Men’s sexual desire is driven by culture, not evolution, Hugo Schwyzer argues. Here’s what young women are really looking for, and why we’re fools to think otherwise.
In my office, Amber is telling me a familiar story. She’s come to talk about her autobiography paper for my women’s studies class, and she reads part of her rough draft aloud.
“I was 12, and this car pulled up alongside me as I was walking home from school … the driver looked a little older than my dad, at least 40. He leaned out, and I thought he was going to ask me for directions, but instead he asked me how old I was. 
When I told him, he laughed. ‘Damn, you got some big titties for such a little girl.’ He made this gross smacking sound with his lips, and sped away. I ran all the way home.”
Amber looks up at me. “I want to know,” she asks, “why do older men hit on younger women?” She’s 20 now, tall and graceful; she tells me that for the last eight years, older men have been approaching her. “It’s not just me,” she adds, “it happens to most of my friends, almost regardless of what they look like or what they’re wearing. It makes me feel like I can’t trust anyone, like all men want just one thing. Why can’t they chase women their own age?”
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I’ve been writing and researching about relationships between older men and younger women since 2005. While the media is hyping the “cougar” phenomenon, they ignore the reality that in most age-disparate affairs the man is the older (sometimes, as in the case of Hugh Hefner, astoundingly older) partner. We take it for granted that many men in their 30s, 40s, and 50s will be more sexually attracted to younger women than to their peers. While most men and women alike are appalled by stories of adult men hitting on 12-year-olds, we still assume that men will “naturally” lust after young women just a few years older.
In 2005, John Derbyshire, a much-admired right-wing pundit at the National Review, opined:
It is, in fact, a sad truth about human life that beyond our salad days, very few of us are interesting to look at in the buff. Added to that sadness is the very unfair truth that a woman’s salad days are shorter than a man’s—really, in this precise context, only from about 15 to 20.
Remarkably, the “family values” editors at America’s flagship conservative journal let this nonsense run, perhaps because they accepted what he was saying as gospel truth: 15- and 16-year-old girls are more sexually alluring to normal adult men than are women in their late 20s. But Derbyshire wasn’t telling us a truth about women’s beauty—he was telling us a truth about the way we’ve socialized male desire.
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No one thinks babies were the first thing on the mind of Jason Statham when he started dating a 23-year-old Victoria’s Secret model, or that Sean Penn (50) is motivated by the desire to start a family with Scarlett Johansson, who’s barely half his age.
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Ask any porn site operator: the “barely legal” or “teens” sections are among the most popular niches. That doesn’t sound so troubling when you imagine an army of teen boys masturbating to images and videos of their female peers. It’s considerably different to imagine men jerking off to pictures of girls young enough to be their daughters—or granddaughters. Since Hef published his first Playboy magazine in 1953, we’ve raised three generations of men to believe that women peak in desirability somewhere between 18 and 24. For many men, that peak starts much earlier. Ask a 17-year-old how often she’s been leered at (or worse) by a much older man.
For too many men, the term “jailbait” isn’t a warning. It’s an enticement.
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Spare me the arguments from biology or evolutionary psychology, the ones that excuse predatory old guys from staring at “young firm flesh” because that flesh belongs to a woman near the peak of her fertility. The great lengths to which countless men go to avoid fatherhood suggests that the continued evolutionary imperative to “spread one’s seed” is oversold to the point of being illusory. No one thinks babies were the first thing on the mind of Jason Statham when he started dating a 23-year-old Victoria’s Secret model, or that Sean Penn (50) is motivated by the desire to start a family with Scarlett Johansson, who’s barely half his age. This is about the cultural cachet of dating a much younger woman—and about the difficult-to-deny reality that younger women lack the experience and wisdom to call their older lovers on their bullshit.
Two recent books do a superb job of puncturing the argument that male sexuality is primarily a creature of evolutionary programming. University of North Carolina professor Martha McGaughey’s The Caveman Mystique: Pop-Darwinism and the Debates Over Sex, Violence and Science (Routledge, 2008) makes the convincing case that our beliefs about male sexuality form the science, and not the other way around. In other words, men who want a reason to chase younger women are desperate to claim that what is a culturally constructed choice is really an unavoidable biological reality.
Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference (Norton, 2010) offers a systematic debunking of the idea that men’s sexual decisions are driven largely by brain chemistry. Both Fine and McGaughey make a compelling case that the actual science doesn’t support the idea that men’s sexual desires are driven by evolutionary imperatives.
