Lori Ann Lothian wants to know if she’s wrong for wanting to be ‘ravished’.
First time I was ravished, I was 23. It was in a university building stairwell. He grabbed my hair in one fist, pressed me against the cool cement wall and kissed me with such ardor it took my breath away and elicited an instant wet-panty response. I married him two years later.
This passionate engagement became the yardstick by which I measured all future suitors. And I admit shamelessly to wanting a man to take charge sexually and to not ask permission to love me aggressively. I even remember telling one timid man, post-husband, “Don’t worry, I won’t break.”
But I recently discovered that these days both genders resist the idea it’s okay for a man to fiercely love a woman. I learned this through the more than 150 public comments and hundreds of private emails sparked by my article A Call to the Sacred Masculine: Ten Daring Invitations from the Divine Feminine (a piece that soared to over 60,000 views and 16,000 Facebook likes).
Obviously the idea of a feminine call to the masculine struck a collective chord. It elicited overwhelmingly positive feedback from men to invitations like show us your heroic heart, slay your demons, care deeply and dare to dream.
But when it comes to the invitation to just take a woman, without apology? Some women clobbered me with the dictionary definition of ravish, which includes the word rape. Some men asked if I wanted them to revert to brutish macho stereotypes. Both men and women asked me if what I wanted was to go backwards to a time when women were chattel, an asset in the possession of mostly abusive, power-drunk men.
Gosh no. I was simply suggesting that men be, well, manly. Or at least this woman’s definition of it.
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The unexpected popularity of Fifty Shades of Gray (which makes Harlequin romance look like high literature) speaks—no shouts—to the wimpification of men in the era of the Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAG). In the self-help, spiritual growth driven western world, women have sent men the not-so-subtle message to buck up and become more emotionally available.
Yet something has gotten lost in the translation of this request for vulnerability. Instead, I’ve seen men have become emotionally tentative and sexually tepid. When a man I’m in relationship with seems to be asking for permission to sex me up, rather than making his move and letting me choose a yes or no, it’s as if I’ve been given all the power and control. And, unless I’m a dom, that is simply not a turn on.
It is arguably this very desire to relinquish control that accounts for the 60 million sold copies of Fifty Shades—simply, the storyline gives women the option to surrender, to opt for the fine print clause of letting go. It’s a story of a 21-year-old college virgin (yeah, right) meeting an emotionally tortured billionaire man who at first wants to make her his 12th submissive but in the end falls in mutual kinky love. And yes, he spanks her, ties her up and even flogs her (without the genital clamps or fisting, items virgin girl wisely takes off the contract.)
That a bondage-domination-lite hit the mainstream best seller charts is perhaps likely because the mainstream woman (housewife and working girl) is tired of being in charge.
We women have become super-manly in our pursuit of independence to the point that trashy, badly written smut like Fifty Shades strikes a nerve and hits the best-seller charts. The invitation of this book is clear—it’s the woman saying, “Show me your troubled male psyche so that I feel connected to you and dominate me so that I can let-the fuck go sexually and otherwise.”
The lure of being not only not-in-control, but out of control, is a potent elixir for some women who have been asked to step up and compete with men. We don’t want to battle for supremacy in politics, corporate power structures or even sports teams. In fact, we women would prefer to collaborate.
But the feminist agenda has got us women all tied up in the mental knot of “never depend on a man” and “anything a man can do we can do, better.”
♦◊♦
Which brings me to this big question: where are we as a gender-neutral society, where women are asked to be strong and capable and men are expected to be sensitive and emotionally available?
We are probably missing out on the juicy current that the natural polarity between a man and a women (an unadulterated feminine and masculine energy) generates. This is a current that writers like David Deida make into big selling books like The Superior Man. Books that ask men to look at their own chest thumping, warrior-hunter nature and say, yes! Books that tell men to penetrate their woman’s moods and remind women that it’s okay to admit they want to be ravished. Because according to Deida, a truly feminine core (in a man or woman) wants to be taken.
Deida sidesteps the whole ravish versus rape debate with this distinction. “The fundamental difference between rape and ravishment is simple: love.” In other words, when a man loves a woman, his forceful passionate engagement is not only welcome, it is desired. When I want to be ravished, I am really saying I want to be loved with fierce abandon by the man I also fiercely love.
♦◊♦
I loved a man once, for two years. Yet in the end, I left because he was not willing to man-up (he hated that word) and love me with a ferocious current of the warrior-king. Instead, he wanted to be my equal to the point that he also wanted to be my buddy—not my lover, not the one who would just press me against that wall and bind me with his kisses.
In the admittedly cartoonish film 300, Spartan king Leonides has a queen. Gorgo not only has hot sex with her man, she advises him post-coitus on affairs of state. She is also in many ways, as the film progresses, demonstrably as powerful, clever and brave as the king.
I remember seeing this film years ago and thinking, this is really what I want. I want to be a queen to my king. I want a man who loves me with passionate hands-held-over-my head power and yet, who also recognizes me as his partner, his ally and his equal.
Because I am not the lesser half. Or the better half. I am simply the other half.
And as that half, I am also whole. Within me, I carry the current of masculine and feminine. And it’s clearly my feminine essence that wants to play in the playground of Jane and Tarzan. Of Leonidas and Gorgo. Of heck, yes, even of Anastasia and Christian.
I just want to feel like a woman. Even though I am as powerful as a man.
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This article originally appeared in a shorter version in issue 8 of Origin Magazine.
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Image: Amazon
I agree with everything you’re saying. And of course there is nothing wrong with wanting to be “ravished.” It’s healthy to want to passionately connect with the person you love. Fifty Shades of Gray turned me into Fifty Shades of Red and got my fantasy wheel spinning. I say no matter your age, harness your inner Anastasia or Tarzan or masculinity or femininity or whatever you want to label it. (If you need a little help getting ready physically, which can happen with menopause, check out some of these options for vaginal dryness: http://www.shmirshky.com/menopause-blog/2012/05/13/menopause-mondays-vaginal-renewal-complex/)
My, my, my, it’s getting hot in here.
