Dr. NerdLove debunks every myth you’ve ever read about what women want, and proposes a simple and effective alternative.
–
One of the ongoing themes here at Paging Dr. NerdLove is that one of the keys of dating success is understanding women – especially what women want.
Of course, it’s hard to actually relate to women when we’re acculturated into an antagonistic relationship with women, where men and women may as well be separate species entirely, eternally in conflict. Men are simple creatures, wanting food and fucking while women are inscrutable and sphinx-like. Men will never understand what women want because they’re just too different, yo. Even when the supposed conflict is in a joking manner, there’s still that undercurrent of “…no but seriously, it’s impossible.”
The idea that men and women are in conflict makes relationships almost impossible because it presumes the antagonistic, commodity model of sex; men are taught to enter into relationships under the assumption that we’re having to bribe, bargain or cajole women for what we want1 because everyone knows women don’t want sex, bra. We can’t work together because men are intellectual while women are emotional. Men wanna do things while women want to talk about their feelings.
Of course part of what maintains this “conflict” is how much of it relies on the shared wisdom of “everybody knows”. Of course “everybody knows” women don’t want sex. “Everybody knows” women only want slab-jawed alpha-male dudebros with six-packs and seven figure bank accounts. “Everybody knows” women are never going to tell you what they really like in a man.
These are all examples I hear from guys all the damn time. Hell, I’ve heard some of these over the last couple of days.
If we want to have more success in dating, if we want to understand women better, then we have to untangle all of these mistaken ideas about what women want.
Women Are Not A Hivemind
As I’ve said before: when you’re trying to figure out what women want, you’re asking the wrong question because women aren’t one monolithic entity. The question of what women want is inevitably phrased as though all women are exactly the same. The common stereotypes about women are trotted out as being universal to the gender as though all women were a gestalt intelligence, individual drones being ruled by some queen bee pulling strings from her central hive.
The thing is: what a woman wants – at any level – is a product of a multitude of individual factors. The culture and society a woman grows up and lives in will directly affect her outlook on the world and the way she interacts with it. The needs and wants of, say, a Masai woman are going to be radically different from a woman born and raised in Osaka. The experiences of a businesswoman of color in Chicago are going to be different from a white woman in Boise who works in the service industry.
But when we talk about “what women want”, we tend to assume that the stereotypes are universal – and usually based on upper-middle class WASPs2. Even when breaking it down tends to aggregate all women into the broad stereotypes of their segment; all white women are X, all black women are Y, all Asian women are Z, all lesbians and queer women are W, all trans women are J, etc. The assumptions about any one group whether in the macro (all women) or the micro (bisexual Five Nations women) erase the existence of an individual who doesn’t conform to that strict definition of womanhood; at best she becomes “the exception that proves the rule”3
Yes, there will be certain commonalities. There are always going to be experiences that will be more widespread, especially among people who have a shared cultural upbringing. But this doesn’t translate to “all women are X”; even amongst seemingly homogeneous groups (bisexual and lesbian women, say) there is going to be a wide variety of differences. The first key to understanding what women want is to quit assuming that there’s a universal law.
(To pre-empt the inevitable argument in the comments: this doesn’t somehow invalidate the #yesallwomen hashtag. #yesallwomen is about women’s experiences, not about traits that are universal to the gender.)
Yes, Women Want Casual Sex Too.
As insane as it seems in the 21st century, the idea that women want casual, no-strings-attached sex too – just as much as men do, in fact – continues to be a matter of controversy. Oh sure, it’s fine if they’re in a relationship – everyone knows on the rare occasions that women want sex, it’s in the context of a relationship. It’s a cornerstone of the commodity model of sex – men want sex more than women, therefore they have to reach the “market price” women set in order to get the hoo-hah. After all, how else are you going to get a man into a relationship if you don’t bribe him into it? Why is he going to buy the milk if he can just fuck the cow for free?
Women want to have sex, even casual sex… but the consequences tend to mean that they’re more likely to take a pass. Beyond the physical perils – such as pregnancy and a greater risk of contracting STIs – the potential social fallout often means women don’t see it as being worth taking the chance. Why risk slut shaming and social opprobrium for what’s likely to bemediocre sex? After all, women having casual sex is inherently a bad thing because a woman’s value is intrinsically tied to the “THIS MANY SERVED” sign hovering on the outside of her vagina. Since women are the “gatekeepers” for sex – because any man would fuck in a heartbeat, amirite? – it stands to reason that a woman who lets too many people through the gate is a lousy gatekeeper. It’s like the oft-cited-incredibly-tired comparison of the key and the lock. A key that can open any lock is a master key while a lock that can be opened by any key is shitty lock.
