Men’s sexual desire is driven by culture, not evolution, Hugo Schwyzer argues. Here’s what young women are really looking for, and why we’re fools to think otherwise.
In my office, Amber is telling me a familiar story. She’s come to talk about her autobiography paper for my women’s studies class, and she reads part of her rough draft aloud.
“I was 12, and this car pulled up alongside me as I was walking home from school … the driver looked a little older than my dad, at least 40. He leaned out, and I thought he was going to ask me for directions, but instead he asked me how old I was. 
When I told him, he laughed. ‘Damn, you got some big titties for such a little girl.’ He made this gross smacking sound with his lips, and sped away. I ran all the way home.”
Amber looks up at me. “I want to know,” she asks, “why do older men hit on younger women?” She’s 20 now, tall and graceful; she tells me that for the last eight years, older men have been approaching her. “It’s not just me,” she adds, “it happens to most of my friends, almost regardless of what they look like or what they’re wearing. It makes me feel like I can’t trust anyone, like all men want just one thing. Why can’t they chase women their own age?”
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I’ve been writing and researching about relationships between older men and younger women since 2005. While the media is hyping the “cougar” phenomenon, they ignore the reality that in most age-disparate affairs the man is the older (sometimes, as in the case of Hugh Hefner, astoundingly older) partner. We take it for granted that many men in their 30s, 40s, and 50s will be more sexually attracted to younger women than to their peers. While most men and women alike are appalled by stories of adult men hitting on 12-year-olds, we still assume that men will “naturally” lust after young women just a few years older.
In 2005, John Derbyshire, a much-admired right-wing pundit at the National Review, opined:
It is, in fact, a sad truth about human life that beyond our salad days, very few of us are interesting to look at in the buff. Added to that sadness is the very unfair truth that a woman’s salad days are shorter than a man’s—really, in this precise context, only from about 15 to 20.
Remarkably, the “family values” editors at America’s flagship conservative journal let this nonsense run, perhaps because they accepted what he was saying as gospel truth: 15- and 16-year-old girls are more sexually alluring to normal adult men than are women in their late 20s. But Derbyshire wasn’t telling us a truth about women’s beauty—he was telling us a truth about the way we’ve socialized male desire.
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No one thinks babies were the first thing on the mind of Jason Statham when he started dating a 23-year-old Victoria’s Secret model, or that Sean Penn (50) is motivated by the desire to start a family with Scarlett Johansson, who’s barely half his age.
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Ask any porn site operator: the “barely legal” or “teens” sections are among the most popular niches. That doesn’t sound so troubling when you imagine an army of teen boys masturbating to images and videos of their female peers. It’s considerably different to imagine men jerking off to pictures of girls young enough to be their daughters—or granddaughters. Since Hef published his first Playboy magazine in 1953, we’ve raised three generations of men to believe that women peak in desirability somewhere between 18 and 24. For many men, that peak starts much earlier. Ask a 17-year-old how often she’s been leered at (or worse) by a much older man.
For too many men, the term “jailbait” isn’t a warning. It’s an enticement.
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Spare me the arguments from biology or evolutionary psychology, the ones that excuse predatory old guys from staring at “young firm flesh” because that flesh belongs to a woman near the peak of her fertility. The great lengths to which countless men go to avoid fatherhood suggests that the continued evolutionary imperative to “spread one’s seed” is oversold to the point of being illusory. No one thinks babies were the first thing on the mind of Jason Statham when he started dating a 23-year-old Victoria’s Secret model, or that Sean Penn (50) is motivated by the desire to start a family with Scarlett Johansson, who’s barely half his age. This is about the cultural cachet of dating a much younger woman—and about the difficult-to-deny reality that younger women lack the experience and wisdom to call their older lovers on their bullshit.
Two recent books do a superb job of puncturing the argument that male sexuality is primarily a creature of evolutionary programming. University of North Carolina professor Martha McGaughey’s The Caveman Mystique: Pop-Darwinism and the Debates Over Sex, Violence and Science (Routledge, 2008) makes the convincing case that our beliefs about male sexuality form the science, and not the other way around. In other words, men who want a reason to chase younger women are desperate to claim that what is a culturally constructed choice is really an unavoidable biological reality.
Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference (Norton, 2010) offers a systematic debunking of the idea that men’s sexual decisions are driven largely by brain chemistry. Both Fine and McGaughey make a compelling case that the actual science doesn’t support the idea that men’s sexual desires are driven by evolutionary imperatives.
In other words, John Derbyshire (and a lot of other grown men) may be sexually attracted to underage girls—but they don’t get to blame that fetish on biology.
Even if it were “natural,” there’s nothing innocent or harmless or healthy about older men pursuing substantially younger women. The cost is high to everyone involved. While a few young women may be attracted to much older guys (often because they falsely imagine themselves to be “so much more mature” than “other girls” their age), most are like Amber—disheartened and disgusted by the endless parade of men 10, 20, or 40 years older who harass and hit on them. These young women aren’t flattered. And even if they seem flattered at the time, it doesn’t mean the attention from older men isn’t doing great harm.
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Lynn Phillips, a psychology professor at New York University, did a famous study of young women (mostly under legal age) who were in relationships with significantly older men. Most of the girls she interviewed described these affairs as mutual, exciting, and fulfilling. They pushed back against the suggestion that they were being exploited, claiming in many cases to have initiated or at least welcomed the sex with older men. Phillips then interviewed a similar number of older women. Each of these was over 30, and each had been in a relationship with a much older man while still in her teens. With the benefit of hindsight and experience, these older women acknowledged that they’d been used and hurt and exploited. They admitted that their claims of maturity and sexual adventurousness were all a pretense. In other words, what Phillips found is that while there are some teen girls who are “asking for it,” it’s not what they really want. Teen girls feign sexual sophistication; men need to be able to see through that.
Kerry Cohen, author of Loose Girl and the forthcoming Dirty Little Secrets: Breaking the Silence on Teenage Girls and Promiscuity, argues that “when adult men sexualize teen girls, even just by ogling them, the girls are reminded that their worth in their world is dependent on how sexy they are.” “Girls who choose men so far out of their age ranges,” Cohen writes, “tend toward low self-esteem and depression.” These aren’t sweet coming-of-age stories. And they don’t fit the pornographic story line that young girls are eager for sexual initiation at the hands of an older, wiser mentor.
Here’s the brutal truth, guys. Teen and 20-something women aren’t nearly as interested in much older men as you may think. Sure, there are high school girls with Johnny Depp fantasies, but guess what? You’re not Johnny Depp. (If you were that 48-year-old actor, you’d be devoted to your 38-year-old French girlfriend.) Yes, some young women do flirt with older men. Some do it for validation, some do it for excitement, but a hell of a lot of them do it because guys like you have already taught them that’s the only thing that older men want.
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A true story about the way younger women really see “older men” (and if you’re attracted to 18- to 24-year-olds, you count as “older” if you’re on the high side of 30).
A few years ago, my friend Sean went through a rough divorce. Newly single and almost 40, he went back on the dating scene for the first time in over a decade. But the woman who caught his eye wasn’t someone he met online. She was his favorite barista at his local Starbucks. She was 19.
