For Harris O’Malley, being willing to admit that he was interested in sex – and understanding that yes, women liked it as much as he did – made his relationships more authentic, and sex more collaborative.
Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
I like sex.
I realize that this is the sort of declaration that ranks right up there in obviousness as “Hey, the sun rises in the east!” and “water’s a bit wet, i’nit?” but stick with me here, I have a point I’m getting to.
I’ve been reading Clarisse Thorne’s “Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser” lately and it’s been a thought-provoking read. Beyond being a fascinating and surprisingly even-handed look at PUA culture and techniques, it also has a lot of cross-over with sex positivity. Some of the attitudes expressed by members of the PUA community she interviews reminded of some of the ways I looked at the world not that long ago, especially with regards to sex and sexuality.
When I was younger and less experienced – back in the bad old days – I liked sex but didn’t really know much about it. Less of a case of not understanding the mechanics or only routine in my repertoire being “writing letters with my tongue” but about human sexuality. I had absorbed a lot of misinformation about sex and sexuality from the culture I grew up in, especially as a white, hetero, cisgendered male. As far as I knew, sex was something of a transaction: guys bargained, cajoled, argued, convinced, begged or otherwise persuaded women into performing some sex act – ideally some penis-in-vagina action – and women would give in. Sometimes reluctantly, sometimes with enthusiasm but rarely without some form of negotiation. The fact that men wanted sex was something of an inconvenience at best, something actually shameful at worst. Being called a pervert – if, say, you were caught watching Porky’s, Embrace of the Vampire or the Phoebe Cates scene from Fast Times at Ridgemont High – was among the worst things you could label a guy.
After losing my virginity, I was – I shit you not – shocked when my girlfriend was interested in having sex again… like, the very next day. Without my having to put on a production or anything! Oh, what brave new world that had such people in it!
Still, even after being introduced to a world where women actually -gasp- enjoyed sex, I still clung to the belief that men were the horny ones and women had to be persuaded – which is to say, turned on or seduced – into wanting sex in equal measure. This colored a lot of my interactions with women, especially with how I was going about trying to convince them to go out on a date (and then, ideally, come home) with me. I wasn’t seeing sex – or romance, for that matter – in terms of “here’s a fun thing we can both enjoy”, I was seeing it as “what do I have to do to get you to sleep with me.” It was an adversarial process – one encouraged by society at large – and one that simultaneously demonized and praised male sexuality while insisting that female sexuality was less important, if it existed at all.
I wasn’t seeing sex – or romance, for that matter – in terms of “here’s a fun thing we can both enjoy”, I was seeing it as “what do I have to do to get you to sleep with me.” It was an adversarial process…
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Dating was a ritualized kabuki dance; while we both knew that sex was a possibility, I had to take care to not express any overt interest in it lest I look like a pervert who Only Wanted One Thing. I had to display enough value in order to make it worth her time to give me the opportunity to try to persuade her into sleeping with me. It was exhausting and it meant that I wasn’t treating her as a person but as a vault whose combination I had to learn in order to get inside.
And from talking to my friends… I was decidedly not the only one who felt that way. We all felt the annoyance that we had to pretend that we didn’t want what we so obviously did and the frustration that women just didn’t know what it was like for guys. Men and women were just too different.
It took quite a bit of effort to break out of the antagonistic view of sex and realize that a) women were sexual beings too and b) it was ok to want sex. The problem wasn’t the interest, the problem was the way that we were all taught to go about getting it.
THE PARADOX OF MALE SEXUALITY
The way our culture defines male sexuality is problematic to say the least. We’re constantly beset with conflicting messages about just how a man is supposed to be, sexually. Male sexuality is equally something to be scoffed at, ashamed of and celebrated… as long as you don’t deviate from the accepted norm.
On the one hand, male sexuality is portrayed as one of constant horniness. Men are supposed to get rock-hard erections at the merest hint of stimulus (such as, say, a stiff breeze…) and ready to go at the drop of a bra – we don’t need no silly “foreplay” or anything so silly as “setting the mood”. One common joke: “How do excite your man? Show up.” The other joke-but-not-really is that men are so horny and oversexed that they’d fuck spongecake if it was warm enough.
For a man, according to the common message, sex is the alpha and omega of our lives. If you’re not interested in sex, you are not a man. We will do almost anything in the name of getting laid – travelling across the country on the hint that we might have sex (The Sure Thing, Euro Trip, Sex Drive), subject ourselves to any number of indignities (The Last American Virgin), lie about who we are (Wedding Crashers) or what we do (ditto) or make any number of promises we may or may not have intend to keep (Paradise By The Dashboard Light). Sex is a part of everything we do as men.
Men are expected to want to fuck as many women ((I mention women specifically because male sexuality is still predominately defined as heterosexual. Gay men are also frequently seen – and portrayed – as wildly promiscuous, but this is frequently held against them.)) as possible; restricting oneself to just a single woman is jokingly referred to being “tied down”. Any number of people will happily provide any number of reasons and explanations – ranging from evolutionary psychology to the effects of testosterone – as to why men should not be expected to be monogamous and should instead be free to spread their seed as far and wide as possible. Sleeping with as large a number of women as possible is something to be celebrated – certain celebrities (Wilt Chamberlain, Gene Simmons, Hugh Hefner, Warren Beatty) are known for their level of promiscuity as much as for their professional accomplishments. The higher the number… well, the more manly you are.
Of course, this glory only fits within specific standards. It doesn’t count if you’re sleeping with women who fall outside the conventional definition of beauty1. If your desires fall outside of the accepted stereotype – most commonly young and busty with a narrow waist and long tapered legs – well there’s something wrong with you. If you are attracted to, say, heavy women or older women… well, that’s fodder for comedy right there because real men aren’t into that.
And if you’re a virgin more than a few months past puberty… well shit son, something must be wrong with you, because a man is not a virgin! Men get laid.
…Male sexuality is commonly portrayed as awkward, buffoonish or barely restrained animal instinct. In film, television and comics, sex makes people stupid.
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At the same time, however, male sexuality is also seen as a joke or even something to be ashamed of. Ignoring more extreme ends of the spectrum such as Andrea Dworkin’s Intercourse, male sexuality is commonly portrayed as awkward, buffoonish or barely restrained animal instinct. In film, television and comics, sex makes people stupid. The womanizer characters are often also either the moron or the man-child. Men can’t hold a conversation with a woman without attempting to look down her shirt, can barely spit out two sentences to a woman who he finds attractive without making a Freudian reference to her breasts, vagina or having sex. The man who has lots of sex partners is shown to have something wrong with him, emotionally and needs a Good Woman to heal him and teach him the wonders of monogamy. Women were disturbed, even disgusted by any noticeable expression of sexual interest whether verbal or physical (inopportune erections, anyone) and yet the man simply can’t help himself.
Being told simultaneously that you were supposed to be a stud and that women found sex icky does notmake for a well-balanced view of sex growing up.
