traits, emotions or life experiences other then cupcakes and ice cream. Instead *you’ve* decided to take a very immature stance by folding your arms over your chest, closing yourself off, and degrading women to the placement of children. I didn’t do that. You did. There was nothing in my post that hinted at treating women like children. Calling women children isn’t about you trying to fix any issues, it’s about you reducing women because of your own personal issues and because *you* like reducing women to the stance of children. That’s all about you, not anyting women are or do.

      You also missed a good chunk of my post. Because if you really read it, you would have read the part where I won’t be getting breast implants despite all the messages I get from the media and the conversations I’ve heard from other people about my breasts and other girls breasts. I infact have a higher respect for celebrities that don’t get surgery to make themselves more “standard”. I was really disappointed in Kate Hudson who got implants. I always thought about how beautiful she was and respected her for her proud small breasted body, but she still felt the pressure to be something she wasn’t. And after that, I lost a little respect for her for it. I like women like Jennifer Garner MORE then women Kim Kradashian that spend SO much time on their personal beauty. But do you know who men like more? Who gets more attention? Kim does. Don’t shame women because they want to be beautiful. Don’t hold women to a standard you clearly aren’t holding men to.

      And yes, I have a responsibility to myself to not buy into what the media promotes about beauty. And it’s a battle everyday. I also think mothers have a HUGE responsiblity in how they talk about their own bodies infront of their daughters. Too many women talk to their daugthers about their own body insecurities instead of telling their daughters they like their bodies. I remember sitting with my mom watching her getting ready and thinking how beautiful she looked but she would look in the mirror and suck in her tummy and make an “ugg” face about it and make a comment. I have moments of confidence and moments of insecurity but I still fight for it. But it’s not fair to expect women to have super amounts of confidence in themselves and their bodies when their own male partners BUY into the exact images you are dictating women fight against. Look at men’s magazines and the likes. Don’t sit there and tell women to stop buying into beauty standards when men buy into them just as much. Now if you were instead saying that both MEN and WOMEN should fight those standards, that would be another thing. But that’s not what you are saying. You seem to think that women need to do all the work while you get to sit back and enjoy all the media that caters to what men find ideal in woman’s bodies.

      If you choose to see men respecting women as only something men can do through a paternal relationship with women, then I feel sorry for you that your idea of relationships between men and women are so limited.

      • Erin

        I see you here supporting gynocretrism, woman worship and paternalism here all the time, the constant only way demands for respect and your woman worshiping professor and the imploring the men her to see things that way too.

        And no I dont think that the only way to respect women is paternalism, feminism and the brand of paternal male feminism thats promoted here, doesn’t respect women and equals, it infantilizes them and objectifies them as delicate, virtuous and pure victims.

        Respecting women, is not treating them like children and sacred cows but fortunately respecting women, which is now demanded for all women regardless has somehow been morphed into worshiping them and infantalizing them by privileged middle class american feminist women.

        • Edit

          Respecting women, is not treating them like children and sacred cows but unfortunately respecting women, which is now demanded for all women regardless, has somehow been morphed into worshiping them and infantalizing them by privileged, middle class american feminist women.

          • Again, I will repeat my orignal question, what specifically in what I said points to treating women like children, “sacred cows” or men treating women with paternalism? You also said you “see” me “supporting gynocretrism”. Again, show me exactly where you see me doing in that in my comments.

            You keep tossing around these emotionally charged words so you better have specific points from my post that you can draw on to prove your claims before egregiously lying about what I’ve been saying. Did I claim women didn’t need to do their part? Did I not claim that women need to stop buying into the media’s idea of what makes the perfect women? Did I NOT infact claim that mothers need to stop talking badly about their own bodies infront of their daughters? Of course I did. And *you’ve* choosen to ignore all of this because you’re “automatic-pilot-feminism-is-evil” switch is on full speed to distract from the topic at hand.

            If you don’t care about what happens to women, then don’t. No one said *you* do. But you came into a discussion that was about how many women feel like they need to surgically “enhance” their bodies to feel good about themselves as women. Do you know how society pushes unfair standards on men regarding masculinity? Well guess what? It also pushes unfair expectations on women regarding their femininity. If you want women to change their narrow ideals about what masculinity means, you have to be willing to work with women on that same score on men changing their own ideals about what a woman’s body should or shouldn’t be. Don’t sit there and make up false claims about what *I* am saying because of your anger to anything female or feministic. The difference between my beliefs and yours, is that you belief toward women seems to run the lines of “screw you, it’s your problem, you figure it out”; when my belief is that men and women need to work TOGETHER. They need to CARE about the issues the other gender faces and ask themselves what *they* can do to help. That doesn’t negate the responsibility the other gender has as well but it does logically recognize that in this world we need to work together if we are going to change social attitudes and norms.

            Further, you clearly think that any form of respect given to women by men can only be achieved through a paternal relationship.How do I know this? Because when I commited on just asking men to have a little more understanding toward women and the issues they struggle with their bodies, your response was a very cold one about how that means that men must treat women with paternalism. I guess any understanding ona woman’s part about the issues men face in the court system would be maternal ones and there for, unacceptable by your standards.