In other words, John Derbyshire (and a lot of other grown men) may be sexually attracted to underage girls—but they don’t get to blame that fetish on biology.
Even if it were “natural,” there’s nothing innocent or harmless or healthy about older men pursuing substantially younger women. The cost is high to everyone involved. While a few young women may be attracted to much older guys (often because they falsely imagine themselves to be “so much more mature” than “other girls” their age), most are like Amber—disheartened and disgusted by the endless parade of men 10, 20, or 40 years older who harass and hit on them. These young women aren’t flattered. And even if they seem flattered at the time, it doesn’t mean the attention from older men isn’t doing great harm.
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Lynn Phillips, a psychology professor at New York University, did a famous study of young women (mostly under legal age) who were in relationships with significantly older men. Most of the girls she interviewed described these affairs as mutual, exciting, and fulfilling. They pushed back against the suggestion that they were being exploited, claiming in many cases to have initiated or at least welcomed the sex with older men. Phillips then interviewed a similar number of older women. Each of these was over 30, and each had been in a relationship with a much older man while still in her teens. With the benefit of hindsight and experience, these older women acknowledged that they’d been used and hurt and exploited. They admitted that their claims of maturity and sexual adventurousness were all a pretense. In other words, what Phillips found is that while there are some teen girls who are “asking for it,” it’s not what they really want. Teen girls feign sexual sophistication; men need to be able to see through that.
Kerry Cohen, author of Loose Girl and the forthcoming Dirty Little Secrets: Breaking the Silence on Teenage Girls and Promiscuity, argues that “when adult men sexualize teen girls, even just by ogling them, the girls are reminded that their worth in their world is dependent on how sexy they are.” “Girls who choose men so far out of their age ranges,” Cohen writes, “tend toward low self-esteem and depression.” These aren’t sweet coming-of-age stories. And they don’t fit the pornographic story line that young girls are eager for sexual initiation at the hands of an older, wiser mentor.
Here’s the brutal truth, guys. Teen and 20-something women aren’t nearly as interested in much older men as you may think. Sure, there are high school girls with Johnny Depp fantasies, but guess what? You’re not Johnny Depp. (If you were that 48-year-old actor, you’d be devoted to your 38-year-old French girlfriend.) Yes, some young women do flirt with older men. Some do it for validation, some do it for excitement, but a hell of a lot of them do it because guys like you have already taught them that’s the only thing that older men want.
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A true story about the way younger women really see “older men” (and if you’re attracted to 18- to 24-year-olds, you count as “older” if you’re on the high side of 30).
A few years ago, my friend Sean went through a rough divorce. Newly single and almost 40, he went back on the dating scene for the first time in over a decade. But the woman who caught his eye wasn’t someone he met online. She was his favorite barista at his local Starbucks. She was 19.
Next: The girl behind the counter
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About Hugo Schwyzer
So I guess all you pervs approve of Courtney Stodden and her geriatric husband?
What business is it of yours what Courtney Stoddard does? Why does anyone except her and her husband (and perhapes the families) need to approve? Just want to know…..
sorry for the typos !
Kaylee,
I’ve no doubt you are right. But older men are hurt when you scowl at them in the streets when they are enjoying looking at you. I would not for one moment suggest you smile if you don’t want to. What makes you feel that you have the right to not only tell men how they should move their own eyeballs around in their own heads but also to have the audacity to consider that your thinking of your uncle sexually makes this act somehow morally wrong? It is only moving one’s own eyes in one’s own head!
Mind you, I agree with you on the sitting too close. People should not invade other people’s space.
…what? Of course a woman would have every right to scowl at a man who gives her a perverted gaze. If he has the right to look, she should have the right to glare.
I was 54 when I married my 18 year old wife. I met her in the Philippines when she was 16, but we did not fall in love until two years later. We’ve been married 20 years, and I could not have asked for a better wife. She has taken good care of me, and I have taken good care of her. We have endured much ignorant statements such as “she is only after your money”, “she only wants a green card”, “she’ll leave you as soon as she gets her citizenship”, “you should go to jail for being a pervert for marrying a baby”. None of these, or the hundreds of other stupid statements ever came true. …..
Sure, it was fun being married to a young beautiful lady at first, but after a couple years, we never even thought about the age difference. We were, and are, just two people in love. I don’t recommend marrying someone 36 years in age difference, but there is nothing Lawfully or Biblically wrong with it. By the way, nearly ALL of the folks over the years who have said so many stupid things have been divorced at least once in that time.. some of them several times.
