I don’t hold eye contact, I don’t look for more than a second and I don’t let my gaze linger. I do all these things out of respect for one simple fact.
I live in New York City where, when I walk down the street, I see literally thousands of women a month walking towards and past me. Women of all ages, shapes and sizes. The range of interactions has some variability, but 95% of the time, it works like this:
If they glance and notice I’m looking at them, they look away very quickly. What I see in that moment is someone being careful. Very very careful.
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Many of the women I glance at are intentionally not looking at me. They are avoiding all eye contact, seemingly staring into some specific spot on the street that does not contain a man’s eyes. If they glance and notice I’m looking at them, they look away very quickly. What I see in that moment is someone being careful. Very very careful.
I glance at women. I don’t look at them for more than a second or two. I never stare at them. I glance at them because they are lovely, or interesting, or fashionable, or simply in my path. I glance at them for the same reasons I glance at men: to judge their intention as they approach me, to see if they’re texting or looking, or to insure I don’t get run over.
Because I have a solid sense of who I am and what my intention is, I glance at women without the feeling of guilt or nervousness I carried as a teenager. There is nothing wrong with a glance. But to look longer at a woman you do not know? Or worse, to stare? That is a different thing. For the very same reason I do not make and hold eye contact with men (or for that matter, dogs I don’t know) I do not look overly long at women, because it suggests an intrusion. Something for which I do not have permission.
When I see any women walking down the street, avoiding all eye contact, I feel a deep sense of empathy. Accordingly, I don’t look for more than a second and I don’t let my gaze linger. I do all these things out of respect for a simple fact—women don’t feel safe. No matter how “civilized” we insist western society has become, there is still a high degree of real and present danger for women from aggressive male strangers. And if a woman is from another part of the world, the likelihood that she has faced violent and aggressive male strangers is dramatically higher.
I track men much more carefully than I do women. And for exactly the same set of reasons that women do. Because men like to project power. And some men, a very few, but enough, like to project power by verbally or physically abusing strangers.
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Whats more, many males understand how this fear of aggressive men feels.
As a child, I feared and avoided eye contact with bullying teenage boys. Junior high school was an exercise in avoiding being assaulted. My issue has never been with women. My issue is with men, who, to this day, are far more likely to be aggressive with me. I track men much more carefully than I do women. And for exactly the same set of reasons that women do. Because men like to project power. And some men, a very few, but enough, like to project power by verbally or physically abusing strangers.
And before you take that deep breath and launch into a list of the ways that men are victims of rape and physical violence from their female partners, don’t bother. I have written about that fact numerous times. I’ll write about it again right here. The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey | 2010 Summary Report. page 2 states that:
“More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.”
Yes, men face a range of risks and threats in the world. But as a man, I have never had to live in fear that if I hold eye contact for too long with a women I do not know, she will approach me and start an unwelcome conversation that could lead to abusive behavior. Why? Because on some level, I always felt I could stand my ground physically. If I had to, I could fight a woman and get away.
But being able to fend off an unwelcome advance is not a certainty for many women. The percentage of men who are abusive in their behavior on the street, in bars, at schools, or in other public places may be limited, but there are enough men out there who behave like this that there is a very real corresponding fear for women. Namely, a stranger who won’t take no for an answer. For women, it is as follows: Acknowledge a strange man in even the slightest way, get approached. Say “no thank you” and get shamed, verbally abused, or possibly physically assaulted.
As human beings, we all face a basic challenge. We have to go out into the world and communicate our availability as a potential partner, attract the attention of individuals we view as viable and not attract the attention of individuals we don’t find appealing. Doing this in the world is no easy task. It’s like trying to garden prize orchids in the middle of a rugby match.
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As human beings, we all face a basic challenge. We have to go out into the world and communicate our availability as a potential partner, attract the attention of individuals we view as viable and not attract the attention of individuals we don’t find appealing. Doing this in the world is no easy task. It’s like trying to garden prize orchids in the middle of a rugby match. And the more you signal your assets as a potential partner, the more attention you attract from persons who’s attention you are not seeking.
But a women’s effort to appeal to a prospective mate, whether that be through style of dress (yoga pants or otherwise) or public behavior is not, and should never be, an invitation for unwanted attention. If you are man in the market for a relationship, take note. The signals and the cues are simple. The rules are even simpler. Glance, do not stare. If you get a glance back. Look a bit more. If a women, says “no thanks” in any way, (and yes, that can be as simple as glancing away) move on with courtesy and respect.
The vast percentage of men are decent hearted and would never intentionally harm a soul. But some men (and women) are not. Any man who continues to approach a women who is indicating “no thank you” in stronger and stronger terms, is being abusive. And as long as there is widespread abusive behavior by a limited number of men in the world, the rest of us will all be forced to limit our social interactions with women in order to try and make the world feel a little safer. Which is a shame.
So, thanks to the jerks of the world for that. You’ve made the rest of us men have to prove on a daily basis that we are not you. (Like I wanted to spend my life undoing your abusive work.) But that’s the way it is. And men need to acknowledge that fact, both in their interactions and their political dialogues. Work for change, but acknowledge the ongoing facts of the world.
So, thanks to the jerks of the world for that. You’ve made the rest of us men have to prove on a daily basis that we are not you.
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As a person who supports a robust and honest discussion of men’s issues, I acknowledge that men face many cultural inequities and challenges. I believe that we need to insure that men enjoy equal rights in the realms of family law, victim services and other areas. I fully realize that men fall victim to rape and abuse by women. But that does not change the simple math of upper body strength and social conditioning. It is not white knight behavior to advocate for a culture of civility and non-violence toward women. It is simple common decency.
Equally, in the public dance of finding a partner, women may have to become more assertive in indicating interest. Making the first move and communicating clearly when they would like to have a conversation would go a long way to alleviate the concern that man are expected to approach women who give only the slightest nod of interest. This subtle signaling sets men up to face an endless string of rejections, unable to differentiate between the lingering glance that signals interest and the passing glance that does not.