What is feminine and masculine by societal standards may conform with your liking, author. But it does not conform with everyone’s. Do not speak for all women. We are all different and we all like different things. Share your opinion, but share it as what you enjoy not a rant about what women and men should be like. Not everything in the world has to follow to your liking. Sorry. Not all women fit your ideal of “feminine” and not all men fit your ideal of “masculine.” Not every man wants to “ravish” and not every woman wants to be… Read more »
This. A man who doesn’t want to always be dominant isn’t less of a man. This seems to be more her communication issues.
Hey Mandy, I recommend reading this article on GMP, David Deida´s The Way of The Superior Man. and Robert Moore´s King, Warrior, Magician, Lover. There´s a lot going on here – there is a crisis of masculinity and men are looking to redefine their masculinity to enjoy our strength, underlined with love and calm as we don´t want to fall into the bad habits of abuse that some men mistake for masculinity. These books have been of real benefit to me and my partner.
https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/every-man-should-be-a-warrior/
Not all women fit your ideal of “feminine” and not all men fit your ideal of “masculine.” Not every man wants to “ravish” and not every woman wants to be “ravished.”
But plenty of us want to be ravished and to ravish, whether we be men or women. Great article.
This is a sexy, beautiful, powerful, passionate post.
I love it, and it arouses my masculine essence. Were you my lover, Lori, I’d ravish you in a heartbeat.
Bravo, and I hope to see a lot more of this on the GMP. This is what the GMP’s core ethos should be like.
PS David Deida’s stuff is truly a gift. The man understands sexual polarity, and I credit to him in part for the inspiration that is my sexual, personal, and masculine renaissance.
This whole article is one of two things: It’s either: 1 – A personal diary entry that one woman made public about how she wants rougher sex from her partners, which she attempted to make the audience (including herself?) believe that this is what all women want. 2 – This is just another article attempting to emasculate men. In fact, I guarantee this is at least part of it, because of the “dilution” commentary. That is a direct emasculation/nagging act. Maybe you’ve had problems with men who don’t f*ck you hard enough, make you sore enough. Where do you get… Read more »
Russo, You’re projecting. Nobody’s trying to make you feel like crap. Nobody’s emasculting you but yourself. You feel like crap because you’re projecting your insecurities in the bedroom upon the author’s request to be ravished. Ravishment is not about pure force, it’s not about the foot-pounds of torque your pelvis can deliver into hers. It’s about the projection of a feeling, the feeling of masculine power overtaking the feminine. It’s the way a man uses his voice, his lips, his tongue, his hands, that convey passion and need, and a little bit of “owning” her body. It is my Italian… Read more »
Beautifully put Russo. Bravo!
I think Justine meant Revo, I hope she did, a wonderful reply to Russo.
“The fundamental difference between rape and ravishment is simple: love.”
I don´t feel any love in Russo´s post: for himself, for women, for anything. Sort yourself out bro, be good to yourself and stop stinking the place up.
Thanks mike. Your commentary strikes to the heart of absolutely nothing I wrote about. It’s not about rough sex, or your cock. This piece was about the kind of energy a man brings to a sexual relationship with a woman, which also translates to the kind of energy he brings to the rest of his life…just as the kind of presence I bring to the world as a woman, is reflected in way i am with my man….but you seemed to have taken this awfully personally. Just say’in.
I apologize. It’s been a long time since I’ve read this article. I really don’t remember what it was about. I have a strong reaction to this kind of thing because I have a personal history that haunts me. But I have to say I don’t believe that any strong social forces have diluted men. How the h*** did you think that was going to go over did you honestly think anybody would respond pleasantly to that? You claim I didn’t get to the heart of anything that you wrote. Maybe it’s time for authors to finally consider what the… Read more »
Bump to the comment about women assuming all the have to do is show up. Sex with my last girlfriend sucked, it always did, at least for me. She never acted like she wanted to be there, and she was probably always thinking about something else. And bump again, women do not have the sole say as to whether the sex was good or not. You asked for men to be more sensitive, so now we are. We’re telling you that you have to do some work here was well.
Seems like there are too damn many rules to this ravishing act. If I’m not concentrating on MYSELF, being all archetypal and animal and nonverbal, I’m not man enough to stir the woman. One touch that is a fraction of a pound-per-square-inch too tender, one jaw muscle not sufficiently flexed, one murmured word followed by her name, and my manliness is in ruins. I have not “taken” her. I have not “led” the dance. I have merely grabbed her disgustingly, like some stumbling “little” male. It’s enough to make a guy long for the days of plain old erectile dysfunction.… Read more »
I agree with Julie about the archetypal stuff – which often ends up being essentialist. I found Deida’s book utterly offensive and the archetypal discourse rooted in patriarchy with little room for different expressions of masculinity and femininity. When will we move away from basing our sexual life and understanding of sexuality on fairy tales? Isn’t it time for the discussion on gender and sex to grow up? When Lori talks about being ravished it sounds like what she is talking about is knowing that she is really wanted, needed, taken, given her a sense of belonging – men want… Read more »
So, alot of complaining about how porn have ruined male wiev of sex.
Can we now say the same about women and romance novels?
I have to be honest. This talk of ravishment makes me want to laugh. It just like what PUAs are saying but with a prettier ribbon.
Also: It is NOT unmanly to be afraid of anything. Fear is natural. Fuck anyone that is saying that. This comes from an extremesporting, mix martial artist. If the woman is saying this dump her because she is an asshole and can’t value you for who you are.
Also, I as a warrior/king/alpha or wathever you want to call it. Do not want a queen. I have had to, since I was a little boy, endure hardships and fight for my right to exist. I would like an equal, both in the bedroom as in all other things. A queen is someone that I Have to be with not someone that I want. I want a warrior as well. Someone that, when I kiss her, she kisses back a little harder. Pushing me to become harder, hornier and gives as much energy as I. A woman that isn’t… Read more »
This!!! cant agree more! I think why I don’t really into ravishing things is because when someone said men need to ravish woman and need to be dominant, I think of one sided sex. Man desire his woman, but woman want to be desired. The woman do not desire her man, just want to be desired. And I don’t like it. If I want to ravish a woman, and show her that I desire her badly, she need to show me that she desire me badly too. “Someone that, when I kiss her, she kisses back a little harder. Pushing… Read more »
There are a lot of assumptions here by you about what a ravished woman looks like. When my man ravishes me, I ravish back. As for the king-queen analogy, that IS about equals, INTERDEPENDENT partners each on the throne of their innate masculine and feminine power. The trouble with this dialgoue, is you are reading my piece entirely literally, and missing the archetypal.
