The nightmare of family court is enough to deter a guy from even thinking about tying the knot. Just ask Paul Elam.
My advice for men when it comes to marriage is simple: Don’t. And I do mean never. And, yes, that means you.
It isn’t relationship dynamics that will get you—it’s math. And the numbers are scary.
First, and most of you know this, more than half of all marriages end in divorce, not counting the ones that end in murder, suicide, and psychiatric facilities. But that doesn’t mean only half of marriages are failures. Many failed marriages don’t end up as divorces. These are people who stay married and make a hobby of hating each other like Palestinians and Israelis.
And the math on marriage isn’t nearly as disturbing as the numbers you will be faced with when it‘s over. The equation goes roughly something like this.
One angry spouse + 1 lawyer + 1 family court = 1 impoverished man living in a studio apartment and driving a 1981 Buick Skylark.
Numbers are sometimes ugly, but they don’t lie.
But wait, you say, I can change that equation with a prenup!
Yes, you can. Here are the factor-weighed results.
One angry spouse + 1 lawyer + 1 family court + 1 prenuptial agreement = 1 impoverished man living in a studio apartment and driving a 1982 Buick Skylark.
Prenups take more time to draw up than the courts take to toss them aside.
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In modern culture men are better off downing 10 shots of tequila and walking blindfolded through a minefield. The odds are better.
Marriage is quite literally an investment of not only your heart, but all of your work, income—and future income, especially when children are involved. Now, if an investment broker told you he had a deal in which you could invest, and there was more than a 50 percent chance that you would be wiped out and spend most of the rest of your life paying the margin call or going to jail, how much would you invest?
Well?
Oh, come on now, you might be saying. It’s not fair to reduce the institution of marriage into a financial equation. Well, yes it is. Believe me, if the person you marry doesn’t heavily consider your income prior to saying yes, that person is the infinitesimal exception. And for those of you who still think it is natural and right for a man to be the breadwinner and the head of the family, please know that would be the same head that gets lobbed off in the family court where more than half of you will end up.
And even if you don’t think that marriage is largely a financial arrangement, you better believe that divorce is. Reducing holy matrimony to assets and liabilities is precisely what family courts are designed to do. And they do it with brutal efficiency.
Your experience in family court will leave you with a mental block. You won’t even be able to say the words again, for they will find you, shivering in the corner, mumbling incoherently about ”that place.”
Many married men already know this. Those are the guys in the other half of the marriage statistics. You know, the “successful” group? Plenty of them have consulted lawyers because they wanted to escape insufferably nasty, horrifically high-maintenance spouses, but the more legal realities they heard, the more those banshees they were married to began to resemble June Cleaver. When they coined the phrase “take him to the cleaners,” the followup—“cheaper to keep her”—wasn’t far behind.
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Just don’t do it.
Living with a partner may be a better option, but you need to be careful with that one, too. Depending on the laws where you live, you could end up married without knowing it. So gather your facts.
Yes guys, that means go see a lawyer, one who understands men’s legal issues, before you even shack up. Do it the moment she asks if she can leave some clothes in your closet. Better yet, do it now, while you don’t have a girlfriend and can still think. This legal consult will be the investment of a lifetime.
And having children? Sure. Just be prepared for the very real possibility that every connection to those children will be severed when it’s over. Except, of course, for the financial connection. That will be maintained at gunpoint.
So choose that Skylark carefully. You’ll be driving it for a long time.
I know that some of you are thinking, “Oh, that will never happen to me.” All I can say is that more than half of you are deluding yourselves, and the rest of you have no reliable way to know just how lucky you will be. For those who maintain that adolescent sense of invulnerability, such admonitions will fall on deaf ears. Never underestimate the power of denial.
I also know that some of you, especially some women reading this, are saying, “Hey, wait! Not all women are like that! They are not all the same!” And you are right, they’re not. But all family courts are the same. Screwed in L.A. Shafted in New York. Swindled in London. They are all the same.
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Since you are likely not going to listen to me and make your own decisions, and you insist on taking that plunge, I have some suggestions on choosing the right partner which might help with damage control down the road.
First, never finance a relationship. Only date people who pay their own way from the start. It will only reduce your chances of dating and ultimately marrying someone who will feel entitled to all your assets if or when it ends.