Sure, it’s a pithy sounding quote that seems clever, but like most glib quotes about the superiority of peens over vajeens, it makes no sense. It only works if vaginas are supposed to only fit one penis and somehow keep all others out. ((And this isn’t even getting into cutting new keys… ouch.)) You may as well point out that a pencil that goes into a sharpener too often gets whittled away to nothing while the sharpener can take pencils all day without a problem. It’s exactly as relevant: long cylindrical thing goes into hole designed to receive cylindrical thing.
The problem is that this is another case of received wisdom that people keep trying to justify into existence. There has been study after incredibly flawed study in an attempt to “prove” that women don’t like sex the way that men do as people try to ascribe to biology and evo-psych something that’s caused by culture. If we can “prove” that women don’t like sex because BIOLOGY then it goes to show that women who like sex are somehow wrong and defective. It’s a way of making the madonna/whore dichotomy a matter of scientific fact rather than shaming women for the crime of liking sex the way men do. To give a recent example: the jubilation on the right over the Hobby Lobby decision in the Supreme Court shows that the case was much more about punishing women for having sex than it was about contraceptive care. Even other women get caught up in the “shame” of admitting that women like to fuck; many women list alternate reasons why they might be prescribed hormonal birth-control pillsbecause these are somehow more “legitimate” than “I want to fuck and not have babies, m’kay?”
Understanding that women are sexual beings – just as much as men are – is critical to modern dating. Respecting them as equals and collaborators in sex rather than as antagonists makes for better partnerships. This, in turn, means that not only will there be more sex, but there will be better sex.
Oh and speaking of:
Women Don’t Want Movie Stars and Models
As we’re talking about what women want, it’s important to talk about what women don’t want, too.
And in this case, it’s “prettyboy actors” and models.
One of the most recurring complaints I see from men about women – in fact, one of my longest running frustrations with men – is how women “only” want a certain type of man. That type is inevitably someone who is model-gorgeous, preferably with 5% body fat and abs like damn. Guys will point to Brad Pitt, Michael B. Jordan, Zac Efron, Harry Stiles or any other Tiger Beat cover model and say “See, see?! Women only want guys who look like that.”
Yet, surprisingly, men who aren’t pretty-boy frontmen or Abercrombie and Fitch models continue to get laid and get married on a daily basis – even by women who would presumably be “out of their league”. To choose a famous example4 , take Adam Duritz, the lead singer of Counting Crows. He’s a man a man that Jezebel describes as “a haunted chia pet”, yet has dated an impressive number of women, including Mary Louise Parker, Gwen Stefani, Emmy Rossum, Lara Flynn Boyle, Courtney Cox, Jennifer Anniston and Samantha Mathis.
Then there’s Prince Fielder, the first-baseman for the Texas Rangers. He is decidedly not the washboard-ab-bedecked, 32-inch waist athlete type… yet he has many many fans who appreciate his more generous build. In fact his appearance in the ESPN “Bodies” issue is being celebrated by connoisseurs of larger men (and there are many) on Twitter with the#huskytwitter hashtag.
And of course, there’s Geoffry Arend, who is married to ginger bombshell Christina Hendricks, despite not being what you might call gifted in the facial symmetry department.
Just like men may drool over Kat Dennings and yet still fall in love with women who are not Kat Dennings, women are capable of eye-fucking the hell out of Ryan Gosling or Idris Elba and still desire normal, non-celebrity men. Men and women are equally capable of lusting after extremely attractive people and still lust after people who aren’t featured on movie posters. The difference is that men are told over and over again that a certain type of woman is desirable… and tend to assume that women feel the same way, despite all evidence to the contrary. Yes, good looks certainly help… but it’s not the only factor in attraction and what women define as “good looks” can vary widely.
