What does the rapid increase in breast augmentation say about all of us?
A few weeks ago we ran into a relative who had been going through a difficult patch in her life. What I saw made my heart sink. Our relative had gotten breast augmentation surgery since the last time I had seen her. For whatever reason it just smacked me in the face because I had thought she was such an attractive woman—she carried herself with the kind of grace that makes a person look even more beautiful, not less, with age. So it really upset me that she had felt the need to change herself and, in my view, look less real and frankly to my eye less attractive.
This set my mind off: What the hell is going on in our country that women think they need fake breasts to be okay with their bodies? What does that say about women? What does that say about men? And what is going on with gender when fake is so much more adored than something real?
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While some experiments with breast augmentation date back to the 19th century, the first widespread use was during the 1940s, when Japanese prostitutes began to have their breasts injected with substances such as paraffin in the hope that American servicemen stationed there after the war would favor them with larger breasts.
Fast-forward to today. Over 300,000 women and teenage girls underwent surgery last year to have their breasts enlarged with silicone or saline implants, and more than 80,000 more had reconstruction after being treated for cancer. According to Diana Zuckerman, president of the National Research Center for Women & Families, the number of cosmetic implants has tripled over the last decade. And 40,000 with implants underwent removal last year.
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The CEO of a chain of strip clubs told me that 90 percent of his dancers have breast enhancements. But, he said, “It is more about the stripper building her self-confidence and feeling good about herself, and less about the demand from the customer. Usually if the girl is unhappy with the size or shape of her breasts, she will opt to have implant surgery to be better able to compete with the other entertainers in the industry to make more money.”
I asked him about the women who get what appear to be particularly grotesque large implants and the motivation behind that. “Feature entertainers are performers who have established themselves in the industry by appearing in adult magazines and films, therefore receiving credits. They are paid to travel to gentlemen’s clubs to perform as a headline entertainer on stage. Since they really need to stand out from the ‘house dancers,’ they usually opt to go larger than normal.”
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I asked a bunch of guys what they thought about breast implants in order to get a random sampling of what men really think.
John is a 46-year-old business owner who has lived in Las Vegas for 21 years, and a self-admitted “breast snob.” He has watched the dramatic increase of breast implants in Vegas and, from talking to other guys, believes he is in the minority—but he is a strong proponent of natural breasts. “To me it’s all about the way real breasts look, move, and especially how they feel,” he told me. “I mean, with my girl on top, real boobs swaying and bouncing, life is good! While fakes may look great to fill out clothing, they just don’t look right naked.”
Of the guys I talked to, in fact, a majority asserted that they found natural breasts more attractive than breasts that had been surgically augmented. Men who spent a lot of time in strip clubs or watching porn more often admitted to liking enhanced breasts. Like a 26-year-old acquaintance in New York said of fake breasts, “They look better, feel better, and you can have more fun with ‘em!” His theory, beyond just finding the larger, artificially enhanced breasts sexy, is that a woman who has surgery actually has more confidence in herself, opinions be damned. In his mind, breast enhancement shows a woman cares about her appearance.
Dave, 52 and from St. Louis, has spent plenty of time in strip clubs. He disagrees; he has always looked for women with natural breasts. “Even if they were petite,” he tells me, “I sought their attention and gave them mine over some gal with big, hard, stretched-out fake tits. Those are the worst. Why did I go? I love looking at women and enjoyed receiving their attention. The feeling of a naked or near-naked woman in your lap is never a bad thing in my book. My taste in porn is the same as in a club—I am consistent. I hate bad, big boob jobs. I also do not get turned on by big, hanging, natural udders.”
Then there are men like Bob in Buffalo, New York, whose wife has one real breast; the other was taken in a mastectomy due to breast cancer. His wife’s breasts were small, and in order to get the unaffected breast to match the breast that was removed she would have had to have enhanced both breasts. The surgery sounded so grueling to them that she opted not to have it. “I think it’s very sad that so many women are getting breast implants,” Bob told me. “Regardless of what people think, it is a horrible surgery. I think most women are mistaken in their belief that it makes them more attractive and it saddens me that they are wasting their time, money, and risking their health for something that I don’t think is true.”
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Jenna T. is a 25-year-old senior account executive at a public relations firm. She has always had a tall and lean body type which, she told me, “is wonderful, but I unfortunately was not blessed with breasts, so I have always felt disproportional and self-conscious about having nothing there.”
After extensive consultation with her mom, who she calls her best friend, and her sister-in-law, Jenna decided to have sub-glandular silicone breast augmentation last month. “I am unbelievably happy. I feel more confident, and finally fit into my clothes,” she reported afterwards.
Jenna spoke eloquently about how important it is to feel good in your own skin and how she thinks that if there is anything holding you back from being confident and happy, there’s nothing wrong with changing it—with or without plastic surgery. She admitted that some male perceptions of the perfect female body include big boobs, but she maintains that she got her surgery for herself and only herself.
