Why the conversation about the changing roles of men is so important.
—
This took place as part of our regular Friday afternoon conference calls, open to contributors and premium members of The Good Men Project.
Lisa Hickey: I think that the conversation about what it means to be a man in the 21st century is one of the most important conversations on the planet. Of course, being the CEO, it is actually my job to believe this is the most important conversation on this planet.
But be that as it may—the reason I think it is so important is because of dynamics that we talked about last week, when we talked about racism and the man-box. That is, it’s not JUST racism that is the problem, it’s racism + gender. And part of the reason those are interconnected is because racism has historically been used as an economic tool, and men have been historically in charge of the economic system.
So I’d like to talk about economics as they relate to men on this call. There are two parts to this—-the first is the idea that men, as individuals, are pressured to become a financial success. And so I’d love to hear your individual stories of how you either felt you were pressured, as a man, to be an economic success. Or perhaps you never felt like you had that pressure, and I’d like to hear why you think that is. But before you say the word “never”, I’d like you to think about this:
— Did you ever feel pressure to work and earn money to support your kids, or other family members, or people other than yourself.
— Did you ever feel pressure to be the “provider” of the family? If you were a stay at home dad, do you feel as if this is only a temporary thing, and at some point you will go back and be a valuable part of the workforce.
— Did you ever feel pressure to pay when you went out on a date? Where did you think that pressure came from?
— Did you every feel like it would affect a part of your very identity if you were laid off or fired?
–Conversely, did you ever feel competitive when you were in the workplace, that salary increases were a game you had to win, or did you feel you had to “beat” the other guy for the promotion? Have you felt that salaries are a zero-sum game, that there is a fixed amount of money, that in order for one person to win another has to lose?
And so that is looking at the problem from an individual level. But the second piece of this is to look at financial success from a societal level.
And those questions are really hard. Because that is where you get into:
–The widening wealth gap, income inequality and how to solve that—or even the question of whether that should be solved.
–Do men feel more pressure from a down economy?
–Generational concerns–do men feel a sense of failure if they are not able to do as well financially as their parents did?
–How is this going to affect an aging population—an ever-growing segment of the populartio is going to be over the age of 65, which has long been seen as quote unquote retirement age.
We’ll now open it up for discussion:
Jay Snook: Pressure to do well came from my dad and it was loud and clear: Go out, get a job, get experience doing anything. He himself had worked hard, gotten a medical degree and I always got a sense that I had no choice, it was that in order to be a man I just had to “go out and do it.” Even as early as high school and college—before I even graduated—you were less of man if you didn’t have a job. When I didn’t have a job in college I was constantly asked why, and the answer that I wanted to study and enjoy the college experience just wasn’t good enough. When I’m out on dates, it’s not that I feel pressured…but, it’s more like I was raised that that is what a man is supposed to do. And so I did feel somewhat emasculated when women paid. It’s not weird in my mind for a woman to be earning more than me, but it’s still somewhat weird for her to pay on dates. I know that is odd, but that is the way I was brought up—that a man pays for everything, that is how it is.
Jed Diamond: I’d like to share a little vignette that still sticks in my mind. Four or five women friends of my moms were all standing around the kitchen talking about “their man”—none of whom was making enough money. I don’t remember the actual words they said as much as their voices—sadness, pity, disdain. When I heard that, I made a vow that I would never be in a position where women would talk about me the way those women did. I would rather die than feel that shame and disrespect that I heard from those women. And the few times in my life I’ve been laid off from a job I’ve been devastated. I still think I’m driven by the belief that women will feel poorly about me.
Mark Sherman: The message I got from my father was that I was going to be the supporter of our family. My father was a doctor, there was pressure for me to be the same. I was a teacher and did get a PhD. Then I met my wife, and we both shared work and raising the kids. This discussion is wonderful, however—to me—talking about this without hearing how women feel does not tell us what we need to know. Also, times are changing, not only in the more obvious ways. Boys today are told they can join a rock band—which is something I wish I could do growing up.
Rick Gabrielly: Here is one thing that comes up in my line of work. Men make promises to wives or women in these relationships. I had my life all planned out—I was set to stop working at age 30 and become an entrepreneur. And even though I did it, it was an enormous amount of stress and hard work. And a big issue is that these guys made promises but can’t fulfill them. And broken promises lead to unrest. I don’t think my sons will feel the pressures I did. I tell them: “Start on equal ground because you can’t predict the outcome.”
Brent Greene: Over 1 in 5 people will be over the age of 65 by the year 2013, and that is a huge number. I was the son of a GI generation father. And we believed men would be the provider. That was embedded in my mind. Then I encountered feminism. And I mean that in a good way. It helped open my mind to other paths. The Boomer Generation really is a bridge. And I believe just like there was “Ardent Feminism”, there is “Robust Masculinity”. Whatever role we want as men as good enough—we can still be a good citizen, good father, productive member of society. The spotlight in the media is always on the Alpha Males, those at the top of the heap. But that is just a small percentage of men.