We have four wonderful kids, age 12 to 18 , all excell in school and sports, and are very well behaved. And, they are being taught to wait until marriage to have sex, just like their mother (wish I could have waited! haha) Will they wait? Who knows? But they have a great foundation.
And, I know some of you are going to make some more stupid remarks about our relationship, but you know what? It’s your problem, not mine. We are happy.
Congrats to both of you!
No problem at all from me, yours sounds like a good respectful marraige despite the fact you have a 36 year age gap. It’s very sad your wife will likely be a widow most of her life unless of course she remarries.
It’s funny, why the lust of an older man should be differently judged than his lust when he was younger (that goes for or women and younger men too)? If an older man feels lust for a younger woman and is not attached to any other woman why is it abnormal for him to pursue his happiness in this way, if that happens to make the younger woman happy too?
We are not talking about hitting on underage girls. We are talking about consenting adults with an age difference of maybe 20 or more years. We are also talking mostly about men who had to forgo a lot of fun in their younger years to achieve all the accomplishments in their life.
I agree with the three top reasons why older men date younger women. However, I want to add one more that nobody is talking about. If a man has kept himself in good physical shape, is healthy and attractive, stayed young at heart and spirit, has a cool attitude about trends (music, fashion, sex, etc.), and is unattached, why wouldn’t he be appealing to any younger woman? And here is my point: such a man cannot get along with a traditional woman close to his age, especially if the notion of building a family is not one of his priorities.
A woman of his age, say 45 and up would generally have a few kids, a few divorces, a few ailments, and a restricted lifestyle not to speak about her physical attractiveness. How many (soccer-) moms do you know who have time to take care of their body, their looks, and follow trends (movies, music, new restaurants, art exhibitions, etc.)? Call me superficial, but I like beauty, attraction, and excitement. How many have the time to go on trips, or party in the weekend once in a while, or attend a concert out of town, etc. We are not talking about Hollywood stars whose job requires them to stay in good shape and have all the resources they need.
A successful man who spent his life studying, learning, and working hard to arrive where he is, is entitled to enjoy the fruits of his labor and pursue his happiness at an older age; and if this means to partner with a younger woman, then more power to him and her. Unless the only reason for their relationship is to build a family and have a bunch of kids, I don’t see anything wrong in such a relationship. It might even last much longer than relationships between couples of similar ages.
And what is wrong if the older man can offer her not just stability and experience, but also a much better material life than a young man, stressed by the rat race and struggling to make ends meet, can? And, maybe, he can insure her a better future when he is not around anymore?
You are right!
By the way, I think you would enjoy wathing “Breezy” . It is a great movie from the 70′s…
I’ll add one more thing, in favor of older men going for younger women – an unhealthy amount of women over the age of 40 are on antidepressants, and unfortunately, suffer from sexual side effects. Namely, never interested in having sex. That alone, in my mind, more than justifies the idea of older men & younger women. Period.
it’s true! My ex was on them….killed her libido….I had sex less than one or two times a YEAR! Sorry women…if you dont take care of your man – he leaves…..simple as that. I’ve had sex more in the last month than in the last twn years with my ex wife..When I suggested that we try to find another medication, she said no. That was it for me……
God John you’re a charmer aren’t you? Wonder why your ex was on the anti-depressants in the first place?
Well that is judgmental. I am one of those woman, and my sex drive is rocking. Thank-you.
thank you finaly someone who understand,s that from age 13 till a few year,s ago 40 and 50 hr,s week,s are normaly for me as well as a crapy marrage to a gold digger \ yes a older man and a younger women is a good thing he offer,s more and deffnaty can and willl suport her as long as he rember,s to watch out for the gold digger,s
I would have agreed with you 18 years ago when I embarked on a relationship with a much older man – it’s only now I’m 40 & the marriage is hitting the skids that I would disagree. There is much sense written in this article particularly the bit about low self-esteem in such younger women.
Apologies my reply above was aimed at JB, you see quite in favour of age gap relationships – just wanted to give you the other side of the coin. After 18 years I’m probably one of the most well qualified people there is to talk about it. My advice to any young woman considering such a liason is be VERY wary.