Learn from your partner’s behavior. How does she act when you disappoint her? What is her reaction to hearing the word “no,” or when you choose your way instead of her way?
If she takes it in stride and moves on, then you might have a keeper. However, if she responds to the fact that you went golfing when she didn’t want you to by cutting you off in the bedroom for a few days, or by telling you how selfish and immature you are for having any interests that don’t revolve around her, what do you imagine she will do when she fully believes that you are responsible for every ill in her life?
Because that, gentlemen, may be the partner you will face in a divorce. She won’t be rational or reasonable or even principled. She will be, quite literally, your mortal enemy. And she will have the full force of the state on her side, ready to inflict retribution.
… Make that a 1971 Pinto.
And so there you have it, guys. A blunt but nonetheless honest assessment of the modern state of matrimony, which has become the legal equivalent of a slot machine. If you have been alive more than about an hour, someone out there has already experienced the worst.
No one will fault you for pursuing the same goals that men have been pursuing for ages—wife, children, family, and all that comes with it. But we live in an age unlike any other in our history. All it takes to see that is the ability to do subtraction—hopefully before the state does it for you.
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More From Our Special Marriage Section:
Even stellar relationships lose their spark over time; here are the ingredients of a lasting, fruitful partnership, and techniques for weathering the the stormy times: What Your Marriage Needs to Survive
As Gabi Coatsworth’s son’s bipolar disorder gave way to full-blown manic episodes, she watched her husband slip deeper into drink and detachment: Reading Between the Silences
When Tom Forrister transitioned from female to male, his same-sex marriage became a federally recognized, “traditional” marriage. The one constant was the bond he shared with his wife: My Exemplary, Everyday Marriage
Encouraging princess culture—however innocently—contributes to the sexualization of girls. Men can be part of the solution to the “princess problem”: Men and the Sexualization of Young Girls
Guys may think leaving is the right thing to do for the sake of the family, but according to family lawyer David Pisarra, there are a few things they should know before—and after—they walk out that door: A Guy’s Divorce Survival Guide
For all the stories written by and for women on this issue—and there are few—men are more likely to be absent from the public dialogue about intentional childlessness. Why aren’t men’s stories also being heard? Two Is Enough
If you’re married and using Internet porn regularly, your sex life—the one with your wife—is probably a lot less satisfying than it could be: How Porn Can Ruin Your Sex Life—and Your Marriage
Men are more promiscuous than women, but that doesn’t mean we should buy the cultural fallacy that men are programmed to cheat; the vast majority of men are happily, naturally monogamous: Are Men Natural-Born Cheaters?
Tom Matlack talks to married men to find out when they knew their wife was “the one”: She’s the One
About Paul Elam
Vocalyze
Women actually have it worse after divorce… but don’t let facts get in the way of your whining.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1127333/For-richer-poorer-Why-divorce-makes-men-wealthier–women-left-worse-off.html
Then feminist, if that article is correct. As women initiate the majority of divorces, they should be more discerning in whom they marry.
Awsome article. People still believe the lie that women fare worse after divorce. How so? They get the kids AND approximately 35-40% of the guys NET income for 18+ years, plus their entire income, plus all the tax credits and benefits that come with the kids. Oh, that old argument about the “cost of childcare is sooooo high my child support doesn’t cover it”? What most single moms fail to mention is the ex husband gets to pay for that TOO (proportional to their incomes) ON TOP of child support.
This absurd amount is taken from divorced guys paychecks, and they are still expected to provide a home, furniture, food etc. for their kids, if they are lucky enough to get to see their kids on weekends. It seems women don’t care if their kids sleep with Dad in his Buick Skylark on his “weekends”, as long as the money is rolling in for her, who cares about where the kids sleep, it’s her PAID weekend off! (token every 2nd weekend thrown in for dads is really all about mom dating and sleeping and catching up on the exhaustion and hard work of raising kids as a single mom).
Oh bullshit. I am a woman. I married for “love,” not money. I always earned more than my husband. I paid for my divorce. I got no support. I was at risk of having to pay HIM spousal support – a prospect that made me homicidal. He cut deeply into my income by refusing to do his share of the childcare, housework, etc. In spite of his crappy attitude, I made certain that we had joint physical custody, and told our son that he could spend as much time as he wanted with his father and never to feel guilty about it. I never bad-mouthed his father. I never dated or brought another man into my son’s life. It turns out that his dad was an excellent, loving father. He was just a lousy husband.
