Men’s sexual desire is driven by culture, not evolution, Hugo Schwyzer argues. Here’s what young women are really looking for, and why we’re fools to think otherwise.
In my office, Amber is telling me a familiar story. She’s come to talk about her autobiography paper for my women’s studies class, and she reads part of her rough draft aloud.
“I was 12, and this car pulled up alongside me as I was walking home from school … the driver looked a little older than my dad, at least 40. He leaned out, and I thought he was going to ask me for directions, but instead he asked me how old I was. 
When I told him, he laughed. ‘Damn, you got some big titties for such a little girl.’ He made this gross smacking sound with his lips, and sped away. I ran all the way home.”
Amber looks up at me. “I want to know,” she asks, “why do older men hit on younger women?” She’s 20 now, tall and graceful; she tells me that for the last eight years, older men have been approaching her. “It’s not just me,” she adds, “it happens to most of my friends, almost regardless of what they look like or what they’re wearing. It makes me feel like I can’t trust anyone, like all men want just one thing. Why can’t they chase women their own age?”
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I’ve been writing and researching about relationships between older men and younger women since 2005. While the media is hyping the “cougar” phenomenon, they ignore the reality that in most age-disparate affairs the man is the older (sometimes, as in the case of Hugh Hefner, astoundingly older) partner. We take it for granted that many men in their 30s, 40s, and 50s will be more sexually attracted to younger women than to their peers. While most men and women alike are appalled by stories of adult men hitting on 12-year-olds, we still assume that men will “naturally” lust after young women just a few years older.
In 2005, John Derbyshire, a much-admired right-wing pundit at the National Review, opined:
It is, in fact, a sad truth about human life that beyond our salad days, very few of us are interesting to look at in the buff. Added to that sadness is the very unfair truth that a woman’s salad days are shorter than a man’s—really, in this precise context, only from about 15 to 20.
Remarkably, the “family values” editors at America’s flagship conservative journal let this nonsense run, perhaps because they accepted what he was saying as gospel truth: 15- and 16-year-old girls are more sexually alluring to normal adult men than are women in their late 20s. But Derbyshire wasn’t telling us a truth about women’s beauty—he was telling us a truth about the way we’ve socialized male desire.
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No one thinks babies were the first thing on the mind of Jason Statham when he started dating a 23-year-old Victoria’s Secret model, or that Sean Penn (50) is motivated by the desire to start a family with Scarlett Johansson, who’s barely half his age.
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Ask any porn site operator: the “barely legal” or “teens” sections are among the most popular niches. That doesn’t sound so troubling when you imagine an army of teen boys masturbating to images and videos of their female peers. It’s considerably different to imagine men jerking off to pictures of girls young enough to be their daughters—or granddaughters. Since Hef published his first Playboy magazine in 1953, we’ve raised three generations of men to believe that women peak in desirability somewhere between 18 and 24. For many men, that peak starts much earlier. Ask a 17-year-old how often she’s been leered at (or worse) by a much older man.
For too many men, the term “jailbait” isn’t a warning. It’s an enticement.
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Spare me the arguments from biology or evolutionary psychology, the ones that excuse predatory old guys from staring at “young firm flesh” because that flesh belongs to a woman near the peak of her fertility. The great lengths to which countless men go to avoid fatherhood suggests that the continued evolutionary imperative to “spread one’s seed” is oversold to the point of being illusory. No one thinks babies were the first thing on the mind of Jason Statham when he started dating a 23-year-old Victoria’s Secret model, or that Sean Penn (50) is motivated by the desire to start a family with Scarlett Johansson, who’s barely half his age. This is about the cultural cachet of dating a much younger woman—and about the difficult-to-deny reality that younger women lack the experience and wisdom to call their older lovers on their bullshit.
Two recent books do a superb job of puncturing the argument that male sexuality is primarily a creature of evolutionary programming. University of North Carolina professor Martha McGaughey’s The Caveman Mystique: Pop-Darwinism and the Debates Over Sex, Violence and Science (Routledge, 2008) makes the convincing case that our beliefs about male sexuality form the science, and not the other way around. In other words, men who want a reason to chase younger women are desperate to claim that what is a culturally constructed choice is really an unavoidable biological reality.
Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference (Norton, 2010) offers a systematic debunking of the idea that men’s sexual decisions are driven largely by brain chemistry. Both Fine and McGaughey make a compelling case that the actual science doesn’t support the idea that men’s sexual desires are driven by evolutionary imperatives.
In other words, John Derbyshire (and a lot of other grown men) may be sexually attracted to underage girls—but they don’t get to blame that fetish on biology.
Even if it were “natural,” there’s nothing innocent or harmless or healthy about older men pursuing substantially younger women. The cost is high to everyone involved. While a few young women may be attracted to much older guys (often because they falsely imagine themselves to be “so much more mature” than “other girls” their age), most are like Amber—disheartened and disgusted by the endless parade of men 10, 20, or 40 years older who harass and hit on them. These young women aren’t flattered. And even if they seem flattered at the time, it doesn’t mean the attention from older men isn’t doing great harm.
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Lynn Phillips, a psychology professor at New York University, did a famous study of young women (mostly under legal age) who were in relationships with significantly older men. Most of the girls she interviewed described these affairs as mutual, exciting, and fulfilling. They pushed back against the suggestion that they were being exploited, claiming in many cases to have initiated or at least welcomed the sex with older men. Phillips then interviewed a similar number of older women. Each of these was over 30, and each had been in a relationship with a much older man while still in her teens. With the benefit of hindsight and experience, these older women acknowledged that they’d been used and hurt and exploited. They admitted that their claims of maturity and sexual adventurousness were all a pretense. In other words, what Phillips found is that while there are some teen girls who are “asking for it,” it’s not what they really want. Teen girls feign sexual sophistication; men need to be able to see through that.
Kerry Cohen, author of Loose Girl and the forthcoming Dirty Little Secrets: Breaking the Silence on Teenage Girls and Promiscuity, argues that “when adult men sexualize teen girls, even just by ogling them, the girls are reminded that their worth in their world is dependent on how sexy they are.” “Girls who choose men so far out of their age ranges,” Cohen writes, “tend toward low self-esteem and depression.” These aren’t sweet coming-of-age stories. And they don’t fit the pornographic story line that young girls are eager for sexual initiation at the hands of an older, wiser mentor.