The reason why most younger women love dating older men is not because “It makes them look mature” among other girls their age but older men are mature enough and can handle the relationship quite well. I was about 15-16 when I fell in love with this 25 year old. I never did like dating peers my age or similar to that because I don’t find them mature enough, they don’t know how to handle a relationship like older men do. Younger women attempt to mature quickly then younger boys. Older Men like nor hit on younger women because their young and beautiful, they find young women “cute” and very attracting.
I find that the people most outraged by older men dating younger women are single women who are no longer 18-25 or wives who don’t want their husbands to look at ANYONE younger or more attractive. And gals, as feminist as some of you are, I see older women going gaga over some 20-something year-old stud muffin ALL THE TIME. The fact remains that both men AND women are captivated by the firm fresh bodies of younger people. And why not? They’re at the top of their “attraction game”. Does anyone have a sexual fantasy involving someone old, decrepit, sick, wrinkled or obese? I don’t. I think the difference is that male sexuality has been villified to the point that it’s cliche. Anything a man desires sexually at all is deemed evil and exploitative, while anything a woman does for her own personal best interests or agenda is filed under “empowerment”. Let’s be honest here. Oh wait, we can’t.
Yes, you are so right… we can’t be honest, that is. What is further overlooked, and not mentioned, is while critics looks at ‘older men’ as the ‘gross, dirty old men,’ because they are attracted to young woman, they do not ever discuss the fact that MANY young women prey on the diminishing vanity of older men past their attractive prime. Online girls from 17 to 21 by the thousands, sending out their: “Im a college girl, wanna see my pics?” Then of course, they’ll strip for… how much? Then there is the “Age is just a number’ approach, that they can fall in love with you at any age… well that lasts how long? Oh, until you get wise, or the money you give them slows down. Women are just as, if not more predatory as they ascribe men to be. Our society was so blind to this, that most movies made prior to the 60′s or 70′s, almost never showed women, doing a murder. Why, well, because women don’t do that.
Really?
Well, Eve separated Adam from his Divinity, it was a girl, who arranged for John the Baptist to lose his head. Lucretia Borgia had an affair with her father, Pope Alexander VI, (yes, one of the catholic popes), and acted as a seductress, for her dad, who pimped her out to help him gain political power. Then we have Mata Hari… yes women are totally innocent.
“Well, Eve separated Adam from his Divinity, it was a girl, who arranged for John the Baptist to lose his head. Lucretia Borgia had an affair with her father, Pope Alexander VI, (yes, one of the catholic popes), and acted as a seductress, for her dad, who pimped her out to help him gain political power. Then we have Mata Hari… yes women are totally innocent.”
ROFL!! Ever ask yourself WHO wrote the bible? Little clue, it was not written at the time, but centuries later and those who wrote it had an agenda. Look at other religions, the Greeks for example, who did not have such a misogynistic approach.
So sorry to read of these predatory young girls who chase you around the internet, when you no doubt are surfing purely for biblical references….
I’m in my late 30s and long divorced. I get hit on by younger women all the time. I often feel guilty about it even though in every case they initiated and in a couple cases where it was more than sexual, I really like the woman. The response of the 30+ women who dated older men when they were teens can’t really be taken as gospel. I’ve literally been coaxed into sex by women then been told I was evil for tricking them— Even though I was persistent that I didn’t want to yet… I’ve learned a lesson from it all and try to keep them out of my house.
No actually Northern guy I don’t lust after guys young enough to be my son, I have a teenage son & that would just be creepy… Ick
“The fact remains that both men AND women are captivated by the firm fresh bodies of younger people”
Are you kidding ? As per world health organization in 2007, 74% of people are overweight in the US. No firm bodies here…
While I think a guy lusting after a 12 year old is a little much, I dont have a problem with any age gap relationship that is legal. Who are any of you to decide that two people are not right for each other? Sure, maybe it doesn’t work out – but the divorce rate in the USA is above 50% – so most relationships dont work out anyway. Three years ago I divorced a woman who was my age (I’m 54 now). The marriage was a mistake from the start. I’m now dating a 24 year old woman and we couldn’t be happier. We will get married – we both want children. Can any of you positively say it is a mistake? and even if it is – its our mistake not yours. I’m sorry that I’m not available for a woman closer to my age – someone who has lost the spark of youth, and may be close to the time in her life when she can never again have children. But that’s the way it is. They can probably still attract 70 or 80 year old guys. If I can get a 24 year old to love me – why shouldn’t I? I didn’t create the rules of attraction – I’m just playing them to my best advantage.