I would never marry again. I think everyone does it once, thinking they will be the exception and have a happy marriage. The idiots are the ones who marry again.
I have watched men I know marry cunts who are all about buying crap and being wifey and thinking only about themselves and their status in relation to the other wives. That is on the men for being stupid and going for the bimbo. Stop seeing women as armpieces, don’t marry, and if you have children make sure the mother is a good person.
Interesting to hear from a woman “I was at risk of having to pay HIM spousal support – a prospect that made me homicidal.” — because I think this hits the sentiment. The whole idea of any right of spousal support for the long term is utterly wrong. But one should also see that there are quite a few states in the US that generally do not assume that long term spousal support is due.
My own situation was the same, although I will go so far as to say my ex was not a “good” father to my kids. He is, however, their father, and I’ve paid out of pocket to send them to visit him, after receiving about 1/100th of that sum in court-ordered child support (it was a voluntary contribution, because I’ve never sought to legally extract it).
At the same time, I offered my ex a deal I felt was the most likely to get us out of the marriage with as little damage to everyone as possible. Once I was forced to engage the system, my lawyer told me that deal was off the table–no judge would sign off on it. My ex ended up taking a proposal that was over $25k worse for him than the one I’d initially offered, and which my lawyer told me was the bare minimum a judge would approve.
I was also at risk of having to pay spousal support, which is the main reason my lawyer accepted my request not to seek it from my ex–”Well, I suppose we ought to leave that door closed.” And this was a lawyer who made most of his money in mediation rather than litigation.
All of that said, I have the children–sole custody. It wasn’t hard to get. And I could easily extract the child support from my ex or see him jailed. I could destroy him in an instant, by signing a piece of paper and mailing it into the maintenance enforcement office. That I choose not to do so doesn’t mean I couldn’t, or that many women wouldn’t.
Your last paragraph…that is exactly why marriage is a bad deal for men. many chose their revenge that way.
Kyle,
I don’t need some lame article based on 70″s statistics, that even the author has acknowledged were incorrect to know men get screwed financially in divorce. All I have to do is assume I got custody of the kids. Guess what? Instead of going from a gross income of 65K to a net of 29K for being the non-custodial parent, I now get to keep that $936/month I pay in CS. I get $700/month for the kids from their mom. I get $112/month in child benefits, and I get the 4K in tax credits (or 333/month), so I pay less tax. My monthly household is now $2081/month higher. And guess what? I get to have the kids in my life everyday, which is much more of a benefit than all the money in the world. And my ex? Her income would go down by 2081/month, and then she’d be the one living in a Buick Skylark. See how that works? Simple math.
You also get to show up at work late when dropping the kids off at school doesn’t go smoothly. You get to leave early to accomodate sickness, misbehavior, and school events. You get to stay up until 4am with a sick child, then pop up to go to work at 6am the next day.
Even with the stats showing mothers make approx 60% of what all men/childfree women do, that’s not going to help too much with your future promotion / raises.
This article is soooo on the money. Every single word. George Clooney, Jack Nicolson and all the other high-profile marriage avoiders have the right idea.
As discussed previously on these boards — many women seem to be raised to view marriage as the centrepiece of a fulfilling life, whereas men tend to view marriage as the end of their freedom. Ultimately this brings contrasting expectations into the union, and a large number of hard-to-please wives grow to blame their husbands when their lives don’t turn out like a princess, and divorce no fault/ “Eat Pray Love” style in order to “find themselves”. Very nice for them if they get to keep the kids, the house, child support and $$$$ in alimony.