Here’s the brutal truth, guys. Teen and 20-something women aren’t nearly as interested in much older men as you may think. Sure, there are high school girls with Johnny Depp fantasies, but guess what? You’re not Johnny Depp. (If you were that 48-year-old actor, you’d be devoted to your 38-year-old French girlfriend.) Yes, some young women do flirt with older men. Some do it for validation, some do it for excitement, but a hell of a lot of them do it because guys like you have already taught them that’s the only thing that older men want.
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A true story about the way younger women really see “older men” (and if you’re attracted to 18- to 24-year-olds, you count as “older” if you’re on the high side of 30).
A few years ago, my friend Sean went through a rough divorce. Newly single and almost 40, he went back on the dating scene for the first time in over a decade. But the woman who caught his eye wasn’t someone he met online. She was his favorite barista at his local Starbucks. She was 19.
Next: The girl behind the counter
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About Hugo Schwyzer
Vocalyze
Black and Hispanic and Asian women tend to look younger than Caucasian women ONLY as we get into our 30s, 40s, etc. Because that white skin can’t take the sun and ages faster. Easily solved with sunscreen.
I just don’t get where Fight the Power thinks women only like young boy-looking men and not over-30s,. over 40s, etc. Son, (and I can call you that as I am 49), the women I know my age don’t even register young college-age guys on our radar EXCEPT when they are friends of our sons and over our house and I am running around serving them soda or whatever. (and the last thing I am thinking about them is if they are attractive or not!) I stand by my belief that women like men their own age the best. When I was in my early 20s, I did not like if a 40-something or older man talked to me unless he was drop-dead gorgeous like a Paul Newman or something, I liked men my own age. Now, I do not find the boyish faces of early 20-somethings sexually attractve, they are like kids to me; I find a mature man with some lines on face to be attractive, provided he doesn’t let his body go into a big pot-bellied mess. Right now I do think a certain 31 year old actor is gorgeous (Taylor Kitsch, check him out, much cuter than Taylor Lautner) but that is an exception, not the rule.
I’m no expert on what women are into and I’m not saying all women are into young-boyish types. I am just saying that when young women say that men over 30 are “gross”, I usually do not expect that when they are 30 they are going to be attracted to men their age. What we are attracted to PHYSICALLY doesn’t really change, just our dating preferences within that which we are attracted to. I mean, it CAN change based on experiences, but that varies from person to person and doesn’t naturally happen with age.
I disagree. I’m sure a lot of 14 year old girls didn’t view boys their own age as unattractive and yet at the age of 25 they would be hard pressed to date a 14 year old boy.
As a male in my 40′s I can’t see myself being with a 20 something, because to my eyes they’re hot, but they look like Girls, not Women. I like women in their 30′s and 40′s. If they have absolutely no lines on their face, not even the laugh lines around the eyes, they look like children to me.
This doesn’t mean I want a woman who let herself go. I want someone who takes care of herself, and there are plenty of women in their 30′s and 40′s who take care of themselves.
I happen to think it is natural for some men in their 30s and 40s to be attracted to women in their 20s and I do think some women in their 20s are attracted to 30- and 40-something men.
But who you are attracted to doesn’t follow some conscious logic.
I liked Richard Gere when he was in American Gigolo in the 80s and I was a teen, and I saw him on his 60th birthday and I would LOVE to have him as my man. So in reference to what Fight the Power said, my taste didn’t change much in a sense (he looks pretty much the same to me now as he did then), but the signs of aging on him (white hair, etc.!) did not decrease my attraction to him as I got older too – he defines male hotness from my current view!. But as a 20-something, I would NOT have been attracted to the 60-year old Richard Gere. There’s GOT to be some built-in changing in your taste as you age — not something I think about either, it is instinctive. John seems to have a similar view so I don’t think it is only women whose taste for men naturally (not by forced conscious choice) changes to go along with her age. Am I making any sense?
The “built-in changing in your taste as you age” thing you mentioned has been something I’ve thought about for a long time.
Last week I was on the NY subway train heading into Manhattan where I saw this incredibly cute blonde, the kind that would have turned me into a puppy at the age of 23, but all I could think was, “Wow, I would have really been attracted to her when I was younger,” and while I recognized that she was physically attractive that was it.
Later on in the day on the way home while waiting on a train platform I spotted a woman closer to my own age. We made eye contact a few times, and it turned out she was getting on a different train a minute or so later so I didn’t approach her (I also couldn’t see her left hand and I always check the ring finger first) , but I felt DRAWN to her. It was a completely different type of attraction. The woman much younger than me was attractive, but I wasn’t attracted to her, while I found the woman closer to my age attractive AND I was attracted to her.
If someone reading this doesn’t understand what I mean between finding someone attractive while not being attracted to her this look at it this way. You can see a pretty painting in a museum, but that doesn’t mean you want to go to the gift shop and buy a print.
Yes, some people’s tastes do change as they get older the way yours have. But this is not built-in and I would bet that most men your age do not require a woman to look older than 30 in order to be attracted to her. I know for a fact that we are not wired to just be attracted to people our age, because I am 24 and when I see hot women in their 30s or 40s, I am attracted to them, and I have been since I was in high school. And I know for sure most guys will say the same thing. So why should older men not be attracted to younger women?
When it comes to underage teens, it’s different. The reason I’m not attracted to them is because of the fact that they are considered children. However, purely in terms of looks, there is nothing unattractive to me about a 16-17 year old girl. That is why if I meet a hot girl my age who looks like she could be 16-17, I will be attracted to her. But if she is actually under 18(or 18 and in high school) I will not be attracted to her. Now, if we are talking about a 14 year old girl who hasn’t finished going through puberty yet, that is different, in that case, her looks are unattractive to me.
Note, I am not saying I PREFER girls who look like they’re 16-17. However, like I’ve said before, there is usually no difference physically between a girl at 17 and a girl at 21. So since I am physically attracted to girls who look 21, I am also physically attracted to girls who look 17.