“I certainly do not believe in the ‘perfect body,’ nor do I think it’s necessary for women to get a breast augmentation solely for attention; however, if it is something that will make you a happier person inside and out, I don’t think women or men should be judgmental about it.”
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Pablo Solomon is a 63-year-old sculptor of some note who has been studying women’s bodies now for four decades, in his studio just north of Austin, Texas. He is internationally known for his drawings and sculptures of dancers, many of whom are nude.
“I prefer available,” he jokes when I ask him about his preference in breasts. But he goes on to tell me that he is finding it harder and harder to find women with real breasts who do figure work, which is his strong preference.
“As an artist,” he says, “I look for models who exhibit a variety of looks. Some of my favorite models have small breasts. The look that I want is for the model to be fit and balanced with that something special, which is often hard to define.”
Pablo has been married to the same woman for 35 years, a model and then account executive for Diane Von Furstenberg, Revlon, and Ralph Lauren. She did a lot of swimwear and lingerie modeling and had always had “great legs, an hourglass figure and perfect butt” according to Pablo. Her breasts are real. She not only has hired many models as an executive but also has always gotten the models for Pablo. “She will tell you that even the women who are born absolutely beautiful often have poor self-images. I have had art models who were virtually perfect but ruined their balance by over doing the breast size,” Pablo says.
Pablo does commissions for elite clientele, often men with mistresses. Almost all of these women have fake breasts. One major big shot for whom Pablo created sculptures sent all his mistresses to the same plastic surgeon to be molded into identical clones, with outrageous breasts for their slim figures. This always makes him sad.
“To me,” he says, “attractiveness stems from the woman being fit, with poise, good posture, a balanced look and yes—a fun personality.”
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Grace Gold, 28, author of a book titled The Boob Job Bible, is a journalist covering the beauty industry. Jene’ Luciani, 33, is a well-known style correspondent and author of The Bra Book. Both have had breast augmentation. They are both experts in female beauty and style in general but have faced the issue of breast surgery in their own lives for different reasons.
Grace was a competitive figure skater throughout her childhood and teenage years. She had a strong sense of self and healthy relationships with boyfriends, but from a young age she was inspired by the glamour and femininity of old Hollywood. “I’ve always surrounded myself with images of beauties from that golden era, from Marilyn Monroe to Jane Russell to Sophia Loren,” she told me.
Even though she felt like there was nothing wrong with her 34B cup, she dreamed of something different for ten years before she had 310 cc of volume added when she was 25. “I said to myself, ‘You only have one life to live. Why not just do it?’”
Jene’ always had a “dirty little secret” she hid below her shirt. As a teen she developed tubular breast syndrome, “something that you don’t often hear about but that’s quite common in women,” she told me. “One of my breasts was over a cup size smaller than the other and took on a cone-like shape.” This medical issue caused Jene’ to be insecure and have profound body image problems.
Finally, when she was 21 and working full-time for NBC News, she decided to have surgery to lift one breast and insert saline implants into both. “I don’t think I could have lived my entire life feeling the way I did as a teen—I always felt like a mutant because of the way my breasts were. It was liberating to ‘fix’ them,” she says now.
Jene’ used to be embarrassed to show her breasts to boys, but with a bit of science she is more comfortable now. She ignores the snide remarks she would hear made by men who didn’t understand the emotional duress that caused her to go ahead with the surgery. “Women as sexual beings,” she says, “feel a lot of pressure to have perfect bodies and perfect breasts. This unattainable idea of perfection is dangerous, especially to young girls.”
Grace agrees. “Living in this society, aren’t we all influenced by male perceptions of female beauty? Look at ads, movies, magazines, television, performers, etc.,” she says. “Women are exceedingly presented through the male viewpoint. Even in women’s magazines, you’ll see sexed-up ads and photos that could easily slip right into a men’s magazine like GQ or Maxim. So I definitely think the male perception of female beauty pervades every visual aspect of American society. But with that said, I never had any trouble dating with a small cup, and I don’t even think it’s a significant factor that men take into consideration when feeling attracted to a woman. I didn’t get a boob job to get more dates; I did it to feel the glamour and sense of femininity that I had come to associate with a full cup.”
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In all of this I had to re-evaluate my preconceived notions of breast implants as the source of evil on Planet Earth. I do find the acceleration of the procedures alarming and get pretty sick to my stomach when I see more and more women with plastic surgery that, at least to my eyes, is grotesque.
My view on the aggregate level has not changed that much. Kind of like with the prevalence of porn in our country, I still firmly believe that we should all take the obsession with fake over real when it comes to gender relations as a red flag. It shows that we aren’t really willing or able to deal with each other directly—unfiltered, middle-aged body to middle-aged body. We would prefer the fantasy, whether on the Web or in the breast (or, when it comes to strippers, both at the same time).