Mark Sherman: Brent, as you were saying the Alpha Male spotlight I was also thinking of the other extreme—the people who are NOT the Alpha Males but quite the opposite. And those people are struggling. And as for the importance of this conversation—I was talking to a friend of mine who believes that other than climate change and economic inequality, nothing else really matters. If we can’t solve those two things we’re doomed. So many people are struggling both men and women. Bernie Sanders is someone who I think talks about economic inequality in an authentic way. We need to figure that out.
Brent Greene: I did a co-presentation with Jed Diamond several years ago on men and aging. And in the room next to us was a similar presentation for boomer women. And someone remarked that they came in to our room and felt dread, uncertainty and discontent. Then they went into the women’s presentation and felt opportunity, happiness and “it’s all good” energy.
Jed Diamond: I don’t know if you heard about the latest word from Baltimore, that the death of Freddy Grey was ruled to be because of police misconduct. I heard an interview on CNN. A black woman felt ecstatic, she thought some sense of justice had prevailed. A black man interviewed, however, was very, very angry over the injustice as a whole. I myself cried. I felt that maybe there would be a glimmer of hope. As many of you know, I have a black child and grandchildren. I still fear for the boys.
Mark Sherman: What Brent and Jed said is so important—that start contrast between how men are feeling and how women are feeling. I’m on this group that is trying to get the White House Council for Boys & Men established—there already is one for Women & Girls. That polarity, in the media, Women are told “Lean In” and “You can do it”, men are told it’s “The End of Men.”
Mike Patrick: The financial status, the people we see in the 1% and the economic divide as that 1% grows further away from the rest of us. People shouldn’t have to loot for toothpaste to get their basic needs met.
Kozo Hattori: I see a shaft of hope for men and a way from seeing themselves as having to be the way earner and support everything. I see it in the service space. One of the major ideas coming up is “giftism” also called “gift-ecology”. I serve at a place called Kitchen Karma. After you get your meal, you get a “bill” that says “this meal has been paid for by the person before you. And then you get a choice to pay it forward for the next person. But you don’t have to. On the day I was there, a group of guys bill were so excited by the idea they said “charge $100 to my credit card”. A homeless man came in and left nothing, but you could see he had nothing. Then a party of four obviously wealthy people came in and they left $5. Less then the amount of a tip. At first I was angry but then I realized these people were operating under the idea of scarcity. But that was the old model—the new way forward could be the path of giftism. You no longer have to work your fingers to the bone. Imagine if corporations did this.
Rick Gabrielly: I recently went into a deli where they were doing this. I asked how they were doing and they said they were doing a little better than if they were charging regular prices.
Kozo Hattori: One other example. One guy said to the server—here’s $100. You decide how much you give back. You decide what to do. The server went back to the kitchen and asked what he should do. He didn’t know. Then he decided to think about it in the spirit of the whole concept of giftism. So he took $20 out of his pocket and gave the guy back $120. It blew the guy away. It’s called gift-ecology because it is an ecology where you are sustaining & growing goodwill. You don’t take, you give.
Mike Patrick: Do you know what that guy ended up doing when he got that $120?
Kozo Hattori: That’s the beauty of this. You don’t track it. You know it will ripple out, but you don’t know how. I know all I have to do is give. Go give and then see what happens. It’s a beautiful thing for men.
Jed Diamond: We’re really reaching a time where big changes are happening. This mindset behind inequality and scarcity. Moving towards a gift economy. Giving out of love, and then the community gives back what you need. It is actually a really old way of doing things which is resurfacing.
Kozo Hattori: When I’m going to trust in the goodness of humanity, my whole attitude shifts. I drop the whole performance anxiety which is so inherent to men.
Dave Kanegis: The Good Men Project is a business with a mission to get the word out. There is always such a bright, energetic group of people on the call. But we are preaching to the choir. If we’re trying to create change in society, we need to create that change among those who are not like-minded? How can you get this message out to people who might not be so self-aware. One thought I had was by incorporating the message of the changing roles of men into the posts themselves. Teaching by example.
Steven Lake: I go back to the start of the call. I go back to the question. Maybe we could do a survey—identify age and gender so we can see if shifts occur.
—
Photo: frankieleon / flickr
What is the point of trying to be a financial success when you have wealthy people doing everything they can not to let the rest of us have a decent wage. You wonder how many people spend any money on their hobbies like reading, hobbies, etc.
Short answer that I think a vast majority of men are familiar with.
You should be able to be the single provider for a family, even if you don’t have to.
But you should never ever expect someone else to provide for YOU. Regardless of you being temporarily laid off, or wanting to be a stay at home dad.