Next: The girl behind the counter
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About Hugo Schwyzer
Fight the power, you just need to live and experience more, because if you can’t see how someone older can take advantage of someone younger. Then I don’t know what to tell you. If you could…..Do me a favor when your’e 30 and you’ve had some relationships and you’ve lived a little, or better yet when you have children, go back to this conservation and ask yourself, could an older woman or man take advantage of my 21 year old daughter. Hopefullly your answer will be different
Could an older guy take advantage of a 21 year old girl? Sure. But could a 21 year old guy do the same? You bet. Anyone can take advantage of anyone really. People 21+ are adults and I think they can make their own decisions.
And really, I don’t think this whole thing has anything to do with abuse or control or anything like that. If a girl doesn’t want to be with an older man because he can take advantage of her, then fine. But then if that is the reason then why do these girls think it’s wrong for older men to even LOOK at them? Can they hurt you just by looking too? What this is really about is girls being stuck up and not wanting attention from guys who are “not worthy”. Girls don’t even like it when unattractive men their own age look at them. I’m actually pretty sure that if an older guy was super attractive like George Clooney, the girls would not mind him looking. So it’s all superficial really, nothing to do with any of the stuff you’re talking about.
I agree, esp when you are talking about women in their 20s, its a pretty patronising attitude towards adults.
This article tells me the author does not believe that young women can be mature.. its false and I wonder at what age, does the author consider a person to be “An adult”
It seems dad wants to keep his daughter for him….
she is 21 but I’m pretty sure she will have issues with her father when meeting a man even her age.
Dad will find many excuses to say his daughter the she chosed was not the good one : not a good job, too small, too big… I experienced this with my father in low. I was 25 she was 21
Also, by your own logic, it’s wrong for you to date most people your age. You say that if you’ve had more life experience than someone, you can take advantage of them so you shouldn’t date them. You say you’ve been in a relationship with someone much older and had a child. I think that means you’ve had more life experience than most 23 year olds. So then is it wrong for you to date them? Your logic just doesn’t make sense.
Fight the power,
A man old enough to be a woman’s father needs not to be looking at her, biologically it may make some sense, but we are past those times, we can grow babies in pitri dishes now. And there is no longer a survival of the fittest need to procreate. What is so wrong with him that he can’t look at women his own age. What gives him the right to think that his old ass is too good or better that the old ass woman he needs to be looking at. Young Women need these men to look up to, not to sleep with. And I just wish I knew and understood this when I was 17. What hurts me and makes me feel so angry and resentful was the fact that he did know these things. He just didnt care enough to leave me alone, and give me the opportunity to find a comparable partner. If I stay with him, when I am 40 he will be 70 (if hes not dead). What kind of sex life will I have. Ewwwwwwwwwww!!!. This is the thing a Niave 17, 18, 19 year old girl like myself didnt think about. And No you cant hurt by looking its the conversation that follows, that what fucks you. And PLEASE, STOP mentioning George Clooney, his best days are behind him, and Dude is just fucking old!
“What gives him the right to think that his old ass is too good or better that the old ass woman he needs to be looking at.”
This statement demonstrates that this has nothing to do with abuse or control and this is all superficial. Your attitude is basically “older guys are ugly, so they shouldn’t go for hot young women”. You probably also think it’s wrong for average looking men to be with beautiful women their own age.
You claim the reason you are against older men pursuing younger women is because they can take advantage of them. But if a guy just looks at a girl and doesn’t actually pursue her, how can that hurt? You admit that just looking doesn’t hurt, but you are still against it. Why are you against something that doesn’t hurt anyone?
Even if older men don’t want to date much younger women, when you see someone beautiful it is natural to be attracted and look. Do you think you’re not going to be looking at hot young men when you are 40? Again, if you think it’s so wrong, then tell older women to stop looking at Taylor Lautner. Hell, even JUSTIN BIEBER gets attention from older women. The female equivalent to Justin Bieber is probably Beyonce, who is like 30.
Just curious, when exactly is someone “too old” by your standards? 5 years older? 10 years older? 15? 20? Or just whenever the girl thinks he isn’t “hot” enough?
And again, if this is really about people with more life experience being able to take advantage of younger people, then by that logic you shouldn’t be allowed to date most people your age, since most of them have not been married or had kids like you have. Of course, you wouldn’t agree with that because that’s not what this is about.
I find it amusing that people here on the one hand talk about men being over 40 looking at someone younger as “disgusting” but have no problem with two lesbians or two gay guys making out. Here is a news flash for you…if you think people have the right to have same sex relationships, then you have a lot of nerve condemning older men or women for being attracted to a younger person. Spare me your hypocrisy.
And my guess if that if George Clooney or Brad Pitt were interested in you, you would be all over them for thier money if not thier looks.
…what does older men dating young women (or girls) have to do with homosexuality?
& i dunno about getting ange’s sloppy seconds…& maybe a young girl WOULD be all over them, this article is just stating that older men shouldn’t be going after younger girls in the 1st place.
these young girls are BRAINWASHED into it, or in their young naivety think that this is what they want. then later feel disgusting & dirty for being with an old, seedy, creepy guy.
in a same sex relationship no one is being taken advantage of (provided there isn’t a huge age difference).
& as a 20 year old, i can safely say i wouldn’t go george clooney – my mum’s already called dibs on him
refrain posting until you get some maturity !
@AN STR…I think that you have some serious growing up to do. When your mind and maturity reach your body then perhaps we can continue this conversation.
By the way, seventeen year old niece married a sixty five year old man. She is very happy with him and no is not insane or was forced into it and before you start trying to assume something in the back of your head that you have no verification for I will save you the trouble…SHE perused him. She is very well taken care of and is better off than most of her friends whose boyfriends all dumped them…
Tell me AN STR, when was the last time your boyfriend took you on a Caribbean cruise like my niece had?
Chances are that it has been a while.
most of us don’t date someone based on whether or not they can take us on a “Caribbean cruise” or not…& the women that do are obviously with the guy for the wrong reasons (if you catch my drift).
but honestly, a 65 year old man having sex with a 17 year old girl? fuck…that’s messed up. egh it’s practically pedophilia.
AN STR —
Your views are very ageist, and you seem completely UNaware that many people do not feel the same way you feel about relationships between men and women of even vastly different ages.
Your private preferences are nothing more significant than that and do not apply universally.
You are always free to say no to men you find unappealing for any reason.
To condemn men (Harrison Ford, Charlie Chaplin and many others) who love women who are much younger than themselves and to make presumptions about such relationships is arrogant and stupid.
Liz
What a pile of codswallop.
I think there is still a lot of taboo in our society about dating people that are much younger than yourself. I think this is somewhat inapropriate and you should be able to have a choice who you date without being judged, as long as they are of legal age of course!
Author: Jessy Olson Wrote
Comment:
Any 20 year old woman dating a 50 something man is going to be creeped out by his old man body! We like the money and the free ride we can get. I’ve found that men who were hot and had no problem getting a woman when he was young is more content when older and not lusting for girls young enough to be his daughter. On the other hand, guys who couldn’t get a girl…. tend to never quite get over it. They continue wishing and wanting because they never were fulfilled as a young guy. It’s sad really! You older guys checking out the younger women are usually just living something out in your mind. Nevertheless, you want to believe you could really be with a hot chick for your hotness. You are not hot and if you are,,,,,, you’re probably a movie star, duh… Also, women laugh their ass off at old men who are not secure enough to just be with a lady their own age. One difference between men and women. A woman can look in the mirror and truthfully determine the level of man she c
ould attract. Men tend to look in the mirror and never see their age…. they really think they could get hot young girls. I only want guys lusting over me if they are hot enough to be at my level. Sorry…that’s the truth. I know you guys will have your bubble broken and want to say this isn’t true.”