            If you think our culture worships women then you’re entirely blind. Our culture might worship the ideal female body but it doesn’t worship women at all for who they really are as people or what their real natural bodies are. our culture certainly worships the visual of a woman’s body, but not anything else much about her.

            The only one infantilizing women here is you. And *you* clearly get off on doing it. Because it puts women down. That’s the ONLY reason men lump women in the same group as children. You get off on reducing women to that status because it gives you something to put women down about. You’re not trying to come to any shared and intelligent discussion. You’re not trying to improve conditions for women OR men by lumping them in with children. Because someone that is trying to bridge that gap doesn’t immediately reduce one gender in the process. You don’t even really want to see women as adults becaue then they would be your equals and then you would have to come down off that pedestal you put yourself to make yourself feel bigger, smarter and stronger.

            When you are ready to have a respectful discussion without degrading women in the process, let me know.

            • Hi Erin

              Just to make this clear.

              You are saying that talking about women’s thinking, attitudes or behaviour in a negative light is verboten in my response to you about gynocnetricity and the objectification of women as sacred cows?

              We live in a gynocentric culture in which the privileged women have been taught to believe that they are the victims of an horrific oppression so they cant see the gynocentricity. Our culture is so gynocentric, that any sort of negative thoughts or speech about women is taboo, as you have demonstrated with your rule for our discussion..

              This magazine we are posting on here, is a testament to gynocentrisity and paternalism you can see it from its coverage of womens issues and refusal to comment on or acknowledge the issues men have that aren’t feminist sanctioned.

              You cant see the gynocentricity because you are so deep in it.

            • Go To, let me ask you another question (by the way, I am still waiting on response from all the previous questions I’ve asked you that you’ve ignored.) What is *your* definition of “gynocentricity”?

              If you do not like what this magazine represents, what are you even doing here to begin with? Clearly it’s not the place for you. And your attention to it only succeeds in making it more active.

              You’ve done nothing this entire time to talk about the specific topic of the article. All you’ve done is make broad generalizations about femininism, women, “gynocentrisity” (as *you* define it) and “paternalism”. But you’ve said nothing of specific regard to what *this* article specfically addresses. You’ve made false accusation about what I believe in and when I’ve asked you questions to back up your claims, you’ve continued to ignore them in your cursade of back talk and incomplele thoughts. I truly feel sorry that your anger and sadness and hurt with the world has left you blinded to the fact that women are people, just like you. And they don’t live in a more perfect world then you do. They live in a world where they need men to work with them, and vice versa, women need to work with men. But until you acknowledge that (which won’t happen in your life time) you’ll remain unhappy with yourself and women for the rest of your life. And you will continue to lie to yourself and tell yourself others are the ones “so deep in it”, that they can’t see the “truth”, to comfort yourself.

            • Home of Ju Ju says:

              Erin

              I did answer you, feminism and womens issues couched in a mens publication that actively suppresses mens issues in favour of women’s is gynocracy. I think that statement answers your second question too.

              Large strides have been made against MGM recently in the US, at least 1 in 10 american men have been falsely accused of abuse not including rape etc.. etc.. and TGMP is agonising about men being responsible poor little rich girls having plastic surgery to gain more sexual attention for themselves and boost their self esteem. That is gynocracy.

            • Oh complete nonsense, you didn’t answer one question I asked you. We both know you actively avoided answering anything in favor or using the same vitriol to spread your personal agenda. It’s not even an agenda that does much good for men.

              All this publication has to do for men like you to get hot and bothered is say the word “women”, and you go up in flames. You can’t stand the idea that there are thoughtful men out there that are JUST as concerned about issues how they, as men, treat women; just as they are concered about how men are treated. Further, they go beyond that and examine how they add or negativly impact themselves, other men, women and their children. And it’s these thoughtful discussions, ones that discuss how men can improve; to be better leaders, husbands, fathers, brothers and uncles that put men like you so ill at ease because of your own personal insecurities. You can’t swallow any personal examination. I don’t say that to put you down. It’s a hard thing to do for many people. But it doesn’t give you an excuse to hold down any attempt to talk about things that impact the other half of the population.

              If you do not like this topic, then don’t read it. You’re not accomplishing anything by coming on a specific topic and trying to deter it to how *you* as a man think men have been victimized. There are plenty of publications where you can go to do that where you would be both more on topic and better received.

      • Amen.

        Erin, i commend you for taking time to respond to some of your critics…but I think it is pointless, as you’ve mentioned it is clear some live their lives going on a “one way street” and evidently that is more natural for them. Trying to show them another route or perspective is oh so confusing to them!

        I think jennifer garner is a natural beauty and she kicks ass on screen. Kim kardasian is a mannequin with an elephant’s butt…don’t know why her butt is so famous…must be because men like them big…something to do with sex I think.

        Tom M. is right…women’s bodies have been increasingly portrayed in a cartoonish fashion, which I would liken to Manga cartoons or those Japanese sex cartoon porn…plus all female superheroes are drawn with melons for breasts and kardshian butts. The men who draw them up have porn size standards.