As for all the women who keep repeating ad nauseum that men are happier when married. That is complete and utter BS, … am reminded of the Bill Mayer quote: “Women say marriage is good for men because married men live longer. Well yeah, but so does an indoor cat”
Marriage is a terrible contract for men. If you marry for love and have kids and she changes for the worst over time or you simple want out because you you fell out of love, cheated or just plain cant stand her any more. Whatever the reason you want out, will ultimately destroy you and the kids because of the bias in family courts. Unless you have big bucks to wear her down financially in court or money is no object to settling , all the time and energy you put into raising your kids will be for nothing because most of the time a scorned or bitter woman will turn younger kids against you and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Even if you have the time and big bucks to fight her constantly in court, which is biased in her favour , its really a roll of the dice in getting a decision in your favor. Even crack heads get back custody from liberal judges these days, go figure. I know very few happily married couples and most would get out if the financial consequences made it possible. I got out , because it was freedom or kill me. It was a slow death that had to stop. So either financial ruin or life and I chose life and the opportunity to rebuilt and find a woman to be happy with who appreciates a good man for who he is, not solely for what’s in his wallet. FYI..There are women who despise other women that make men and good fathers miserable and drain our lifeblood. Those proud capable, competent women will walk away too and not ask for a dime because they are proud and have dignity. They are rare but they are out there. Men, there is little upside to marriage for us, my advice is don’t do it. If she has money, be happy together and be proud and supportive of her success. Be a proud man and stay for love… Prenuptial agreements are a crapshoot and have many variables. If you do take the plunge, do so only with a solid prenuptial with you both represented by truly independent counsel. That wouldn’t have helped me because all money was made after the marriage of which my ex contributed nada. Trust me absolutely nada, that’s why I got out. An early divorce granting me custody with the support of a good nanny and housekeeper would have been 10x better for the kids and cost far less. However family court will never see it that way!! Supreme Court isn’t much better. The biased exists there to, but there a woman’s nonsense and outbursts carry less weight and are generally NOT permitted, its not a circus act like family court but will cost you double to fight it out there with no certain outcome either. Good luck my fellow men, there a lots of women out there but very few good men. Remember that, before you go down the road of the unknown and potential life ruination.
As for married men living longer than single men, I suggest that may be a “correlation without a cause.” Just because long life and marriage may have a correlation does not mean that marriage CAUSES you to live longer. Just as likely, the kind of men who are willing to get married are the kind of men who generally live longer. Could be there’s a common cause to living longer and getting married — men who avoid risk, aim for security over excitement, aim to fit in socially, drive safe family cars instead of motorcycles, do what society says is safe, etc. It’s entirely possible that may married men would live just as long or EVEN LONGER if they had not gotten married — possible that married men live a long time despite marriage.
Besides, it’s not the years in your life, it’s the life in your years.
Men need to realize that you don’t need marriage to be happy. You can obtain many of the bennies that are awarded to married couples if you get a lawyer, minus the devastation, should she decide to end the relationship.
Marriage is a social construct that has brainwashed us for centuries. I do not doubt that most men and women desire a mate for a monogamous relationship. That still doesn’t explain marriage. If you can obtain the same benefits as a married couple, without spending time and money on a wedding, wedding ring, etc – why would you do the latter? You don’t need a marriage license to tell you to not cheat on your girlfriend. You don’t need a marriage license to be in love. You don’t need a marriage license to teach your children how to be good people.
Still, many men will walk down the isle because of intimidation. Men know that they don’t have many chances at finding “the one”, so when they do find a suitable mate, they will do anything possible to avoid going back to the single scene. Men want to spill their seed and most will cower to customs so they can continue spilling their seed.
I almost made that mistake. I told my girlfriend of 5 years that I did not believe marriage was necessary to love someone and have a happy relationship. About 2 months later – when it finally hit her that she wasn’t getting a wedding and ring – she left me.
Sometimes I wonder if women want the marriage or just the wedding. Do any of you think women would want to get married if weddings and engagement rings were not customary?
Although I actually agree with a lot of what you say, women are under a lot of pressure to start a family early and not waste their most fertile years. A woman who waits too long, then finds herself stuck in her 30′s without a man or children in her life, is the object of scorn and derision. So it is smart for a young woman to leave a relationship quickly if it isn’t going to lead to a LTR and kids (if that’s what she wants)
I agree with Jill. There’s got to be some reasonable expression of commitment. Without knowing anything else about you and your girlfriend, Mark, I would assume that she didn’t trust that you would be serious with her. I don’t know if you recognized this aspect of being serious in your conversation or if you just left everything open. By “serious” I mean, express a reasoned intent to walk with her down life a pretty darn long way. If I were to start over, I would work with my fiance on a personal expression of the organization of our life together: make a contract that determines the economical constitution, the responsibilities for a joint living. And another “contract” (apart from the first) that determines your personal interactions. The first to be notarized the second to be convocated by an exchange of vows. I think it’s such a great opportunity for a new couple to really think through their hopes and dreams in life with each other and codify it creatively.