All I can say Jessy is on behalf of the human species I make a request PLEASE do us all a favor and do not procreate… the world has enough imbiciles without you spreading your runied DNA in it.
And before you put your foot in your mouth again keep in mind that I am 40, not rich and I have no issue attracting women in the 18+ Range (I acutally had a sixteen year old who was interested in dating me as I acutally look fifteen years younger than I am so much for your delusion that all men over 40-50 have creeped out bodies. And no that is not a delusion or a lie so please don’t bore us with a response of how I am lying and just “making it up.”
If you truly believe that love is limited to a number then you are dumber than you look which more than likely boggles the mind.
Jessy, if I were you I would seriously…not joking here…I would serious look up NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and take the test as you seem to have ALL of the symptoms.
That is not an insult…you really do seem to need help…please get it.
Holy crap. That is my ex. No wonder I was scared. lol
Things may be changing as we get older but for women some things don’t ever change. Older men always hit on us. When I was a young girl it happened and now at 46 it still happens. That’s a big difference between men and women. Several young men I work with have made comments about me getting myself a young boy toy since many men they know are with women younger than they are. I remind those young men that at my age I am still being hit on by older men and that it never ends. When I was young an older man in a near by town( 3 miles from my home town) hit on me everytime I went to that place. He always was telling me that I needed a real man and that ” those young boys don’t know what to do with you, but I do”. I was so grossed out I can’t tell you how sick to my stomach I was. The guy was just a creep. I remember telling my sister but not my dad. You see I had a father who had survived Jim Crow in the south and after seeing some things that went on in that time he was angry and a angry black man with 5 daughters is a dangerous thing. My sister never said a word just gave me a knowing look but she told Daddy. He pulled me aside and told me point blank. ” you don’t have to put up with that shit” and he was right. He told me to show that man my intelligence and he would back away and if he didn’t he told me to kill him and hide t he body long enough to find him and we would dispose of the body. True story. The way that older man treated me made me want to look for someone who was my equal my mental equal not someone who just wanted a piece of meat. That’s what I see from a lot of older men and it is their fault they are seen that way.
Men really don’t know what young women think when they are being hit on by a much older man and I don’t mean 5 to 10 years older. I’m talking old enough to be their dad older. I was out with other couples for dinner and the ladies went to the restroom. Inside crying was a young girl with her friends and they were comforting her. My friend asked her what was wrong and her friends filled us in on what had happened when some older men had hit on them. The upset girl said through her tears ” Why won’t they leave us alone. We can’t go anywhere without some old guy trying to touch us or hitting us up”. That pretty much sums it up. It’s not that women are jealous when an older man is with a much younger woman it’s that we remember when it was us and that gross feeling and the sicking feeling in our stomachs when it happened. That’s not true for all women but it is true for most of us women.
“Men really don’t know what young women think when they are being hit on by a much older man and I don’t mean 5 to 10 years older. I’m talking old enough to be their dad older. I was out with other couples for dinner and the ladies went to the restroom. Inside crying was a young girl with her friends and they were comforting her. My friend asked her what was wrong and her friends filled us in on what had happened when some older men had hit on them. The upset girl said through her tears ” Why won’t they leave us alone. We can’t go anywhere without some old guy trying to touch us or hitting us up”. That pretty much sums it up. It’s not that women are jealous when an older man is with a much younger woman it’s that we remember when it was us and that gross feeling and the sicking feeling in our stomachs when it happened. That’s not true for all women but it is true for most of us women.”
Fine, you win…older men are sick demented perverts that are so gross to look at that they don’t deserve love. Please go by your own judgement on yourself when you reach forty and never be in love with anyone younger than you are (and I mean even one year younger…they are younger than you are so its sick; numbers rule here and as a result it is number based. If they are younger than you are its perverted) . Remember you are a sick demented pervert for doing so.
But… here is the thing…all of you women who get screwed over by that 18-21 year old that dumped you like a bad habit for something hotter when you got pregnant or whatever other issues you came up with….you got what you deserved. Please don’t whine n’ bitch of how an older man is sick to look at and and then start crying croc tears when the younger guy you dreamed of went after someone who was hotter than you. If YOU have the right to not date someone older and think it is sick physically then HE has the right to dump your ass when he finds something physically better. Your boyfriend saw that you weren’t good enough for him physcially so he went after something better. Deal with it.
Remember according to you what you look like physcially is all that matters in a relationship. This is your reasoning and I am simply going to the full brunt of it. If you think that it is stupid then perhaps you should rethink how stupid your comments are. And don’t try to start breaking the rules of logic now that they came back to bite you in the ass. Don’t make comments of how I am in idiot when you made idiotic statements thinking that all older men are worthless to bother with.
So in short if those younger girls complain about how badly they were treated by older men and how sick they are, then don’t expect me to cry too much for then when that 20 year old dumps them like a bad habit a week after he finds something hotter.
First let me say that I think you have me confused with Jessey Olsen which you so adamantly castigated in your earlier rant. I did not say that as a man of 40 you were old and disgusting and gross and undeserving of love. I was referring to the man who confronted me as a child. His behavior towards me was gross and innappropriate. To me at that time an older man was 25 not 40 and anyone in their forties would have made me say ewwwwww. You seem to have a lot of pent of anger over this and as I read and reread your statement I have come to several conclusions. One you could not have read my comments at all. If you had you would have read that I myself am older and therefore do not see you as a older man gross and unattractive at all. And two you seem to be looking for a younger girl to validate your sense of self. This is what this article is all about. The author is stating that men in society today are being taught that a young girl is the penniacle that all men are striving for and somehow it has to do with biological needs…. bull. Why is it that SOME men see themselves being only valued by how young of a girl they can attract? In your statement you say that you have attracted a girl as young as 16 like this is something to be evied. It is not. If you had said that you were dating a younger woman of 35 or 30 no one would see you as some sort of pervert and yet you would still be the subject of envy by men of your age group. But you seem to be targeting girls of a much younger age and then are appalled when you are treated as if you are a child molester.
And what is it that you are attracted to in such a young girl? Their wisdom, their knowledge, their professionalism, their success? At 17 what is it they have attained to see them as such a alter of desire? A high school diploma? It is none of these it is only their sexuality and lack of knowledge and experience. They do not have enough life experience to know that you are not attracted to who they truly are? They do not yet know that you won’t even know who they are by the time you are through with them and moved on to another young girl. You don’t even see them as human you see a piece of meat. Nothing in your comments make me think that you have even thought of the young girls you are attracted to as individuals or at least humans at all. What is it that you have in common with these young girls? You only mention age and nothing about what else you find so attractive which makes me suspect of you intentions.
Also you made comments about pent up anger I have about some man who dumped me for a hotter girl. First let me say that when a young girl is dumped by a young guy who goes after someone hotter than she is she doesn’t go for an older man. On the contrary she goes out and finds and even hotter young guy. Second, and this relates to my previous comments, I’m in a relationship with a older man. I’m the hot young thing in the relationship. We woman have always been approached by older men and will always be until the day we die. I think this is something men really don’t get because it does not happen to them as they get older. As a woman and a older woman no matter how old I get there is an older man out there who sees me as that hot young thing. Not because I’m young but because I’m younger than they are. If I was 75 there will be a 90 year old man out there ready to hit on me. But that 90 year old man isn’t looking for a 17 year old girl. This is really the point of the article and my comments. I have no problem with a man dating a younger WOMAN. I do however have a problem with a older man going after a child.