Yes, exactly, thank you Lori! Too many readers are taking this dialogue way literally. Check your preconceived notions of what kings and queens are in the mundane world and open up to the archetypal energies as they exist in our collective superconsious.
The thing is though, that not everyone shares the same “archetypal energy” or the believe in evo psych.
Equal have a different meaning between men and women. An equal is somenone that gives and takes the same as I. Not someone that have the same station. You need to earn it. And women, if you want to do just that, you aren’t doing so by complaining about how so few men just don’t seem to want to “man up”. Women seem to believe that they are good in bed by just showing up. This notion is so ingrained that most women I have been with become extremelly insecure or angry when I have said that the sex could… Read more »
I totally agree with you about the “just showing up” part. And I love the double bind it places men in. Either we don’t mention what could be better, don’t complain about sex and remain chronically dissatisfied. Or we speak up, turn her off, bring on the wrath and scorn and miss out on the boring sex too. I think what it means when a woman says she ravishes back is that all the hand-wringing, apply-back-of-wrist-to-forehead comments comparing ravishing to rape were way out of line. Because I’m sure they don’t mean they rape their men back. “Women seem to… Read more »
Many of aren’t missing the archetypal, it’s just that it doesn’t fit for all of us. If you ravish back, does that mean you are enlisting innate masculine power and he is enlisting innate feminine power? Curious, not snark. Are you seeing all humans as containing both? Or that males have masculine and females have feminine. I know a great number of women who don’t fit that particular mold….
Thank you very much for this article. While a number of people commenting have made points that are very relevant to their own experiences, I had spent a great deal of time in my past relationships tediously navigating what I guess could be termed over-consent. I would never make a move without verbal permission because I’d worry that she’d be offended or maybe just not into it, to say nothing of the embarrassment of being shot down for trying. I’ve encountered a very large number of women who feel similarly to how the author feels: actively desiring of ravishing. Some… Read more »
Thank you John for your comment. Yes, a man who wants to ravish his beloved but is afraid, is unmanly in that he is not true to his nature, nor desire. That said, for the knee-jerkers out there, no means no, and ravish does not mean rape.
Thank you John for your comment. Yes, a man who wants to ravish his beloved but is afraid, is unmanly in that he is not true to his nature, nor desire. That said, for the knee-jerkers out there, no means no, and ravish does not mean rape.
I think that’s going to come down to why exactly he is afraid to do so. To strike one out as unmanly at the first sign of fear goes right into the old idea that a “real man” isn’t afraid of anything.
I did not use the unmanly word, for the record. It was in response to a direct question up the threat. That said, of course it is not unmanly to have fear. Fear can be a healthy fight or flight response. But if a man wants to passionately love his woman, and is a afraid to go there (even as she invites it) the part that is less than manly, is the reluctance to address this fear. Not the fear itself. Men have an evolutionary imperative to protect their kin. Protection, (along with hunting, fighting, defending) require courage. Courage is… Read more »
Of you course you didn’t start the use of unmanly in this particular string, just following suit. I think the reason this is so difficult is the whole mass that is made of the concepts of fear/courage/etc… have some pretty specific implications for men. Implications that frankly women don’t face (they seem to have another set of implications, which of course men don’t face). But if a man wants to passionately love his woman, and is a afraid to go there (even as she invites it) the part that is less than manly, is the reluctance to address this fear.… Read more »
Then I must be exceptionally manly. Women show courage in the face of fear as well, and we have an evolutionary imperative to protect our kin as well. This makes no sense.
Some women love being ravished. Some men love ravishing. Vice versa. In same sex relationships those dynamics exist.
I’d have a much easier time appreciating this article if it was about assertive energy and receptive energy rather than some binary on male and female roles. Roles can switch mid sexual encounter for that matter, and often do.
” Yes, a man who wants to ravish his beloved but is afraid, is unmanly in that he is not true to his nature, nor desire. ”
Do you likewise believe a woman who is unwilling to be ravished (by that I mean taking great offense to even an attempt to initiate, even when no is accepted as no), is unwomanly, unfeminine, regardless of her reasons?
Seems like there are too damn many rules to this ravishing act.
If I’m not concentrating on MYSELF, being all archetypal and animal and nonverbal, I’m not man enough to stir the woman. One touch that is a fraction of a pound-per-square-inch too tender, one jaw muscle not sufficiently flexed, one murmured word followed by her name, and my manliness is in ruins. I have not “taken” her. I have not “led” the dance. I have merely grabbed her disgustingly, like some stumbling “little” male.
It’s enough to make a guy long for the days of plain old erectile dysfunction.
What about Lori Ann’s article suggests rape? Am I missing the part where she was an unwilling participant in the events she described, kicking and screaming in an attempt to stop the man from progressing?
There is a stark, glaring difference between passionately taking charge in the bedroom, in leading the dance as it were, and rape. Perhaps it includes role playing or BDSM or an egg beater, but it’s not that prescriptive. It’s about attitude. It’s about claiming a woman and bedding her without a bunch of conversation.
Exactly! Thank you for shedding some common sense light on my article. I am, however, learning so much about the filters through which readers will interpret my words. This has been valuable. Better than a focus group!
Thank you. This is a topic I’m passionate about. Feel free to email me if you’re so inclined, you should have the address in the email you received about this reply. You can also click on the link in my name and search my blog for “duality,” “because they are beautiful,” and “man without a chest” for some examples of my forays into the subject. (I’m skipping hyperlinks to avoid moderation.) I am a religious right-winger, though, so consider yourself warned. Some find me offensive.
I already do, and you’ve hardly said anything.