Wil I die before her? probably – we have discussed it and we have made financial provisions for her protection. I agree that there is an elevated risk for the younger member of an age gap relationship. But the failure of the couple to talk honestly and openly about the challenges – and craft a workable solution – is not a good reason to proscribe an age gap relationship for everybody.
statistics+ men who marry younger women live longer
statistics+ women who marry older men don’t live as long
statistics+ statistics can be used to prove anything
John you have a similar age gap to me & my husband – now I’m 40 & not the cute little perkt thing anymore it’s falling apart.
Sure it’s your mistake to make, but be aware that the gap between you will almost certainly throw up problems in the future – yes anyone can have problems but when you are so far apart in age there will be more than in a peer age relationship.
Are you the same John who complained earlier about his ex not having sex enough? Don’t want to worry you but at your age you will find that department will not function as well as it did in a few years, that’s nature I’m afraid. If it was you who lost patience with your ex you’d better hope your new lady is more sympathetic because with a 30 year age gap you will find in the next 10-20 years you will not perform as well as man her own age.
E has made many comments on this blog today – but this one hints at her true motive for all the negativity. E says it herself – she is not a cute perky thing anymore and it is affecting her marriage. Perhaps E would not be so averse to age gap relationships if hers turned out better? I can’t possibly entertain the notion that she thinks her rocky marriage is her fault so that leaves only one other guilty party – her husband. It seems like her husband has discarded her and she blames her age and appearance. I find it entertaining that she belittles my attempts to instill confidence in the women I date (in other comments) when she has so little confidence herself!
Will I die before my fiancee? I’ve already covered that elsewhere. Will my libido wane with advancing age? most likely – but intercourse is not the only intimate activity that couples can engage in. I have been responsible with my girl…We have talked about all of this stuff. E – we have thought of all the negative inferences of a 30 year age gap – they have been identified and discussed.
Will my relationship last? Who knows? Will it fall apart because of the age gap ? maybe / maybe not. The divorce rate is above 50% in the USA so most relationships are doomed to fail. I, for one, am not interested in withdrawing from life because of that. I have found a wonderful girl and I will enjoy her for as long as it lasts. I’m sure E can find someone who loves you – even though you are not cute and perky anymore….
Thank you for your reply John, I can see this topic is important to you as you revisit regularly, and I understand why given your situation.
Yes I do have confidence issues (glad you find it entertaining by the way), this is why I was drawn to a man old enough to be my father, something I’m only coming to terms with now. The article above makes references to low self-esteem as a reason for such attractions and that resonates with me. You yourself say that you instill confidence in the young women you date, but confidence is not something you bestow on someone (either by sex or even love), it has to come from oneself, from within, not from another.
I do have an agenda, as do you (& many other men commenting here), you may find me entertaining (always nice to brighten someone’s day) but this is my side of the coin and after 18 years of a mosty happy relationship which is now struggling mainly because of the age gap I feel pretty well qualified to commment. There is not one single other comment I can see from the younger woman (not in the first throws of passion but further down the line), although there are lots by older men telling us how it’s okay to have these age gap relationships. I thought I would redress the balance and give the other side.
Good luck to you & your fiancee, 50% is pretty high (it’s not so high in the country I live in) I can understand the “What the heck” attitude with figures like that. There is however one thing that troubles me about your posts though and that is the admission you only date younger women, it would be one thing if you loved this one 24 year old and would love her whatever her age but another that you are only attracted to younger women. She has at her age a lot of emotional growing ahead of her, which she can’t possibly appreciate (you must know this at your age though) she will change physically and emotionally over the next few decades. How will you feel when she is not young anymore? When life’s experiences grind her down? What if she needs anti-depressants like your ex? Will you find yourself longing for a younger woman? Someone you can teach sex to and instill confidence in?
I do not aim to belittle anyone, but some of your posts have saddened and alarmed me.
E- Thanks for replying! I can certainly understand your reaction to this subject – even though I don’t subscribe to it. I feel compelled to correct you on a number of issues, but only after apologizing for saying your situation entertained me. That was wrong. A better statement would be to say that I find your situation – and your subsequent reaction to me – ironic.
I never said I date only younger women. Since my divorce I have dated women from all age ranges – the youngest was 22 and the oldest was 58 or 59. I’m not interested in someone strictly because of their age. Limiting yourself to “35-45” or whatever eliminates so many people who may, in fact, turn out to be perfect for you. Intelligence, confidence, a positive outlook, and a zest for life are my primary attractants, and the reality is that, together, these four traits are most often found in younger women. That’s why I prefer them – not because of their age.