But when it comes to each individual woman’s decision as to what to do with her own body, my judgments really have no bearing whatsoever. Who the hell am I to pass judgment on Jenna the 25-year-old PR executive, or anyone else for that matter?
In the end, I think what scared me the most when I saw our relative and her new breasts was the impact of seeing so many women getting augmentation might have on my daughter, my sister, my wife and the other women who I hold dear. But having thought about it more, I now realize that a woman’s body is her own. No man can tell her what to do with it. Not even her father or her husband or her brother.
…or if praying doesn’t work there is always this.
—gallery photo: ringoblu/Flickr
I Think there´s nothing wrong whith Breast Implants. They are spreading because people LIKE it: men and WOMEN. Yes, bigger breasts ( not enormous, just proportional or slightly big) look prettier and more feminine. Good surgeons make beautiful, real looking silicone boobs that men love, thought they think is kind of “imoral” to admit it. People, we are blessed with a world of tecnology that makes our lifes BETTER. I understand the tabu because there are real healthy risks since it´s a surgery. But, if science in a distant future make it as safe as changing hair color, nobody will… Read more »
Silicon boobs never looked real naked. You have not seen REAL huge tits, have you?
This is why I advocate PUBLIC breastfeeding in America. Americans need to get acquainted what real breasts look like.
When was the NON-JIGGLY, and stiff-looking silicon boobs superior to the bouncy NATURALS? NEVER. Silicon breasts are weird. They don’t jiggle during love making
I got directed here from the NYT. I think men these days are exposed to so many images of slim, big breasted women that this is their new “ideal”. Of course, a slim physique with full breasts and hips signifies fertility…but the new ideal is a cartoonish version. Think about every Victoria’s Secret model-almost fatless, yet with seemingly tons of fat deposition on their chests (Silicone). I am hispanic, with a curvy body and small B size boobs and i have had two men tell me that I have an amazing body but i could do with some implants…both were… Read more »
Everyone has different taste. Some people like natural some people like fake. I personally Love looking fake . Breast implants , extensions , makeup , platinum bleach blonde hair etc . I love the barbiedoll look. Society pushes for girls to be natural I think that’s wrong I think that everyone should look however they want to. Looking fake makes me happy part of the reason why I like the fake Barbie look is because it’s very feminine. We are all born a blank canvas and we all choose how we desire to look. Plastic surgery is a personal think… Read more »
I think natural breast are beautiful! They are a strong sign of womanhood and beauty. However, consider for a moment that you are an attracive woman that never had breasts. How would you feel? Although, I fully agree that natural and proportonate breast are by far superior I was never blessed with them. I am a married, successful, mother of 2 perfect children (both breastfed). I am attractive and appreciate my body. However, I am extremely uncomfortable in most clothing and my self confidence is lacking due to my extremely flat chest. I am not unhappy because I have a… Read more »
That’s not MY website, but it’s one that contributors to this blog will find interesting. I’m just 32, but I am quite sure the following are true. And let me preface this by saying the comments above that I read are both sincere and silly, poignant and sometimes just head-in-the-sand about reality. So…here goes. Men loving, obsessing over, being willing to go to extreme lengths to touch, big breasts – that is just nature and has little to do societal pressure. it has nothing to do with being good or bad. If you want your wife or girlfriend to have… Read more »
Your website:
“Being manipulated isn’t so bad”
Manipulate:
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one’s own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one’s purpose.
So you think that being persuaded to fork out a couple of grand and to radically alter your body is a good thing?
Jesus wept.
Oops, the URL did not show. It is http://www.implants4her.com and — sure, being manipulated is absolutely fine if it gets you to a good destination. The last commentator is soooo dramatic: Jesus wept. Not over this, I’m sure. If God made us, he had some reason that SEX IS MORE FUN WHEN BOTH PEOPLE ARE TURNED ON – and that he made sure men are REALLY – at least the majority of them are – MUCH more turned on when the woman has big breasts. And Jesus is probably not weeping over this, and the media didn’t invent this primal… Read more »
As long as you’re ready to up your game and take it all to a better level, she’s not going to complain. She wants you to turn into a caveman and drag her by the hair to the bearskin by the fireplace – break the routine. Speak for yourself, lady. I laugh at “Game/PUA” and do not like cavemen, nor being dragged by my hair. If you get off on that, more men for you! But congratulations on your site – not only is it designed terribly, but all the women on it look like orange clowns, straight-up. I like… Read more »
I’m planning for a “job” Dec 1st. I’m a mother of a 5 yr and 18 mo. Not once has my husband complained about my breast or even recommended augmenting them. It’s something I’ve always wanted. He continues to tell me that I’m “fine the way I am”…..but I’m not doing this for him (obviously). There is a bad stigma on women who have gone under the knife; yes, some get them for the wrong reasons. and as much as I want them, I get discouraged because I don’t want ppl to think I’m less of a person, or an… Read more »
Your post went a bit deeper than my recent article about baby breast implants on Daddy by Default, but it’s an interesting topic, nonetheless. I think people are polarized on this, and site on the fence between personal preference and a disturbing change in culture. Some would consider breast augmentation for beauty purposes a form of self mutilation, which has religious connotations as well, I think. Some say it’s been done for centuries throughout the world, and even those who get their ears pierced are practicing a form of self mutilation. Others, like myself, believe it to be a form… Read more »
” What the hell is going on in our country that women think they need fake breasts to be okay with their bodies? ” Where do you live? Under a rock? If fake boobs weren’t idolized, no one would get them. Tv, movies, magazines, porn. You name it. The statement “I hate bad, big boob jobs. I also do not get turned on by big, hanging, natural udders” quoted in your article just say it all. Hate is such a strong word. This man thinks both enhanced and natural boobs are grotesque. God forbid a woman not be born with… Read more »
Yes, I agree that’s a horrible statement. So women with naturally big boobs have “udders”. Why can’t this guy just say he prefers small breasts and leave it at that? Why the hate?