For those like me who have embraced the Consent paradigm, it’s understandable that the idea of being ravished is alarming. It brings to mind this image of being taken by surprise and seized by an aggressively enthusiastic (unapologetic, to use Lori’s word) lover, and the suggestion that we’re supposed to enjoy this gives many of us chills. The more I think on it, though, I realize this is just one model of how ravishment can work, and a rather unnecessarily paranoid one at that. I can conceive of a different model. For example, it’s date night for an established couple.… Read more »
What would I give to meet a woman like Wanda? Let’s start with what I wouldn’t give. That list is shorter…
Ah, well, there are lots of patient, compassionate women out there. A lot of them are just good at hiding (I’m a pretty dedicated introvert myself, aha). I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I just hope that you can be happy with yourself and be satisfied with that. 🙂
Because he’s clearly too unmanly to satisfy any woman?
No, because no one should have to rely on someone else to make them happy. When you expect others to improve your life for you, you’ll never be happy. If you are happy with who you are and what you do, then everyone else can bugger off.
I’d like you to quote the part where I called Mike unmanly though. As I just finished saying in the comment above that there is no such thing as “unmanly” in my eyes. I would never in my life call a man that. :/ It’s as insulting as calling a woman “unlady-like”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU
From the article: “The fundamental difference between rape and ravishment is simple: love.” In other words, when a man loves a woman, his forceful passionate engagement is not only welcome, it is desired. WTF!? So all men who’ve ever had their sexual advances turned down by their partner either don’t love her or they haven’t been forceful enough? I’ll just repeat: WTF? Gosh no. I was simply suggesting that men be, well, manly. Or at least this woman’s definition of it. Perhaps you should focus more on finding a man who happens to be what you define as manly rather… Read more »
Tamen, with the first quote it says ” his forcefull passionate engagement was not only welcome, it is desired”, I’m confident that David Dieda intended this to mean literally that the man was welcome and desired by the woman in this hypothetical case. NOWHERE DOES IT SAY AGAINST HER WILL !!! Are we now at the point that we interpret almost anything as rape? This is exactly the problem… There is no mention of her turning down his advances, nor anthing implying that no means anything other than no in Lori Ann’s article – yet above you (and many others… Read more »
A welcome and desired forceful passionate engagement is not rape. You didn’t find anything strange with the statement that the only difference between ravishment and rape is love (when a man loves a woman).I thought the difference would be consent. I have no problems with the authors desire for being ravished, I have no problems with her finding partners who will ravish her. I do have a problem with her prescriptiveness, her use of gender policing (unmanly) and the implied expectation that men should just magically know whether a woman would consent or not without her having to communicate it… Read more »
Good points, now I understand what your meant.
It sure is a minefield
@ Jman Yes. And more than that. Sexuality is a canary in the coal mine….there are broader implications there. But that is another article (sure to be misread, but i will keep trying). Thank you for your synopsis. The most level headed and most reflective of what i was actually trying to communicate.
thanks Tamen for your comments. I have a man who is manly and who meets my preferences. The article is not about my love life. It is about a collective archetypal shift…
It is of little importance here whether the man in the stairwell was a stranger or a date or a long term lover — or the truth, a man I was getting to know over several dates. The ravishment is a place of extreme sensitivity for you, and I am sorry to hear of your challenge around a transgression as a young man. YOu say this event with a cousin ruined your life, even though at the time you did not know it was wrong. What comes to mind as a reader, is 1) you were not intending harm 2)… Read more »
To Original Author Lori Lothian, You have completely invalidated your own arguments. I can’t believe no one has noticed this. Quote from a comment of hers: “It’s not complicated. I am talking about mutual consent in relationships. Not about a first date.” And in your original article: “First time I was ravished, I was 23. It was in a university building stairwell. He grabbed my hair in one fist, pressed me against the cool cement wall and kissed me with such ardor it took my breath away and elicited an instant wet-panty response. I married him two years later.” This… Read more »
Er, Mike Russo, I happen to know for a fact that kissing someone does not equal rape in any legal system of which I am aware. What happened on the stairwell was a minor form of sexual assault and had she chosen to press charges against him for it, it wouldn’t have resulted in jail time or (for a first time offense) likely expulsion from a campus, though I’d suspect a suspension on most campuses today. Otherwise, I cosign your post 100 percent, but thankfully not every form of contact that might be construed as sexual is considered legal rape.… Read more »
“Er, Mike Russo, I happen to know for a fact that kissing someone does not equal rape in any legal system of which I am aware.”
Have you read the definition of rape as defined by the FBI? Thankfully, it is not the one used by the courts of law YET. That said, kissing IS considered, legally, a sexual assault, if it is unwanted.
Lastly, the Authors example of ravishing in the stairwell isn’t limited to kissing.
“Have you read the definition of rape as defined by the FBI?”
Yes, I have. To the extent that I’m aware that “forced envelopment” is not considered rape in those new statistical measures.
I’ve been reading about this stuff since the late 90’s.
To clarify the relevance, the FBI definition states any penetration of an orifice by any appendage, this includes fingers and tongues, without consent, is rape. So by the FBI definition, a kiss has been defined by a legal agency as potentially being rape.
Lots of comments and I haven’t read them, so perhaps this has been stated upstream. This is only controversial if you ignore your lying eyes. We can talk about conditioning and this and that, but, as a man, ask yourself what you were doing when she came the hardest. Were you talking to her or taking her? My money is on the latter.
Eating. I was eating her.
I think being a cunning linguist actually counts as the former and not the latter, despite the word “linguist.”
A typical article. A woman doesn’t like the sex she has and shames and complains about men, instead of taking full responsibility for her sex life. Here is my favourite advice on this site made by commenter QuantumInc in a different thread:
“If a Person A has certain behaviors and beliefs that cause problems for Person A they must change their behaviors and beliefs in certain ways to avoid having those problems.
Even if Person B has a role to play in those problems, Person A still needs to change themselves first because you can’t really change other people.”