Not, mind you, that women have it any easier.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN “WOMEN LIKE SEX TOO”??
You wouldn’t think it, but the idea that women are sexual beings, with wants, lusts and needs just like men, can be a difficult concept to wrap one’s head around. We live in a society where we are taught that men and women are diametrically opposed by their very nature; men want sex, women want love. Men are logical, women are emotional, etc.
On it’s face you would think that this would be self-evident, but growing up I – and damn near everybody else – were implicitly taught that women were not sexual the way that men were. Men might crave sex but women… women, we are taught, tolerate it. Since the Victorian era, it has been axiomatic that “real” women were chaste and endured sex because it was her womanly duty. Hell, until the late 19th and early 20th centuries, women liking, even wanting sex was considered to be a symptom of hysteria. Even with the Free Love era of the 60s and the Sexual Revolution of the 70s, female sexuality was still defined by a man’s needs first and foremost.
These days, women are subject to the same paradoxical treatment of sexuality that men are. Women are supposed to enjoy sex, but almost as a performance for men. They’re taught to walk a thin line: “be sexy… but in this very specific way.” Fashion and trends in clothing encourage a very particular body type and to decorate it and display it in pre-approved manners. Express your sexuality, but only in these particular ways. Fit yourself into this very narrow mold and you will be rewarded by men But for all that our culture says women are supposed to be sexy, they’re not supposed to be sexual. To be sexual is to like sex a little too much. Liking it too much means you’re giving it away too easily and we all know the label afforded to women who give up the goods too early or to readily…
Even now, the woman who craves sex, has more than one partner at a time or is interested in non-procreative sex (anal sex, fetishes or kink) is frequently shown in pop culture to be in equal turns untrustworthy, damaged or a figure to be laughed at.
And of course, there’s still that persistant voice in western culture that insists that sex is dirty and shameful and should only be shared with someone you love in the bonds of holy matrimony.
Considering the tightrope that society demands they walk, it’s small wonder that many women have a hard time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Even in this day and age, it’s still incredibly common for women to not know what makes them orgasm until their 20s or even 30s.
This schizoid view of female sexuality – that women should like sex, but only in specific ways following particular models – contributes to the fucked-upedness of our sex-negative culture and the antagonistic way that we see sexual relations. It’s one thing to be able to acknowledge, intellectually, that yes, women were sexual beings just like men were, that women liked sex, even wanted sex the same way that men did. It’s another to be able to internalize it.
THE COMMODITY MARKET OF SEX
For me, 20+ years of conditioning was hard to shake off. I had bought into the commercial, antagonistic view of sexuality and it colored the way I approached women and sexual relationships.
The way that western culture approaches sex – even in this enlightened age, with vibrators for sale in your local Walgreens and where sex-tapes make people instant celebrities overnight – is to treat it as a commodity. Sex as goods. Women have it, men want it and the market sets the price. It’s a zero-sum game – the more a woman gives away, the less she’s worth, therefore she needs to hold sex in reserve in order to get the best price for it.
Women -so the cultural model goes – are expected to hold out to get as much as they can: financial security, romance, relationships, marriage and children. If they sell their goods – sex – too cheaply, too quickly or too often to too many people, the laws of supply and demand define her as being “devalued”; i.e. a slut.
Men, on the other hand, are expected to get as much as they possibly can for as low of an investment as possible. A man who pays too much for too little – someone who can’t “seal the deal” quickly or who don’t get sufficient levels of sex (either from one partner or many) in exchange for a relationship” – is seen as less of a man. A “pussy” even, because what could be more insulting for a man than to be compared to female genitalia?
Even the Nice Guys fall into the commodity frame of sex; they view sex (or, more euphemistically, a “relationship”) as something that is rightfully theirs as long as they collect enough Nice Guy tokens. Once they have enough, they can redeem their tokens in exchange for the sex that they’ve been working towards.
The commodification of sexuality is an inherently antagonistic system that treats men and women as fundamentally different and sets them in opposition – the “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus” model if you will. The idea that sex is a matter of winning and losing even permeates our language. When men have sex they “get some”, or “get lucky” or “seal the deal.” Women “give it up” or “give it away” or “surrender to him”. We talk about the “thrill of the chase”. Pickup artists refer to meeting and seducing as “The Game” – with it’s inherent implication that there is a winner and a loser and the loser is the one who gives in.
In addition, it by it’s very nature stipulates that sex is only valued due to it’s scarcity – which in turn means that a woman is only worth as much as the sex she doesn’t have. A woman in this model who “gives it up” too easily or too freely or too often is seen as worth less. Men are taught that a woman who is easily seduced is not a “high-value asset”; after all, if she gave it up her precious commodity so easily once, how many othertimes has she handed it out? At the same time, there is an expiration date; the goods are worth more the newer it is. Past a certain point… well, it’s hardly worth anything, now is it?
The commodity market model also doesn’t allow for anything other than a value-for-value exchange. It by it’s nature dismisses anything that falls outside of this frame. A woman who enjoys sex for it’s own sake are treated as shameful sluts and are worth less than “pristine” virgins. A man who might be monogamous by nature or might want greater levels of intimacy before sex is seen as a freak.
SEX AS COLLABORATION
When I was starting to make my transformation, I wasn’t consciously thinking about the transaction frame that defined sex for me at the time; I was thinking about concepts that the PUA community would dub “Demonstrations of Higher Value” – evidence that would convince women that I was “worthy” of being given sex… because it wasn’t like there were that many women who just liked sex for it’s own sake, right?
Changing the ways that I thought about sex took a lot of work. The first step – accepting that women liked sex too – was the hardest; I still had literal decades of cultural indoctrination to overcome. Part of what helped was a female friend of mine handing me a copy of My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday, which compiled various women’s fantasies as an overview of female sexuality. From there it was a matter of education and a willingness to question a lot of what I thought I knew. I did a lot of reading about human sexuality and a lotof discussions with my partners… not just about what I did that convinced them to go to bed with me, but about how they felt about sex and how and when their attitudes developed or changed.
And it helped. A lot.
There’s an excellent essay by Thomas MacAullay Millar called “Toward a Performance Model of Sex” that sums up the idea of a collaborative model of sex brilliantly, using the metaphor of musical performance:
The commodity model assumes that when a woman has sex, she loses something of value. If she engages in too much sex, she will be left with nothing of value. It further assumes that sex earlier in her history is more valuable than sex later…. But a musician’s first halting notes at age thirteen in the basement are not something of particular value. Only an obsessive completist would want a recording of a young musician’s practice before she knew what she was doing… She gets better by learning, by playing a lot, by playing with different people that are better than she is. She reaches the height of her powers in the prime of her life, as an experienced musician, confident in her style and conversant in her material. Her experience and proven talent are precisely why she is valued.
Because it centers on collaboration, a performance model better fits the conventional feminist wisdom that consent is not the absence of “no,” but affirmative participation. Who picks up a guitar and jams with a bassist who just stands there? Who dances with a partner who is just standing and staring? In the absence of affirmative participation, there is no collaboration.