“I disagree. I’m sure a lot of 14 year old girls didn’t view boys their own age as unattractive and yet at the age of 25 they would be hard pressed to date a 14 year old boy.”
Again, it is different when we are talking about underage teens, especially when we are talking as young as 14.
However, I should point out that 25 year old women do not consider 14 year old boys “gross” the way some younger women claim to find older men. Finding someone “gross” and not wanting to date someone are two VERY different things.
Fight the Power, you are only 24, I think it is normal that you find mature 16+ year olds attractive and would not think it strange if you dated someone 18+. I think most women I know, myself included, are having problems with the 40+ year old men who won’t consider a woman over age 25. And I definitely was unhappy when an obvious 40+ year old tried to hit on me when I was under 25. Especially when that is ALL he flirted with, and completely ignored women his own age – that does not seem natural to me. And I work with a whole lot of guys like this so I know it exists!
I am 57 and I don’t find women under say about 40 sexually attractive anymore. I have a 29 year old daughter. I think it would be a little weird to be sexually attracted to someone her age. Yet my wife doesn’t look any older to me now than when we met. It is because we have aged together. I am most attracted to women near my own age group or only slightly younger. If I came on to a 25 year old, I wouldn’t blame her a bit for treating me like an old pervert, because that is what I would be.
I’ve noticed a lot of men complaining on this forum about how they shouldn’t be “judged” or “scolded” for being attracted to younger women. I totally get that. I’m a younger woman and I get a lot of attention from older men. I can’t say that I actually want any of that attention, but I’m not going to tell you who you can or can’t be attracted to.
What I don’t get is how all these old guys EXPECT to get with younger women. I’m being approached by men, who in my opinion, are pudgy (or fat), losing their hair (or bald), wrinkly or saggy, etc. I try to be polite when guys like this come up to me (they are fellow human beings, after all). But I have NO desire to be with them physically! And from the reactions of most of the girls I know around these men – almost all of them feel the same way!
I came across this blog in an attempt to understand why I have all these old dudes coming up to me. And reading this, I think it’s really hypocritical how all these older men are putting down women THEIR OWN AGE as being “fat”, “wrinkly”, “saggy”, “tired” etc. MEN, PLEASE LOOK IN THE MIRROR! I think A LOT of men are totally kidding themselves when they say that they are the exception (“I don’t look my age” or “I look really good for my age” or “I’m really fit/ attractive” etc). Try looking at yourself through a 22 year-old’s eyes and THEN tell me how good you’re 35, 45, or 55 year old ass looks! LOL. At least a lot of those old women had kids so that’s why their out of shape – what’s your excuse?!!
Also, even if I could overlook the whole physical thing – the fact that they want someone so much younger kinda wreaks of MID-LIFE CRISIS (I should know – our neighbor just went through this!!!)! And there’s nothing attractive about it! Guys, you need to stop being in denial! You’re old – grow up! Sorry to vent, but it’s just really frustrating and CREEPY!
I gotta agree with your position 100%. I’m one of the guys complaining, and I also think that if I knock you for feeling that way, I’d be a total hypocrite.
in terms of understanding it: I certainly don’t think that younger women should find me attractive, and when they do (and some do) I find it surprising, or wonder whether they are joking.
But generally, young women who go for older men I think like assertive, confident older men. And more to the point, most older men think that the younger girls who like older men are going to like this about them. So there is no point in being unassertive – the ones who are not going to like you are not going to like you anyway, and you stand more of a chance with the ones who might if you act like that is the thinking.
Hope that helps. For what it is worth, pretty well all of us- feel far less confident inside than we look. So I am not sure that working on the assumption that these guys actually think this stuff just because they look and act as though they do is a useful way of understanding why they act with you how they do.
I am sorry, but could you please mind your language in this one? Calling guys “creepy” has a similar (NOT the same) effect on guys as calling girls “sluts” for certain behaviour. It´s just not cool and you needn´t do it.
Also, you are stating in which behaviour men should not engage, i.e. hit on younger women. But I´d be interested to know what is permissible to do for them. I will be old someday, but I am not physically attracted to older women. Would you say that men like me should just “suck it up” and accept their fate? Also some guys were not able to get with younger girls when they themselves were younger. 16 to 23 year old girls did not want me, generally. Can you imagine how that feels? That is an honest question – because judging from your comments it seems like you do not have problems getting attention from older guys, so I´m inferring a fortiori also from younger guys.
I agree with JS, that was pretty uncalled for. I think it is better for older men to understand exactly what is going on in the head’s of the younger women who they may try to hit on, just so they can understand how that may not be received well.
However, I definitely think that tastes change as you get older. I believe when people age, they generally continue to be attracted to their age group. At least women are, so if you are a good deal older than a woman, then she probably will not be interested. Some of it may be physical attraction, some may just be because you’re at different points in your lives. So it wouldn’t be fair to say to “suck it up” and accept you’re not going to get young women, but you also need to understand that on average, younger women will be interested in younger men. If you only like young women, then it will be harder to find an appropriate woman.
JS: Why not accept “your fate?” Wome are supposed to accept the fact that by the time we reach 40 we’re no longer deemed desirable or dateable by men. We reach a certain age and suddenly we disappear in the eyes of society. We’re supposed to accept that our shelf lives are up and that we have to make way for our younger counterparts – who we once were and one day they will be us. Society says “you’re only good until a certain age so get what you can while you can.” And if you divorce or become widowed later in life you get judged or excluded for possibly having baggage….the double standard is sickening…Many women may not have attracted guys during the 20s and 30s and you know what we had to do… “suck it up.” Now we hit our 40s, 50s and 60s and it’s okay for society to label us as “pumas” and “cougars” if we find ourselves dating younger men. I may be approaching 40 but I certainly don’t appreciate the labels. Yet a 50 year old man wants to date a 20 year old girl and that should be acceptable and not considered “creepy?” Society should have pity on you because maybe you didn’t get the pretty, hot girl when you were in your 20s and 30s…please. Yes I say “suck it up.” Women are expected “suck it up” and accept our fates – only fair that you men should accept the fact that as you age you should grow up and put away childish wants and desires as well. Face it – none of us gets our youth back no matter how many young people we surround ourselves with as we age.