Yay I’m being quoted. A lot of sex positive feminists suggest that if a woman says “No” but clearly means “Yes” that one should in fact refuse to have sex with her just to send the message that this confusing and “rapey” behavior is unacceptable. She shouldn’t be able to get laid until she is willing to verbally consent to getting laid. I understand that certain language, certainly legalistic terms like “consent” is a turn off, but if a woman finds that talking about sex is itself un-sexy, that is a serious problem, one worthy of therapy. It seems there… Read more »
I love the sex I have….I see the societal and cultural reasons, that many times, i have wished for the sex I now have.
I’m a woman and a feminist and I say that any “fantasy” a woman has rides SOLELY on her shoulders. If she wants to be ravished, all she needs to do is tell him so. It’s not that hard. It’s fine that many women like to be ravished, but speaking as someone who that fantasy does not appeal to in the slightest, I really wouldn’t want any man to assume that about me just because I’m female and because I’m not a dominant person. In turn, I would never assume anything about a man’s fantasies simply because he’s a guy.… Read more »
Wanda (& Pat) Applause! This new type of man, “diluted” or not, is fine with me, too. Just because a person has “50 Shades of Grey” on their nightstand, doesn’t mean they want to do the things portrayed inside the book. They may have bought this grammar-less literary travesty just to see what the fuss was about. Should a man take its presence in the room as a license to tie a woman down and abuse her? Because asking first ruins the fantasy? No, thank you.
@W.R.R…
She can always say “STOP. I don’t like this kinky stuff.”
@Julia Byrd Will that man stop? If he’s been conditioned by other women that no means yes? That’s the problem. Or one of them, anyhow. And that woman may report him for rape even if he does stop. Good men are reticent for very good reasons.
@Julia Byrd
By that point, damage has been done. For some people this could be downright terrifying. And not everyone, particularly not everyone who is afraid and facing someone who’s likely physically stronger, is going to have the capacity to say that. Starting up any (fairly serious) rough play without talking about it first with the expectation that “she’ll just say stop if it’s too much” is neither a smart nor caring way for a man to behave.
I respectfully disagree.
Yeah. I think my whole problem with this discussion is that the feminists say men shouldn’t behave like what the author is describing, thus defining how men should act and shaming men as rapists for acting that way. The author is also defining how men should act and shaming men who don’t as unmanly (and ironically, none of the feminists seem to have a problem with this gender shaming, just the assertion men should act in ways they don’t like). Nether one is willing to take responsibility for the mixed signals the combined discussion sends out, instead both blaming men… Read more »
I don’t care what men do, honestly, as long as it doesn’t affect me. He can be as sexually aggressive, dominant, manly, “I do all the repairs and fix the cars and whatnot while you cook the meals” all he wants! I just don’t think I’d want to date that kind of person. And that’s fine. He probably wouldn’t want to date me. I’d most likely make him miserable. And that’s okay! Just because I don’t want to date a certain kind of man doesn’t make him any less worthy of love. And it doesn’t mean there aren’t women out… Read more »
” It’s insulting, and incredibly entitled to think one can define how the other gender should behave.”
It sure is. Which is why i pointed the finger back at us women, for telling you men to be sensitive when what we wanted was vulnerable…and strong.
Unfortunately, you also pointed a finger at men with the assertion it is unmanly to fail to do the ravishing. It’s not unmanly to be cognizant of the risks, to be aware of just how much damage can caused should you have miscalculated, even the slightest. 30+ years ago, women could be trusted that, if a man initiated a ravishment and was mistaken (and stopped when prompted to), it would end there. That’s not the case today. A miscalculation can ruin a mans life. It’s not unmanly to recognize that change, that loss of trust. http://www.citeste-ne.ro/in-memoriam-edith-shain-iconic-wwii-nurse/ That would never happen… Read more »
I have been tempted to get the book at the library, just to laugh at it. It sounds AWFUL, and if there’s anything that tickles me, it’s reading awful writing. And I don’t have to feel bad making fun of it, cuz the author is making bank. People don’t always assume men who play violent video games are violent people, so why do people assume women who read kinky books are kinky people? This is why I keep my reading selections private. I have enough people making enough assumptions about me, as a woman, writer, and artist; I certainly don’t… Read more »
People don’t always assume men who play violent video games are violent people, so why do people assume women who read kinky books are kinky people? This is why I keep my reading selections private. I have enough people making enough assumptions about me, as a woman, writer, and artist; I certainly don’t need to add more. I’m not sure about your use of always but actually yes people do assume that men that play violent video games (and watch violent movies and read violent books) are violent people. (The reason I say I’m not sure about it is because… Read more »
@Wanda..
“If she wants to be ravished, all she needs to do is tell him so.”
Yes, common sense says so. But, in reality this is not what happens! You’re in denial. Most women are NOT going to tell a man what she wants. She is going to expect him to “read her tea leaves.”
Just because you are an emotionally available and sensitive man does not make you unmanly. It is a lack of sexual dominance and aggressiveness that does.
Just saying.
@ Jules A lack of sexual dominance and aggressiveness does not make a man unmanly, either. You may be that way if you choose or were simply born that way, but that doesn’t mean all men have to be aggressive or sexually dominant just to be manly. Nobody can dictate for others what manly means. Define it for yourself and yourself alone. My manliness is not based in aggression and dominance. Everybody I know is grateful for this. They like me being kind and sensitive. Both ways can be right. But we can’t decide what manly is for others.
“Just because you are an emotionally available and sensitive man does not make you unmanly. It is a lack of sexual dominance and aggressiveness that does.” Really? Because fuck that. My lack of sexual dominance is what keeps me out of jail. My lack of sexual aggressiveness means I don’t catcall, don’t grope, and don’t assume a woman wants to have sex with me unless I hear her tell me “yes”. Those are my values and sticking to them is part of what makes me manly. Living this way is how I contribute to making this world a safer and… Read more »
Could you concede that that this PC state of affairs that is so common in the Anglo Saxon world, does indeed reduce the sexual polarity between men and women?
Personal, I think that reading between the lines, body language etc, and going for what you want is very successful with women. Asking every step of the way, come on!