Like the commodity model the performance model implies a negotiation, but not an unequal or adversarial one… Musicians have to choose, explicitly or implicitly, what they are going to play: genre, song, key and interpretation. The palette available to them is their entire skill set… Two musicians steeped in delta blues will produce very different music from one musician with a love for soul and funk and another with roots in hip-hop or 80s hardcore. This process involves communication of likes and dislikes and preferences, not a series of proposals that meet with acceptance or rejection.
Not feeling that every sexual encounter was a negotiation made things more comfortable. I was able to relax and be my best self instead of putting on what we both inherently knew was a performance. I stopped looking at sex as a competition – what do I have to do to get you to sleep with me – and more of a collaboration.
Being willing to admit that I was interested in sex – and understanding that yes, women liked it as much as I did – made things go smoother. It was more honest – this is who I am, this is what I’m interested in, this is what I have to offer – than trying to pretend otherwise. It made it easier to make the negotiation of sex that communication of likes and dislikes that Millar talks about rather than a process of “this is what I am willing to offer, how much will this get me?” It meant that there were fewer miscommunications; I wasn’t indicating that maybe, maybe I’d be interested in a relationship when I really wasn’t.
Accepting that you’re allowed to have the desires you do (or don’t) have and being willing to be honest about them allows you to be more authentically yourself… and in doing so, relate to the people you want in a more honest, open and collaborative way.
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Feature photo—Man head silhouette by Shutterstock
I liked the vibe of the article but think that one important point was left out…women love orgasms. If the sex is casual, as the article implies, there will be a disappointed women if she doesn’t get off. There should be a sidebar which states that a women wants either romance or orgasm..both if possible. An encounter with neither sucks! Just acknowledging that women like sex isn’t helping anyone and isn’t new.
An awful lot of me are *only* concerned about getting themselves off, have zero care of what a woman wants or needs in bed. I don’t need money or gorgeous. I want a nice guy who wants both of us to have a great time in bed. Frankly with too much porn, the guys who aren’t completely self absorbed lovers are harder to find all the time! And yeah, plenty of women have had more partners than they will ever admit. If you want to be married to a woman who loves sex then why do you discount the “slut”… Read more »
As a woman, the fact that I love sex makes me seen as a ‘slut’ or ‘nympho’. Even worse I am in my 40s and overweight. So I will be seen as a frustrated spinster. It is FAR easier for men to express an interest in sex, want to pick up women and be successful in that regard. It will never be easy for the likes of me
The author eventually figured out that big change from the Victorian era, when there were two kinds of women——lustful versus wifely. Men and women now realize those two kinds of women are the same woman at different times and with different men. For a period of time, a woman can and will fall in lust, as intensely, and insatiably as any man, but typically that woman will cool off, in her lust for that particular guy, after a few years or a few children. Married men often have a harder time seducing their wives, than single men have finding a… Read more »
.. you’ve just hit d nail by its head. . you’re perfectly right. .
Intricate or not it boils down to a debatable thesis. Almost pointless to go there with no substantial explanations. Encouragement that isn’t foggy is hard to come by. Great article.
I really wish I had read this when it came out. As a mid-30s man with little sexual experience, I’m beginning to see how harmful these beliefs have been to me, especially the second one about believing that women will loathe me as a “pervert” if I accidentally reveal that I like sex, or erotica, or fantasizing. Add to that the fact that I’m not very attractive in a classical sense and that I grew up with a lot of domestic violence and it’s no wonder I wanted, even needed, to “protect” women from my sexuality the same way I… Read more »
@autochron From your comment I get the idea that your mind is in the way. Words like ‘pervert’ and ‘not very attractive’ are negative ideas about yourself and it’s those beliefs that make us feel ashamed for who we are. Shame moves us away from our bodies and blocks our (sexual) energy. At the same time it puts us in our minds and may stir up fantasies. Thus the blockage of this powerful energy could turn what is the most creative force in the universe into a massively destructive one. From my experience my advice to you would be (1)… Read more »
@Michael Russell Good advice, and well worth taking. I guess I’m hung up by something slightly different. I consider myself a male feminist, and proud of it — it’s provided a great deal of good for both men and women — but I still feel that some aspects of feminist culture so far have been somewhat misguided. In particular, the tendency for male sexuality to be demonized is something that resonates deeply in my psyche, and something that I’m only now coming to grips with in a way. My first reaction when I read your article was “Well, yeah, I… Read more »
I do agree that the overall tone of the article tended towards negative and perhaps a tad patronizing (particularly to us girls reading it, rolling our eyes and saying ‘duh’). But there are definitely some home truths here about sex politics in modern society. I hate to admit it but there have been many times where I wished I was a guy purely to be judged or labelled as a ‘player’ not a ‘slut’ based my answer to the dreaded question for (a lot) of women (definitely not for men) ‘what’s your number?’…(of sexual partners)
I hate to admit it but there have been many times where I wished I was a guy purely to be judged or labelled as a ‘player’ not a ‘slut’ based my answer to the dreaded question for (a lot) of women (definitely not for men) ‘what’s your number?’…(of sexual partners). What makes you so sure you wouldn’t be considered a “dog”, “womanizer”, “creep”, or “perv” instead? (I don’t mean this directly at you Stacey but when it comes to gender I have noticed something. When women go into “if I were a guy” mode they tend to go straight… Read more »
You absolutely have a point Danny, but while a guy who gets around can have many labels like you mentioned “dog”, “womanizer”, “creep”, or “perv” or indeed ‘player’-this in particular proven to be used often as a positive description (perhaps more between guys but still)….a women generally gets one label which in lets face it- in all contexts is used as a negative. I’ve certainly never heard a woman be called a ‘slut’ in a positive context, not even when women use it on themselves-so ingrained is this notion our society that a sexually liberated women who’s had a significant… Read more »
just to have one positive label out there like men do-I don’t know about anyone else but it bothers me that on this superficial but significant level of labels (while we’re going there) women go from ‘sluts’ to ‘spinsters/old maids’ while men go from ‘players’ to ‘bachelors/playboys’. I dunno it’s just…that grass looks pretty damn green. It only looks green to you because you are only looking at one part of the boy yard. Sure if you somehow manage to be on that one exact portion of the yard under the right circumstances it’s probably pretty green. (Hell by that… Read more »
These other terms don’t carry the same weight and history of oppression. Of course you know that, but you gotta play the ignorant male so you can feel like a victim too, we know this.
Women are humiliated, abused and even killed for being “sluts”. Sluts deserve to be raped, so many men believe this… you don’t have to ask for permission, we are sluts! If we agree to have sex with you, that means you can demean and force me to do things because sluts deserve no respect.