I kinda hoped that emancipation was about freeing women from their constraints, not tying men up with the same ones.
JS, we would, but that’s not really our fate. I’m 37, and my wife is 26. One of my exes was 12 years younger than me, and another was 2 years older. I have friends in their 40s who manage to attract women in their 20s. This is a two way street. Men will often be open to the option of dating significantly younger women because, honestly, many of the younger women are completely up for it – more than younger men are up for dating older women.
In my case, my wife is smart, idealistic, and importantly – not jaded. Both men and women get jaded with age. If she was 40, that wouldn’t have made a difference – it would actually be better in a sexual sense, because older women are generally more sexually open. But I’m okay with waiting.
Most of my friends – late 30s, 40s, some 50s even – have been pursued actively at some point by a much younger woman for a relationship. And in most of these cases, these men have rejected the advances because they want someone they can relate to (in a relationship that is – as far as sexual advances go, I’ll be honest, there have been very few rejections).
So it comes down to this. It’s not fate. It’s options. Men pursue women of a wider age range because they CAN. Many younger women are very interested in older men – and these men have that option.
So what about the older men who ARE fit/attractive? Younger men are attracted to fit/attractive older women. Also, do you think that all younger men are super hot? What about the ones who are fat or unattractive? Oh and I know guys who have been balding since their early 20s. What should they do? Approach older women? Because older women aren’t anymore likely to be attracted to an unattractive guy than younger women are. And do you really think all younger women are super hot and entitled to a hot guy? Because there are tons of young women who are pretty unattractive.
I am 24 and have never dated anyone yet, and a big part of it is because of the attitude people like you have. I am not fat or balding, but I am not too confident about my looks. I’ve gotten mixed messages and for all I know, I could be ugly. Because of this, I’ve always been too insecure to approach girls because my thinking was always “if I’m ugly, then I have no business approaching them”. And now here I am. So do you think I did the right thing? Is that what every guy who doesn’t look like a model is supposed to do? Stay back and let you all date the hot guys? Guys have needs and it’s not easy for natural for a guy to spend his youth avoiding girls. So shame on you for expecting guys to do that. I really do blame people like you for my problems and honestly I hope you have nightmares every night for the rest of your life.
Oh and I don’t know your age or what you look like, but my standards are pretty high. If you are not black or hispanic, chances are you are below my standards, and even if you are young, it would be me turning you down not the other way around.
Fight the Power. You’re standards are pretty high and that’s why you don’t like white women?
Wow.
You know, I do not find most black women attractive at all, but I don’t credit it to having HIGH standards, I simply credit it to that not being my taste in women.
John, I never said I never said I don’t like white women. There are lots white women I find very attractive. I find beauty in lot of different kinds of women. However, when it comes to which women I will actually be open to dating, it is more limited to certain types that I find myself particularly attracted to. And because of the physical features I happen to like, these women are usually black or hispanic. But of course, there are also white women I would be open to dating, it’s just that there is a smaller number of white women than black/hispanic women. For example, when I see a group of 10 black women and 10 white women, I will most likely find a few of the white women attractive, whereas I would probably find MOST of the black women in the group attractive.
The point I was trying to make is that even though the poster above seems to think she is too good for all those “old unattractive men”, it is very likely that I would have interest in her even though I may not be one of the attractive men, and I don’t think it will be any different if I was older.
ok fight, im not going to get into a whole mess with you. but i think maybe you should seek therapy or someone to talk to. this sites interesting so i come her like what, once a month, or every few months, and you’re always on this topic. you’re worried about why young women dont like older men, when you’re not even an older man. you’re like 24, why does this topic concern you so much. ask yourself that. i know why it concerns me(Because i get harassed by older guys), but it doesn’t bother me so much that i always feel the need to argue about it. if you’ve never dated anyone, maybe its because you’re always on here, and you might not try. you just think “well i know girls are like this and that, so i wont even try” wth? go out and just be you, and maybe you’ll find someone for you. worry about older men problems when you get there.
! and btw, this comment wasn’t meant to be offensive, so dont take it that way.
Good Bye
And here’s an interesting thought. You complain about older men hitting on you because “they should know we’re not interested”, but then why don’t you complain about 15 year old boys hitting on you? If you are 18+ chances are you are not interested in 15 year old boys, so then why is it ok when they hit in you? This is all just superficial and immature and you don’t mind if the person is “pretty” even if you are not interested in them.
Let’s make this even more confusing – why do men in their late 20s and early 30s and also men over 60 more openly flirt with me than men my own age? Why? Do middle age people just hate being around other middle age people? Because at this point, I almost expect the younger and older men to always be more open and friendly and complimentary, and the ones my own age are just dismissive, so now I have a negative attitude about most men my own age (40 – 60 year olds) too!
Wish I could help you out there. All my friends are military or ex-military. They don’t flirt with, hit on, or ask women out since it could be considered sexual harassment. I assume when they date the women have asked them out. But we really don’t talk about it. As for the civilian males, 40-60, you might be referring to, it sounds like they’re in it for sex and it’s all physical. They want the best trophy they can find. Seem like lost souls to me.
I think I understand where Traci C was coming from somewhat.
I have an online dating profile, and though I set the age of my date between 20 and 30 (I’m 23), I still get hit on a lot by men in their 40s who, shall we say, have let themselves go. I am dedicated to staying trim and healthy, so it’s a bit of a turn-off, but more than that, the sense of entitlement some of them have as though they are doing me a service by hitting on me is even more of a problem for me.
I can’t control who certain people find attractive; if they find me attractive, fine, but the implication that I should be flattered by the attention and them telling me I am “more mature than my peers” for talking with them if I send back a quick “thanks for the kind comments on my smile etc” is getting a little old. I don’t find it creepy per se – that’s a very loaded word and should be used very carefully I think – but just a bit exasperating. I can’t help but think of all the 40-something year old women out there frustrated that many 40-something men are too busy pining for girls 20 years younger than they are instead of looking at the women their own age.