    • The problem is, women fear that we need to meet male expectations or we will never “get a man” — ANY man. The majority of men are pursuing women at the top level of attractiveness. If you are a woman who decides to defy beauty standards, you will probably never get a date, not even with men “in your league.”. Men don’t want unattractive women. Unattractive women get the message over and over again (not just from men, from other women too) that you are invisible, you have no value, you don’t exist.

      So telling women to just stop worrying about beauty standards is a bit short sighted. If I stop worrying about beauty standards I will have a very very lonely, sexless life.

      • Susan

        You are likely conflating male expectations with what you see in your media and female competition.
        Feminist women have a habit of projecting all responsibility for what women do, onto men.

        And I’m sure lots of men have approached you. Also, have you considered approaching men instead of using peacocking to make one approach you?

        • Actually I usually spend way less time and energy on my appearance than most women do. I hate wearing make up, low cut tops or mini skirts. I dress pretty conservatively. However, being one of those lucky women who is naturally busty, I know from personal experience that wearing a low cut, tight top makes a huge difference in the amount of attention I get. If I’m wearing a low cut top, 10 guys might talk to me in one evening. In a conservative top, maybe one, or none.

          Because I’m not comfortable “peacocking,” and never have been, my romantic life has suffered. It was my choice. Not that I haven’t had relationships with men, including my current relationship, but it’s been a struggle for me. I know I would have had way more options if I’d accepted the idea that I needed to flaunt my body. I always had this idea that I wanted to attract men by being nice, fun, interesting, etc., rather than by wearing revealing clothes, even if the clothes would have gotten me more attention. I don’t know, I still hope that maybe all the extra attention wouldn’t have been worth it. I’m not sure I would have attracted more quality guys, just more quantity. But I don’t really know.

          So I guess what I’m saying is I understand that many women feel they have no choice if they want a romantic life.

          • Susan

            you are on another thread saying that you rarely get hit on, and in this you are talking about being hit on ten times a night.

            So it seems how often you are being hit on depends on what argument you are trying to make. This is why conversations between feminists and non feminists get difficult and frustrating, there is an honesty gap.

            • I consider myself of average attractiveness, but flaunting my chest results in much more attention than otherwise. That’s my point.

              I’ve never said I never get hit on, just not that much compared to other women.

            • Home of Ju Ju says:

              So your point is that if you make a sexual display, you get a lot of sexual attention and when you aren’t making a sexual display, you don’t get as much sexual attention as women that are making sexual displays?

              Your point, that you are marginalized in the dating market on the other thread is moot, because you are saying here that you have the power to chose between being hot on 10 times a night and hit on very little, which is a position of power on the dating market that not even the most high status men are in.

            • Okay maybe 10 would be a very good night. LOL. what I’m trying to say is that flaunting my chest can get me a lot of attention while otherwise I’m generally ignored. I’ve never said in any of my comments that I get zero attention, just that I get way less than the types of hot women that PUA’s are always pursuing and talking about.

              There ARE a lot of women who get zero attention and PUA’s don’t seem to realize that those women even exist. Older women, fatter women, nerdy women, etc. That’s my point on the other thread. I don’t understand why PUA’s are so obsessed with the idea that women have all the power when actually they are only talking about a small set of the women out there.

            • Oneness of Ju Ju says:

              Right Susan.

              You are telling lies to try and make points, and now its misdirection and more lies about obsessions. Look at Sara, she is down below making up stories about experiments to make her point.

              And so it always goes in discussions with feminists, lies and more lies.

              And when men talk about the power difference in the dating market they are talking about averages. You for example, you say you are average, and get hit on ten times on a good night if you indicate that you are looking for sexual attention, and you backed up that point.

            • Again I NEVER SAID I DON’T GET SEXUAL ATTENTION. Jesus.

            • Oneness of Ju Ju says:

              Susan

              “Again I NEVER SAID I DON’T GET SEXUAL ATTENTION. Jesus.”

              I never said you said that, stop strawmaning. You said you get hit rarely on that thread because it fit your agenda, and you said 10 times on a good night here to suit you agenda.

              Look, I’m going to withdraw from this because you are only going to come back with another set of lies. Its pointless trying to have discussions with feminists.

            • Nothing I have said is inconsistent. It’s absolutely true I rarely get hit on and it’s also true I get hit on a lot more if I dress provocatively, but I don’t like to dress provocatively. It’s also true that there are a lot of women who never get hit on (which is my point) while a small minority of young very attractive women get hit on all the time. PUA’s only think about the last group and all of their complaints about women are based on that.

              However I am done with this argument because you are going to call me a feminist liar no matter what (not that I’ve even said I’m a feminist) — so what’s the point. Believe what you want.

        • Go to, you are not a woman. You don’t know what you’re talking about in regard to women approaching men. I’ve actually done experiments on dating sites where I approach men… the results were disastrous… almost 100% of the guys I reached out to assumed I was 1.) A prostitute 2.) Easy 3.) Worthless. Many of them even said as much. Being forward and making contact with men is NOT rewarded. Too many immediately assume the worst of the woman doing the approaching… that either she is easy or that no one wants her and she is ‘forced’ to seek out and thus less valuable.