But ultimately, it is the inequity of physical strength that is at the root of our cultures’ relationship challenges. Most men can simply overpower women. And a small percentage of men often do with terrible consequences. It is what drives some women’s anger and fuels the distorted and angry battle between the sexes. Until all of us men, every single one of us, take responsibility for our public and private behavior, all the inequities we face will remain as secondary issues, held hostage by the men among us who behave like animals instead of human beings.
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Read more by Mark Greene:
The Ugly and Violent Death of Gender Conformity
When “Check Your Male Privilege” Becomes a Bludgeon
Why Are Death Rates Rising for Middle Aged White Americans?
When Men Keep Demanding Sex From Their Partners Over and Over
How the Man Box Can Kill Our Sons Now or Decades from Now
Why Traditional Manhood is Killing Us
Why Do We Murder the Beautiful Friendships of Boys?
How America’s Culture of Shame is a Killer for Boys
The Culture of Shame: Men, Love, and Emotional Self-Amputation
The Man Box: Why Men Police and Punish Others
The Man Box: The Link Between Emotional Suppression and Male Violence
The Lack of Gentle Platonic Touch in Men’s Lives is a Killer
Touch Isolation: How Homophobia Has Robbed All Men of Touch
Boys and Self-Loathing: The Conversations That Never Took Place
The Dark Side of Women’s Requests of Progressive Men
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Read more by Mark Greene:
How the Man Box Can Kill Our Sons Now or Decades from Now
How America’s Culture of Shame is a Killer for Boys
The Culture of Shame: Men, Love, and Emotional Self-Amputation
The Man Box: Why Men Police and Punish Others
“Every time you do this, you become less free. A rat in a cage. A dog on a chain. A prisoner.”
Why Men’s Friendships Can Feel Empty
Cruelty, Perversion and the Boy Scouts: A Personal Recollection
Touch Isolation: Insisting Boys Learn Independence Creates an Isolating Trap for Men
The Man Box: The Link Between Emotional Suppression and Male Violence
The Lack of Gentle Platonic Touch in Men’s Lives is a Killer
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*Excellent article!* Thanks, Mark!
If you are receiving such negative energy it is because you are sending out negative energy. Might be you are being so ‘careful’ you are creating tension. People read energy all the time. I gaze at women a lot… follow them with a smile and energy that says ‘you are lovely’ and what I receive is a smile and often a smile with a nod. A man used to tip his hat in appreciation.
Anyone else think this article is about women who need to find peace and one man who has problems?
This advice is at odds with material on on the subject of body language that I read that states a man should not be the first to break eye contact wih a woman whom he finds attractive, this conveys submissiveness, which most women do not find attractive.
Dude, you’re reading the wrong advice. Really. Body language is important, yes, but most women I know, myself included, find it creepy and/or intimidating if a guy we don’t know doesn’t break eye contact, ie, stares. That is NOT attractive. Personally, if I have seen a guy staring I will glance back, not to see if he’s attracted, but to gauge intention – that is, decide if I will need to dissuade in more concrete methods in the near future, ie, measure threat. Is this someone I should be wary of? It is different if it’s a gentle, communal play,… Read more »
nailed it!
So, you’re essentially saying that women are causing their own harassment by the ‘vibes’ they’re sending out. Bro, take responsibility. Don’t get me wrong, I get the energy thing, but tell me how that works for 13-year old me when a middle-aged guy yells from his car about how he wants to eat me out and I have to ask my friends what that means and NO ONE KNOWS…? He stared for ages first. Really? ‘Creating tension’? When I was 15 and got followed more than once to the point where I ran into random shops and/or houses to dissuade… Read more »
Anonymous and Barry Blust: You are receiving great feedback about what’s really creepy and what’s not. Men tell other men to hold a woman’s gaze and not look away because maybe it gets them a date 1 in 1,000 times; what they’re not willing to acknowledge is that the other 999 women hate you because you made them feel uncomfortable. Also, I’d like for you both to spend some time in prison and then come back and talk to me about how women need to “find peace” with the sexual aggression of male strangers. Did you even read the article?… Read more »
Personally, I like the idea of men becoming “Herbivores” like the phenomenon which is currently giving Japan grief. Herbivores are men who, while they aren’t uninterested in sex or romantic relationships, simply express indifference to the idea. They don’t approach women, or try to stay masculine or “man up” to impress them. They just decided to stay out of that minefield altogether. They don’t do anything to actively seek out sex, but rather develop themselves and remain independent, and if the women want relationships, they have to be the ones to say something, compliment, flirt, approach, whatever. You would think… Read more »
haha, beautifully said, brother ! 🙂
*eloquently (ahh phone typing)
Little late to the party here but I only just came across GMP (long overdue) and this article. Mark I wanted to thank you not only for its content but the painstakingly careful way it is phrased. This is what I think I have been hoping to read from a male author for a long time and I just wish more men echoed these sentiments. As your average 24 y/o girl with decent dress-sense and quite long hair (the hair’s the giveaway!) I seem to get looked at in the street almost constantly and it really does feel incredibly predatory.… Read more »
As a guy… yeah… sorry. Some of us are assholes. Just out of interest, because I like to strike up conversations with people and make eye contact/say hello to people I pass on the street (who, shockingly, are often pretty girls), how do you feel about a guy just saying hello while smiling as he walks past? Does that intimidate you at all?