If you do that, I think you can even make this consistent with jurisdictional marriage and family law, for example in states like Florida, where I hear contract law is mostly upheld between couples. This could work! Consider that with your next girlfriend.
Your statistics are off. For a couple marrying now, the odds are 60% the first marriage will last. If you finish college before you get married and don’t get pregnant before marriage, your odds go up.
So you will probably stay married. You can also do other things to increase your chances like working on your marriage.
As for those of us who are still married – we’re not all bitter and unhappy. Right now divorce is making you look at us through your own pain.
This article shocks me. Not because it presents any news, but because it is tossing over my boat in which I am steering through life trying to be a good man in a marriage that is breaking down — clearly with faults of my side. I agree to what this article says in terms of risk. But HOW THE HECK does this go in “The Good Man Project”? I think it would be hugely important to connect this thought with all other aspects of what “The God Man Project” is trying to do.
Having read the article, the question is: now what? And for those of us who are married especially: now what?
I think the article hits on a hugely important and valid point, but it leaves a gaping bleeding wound that it provides no tools to deal with. Can we please let this here be a start of a consistent discussion of real actionable options that one can take? Also, can we add some statistics, may be shedding a clearer light about the possibility of successful divorces? Not everyone is out to rip others off. I think the cited statistics leave a lot of questions open.
If this article appeared at some winery man’s rights blog, I would file it as such. But why here on the Good Men Project where I turn to to figure out how to be a good man. Please, please could this subject please be taken up in a moderate more detailed and actionable approach?
For example, it may not be that bad:
- a well crafted and thought through pre-nup can stand
- be more specific about which pre-nups have worked and which have not
- be more specific about jurisdiction (I know UK must be hell, but some US states are fairly OK, other countries?)
- be clear about how the jurisdiction of marriage or jurisdiction of residence at time of divorce matters
- be clear about how a case can be re-opened or amended in other jurisdictions (e.g., married in A then divorced in B, can spouse go back to A and sue to amend the decree from B?)
- look into what really happens in divorce court, the dynamics from start to end, for example:
- many divorcing couples start out in a horrible fight, court resolves nothing, … but
- many times the move to a final resolution happens out of court when the divorcees finally speak again without their lawyers
- how can mediation help and where does it fail?
- how can a marital contract be created that renews every year and that has the sort of fairness built in from the start and is updated? For example:
- I had this idea of complete separation of assets, all asset divisions controlled by title, but a constant adjustment of assets happening every year. In other words, the non-earning spouse would get a salary on their account, their own retirement, all their own assets, everyone knows exactly what they had and agreement was renewed every year. If they split, each takes the things in their title and move on. Nothing should be left to be argued in the worst of times.
Please, please, help the Good Man by providing a real reasoned conversation about this subject which is too important to be left to the extremists warring from the trenches.
My personal opinion is that marriage should be abolished. By that I mean, government should not recognize “marriage,” per se. Instead, individuals could enter domestic partnerships agreements, which courts would enforce using the law of contracts. There would need to be some protections for the rights of minor children, but those issues could easily be worked out using established contract principles, and/ or through some statutory regulation of contract terms. However, this is idea is probably too radical to ever be accepted by the mainstream. In the alternative, I think a simple solution is, if marriage seems like a bad deal, don’t get married. This makes it tough for men who want children, but maybe surrogacy is an option for some men, or adoption.
This is a very good idea. All that marriage becomes is then a contract between 2 people. They are free to negotiate their own contract. The state could even promote boilerplate, but no “Family Law” would be required in addition to just contract law. The state could even use some criteria on these contracts to determine which qualify for additional tax advantages and which do not. While this idea will probably never fly, there is some hope in some US states worth looking at. E.g., Florida apparently recognizes marital contracts (even mid-marital contracts) simply under contract law. May be this is a trend, or may be not, anybody knows? It could be likely that family law won’t be repealed, but if contract law can be used to override the stipulations of family law, it would amount to a workable solution. Who knows more and is there a serious discussion here on The Good Man Project or elsewhere?
Hi Guys,
This is my good deed for the day.