          • Sara

            That sounds like a lie to be honest. I suspect you are avoiding responsibility for having the courage to face possible rejection by blaming men and society.

            I don’t believe that you able to design an experiment that allowed to to read the minds and motivations of the respondents and that the results were “almost 100%” the same.

            If you are not lying, post us a link to your experiment or some proof that you under took it.

            • I didn’t read their minds I read their responses. Which were almost uniformly foul.

              You’re going to have to take my word on it. If you don’t well, how do we know everything you’re spouting off about women isn’t all a lie too?

  12. 1) Just as the size of a man’s penis or muscles can make him feel more/less masculine, so the size of a woman’s breasts make her feel more or less feminine. I have always been very small on top, and it makes me feel less womanly. Working for a plastic surgery review site, I have come across many women who say the same thing. Having full breasts is one thing that has always made women different from men, so it seems only natural that we feel a desire to enhance that distinction.

    2) Regardless of who started it (men or women), a woman’s breasts have long been put on display. Even in historical clothing, corsets and dresses were designed to push ‘em up and out. For whatever reason, breasts are a focal point in our culture, and probably always will be. Why should a woman feel bad for wanting to enhance her focal point?

    3) Regarding the “natural” vs “fake” debate. The problem with asking men this question, is that many men associate fake boobs with what they see in porn and Hollywood. The reality is, a lot of women opt for small (C or less) implants that the naked eye wouldn’t notice if done by an expert surgeon. Of course one might prefer a natural looking B-cup to say, Holly Madison’s rocks. But the more important question is would you prefer a barely-there, all natural AA, or a slightly enhanced C that still had the slope and curve of natural breasts? The latter is entirely achievable with a good doc.

    I do think it’s odd when women choose implants that are too large for their body, ala Pam Anderson.
    But just as women prefer bigger penises (it’s not a deciding factor, but she’s lying if she says it’s not a plus), so do most men prefer breasts that are full and present. A too large penis uncomfortable, as too big of breasts could be awkward and get in the way.
    It’s not about porn star knockers, but just having *something.* I’ve never had anything but compliments on my breasts-that-disappear-in-a-bikini, but I can’t imagine any of my exes being upset if they were suddenly a little larger. These features are what set our sexes apart, so why wouldn’t we be genetically inclined to look for someone who has the most to offer? Watch one episode of “Life” or “Planet Earth” and it’s clear that many animals choose mates in similar ways.

  13. Henry Vandenburgh says:

    Natural is more beautiful. Surgery is okay by me if it is to repair a problem. I had a friend in college with mismatched boob sizes, and I thought she looked great. (We went to a college with a lot of nude sunbathing. We weren’t lovers.)

  14. I just wrote an article on same subject; 10 Reasons Not To Get Breast Implants
    http://www.christinaneumeyer.blogspot.com

  15. As a gal who has a larger chest, it really isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be. I wish I was a B-cup again. :(
    It’s hot in the South and more boob means more boob sweat. More boob also means gravity wins.
    Media depictions of the “perfect” female body has warped what women think they ought to look like, when the reality is that plastic surgery is the only way to achieve that look. Companies are telling you your body is inadequate in order to sell a product. It’s hard to let go of the computer-generated, airbrushed, photoshopped, surgery-enhanced bodies on display in advertising when you’ve been exposed to it since you were still in diapers. These images are repeated every day for years, and you start to compare yourself to people on the screen or in your magazines without even realizing it.

  16. blond dude says:

    From a single male perspective in the dating world i appreciate a woman with small to average cup size,,but tbh in reality breasts do not even enter into the equation though for most i-like most dudes have no preference for how big your chest is.The first thing i notice when i approach a gal is her EYES.I couldn’t give a flip about perfectly symetrical boobs,large or anything else.Im sorry that ‘some’ women feel pressure and or the need to get implants.

    • I think many small and big chested girls appreicate your whole standpoint Blond dude.

    • It’s becasue of people like you, Blond dude, that my niece is asking for green eyed contact lenses !!

      • Are you really trying to make him feels guilty for noticing a womans eyes?

        You not doubt reserve the right to notice features that you like for yourself.

        You ideology is as as bad as islam, just you want the burka in the minds and over the eyes of men.

        And in reality, your niece is probably more influenced by the gimmy-gmmy-gimmy consumerism and vanity of the older women around her and the media that they leave around for her to see than men who like nice eyes.

        • Yeah well, first off, I’m a proud atheist. Second, I was being ironic-facetious and hoping my double exclamation mark, at the end, would have been a tip off.

          But anyway, why would it be, exactly, that noticing someone’s eyes is more wholesome than noticing someone’s breasts? Are eyes the mirror of the soul? Are there more poems about eyes than there are poems of breasts? Do you know that surgery for Asians who want more Western looking eyes is not that uncommon?

          Dude comes on here and praises eyes and there is some expected fawning over his superior motivations. It’s a great compliment to be sure. I absolutely love it when others tell me I have beautiful eyes. Take one out of the socket though…just throwing out the question of good versus bad body parts, fake versus real, and visceral versus rational understanding.

          • Ok fair enough.

            I did get the sense that there was something about his post, like he expected a pat on the head for the right answer.