No matter how hot an older man might be, we are at different stages in life and experiences, and I am personally uncomfortable dating someone so far beyond my age range. It’s a personal quirk perhaps, but then all people have their own unique tastes in dating so…I’ll shut up, haha.
Still, I think this issue would disappear if there was an even proportion of adult males to adult females in our country, or maybe more males than females (then we’d have different issues). Some really out-of-shape, negligent (appearance wise) 40-60 year old men feel entitled to someone 20 years younger – they know that in a place like NYC, especially if they have a JOB, there are plentiful single women available. Yes, I know there are a lot of really out-of-shape, negligent (appearance wise) 40-60 year old women, too, but I don’t see them thinking they deserve ANY man except their husbands or boyfriends if they have been together for awhile. The single, good looking women age 40 -60 have slim pickings, especially when the same age men about equal in attractiveness want a trophy and our conventional society says younger=more prestige and status.
“No matter how hot an older man might be, we are at different stages in life and experiences, and I am personally uncomfortable dating someone so far beyond my age range. It’s a personal quirk perhaps, but then all people have their own unique tastes in dating so…I’ll shut up, haha.”
Its very true that you are at different stages in life but so what? Can you learn something from someone who has already gone through what you have gone through. If you take the life experiences argument seriously than you should only date people of the same gender, culture, religion as yourself since any one of these things can massively alter life experience.
I don’t believe the stage of life argument, life experiences or maturity. I think the true motivation is just age prejudice which I find odd. I think the origin of the age prejudice is our school system which segregates people by age. I used to have it. When I was in school I remember there was this idea that it was odd to interact with students younger than you….older than you was a good thing, but interacting with teachers was again strange.
Well I think the stage of life argument works sometimes, though not always. It depends on the individuals and it depends on what they’re looking for in a partner. A 20-year-old and a 50-year-old are in different stages of their lives. And so the question becomes, what do you want in a relationship? Does your partner end up treating you like a child sometimes because of your age? Or vice versa…does your partner treat you like a parent? Then there’s a problem…well unless that’s what you both want. And different religious beliefs can affect a relationship too. Yet again, it’s on an individual basis. But an Evangelical Christian and an agnostic will have some issues that others might not have.
Now, because our culture largely treats teenagers as children, I think a relationship between an older man (or woman) and a teenager is a problem. Because then it’s not about different life experiences….it’s about why a kid is seeking a sexual relationship from someone who is an adult, and why is an adult seeking a sexual relationship with a kid. I know they aren’t physically children; they’re young adults. But culturally we do not put teens into the category of adult.
I’m lookimng for the kind of women in my backed to spend more than nufe time with on the my weekend ‘s and also throw the rest of my with in the near feacture in my sake as much for her as well and don’t if she reject my ass so many people uselee do on my be half. so many people that now don’t even act there act there age down earth and wourder why how in the hell so people down that fall in love in that town of algoma oh hell I can even find in good Old Sturgeon Bay in the feacture and beyond the hand’s of time throw out thev year’s to come where every theuy are my in general. All my life as I got old and whyour throw out my the kid’s get really thanin the year’s come ask every happen to year ago every fall apart that i acn remumber back in those ady up back than and I did n’t not go in algoma at all it was old Sturgeon bay high school class 1987 back befaore the internet so many people remumber back than because tey war here year ago.
I haven’t read all 1100 comments, so forgive me if I’m repeating someone else’s ideas.
I reply to the title question (“Is it natural…”) with another set of questions. Let’s suppose it is “not natural,” whatever the heck that means. I tend to think if something exists, then it’s a phenomenon, and it can be studied scientifically to some degree. I’m not sure how something that exists can actually be “unnatural,” unless it violates the laws of physics, in which case it can’t really exist in the first place. (There are theoretical/real particles that seem to violate what we might call the laws of physics, so even that is no guarantee. But they’re found in the universe or should exist in the universe, so they should be by definition “natural.”)
So what if it is somehow “unnatural”? Is that the same thing as evil, destructive, wrong, and needs to be eradicated? There is something quite “unnatural” about the internet. Perhaps we should dispense with it? After all, sometimes the internet is used to exploit women and is used by rapists to seek victims.
By the same token, if something IS natural, does that mean it is good, wholesome, defensible, and should be preserved? I’m thinking arsenic, snake venom, appendicitis, and cholera are all perfectly natural, but generally not conducive to human welfare.
Good point. I’ll do you one better. What if older men lusting after younger women isn’t “natural” but is instead “SUPERnatural”?
Does “supernatural” mean good or bad or other? Are men in those moments possessed by demons or angels or something else?
I have the same response to the phrase “male privilege.” I say no, being male is an honor AND a privilege.
I could hug you, wellokathyn, if you weren’t in another part of the world.
I think trying to argue whether it’s natural (by which people usually mean biological) or cultural is the wrong way to look at it. What we should pay attention to is what harm it does (or doesn’t) cause in our society. The article I think at least tries to look at the results of older men lusting after younger women, and doesn’t try to focus on the origins of it. And as you rightly point out, “natural” doesn’t mean good, and “unnatural,” doesn’t mean bad.
As for whether older men lusting after younger women is a bad thing or not…I think it can be. It depends. I’m sure when I’m in my 50s and 60s I’ll still look at 20-somethings walking down the street and think, “oo that one’s got a nice bum.” There’s no harm in that. For me the problem comes when older men harass younger women…and in my own personal experience and from anecdotes from my friends…it seems to me that most of the cat-calling and so on comes from older men. I have rarely had a man who was from my same age group call out to me in the street or make sexual overtures, but I have had that happen from older men. That is where it’s a problem…when it’s unwanted attention.