Stacy made a mistake that’s pretty common for women when talking about life as a guy. She imagined what it would like to be a guy and immediately went to the best case scenario that the vast majority of men don’t even experience but people who aren’t men have decided is the norm for being a guy. And since I pointed it out you have done what a lot of women do when this flaw is shown. You go beyond the scope of the original comment in order to maintain official victimhood status. Stacy said nothing about abuse, rape, or… Read more »
http://videos.huffingtonpost.com/entertainment/robin-thicke-sings-i-need-love-517486287
I’ve been finding Good Men Project slightly confused lately, but this is the best article I’ve read on this site. Really useful. Thanks for writing it.
I’m a young woman and I LOVE sex.
Do you love sex with guys who are also out there just looking for sex? Or does he have to at a minimum be like “i’m just looking for somebody nice to hang around and date?”
iam a young woman and i can have sex with a man just because i like him without thinking about anything else just for the pleausure of sex woman love sex too or at leats womans who has been really satisficed during a sexual encounter.
There is an opposite to the attitude expressed in this article that can also get in the way of collaborative sex. That is when a man’s sexual identity is very much put into his ability to please women, so much so that he feels very dejected when he can’t bring her to orgasm. This is more common in my experience than a man doesn’t believe in or doesn’t see the importance of a woman’s pleasure. This is why some women find it necessary to fake orgasms. Honest communication is the solution to this puzzle, too, though. The man in this… Read more »
Whether a person has an orgasm or not ultimately depends on himself or herself more than it does on the partner. If one or both people just think in terms of one giving an orgasm to the other, then that’s a perfect set-up for disappointment right there. It’s just another variant of the crazy idea that someone else is responsible for how you feel. Your partner can’t really give you an orgasm. He or she can only help you reach one.
No, the idea of sharing my body is to have my partner learn what turns me on and then he knows it like I do to bring me to orgasm without continued instruction. I have been in a two year relationship where my partner never learned to bring me to orgasm without my finger action. It frustrated me to no end thinking what’s the point of sharing when I can do the very same thing on my own and in less time. The lust for him faded because outside of being a great huger and kisser, he was lousy in… Read more »
I live in kenya. i kindly wanted to know whether i can publish some of your articles in my magazine as i give you credit. Thanks Kim
he part about women wanting and liking sex without a giant song and dance spoke to me. As for men, it just said, do what you want–regardless of what society tells you. If you want to rack up partners,
Great article ~ Thanks so much!
what a seriously excellent article!! So good to see this stuff being spoken up.
This is a horrible and sex negative article. Here is in brief form what a sex positive article with a title like “it’s okay to want sex” should look like. “It’s Okay to Want Sex.” – If you are like many men you have a desire for sex, and not necessarily in a relationship but for it’s own sake. Yet society has given you a lot of shaming messages about how you shouldn’t be one of those uncaring douchebags who objectifies women. While having sex for the sake of sex is growing more and more acceptable, there is still a… Read more »
I’m curious, where does wanting to have a lot of sex with one person fall, sex positive or sex negative?
There’s nothing wrong with wanting sex for the sake of sex, I don’t think he was trying to say that. Many people do. I had phases in my life where I did. You can even want sex within a relationship just for the sake of sex, not for some grand show of intimacy. The important part is to be straightfoward about it and not try and trick or be cruel to people about it. Wanting sex does not equal objectification, either. Objectification usually involves not seeing a woman a as a human being or making her uncomfortable. Like jrd says,… Read more »
“Objectification usually involves not seeing a woman a as a human being or making her uncomfortable. ” Not making her feel uncomfortable is way too broad and it’s a good example of how confusing the messages men have been getting from women have been. Men can be made to feel uncomfortable by women but nobody calls it objectification or anything else. Women can treat men pretty much anyway they like so long as the man is willing to put up with it, and nobody will judge her for it. We can’t have equality when we only care about the feelings… Read more »
I guess it would fall in a sex positive category though actually it would be more “sex neutral”. Being “sex positive” involves acceptance of multiple forms of socio-sexual styles. Somebody who says that only polyamory is acceptable would in a way be sex negative because they are not being accepting of monogamous people, for example. As for why I think this article is sex negative- I think that is doesn’t honestly deal with the subject matter its title would it imply it should, instead of taking the opportunity to tell it’s readers about how its okay to want sex it… Read more »
I honestly don’t see where this article shames men. The part about women wanting and liking sex without a giant song and dance spoke to me. As for men, it just said, do what you want–regardless of what society tells you. If you want to rack up partners, do it because you desire to, not because society tells you to. If you want to wait or deny a woman sex or get turned on by something outside of conventional beauty standards, it doesn’t make you any less of a man. As long as you’re upfront about it all and focus… Read more »
He (the author of the article) was just lucky enough, on his first try, to find a woman who was just as interested in sex as he was, and also not afraid or reluctant to show it.
This is more luck or coincidence than anything else, if you ask me, and is not something that should be used to berate or denounce other people in a condescending way.
“Where are you coming from with this question?”
The times I have seen the phrase sex positive used, I have detected a if-you-don’t-believe-that-having-sex-with-as-many-partners-as-possible-is-healthy-and-should-be-encouraged-and-promoted-then-you’re-a-prude” attitude. I assume that means that those who think that sex is special and who desire to focus sexually on one person in an exclusive/monogamous relationship are the opposite of sex positive.
No, that is a form of sex positivity only embraced by those who do not understand it. If you look at the comments on this thread you will find plenty of people who do agree with the kind of “puritanism” of some supposed sex positive advocates
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/sex-positives-the-new-puritans/
I’m not a fan of any kind of puritanism because its based on an us-vs. them mentality but I think this person does not understand sex positivity.
I agree that you shouldn’t judge other people for their monogamous lifestyles. I think that those who do don’t fully understand what sex positivity is. There was an article on the Good Men Project about this and you’ll notice that people commenting think that those who look at sex positivity that way are in the wrong. https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/sex-positives-the-new-puritans/
What the hail are you talking about, Quadruple A? There’s nothing sex-negative about this article. In fact, it’s merely a biographic narrative (with a little reflection thrown in) about overcoming the internalised sex-negativity that many man have as a result of the messages we receive about our own, and women’s, desires. How you can’t see that this is the opposite of sex-negative is kind of mysterious…unless you have a very different understanding of what that term means.
I think that saying its “okay to want sex” means you can approach a woman that you don’t know or barely know with sex as significant or only part of your intention. I’m still struggling with what it means to be sex positive but that is one plausible definition for me. This article suggests that its only okay to want sex within relationships with women. He specifically speaks and addresses only the subject of already existing relationships with women. Maybe he doesn’t think that is a good thing to approach a woman with sex in mind and that is okay… Read more »
@Past is future : ” So, when I see posters getting all up in arms that touching oneself while with a partner… who gives shit. It’s their loss.” I’m not a timid female, unlike so many females who say what you males want them to say. I speak the truth from which I know it.I have tried to talk in a decent tone, but seems some males here, don’t know how to do that. What an ugly thing to say just because every woman doesn’t want to masturbate herself during sex. Stop trying to make females feel like they are… Read more »
Jean, I don’t know how you read “Who gives a shit?” as an attempt to make rules for other couples. It was basically an expression of indifference. Go have sex however you’d like to.