When I walk down the street and a guy smiles and says hi or hello, which is rare, I feel comfortable. It gives me a sense of validation that he sees me and isn’t intimidated by me. I often feel, and this depends on the area, more conservative areas tend to have this more, that when I walk down the street, mostly alone without boyfriend or friends, I see men glance at me and then quickly look away. It makes me feel uncomfortable. This is amplified when I walk towards a couple and notice the women try to distract the… Read more »
I think it depends on where you live. In NYC, where Mark lives, only people who are at least a little crazy in some way say hi to anyone on the sidewalk; however, in Kansas (where I lived before moving to NYC), it was rude *not* to say hi to people you pass on the sidewalk. As a rule of thumb: If you wouldn’t ever do or say something to a man on the street, then don’t do/say it to a woman. Audrey, where do you live? I think a lot of the disagreements about this article’s advice come from… Read more »
About eye contact, what the real problem is and what the real solution is:
http://yousowould.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/death-by-a-million-leers/
http://yousowould.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/eye-contact/
“Whatever you do, do not look away and then keep looking back. Do NOT try to look out the side of your eye without being noticed. You will look sleazy and creepy.” Are you kidding me? It’s WAY creepier when a guy holds eye contact and stares at me than when he looks at me and looks away. The latter behavior suggests he finds me attractive but doesn’t want to be intrusive. The former behavior implies entitlement to my attention and aggression. Some advice: Don’t take advice about what’s creepy or not from a blog that admits to “narcissistic musings.”… Read more »
The thing I’ve learned about looking at women is that when I reject my sexuality when looking at them, they get creeped out. But when I own it fully and appreciate a woman in her fullness from a deeply rooted place, including heart and balls in my attention, women open up like flowers to the morning sun. If a man has a lot of experience with women being uncomfortable with his attention, my experience suggests it is a sign he’s not fully owning his sexual attraction to the opposite sex. It’s an awkward place to be culturally when many men… Read more »
🙂
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Depending on a variety of things, it can be absolutely fine to GAZE at a woman. Stare has such an obviously negative connotation, it’s hard not to conjure the mental image of some drooling predator. I personally feel that if I’m in a good mood, feeling attractive, smiling, and happen to be looking at a woman, attractive or not, I’ll normally get a positive reaction. It doesn’t need to be an advance. It doesn’t need to be ogling. The fact that this isn’t normally well received really speaks volumes about… Read more »
Does anyone find it creepy to look at others whom do not know you are looking, to study their body language to better teach yourself how humans interact?
Hi Mark Green
Thank you for your patience and deep understanding of women.
I think you know what is going on here……
I appreciated the thoughtful tone of this column. It showed remarkable insight into the vulnerabilities experienced by women in North American societies. I also found the comments interesting. For me, the bottom line is that non-verbal communication is a huge component of our interactions and that non-verbal communication can be interpreted in many ways. A smile may mean “I like your comment and it makes me feel good”, but it can also mean “If I smile at you, maybe you won’t get upset at me and won’t hurt me”. It can signal appreciation or appeasement – and likely many other… Read more »
Great article overall, especially with respect to view on violence, etc. It is a mostly well-written piece. A few personal observations: If a woman in public (or anywhere else) makes eye contact with me, I will smile, and hold eye contact until she breaks it. Eye contact is a key human mating signal. Not reciprocating eye contact is definitely a social faux paus that telegraphs a lot of insecurity. Spend much time in sales, you’ll get this concept quickly. Also, women who are dressed provocatively are generally seeking some kind of visual attention, and I have no problem giving it… Read more »
“It’s really a social skill that can be developed over time through observation and experimentation. It’s unfortunate that many men are cowed by PCism into being milquetoast social wallflowers. ”
Good point, it’d be nice to see this shown in a damn doco or something and show it to highschool students lol. I didn’t learn enough of this and I’ve cowed to PCism and it leaves me quite nervous to even look at a woman incase she feels uncomfy. I definitely notice this amongst other guys I know too.
Forgive me for bringing in a woman experience from a dangerous situation in a street in London. It is interesting . I have followed this debate with interest in a hope to understand men better. Some of the discussions themes has been if we can see others intent, read the body language of strangers on the street. Here is the interview in The Guardian with the woman that went up and spoke to killers in London yesterday. She trusted her ability to do exactly that. And she is still alive. Here is her words: “I was not scared because he… Read more »
She may have prevented a situation getting worse for people around. Just saw this on the news like 5 minutes ago, my jaw hit the floor.
Archy
Maybe she had what we here call ” protection by an angel”
Listen to her. She is respectful to both men and even ask if she can do anything for them.
Video of the interview:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2013/may/23/woman-confronted-alleged-woolwich-attacker-video
“Yes, men face a range of risks and threats in the world. But as a man, I have never had to live in fear that if I hold eye contact for too long with a women I do not know, she will approach me and start an unwelcome conversation that could lead to abusive behavior. Why? Because on some level, I always felt I could stand my ground physically. If I had to, I could fight a woman and get away.” Speak for yourself. I am 6’6, 300lbs and I fear it. If she starts up on you and others… Read more »
“But that does not change the simple math of upper body strength and social conditioning. It is not white knight behavior to advocate for a culture of civility and non-violence toward women. It is simple common decency.” I think that is the key point put nicely and succinctly. (Although I firmly believe chivalry is underrated as a virtue. And despite the screeching of some harridans I still support its practice.) An “old fashioned” concept that needs to be firmly supported – “common decency”. Respect for the integrity and welfare of others and the willingness to help in defense of those… Read more »
OKAY folks. I gotta go. Its been a good conversation….
Mr. Greene,
Do you think staring is bad in itself or is it only bad if the person you are staring at finds out about it?
This is actually a complex question. Because it is a question of context. Is it in public? Is your young son watching you do it? Are you doing through a rifle scope? You see what I mean? But basically, on a simple level, staring is bad when the person finds out about it. That being said, you should probably get on with your day at some point.
Yes, in public. Sometimes the person being viewed will not realize that they are being stared at for a variety of reasons. The person being viewed cannot see the staring person from his/her vantage point. The staring person might be in a sitting or repose position (on a subway or bus) and has a plausible reason to stay in a stationary position. The staring person may have sunglasses or some eye concealing garment so that the person being stared cannot tell where the staring person’s eyes are focusing. Etc.
Well, now its just sounding creepy. Again, its context. If you look for a few moments longer because the person is not aware. No problem. If you’re camped out oogling people, creepy.
If this is all in public, it is no different than what anyone else may momentarily see who passes by. The only difference is the length of time for the observance.
And as long as they don’t find out, there is no problem. How can somebody be creeped out by something that he/she never knows about?
You misunderstand me. I’m creeped out. Right now. By the hypothetical person you are describing because it sounds like he’s arrived with the intention of setting himself up to stare at strangers.
It’s not as if you have ever encountered this hypothetical staring stranger in real life, so far as you know. And this hypothetical staring stranger would not possess some aggregate average strength superiority over you. And as for people who set themselves up with the intention of staring at strangers, what do you think those solitary people sitting on park benches are all doing?