Wow. Just so much insecurity on here by both genders. And I really do not get the racist-based commentary in the posts. Just nasty. For the record, I’m 43, my wife is 37 and I have a son and daughter–and fear so much for them in this time of utter stupidity and sexual insecurity.I find it supremely ironic and hysterically funny that since childhood I’ve heard it said that men have this horrible fear of growing older and have midlife crisis looking like aged jokes. But I have to say, women have more than caught up. The headlines of female celebrities is both testament and reflective of the societal trend that women have a profound fear of growing older. Look at Demi Moore. Talk about a nuclear meltdown. And she’s a wealthy woman that can afford all the fitness gurus to keep her “young.” What chance does the average Jane have? Men today suffer no delusions about their fate. The movie Fight Club had already voiced what was unmistakably true: We will never be rock stars or porn stars and not going to get the super model babe and get an NBA scholarship. Just ain’t gonna happen. Which is fine. What you do is work hard and fine what you are good at. What is your passion? Have a life–not a fantasy and live life instead of a fantasy. For before you know it, you will be old. And women that think a 20 year old will want them when they are 30 and 40 for anything more than a causal one-night stand to them brag about nailing the MILF, they are far gone delusional. There is a genetic reason why men seek younger women when older–not old mind you–but older, like 5-10 years max. And there is a reason why women like older men. You can say all you want that there isn’t a biological reason like Hugo Schwyzer is falsely arguing, but you’d be fooling only yourself, for society at large throughout time and the planet show otherwise. Every human being, regardless of age, gender, or race, deserves love and happiness. To deny biology is foolish with this kind of role-reversed stupidity that men have done in the past. Sorry ladies: you are not a unique snow flake and will not be Kate Perry or a Victoria Secrets model. You’re an average Jane. Which is fine. Don’t be that aged joke that at the end is that lonely 30 or worse yet 40 year old women living “wonderfully single” alone in her apartment and two cats. And to you younger guys out there, don’t lead these women on when all you want is a quick lay.
“Men’s sexual desire is driven by culture, not evolution”
No just no. What a load of old waffle. Evolution drives everything, even culture. Why deny science and reality?
Well I gotta add my two-cents here:
I didn’t see where you picked that quote from, but for me a more accurate way of describing it would be: “Men’s sexual desire is driven by culture and evolution.” There is certainly an evolutionary aspect to it, of course. We have physically evolved so that certain areas of our body are more sensitive to physical touch than others. We have also evolved to seek out mates who would be the best with regards to reproduction. But that’s not all we are. If it were, we’d have never developed monogamy, or equated skinny with beautiful, or a myriad of other characteristics of human sexuality that are culturally specific.
Culture is, in part, a reflection of our biology, and a reaction to the physical environment. But it is also the result of human agency. Human beings do not always create cultural mores around what is most advantageous biologically. We are complex creatures, and teasing out the origin of our cultural customs is a difficult.
As a woman in her 60′s, I honestly feel sorry for men who are only attracted to much younger women or as the title states “lusts after younger women”. There can really be much richness (emotionally, psychologically and intellectually as well as sexually) in relationships with women in your own age category. However, I feel more sorry for the daughters of all of these men because on an unconscious level they are sending a message to their daughter that when she older she will not be attractive to men her own age. When she ages, she will start to fear that she will no longer feel attractive to men. Women look to their fathers as role models as to how they can expected to be treated as women throughout their age span. Parents are adult role models to their adult children throughout their life. So I hope some men will give some more thought about what type of women you are attracted to. If your young daughter only sees you dating much younger women than than your age category, it literally sends her an unconscious message or perhaps even a conscious message that when she ages and she is single for whatever reason, men will not be attracted to her. And REALLY, the attraction or the non-attraction to people our own age has to do more with how we feel about ourselves (our fears, and how we feel about ourselves) as we age than it does about age of the person we are dating. The other side of the story is, the much younger woman will grow up and eventually will have enough jewelry and shopping and start contemplating her place in the world – she will one day wake up and look at you and wonder why she is there. It happens all the time. She will eventually feel exploited although she too was exploiting but she will be out of touch with that. Because she is young and not very insightful that is why she was attracted to a much older man.
Sorry, Dee, but I could think all I want about anything and it isn’t going to change who I find sexually exciting and who I am not turned on by. I think centuries of gay people trying to be straight – and failing – has taught us that sexual desire is not something you can change through thinking that it is a bad thing.
If you ask us not to act on that desire, well, fair enough. But not to *feel* it? If your passions are such that you can control whether you feel them or not, lady, they are not passions as any that I have felt.
the article is wrong on one count: It IS about sexual attraction to the most fertile female, with the most survivability.
The trifling fact that a guy doesn’t want a baby with them doesn’t mean they aren’t attracted for the genetic reason.
Let’s make the case different. Lets say that 30-35 is the “peak” for females. All men would be trying to get into their pants, but the part of the man that can think about LONG TERM consciously, will still not want to have that baby/family with the chick. They just want to have sex with them because they’re attracted to them because of the genetic impulse to have sex wuith the most fertile and virile females. The brain that thinks rationally and in self-interest overrides this so that their attraction only leads to them wanting sex, and not family/babies.
So you can see, the reason is still the same, the whole “baby” issue is malarkey because its actually THIS issue which has changed due to SOCIAL changes and reasons, and NOT genetics that have changed.
point is, your argument is flawed because you’re putting the cart before the horse and inverting the truth about which part is society influence.
the article is inverting what exactly is the social culture influence and what isn’t. If we replace the “fertile” age range with 25-30, males would still act the same way, being obsessed with having sex with them, but not wanting children. because its the not wanting children part that the cultural and social change since long ago. The sexual desire is STILL based on the genetic aspect. That you would even argue this using poor analogies and reasoning proves this article is bull.
If over so many twenty-something year old women weren’t open to being with George Clooney, things may be different.
This is a two-way street. Men go for younger women for a very simple reason: it WORKS. Often even with women who swear they’d never do it.