Harris, I really enjoyed your article. Both your honesty and insight were really great. You seemed to be able to pinpoint the messages women get about sex just as well as the messages men get. Such as the conformity of female sexuality being more of a show and performance for his pleasure, not necessarily hers.
Here is to more authentic sex where neither men or women have to feel like they need to put on a show to interact with one another.
I think we have to consider that despite our modern cult of sincerity (with regard to sex), which is really a throwback to puritanism, that performance is an important part of sex. Performance makes sex more fun and you can’t have a performance without an audience. The point is that if you enjoy performing then it isn’t a problem and you don’t have to worry about whether the fact that you are doing it for somebody else’s pleasure undermines a claim to your own pleasure.
Gosh, I don’t think our culture is having much of a modern bout of sexual sincerity. I wish we were! I also don’t see how sexual sincerity is a throwback to puritanism. If anything, it allows for more enjoyment where both people can be open to being more vulnerable and loose in their sexuality and exploring what they may truly wan to explore rather then conforming to the perfomance they are told they most be or do to be “sexy” to one another.
I think it means being open minded about experience without the need to put labels and distinctions that distinguish authentic sexual expression from inauthentic sexual expression. The cult of sincere non-performative sex is mostly an internet phenomena. It’s puritan because it focuses on making sex pure from outside inauthentic influences but basically it substitutes the good/bad dichotomy of old fashioned puritanism with a new dichotomy of real/fake forms of enjoyment. I’m in a annoyed mood today and I think I’m just picking an obscure line of argument for the sake of it but I still don’t like the judgmental tone… Read more »
Great point.
i think dolly said it best 40 yrs ago (to some controversy at the time)…a woman needs a helping hand, so touch your woman! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNMypfCiFnw i would also challenge the sex vs. love dichotomy, or the idea that satisfying a high libido requires lots of partners. since (at least for me) good sex is so much about communication and collaboration, i find it hard to really do right with someone i’ve just met. much more satisfying with someone who’s taken the time to learn about you and what you want and is interested in sustaining that relationship. as a woman… Read more »
I have struggled with my love and desire for sex. Its been an ongoing battle for the last few years. I have had over 30 sexual partners and I’ve felt disgust at this number. The number is higher than I’d like it to be. Then to flip the coin, I also feel that I have quite a high sex drive, why is it such a big deal? do I have to be in a long term relationship to satisfy my sexual needs? even if I’m not that happy with it, just because I’m a woman? whats wrong with a casual… Read more »
Good luck to you. Seriously.
There is nothing wrong with a woman having a high libido. I wish there were millions more. I am a high libido man and have several FWBs.
I eschew marriage and long term relationships. They have been detrimental to my enjoying a strong and healthy sex life. So, I have zero interest in either.
Life is Good!
“I asked a few female friends what they thought their number was recently. My oldest friend said she was a 10. In my opinion she is a 6. My newest friend said she doesn’t like to define because its different for everyone. What she thinks is a 10, I think is a 7.” What you are going to probably discover is most women view other women as a 5-6. They view themselves as a 10. While there is nothing wrong with a healthy self image, objectively speaking most women are NOT a 10. Just saying. In contrast, most men view… Read more »
I don’t know, maybe this is a Millenial generation thing? I have always felt crappy about my looks (as a teenager, I though that I was hideous) and most women I know constantly beat themselves up about not being thin enough or hot enough. But then I’m Gen X and we are known for our angst and depression. 🙂 I’m definitely not a 10 and never have been. I might have been a 6-7 when I was 22. Now that I’m middled aged, 30 pounds overweight, and have some wrinkles, yikes, I’m probably like a 3!
Way too harsh on yourself. The point I am trying to make is women are far more discriminating than we men. I know you constantly argue we men go for the hottest women….I really is not so. Personally my ideal woman is: intelligent, great personality, kind, giving, compassionate, and high libido. However, unlike most women, I am willing to settle for just: great personality, kind, and high libido. Women want everything! Anything less is settling. Usually, women such as yourself have at some point dated or refused to date a great, loving, and caring man. Most of you tossed the… Read more »
IDK, as I’ve said in other comments, I’m average looking and it’s not like I’ve had tons of opportunities to reject guys because I have never had many guys pursuing me. In my younger years, I would date almost any guy who asked me out, at least once. I always thought, what the hell, I’ll see how it goes. Cuz I didn’t get many dates. 🙂 There are guys I dated a couple times, and they wanted to take it further, but I just wasn’t attracted to them. Usually that was based on personality. I’ve never been picky about looks… Read more »
If you are honest and up front with most guys about 30 partners you will lose lots of potential long term mates.
Whats the big deal? why is it such a big deal! its in the past…..
Please explain to me. I can see that certain people may find it alarming, but men in general, why is it so bad?
Natty:
I think what it comes down to is men want to be special, and they don’t want to be compared to other men. I’m guessing they may feel insecure being with a woman who is more experienced than they are.
Buuut at the same time they think its cool for them to sample many women. The kicker is I’m sure most men would have sex with way more than 30 women if it was so easy.
While I cannot speak for all men, I will speak for myself on this one. I am a man who has exercised restraint in his life. I just turned 50 and have been with fewer than 10 women. I married a woman who had enjoyed more sexual partners and sex than me. It was a real problem for the marriage. She had done all the stuff I wanted to do. She had fucked her boyfriends on cruises…So, when we did our cruise there was hardly any sex… Now I have three FWBs and am literally fucking my ass off. Why?… Read more »
Jules:
Have you ever asked her why?
Maybe she wants a relationship thats less based on the physical.
Asked whom? Why? Why what?
Asked your wife why she wouldnt do those things with you?