I will concede that sexual education and awareness of sexual diversity (“PC”) that’s been gaining education in the United States* does indeed reduce the default polarity between the sexes. As in, exclusively men are no longer expected, pressured, and forced to provide all the initiative and drive in a relationship while exclusively women are no longer expected, pressured, and forced to submit to that initiation. However, I don’t think that at all reduces the polarity within relationships. It just means that now women can be the warrior-queens if that fulfills them, with men as the husband-king if they’d prefer that.… Read more »
You’re right. I’m in denial over what *I* would do. *confused* I’m not in denial of anything. I never said women don’t do that. I say they SHOULDN’T do that, so no, it has nothing to do with denial. I don’t date women. I don’t know what they do. None of my female friends date much, so I haven’t much of a clue what actually happens. The dating world is a foreign land I have at large avoided, for this very reason. There’s a lot of bitterness, anger, and mixed messages floating around, and I don’t think it’s worth it.… Read more »
“I really don’t like people encouraging men to read women’s minds, because it means that everything I say, men feel pressured to think, “Oh, but what she REALLY means is X. Or maybe she means Y? Or maybe I should just react to Z”. No, I mean the thing I said I meant. Everything I say is not a secret “woman” message yearning for a compliment. And I can’t blame men for thinking it, because it’s really what many women expect men to do: read minds.” A-freaking-men! We’d all be so much better off if both sides didn’t play mind… Read more »
Its rare, but truly wonderful when they can speak their minds honestly but non-aggressively.
Strangely, women from some cultures seem far better at signalling what they want non-verbally.
Good, open, honest communication can help with this, but still, we shouldn’t just assume that every woman is capable, willing and equipped for a forthright conversation about what they want in bed. But then it’s quite clearly her responsibility when she finds that she’s not getting what she wants in bed. It’s not her partner’s fault for not correctly guessing/not willing to take the risk of guessing correctly based on her skirting the issue, padding her meaning or just plain being indirect. It is her who has to overcome her social programming in order to articulate what she wants –… Read more »
Nowhere did I say it was the man’s responsibility to guess what she wants if she can’t articulate it. I’m totally with you on that – it would be her responsibility to overcome that boundary. I’m going out on a limb here… While it may strike us sex-obsessed (tongue-in-cheek there) GMP readers and commenters strange, I think it’s possible and even likely that there are women, and men, out there who just really don’t think about their sexual needs very deeply, never mind their ability to articulate and communicate. People who just accept a less-than-ideal sex life as “this is… Read more »
@KKZ..
“AND THAT’S OK.”
No, that is not OK.
Just because you can cope or handle it does NOT mean it is OK.
That’s like saying getting 25 to life for murder is OK, IF you can handle doing the time. Hell the fuck no. That is not OK!!!
Whoa whoa whoa, I didn’t say anything about coping. Coping would imply there’s something wrong but you’re shouldering the burden and soldiering on anyway. What I mean is, not everyone prioritizes their sex life and sexual satisfaction the same way! For some people, having a 100% satisfying sex life is very very important and they’re willing to put in the work to make that happen. For others, it’s simply not that important, so if they’re less than 100% satisfied, they don’t see that as a problem, it’s just the way it is. For them, 80-90% satisfaction may be all they… Read more »
“And there are others who simply* see it as a priority to be more healthy’fit than they already are.”
*should have read, who simply DON’T see it as a priority.
@KKZ
Thanks for the clarity. I get it now.
I would say you are right on this one. I spent over a decade in a sexless marriage. While I was never happy, I simply endured the torment and misery. However, when I saw no prospect for change on the part of my ex wife, I made the decision to divorce. She simply refused to make our sex life a priority period. Nor would she seek help to figure out what was wrong. I was always dismissed when I attempted to discuss the matter in a civil manner.
Nowhere did I say it was the man’s responsibility to guess what she wants if she can’t articulate it. I’m totally with you on that – it would be her responsibility to overcome that boundary. I am glad you thinks so, but when the dialogue reads something like this: A: “I really don’t like people encouraging men to read women’s minds, because it means that everything I say, men feel pressured to think, “Oh, but what she REALLY means is X. Or maybe she means Y? Or maybe I should just react to Z”. B: “A-freaking-men. We’d all be so… Read more »
Maybe I was unclear with “We’d be so much better off…” — with that We, I meant humanity in general, not women specifically.
What you’re pointing out is not really a flaw in my logic, but rather the stark difference between the Ideal Situation (everyone communicates their sexual desires to their partners, eliminating the need for guessing) and Reality (a lot of people really struggle to talk about sex or put their desires into words). That’s sort of what I was getting at… Amen, we should stop playing mind games and just be forthright! But, that’s not always gonna happen.
I understand completely. I’m actually speaking from a “wishful thinking” part of my mind, because I’m very much a woman who doesn’t like to make waves. I’m really bad at saying what I think because I just want to be nice, so I think part of this is the reason I don’t really want to date. XD I think I’d be really bad at it and probably string men along when they don’t deserve that, all out of of an effort to be nice and nonconfrontational. I have a bit of social anxiety and always want people to think well… Read more »
I think you’d agree though that whatever the cause for a person not asking for what he or she wants, the person has to take responsibility for therefore not getting what he or she wants want.