I have to admit that until recently I had no idea that a significantly younger woman could be attracted to me. I am early 40s reasonably fit and must be ok-looking at least, with a bit of grey hair and a decent complexion. I do get looks from younger and older women, which of course is flattering. I recently had an affair with a woman in her late 20s. We developed a friendship and flirted with each other over an extended period of time and came together because we were both vulnerable and unhappy with our lot. So many of the things I was looking for are documented here and on other sites and I just couldn’t believe my “luck”. Of course – and how foolish I was to think it could be otherwise – it all came to an end. I couldn’t live two worlds and she rightly didn’t need to put up with the crap, especially from someone my age. Perhaps she took a second look and thought to herself – holy crap he is an old man – and I don’t blame her. In my mind I felt that huge tug between what I wanted – to feel young again, be with an attractive, intelligent, passionate woman and even father her children – against reality – financing two households, breaking the hearts of my wife and children and ultimately dying on my new wife before she turned 70 and I knew in my heart it couldn’t and shouldn’t work. At the same time my loins were telling me a different story, it was so tempting and when the opportunity really did present itself it was amongst the most rewarding and pleasurable experiences I have ever had. Of course when it disintegrated – I assume – it triggered mid-life crisis – which by the way is a normal part of male development – and I must say I have repaid the pleasure in blood a few times over. Unfortunately, my wife has also paid and many times more than me. I expect too that the other party has paid a price but hopefully grown quickly from the lesson learnt. My comments based on my experience:
I think it is quite natural for a man to be attracted to a younger woman, even if he has no intention of having children. I feel that drive is biological and the choice to abstain from having children is cultural/lifestyle based.
I think there are women who are attracted to older men – and in any age group. However, I think that when it comes to first impressions, older men are on a hiding to nothing. A man really needs to have some sort of x-factor, some aspect of his being that is perceived by the target woman to be extremely desirable and difficult to find elsewhere. It is most likely going to be something non-physical and will have to be expressed over time.
I think some older men are unrealistic in their expectations and should take a look at themselves in the mirror and in particular compare themselves with fit young men in the age group of the women they are chasing. Just remember too, that it is much easier for women to get away with body fat than men. I look in the mirror and can see stuff that wasn’t present when I was 30 and know I cannot expect to win a younger woman on physical presence and that in all reality there is minimal likelihood that I can repeat my “luck”. And in retrospect, I can say it isn’t worth it.
If I were on the hunt, I’d be definitely looking for a woman in her late 30s but I have realised I already have a woman and I’m far better off working on what I already have.
I expect criticism from the community and I deserve it. I am treating this as an important part of my therapy, being on the road to being comfortable in my own skin. Someone talked about insecurity – and hell yeah I have plenty of that, so much more than I had ever thought. And my wife? She is a great woman and I am lucky for that.
The funny thing is that those who defend big age gaps as normal always focus on the youthful appearance of the woman. Are you shopping for meat or looking for life partner? I am guessing it is the latter. I am 44 (45 in June) and my wife just turned 45. We have known each other since we were 18.She is more desirable now. Not only is she incredibly beautiful, she is experienced, wiser and more mature. She is better (at least for me) than the 18-year old version of her. Also, there was a huge difference between the 18-year old version of her and the 21 and 25-year old versions. She will tell you there was a huge difference between her at 16 and her at 18. I do agree that as people grow older, age differences mean less (until one nears retirment age). However, a 21 year old and a 17 year old is not a match. When I was 21, I did not want to date a child. I was past proms and all the other pimply teenage activities. As for sex, I was not so hard up that as a college student I needed to cruise the high schools for action. Do some of you wonder why you are in your 30s and cannot find anyone your own age? It is because life passed you by! Everyone else grew up and you didn’t.
What’s really funny is that women who attack age gaps usually talk about how older guys are “not hot” and that they only want “hot guys their own age”. It really has nothing to do with maturity differences for them and if you honestly believe that you’re naive. These women just don’t want to be approached by guys they consider “not hot” even if they are the same age. But I assure you that if an older guy is “hot” they would love to be approached by him.
And also, age does not necessarily determine maturity. I am 24 and quite honestly, I am mostly interested in 20-22 year old girls. I have never dated anyone and I am still taking college classes, so I have more in common with girls in college than girls my age. When I am around 20-21 year old girls, I don’t feel as though they are on a different maturity level than me, I feel like they are my peers. No, it’s not about youthful appearance, because the types of girls I like still have their youthful appearance when they are in their mid-late 20s. Nobody has the right to tell me I’m perverted or creepy for liking the girls I like. Most people who do that are just sad pathetic haters anyways.
“JS: Why not accept “your fate?” Wome are supposed to accept the fact that by the time we reach 40 we’re no longer deemed desirable or dateable by men. We reach a certain age and suddenly we disappear in the eyes of society. We’re supposed to accept that our shelf lives are up and that we have to make way for our younger counterparts – who we once were and one day they will be us. Society says “you’re only good until a certain age so get what you can while you can.” And if you divorce or become widowed later in life you get judged or excluded for possibly having baggage….the double standard is sickening…Many women may not have attracted guys during the 20s and 30s and you know what we had to do… “suck it up.” Now we hit our 40s, 50s and 60s and it’s okay for society to label us as “pumas” and “cougars” if we find ourselves dating younger men. I may be approaching 40 but I certainly don’t appreciate the labels. Yet a 50 year old man wants to date a 20 year old g
irl and that should be acceptable and not considered “creepy?” Society should have pity on you because maybe you didn’t get the pretty, hot girl when you were in your 20s and 30s…please. Yes I say “suck it up.” Women are expected “suck it up” and accept our fates – only fair that you men should accept the fact that as you age you should grow up and put away childish wants and desires as well. Face it – none of us gets our youth back no matter how many young people we surround ourselves with as we age.”
I wanted to address whoever wrote this because she sounds like she is letting the most extremely chauvinistic view on this subject really get to her psychologically — believe me, if you are a 40 year old woman who is half decent looking and want either sex or a full-blown relationship, there are PLENTY of guys of all ages who would NOT have an issue with your age. Of course there are plenty who would, so, basically, tell those guys to go fuck themselves. The thing is, they don’t wear a sign saying their preferences, and these days, many men are afraid to approach women because they don’t know if they will be welcome or rebuffed. Also, it might take awhile to find the right guy. Valentine’s Day just passed with 2 of my friends, one in her 40s with a guy about 10 years younger, and one in her 50s with another 50 something, both got big bouquets of roses from their guys and it’s just as exciting as when you are 16 and get flowers from your first love. (My husband got me flowers too – he and I are both 49.) Don’t let the posts here get you down psychologically – there is so much diversity in this country that you can find someone who is into you, and of course the more attractive you are, the more you can find. By the way, I do think it is OK for 20-something women to get together with 40+ men – but it works the other way too, you just don’t see it shoved at you in the media or it is treated as a freak “cougar” thing, I know of way too many successful older woman – younger man couples to let some of the comments on this blog get to me.