            There is nothing wrong with noticing someones eyes, or their breasts, its all pretty much the same thing and unless you are blind, physical features are what people notice first.

            Its only in religions, and I consider feminism a religion, that you get totalitarian rules and sham surrounding about who can show and who can look at what.

    • The first thing i notice when i approach a gal is her EYES
      Hell yes. I can’t promise its always the first thing I notice but i can promise its always one of the first things I notice.

      This is something that I think is often overlooked in terms of attraction (or people don’t bring it up because getting a good look at someone’s eyes means eye contact which some people perceieve as threatening when in fact they’re not).

      • What happens to someone who has “unattractive” eyes? Too narrow? Not enough lashes? Dull color? Asymmetrical? They might not get noticed right away…

        I think being attracted to one body part is the same as being attracted to any other. So, if we know what the other sex is attracted to, why wouldn’t we try to enhance it? Increase our chances of catching the other’s attention? Eye-liner = push-up bra. Blepharoplasty = breast implants.

        And if “natural beauty” is what men really want, then should women stop wearing makeup and doing their hair? Because without a little mascara and a hair straightener even people who look like “natural beauties” appear quite different. Let’s call it the Hermione Granger syndrome… or the Princess Diaries. :) I don’t see how enhancing one’s attractiveness with some makeup is different than the choice to get plastic surgery. Either way you’re trying to make yourself more attractive, by your own standards or someone else’s.

        • Sorry, Danny, I realize that post strayed from being a direct response to yours. Tangents…

        • What happens to someone who has “unattractive” eyes? Too narrow? Not enough lashes? Dull color? Asymmetrical? They might not get noticed right away…
          Simple I make my comment to myself and go about my business. However if I were to impose my opinion like telling them they should get surgery or contacts or something like that, it would be a problem. And as I said above its a preference not a potentially deal breaking requirement.

          As an aside. Last week someone on my facebook list shared a picture of Olivia Wilde. I was so busy caught up in her grey (or at least they look grey) eyes that I actually had the pic for a day or two before I noticed her shirt was see through.

          I think being attracted to one body part is the same as being attracted to any other. So, if we know what the other sex is attracted to, why wouldn’t we try to enhance it? Increase our chances of catching the other’s attention? Eye-liner = push-up bra. Blepharoplasty = breast implants.
          While not a body part you have guys that see that women are attracted to status and money. So guys try to flash and make lots of money to attract women. Said men who do that are often called shallow….

          And if “natural beauty” is what men really want, then should women stop wearing makeup and doing their hair? Because without a little mascara and a hair straightener even people who look like “natural beauties” appear quite different.
          Given that different men have different preferences its too difficult to try to answer that solidly. But if you want my answer on it I think its a matter of effort. I would be more attracted to a woman who does little touches or no touches than a woman who goes through a ritual. And that’s not hinging on thinking the woman that uses few touches looks just as good or better than the women who does a lot. Its a matter simply not putting up with that stuff. But again that would not mean I would dismiss a woman who did a lot.

          I don’t see how enhancing one’s attractiveness with some makeup is different than the choice to get plastic surgery. Either way you’re trying to make yourself more attractive, by your own standards or someone else’s.
          I think on the surface its a matter of risk. Makeup is not as risky as plastic surgery.

          • Dany said: “While not a body part you have guys that see that women are attracted to status and money. So guys try to flash and make lots of money to attract women. Said men who do that are often called shallow…”

            I don’t know where you live, but where I live, men aren’t flashing their money and status to get dates. Most guys dress causally, not in suits. My friends aren’t all dating doctors and lawyers. Most are dating blue collar guys. Women aren’t masturbating to media of men showing off their moeny and status either. There isn’t a huge following of women attracted to Donald Trump for a reason. But there are average guys everywhere that do look at media that shows unrealistic standards about women’s beauty.

            Danny said: “iven that different men have different preferences its too difficult to try to answer that solidly. But if you want my answer on it I think its a matter of effort. I would be more attracted to a woman who does little touches or no touches than a woman who goes through a ritual.”

            You reminded me about this article I read in a magazine that did a little test on men They had one woman that did three levels of make up and they asked the men which level they found the most attractive without telling the men which level her make up was. So the first level was very little make up, the second level was moderate make up, and the last level was a lot of make up. Most men picked the moderate make up face BUT they all said that they liked that one because it was only a “little”. The men had no concept of what a little make up vs more make up was because most men don’t put make up on. So whenever guys say they like a litle make up, I wonder if they *really* do (they could), or if they don’t have a natural concept of make up, which would only be understandable.

            • I don’t know where you live, but where I live, men aren’t flashing their money and status to get dates. Most guys dress causally, not in suits. My friends aren’t all dating doctors and lawyers. Most are dating blue collar guys. Women aren’t masturbating to media of men showing off their moeny and status either. There isn’t a huge following of women attracted to Donald Trump for a reason. But there are average guys everywhere that do look at media that shows unrealistic standards about women’s beauty.
              I’ve sat and listened to women talk about how a guy has to be able to take care of them in order to be considered (of course you know people don’t have such expectations and I don’t either, so bear in mind I’m not trying to say that all women act that way, just that those who do actually exist and are not just figments of our imaginations or media creations).