Megalodon, Now you and I are just focusing on a single word. Staring. Wikipedia defines it this way: “Staring is a prolonged gaze or fixed look. In staring, one object or person is the continual focus of visual interest, for an amount of time. Staring can be interpreted as being either hostile, or the result of intense concentration or affection. Staring behaviour can be considered a form of aggression, or an invasion of an individual’s privacy. ” Its this kind of minute back and forth that indicative of the conversations I have with folks who come back to post again… Read more »
You are saying that the harm of staring lies in the fact that the person who is being stared at finds out about it. So I am asking you about deliberate voyeurs who stare and leer at people in public without being detected because they are good at stealth. If their targets do not find out about the staring, have these voyeurs avoided committing the harm you warn men not to commit? Or is their staring and leering still bad regardless of whether or not their targets find out about it?
That is what I was driving at.
As long as you keep responding.
I stared once at a couple at a fence from a car waiting for someone to hurry the F up so we could go about our day. Why? Because I was spotting each individual body language indicating their desire for each other, trying to hone my skills to spot the relationship to each other. Is this creepy? When I stare, I am learning. Another time I’ve had multiple glances is when I saw a father raise his voice and his kids instantly changed behaviour, to me I felt an abusive tone to it reminding me of my past. I kept… Read more »
And so is the time honored practice of “girl watching” creepy? I would argue that there is a clear difference between “enjoying the scenery” and creepy. And lets face it some women just have that “something” that makes them very compelling as individuals, and it is not always purely a physical thing. Case in point, as a young salesman of about 22 I was approached by a woman 30 years or so my senior to ask for directions. There was just something so compelling about her that about all I could do was mumble out an answer to her question… Read more »
Sigh. WP… My friend. Thank you for taking SUCH a deep and abiding interest in the details of this conversation. But I think you might want to stop looking for the chinks in my armor here as its begging to seem a bit repetitive. There is no case that can be made that can not be picked apart at the edges. Write an article and post it. I’ll be happy to stop by and disassemble it for you over the course of a week or so. It isn’t hard to do. My central point is clear and has been substituted… Read more »
Hi Mark, I’m really not trying to pick at you – honest. I am just enjoying the exploration of ideas and concepts. Sometimes that requires provoking or at least examining all facets of an idea from more than one viewpoint. And intellectual honesty requires it. What you seem to perceive as my looking for chinks in your armor is nothing more that probing at the boundaries of the concept to better define it. I will admit that I was having a little fun with the “girl watching” comment and may have been “tugging your whiskers” just a little bit However,… Read more »
Mark, something about this article just feels spectacularly wrong, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. It feels like you are carrying every man’s guilt, and encouraging us to do the same. Personally, I don’t think that’s healthy. Somewhere between giving every pretty girl a visual undressing, and pretending to go through the world like a monk, is a reality we can live with.
I don’t go through life as a monk. In the context of on the street only, I seek to give women I do not know and have never met their space unless and until they indicate otherwise. I do glance/look, I just don’t stare and I don’t intrude. That is a far cry from being a monk. As for taking on every man’s guilt that is not what I’m doing. What I’m doing is acknowledging a very real issue in the world. Namely, that women JUSTIFIABLY feel harassed a lot of the time. I think of it as being a… Read more »
I never stare at, try to flirt with, or check out women. Its not because I have an obligation to make women feel safe. Women’s feeling of safety is a secondary concern to me, as a man. I am more concerned about my own self-respect. At a young age, I was quick and wise to realize that my attention was, for the most part, unwanted. One should get the point when they get sneers of disgust, cold indifference and condescending looks. But I also understand that its never an act that is wrong in itself. It’s who does it that… Read more »
We have all been in that place where our attention is “not wanted.” That is part of the challenge of growing up. How to navigate all that rejection. I agree. Its a mess. But the fact is, everyone faces it to some degree at some point in their lives. Including the women you describe as sneering. As for a man’s attention being wanted or unwanted, yes that is central to this. Specifically, men who won’t take no for an answer. The key moments happen in the actions and responses that take place. There are reverse versions of this in which… Read more »
I do my share of looking, although I don’t think I stare. I’ve never said more than “hi” to a woman on the street. From my perspective, the world might be a better place if no one approached anyone on the street. Might not. It seems that some men have an inordinate need to preserve this type of approach. In that sense, I kind of agree with Iben. This is typically a pretty ineffective way to go, and men investing in other ways of meeting women might be better off. I also get that a few men who actually traumatize… Read more »
Mark But on average, men are far more powerful then women. Which leaves more women feeling powerless and frightened when men cross their safe boundaries and create uncertainty. I’m betting 8 out of 10 times when a woman doesn’t like a man staring or checking her out its simply because his attention is unwanted, she isn’t interested, doesn’t want to be bothered, feels annoyed, or he isn’t according to her taste; rather than that she feels threatened or intimated by his physical strength. The former set of reasons is good enough for me. You are trying to make the ‘physical… Read more »
For what it’s worth there is an extreme strength imbalance between me and most men, too–by an order of some magnitude–and they don’t seem to be particularly scared of me. Of course, neither do most women. But I’m also an “easy listening” sort of guy and go out of my way to avoid stressful situations and so I don’t interact with a lot of randoms.
I get the feeling that we are talking past each other and conflating two distinct issues: 1. Men looking and admiring without staring. 2. Men who force themselves into a woman’s personal space even after she has expressly told them she does not want them there. Wolfwhistling, pushing into her personal space, hanging around after she’s asked you to leave her alone, touching her, pulling up in your car next to her and opening your car door: those all fall into category #2 and yes those are invasive and inappropriate; they are also drastically different then “looking” and something that… Read more »
Many commenters here are dismissing the need for taking this level of care in our human interactions. As if it eliminates any possibility of connection in the world. It does not. This level of care will increase the connectivity, because it will create more safe spaces for people. I have often enjoyed that sense of being part of the human river in cities like New York. But it is very important to acknowledge that human rivers are also a place where groping and harassment run amok. Right now, young girls, age 10 and younger are looking away while grown men… Read more »
I think what your missing is the difference between the man’s intent and the woman’s perception. I don’t think anyone here denies that a man owns his intent. You’re saying (at least my interpretation of what you’re saying) that men need to own the woman’s perception of his intent and that’s where most people are disagreeing with you. If a man has had bad experiences with a few women and decides that he just won’t deal with them any longer and forgo all future relationships because all women or at least enough women will treat him poorly, most feminists would… Read more »
No one here doubts that bad things happen to people in public all the time, but who is this piece written for? Do you think there’s a significant overlap between the type of men that would drop his pants in public and the GMP readership? Because if you do, it’s insulting, and I’m probably visiting the wrong website. I just refuse to accept the idea that readers of this site are all latent rapists or violent criminals. We’re just normal guys who are striving to be or have already become GOOD MEN. And here’s the thing about the intimidation factor.… Read more »
Thanks for your comments DD.