First, it is not marriage that is the problem; it is marriage in America and the Western World. There are many places in the world where women are still devoted to the idea of marriage for life and are against divorce. The family courts in the Western World are one of the most evil institutions under the sun. They are doing untold evil participating in the dismemberment of families and separating children from their fathers. The long-term effects on children without fathers is devastating. They grow up wondering what happened to their father.
Just as someone who chooses to pick up a gun and kill someone is guilty for murder, so western Women are guilty for choosing to use the weapons of the family court.
My story:
I married in America and had a son. My wife decided she was unhappy and eventually left with my toddler son. Eventually the courts allowed my ex-wife to move 400 miles away with my toddler son. The courts mandated that I pay over half my take home pay to her. When I went to visit my son, my ex-wife would not show up for visits. When she did show up, she turned my son
against me.
Eventually, I quit my job and left the country and tried to rebuild my life. Every day I struggle with deep depression and anger over what has been done to me and my son.
Here is a stern warning for all those young men who are unmarried in America or who are thinking of having children.
Don’t do it! Don’t do it! Don’t do it!
Here is what can happen to you:
The chances are greater than 50% you will be divorced.
The chances are much greater than 50% that you will be unhappily married.
If you are divorced, the chances are 9 out 10 you will lose contact with your children, because the women will turn the children against you.
You will be financially ruined. Each month you might be left with say, 500 dollars per month to live on.
She will get entitled to any pensions, social security, and retirement plans you have.
There really is no statute of limitations, so at any time you can be taken to court and lose everything.
If you quit a job to avoid paying, the court imputes income that you could be earning, and this builds up as a debt against you.
You can lose your drivers license.
You can and will be put in jail if you don’t pay.
If you go over 2500 dollars in money owed, your passport is automatically revoked, and you cannot travel.
Really when you decide to have children in America, you have just placed a cage around you. The door of the cage is still open, but it could be closed on the whim of a woman. No questions are asked in the divorce courts as to why the woman wants a divorce. Men are automatically assumed guilty. The family court system is an anti-justice mechanism. The family court system
is a modern day slavery system for men, and a killer of childrens fathers.
Only the most stupid or ignorant of men, would marry and father children in America, given the above facts.
For young American Men, here is what you should do:
Save your money and choose a career that will let you leave America as soon as possible. Get married and have children in another country where family life is still respected.
For parents of young American Men, here is what you should do:
Tell your sons and daughters the realities of the family court system and American Marriage. Discourage them at an early age from marrying and fathering children in America.
Remember, it is not marriage and family life that is evil; marriage and family life are some of the greatest gifts God can give to you. The evil is this: the choice of American Women and the family court system to pervert the holy institution of marriage and family. I believe judges, lawyers, women, and all participants of this system will have harsh judgment in the next life for participating in this system.
I really hope this message helps a young man. If there is some young man and future children I help with this message, it is worth it.
God Bless You.
Fight Slavery! Fight Marriage!!!!!
V said, “The family courts in the Western World are one of the most evil institutions under the sun.”
I agree, but not for the same reason. There are countless abused women who get nothing because the judiciary are Through the Looking Glass ignorant about the markers and manipulation methods of abusers, including litigation abuse, once the abuser no longer has direct access to hies or her target.
Family law court judges shrug their shoulders at abuser / litigants who perjure themselves, and they do not hold them accountable for following court orders. They allow parents who are tens of thousands behind in court ordered support to pay new lawyers an equal sum, in order to keep the fight going. That’s wrong.
The whole system is wrong.
Here’s a radical thought: How about spouses (especially spouses who have children), love, listen to, and respect each other (on net – no one bats a thousand), so that divorce can be avoided, period.
This is no longer what it once was. The courts do not try to ascertain truth that’s the problem. Whoever litigates more fiercely wins. But the system is still unjust, because it makes the husband pay the lawyer for the wife. There is no limit. The only thing that can prevent this is total asset separation with a living income sharing agreement. That way she knows what she’s got and can leave at any time with exactly that. Not more, not less. And child support needs to be revised in the process as well.
my policy is generally, if you won’t take the risk to get married, then I can’t take the risk of being monogamous.
for a woman, time plunked into a non-marriage has steep opportunity cost.
men can crap out kids until they’re 80; but women lost that ability around 35.
oy am i bitter