My ex wife would barely have sex let alone “those things.” All I ever wanted was a healthy sex life of 2-3 times a week. I was not even asking for any blow jobs. She only wanted sex once a month always immediately after her cycle. It was like clockwork. And she only wanted one position, spooning. Never asked me what I wanted. Never gave a flying fig about what I desired. Was that asking for too much? She stated her drive had diminished after the birth of our son. But, she would not do anything for it. She would… Read more »
That sounds like a horrible situation in your marriage and I’m sorry you had to experience that. But I doubt it had to do with her having sex with a lot of guys in the past. Except insofar as her past promiscuity was the result of an underlying psychological issue and then she simply flipped to the other extreme as a result of the same hangups. For example, maybe she had sex with a lot of guys when she was younger because she was deeply insecure and seeking validation, then she regretted it later but was still deeply insecure about… Read more »
Jules–I have to ask. Did you ever initiate sex or did you rely on your wife to all the time? Did you make her feel like the most beautiful woman in the world even when she was dealing with body image issues of having children and aging? Did you do anything to try and make sex more interesting (many women like variety too, and sex with just one person can get boring and stale if you don’t put at least some effort into it)? Did you reassure her that she was desirable even when things got busy and crazy? These… Read more »
I was always the person who initiated sex. I loved my ex wife and I did tell her that many times. I also would show her the appreciation I thought she deserved as my wife and mother of our child. He body did change after child birth. When I met her, she was a size 2. After having the child, she went to a size 10. Fine with me. A woman can be a 4 or 14. I am not that picky. As for making sex more interesting, it is kind of hard to do when it was happening only… Read more »
From your comment about women needing to take responsibility for their weight and appearance, it sounds like it WAS an issue for you. Which is a legitimate issue (I’m not disagreeing with you) but I think a lot if women become ashamed of our bodies as we age and that really puts a damper on sexual feelings. For example, one of the things that stops me from having casual sex (not that I have a ton of opportunities but just saying) is the knowledge that I have the body of a middle aged woman. I need to lose 20 pounds,… Read more »
No, her weight was never an issue. The only reason I made that comment was to say that if you want to remain fit and at a healthy body weight, people must take ownership of the lack of such. Whether a woman is a size 4 or 14 does not matter to me. Be if a woman is going to complain because she has gained 20 lbs, then she need to do something about it (i.e., take responsibility and change diet and exercise). I know a lot of women must feel sexy to be sexy. I have a friend who… Read more »
I think you’re making a big mistake feeling bad about your past and considering hiding it. Will it turn off some guys? Probably. Will it turn on others? Probably, as well. Which kind of guy would you like to be with? If you’re looking for long term and marriage, pick someone who appreciates you for all of you.
I’m a high-libido person and my spouse is not. If we’d figured this out earlier, I think it would have saved us a lot of trouble.
“I’m a high-libido person and my spouse is not. If we’d figured this out earlier, I think it would have saved us a lot of trouble.”
Why did you NOT discover this earlier? Just asking. If two people are dating and having sex, it only seems logical they would know something about each other’s sexuality. No?
When we were dating, we were having lots of fun sex. Her sex drive’s tanked since getting married and having kids.
Have either one of you considered maybe dating a girl who wasn’t so fast to warm up sexually?
?
I don’t know what you’re really asking. Date a sexually “cold” woman?
Whether she warms up slowly or not is besides the point if she is not interested in sex with you.
Not one whos cold, but one who doesn’t jump in the sack so fast.
Every woman I ever dated NEVER was fast to jump in the sack. Today, I am not interested in dating at all. I enjoy two FWBs situations. Honestly, I want to create a mini harem. I have given up on women and the relationship thingy. It is just pointless in my view. Just being honest. Women do find me likable. I do not have any problems attracting women. I am confident, though laid back. I am very charming but not a player. However, I am very honest with them about what I want. Most are looking for a relationship. I… Read more »
The other joke-but-not-really is that men are so horny and oversexed that they’d fuck spongecake if it was warm enough.” I think whats goin on here is that men have lower standards for looks than women do. I’ve seen guys go gaga over women I thought were mildly attractive or sometimes plain unattractive. They would think these girls were GORGEOUS and HOT. I’m just sitting there like eww that??? So that’s why sayings like that exist. If you put an OK looking girl in red lipstick, high heels, and skirt guys seem to go nuts. Plus, there are guys who… Read more »
But at the same time Alice men are supposedly so picky about women that we have a hand in the way a girl/woman can be constantly bombarded with messages about how she has to be “thin enough”, “curvy enough”, “light enough” (as in skin tone), etc… in order to be considered attractive enough to get a guy’s attention?
So it’s this weird paradox where as guys we will have sex with anyone with a female body and contribute to body shaming/policing girls/women with various -isms.
It’s interesting when you compare porn (presumably targeted at men) and fashion magazines (presumably targeted at women). There’s a hell of a lot more variation (even without getting into the BBW segment) in female body types in the former than the latter.
There’s probably less variation in the porn actor body types than there is in the actress body types, though (Ron Jeremy being the exception that proves the “should have six-pack” rule…).
It’s interesting when you compare porn (presumably targeted at men) and fashion magazines (presumably targeted at women). There’s a hell of a lot more variation (even without getting into the BBW segment) in female body types in the former than the latter. True. There’s probably less variation in the porn actor body types than there is in the actress body types, though (Ron Jeremy being the exception that proves the “should have six-pack” rule…). Jeremy became a big name in the porn industry because he fit one expectation that a lot of porn actors are held to so well that… Read more »
Danny:
I think men really want the superhot girl, but will take less than that. Maybe women want to be favored, and not just another girl? Men really do act differently towards women that have whatever favored trait(s).
With most male porn stars, I think a lot of the time unattractive men are purposefully chosen. Male hetero viewer sees super unattractive guy bang super hot girl. Guy thinks, “If she let that bang her, then she’ll let me bang her,too.” I think something similar happens in female oriented media.
Kinda doubt it, at least on the male side. I’ve seen plenty of porn and that thought’s never crossed my mind.
some guy:
Its not necessarily conscious…
Danny:
ideal type of women that one has to be with is breaking down (or more like fewer guys are buying into it).”
For the record I don’t think a lot of men are all that choosy about who they sleep with, as far as an ideal type of woman.
Your theory’s not necessarily true, either. I prefer porn in which all the people are attractive.
Maybe *you* do, but there’s a reason a lot of male porn stars look like the south end of a northbound donkey.
This is what porno psychologists are doing in an attempt to sell porn to women…I have no reason to believe it hasn’t been going on in porn oriented towards men.
Correct. Men are not nearly so.
Only the squeamish metro-sexual type men have all these nonsensical requirements such as size 2, bare, …..
It is because for most men the average/typical women is good enough for sex.
I take it you mean “conventionally attractive” when you say “superhot”. In some cases you would be correct. But what I think is happening now is the programming that has guys believing that there is some ideal type of women that one has to be with is breaking down (or more like fewer guys are buying into it). With most male porn stars, I think a lot of the time unattractive men are purposefully chosen. Male hetero viewer sees super unattractive guy bang super hot girl. Guy thinks, “If she let that bang her, then she’ll let me bang her,too.”… Read more »
So, fewer guys buying into conventional standards of beauty with regard to women is a good thing? But everyone here seems pretty on board with the idea that men/women in porn are unattractive? I don’t know what you’re watching, but I see people who are, for the most part, in better than average shape, with average or better looks.
Individual preference, of course, dictates what you’ll find attractive, but is that what people are gettng at here?
“Plus, there are guys who admit they believe that p**** has no face.”
It doesn’t. Some of the prettiest, wet, and fresh ones have been on unattractive women. Just saying.