First of all I am aware of the difference between the two of you but the comment was directed to both.
Second of all, I directed the comments this way because you and several others have an extremely narrow minded view of exactly WHAT makes a person mature or ready for marriage or a relationship. You seem to think that just because a person has reached a certain number in an age that makes them somehow better or more suitable for a mate or not.
You also seem to have a very narrow minded view that the rest of the world must follow the United States views and anyone dating a person under the age of eighteen is wrong. There are many countries (including a state in the United States) where a person may marry as early as twelve. These countries have no issues with this and do not see it as wrong.
I come from such a culture where this is common and it was not child molestation to consider someone that age. When I came over to the United States, I tried to be civil and assume that the Untied States was not as arrogant and self-righteous as everyone where I came from made them to be. I assumed wrong. You country contains a people of madmen. You on the one hand have on issues with movies that gore and slaughter each, sometimes by torture (as I have read from the excerpts of the SAW movies) and yet you have issues with someone under eighteen having sex. You claim tolerance and equality for all people and yet you limit those rights when you don’t agree with them even though you might have agreed with them before simply because the law now says so. And then when someone comes to your supposed wonderful country and simply wishes to marry someone who where they came from would not be wrong, you presume to judge them as a pervert. Well, who exactly made YOU judge over anyone? Where exactly is it written that if the masses in YOUR country say it is wrong, the rest of the world must agree with you? Such arrogance.
Edgar Allen Poe married his thirteen year old cousin in his late thirties (if I recall correctly.) Tell me, was he a pervert? In France, it is not uncommon for others to have sex with people much older than themselves as they see them as experienced. Are they perverts as well? Or does fault lie with YOU for being so arrogant and ignorant as to think that you and your culture’s views must be shared by the rest of the world? I think that we both know the answer to this.
You claim tolerance of all races, all nationalities, all religions but then limit those freedoms when you think that somehow it is of benefit to you never considering that some of us have and should have the right to live as we were brought up.
As I said, where I am from there was no issue with this and I would never have been considered a child molester for even considering the idea. Of course knowing your countries laws (probably better than you do as I have seen with most Americans,) I never did anything but I was rejected as a friend by the family even though I assured them that I had no intentions of perusing anything and it was she that tried to peruse me. It saddens me that I who would have gone after a woman am considered sicker in this country than a person who had sex with the same member of that sex.
There are some tolerant people in this country but I find more often than not (from reading your blogs etc.) that you seem to think that your laws work for everyone else. This is NOT true. People in other countries have as much right to see things the way they wish as you do.
I find it also amusing that you seem to think that professionalism, wealth and success are the only things to measure a person by. Such a capitalistic view is NOT shared by everyone else in the world. Wealth, power, and success have little meaning from where I come from and so you once again arrogantly assumed everyone wanted to live a capitalistic life. Where I come from, these have little meaning as the tangibles are not so important as the person you are with. Something else that your country seems to lack.
You also seem to think that I perused her. As I have mentioned she perused me and I rejected the idea on the grounds of your country’s laws. You also seem to think that I would only go for younger women despite the fact that I was once interested with someone who was thirty-eight.
So what I am angry over is your arrogant, judgmental attitude. To be fair this is not completely your fault as it is the culture that you come from. A culture that one the one hand teaches equality for everyone and then will treat the criminals more fairly than the people who are starving to death on the street and where virtually no one will so much as look at them. A country where spirituality and kindness are pushed aside for the top dollar and the bottom line.
So in short before you continue to judge me, you might want to take a good hard look at yourself and your own country before you condemn someone that came from another culture.
I am done here.
I appologize to everyone for my poor english but as I said I am not born here.
RSM, this last post is much better. You other post were shall I said rude and you say we in the US are mad men? If you are here in America then you must abide by it’s laws. Just as I must abide by the laws of your native country. That’s basically how it works. And make no mistake I understand fully why you have not told any of us where you are from.
Let’s talk your comments about EAP. He lived in the nineteenth century and yes he married someone much, much younger. Men seem to bring up the laws from other centuries to justify their acts. That being said, let me say this: there is a reason why that is not the law today. The main reason is that at the time in which Poe lived there were individuals who were involved with rather inappropriate dealings with children including the selling and bartering of children for the purpose of prostitution and other things. Then they would marry the child or worse to cover up what they had done. To solve this problem laws were inacted. Just so you know when a law is passed it is usually done so because some one did something they shouldn’t. I sure that is true no matter what country you come from. BTW I don’t think we as American’s try to enforce our laws on other countries. But you much know that w hen you are in another country you much do as the Roman’s do. I can’t preach the gospel of Christ in your country but you can worship Allah in mine is an prime example of just how tolerant we here in the US are.
In response to this I was not being rude, you think this becuase you cannont handle the idea that your ways are not the end all be all. It is not I who had an issue or had an “I’m right and your wrong attitude” because I already said that I respected your laws even though I did not agree with them.
The reason I am so angry is due to the fact that several of my brothers in the place where I came from have married women who were twelve some of whom were thirty at the time. In short you are calling my family as how would you say a bunch of perverts! I love my family very much but YOU who call me rude just finished calling my brother’s who are far more loving than vitually anyone I have met in the United States “mentally deranged!” Tell me, how else would you expect for me to act?
Now as I have said before I considered the laws of your land and abided by them as that is what you believe. But tell me something Lesa, did once, just once did that line of thought enter into your head? No you not only said that all people who did this were perverts (as you are pointing out in your line of thought) but never considered that feelings of anyone else outside of your country or upbrining. I call that arrogance because it IS ARROGANT. You and your culture are so arrogant that not only can you NOT look at another’s perspective, you also condemn anyone who does not share your views by as you say that it must be wrong. You talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and yet forget the line Judge not for fear you will be judged? Well you just judged my family as perverts.
You are also mistaken in thinking that in Poe’s time that somehow they were “less evolved” than the United States. I hate to brake this to you but your justice system is MORE twisted that it was 100 years ago. If you don’t believe this then why don’t you take a visit to one of your prisons and see how many criminals there are compared to 100 years ago? This indicates not a system that DOES work but one that DOESN’T.
Also I have no clue as you would say that the people in this country are tolerant of Muslims but most of the people in your country are FAR from tolerant. From what I have been told by people they see Muslims as terroists (sorry about spelling and no I am not Muslim) who need to be put out of your country and who are going to “burn in hell”. Where is all of this tollerance you are talking about? In your country it took the African American commuinty over a hundred years to even be able to sit at the front of a bus and to this day they are still having issues with this in some states. The Spanish community is seen (and I appologize to all who are of Spanish decscent) are considered “Trash that needs to be dumped and sent back to their own country”. The Europians came and took all of the land from the Native Americans and gave them back very little. Your entire contries history is based off of bias, intollerance, selfishness, and ostricizing anyone who does not fit into the W
ASP mold despite the fact that it was supposed to be a place where “All men are created equal.”
The only reason that you think the United States is tollerant is becuase it is tollerant to people who act and think like YOU. Anyone else is branded as evil, perverted, God rebelling, or needs to be swept under the rug for the scum that they are.
This is why most other countries do not wish to have the United States involved in their countries. The United States or rather many in the United States do not “practise what they preach.” After all are you really going to sit there and talk about how loving the Untied States is to children when you made abortion legal? I would hardly call the murder of MILLIONS of unborn children “loving.” They may have barted children but they certiainly did not put drills through their heads (I have seen abortions so I know) in order to satisfy their over obsession with sex.