In response, two things:
One. This article has over 900 shares on Facebook. It is not written AT GMP readers. It is written TO the world at large from the GMP community. The article and the comments here reflect on this community to the world at large..
Secondly, I agree with you that people should learn to approach people without being intimidating. But the first step is to judge when approaching is a good idea at all.
I didn’t know about the sharing thing, but I still don’t think it changes my argument. Most of the genuinely good guys I know have been hearing this message, or ones like it, for years. They are FAR less inclined to approach random women anywhere because of fear of putting them on the defensive, leaving the uncaring assholes to run free. It just reads too much like another case of the right message being sent to the wrong men. If public harassment of women is such a big problem in NYC, then maybe an article of knowing how to spot… Read more »
“They are FAR less inclined to approach random women anywhere because of fear of putting them on the defensive, leaving the uncaring assholes to run free.”
Indeed, I don’t approach women usually because of this fear they will be uncomfy no matter what. To approach you have to risk making them uncomfy because they may be the person who is uncomfy at ANYONE approaching and I don’t want to make anyone uncomfy.
Secondly, I agree with you that people should learn to approach people without being intimidating. But the first step is to judge when approaching is a good idea at all. If the first rule is “Don’t look more than a second or two,” that tends to render any further tips about how to approach moot. From the article: When I see any women walking down the street, avoiding all eye contact, I feel a deep sense of empathy. Accordingly, I don’t look for more than a second and I don’t let my gaze linger. I believe your empathy and good… Read more »
I don’t like to carry children who are only a few weeks old. A friend asked me if I wanted to hold her baby and I refused saying that she was too small and I was afraid I wouldn’t support her head right or something. She said, “You won’t break her” and handed her to me. I was so nervous holding her that I didn’t even move until she took her back.
I think Mark’s advice is similar to this. Women are fragile. If men aren’t careful, we’ll accidentally break them. That thought process effectively paralyzes you.
Please keep in mind, John, I talking about women who are total strangers on the street. I’m not even talking about women in bars or at parties. I’m talking about women who have no choice but to be on the street getting from point A to point B. I’m not saying they are fragile. Some of them could kick my ass. What I’m saying is they deserve their privacy if they indicate that is what they want. So many men are talking about this as a limitation issue on them. But what that frame sounds like to me is really… Read more »
Hi Mark Green
You write:
“What I’m saying is they deserve their privacy if they indicate that is what they want.
So many men are talking about this as a limitation issue on them. ”
It looks like that doesn’t it. A limitation issue.
Is it possible this has something with to do with some men’s need to control women’s sexuality?
I am not saying all men want to control women’s sexuality, but is a fact this happens frequently in many cultures.
I don’t see it as a “me, me, me” thing at all. I just think your entire premise is flawed. Asking people, especially law-abiding, decent men to further disengage from society isn’t doing anything to make the world safer. In my belief and experience, just the opposite is happening. Besides, most of us are describing experiences that run completely counter to what you describe. It wasn’t more than a generation ago the ability to maintain eye contact with strangers was seen as a sign of maturity, and now I’m supposed to believe it’s universally threatening or intimidating. Are we really… Read more »
Dear DD.
Thanks again for your comments but seriously,…you doubt I can tell from body language whether a woman wants to be interrupted? If there was any bigger sign post it would be a billboard.
Have you read the comments of the women who were here before a lot of men with (not) surprisingly similar agendas piled on? Now, no one’s talking here but one small but very vocal segment of the population. That should be your first clue that you’re not speaking for the world at large.
There are about a thousand times a day, as a man, that I don’t want to be interrupted when I’m in public. But if someone approaches me, for any reason, I’m going to my best to give them at least the courtesy of response and as much engagement as I can muster. A lot of the time it’s trivial things: gregarious peoples who cannot stand silence; someone I kind-of know but do not who wants to tell me all about their x, y or z. Every once in awhile, I get approached by women I have no interest in when… Read more »
Thanks for your post Crow. I will say this. When I hear someone say that all men are potential rapists I’m inclined to view that person as stark raving bat shit crazy.
“Thanks for your post Crow. I will say this. When I hear someone say that all men are potential rapists I’m inclined to view that person as stark raving bat shit crazy.” Your article is playing into it a bit though even if you don’t intend it. Why the hell aren’t we teaching women to be more confident and stop scaring the shit out of them? How the hell are they going to be confident if they are so caught up in the adult version of stranger danger and we constantly tell them shit like “upper body strength” and women… Read more »
Hey Mark, I wanted to bring up, as well that as you say “When I hear someone say that all men are potential rapists I’m inclined to view that person as stark raving bat shit crazy”, that is, I think, the more rational response. However, I suspect that some of the pushback is the insidious base of the conversation that, through a thousand little things, centers all of these sorts of conversations on emotional markers like “fear”. It isn’t what is actually said as much as this undercurrent within any conversation concerning relations between (simply speaking) men and women. There… Read more »
I read the comments, and I definitely “get” it; but our experiences are worlds apart. I don’t have any skin in this game; my experience of the world won’t be impacted one bit by anything written here. I’m just asking you and anyone reading to consider another perspective on this. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Okay DD. Happy to agree to disagree. Thanks for a civil and thoughtful conversation.
Really enjoyed your perspectives here, DD. Have nothing to add except that if more people saw the world your way, I would like it so much more. All this assuming people are dangerous until the opposite is proven stuff is a tragedy and reflective of the level of trauma and alienation present in society. I also consider it a low level of consciousness that needs to be challenged. You did that very well indeed!