“The other joke-but-not-really is that men are so horny and oversexed that they’d fuck spongecake if it was warm enough.” So negative about sex and sexual diversity. Don’t judge sex with a cake until you’ve had sex with a cake. Just call it a sex toy and pretend that the man is a woman instead and voila, it’s much more socially acceptable. Of course, a real man would only get involved with a cake he baked himself. Otherwise, you are having sex with every other person who made that cake and are just a cheap slut. [Moderators, please don’t make… Read more »
Can we get some sex positive articles by straightforward people that aren’t connected to the PUA movement? I really hope it is not as if the multi-million dollar PUA industry has a financial stranglehold on all articles that are written about sex on the internet because that would be a very sad world. Yet even many of the people who comment on these articles seem to be astroturfers pretending to be regular people but what they are doing is creating confusion.
http://www.alternet.org/media/150049/corporate-funded_online_%27astroturfing%27_is_more_advanced_and_more_automated_than_you_might_think
I think many people, if not most people, have sex for a mixture of reasons. Both men and women have the same reasons for having sex, but the specific mixture seems very different in most cases. Men want sex 80% because of A, 15% because of B, and 5% because of C, while women want 25% A and 50% B and 25% C. Maybe it all adds up to “wanting sex just as much,” but it sure looks different from the male perspective. I still find it hard to believe that women ON AVERAGE have just as strong a libido… Read more »
Were you giving them good sex?
How would you define dood sex?
Oops. How would you define “good” sex?
Usually it is orgasmic sex. Also, it is sex where the women actually is satisfied afterwards. It is sex that is genuinely pleasing to her. The problem is most men are not good at sex. Women, instead of voicing their displeasure, just go on to the next man. The adult, responsible, and proper thing to do is for her to communicate her dissatisfaction. However, women say this usually does not work as men take it personally. In essence, it bruises the male ego. So, it is much easier for her to find another guy you can provide her with good… Read more »
“Usually it is orgasmic sex. Also, it is sex where the women actually is satisfied afterwards. It is sex that is genuinely pleasing to her.” Interesting. Is the orgasm itself the matter or the quality of sex necessary for orgasm? Men often orgasm but it isn’t necessarily good.
“The problem is most men are not good at sex.” – Or women aren’t good at enjoying it. It depends on how you look at it.
“Therefore, I stand by my original thesis: women desire good sex while men are happy with just sex.” – What premisses lead to this conclusion?
“Men often orgasm but it isn’t necessarily good.” Indeed, the most satisfying sex I can remember was when my partner had an intense (physically and emotionally) orgasm, whether I had an orgasm was of very little importance. Well I am a man, but are women that much different? ““The problem is most men are not good at sex.” – Or women aren’t good at enjoying it. It depends on how you look at it.” One could test which one is true by looking at homosexual pairings, unless being homosexual would have significant and different effects o the sexual performance on… Read more »
What a crock. What bunch of having the cake and wanting to eat it too. My partner’s happy to have “just sex.” Infrequent, timid, passive, boring sex. It’s so shitty I hardly want to bother anymore. But, I’m just a man. What have I got to complain about as long as I have a hole to cum in once or twice a week?
I hope it’s clear, I think of women as being capable of so much more than that. It kills me when “just sex” is all that’s offered. I’ve had plenty of unsatisfying sex that involves both of us orgasming.
Have you tried talking to her about it? Maybe the two of you aren’t sexually compatible.
Quite a bit. No luck so far.
At some point, women need to take responsibility for their own orgasms. Most women I know refuse to even try masturbating during sex, under the philosphy that I should be doing everything for them. But the thing is, I only have two hands, at least one of which is used to hold onto them for leverage. And I don’t have a clit. I know from every hand-job I’ve ever received that members of the other gender aren’t terribly good with manual stimulation. When every partner a woman’s had is a bad one, that’s probably a good indication that she’s the… Read more »
I think that’s completely true, about taking responsibility for your own orgasms. For both men and women.
Soullite:
If I have to masturbate during sex, I can just skip the sex…
Wow! I think you confirm what leading sex experts are saying: too many women do not understand their own bodies and sexuality.
Who said anything about me not knowing my body or any other woman not knowing her body?
Some women do have to masturbate during intercourse to get themselves off. In case you did not know, and apparently you do not, only a third of women can experience orgasm through intercourse alone.
Perhaps you are in that third of women who do not need help reaching orgasm during intercourse. But, as a woman, you should know this. Your reply above seems to indicate you do not.
Jules:
Actually, I’m well aware of that fact. Once again, if I need to masturbate to get off i can just pass on the sex. I’m trying to say that if I have to masturbate to get off during sex there’s less incentive for me to have sex. I’m also trying to say this is probably a reason why women in general are less into the sex thing.
Women were not designed to masturbate and maneuver their genitals during intercourse. We must admit that is very easiy for men to get their orgasms, but it is not easy for women. Whether you realize or not, IT IS your job as the male lover to satisfy his partner. That is one of the biggest reasons women do not want to have sex and avoid it and make all kinds of excuses. It is just not worth the effort, when we know the man will not satisfy us. Oh yes, some women will tell you they want it all the… Read more »
i almost ALWAYS masturbate during sex. Even if he’s made me cum as well. The guy usually likes it.
When I am pleasing my partner and doing what I know he enjoys, is it wrong for me to expect for him to stimulate me in return. Someone, please let me know if this is right or wrong.
No it’s not. If I’m doing something that pleases my partner I would hope that they would do the same for me.
Jean….Might I ask roughly how old are you? A lot of women stimulated themselves during intercourse. I even encourage them to use their toys! I want her to be fully satisfied. Women need to speak up in bed. Only when you communicate to your man what gets you off will he know 100%. Otherwise, he is going to THINK all is well. When I was young and inexperienced, I thought ALL women loved to have their pussy liked, sucked,….So, I become an expert. Well, I stared dating a young woman who one afternoon I must have spent over an hour… Read more »
@Julia Byrd, you said…… “Wow! I think you confirm what leading sex experts are saying: too many women do not understand their own bodies and sexuality”
I’d like to meet those leading experts.Who are they? Just because a woman does not completely know her body sexually, doesn’t justify requiring having her to masturbate herself during sex. How ludicrous! She might do well, to just go it alone. What would be the purpose of her man? Does anyone besides me, see what awesome hurdles we put in place for women to jump over?
@Jean…It is NOT a requirement for God’s sake!
All I am saying is some women, especially young women, do stimulate themselves during intercourse. Recently, I was with a 28 yr old woman who loved to use her vibrator on her clitoris during intercourse. She had loud ear piercing orgasms. It was not my suggestion. It was her desire.
She even stated that I was one of the few men who she felt comfortable asking if such was OK. Apparently other guys were not receptive.
I think the problem is that a man knows what he likes in bed and may assume all other men do too. Or he for whatever reason wants to justify that his way is the “right” way. In a sense, a woman who’s been with a number of men, might have a better general idea of male sexuality than some men, but be totally ignorant of what’s like for any particular man. I think the converse is true for most women. Obviously I’m talking primarily about hetero folks. With regard to masturbating during sex, I can’t recall being with a… Read more »
@Past:
So, when I see posters getting all up in arms that touching oneself while with a partner… who gives shit. It’s their loss.