RSM, would you be attracted to a girl as young as 12? just because it’s considered ok but your native society, it doesn’t mean that it is right. would you be ok with having sexual feelings towards a 12 year old?
And where is the bright line? when does a child turn into a woman? the law says 18. What do you say? and why? I’d love to know….
Well according to where I come from when the person is mature enough physically to have sex. Women it’s when they can have…how do you say it…when they have a period? Men its when they can ejactulate. Usually this is around the age of twelve hence the reason it is allowed at this time.
You would call this puberty I believe. Where I come from it’s maturaty sexually. For obvious reasons you could harm someone before this so it is not allowed although in cultures years ago it was. In fact there are many countries that allow this and in fact it is allowed in the state you call West Virginia for a man or woman to marry at age thirteen. Correct me if I am in error of this.
Keep also in mind that where I am from the divorce rate is much lower. We don’t usually abandon our mates at the first sign of trouble. This is why you have so many issues with marriage in the United States. Very few people from what I have seen have any loyalty. As you pointed out John, the divorce rate in your country is over 50%. While I will not go into my views on why as I do not wish to further offend anyone, the reasons I think are clear.
I what I will say is part of it is due to the how shall I say…me-istic view on life. Your country simply has too much focus on self which is sadly spreading.
Where do you come from?
*Smiles* I knew that question would how you say in your country “come up.” I would rather not go into that as I miss my home greatly and in fact talking about it now was a mistake as it only brings up that I am not home. Needless to say that currently I am in the United States but my home is not here nor is it on the Western Hemispher. I appologize for not going into any further information but for now I would like to leave it at that.
What I do know is that my brother contacted me and I be going home soon. I am glad as I miss my father, mother and brother greatly
I’m sorry you can’t or won’t answer. I’d love to know more about the culture. I think it’s important to have more than a US centric understanding of things.
@RSM Just because it’s a law, doesn’t make it right.
just because someone is ready for sex PHYSICALLY (i.e. they menstruate/can ejaculate), in no way does this mean they are ready for it mentally. & even so, a girl is still developing physically when she has her period for the 1st time – she still looks like a CHILD. & you don’t find it disturbing that men are STILL attracted to them?
You answered your own question. But RSM was talking about sixteen year olds not eighteen year olds, thats a big difference. And even at eighteen use some common sense. I have a friend who married a much younger woman. She was 18 when they met. But he had the common sense to wait until she was older and had at least completed college before he persued her. He was very much aware of that ” dirty old man” syndrome.
The divorce rate in this country is somewhere north of 50%. And the majority of those divorces are among couples that are close in age. So predicting success by age alone is just stupid. I was married for 23 years to a woman 2 years my junior, and it was horrible. I stayed in because that’s what society says you should do. It was horrible. We split a few years ago, and I’m now actively dating.
I am 49 years old. I’m not ripped, but in reasonable physical shape. I live a modest life (no one is after me for my money!). In the last 3 years I have dated, and had satisfying relationships with, women that range in age from 18 to 40. Yes – some of the women I’ve dated are younger than my oldest daughter. So what? Those of you that say it’s creepy – can you tell me why? Is there any better reason than “it just is” or “they are too young to make that kind of decision” or “the older male has an unfair advantage”? Ridiculous again. The law regards an 18 year old as an adult; responsible for her own decisions; she can sign contracts, be sued, be put to death for her crimes, and serve in the military. Why is there a need to protect her from me? If that’s really an issue, then maybe the best solution is to raise the age of majority (and the age of consent) to something more palatable – maybe 25? 30? What do you think? Or here’s a better idea – how about a higher age for just women? Since they need to be protected more? Stupid? Yeah.
And regardless of what some readers think – there is an evolutionary component to this. The survival of the species depends on men coupling with women that can reproduce. That means that younger women have the edge. Also, men can sire children well into their 70’s and 80’s, while women are all done earlier – often much earlier. You can reduce the effects, but you can’t fully legislate or debate these responses away from the men; they are hard-wired that way. Sorry feminists, but that’s the way it is and that’s the way it will always be.
I am currently seeing a delightful woman who is 27 years younger than me, and we are talking about marriage. This marriage cannot possibly turn out any worse than my first marriage. Will I die first? Probably; we have talked about that and we have a financial plan for her protection. We both want children, and we get along wonderfully.
I agree that the older partner (usually the man) has more responsibility to ensure that the younger one doesn’t get hurt. But the failure of many older partners to live up to that responsibility is not a good reason to proscribe an age-gap relationship for everybody.
Ok John, let me say this. If you really think about it did your first marriage not work out because of the closeness in age or because the two of you were not a good match? Second what does biology have to do with it anymore. I hear that tired old excuse all of the time. At 46 I’m still able to concieve and produce viable offspring. Plus the new medical evidence now supports the idea that although it was once thought that a older mother produced more genetic defects now we know that older father can produce even more genetic defects than women. And that such developmental issues as Down Syndrome can be developed when the mother is young not just because the mother is older. Really it’s all a crap shoot. And think on this. Last year at work 10 couples who are my age were pregnant and delivered healthy babies. But I will say this: congratulations and I hope everything works out for you.
Biology and medical evidence may not have anything to do with it anymore – but the wiring in an man’s brain will always be geared toward a woman that can produce healthy offspring. That’s the whole basis behind sexual attraction. And the simple fact is that – while there may be a loss in sperm motility etc. for an older man with a corresponding decrease in his ability to produce offspring – the older woman is completely barred from reproduction once she reaches menopause.That makes her less sexually attractive. Don’t blame me – I didn’t design the system – but that’s the way it is.
Yes men can sire children well into their 70′s and 80′s. But sperm declines in physical health after a man reaches his mid 30′s or so. It is much safer to have children for a young verile man, otherwise nearly half of an older man’s embryos will spontaneously abort. It is true that women are sexually attracted to younger men the same way that men are attracted to younger women. There are some hollywood actors who are older, but the most attractive ones are always in their mid to late 20′s, while the most famous and beautiful actresses are in their early to late 20′s. Men don’t age as fast as women, but that doesn’t make it biologically ideal for an 18 year old to date a 40 year old. Older men who do this take the young women away from young men. What’s wrong with you dating a 30 year old instead? They are no less attractive at that age.
An 18 year old girl, no matter how much you might like to believe it, does not know what she wants yet. She is vulnerable and naive, and so are teenage boys. They can make adult decisions, but they are obviously not as wise or educated as you. Not to mention that your daughter must be repulsed.
Very wonderfully explained. I was married to a woman for 17 years who was five years younger than me and it was horrible. I am 56 and dating women from Russia and Ukraine and they have no issues about age difference. The age difference doesn’t even cross their minds. I am in love with a 28 year old woman who takes such good care of me. I was a multimillionaire but went belly up three years ago so now have very meagre means. This doesn’t bother her at all and she has no interest in coming to USA just because it is USA. We plan to live in India and costa rica. We plan to have a child and my view is that I will die much before she will so why not leave a legacy behind and each time she will look at the child she will think of me too, besides it is so soul satisfying to raise a child.