PS! I write that post having just felt some fear walking past two big, hooded men on a dark street. But instead of buying into it, I greeted them. They smiled at me and said hello back. I could’ve made up a huge story about these men and written a blog post about how the world has become a dangerous place.
Don’t all people “deserve their privacy”? Are female persons the only people that “deserve their privacy”? And does this injunction only apply to male persons, due to the aggregate average physical strength difference between males and females?
We should probably presume that all people want privacy as our default assumption, right? Unless people need to wear signs saying “DO NOT INTERACT WITH ME.”
I think some guys are looking at this as a limitation issue because they are being singled out. I believe you said in one of your previous comments something like we should do this or abstain from that because it’s good manners. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. I think that making men looking at women the focus instead of we shouldn’t make people uncomfortable or disrupt a person’s day is what is causing the backlash. So when my niece and nephew were small and I’d watch them, I would get strangers inquiring about them or making unsolicited comments.… Read more »
I think you have basically hit the nail on the head (to use a cliche’). Underlying the entire discussion is the implied, but unstated, premise that if a man looks he is up to no good or in some way intending harm to the person being “stared” at. Good manners aside – (although I do agree that it is simply rude to stare at someone else, female OR male) I think this has become a charged topic because of that above underlying, but unspoken, premise. This also carries the assumption that the external environment, even when it is not the… Read more »
Mark I’m not saying they are fragile. Some of them could kick my ass. What I’m saying is they deserve their privacy if they indicate that is what they want. So why the heck do you make it a “men being physically stronger” issue when its simply about unwanted attention for the most part? Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? When I said that men should be consciously aware whether their attention to women is welcome or not and act accordingly, and this alone is a good enough behavioral model for men, You disagreed with me and… Read more »
I want you to be sensitive to the fact that a SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE of woman are subject to harassment and rape on an ongoing basis. You need to LISTEN to what I’m ACTUALLY saying and stop trying to win some fictional debate based on simplistic language that you are inserting into my intent. I am 6 feet tall and can kick people’s asses too, just like the hypothetical woman I mentioned above. But I still feel fear around men I don’t know if they enter my personal space for unclear reasons. It is my first response. That does not make… Read more »
Hi Marcus, Let me reiterate. The universe of women I am talking about are those that are both strangers and on the public streets. This is a subset of the full range of women in the world that we as men interact with. Of that subset, I don’t need or require conversation with any of them. Eliciting a wink or smile from them is not central to any needs or desires tied to my survival. I do not need a wink or a nod from them to prove that I have their passing guy on the street seal of approval.… Read more »
🙂
Where is God in all of this ? A women with a confident relationship with God can walk with her head up smiling cheerfully and without fear. Sure, bad things happen to God-fearing people, but only according to His purpose, so who can argue with the Creator ? As God-fearing men, we can be polite and warm with a smile or nod to a woman, without feeling like we’re stalking her. She may need help, or just may need to know that not all men are psycopaths, but some have found the love that all people secretly crave. This may… Read more »
So if you get raped, it’s part of God’s plan and you shouldn’t argue with it?
Sterling thinking there.
Oirish – what if that were true ? Could you handle it ? A LOT of people get treated like that and a lot worse whether they are engaging someone else’s attention or not. It happens everywhere (not saying it should) but by just imploring people to stop hasn’t worked for 6,000 years so far.
What I’m saying is, better to trust in something strong and true, which fights off evil by it’s very nature, but also gives strength to deal with challenges.
My sacred book, the book of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, says that the Earth is more than 6000 years old. It’s the true word, because it says it is, and that’s totally airtight reasoning. Flying Spaghetti Monster Akbar.
One thing I will say is that I’ve occasionally told women I’ve met on the street or in coffee shops or whatnot that they are beautiful. I’ve never had a less-than-appreciative reaction. I’ve also never used it as a pick-up line. A simple”I just want you to know you are incredibly beautiful,” always seems to make a woman smile. That’s just my experience.
Ben
Why cant you be indifferent to them just as women are indifferent to men?
I suppose I am not by nature an indifferent person.
They may also be smiling because it’s what a person has been taught to do when someone tells them that. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t uncomfortable. I can tell you that I most often smile if someone tells me that, as a stranger in a public place, but inside I”m thinking, “Please go away, I’m so uncomfortable right now.”
I re-read the article (for about the fifth time), this time scouring it for any guidelines on what might constitute a positive response by a looked-upon woman, a sign of that rare “permission” to keep looking. Nearly all of the reactions described, though, either in his experience or what he thinks men should expect from women, are about fear and threats, and wanting it to stop. He (Mark) doesn’t even mention the possibility of a smile, sincere or otherwise. The most positive response that gets any mention is: If you get a glance back. Look a bit more. Based on… Read more »
You’re saying that what looks like permission, isn’t permission. Or even if it is, it so closely resembles non-permission that it should be treated as such to be safe. Well, there’s the rub. Consent can never be definitely proven and non-consent can never be definitively disproven. Any ostensible affirmative signal or communication could possibly be false, invalid, or vitiated. This applies whether it is a smile, a nod, a verbal “yes” or a written “yes.” A man might take a woman’s smile as a signal that his interaction is welcome, but she might only be smiling because she is nervous… Read more »
Nervous smiles look different. Genuine smiles have lil eye creases, nervous smiles I don’t believe do this and can be lopsided. The rest of their body language will also tell you a lot. Genuinely happy/smiling women will have a looser body and not as stiff as someone who is nervous, the pupils will also dilate (could also be attraction though so you need to be aware of the other body language). “You can differentiate real smiles from fake ones by the presence of characteristic wrinkles around the eyes. Lip corners are pulled up and the muscles around the eyes are… Read more »
More evidence that women hate compliments until long after you’ve consummated a relationship with them.
Just don’t do it. It’s bad form for myriad reasons.
I suppose I’ll just rely on firsthand evidence from my own life. I love giving and receiving compliments, and I’ve yet to see any compelling reason I shouldn’t continue the practice.