              As for Trump the world at large sees him for the jerk that he is. However if you look at other celebrities and high status folks look at how many of them cheat on their spouses. If Tiger Woods was not a world famous golfer with a lot of status, money, and power do you think he would have cheated on his wife with like 12 different women? I’m not saying that fame and money are the only indicators but I think they are a part of it in many cases.

            • Yes Danny, women do sit around talking about men and some women do wnat to be taken care of. Some women want to be homemakers. Some don’t. How many women do you know that actually don’t have to work along with their mate? How many media forms do you know that are out there that women are physically masturbating to that are all about a man’s money and wealth? How many average guys do you know sit around that physically masturbate to goregous young women?

              I don’t think women that place an importance on money is a figment of your imagination. But I do think women aren’t nearly as critical as you think. So many of my friends date blue collar guys. And they work too! And they aren’t going home at the end of the night and masturbating to some fantasy image of a man with tons of money spending lots of money on her. Yet alot of their blue collar guys infact DO spend some time masturbating to fantasy images of young busty women.

              You mentioned Tiger woods and how 12 different women slept with him. Well lets look at a few things here. The quality of the women that slepted with him wasn’t exactly high quality. Would you even want to be with those women yourself? His wife was at home with their children while he was out sleeping around. Why don’t you instead choose to focus on her? Do you think his wife wouldn’t have been anything less the goregous either?

              Yes Tiger Woods is rich. Yes, women slept with him. But if those are the kind of money you want to hold all women to, then you aren’t being fair to women. Just as it would be unfair for me to hold all men up as cheaters because of the crap storm of public male figures that have been found cheating on their wives and families. So don’t act like most women are like the owmen that selpt with Tiger Woods. Or that Tiger Woods would have been with some very average girl given all his money.

            • But I do think women aren’t nearly as critical as you think. So many of my friends date blue collar guys. And they work too! And they aren’t going home at the end of the night and masturbating to some fantasy image of a man with tons of money spending lots of money on her.
              But that are shutting men out based solely based on how much money they make (frankly I think said men are better off but I think its worth pointing out).

              The quality of the women that slepted with him wasn’t exactly high quality. Would you even want to be with those women yourself?
              Actually I looked some of them up and yes I probably would. Difference is I don’t roll like Tiger but if I did the wedding ring (if I had one) would stop me.

              His wife was at home with their children while he was out sleeping around. Why don’t you instead choose to focus on her? Do you think his wife wouldn’t have been anything less the goregous either?
              Yeah I think she is. But that surely didn’t stop those 12 women from trying to make a move on a man that they know was married.

              So don’t act like most women are like the owmen that selpt with Tiger Woods.
              Did I say that most of them did? All I said was there was no need to act like they don’t exist or act like they had no part in what happened.

  17. ” What the hell is going on in our country that women think they need fake breasts to be okay with their bodies? ”

    Where do you live? Under a rock? If fake boobs weren’t idolized, no one would get them. Tv, movies, magazines, porn. You name it.

    The statement “I hate bad, big boob jobs. I also do not get turned on by big, hanging, natural udders” quoted in your article just say it all. Hate is such a strong word. This man thinks both enhanced and natural boobs are grotesque. God forbid a woman not be born with perfectly formed perky d cups.

    • Yes, I agree that’s a horrible statement. So women with naturally big boobs have “udders”. Why can’t this guy just say he prefers small breasts and leave it at that? Why the hate?

  18. Your post went a bit deeper than my recent article about baby breast implants on Daddy by Default, but it’s an interesting topic, nonetheless. I think people are polarized on this, and site on the fence between personal preference and a disturbing change in culture. Some would consider breast augmentation for beauty purposes a form of self mutilation, which has religious connotations as well, I think. Some say it’s been done for centuries throughout the world, and even those who get their ears pierced are practicing a form of self mutilation. Others, like myself, believe it to be a form of personal preference, but I do recognize the change in culture, especially in light of statistics like the increasing number of surgeries and the number of people who have multiple surgeries on the same part of their body. Do you really need 9 nose jobs? The article I wrote in response to the story about a woman who gave her 7 year old daughter a voucher for breast implants I think is where the change in culture comes in, and that’s scary. I don’t believe a 7 year old should think its ok to want breast implants. Even when she’s older, and even if she truly grasps the potential danger of any surgery, let alone elective, I think its a slippery slope to be introducing that type of product, especially as a gift.

  19. I’m planning for a “job” Dec 1st. I’m a mother of a 5 yr and 18 mo. Not once has my husband complained about my breast or even recommended augmenting them. It’s something I’ve always wanted. He continues to tell me that I’m “fine the way I am”…..but I’m not doing this for him (obviously). There is a bad stigma on women who have gone under the knife; yes, some get them for the wrong reasons. and as much as I want them, I get discouraged because I don’t want ppl to think I’m less of a person, or an attention seeker. I just want to feel better about myself.