From a single male perspective in the dating world i appreciate a woman with small to average cup size,,but tbh in reality breasts do not even enter into the equation though for most i-like most dudes have no preference for how big your chest is.The first thing i notice when i approach a gal is her EYES.I couldn’t give a flip about perfectly symetrical boobs,large or anything else.Im sorry that ‘some’ women feel pressure and or the need to get implants.
I think many small and big chested girls appreicate your whole standpoint Blond dude.
It’s becasue of people like you, Blond dude, that my niece is asking for green eyed contact lenses !!
Are you really trying to make him feels guilty for noticing a womans eyes?
You not doubt reserve the right to notice features that you like for yourself.
You ideology is as as bad as islam, just you want the burka in the minds and over the eyes of men.
And in reality, your niece is probably more influenced by the gimmy-gmmy-gimmy consumerism and vanity of the older women around her and the media that they leave around for her to see than men who like nice eyes.
Yeah well, first off, I’m a proud atheist. Second, I was being ironic-facetious and hoping my double exclamation mark, at the end, would have been a tip off. But anyway, why would it be, exactly, that noticing someone’s eyes is more wholesome than noticing someone’s breasts? Are eyes the mirror of the soul? Are there more poems about eyes than there are poems of breasts? Do you know that surgery for Asians who want more Western looking eyes is not that uncommon? Dude comes on here and praises eyes and there is some expected fawning over his superior motivations. It’s… Read more »
Ok fair enough.
I did get the sense that there was something about his post, like he expected a pat on the head for the right answer.
There is nothing wrong with noticing someones eyes, or their breasts, its all pretty much the same thing and unless you are blind, physical features are what people notice first.
Its only in religions, and I consider feminism a religion, that you get totalitarian rules and sham surrounding about who can show and who can look at what.
The first thing i notice when i approach a gal is her EYES
Hell yes. I can’t promise its always the first thing I notice but i can promise its always one of the first things I notice.
This is something that I think is often overlooked in terms of attraction (or people don’t bring it up because getting a good look at someone’s eyes means eye contact which some people perceieve as threatening when in fact they’re not).
What happens to someone who has “unattractive” eyes? Too narrow? Not enough lashes? Dull color? Asymmetrical? They might not get noticed right away… I think being attracted to one body part is the same as being attracted to any other. So, if we know what the other sex is attracted to, why wouldn’t we try to enhance it? Increase our chances of catching the other’s attention? Eye-liner = push-up bra. Blepharoplasty = breast implants. And if “natural beauty” is what men really want, then should women stop wearing makeup and doing their hair? Because without a little mascara and a… Read more »
Sorry, Danny, I realize that post strayed from being a direct response to yours. Tangents…
What happens to someone who has “unattractive” eyes? Too narrow? Not enough lashes? Dull color? Asymmetrical? They might not get noticed right away… Simple I make my comment to myself and go about my business. However if I were to impose my opinion like telling them they should get surgery or contacts or something like that, it would be a problem. And as I said above its a preference not a potentially deal breaking requirement. As an aside. Last week someone on my facebook list shared a picture of Olivia Wilde. I was so busy caught up in her grey… Read more »
Dany said: “While not a body part you have guys that see that women are attracted to status and money. So guys try to flash and make lots of money to attract women. Said men who do that are often called shallow…” I don’t know where you live, but where I live, men aren’t flashing their money and status to get dates. Most guys dress causally, not in suits. My friends aren’t all dating doctors and lawyers. Most are dating blue collar guys. Women aren’t masturbating to media of men showing off their moeny and status either. There isn’t a… Read more »
I don’t know where you live, but where I live, men aren’t flashing their money and status to get dates. Most guys dress causally, not in suits. My friends aren’t all dating doctors and lawyers. Most are dating blue collar guys. Women aren’t masturbating to media of men showing off their moeny and status either. There isn’t a huge following of women attracted to Donald Trump for a reason. But there are average guys everywhere that do look at media that shows unrealistic standards about women’s beauty. I’ve sat and listened to women talk about how a guy has to… Read more »
Yes Danny, women do sit around talking about men and some women do wnat to be taken care of. Some women want to be homemakers. Some don’t. How many women do you know that actually don’t have to work along with their mate? How many media forms do you know that are out there that women are physically masturbating to that are all about a man’s money and wealth? How many average guys do you know sit around that physically masturbate to goregous young women? I don’t think women that place an importance on money is a figment of your… Read more »