It’s Not All About You
If there’s one thing that men tend to do constantly, it’s to assume that everything is about them – and this includes women’s behavior. One thing I see over and over again is the assumption that women are trying to trick men or somehow put one over on them. It comes up in discussions about The Friend Zone – when women are implied to have done this maliciously to men. Other times I’ve seen it come up in discussions about dating; one of my favorites5 is that “women won’t tell you the truth about what women want”. The idea is that what women saythey want and what they really respond to are two different things entirely. Under the most benign interpretations, women are simply ignorant about what they really want and will just tell you what society tells them they like. More often than not though… they’re actively lying to you because FUCK YOU, PENIS.
Of course we all know men never do this.
Even times when it’s well-intentioned, the tendency for guys to assume that everything women do is for our benefit is presumptuous. To give an example I see often: one of the ways that guys try to psyche each other up to make a cold approach is to remind themselves that women don’t put on sexy dresses and make-up and go out to clubs because they don’t want to meet guys. And while this is often true – the social contract in certain bars is that meeting strangers is not just expected but desired – it ignores the fact that women will quite cheerfully dress up and go out with their friends because it makes them feel good and they want to spend time with their friends. Men don’t enter into the equation at all.
It’s not terribly surprising. We already have the majority of culture catering to our interests as men; it seems only natural to assume that everything is about us. But it’s that “man”-centric view that causes so many dating issues; we get defensive because we see rejections as being slights against us as people. We freak out over women being visually aroused by other men because we assume it says something about how they feel about us. We obsess about women’s sexuality because surely it should revolve around us. When it doesn’t… well, it feels like we’ve had something taken away from us.
And while we’re on the subject:
Women Are Trying To Help You
Men tend to make the common mistake of believing that feminism is about superiority. They hear “feminist” and assume that what women want is total domination over men… because… well, c’mon, it’s what we’d do, right? Feminism has to inherently mean that women are superior and men are inferior and need to apologize for being male and so forth and so on.
Which makes for great MRA paranoid fantasies but in reality, it’s a lot simpler. In the words of Rebecca West: “Feminism is the radical notion that women are people”. It’s not about destroying men, it’s about making men and women equal. People get caught up in the furor of “OMG Feminists are coming for your penis” because they assume that equality is by its nature a zero-sum game; if women somehow become men’s social equals that means, by definition6that men have lost out on… something. Nobody’s quite able to say how it brings men down but by Jimminy they know it will. Because reasons.
Here’s the thing, though: part of making men and women equal means correcting a toxic system that actively hurts women.To a lot of guys, that can seem threatening; it means having to be aware of the invisible benefits that men enjoy by virtue of being male and the understanding that some of the privileges we enjoy come at a cost to other people. We don’t like to think about the negative side of things that we enjoy. We don’t want to think about how our smartphones are made by slave labor. We don’t want to think about how our culture of conspicuous consumption poisons people in developing countries. And we don’t like thinking about how much of being a man in western society is at the expense of women.
And on the individual level, this idea puts us on the defensive – we aren’t sexist! We don’t treat women like crap! We aren’t specially privileged! Don’t take your anger out on us! But it’s a system we all benefit from whether we are aware of it or not.
Now here’s the twist: the same system that women are trying to fix hurts men too. It’s not women who enforce the rigid, toxic definitions of masculinity, it’s men. The same system that tells women they’re horrible sluts for having sex is the same system that makes it harder for men to get help when they’ve been sexually assaulted or when they’re trapped in an abusive relationship. It’s the same system that says manhood is something that can be taken away from you and that any man who doesn’t adhere to the narrow definition of “man” needs to be punished for it. It’s the one that says violence is the only acceptable way to solve your problems and that admitting weakness or seeking help makes you less than a man.
This is part and parcel of the antagonistic view of relationships between men and women; we’re taught that women are the enemy when what women want more than anything is to help us – men and women both. Instead of assuming we know everything, we need to stop and question. We need to ask. We need to listen.
Because that’s really what women want.
–
Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
–
Photos:
Lead: Flickr/Lemuel Cantos
Christina Hendricks: AP/AMC/Alexandra Wieman
I don’t think the majority of women want casual sex. I think women will have casual sex because they get horny just like men do and get wrapped up in the heat of the moment. But usually when a woman is getting naked with a man, it’s because she likes him on some level already and is most likely wondering where it’s going to lead. I’ve heard some men say that men can have sex with women they don’t even like or find attractive. Women don’t have sex with men they don’t like or don’t find attractive. Plus, how many… Read more »
If it’s not “all about me”, then why should any woman be interested in trying to “help” me?