I think we may be talking about different scenarios, Joanna, and that’s my fault for not being clear. I’m not exactly talking about approaching complete strangers I’ve never spoken to before, but rather people with whom I’ve already established a friendly rapport, even if that is as simple as me feeling a gaze, looking toward the gaze, and seeing a smiling face turned in my direction. That said, I generally trust the authenticity of strangers unless I have a reason not to, and I think most people say what they mean and mean what they say. Incidentally, a few weeks… Read more »
That sounds like one hell of a guy. Bringing appreciation of a bro without fearing that it would be taken the wrong way.
I agree with you, Joanna. When men I don’t know give me compliments in the street I smile and say thank you… and then hurry away. It makes me uncomfortable and I keep things nice as I beat a hasty retreat. It also doesn’t really hold much weight, because I don’t know the person or their intentions. I find it creepy and superficial.
Why be indifferent? A man should cower from extending his appreciation on the off chance the woman will find it “uncomfortable” or even offensive? A woman is not such a fragile creature that a man should be concerned how she will accept a glance or compliment. Her reaction is her right or “cross to bear;.” not mine. I would not consciously make a woman uncomfortable, but I am entitled to assume that the beautiful clothes, well-manicured nails, perfect grooming and expensive cologne are applied for a reason. I agree with Ben; my experience is been overwhelmingly positive with sincere compliments.… Read more »
Well said, brother!
I agree with Marlin. I think being uncomfortable over a compliment is more an issue of self esteem on the female’s part, rather than anything to do with the male’s intentions. I hate this assumption that all women walk around in a heightened state of fear 24/7. Not all of us do. It’s possible to be aware of yourself and your surroundings without being afraid. If a man wants to come up to me and pay me a compliment, I will happily accept that compliment, whether I have any interest in getting to know him further or not.
It’s more than an ‘off chance’… and I’m pretty sure the entire article explained why a woman interpreting compliments a certain way is due to jerks ruining it for the rest of you, not ‘her dysfunction’. Did you even read it?
As for the smiling thing for consent… i’d argue a prolonged smile and repeated glances is a pretty good indication. A perfunctory grimace that doesn’t reach the eyes is a bad indication. Hopefully the difference isn’t too subtle.
Do you think smiling always indicates genuine positive emotions on the part of the smiling person? Have you never smiled or grinned when you were embarrassed or flustered?
And what do you get out of telling a stranger that she’s beautiful? A smile and thank you while she’s thinking, please don’t ask me out, please don’t stay, please don’t chat me up. A beautiful woman simply got lucky by birth, it has nothing to do with her as a person. My friend gets told she beautiful almost every day, sometimes multiple times a day. She smiles and says thank you then worries constantly about how she looks, it’s warped her mind and she has no self esteem. She spends hours each day on hair, make up and clothes… Read more »
I expect nothing. I usually get nothing except the satisfaction of knowing I have helped another person smile. I like helping people smile. When somebody–man or woman–compliments me on my appearance I smile, and I am genuinely flattered. I try and play it forward. Karma. I suppose I expect Karma.
I personally have always loved being told this by strangers. These aren’t surprise compliments from a back alleyway, they’ve almost always been in passing, at the end of a short exchange (excuse me! I didn’t see you!), or yes, even from across the street. I believe I have received these compliments not because I’m necessarily extremely beautiful- at least in the conventional aspect of the term- but because I’ve been conditioned to make eye contact with and smile at the strangers I meet. A social glance is not always a cue for a relationship: it may just be the practice… Read more »
Thank you, Anna, for this: “I personally have always loved being told this by strangers. These aren’t surprise compliments from a back alleyway, they’ve almost always been in passing, at the end of a short exchange (excuse me! I didn’t see you!), or yes, even from across the street. I believe I have received these compliments not because I’m necessarily extremely beautiful- at least in the conventional aspect of the term- but because I’ve been conditioned to make eye contact with and smile at the strangers I meet. A social glance is not always a cue for a relationship: it… Read more »
I wholeheartedly agree with Anna. Kudos to you for expressing this so much better than I could. I have never been upset by a compliment.
What the hell. Never tell strangers that they are beautiful or handsome. I dont care if you dont have any other motives, its super creepy.
You’ve seen too many movies.
Ben,
He’s right. It is super creepy. LOL
Nope Mark, Ben is correct. Are you imputing a personal creepy motive to others?
Can’t we both be right? It really depends on who is hearing about this? You, apparently, are okay with someone ogling, say, your mother or your daughter. I am not (okay with them ogling your mother or daughter). Let’s agree to disagree, yes?
Can you define ogling? I’ve had people accuse others of ogling for a half second look! Look at a woman’s chest for ANY period of time = ogling. If someone looked at my mother or my future daughter for a tiny amount of time I wouldn’t worry, if they stare I will start to figure out if they are just attracted or more sinister. If my daughter is young I may have a quiet word with them saying she is too young. One of the tough issues for instance with youth and being looked at is in the teenage years,… Read more »
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or playful, Mark. If you’re just being playful, cool. If you’re conflating giving a compliment with ogling, I hope it’s unintentional. If not, well, that is some creepy-ass shee-ite. And very American of you.
Ben
Completely your choice to be uncomfortable, Ben, but I’m quite serious.
Strike up a casual conversation. Body language will let you know immediately if she does not want to be bothered. If she says something self-deprecating then she is giving you an opening to pay her a complement. If you leap in before that you risk creeping her out.