But I do think women aren’t nearly as critical as you think. So many of my friends date blue collar guys. And they work too! And they aren’t going home at the end of the night and masturbating to some fantasy image of a man with tons of money spending lots of money on her. But that are shutting men out based solely based on how much money they make (frankly I think said men are better off but I think its worth pointing out). The quality of the women that slepted with him wasn’t exactly high quality. Would you… Read more »
As a gal who has a larger chest, it really isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be. I wish I was a B-cup again. 🙁 It’s hot in the South and more boob means more boob sweat. More boob also means gravity wins. Media depictions of the “perfect” female body has warped what women think they ought to look like, when the reality is that plastic surgery is the only way to achieve that look. Companies are telling you your body is inadequate in order to sell a product. It’s hard to let go of the computer-generated, airbrushed, photoshopped,… Read more »
I just wrote an article on same subject; 10 Reasons Not To Get Breast Implants
http://www.christinaneumeyer.blogspot.com
Natural is more beautiful. Surgery is okay by me if it is to repair a problem. I had a friend in college with mismatched boob sizes, and I thought she looked great. (We went to a college with a lot of nude sunbathing. We weren’t lovers.)
1) Just as the size of a man’s penis or muscles can make him feel more/less masculine, so the size of a woman’s breasts make her feel more or less feminine. I have always been very small on top, and it makes me feel less womanly. Working for a plastic surgery review site, I have come across many women who say the same thing. Having full breasts is one thing that has always made women different from men, so it seems only natural that we feel a desire to enhance that distinction. 2) Regardless of who started it (men or… Read more »
I’m sorry Erin But the crusade by privileged american feminists to get men to believe that grown women should be pampered , molly coddled and fathered by men as a group is totally and utterly unreasonable. You’d just like to “get men” to think this, understand that, take responsibility for you, to control men and manipulate them into the role of your father and protector and whipping boy. If women have a problem with the media, stop worshiping it, celebrities and taking your cues from it, disconnect. If you have a problem with beauty standards, stop competing with each other… Read more »
Go To, please point to what I specifically said that pointed to women being pampered, molly coddled or treated like children? Why is asking for men to try and understand something that is a big issue for women a negative to you? You want to talk about immaturity, that’s a pretty immature standpoint. Don’t put ideas and thoughts into my comments that aren’t there. What I would like is to “get men” to understand a little better about the issues women face just like WOMEN should try to understand better the issues men face. It is a two way street.… Read more »
Erin I see you here supporting gynocretrism, woman worship and paternalism here all the time, the constant only way demands for respect and your woman worshiping professor and the imploring the men her to see things that way too. And no I dont think that the only way to respect women is paternalism, feminism and the brand of paternal male feminism thats promoted here, doesn’t respect women and equals, it infantilizes them and objectifies them as delicate, virtuous and pure victims. Respecting women, is not treating them like children and sacred cows but fortunately respecting women, which is now demanded… Read more »
Edit
Respecting women, is not treating them like children and sacred cows but unfortunately respecting women, which is now demanded for all women regardless, has somehow been morphed into worshiping them and infantalizing them by privileged, middle class american feminist women.
Again, I will repeat my orignal question, what specifically in what I said points to treating women like children, “sacred cows” or men treating women with paternalism? You also said you “see” me “supporting gynocretrism”. Again, show me exactly where you see me doing in that in my comments. You keep tossing around these emotionally charged words so you better have specific points from my post that you can draw on to prove your claims before egregiously lying about what I’ve been saying. Did I claim women didn’t need to do their part? Did I not claim that women need… Read more »
Hi Erin Just to make this clear. You are saying that talking about women’s thinking, attitudes or behaviour in a negative light is verboten in my response to you about gynocnetricity and the objectification of women as sacred cows? We live in a gynocentric culture in which the privileged women have been taught to believe that they are the victims of an horrific oppression so they cant see the gynocentricity. Our culture is so gynocentric, that any sort of negative thoughts or speech about women is taboo, as you have demonstrated with your rule for our discussion.. This magazine we… Read more »
Go To, let me ask you another question (by the way, I am still waiting on response from all the previous questions I’ve asked you that you’ve ignored.) What is *your* definition of “gynocentricity”? If you do not like what this magazine represents, what are you even doing here to begin with? Clearly it’s not the place for you. And your attention to it only succeeds in making it more active. You’ve done nothing this entire time to talk about the specific topic of the article. All you’ve done is make broad generalizations about femininism, women, “gynocentrisity” (as *you* define… Read more »
Erin
I did answer you, feminism and womens issues couched in a mens publication that actively suppresses mens issues in favour of women’s is gynocracy. I think that statement answers your second question too.