Actually, Im not missing anything. I can stay home and be just fine. I don’t need sex like so many men seem to.
I would be concerned that if I suddenly started masturbating myself during sex, the guy in question would take it as a criticism his equal abilities. Better to show him how it’s done. That said, some men are willing to be patient and help me have an orgasm, and some aren’t. If a man really cares, he can learn. The ones who are bad and who can’t learn, don’t care enough to learn, in my experience. Could say the same about women learning blow job techniques, I suppose.
*sexual abilities, not equal abilities. Damn autocorrect!
Ask your lover, “Would it turn you on to see me touching myself during sex?” I bet you’ll be rather flattered and pleased with the response.
How many guys under 50 go into sex thinking, “You know, I’ll probably have to masturbate myself to orgasm”?
Lets just be honest…This is proving my point that theres just more to be gained from having sex for men than for women. Average guy under 50 knows he’s gonna orgasm during sex (vaginal, manual, oral) and not have to get himself off unless he wants to.
If women
(sorry I’m not sure what happened)
If women focused on orgasm as much as men, men would be getting laid even less than they are now.
Why can’t you just tell the guy what you want, when you want it, where you want it, and how you want it? That is what I ask women.
Most women cannot orgasm through vaginal intercourse. They need some stimulation, either from him or her.
Sounds like few women really know this?
“You go into sex assuming you’ll have to masturbate? And you’re a man? GIVE ME A BREAK. Sometimes men choose to masturbate themselves, but they dont have to, and they are not expected to.”
????? I am a guy. What exactly are you saying/asking?
All I was saying is a lot of women do masturbate/stimulate themselves during intercourse. Or use toys to do the same. It is not a problem for me at all.
Clear?
Jules:
“Some women do HAVE TO masturbate during intercourse to get themselves off.” (emphasis mine)
That does sound like you are saying it is a requirement, if the woman wants to have an orgasm…
You said “I do” and I thought that meant you going into sex with the idea that you’ll probably have to masturbate to have an orgasm. I’m saying that’s most likely not true.
I do.
It is important that I know a woman’s body. Not just know, but understand. It creates a much better sexual experience for both parties.
maturity is realising that people are different. talk and communicate. try it out if they don’t respond try something else. seriously if your ego bruises easily in this matter then you’ve got some more growing to do.
its all about collaboration.
Jules:
You go into sex assuming you’ll have to masturbate? And you’re a man? GIVE ME A BREAK. Sometimes men choose to masturbate themselves, but they dont have to, and they are not expected to.
Unless you’re >50 this most likely is not true. Most men understand that all they have to do is bump and grind some and something will happen, even men who are older.
It might turn my partner on to see me stimulate myself, during sex, but if it does not stimulate me, is this right? It seems that one or two people here think it is proper for the woman to do all these things to satisfy her man, but for her man to nothing to satisfy her, while she touches her own body. I am confused!! Something about this doesn’t seem fair. Would it be okay if when two people have sex, the woman tells the man, instead of oral sex or vaginal sex, she wants to see him stimulate himself?… Read more »
Fair? What the hell does that have to do with anything?
Jean, seriously. Lots of women stimulate themselves during intercourse. It is not just in the porn flicks. I even do it for her too. I all depends on the position….If a man is unselfish, he can get a woman off through intercourse. It takes longer and the man has to help..
@Julia Byrd, maybe I did not explain myself clearly. Let me put it to you this way. True incident: I hurt myself skating a little while back and my leg and knee are still healing. The sports medicine that is supposed to be rubbed, on the area, feels great when I can lay back in the chair and allow my mate to apply the medicine. It feels great. I could do it myself, but to get the full effect of the treatment, I allow my partner to place the medicine. Sex is not the same as a knee and leg… Read more »
@Julia Byrd, I enjoy discussions, but can we avoid using bad language?
It would make the dialogue not go off in the wrong direction
My apologies for the bad language.
In response to what “Jean” wrote above: “Women were not designed to masturbate and maneuver their genitals during intercourse.” This has to be the most alarming, yet intriguing, “intelligent design” argument I have come across. I never saw anything like this mentioned in my private school’s creationist textbooks. I doubt this will appear in the Tennessee public school sex ed curriculum anytime soon. I simply MUST hear this explained in greater detail. For example, who or what designed the human body in this way? What was the purpose of making women so useless at pleasuring themselves during intercourse? How does… Read more »
I don’t like the tone of this article. Is it even sex positive? There is something about it that I can’t put my finger on that is kind of abrasive and derogating. It doesn’t enthuse on the subject of sexuality as much as it attempts to shame men for feeling shamed about their sexuality. We assume that if men feel uncomfortable with their sexuality it must be because there doing something wrong such as “commodifying women”. Women do send message to men that make them feel uncomfortable about expressing and it is not necessarily men’s fault if they respond negatively… Read more »
IDBY….a lot of your comments (ok, almost all of them) come off to me as extremely resentful of female sexuality and sovereignty. Why is it so upsetting to point out that yeah, women like sex to? Why do you focus so hard on the monogamy model of human relationships, and act as if it’s a default?
Not resentful of female sexuality at all. I’m resentful of the buckets of conscious and subconscious lies that too many women tell men about female sexuality. Even the simple phrase “women like sex” is it’s own special kind of lie. What do you mean by sex? What do you mean by like? Assuming you are female, If you like sex so much why don’t you go bang one of your neighbors tonight? And another one tomorrow. Ya see, I like sushi. And so guess what I’m having for dinner tonight with my friends? And I’ll probably let the chef pick… Read more »
Well, I can agree with you that many women are indeed less than forthcoming about sex. Bottom line is there is nothing you or me can do about it except to be aware of it. I certainly feel you. My ex wife once said she loved “making love to me.” We were having sex less than 10 times a year. Obviously, she was just lying. Unfortunately, too many women do the same thing when it comes to sex. Most men are viewed as unattractive by most women. So, most women (even if they are unattractive too) feel entitled to enjoy… Read more »
Resentment’s occur in situations of perceived inequality. They will always occur in situations of perceived inequality. Rather than trying to shame people about their resentments, you’d do well to fix the system that causes these underlying resentments. Resentment is just another word for the broader emotion of jealousy. It exists to force us to leave situations in which we are being taken advantage of. It is not some evil trick of the devil, it is simple human evolution. Feminists tampered with a system that worked – the system of marriage and child rearing. It wasn’t perfect, but it did work.… Read more »
Very interesting perspective, indeed. “Feminists tampered with a system that worked – the system of marriage and child rearing.” The system worked for men but I am not sure it really worked for women. This is very important to discovering the root cause(s) of the changes in our society. Now, as far as who a women sleeps with it is quite simple. Women will only sleep with men whom they deem attractive and likable. Obviously for some women $$$$ and the man’s social status does indeed matter. However this is for some women, though not all. I would argue that… Read more »
Like a prophet.