Directed @ KKZ
I replied above to someone making the same comment – and yes, I essentially agree, it is a person’s own responsibility to speak up, no matter what the barriers, if they are unsatisfied and want something to change. And if they can’t bring themselves to do that, then they should at least OWN that it is their own tongue-tied-ness that prevents progress and not blame the other person. I know personally that I can talk about other people’s sex lives and sex in general until the cows come home but I still get tongue-tied talking to my own partner about… Read more »
Wanda (and anyone who posted in favor if her points), Thank you! as I said in my post below, I want to put every ounce of myself into making love to a woman, but I must be absolutely certain I know what’s going on in her head and that she wants this as well. Of course, it’s not working out great for me. For reasons I previously mentioned, I spent a lot of time not able to approach women because I would see how beautiful and smart she was, and how wonderful, and if I were to go over there,… Read more »
Communication can be really hard, and I think a lot of society’s pressures can be blamed. Men are expected to be forward BUT NOT TOO FORWARD and women are expected to be innocent and submissive BUT ALSO KINKY PORN STARS and it’s all so messed up. I will straight up admit I love reading romance, but I hate about 95% of romance that’s out there because of this problem. “No” in romance always means “yes”, and it really does poison women’s minds into thinking men can just fly in, read their minds, and know when their “no’s” mean “yes”. But… Read more »
WRR, no need to get defensive. It sounds to me you only tried to ravish your ex because you heard that’s what she wanted. I don’t think you actually want to with a woman, given your history. So I used to be a people pleaser, and its gotten me into some edgy situations. I honor your path of recovery, and I respect you as a man for what you choose to do. If you spend your whole life in reaction to what other people do or say, you will never experience the true joy of doing what is in your… Read more »
@ Jean B, I appreciate the respect, but Lori’s comment of “unmanly” calls for some defensiveness. At present I’m too deep in therapy and trying to heal to allow anybody to tell me I’m unmanly. One woman liking to be ravished (or a million) doesn’t mean all women like and want it. A man shouldn’t be blamed and shamed for deeming the risks to his life too great to risk it for a woman’s momentary fantasy pleasure. Women need to realize their part in the defensiveness and reticence of good men.
Very much agreed
Very good point – the range of expression of sexuality in men and women varies greatly, and the range of what we desire varies alot, and is influenced by media, cultural norms & attitudes etc.
However I do think feminism, PC and “rape culture/rape guilt” have watered men and women’s polarity down, reducing how much ravishing gets done, is expected, and is attempted.
“However I do think feminism, PC and “rape culture/rape guilt” have watered men and women’s polarity down, reducing how much ravishing gets done, is expected, and is attempted.” This is the point Lori is essentially making. And I don’t think it would generate nearly as much controversy if it weren’t for the spin she’s put on it – that the abandoning of ravishment as an accepted sexual paradigm is a bad thing, or at the very least, not the direction she thinks we should be going. I confess I’m on the fence with this one. I agree that the aggression… Read more »
KKZ It seems I failed to hit the mark. You and others think my message is: “that the abandoning of ravishment as an accepted sexual paradigm is a bad thing,” My message is the loss of polarity is a bad thing…the penetrating masculine, the receptive feminine. If a man is tentative, and asks permission, to love me/sex me (in a relationship) i don’t feel I can let go into the arms and heart of a strong masculine presence that can hold the space for my fullness of expression as a woman. this plays out on more than the sexual playing… Read more »
If I asked, and you turned away…I might not want to take you. Maybe just slap you across the face and leave. There, how’s that for manly?
May I retract the above? It was insensitive. I don’t go around hitting people when they disappoint me.
I have to say I find this intensely confusing. I read any number of posts, often on the GMP, from women who describe their constant awareness of the risk of sexual violence. The message (to the men) seems to be render yourself as “safe” as possible and not only take “no” for “no,” but require a clear “yes” for just about everything. Then this, and others like it, lamenting how unassertive, oversensitive, and unmanly we have become and demanding we toss women against the nearest hard surface and have our way and expect that’s what she “really” wants and we’re… Read more »
These are good points. But what if a harlequin romance character has something of value? The odd part is, those romance novels are as popular among modern women as Fifty Shades. Why? That is what I want to know? My preferences is not why I wrote this piece. I wrote it because i was observing my female friends, of all ages, in the last few years, whine about their men who were too simply to solicitious and not agressive enough sexually. I happen to have as well experience that issue in my serial monogamy career, though with the man I… Read more »
The odd part is, those romance novels are as popular among modern women as Fifty Shades. Why? That is what I want to know?
Why are there so many people buying and playing all these combat and assassin’s computer games?
Do they really want to go out and shoot/murder all these people, or do you think that maybe they are just fantasizing?
And what about all the women *not* buying Harlquin/FSoG?
Lori this is my problem with your “ravish” idea; your examples. I think I can see what you are trying to explain, and I grasp you mean an established commited couple, etc. But 50 Shades of Grey and Outlander as examples of “ravish” don’t work. I realize my perception is viewed through the lens of a male rape survivor, but 50 Shades made me very upset. To me, Christian Grey is not only a bad portrayal of an abused boy, he seems terrible abusive, controlling, co-dependent and a basic asshat. Also the book is wrong in many ways on the… Read more »
You are right. I was not looking at the broad storyline in Outlander, only that hundreds of female friends and friends of friends have raved about the manly man hero of the book…..and sorry, i skimmed it, so did not have the full picture. And yes, the 50 shades was unreadable pulp smut for me, but I am looking at the cultural acceptance (feeding trough, even) that this book became.
I want to ask you a question Lori, do you think man who want to ravished by woman instead of ravish her is not manly and not masculine? And how about woman who want to ravish a man ? Do you think shes not feminime?
Because this is impression I got from you while reading this article.
If a man wants to be ravished that is fine, and it is not unmanly. If a man who wants to ravish his woman is afraid to ravish his woman, that is unmanly….
In a relationship, both partners of course take turns being the ravisher/initiator. This piece is not about sex, it’s about polarity.
Lori Ann
so a man who is afraid of doing unconscious sex ( or rape ) with his woman is not manly? Well then I would rather be an unmanly guy
Lori you said: “If a man wants to be ravished that is fine, and it is not unmanly. If a man who wants to ravish his woman is afraid to ravish his woman, that is unmanly….” So me, a male rape victim since age four? I’m “unmanly” because I’m afraid to ravish a woman? Even though I may risk prison if I try and she changes her mind? Or perhaps I didn’t read her mind correctly? Also, not all women want this. You don’t speak for all women, as I don’t speak for all men. But after all I have… Read more »
It’s not complicated. I am talking about mutual consent in relationships. Not about a first date.
One thing that strikes me about Lori’s article is that she’s talking about fantasy. Unfortunately she’s describing it as some sort of New Agey spiritual truth. But it’s a fantasy, a fairly common female fantasy about being overwhelmed by a powerful male. (See: 50 Shades of Grey, and practically any boddice-ripper romance novel.) The thing is, if you have ever been in a relationship with a controlling, selfish, domineering jerk, you will quickly realize that those kinds of men are horrible to be with, and relationships with them are a living hell. I got involved with a controlling, borderline abusive… Read more »
Here’s the NYT article I mentioned. Fascinating reading.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html
Sarah, you’re my hero for the day.