We love men like Ben! No harm done. Win win 🙂
and my experience is that random men who would say that to me, especially with words close to or exactly like those, would make me feel insanely creeped out.
just because they do not have a visible reaction does not mean there isn’t one
furthermore, it is not as if women are toiling in public awaiting a man’s approval to validate their precarious sense of being beautiful or something.
you can neither guarantee that that sort of untoward attention is not making women feel uncomfortable, so why get on the internet and talk like you can
I’ve come to believe that the only difference between men and women is that women are a lot more selective and find very few men physically attractive than vice versa. That is the root of all the differences we observe in the behaviors of men and women. When a man is very attractive. Women “become just like men” in their responses and behaviors – They stare, check him out, tend to be overtly aware of his presence, smile at him, try to flirt with him and perhaps want to say hi or have a conversation going, get his number and… Read more »
Hahaha… Once again you hit the nail on the head my friend. Every time I read an article like this I think, too borrow from TLP, “If you’re reading it, then it’s for you.” I ALWAYS try to look people in the eye while walking down the street or in some other public space, and have on more than one occasion had it lead to a flirty glance, a quick chat, a date, or even a couple of near instant make-outs with girls. I don’t know/think its intentional, but much of the advice advocated here seems destined to land men… Read more »
I don’t think the rules are simple. Glancing at a woman doesn’t always give you an indication of her approachability. What if she’s not currently looking at you so doesn’t see your glance? What if you’re on the bus and a woman glances in your direction every 10 minutes or so? Is she just looking out the window on your side? Is she interested in you or is she nervous because she can hear Def Leppard’s Stagefright seeping from your headphones and your butt fits in the seat, but to get your upper body to they’d need to cut your… Read more »
I think of this in terms of amoral practicalities. Staring at a woman will never really give you what you want. In most cases it will be counterproductive. You will get a lot more of what you want by using more of your brain and less of your eyes. It’s incredibly useful to use your peripheral vision, your short-term memory, your long-term memory, and your imagination. I prefer to glance a few times, commit what I see to memory, and fantasize on my own time. You don’t have to be looking directly at someone to visualize her with her clothes… Read more »
Mark Greene I acknowledge that men face many cultural inequities and challenges In the public dance of finding a partner, women may have to become more assertive in indicating interest…..Making the first move and communicating clearly … But ultimately, it is the inequity of physical strength that is at the root of our cultures’ relationship challenges. I have a friend. He is the hot studly type. Tall, good looking and has an imposing physique. He can easily overpower any woman. He gets a lot of stares, smiles and clear signals of interest from strange women almost everywhere he goes. Meanwhile… Read more »
I think there is certainly validity in what you say Jay. There is no doubt that fear, for some women, is the most prominent, but as you also imply, a good portion could also be the “unwanted” attention. We can all safely agree that wanted attention is never an issue.
Mark focuses on the emotion of fear, in a classically protective manner, bordering on mildly patriarchal 🙂
I’m predicting Google Glass will turn these micro-aggressions into milli-aggressions – that’s bigger for those not familiar with scientific notation.
“but your presumption that everything can be traced to men being physically stronger than women is overtly simplistic and misleading.”
Agreed. Even in terms of physical violence, greater size and strength is not always decisive. Bigger opponent also means bigger targets. Not sure how bigger muscles will help you when you’re struck in the throat, jabbed in the eyes, or kicked in the scrotum. Not to mention the equalizing power of weaponry….
The fundamental premises underlying this guide are: * Women are afraid of men. * Men are threatening. * An individual man, regardless of his history or intentions, should always limit the duration of his glances to compensate for those truths. Anything else is a threatening intrusion. Rather than argue against that, I’ll share a couple of quotes that stick out in my memory from my early days at GMP, when I was struck by how different this site felt from most “men’s sites”: There was this one: Presuming guilt in males is not good for males and it is not… Read more »
That was up to Lisa to make those decisions, though. I don’t think she would say that men leering at her should continue simply because she’s learned not to walk around afraid all the time. I don’t walk around afraid all the time, but I have a very strong sense of my vulnerability. Certainly many men understand that, too, if they live in dangerous areas or are part of a group of people who suffer stranger violence. A gay man was just shot in killed in the Village of all places, for holding his partner’s hand. It’s not just women.… Read more »
Thanks Marcus. That was a helpful summary of my intent. In the case of total strangers on the street, yes. In a bar? A little less so as the context is more intentionally social. In a party at a friends house? Maybe even less so. Because a woman can enter a bar or party or she can choose not to. But the street is unavoidable for all of us. There are degrees to this. But you knew that, right?
You’re welcome, though I don’t see how either of those quotes remotely summarizes your intent. In the case of total strangers on the street, yes. In a bar? A little less so as the context is more intentionally social. Yes what? A little less what? I didn’t ask a question and you haven’t said what you’re affirming here, so I’m lost. There are degrees to this. But you knew that, right? I’ll go with “yes” on this one, assuming by “this” you mean something about how and how long men look at women. It’s heartening to see you acknowledge that… Read more »
Hi Marcus This is the best comment on this article . Well said Marcus. And one more thing. How about age? Same rules for any age? No. Men and women sometimes feel invisible when they are 50+ 60+ 70+ 80+ 90+……. And it can feel nice to be noticed ,whether the man is in bicycling shorts or the woman simply out shopping. In my country the culture is for everyone to sit in cafees on the pavement when the spring and summer comes. And we ALL look. Men and women look at the busy life in the street, how we… Read more »
Men and women sometimes feel invisible when they are 50+ 60+ 70+ 80+ 90+……. it can feel nice to be noticed , Most men are also invisible in their youth…atleast where I live. Imagine what a woman begins to experience after she is 55 years old – the cold indifference of and the invisibility to the opposite sex in public – is what a man goes through all his life even when he is young. Its good that there are women like you who acknowledge that being looked at, stared at, checked out etc is validating despite being bothersome sometimes.… Read more »
Hi Iben, I appreciate your post about the closeness of “human bath”. I have often enjoyed that sense of being part of the human river in cities like New York. But it is very important to acknowledge that human rivers are also a place where groping and harassment run amok. Right now, young girls, age 10 and younger are looking away while grown men expose themselves on busses in some cities in India. I know this because I am married to a woman from India. I have heard this story told over and over again. Women are being groped and… Read more »
Mark
Is it possible to have this discussion making a distinction between groping, fondling, passing lewd comments, wolf-whistling, intimidating, on one hand AND ‘checking someone out’ on the other?
Exactly, Tim. Whenever the conversation of “looking” comes up it always gets conflated with unwanted approaches; “anti-male gazers” assume that unwanted approaches are the inevitable conclusion to “looking.” They’re not. Looking is a different activity from approaching and while looking proceeds approaching, approaching is not an inevitable result of looking. Also we should distinguish between unwanted approaches and rude approaches. Someone you’re not interested in approached you? Sorry get over it, you live in society and you’re out in public where other people exist – surprise you may end up interacting with another human being. None of us were born… Read more »