Large strides have been made against MGM recently in the US, at least 1 in 10 american men have been falsely accused of abuse not including rape etc.. etc.. and TGMP is agonising about men being responsible poor little rich girls having plastic surgery to gain more sexual attention for themselves and boost their self esteem. That is gynocracy.
Oh complete nonsense, you didn’t answer one question I asked you. We both know you actively avoided answering anything in favor or using the same vitriol to spread your personal agenda. It’s not even an agenda that does much good for men. All this publication has to do for men like you to get hot and bothered is say the word “women”, and you go up in flames. You can’t stand the idea that there are thoughtful men out there that are JUST as concerned about issues how they, as men, treat women; just as they are concered about how… Read more »
Amen. Erin, i commend you for taking time to respond to some of your critics…but I think it is pointless, as you’ve mentioned it is clear some live their lives going on a “one way street” and evidently that is more natural for them. Trying to show them another route or perspective is oh so confusing to them! I think jennifer garner is a natural beauty and she kicks ass on screen. Kim kardasian is a mannequin with an elephant’s butt…don’t know why her butt is so famous…must be because men like them big…something to do with sex I think.… Read more »
The problem is, women fear that we need to meet male expectations or we will never “get a man” — ANY man. The majority of men are pursuing women at the top level of attractiveness. If you are a woman who decides to defy beauty standards, you will probably never get a date, not even with men “in your league.”. Men don’t want unattractive women. Unattractive women get the message over and over again (not just from men, from other women too) that you are invisible, you have no value, you don’t exist. So telling women to just stop worrying… Read more »
Susan
You are likely conflating male expectations with what you see in your media and female competition.
Feminist women have a habit of projecting all responsibility for what women do, onto men.
And I’m sure lots of men have approached you. Also, have you considered approaching men instead of using peacocking to make one approach you?
Actually I usually spend way less time and energy on my appearance than most women do. I hate wearing make up, low cut tops or mini skirts. I dress pretty conservatively. However, being one of those lucky women who is naturally busty, I know from personal experience that wearing a low cut, tight top makes a huge difference in the amount of attention I get. If I’m wearing a low cut top, 10 guys might talk to me in one evening. In a conservative top, maybe one, or none. Because I’m not comfortable “peacocking,” and never have been, my romantic… Read more »
Susan
you are on another thread saying that you rarely get hit on, and in this you are talking about being hit on ten times a night.
So it seems how often you are being hit on depends on what argument you are trying to make. This is why conversations between feminists and non feminists get difficult and frustrating, there is an honesty gap.
I consider myself of average attractiveness, but flaunting my chest results in much more attention than otherwise. That’s my point.
I’ve never said I never get hit on, just not that much compared to other women.
So your point is that if you make a sexual display, you get a lot of sexual attention and when you aren’t making a sexual display, you don’t get as much sexual attention as women that are making sexual displays? Your point, that you are marginalized in the dating market on the other thread is moot, because you are saying here that you have the power to chose between being hot on 10 times a night and hit on very little, which is a position of power on the dating market that not even the most high status men are… Read more »
Okay maybe 10 would be a very good night. LOL. what I’m trying to say is that flaunting my chest can get me a lot of attention while otherwise I’m generally ignored. I’ve never said in any of my comments that I get zero attention, just that I get way less than the types of hot women that PUA’s are always pursuing and talking about. There ARE a lot of women who get zero attention and PUA’s don’t seem to realize that those women even exist. Older women, fatter women, nerdy women, etc. That’s my point on the other thread.… Read more »
Right Susan.
You are telling lies to try and make points, and now its misdirection and more lies about obsessions. Look at Sara, she is down below making up stories about experiments to make her point.
And so it always goes in discussions with feminists, lies and more lies.
And when men talk about the power difference in the dating market they are talking about averages. You for example, you say you are average, and get hit on ten times on a good night if you indicate that you are looking for sexual attention, and you backed up that point.
Again I NEVER SAID I DON’T GET SEXUAL ATTENTION. Jesus.
Susan
“Again I NEVER SAID I DON’T GET SEXUAL ATTENTION. Jesus.”
I never said you said that, stop strawmaning. You said you get hit rarely on that thread because it fit your agenda, and you said 10 times on a good night here to suit you agenda.
Look, I’m going to withdraw from this because you are only going to come back with another set of lies. Its pointless trying to have discussions with feminists.