And also, if women really were that interested, shouldn’t the malign kind of men who are being ridiculed in this article, have been rendered obsolete and more or less extinct by now?
love what you wrote, awesome.
Holy crap!
I am a woman reading this and it’s just spot on.
Also: change man to woman, woman to man and swap the pronouns…still just as true. Thanks, I really learnt something from these (actually, all your posts have that effect)
This is part and parcel of the antagonistic view of relationships between men and women; we’re taught that women are the enemy when what women want more than anything is to help us – men and women both. >>> Yes, the urge women have to help men is obvious – and universal. They see men’s untapped potential, and more than anything they want to help men be all they could be, if only they weren’t so stupid, selfish and lazy. That’s why I love the GMP. It repeats and reinforces that message, day after day after day. It really is… Read more »
I truly believe most humans are good and would want to help other human beings in general.
But when someone like you is so obsessed with some kind of gender war that is difficult to even start a conversation.
How about this: If I want your help, I’ll ASK for it. Otherwise, don’t try to fix me, change me, improve me or enlighten me. It’s real simple: I like me just the way I am, and am not interested in dating or mating with someone who doesn’t. So I’m not interested in a woman who’s trying to help me, unless I’ve hired her to clean my house. In the same vein, if you want my help, you need to ASK for it. That’s the only way you can reasonably expect to get it. I’ve got too much to do… Read more »
Another GMP special, blaming and shaming men for the current level of dysfunction in the hetero-normative world.
Good job!
Yeah well, I’m sure we deserve it for something one of our ancestors did before we were born. And if they didn’t, then clearly we were thinking about doing so ourselves.
It’s an interesting world that Harris lives in. Must be working for him. He’s getting some serious interest just from this article. By TGMP standards there aren’t that many good men out there. I’m telling you polygamy is one of the solutions for this problem. Feminism just needs to be more open and consider the possibilities. The writers of “Big Love” bring out some interesting challenges in these relationships however. So be careful.
Yeah, it’s called the “Real World”, where most of us happen to live.
“By TGMP standards there aren’t that many good men out there.”
TGMP standards? Where did you read it? Btw, poligamy is still marriage and men should stop marrying, right? So that won’t help as well. Women could just give up men as well, maybe that will work the best. 😀
I’m trying to continue to expand the conversation. What are you talking about? You’re all over the place.
Oh, sorry. So, yes, please expand the conversation about… how TGMP believes only few good men exist and how polygamy will save women (which is bad for men anyway, because men should GTOW – that is what I meant).
But sure, go ahead. We will listen to that serious talking of yours.
More and more men are doing the math and realizing that the “pursuit” is not always worth the time or effort involved. Add in STDs, paternity suits, and potentially losing half of everything they have. It is not anger or bitterness that is causing men to withdraw but simply exhaustion. Trying to please other people and live up to constantly changing expectations is a no-win proposition. Men have become our own worst enemies by buying into the lies we were fed about what a “man” is supposed to be and how to act. For your own self-preservation DO NOT marry… Read more »
“More and more men are doing the math and realizing that the “pursuit” is not always worth the time or effort involved. Add in STDs, paternity suits, and potentially losing half of everything they have. It is not anger or bitterness that is causing men to withdraw but simply exhaustion. Trying to please other people and live up to constantly changing expectations is a no-win proposition.”
Substitute “dating” for “pursuit” and this explains why just as many women are opting out. Exhausting.
MGTOW is not just about men. Women can choose to go their own way as well. Just because we have been programmed all our lives to act a certain way does not mean we have to. Find your own path to happiness.
Ok Wes, now go your own way. And like, take your obsession with you. That is all you can say all the time, and it is getting boring… not trying to be mean, but seriously man. That “STDs, paternity suits, and potentially losing half of everything they have” talk is a kind of hysteric shit you should not be obsessing over. STDs you get without even marrying or cohabiting; paternity frauds are rare and you do not need to marry or cohabit to fall for one as well; and losing much of your money or paying alimony is something that… Read more »
If you have an actual solution I would like to hear it. Is there a real benefit to getting married for men? Just because you can do something does not necessarily mean you should. If Feminism was about women breaking out of predetermined roles, why should that not apply equally?