Thank you IB for addressing my post. I’m woman enough to admit that a lot of these comments bothered me. But what I find amazing is that your words mirrored those of a friend I spoke to within the past few weeks. Up until 6 months ago I was okay traveling the path I was on. I am single, never married, childless but felt it was not the end of the world. And I was actually ready to embrace 40. I’ve tried to take care of myself physically, mentally and financially. I’ve had to learn as I’ve aged how to be my own best company. And I accepted within the last 5 years that if I was meant to have a mate that our paths would eventually collide. If someone did not want to be with me over the long haul I would learn to be okay with that as well. But now to read posts that imply women like myself as we age have nothing to offer, can’t be wowed, are not innocent or are no longer pretty enough is infuriating. But I do realize it’s the opinion of some and not all. And unfortunately I took a job to a small area and have not seen much diversity when it comes to relationships. Perhaps if I did being on this site would be the furthest thing from my mind…LOL But thank you for your post – it helped me see the possibilities….it will also help me get back to the healthier state of mind I was at before I started reading such articles. And I will take your advice on how to handle any suitor who is not willing to accept the women I am today…
Thank you IB for addressing my post. I’m woman enough to admit that a lot of these comments bothered me. But what I find amazing is that your words mirrored those of a friend I spoke to within the past few weeks. Up until 6 months ago I was okay traveling the path I was on. I am single, never married, childless but felt it was not the end of the world. And I was actually ready to embrace 40. I’ve tried to take care of myself physically, mentally and financially. I’ve had to learn as I’ve aged how to be my own best company. And I accepted within the last 5 years that if I was meant to have a mate that our paths would eventually collide. If someone did not want to be with me over the long haul I would learn to be okay with that as well. But now to read posts that imply women like myself as we age have nothing to offer, can’t be wowed, are not innocent or are no longer pretty enough is infuriating. But I do realize it’s the opinion of some and not all. And unfortunately I followed a job to a small area and have not seen much diversity when it comes to relationships. Perhaps if I did being on this site would be the furthest thing from my mind. But thank you for your post – it helped me see the possibilities….it will also help me get back to the healthier state of mind I was at before I started reading such articles. And I will take your advice on how to handle any suitor who is not willing to accept the women I am today…
I find this article along with it’s comments are funny and sad. It’s funny because of the hypocrisy in the majority of the comments made. Like somehow the people should be protected from the consequences of the choices a person has made during their lifetime.
Example, a woman decided school, career and other things were more important than finding a compatible mate and settling down to have children, but when she’s ready at age 40 to do this, every single man in her peer group needs to suck it up and commit to her now that she’s ready. Then she’s somehow shocked to find these men don’t want anything to do with her after she’s rebuffed them or someone like them for the last 20 years.
Men say that want a relationship with younger women because they are hot or not jaded or what-have you but isn’t this woman going to eventually age? Or are they just hoping they will have died by the time she’s reached the jaded point?
As much as our society doesn’t want to hear it, the best way to find a long lasting mutually fulling and loving partnership is by find someone you can grow-up with. Yes, I said grow-up with and not grow old with. Everyone grows old, but not everyone is willing to grow-up. Being a grown-up requires a sacrifice of self instead of a hyper narcissistic focus on one’s own self and pleasures. Self-fulfillment is the death of a relationship every time, and it doesn’t matter what age either party is or if the man or the woman is older. When both parties are out for self-fulfillment the relationship will always be lacking.
Dear Hugo,
I must say I still disagree with your premis on the biology of this type of situation even though you have a very well written article. I am a divorced man 44 years old with a 16 year old son. I live with my 21 year old girlfriend and we have been dating for 2 years. At the moment we plan on getting married and having kids. While at times she can be a little immature we get along great and we love each other. The reason I disagree with your take on biology is because I seem to be driven by the procreation of our situation. When I am with my girlfriend I have this overwhelming desire to make babies. She is the only thing that stops me as she wants to wait until she gets her career going. She is very attractive and would be considered by just about everyone to be a perfect 10 so lust obviously has something to do with it and like most guys I am attracted to women in their 20′s, however she creates this pure desire in me to get her pregnant. I love kids and even though my divorce from my first wife was mutual I was heartbroken because we only had one child and I always pictured myself as a family man type dad with a large family. I guess only time will tell if I get that chance. On a side note my father is 21 years older than my mother and they raised me and my two sisters while staying together ever since they were married. Maybe it runs in the family.
what is article writers point ? to say he is gay or an older woman who even the creepiest older man is not attracted in a weird way ?
what ive seen 6 or 60 year old girl or woman act precisely the same way when it comes to male female dynamics.
Oh man….hard to know where to begin. I’m an older guy, and I am not remotely attracted to women my age. And I do not care a whit what anybody thinks about this fact. I would actually like to start a family and have children with the right woman.
I think that generally speaking, feminism is bullshit, and amounts to simple man hate. The whole “creepy” and “creeper” thing is just man hate that has grown out of vicious feminism.
The white race is headed for extinction, and people like Hugo are to blame for this fact. The idea that you can turn dating into yet another area of PC enforcement is truly astonishing to me. Don’t you people ever get TIRED of sticking your noses into other people’s business? It’s gotten to where an older guy dating a 25 year old WOMAN is called a “pedophile!” This is total INSANITY.
The perfect and self righteous goofballs here would never say squat about same sex marriage or cross racial dating….but oh my God! An older guy dating younger women!!!!! Call the police!!!!
Idiots.
Jared –
I appreciate your sentiment spelled out so clearly!
This criticism of adults of different ages becoming romantically involved with each other is bizarre and seems to me symptomatic of many, various neuroses, some of which you have described so well!
Liz
I couldn’t have said it better myself.