Nothing I have said is inconsistent. It’s absolutely true I rarely get hit on and it’s also true I get hit on a lot more if I dress provocatively, but I don’t like to dress provocatively. It’s also true that there are a lot of women who never get hit on (which is my point) while a small minority of young very attractive women get hit on all the time. PUA’s only think about the last group and all of their complaints about women are based on that. However I am done with this argument because you are going to… Read more »
Go to, you are not a woman. You don’t know what you’re talking about in regard to women approaching men. I’ve actually done experiments on dating sites where I approach men… the results were disastrous… almost 100% of the guys I reached out to assumed I was 1.) A prostitute 2.) Easy 3.) Worthless. Many of them even said as much. Being forward and making contact with men is NOT rewarded. Too many immediately assume the worst of the woman doing the approaching… that either she is easy or that no one wants her and she is ‘forced’ to seek… Read more »
Sara
That sounds like a lie to be honest. I suspect you are avoiding responsibility for having the courage to face possible rejection by blaming men and society.
I don’t believe that you able to design an experiment that allowed to to read the minds and motivations of the respondents and that the results were “almost 100%” the same.
If you are not lying, post us a link to your experiment or some proof that you under took it.
I didn’t read their minds I read their responses. Which were almost uniformly foul.
You’re going to have to take my word on it. If you don’t well, how do we know everything you’re spouting off about women isn’t all a lie too?
Instead of being so quick to respond defensively to something that apparently is a big issue for women, perhaps a better way to look at this issue is to take a step back and as a man, not blame women for their choices or automatically make the connection that women are blaming men for their choices. I’d be more encouraged to hear from men: “women do face a lot of pressure and I can understand why they do or don’t get breast implants.” Instead of some of the defensive this-is-all-women’s-fault-and-women’s-own- issue-to-deal-with attitude that doesn’t really help men and women bridge… Read more »
AMEN. Thank you for such a thoughtful response.
Thanks Makenzie!
Ditto. very well expressed.
Exactly, thank you.
Tom Matlock
Are you serious, you don’t like the fact that men don’t share collective responsibility and guilt for womens vanity and their decisions to get breast enhancements?
You are more than welcome to languish in the feminist constructed, oppressive prison of collective male guilt, but don’t expect the rest of us to join you.
Let me know when you get out, and I’ll buy you a pint.
I will readily admit men are not at all at fault for this. It’s mostly women who pressure each other to have enhanced breasts. I have never once heard of a man pressuring his wife or girlfriend or whatever to have enhanced breasts. In fact, on an episode of True Life, the women who wanted breast implants did so because either their mothers or their friends were pressuring them. Their boyfriends were just fine with the way they are and tried to discourage them from doing so, but they kept claiming it’s a confidence thing–or even a bullying thing. Confidence… Read more »
I’ve definitely heard of men who pressure and even go so far as to offer to pay for, breast enhancement for girlfriends or even women they are casually dating.
Ive heard more of pressure on men to pay for for the implants that the woman wants, Ive even seen women advertising looking for a man to pay for her implants.
What you probably heard about are lies that the woman later told, “he made me do it”.
“I have never once heard of a man pressuring his wife or girlfriend or whatever to have enhanced breasts.” Wow. Have you been hiding under a rock?! Your statement makes me feel angry and invalidated because it’s happened to me. When I was 16, I actually had a boyfriend pressure me to get implants (and other surgeries). He said he wouldn’t consider marrying me if I didn’t. That really hurt. Thankfully, I was smart enough to not want to stay with a jerk like that. A later boyfriend/jerk ALSO said he would prefer me with bigger breasts. In fact, the… Read more »
I am just going to dip my toe in here because Clark and other are making broad, untrue statements about the site and what we are trying to do. I personally have a pretty strong bias against breast augmentation as a phenomenon not only because fake over real isn’t something I find aesthetically pleasing in pretty much anything, but because as a father of a 17 year-old girl and wife of a 46 year-old women I am sensitive to the pressure the women in my life are under as they walk around a world that is dominated by porn, swimming… Read more »
I’m basing this response on this ^^^ particular response you’ve posted. If you and I and (I believe the majority) of the American male population find natural breast more aesthetically pleasing, where then is this pressure coming from for women to opt for augmentation? Also where is this obsession coming from? And, why is that obsession being insinuated as male-centric? Also, from your statement: “I wrote the piece because I saw a women I care a lot about who got plastic surgery I really think out of a kind of despair that made her look, in my personal view, worse… Read more »
“Do you believe women (or the majority of) who do augment do so because of some sort of esteem/insecurity issue? Why isn’t as much credence given to the idea that women themselves choose to augment because THEY find it more attractive?” Read the piece. I don’t think the women who got augmentation would say they did it because of insecurity in general. Many would say men had nothing to do with it. But what I came to having talked to a bunch of women who had implants and a bunch of guys who have all kinds of proclivities, and frequent… Read more »
Well I definitely appreciate the fact that you take time out to participate in discussions in the commenting section. Whether or not we agree on a certain issue it is refreshing that you make yourself available in such a way.