Hi Wes Carr I think it depend in what country you live in. The world is larger than the US. Maybe the law in US is more unfair to men than the law in other countries,,. I am not qualified to say. Where I live iI have the same obligations to the man I marry as he has to me, I have to provide for him economically in periods he can not ( or rescues ) do so himself. He can also totally ruin me economically if he turns against me and want to harm me. Do not ask me… Read more »
Sorry typo
…..in periods he can not ( or refuse to ) do so himself.
There are many reasons men still choose to marry: tradition, fear of being alone, wanting kids, or they have just not realized what they are getting into. The problem is not women per se, but a legal system that presupposes that they are automatically better parents. If you are a functioning adult and can hold down a job, then you are equally responsible. For older men there is the concern that a woman may want to marry simply for security or be a ready made father for kids she already has. I do all my own cooking, cleaning and laundry,… Read more »
Now here’s the twist: the same system that women are trying to fix hurts men too. It’s not women who enforce the rigid, toxic definitions of masculinity, it’s men. As expected. The system hurts men and women. Men hurt men and women. But women aren’t hurting men, they are totally innocent. Good luck fixing a system that’s harming everyone by starting with absolving women of playing a role in the harm. Which makes for great MRA paranoid fantasies but in reality, it’s a lot simpler. In the words of Rebecca West: “Feminism is the radical notion that women are people”.… Read more »
…of course women play a role in enforcing and perpetuating our harmful social systems that we’ve built around gender. Feminism doesn’t absolve women of responsibility for the roles they play in that. In fact, that’s a huge part of feminism– getting women to stop slut-shaming other women, to stop buying into the BS stereotypes that the TV and media sell to us all, etc. Of course the same applies to men as well. And here’s the thing, … Men are in an advantaged position. We need men for the feminist movement to work. I think also that the reason you’re… Read more »
When’s the last time you heard a feminist speaking up for male rape survivors? When’s the last time you heard feminists sticking up for males sexual abuse survivors? Or how about critical discussion about that 20% of college women being raped figure that mysteriously doesn’t match with the number of women that consider themselves to be raped? The problem isn’t that feminist are mean and nasty looking to destroy men; the problem is that they’re so dedicated to a reality that doesn’t exist that they’re harming everybody in the process. Would it really be so bad if men got reproductive… Read more »
“When’s the last time you heard a feminist speaking up for male rape survivors? When’s the last time you heard feminists sticking up for males sexual abuse survivors?” Not that long ago. The project was about rape survivors, and they called many men to talk about their experiences as well. “Would it really be so bad if men got reproductive rights? Would society crumble if only actual rapes were prosecuted rather than everything that could arguably be interpreted as a rape; even if the “victim” didn’t think it was a rape?” What reproductive rights are you talking about? What about… Read more »
I think also that the reason you’re getting a feeling that feminists think that you’re either with them or you’re a bigot is that the premise of feminism is so simple–”women are equal and deserve equal treatment”, that if you disagree, then you’re saying that women are inferior! You don’t have to agree with feminist organizations’ actions, techniques, or the more complex aspects of their goals and manifestos. Even with a premise as simple as that who is to say that feminism has a monopoly on equality. It seems to me that feminists have a problem with the idea of… Read more »
Well said Bob. Yes, women play their role as well and when I see other women use slurs against women easily or other anti-woman stuff, it drives me crazy. But you guys forget that the system is still built around male superority over women. There are 49.6% women in the world and 50.4% men. Yet most stories in books, flim and TV are told by a male perspective with a larger cast of male characters. The majority of films out there have a heavier cast of male charcters where women are more or less just treated like eye-candy. 40+ year… Read more »
I think also that the reason you’re getting a feeling that feminists think that you’re either with them or you’re a bigot is that the premise of feminism is so simple–”women are equal and deserve equal treatment”, that if you disagree, then you’re saying that women are inferior! Alternatively you might not simply buy into a line as equivalently naive as saying “Stalinism is the radical notion that workers are people.” That oversimplification cuts out a lot of the claims, concepts and history that is reasonably associated with mainstream feminism, which I have no desire whatsoever to identify with. That… Read more »