I would really like to speak to John and RSM’s comments as I wholeheartedly agree with them. While I was born and raised in the United States, I come from Indian background where age gap marriages are in fact (or at least WERE…even Indian society is leaning towards what is considered “modern” gradually hence lower age gaps) encouraged it has been like that in my culture for thousands of years, despite what people think of it being right or wrong. And no I am not in favor of forced or child marriages. But there was a time women got married at 14 to men 10 years older than them. The reason why this isn’t the case anymore is not because it is inherently harmful for teenaged women to be romantically involved with a (keyword) DECENT man (not some perv just after sex) is because priorities have changed for younger people these days as we want to pursue education, career, etc. It’s a sociological issue, nothing else. I realize the point of this article is focusing on “lust” and how that is bad, but really the fact is that it is wrong to be sexually abusive regardless whether it is an older man against a younger woman or a younger man against a woman who is his peer, or even vice versa with the woman being the perpetrator (yes IT HAPPENS! women aren’t anymore angels than men). And, as a girl and a young woman, I can’t begin to vent and describe how ABSOLUTELY frustrating it is to be denied the right to be seen as a fully functioning and capable human being and not someone with a mental disability who needs constant protection, in fact protection to the extent it becomes suffocating and you can’t even live your own life. If, as a 14 year old, I were in love with a 24-30 year old man, so be it. If he were a decent man, he wouldn’t lust after me he would care for me as a friend, and if it were meant to be, we’d marry when I came of age. It’s that simple. Articles like these only promote mass hysteria so that adult men think to completely segregate themselves socially from young girls/women not in their family because of some paranoia that will label them perverts. I think we need a healthier approach to issues like these that are more focused on the actual violence/abuse itself than a large-scale blanket generalization based on age. Our obssesion with age in American culture has become so twisted, it’s frightening and sick, despite the fact we are always calling ourselves so much more “advanced” and “liberal” than eastern societies (who so obviously need our help and influence to be more civilized don’t they?) I’m frustrated with this “western is superior” point of view, even though I was born here and lived here my whole life.
After reading your comment and words, I decided to respond as it were.
First of all thank you for your kind words; they mean much. I have known people from india and they have always been a polite and kind people, you are no exception thankfully even though you were born and raised here. I can only imagine how difficult it is. I too share your views in many ways. It saddens me that your culture like all others are being destroyed by the…how did you say…westernized view. I have come to the conclusion that this me-istic attitude of others is doing far more harm than good.
I also share your views that men or women should not simply have sex because they have lust and that is selfish. Marriage is about giving to the other and not taking which is why the divorce rate is so high in the United States. The destruction of their families is the result of their own selfish pride. Marriage can NEVER work if the two people refuse to care for the other more than themselves. This requires sacrafice of your own agenda and putting aside all petty pride for the welfare of others.
In the case of the Untied States where pride is king, famiies cannot survive and will not be able to. But sadly as you point out, it has become how you say…sick and twisted.
In addition there is a severe hypocrasy (sorry about spelling.) You see what I failed to mention is that the mother of this sixteen year old rejected the idea of a relationship despite the fact that she married her husband when he was seventeen and she was thirty five. It was also known in the family that chances are that this man molested his own daughter when she was two (there was a police report made at the time but the laws were different back then.) So despite the fact that it was fine for them it was not fine for me or her daughter. But I have come to expect this in a country where on the one hand they teach that adultery is wrong and both male and females cheat over sixty percent of the time. Where they claim to obey the laws and yet have no issued cheating on their taxes. There is no honor nor kindness nor understanding amoung many Americans.
This is one of the reasons that I have never married over here. Where I come from viginity was something that was honorable. Saving ones self for marriage was repsected. Here it is mocked and treated with contempt. I fail to see how having control and dedcating ones self to another for them alone is foolish but it is to the United States. As a result, I sadly cannot find anyone who has not been with at least a half dozen men or more.
In any event I agree with you in much of what you have said. Please do not continue to be frustrated as you are not alone in how you feel. There are others.
RSM, are you saying that where you come from, these older men (in their 30s) who are marrying young girls have NEVER had sex before, & are virgins? they don’t loose their virginity until they are over 30? wow!
are you a virgin? i take it you’re not married?
Gee the pedophiles are coming out of the woodwork.
Better go back in there because we parents are going to shoot you if you try to enforce your views of 12 year olds as easy pickings again.
I wont intellectualize it like you do or get fancy numbers to prove my point or yours.
There is no compromise when it comes to my kids or even the kids of other people.
Don’t belittle us just because we are not pedophiles like you.
We pack big guns.”
I will happily leave your country once I can but promise me one thing Bong…PLEASE STAY HERE. Please don’t ruin the rest of world’s freedom for your narrow minded views. I can see now why you do not wish to “intellectualize” as you obviously have no intelligence to intellectualize with.
I would continue this but I would hate to…how is it put “continue to go into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. So please go back to “chawin” tobacco or slopin’ the hogs or shooting whatever you use that big “shootn’ gun” for.
PS I took the liberty of correcting some of your grammatical errors. At least I have an excuse as I was not born here.
“Author: Lesa
Comment:
RSM, this last post is much better. You other post were shall I said rude and you say we in the US are mad men? If you are here in America then you must abide by it’s laws. Just as I must abide by the laws of your native country. That’s basically how it works. And make no mistake I understand fully why you have not told any of us where you are from.
Let’s talk your comments about EAP. He lived in the nineteenth century and yes he married someone much, much younger. Men seem to bring up the laws from other centuries to justify their acts. That being said, let me say this: there is a reason why that is not the law today. The main reason is that at the time in which Poe lived there were individuals who were involved with rather inappropriate dealings with children including the selling and bartering of children for the purpose of prostitution and other things. Then they would marry the child or worse to cover up what they had done. To solve this problem laws were inacted. Just so you know when a law is passed it is usually done so because some one did something they shouldn’t. I sure that is true no matter what country you come from. BTW I don’t think we as American’s try to enforce our laws on other countries. But you much know that w hen you are in another country you much do as the Roman’s do. I can’t preach
the gospel of Christ in your country but you can worship Allah in mine is an prime example of just how tolerant we here in the US are.”
In response to this I was not being rude, you think this becuase you cannont handle the idea that your ways are not the end all be all. It is not I who had an issue or had an “I’m right and your wrong attitude” because I already said that I respected your laws even though I did not agree with them.
The reason I am so angry is due to the fact that several of my brothers in the place where I came from have married women who were twelve some of whom were thirty at the time. In short you are calling my family as how would you say a bunch of perverts! I love my family very much but YOU who call me rude just finished calling my brother’s who are far more loving than vitually anyone I have met in the United States “mentally deranged!” Tell me, how else would you expect for me to act?
Now as I have said before I considered the laws of your land and abided by them as that is what you believe. But tell me something Lesa, did once, just once did that line of thought enter into your head? No you not only said that all people who did this were perverts (as you are pointing out in your line of thought) but never considered that feelings of anyone else outside of your country or upbrining. I call that arrogance because it IS ARROGANT. You and your culture are so arrogant that not only can you NOT look at another’s perspective, you also condemn anyone who does not share your views by as you say that it must be wrong. You talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and yet forget the line Judge not for fear you will be judged? Well you just judged my family as perverts.
You are also mistaken in thinking that in Poe’s time that somehow they were “less evolved” than the United States. I hate to brake this to you but your justice system is MORE twisted that it was 100 years ago. If you don’t believe this then why don’t you take a visit to one of your prisons and see how many criminals there are compared to 100 years ago? This indicates not a system that DOES work but one that DOESN’T.