  20. That’s not MY website, but it’s one that contributors to this blog will find interesting. I’m just 32, but I am quite sure the following are true. And let me preface this by saying the comments above that I read are both sincere and silly, poignant and sometimes just head-in-the-sand about reality. So…here goes. Men loving, obsessing over, being willing to go to extreme lengths to touch, big breasts – that is just nature and has little to do societal pressure. it has nothing to do with being good or bad. If you want your wife or girlfriend to have huge, porn-star sized boobs, you can still be martin Luther King. It’s what you want. And women who want their man to be tall, or powerful, or famous, or wealthy, or well-endowed, or covered with tattoos – are not bad. It’s just what they want, from a primordial place in our genes. Women pressure men constantly, in many ways, to put themselves at great risk to have the money and notoriety that turns us on. That’s just a fact. We tell them to lose weight, get a bigger penis, give us things, behave differently. Dress better. Get new hair. And, yes, get plastic surgery including penile whatever. We live in a new world, where you can choose many things about your appearance. Whether you think it’s politically right or morally right, a woman with large breasts has immediate and constant power ON A CERTAIN PLANE. Men cannot help but be affected. To most men, including GOOD MEN, the same woman is far more attractive and compelling if she has DD breasts than B-cups. Some men prefer a more boyish look. Most want their wife AND their girlfriend to have the biggest breasts feasible. It’s their fantasy, whether they admit it or not – and they’re good men despite it. If they ask their woman to go bigger, how are they any worse than a woman who pressures her man to do something far more dangerous to his health: chase that promotion, focus excessively on work which rules out time for maintaining health – I mean, come on. Anyhow, history is full of people nudging others to do things they weren’t keen on. The satisfaction rate amongst women who’ve had breast augmentation is something north of 80%, and 17% of the other 20% are only dissatisfied because they didn’t go bigger. REgardless of whether they felt pressure to get their first breast augmentation, the most common followon surgery is…more breast augmentation. And women with extremely large augmented breasts – like me, which is one reason I know a lot about it – are certainly no more ‘freakish’ than men who have done extreme weightlifting and transformed their appearance; they may look insane to you at first glance, but plenty of women flock to them, become addicted to that type of body. 99% of men have a very positive reaction to my kind of figure. At the beginning, 6 years ago, yes I was definitely nudged this way by a man I was in a long term relationship with – he had read this book (www.implants4her.com) the Convince Her Manual and was sort of following its ‘program’ on how to talk to women about getting larger breasts. I found it kind of campy and funny, but basically positive. I started at 500cc , then went to 600cc, then 800cc and I LIKE having the most amazing figure in the gym. Not that it happens just with plastic surgery; you have to work out and stay healthy and so on. I LIKE the way it looks, and feels, and I LIKE the attention, and I LIKE what it adds to my life and in particular to my sex life. Women get stuck on …”he MUST love me as I am.” Sweetie, do you love HIM as he is, or do you actually want him to change? Be honest. In reality, if your partner IS willing to change to fulfill your fantasy, it makes for an amazing and wonderful new level in a relationship. So what if one of those changes is bigger breasts or a smaller nose or a bigger penis or bigger muscles? It’s part of the world we live in; enjoy it, take advantage of it, and don’t get neurotic about it.

    • Your website:

      “Being manipulated isn’t so bad”

      Manipulate:

      1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
      2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one’s own advantage
      3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one’s purpose.

      So you think that being persuaded to fork out a couple of grand and to radically alter your body is a good thing?

      Jesus wept.

      • Oops, the URL did not show. It is http://www.implants4her.com and — sure, being manipulated is absolutely fine if it gets you to a good destination. The last commentator is soooo dramatic: Jesus wept. Not over this, I’m sure. If God made us, he had some reason that SEX IS MORE FUN WHEN BOTH PEOPLE ARE TURNED ON – and that he made sure men are REALLY – at least the majority of them are – MUCH more turned on when the woman has big breasts. And Jesus is probably not weeping over this, and the media didn’t invent this primal reaction nor force it upon us. The ferocious attraction men have for big breasts is programmed in, obviously – and I LOVE the intensity it adds when I see the man I’m with is so impacted. I don’t have large breasts because I felt bad about my body, you goofballs. I did it because I love the way men are affected. If you are offended by The Convince Her [to Get BIGGER BREASTS] Manual, why? Why aren’t you equally offended by we women pushing men to compete and earn more and work longer hours to get promoted and then work shorter hours to give us a break with the kids? Spending a few thousand dollars for bigger breasts and ‘radically altering one’s body’ – so what? To millions of women, it’s a great investment and enhances their lives. It makes them feel more secure, not just about how they look in clothes (that’s trivial by comparison), but about their power to keep their chosen mate from straying. And it is simply FUN to see the opposite gender get turned on. I like seeing WOMEN get turned on by my figure in the gym. and fun is worth a lot more than this. Let’s face it – nature forget to take care of this part of women’s bodies after age 16, so we have to figure out what to do, if anything. Read the Convince Her Manual ( implants4her.com ) and “manipulate” your wife or girlfriend into getting bigger breasts. I thought it was entertaining and campy, but basically it is positive and truthful, and doesn’t bullsh** around. Very, very few women will get boob jobs if they really are opposed – so worry yourselves about world hunger. You can be a hero and still want to talk your wife or girlfriend into getting breast implants. As long as you’re ready to up your game and take it all to a better level, she’s not going to complain. She wants you to turn into a caveman and drag her by the hair to the bearskin by the fireplace – break the routine. She wants to KNOW that you’re going to keep your eyes open throughout sex because you just can’t take them off her body. You should listen to me, good men – you’re missing out on some fun!