However, in exactly the same way that someone who opposed the Civil Rights Movement is a bigot, so also is a person who opposes the feminist movement. These movements seek equality and no more. So by trampling them, you are turning yourself, truly, into an oppressor. Oh and one more thing. I have never heard of anyone affiliated with the Civil Rights Movement express views anywhere near the sentiment of “If you don’t support out movement then you’re a bigot.”. On the other hand plenty of feminists express the sentiment that if you are not in line with feminism that… Read more »
It seems like he meant it’s mostly men who play the biggest part on reinforcing harmful social systems against men. I would agree. Even the MRAs are doing that all the time, and they are supposed to be for men, all men. “Sounds like feminists being hooked on being the victim all the time. Interesting how the only time MRAs are ever brought up is when there is a chance to insult them.” What exactly sounds like feminists trying to play the victims? I didn’t get it. And he is mocking the MRAs who are, you know, very delusional, hysterical… Read more »
I’m sure they sound delusional and paranoid. But that’s because you’re not being open minded about it. It’s undeniable that men in the US have no reproductive rights. We get to cross our legs and that’s about it. Technically we have to be careful to dispose of our sperm in a way that can’t be stolen as the courts don’t generally differentiate between legally and illegally obtained sperm when it comes to child support. As far as playing the victim, rounding the figures in the direction that suits their agenda and then blaming men for the results being poor sounds… Read more »
“I’m sure they sound delusional and paranoid. But that’s because you’re not being open minded about it.” I will never be open-minded to prejudiced and malicious bullshit that is meant to ultimately serve as a hate club and not actually help people out. “Technically we have to be careful to dispose of our sperm in a way that can’t be stolen as the courts don’t generally differentiate between legally and illegally obtained sperm when it comes to child support.” Technically it is really difficult to prove when sperm was illegally obtained. And that is horrible, but what can we do… Read more »
It seems like he meant it’s mostly men who play the biggest part on reinforcing harmful social systems against men. I would agree. Even the MRAs are doing that all the time, and they are supposed to be for men, all men. He didn’t say men play the biggest part. He said that its not women that reinforce the rigid roles on men, its men that do it. What exactly sounds like feminists trying to play the victims? I didn’t get it. Mostly because of the way feminists tend to reframe issues so that they are “really” about women. Dads… Read more »
“He didn’t say men play the biggest part. He said that its not women that reinforce the rigid roles on men, its men that do it.” I know that. I meant maybe he meant men play the biggest part. But I see your point. “Dads aren’t treated as being inherently bad parents, no its that moms are burdened with the role of parenting. Homophobia against gay men is really misogyny. Male rape victims aren’t silenced because they male its because they are made out to be women. And so forth.” And can we deny many of these things carry misogyny… Read more »
And can we deny many of these things carry misogyny elements within? Even more when it comes to homo/bi/transphobia and misogyny… I faced and still face it. I almost got killed because I “wanted to be and act a woman” so they told me they would “treat me like one, then” and just went beat me up. Of course it is not only that, but a significant part in many cases. I said nothing of denying the existence of misogyny in those things. What I’m talking about is telling a dad that him being male is secondary to why he… Read more »
“It seems like he meant it’s mostly men who play the biggest part on reinforcing harmful social systems against men. I would agree. Even the MRAs are doing that all the time”
Examples?
Hang on a second….I did not know I was supposed to be trying to fix the system. I have not started yet and with summer vacations, I need at least 10 business days to fix the system.
I do need to see a purchase order for the full amount before I start work.
Dude… marry me.
“We need to ask. We need to listen. Because that’s really what women want.” Yes. Thank you.
Thank you. Really. Just… Thank you and don’t stop.
What’s your number?
And thank you.
PUA Tyler/Owen of RSD looks like a pale light-bulb headed ginger with a beard…in his earlier videos, he looks so pasty and weird and needy…in his later videos, he appears more relaxed and smiling and seems to be having more fun….and he gets the girls, lots of them…! And he scores rather low in the looks department….
Got news for ya; women prefer a good looking man. That said, sometimes women fall for a not so good looking man. Not everyone can take home a successful Adonis with brains and personality, there just aren’t enough to go around.
I got news for you, women are more diversified about what good looking men are, men it is big tits and more big tits, only 8.5 percent of men like small breasts, truth. I can`t stand hunky men, I will take Bruce lee over any WWF wrestler any day, as for women getting your money, that is easy to fix, pre nups are not just for the rich. and yes Jane Seymoor and Tyne Daly are just a couple of women who have been royally screwed in divorce, yeah women want men to listen but we must also listen in… Read more »