Also I have no clue as you would say that the people in this country are tolerant of Muslims but most of the people in your country are FAR from tolerant. From what I have been told by people they see Muslims as terroists (sorry about spelling and no I am not Muslim) who need to be put out of your country and who are going to “burn in hell”. Where is all of this tollerance you are talking about? In your country it took the African American commuinty over a hundred years to even be able to sit at the front of a bus and to this day they are still having issues with this in some states. The Spanish community is seen (and I appologize to all who are of Spanish decscent) are considered “Trash that needs to be dumped and sent back to their own country”. The Europians came and took all of the land from the Native Americans and gave them back very little. Your entire contries history is based off of bias, intollerance, selfishness, and ostricizing anyone who does not fit into the WASP mold despite the fact that it was supposed to be a place where “All men are created equal.”
The only reason that you think the United States is tollerant is becuase it is tollerant to people who act and think like YOU. Anyone else is branded as evil, perverted, God rebelling, or needs to be swept under the rug for the scum that they are.
This is why most other countries do not wish to have the United States involved in their countries. The United States or rather many in the United States do not “practise what they preach.” After all are you really going to sit there and talk about how loving the Untied States is to children when you made abortion legal? I would hardly call the murder of MILLIONS of unborn children “loving.” They may have barted children but they certiainly did not put drills through their heads (I have seen abortions so I know) in order to satisfy their over obsession with sex.
Also, I would not get to judgemental over the “child prostitution” as you have no idea about what those families are going through. Many of these families does this becuase they have no other way to survive. Tell me Lesa are YOU going down to where this is happening to taking care of all of these children? You condemn those who do this and then wash your hands of those children who you claim to care about so much. You would stick them into a foster home and forget about them. So please do not come here talking about how evil this is until you overcome your own evil of sweeping the children of your own country under the rug when it suits your purpose.
I don’t sweep children of my own country under the rug when it suits my purpose…..I counsel them. As a licensed therapist in mental health I work with the children who have been abused and used by men and have also worked with women and men who have been the victims of abuse. In this country we don’t sweep them under the rug we get them help and as far as the foster care system goes that system does every thing it can to reunite children with their families when it is possible. I have also work with immigrant children who have been in those “marriages” and child brothels who have escaped and been brought here. There are literally thousands of programs nationwide that address the issue of child abuse in this country. If you would read some of the stories on this website you might just find out about some of them. Again you are making comments without knowledge.
You are evading the question…please answer it. How can you say your country has love of its children when it approves of abortion and allows the slaughter of millions of them every year? You on the one hand have an issue with the abuse of a child but support a country where millions are slaughtered every year in this fashion ? And you wonder why I think your country is full of madmen when it allows this? If you are so against children being abused then why don’t you stop the mudering of them first?
I also have a second question for you.
You tell me that “when in Rome do as the Romans do.” Which means acording to your view you say that I should respect your laws which I do.
But suppose for a moment, that you came to live where I am from where the law allows this (not saying that you would but for how you would say for the sake of the arguement… tell me would you respect the laws even if you did not agree with them or would you try and intervine?
If you say yes then may I suggest you acutally make the changes in your “Roe vs Wade” case and save all of those unborn children rather than masking the murder with the excuse that its a womans right to choose.
You also are in error in assuing that everyone in this arrangement is abused. There are some in all locations but that is no different in your country. Abuse is not based on age but all people in all walks of life are abused in some way or another. Trust me I have been in both locations and people in this country are for more abused than where I am from.
And you are evading what your country of origin is from. Please either tell us so we can have an actual conversation about laws in each, or let’s move on.
I understand…..the truth that your country allows the slaughter of billions of innocent children is a hypocrisy that you find too hard to swallow so you want to evade the question. A bitter pill I understand but it IS one that you are avoiding. The question of where I am from is trivial compared your countries approval of the mass murder of its own children. It once again shows your arrogance in doing this by comparing as though my avoidance of the question of my origin were on the same levels as this atrocity.
Well it’s not going to work. You know FULL well that it is an atrocity but are too stubborn and arrogant to admit it. As I said a bitter pill to swallow I know. But one that you are going to have to come to full recompense on.
But you are right about one thing…we are moving on as I refuse to tell you where I am from. That frankly is none of your business as we are discussing YOUR COUNTRIES LAWS. This is a topic about how the UNITED STATES feels about such things not where I come from.
Of course I have as you say no doubt that you will think that it is I am the one who is avoiding something in not telling you assuming that they are on the same level. Well as I said before…where I am from is trivial…the slaughter of billions is not…if you cannot see this then that is your problem not mine.
In any event we are done as you refuse to acknowledge this. If you cannot see how trivial the marriage of an older man to a young woman is compared to the legalized slaughter of billions of infants then we have nothing more to discuss as you and your country need far more help than I can provide.
And since I know Americans cannot stand NOT having the last word I will concede and allow you and Lesa to have it and tell me how wrong I am when the evidence clearly shows that I am not.
Take care.
Not the point dude.
There are abortions. Yep there are.There would be far far far less if this country would get it’s shit together about birth control, social support systems, sex education and universal health care. Duh.
There are issues with aging in this country.
There are issue with healthcare in general in this country.
I’m not at all against age issues in marriage, I’m not arguing that. Some 21 year old wants to marry a 60 year old? I don’t give one damn so long as they are happy.
Now….16 and 50 I have more of an issue with MOSTLY because we don’t teach 16 year olds how to deal with any issues of maturity.
I’m a big believer in cultural relevance and that sex is socially mediated.
I’m arguing that you keep slinging around how great your country is, when you won’t share the country so that we can avail ourselves of support/policy/information! Let us in on the awesomeness of your country! Have an actual conversation with me instead of laying hyperbole out about abortion, cause we get it. You don’t like it.
Help us figure out how to change the culture so we can significantly minimize it’s impact.
I wasn’t evading any question but what I was trying to say, which obviously went right over your head, is that it happens here and I help those who are here. That’s my job. BTW I never made any statements about child prostitution I was referring to why laws were established in the 19th century regarding how young someone could get married and child prostitution was one of t he reasons the laws were changed. Do you even read the comments or do you just rant?
Umm, excuse me!!! It is you RSM that is evading the question posed to you earlier. You spoke about virginity being a virtue and that the U.S. mocks it, so someone asked you if you were a virgin since you must not be married? They also asked “so you mean to say that these 30yr olds that marry 12yr olds stay virgins until their wedding day?” Men don’t have sex before marriage in your culture right? Answer that and stop evading the question.
I disagree with Mr. Schwyzer. The assertion that the older man/younger woman phenomenon, if you will, is dispelled by the turnoff a woman of twelve felt once. Maybe she had not began to embark on sexual curiosity. Maybe catcalling and lust have nothing to do with being the object of desire. If porn sites teen sections are inundated with traffic then it seems true there is an interest.
But those sites are normally showing older men with the teens as a big part of the offering. Rarely are they “rape” scenes. They are two or more willing participants enjoying each other. The point that is missed in the above article I believe is investigating the divorce rate, especially involving college equally aged men and women seems to be extraordinarily high. It’s high everywhere too, not to be mistaken, but there’s just the fact that boredom sets in and men seem to find immediate titillation and hope in thinking of someone younger. The cougar thing is just an equal opportunity invented trend. Yes it does in fact have a short term charge but there’s nothing to show an ongoing cultural interest in staying in a monogamous relationship where the woman is significantly older. And usually the disinterested party is the woman.
The reason why many women will find long-term success with an older man has many aspects. first and foremost the woman will be the object of desire, always the little girl, always fresh. And before someone discredits this with the idea that men will just use the woman and move on, that’s plain silly. This discussion cannot be conducted in two different arenas. It’s not about thrill-seeking hit and run sex participants. If it is then it holds no traction with anyone. These people are out for “new” sexual partners. They will move on from younger, older, white, black, asian, skinny, curvy, well,point is made.