Thanks for the link, and for that astute distinction between fantasy and reality, as diverse as those may be.
As much as I found Ms. Lothian’s article interesting and entertaining, it seemed a little too intoxicated on its own conceits to be of much analytic use.
hello Sarah: I am not describing a fantasy, nor a new-agey truth, but rather a collective perception of what a man/masculine is supposed to be in this day and age–which is, frankly, a diluted version of the warrior-king archetype. I am attempting in this piece, to look at a broader picture than individual fantasy–and my point about 50 Shades becoming a run-away-hit with women, is BECAUSE it is speaking to an unmet desire from the female contingent, for a more potent and untempered masculine. Not abusive, just strong. As for your situation with an unhealthy controlling man, that is called… Read more »
Agree. @Sarah Radford.. You wrote, “My suggestion to women is that we need to stop expecting men to read out minds and talk to them about what we like sexually.” OK, but this is AFTER the relationship has commenced. What about sexual aggressiveness during the chase so to speak. After 2 or 3 dates, why can’t the man “ravish” her since she is obviously interested? Also, as I mentioned above there is still anti-social behavior present today where many women (like yourself) refuse to talk to stranger. I am not chastising you. You have expressed valid reasons for such. But,… Read more »
I’ve lost my comment twice to the auto-refresh so I’ll try to make this brief. High sales volume among women for a fictional book that handles a dom/sub relationship DOES NOT EQUAL a high female desire for the kind of relationship depicted in the book. This book got media attention that many, many, many other newly published books (by respected and talented authors, no less) simply do not get. It got this attention for the same reason Amy Chua’s “Tiger Mother” book got attention – it’s sensational! radical! controversial! And this media attention fed into sales. I’m sure some portion… Read more »
Brilliant, brilliant analysis. It’s foolish to think success in the US (semi)free market system indicates anything more then good PR campaign.
You are incorrect in your assumptions here. First, the publsher’s marketing campaign for Fifty Shades was not in anyway unique or over the top (yet many books fail to rocket like this one, in to such high sales in a short time. But more importantly, the publisher’s compaign was second to the popularity of what was already a self-published ebook book on a fast-rise through social media/word of mouth. Here, from Atlantic Monthly, excerpt, “The first volume was released as an e-book and print-on-demand paperback in May 2011 by Writers’ Coffee Shop, based in Australia, with the other two books… Read more »
“The key is the cultural collective nerve/chord the topic/content of these books struck.” Is it really? I’m struck by the fact that there have been many books and stories covering this territory, some with real no-kidding literary merit and well-drawn characters. And some that at least give the sense that some editing was done some time. Not exactly runaway hits. I find it hard to believe that the topic was that big a deal (except perhaps for the puzzlement it generated). What I noticed most about what I read in 50 Shades (I couldn’t finish the book – I could… Read more »
I revert to the premise that 50 Shades is highly entertaining fiction without being directly or even indirectly representative of the desires of the women reading it and what they want out of their own relationships. To me, that is too large a leap to make. And I didn’t say it was the book’s publishers or authors who led the charge in marketing this book; on the contrary, it more or less went viral, thanks in no small part to its original ties to the Twilight universe and the power of the Twi-hard fanbase. Without those factors, this book would… Read more »
Argh, I repeated myself, sorry. Got lost in thought.
People will not be talking about 50 shades in five years. They will be talking about the books written about it, or about the collective archetypal significance of it’s success. For one, its a badly written book. See my review. (http://www.yoganonymous.com/fifty-shades-of-holy-fck-fifty-shades-grey-el-james/)
But it’s also telegraphs a message for those who can hear: Woman are looking for men to bring a kind missing presence to the union (control and domination are just extremes of power and leadership.).
My book will be one of those, read in five years. Of the same title as this article.
sorry for the typos> jet lag
@Lori Ann..
“Woman are looking for men to bring a kind missing presence to the union (control and domination are just extremes of power and leadership.).”
Yup! You are spot on Lori Ann.
We have appearance versus reality. The reality is that far more has remained the same than has changed.
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Hear, Hear!
hello Sarah: I am not describing a fantasy, nor a new-agey truth, but rather a collective perception of what a man/masculine is supposed to be in this day and age–which is, frankly, a diluted version of the warrior-king archetype. I am attempting in this piece, to look at a broader picture than individual fantasy–and my point about 50 Shades becoming a run-away-hit with women, is BECAUSE it is speaking to an unmet desire from the female contingent, for a more potent and untempered masculine. Not abusive, just strong. As for your situation with an unhealthy controlling man, that is called… Read more »
Too many people here frightened of their own shadows. I do rape scenes with my girlfriend all the time, it’s not hard. Just fix up an arrangement whereby no means yes: means actual no. Read up on subspace and aftercare a little bit, and off you go. Enjoy! I would be careful outside of a committed relationship, though, for obvious reasons. I realize our relationship frame is different from most (sex is always default yes, her body is mine to do what I want with within a few extreme hard limits), but at the same time rape fantasy really is… Read more »
Above should read:
‘no means yes: “safeword” means actual no’.
Dom/sub relationships are a good context for the ravishing because there both parties know what is consented to before the act. Lets remind people that rough sex is not abuse, as long as both persons want it.
Too many people here frightened of their own shadows. I do rape scenes with my girlfriend all the time, it’s not hard. Just fix up an arrangement whereby no means yes: means actual no. Read up on subspace and aftercare a little bit, and off you go. Enjoy!
Nope. Not scared of shadows.
Just pointing out the obvious, that the author of this article totally misses out on the “arrangement” part, implying that it is by no means necessary for a “real man”.
Where do I say there is not need for mutual pre-agreement. But the agreement is not a not a BDSM level with safe words. It is, in the context of an existing relationship, as I say. “Don’t worry, I won’t break.” In other words, it’s okay to be primal.
The range of interpretation of my words, is amazing to me. And a lesson.
can you not use the international recognized safe word? or du you prefer to invent your own, you know like something special or private?