        • As long as you’re ready to up your game and take it all to a better level, she’s not going to complain. She wants you to turn into a caveman and drag her by the hair to the bearskin by the fireplace – break the routine.

          Speak for yourself, lady. I laugh at “Game/PUA” and do not like cavemen, nor being dragged by my hair. If you get off on that, more men for you! But congratulations on your site – not only is it designed terribly, but all the women on it look like orange clowns, straight-up. I like femmes and I wouldn’t touch any of those women with a 10-foot pole. My husband, who also likes femmes, got a good laugh at your site and said, “I’m not impressed.”

          Maybe you’re someone who got a really bad breast job and is now trying to swindle other people into getting ugly work done too so you won’t be the only one. It’s as pathetic as parents who secretly loathe their kids but complain that people who don’t want them are “selfish.” You want $17 for your book? Come on, this is a pyramid scheme.

          This is definitely worthy of submission to “Worst Web Sites of All Time,” too. Considering that generally, to be up for that award, you have to use tons of blink tags, rotating gifs, and Comic Sans, I’d say you have something to be proud of.

  21. I think natural breast are beautiful! They are a strong sign of womanhood and beauty. However, consider for a moment that you are an attracive woman that never had breasts. How would you feel? Although, I fully agree that natural and proportonate breast are by far superior I was never blessed with them. I am a married, successful, mother of 2 perfect children (both breastfed). I am attractive and appreciate my body. However, I am extremely uncomfortable in most clothing and my self confidence is lacking due to my extremely flat chest. I am not unhappy because I have a small chest I literally have NO chest. I am undergoing augmentation in about a week and I am looking very forward to the results. I am not doing it to impress a man as my husband is very much a “butt man”. I am doing this simply for myself. To improve the way I feel about myself. Modern science has come very far in the last years. There is no reason that a person has to feel as ashamed as I have for so long. The only regret I have is not having it done much earlier in my life.

  22. Everyone has different taste. Some people like natural some people like fake. I personally
    Love looking fake . Breast implants , extensions , makeup , platinum bleach blonde hair etc . I love the barbiedoll look. Society pushes for girls to be natural I think that’s wrong I think that everyone should look however they want to. Looking fake makes me happy part of the reason why I like the fake Barbie look is because it’s very feminine. We are all born a blank canvas and we all choose how we desire to look. Plastic surgery is a personal think it’s up to you and no one else . So if a girls gets breast implants that’s her choice and no one has the right to comment. I see all these polls on the Internet fake beauty vs natural. I think that’s stupid because all men have different taste my boyfriend loves my style he’s right into the fake look . He calls me his perfect dream doll so all men are different. People can look however they want to .

  23. I got directed here from the NYT. I think men these days are exposed to so many images of slim, big breasted women that this is their new “ideal”. Of course, a slim physique with full breasts and hips signifies fertility…but the new ideal is a cartoonish version. Think about every Victoria’s Secret model-almost fatless, yet with seemingly tons of fat deposition on their chests (Silicone). I am hispanic, with a curvy body and small B size boobs and i have had two men tell me that I have an amazing body but i could do with some implants…both were american…it makes me sad that thanks to porn, now the american ideals of looks will be worldwide.

  24. I Think there´s nothing wrong whith Breast Implants. They are spreading because people LIKE it: men and WOMEN. Yes, bigger breasts ( not enormous, just proportional or slightly big) look prettier and more feminine. Good surgeons make beautiful, real looking silicone boobs that men love, thought they think is kind of “imoral” to admit it.
    People, we are blessed with a world of tecnology that makes our lifes BETTER. I understand the tabu because there are real healthy risks since it´s a surgery. But, if science in a distant future make it as safe as changing hair color, nobody will judge and we all will stop telling “feel good” lies.

    • Silicon boobs never looked real naked. You have not seen REAL huge tits, have you?

      This is why I advocate PUBLIC breastfeeding in America. Americans need to get acquainted what real breasts look like.

      When was the NON-JIGGLY, and stiff-looking silicon boobs superior to the bouncy NATURALS? NEVER. Silicon breasts are weird. They don’t jiggle during love making

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  1. [...] months ago I wrote an article entitled, “Is Fake Really Better?”in which I interviewed a broad range of men and women with personal experience and expertise in [...]

  2. [...] presented by understanding men better. I should generate a huge response. Cosmic! To wit, you might be tired of hearing [...]

  3. [...] is an excerpt of that piece. When I asked a ton of men and women about breast enhancement I got a remarkable diversity of responses. It would be easy to criticize women who get fake boobs and men who admit to liking [...]

  4. [...] is an excerpt of that piece. When I asked a ton of men and women about breast enhancement I got a remarkable diversity of responses. It would be easy to criticize women who get fake boobs and men who admit to liking [...]

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