This discussion to be fair has to be about those looking for monogamous long-term involvement. The women get their man that looks at them with the glean in his eye. They hope they a wiser mate. The man gets his catch. It reinvents him. It makes him significantly more proud. There is both cultural and historically evidence of this. There were U.S. Presidents taking 20 year-old wives. Certainly something that was looked upon, even spoken about, but absolutely not scandalous. Throughout time it has been accepted. And with valid reason. And this notion is not to tell equal age couple that they’re wrong. Just as interracial relationships have significantly increased in number, homosexual relationships, those between diverse cultures, there is no formula that is the only one. But to dispel the older man/younger woman coupling as a mythical perversion and an unwelcome come on by dirty men is just plain inaccurate.
The point of talking to women in their 30′s about their feeling used in their teens by older men also falls short of having real substance. A man of 40 involved and successful with someone 25 seems normal. Men have always been a decade at least slower in the emotional maturity department for example. A 40 year old man shouting out of the car at a girl of 12 is plain wrong. It’s not evidence. It’s self serving in fact to make a point. If the woman was even close to being an adult would she be walking on the street in 12 year-old clothes?
Oh well. I’ve over-stayed my welcome. My wife is half my age and is furious that I’m still up typing. That’s true. Not for effect. She hit on me at a club and has been finding her way home every day since.
I have to say that I disagree with this article. I’ve always been attracted to much older men. When I was 17 I was dating a 43 year old, and when I was 20 I was dating a man in his 60′s. Of course neither of those relationships lasted, but I don’t feel used because of it. I’m now 27 and currently married to a man that is 8 years older than me, but what I wouldn’t give to be with that 54 year old hottie (that was my best friend for the past 4 years) instead.
I just have to say as a 21 year old female who lives in an oil boom town full of single ex-cons. I get hit on by men older than my father all the time and it makes me angry, makes me feel unsafe, and absolutely disgusts me. For many of these men, the idea of sex has manifested into entitlement and they try to get into my parked car or try to pick me up when I’m walking my dog. In what world do any of them think that will work? Do they realize porn stars get paid to be that submissive and easy? What non-hooker would go for that in a creepily old man!
I don’t like being creeped on in general, but there genuinely is a difference between my college peers noticing that I look good, but not over-ogling or assuming they will get something out of it, and these crazy expectations from overly aggressive creeps.
On the other hand, if an older man isn’t creeping and treats me with respect and is decent looking I could be attracted to him. I dated a guy 9 years older than him and my intentions were probably worse than his. He didn’t infantize me and treated me like I was his age ( and I was 19) and emotionally I was fine after we went separate ways and we are still good friends.
I think they thing that bothers me the most is, like I said, the air of entitlement I feel from them and their really skewed expectation. I’m not saying an older guy can’t get a younger female and not have it be healthy, but old, unemployed, unattractive men EXPECTING something out of disrespect is beyond worrysome. OK, end rant
It’s interesting how people have been conditioned to believe what is right or wrong. You’re an adult at 21, haaaaaaa, funny, outside America you’re usually considered to be an adult at 18. Conditioning counts for most of the negative comments on here about younger and older people getting together and most of you don’t even know that your so called thoughts come from the conditioning that you’re unaware of.
We all have to follow laws, we have no choice and most of us abide by them. If we’re within the law then why the hell does it matter what two people do? Two ‘adults’ are free to choose. FREE to CHOOSE. Any age, any sexual preference. Don’t Americans bang on about freedom until they’re blue in the face but don’t those same conditioned, negative, prejudiced meddlers then try to decide what is right and wrong for everyone else?
More specific to the article, the writer makes his living from forcing his opinions on others through courses. He is not objective, he is making money, doing his job. He’s manipulating opinion because it’s his job. Then he complains that older men manipulate younger women. Haaaaa, funny guy.
Who do men of 40+ not want to look at women of 40+? Because most are unattractive. Most are fat. So they look around and see younger women in better shape and more attractive. It’s that simple. Older women do the same with younger men but it’s more difficult for an older woman do get a younger man into bed. It’s really that simple. Freedom to choose what you want is good. What you get……depends on how hard you try.
People of the same age don’t all get married for love. We all know that the unspoken reasons are usually more important to each individual than the socially acceptable reasons that appear obvious. People marry for security, to have kids, to escape family, because they’re getting to a certain age and so on. Freedom to choose.
Don’t be manipulated by article writers who are just making money. Just know that you have freedom to choose whatever you want to do, preferably within the law, and that you can do anything you want because opinions are just opinions.
Freedom to choose.
I would appreciate some input into my comment. Thanks all. Look up.
So,
The coffee shop thing … the guy being given mothers number, there are a mother and daughter who work different shifts in my local store and i believe both are very much into me…
Daughter is 22, mother early 40s i am 37 for me its a no brainer, the daughter is FIT the mother IS NOT.. although not bad looking (for her age)
Sadly.. or not i suppose, my actual girlfriend would not be too amused (23)
I have dated younger women before.. current age gap is 13.5 years and in this position so long as you treat them with respect, do not patronise and offer new experiences… I find most 20 somethings find men their own age to be mostly immature.
The girls i have dated that are younger, are bored of clubbing and getting drunk, i think men take much longer to grow out of this phase and many adult women have to date guys that are nothing but big children who get drunk.
Show them the world, give them your time and older men have a lot to offer.
It might help that i have my own company so we can do whatever the hell we like when we like…
But the girl i am with now, loves andrea bocelli (as do i), travel in europe, JZ and Beyonce, classical concert’s and opera …. a 23 year guy, is just not on the same plane as this girl..
So i do not buy that older guys have nothing to offer… experience counts for a heck of a lot
Wait just a minute people. I am 59. I like younger women. Not teenagers. Not 20 somethings. But I would not hesitate to ask a 30 year old woman out if I knew she was interested. Thats the catch. As a mature man (I hope) I realize that I cannot push myself on anyone. Like everyone I have fantasies when I see a beautiful woman. If she hapens to be 23 I just admire her beauty from a distance. I do not think its “creepy” for a mature man to appreciate sexiness or beauty. I was “young” once too. I got plenty of attention from women. I still get flirted with by women half my age. What sould I do crawl into a cave and hide?. I take care of myself and if a younger woman finds me attractive then all the better. ITs a stereotype to say that older men who look at younger women are “creepy”. If thats so then there are alot of creeps in this world, even your own fathers………
dear seedy old man,
please, stop predating on me – it’s creepy. if young girls liked old men, we’d hang out at nursing homes/lawn bowl rather than at clubs.
you may think it’s “natural” to have urges for someone my age, but let me tell you – the idea of having sex you with your saggy balls & backside is anything BUT “natural” – it’s enough to make me puke.
that, & you remind me of a seedy “uncle” who hits on me at family gatherings after he’s had a few. it’s just…so not hot. you are annoying, & after you creep me out i just feel dirty from all the seediness (& definitely not in a good way).
sincerely,
a girl young enough to be your daughter.
Brooke…I understand how you feel…and I would respect it if I personally knew you. But you dont have the right to tell every older guy to stop seeking younger women. Many women don’t mind; there are numerous posts right here from women that enjoy the attention and benefits of dating older guys. It seems you have a personal issue with an uncle that may have affected your judgment. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me who I should or should not be attracted to……