Tom: I’m curious about the porn angle. Why are we so quick to blame adult movies for society’s ills? What about actresses with boob jobs in mainstream movies? Or how about the fact that going under the knife for elective surgery is thought of as commonplace now? I think those things have much more to do with the prevalence of plastic surgery than porn. And if I am gawking at fake tits in porn, it’s probably not because I’m attracted to them. To the contrary, I’m probably flabbergasted at how huge, hard and nasty they look and I’m viewing it… Read more »
I do think women are out to impress each other but have actually talked to a lot on this topic and pretty consistently breasts are not something that goes into that category. Breasts are a guy thing is what I have been told by women who have had augmentation and those that haven’t. Take that for what its worth but that is what my unscientific sample would say. On porn I am actually talking about quite a bit of research done around the topic that draws the correlation. Unscientifically, of course, you can just go on the fact that 90%… Read more »
Tom,
Thank you for writing this article. An earlier comment mentioned that men are also affected by the pressure to have enough girth, length and generally look impressive…..Personally, I have mixed attention from men and would do anything to change how I feel about my body, my hatred for what I see in the mirror because of what I see is most valued by the media
I really recommend reading Jenna Jameson’s book “How To Make Love Like A Porn Star”. It gives you the strippers point of view that might clarify a few things for you folks…
When the hell will women have to take full responsibility for the choices they make? Seems like every article on this site perpetuates this idea that the “evils of patriarchy”, and the “Male Gaze”, and male this and that etc. are the very least equally responsible for decisions that women make. You would think from reading this site that women had absolutely no agency whatsoever. Are women THAT insecure and easily influenced by male opinions? Are men THAT overbearing and hell bent on controlling every aspect of female existence? Hell no! Bottom line women who get augmentation for whatever reason… Read more »
That is not true. Sometimes it can mean someone’s career. Especially if you a dancer, model, in the service industry, or do anything related to ‘image’. It could be your economic livelihood.
We don’t blame union workers for not being willing to work for 2 cents an hour like their competition across the world…
Daddy Files: But I don’t think men bear any responsibility for the increase of fake boobs. These are adult women with their own thoughts and opinions. They’re doing it, not men. I think you can easily subtract men from this whole equation. Agreed. Trying to hold men responsible for that would be like trying to hold women responsible for the advent of penis elargement junk emails. Personally I don’t care much about the size of a person’s breasts in and of themselves. Although I admit that I do notice their size in relation to the other parts of the person’s… Read more »
I love natural breasts. Fake boobs are terrible. But my wife has always wanted breast augmentation surgery, and very well may get it someday. I’m against it because I think she looks perfect the way she is, but if she wants to do it then ultimately I’ll accept it and I’d never forbid her to do something just because I didn’t like it. But I don’t think men bear any responsibility for the increase of fake boobs. These are adult women with their own thoughts and opinions. They’re doing it, not men. I think you can easily subtract men from… Read more »
Thank you for this balanced article…I truly enjoyed reading it. 🙂 Not everyone was born into the “ideal” body, but it’s what you make of it, right? I’ve met the kind of girls that have implants who sort of wear them like a badge and it seems to be the ruling force in their lives, and then I’ve met women who you wouldn’t know have implants because they didn’t get them for anyone else but themselves. I think that’s the difference in the way I feel about it. One side of the story makes me a little sick while the… Read more »
How about http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/06/perverse-incentives/8489/
Men overwhelmingly prefer natural breasts. Men don’t bear any responsibility for the plastic surgery that women chose to have done because guess what? Women are adults, just like men.
I’m completely against augmentation, but whether fake or natural, both men and women need to learn how to accept women as they are. I’m not bothered by men who have preferences, but men who press natural breasts on women are just as bad as men who press women to get augmentations. I also notice that men who say they prefer natural breasts prefer it for selfish reasons: they’re bouncy, soft, blah, blah, blah. They don’t prefer them for any reasons that have to do with women’s comfort.
Amber, you just have a low opinion of men and an over inflated opinion of women. If they prefer natural, they are bad, if they for some reason prefer fake they are bad, if they prefer natural because they feel and look better, they are bad. And in your book whats acceptable is men basing their preferences on what evers more comfortable for women, but in reality, I think you would find men with no minds of their own and like or don’t like things based on whats best for you pretty creepy and unattractive, For someone who claims to… Read more »
If they prefer natural, they are bad, if they for some reason prefer fake they are bad, if they prefer natural because they feel and look better, they are bad.
I think that’s result of two forces at work.
1. People who have a preference but then start to impose that preference on other people like its a requirement.
2. People who perceieve someone’s preference as if it were a requirement.