Instill confidence? I never used that term either – you did. I agree that confidence comes from within. My post said that I leave them confident – but only because they start out that way. I do not date women who are not smart, not confident, or do not know what they want. Also – for the same reason – I do not date virgins; I’m not interested in being a teacher or taking something from a person who – up to the point she loses it – believes that her virginity is the most precious and treasured thing she possesses. I guess I’m saying that I’m not a user.
I pinned my dreams to one person when I was younger, and it turned out badly. This time I’ve learned about women from all age, race, income, and professional demographics, and I‘ve settled on this one person. We have talked about all of the problems associated with an age-gap relationship. She knows about everything; she is going into this thing with her eyes wide open (in fact, she has been reading these posts, so she knows about everything you have said too).
Of course she will change – and so will I. Change is inevitable and I’m not going to worry about what might happen in the future. Carried to its logical extreme – we are all going to die, so why bother doing anything with our lives at all?
Will I find myself longing for a younger woman? is not the correct question. A better question is – Will I find myself longing for another woman? Doubtful but possible. You could ask her the same question and I bet you get a similar answer. Nothing in life is a sure thing – especially in the relationship category, as you now know.
FYI – my wife was on anti-depressants for night terrors and anxiety disorders that she’s had since she was 12. I was mildly offended that you inferred the medication was needed as a result of my marriage to her. It’s not good to draw conclusions without knowing the whole story.
John, thank you once again for your response & thank you for considering my POV. Quite a lot of points you make there so I’ll go through them on a point by point basis (okay it’s ‘War & Peace’ I’ll grant you):
I’m pleased you agree and understand the nature of self-confidence & accept your apology to me about my confidence issues (I think annoyed you & it was a knee jerk reaction) but your earlier statement of leaving women sexually experienced & confident combined with your earlier reply to me quote “I find it entertaining that she belittles my attempts to instill confidence in the women I date (in other comments) when she has so little confidence herself!” did strongly give that impression, I make no apology for this one, note that you did actually say ‘instill confidence’ there, not me. If there has been any feeling of teaching or instilling confidence however subconsciously I hope you will check yourself on this one, you sound intelligent and self-aware but we all have our instincts & with men it can often be to have power even if benign. Not just to you that one, but any guy in such a position who finds himself in such a position reading this.
I’m sorry if I read the line “I have been dating women between 15 and 25 years younger than me for 4 years” as meaning you only exclusively date younger women, you do not mention the older women in any of your posts and the line “I’m sorry that I’m not available for a woman closer to my age – someone who has lost the spark of youth, and may be close to the time in her life when she can never again have children. But that’s the way it is. They can probably still attract 70 or 80 year old guys” also gave me that impression, however I wonder why you suggest a 54 year old woman (or even younger as you suggest nearing her child bearing years) should want to date a 70 or 80 year old man just because you (one man out of the millions in the US) are not available? Why would she not date another man nearer her own age?
As for your ex wife, my aim was not to offend but your line “Sorry women…if you dont take care of your man – he leaves…..simple as that. I’ve had sex more in the last month than in the last twn years with my ex wife.” Reads to me quite offensively in tone, but accept you did not intend it to come across as so, my reaction was knee jerk to that tone and also a fear for your fiancée that you may not treat her well if things went badly for her. I’m sure there was more wrong with your relationship than sex, but this is neither the time nor the place to go into it.
I would think we would both agree given our personal circumstances this is a very pertinent and interesting issue. I do not suggest your marriage will follow mine (which is not over yet, but yes we’ve had troubles & the age gap is showing itself in ways it never did before now I’m hitting middle age), everyone is different and as you quite rightly say change is inevitable/we all have to die etc – I get you entirely believe it or not. I was there many years before you and said all the things you are saying now, to all the nay-Sayers who warned us (most of them kindly). I could tell you a few tales, like the workmen who shouted down to us from the roof they were working on to tell my then boyfriend to leave me alone because he was too old for me. None of it mattered; the only thing that mattered was I loved him. I’ve already nursed him through one near fatal illness & married him in spite of it; this all comes with the territory of being the younger partner. So you see, I DO understand very much your perspective, I know first hand that when you’re ‘in love’ nothing else matters & although I do not know her I send my genuinely very best heartfelt wishes to your fiancée. I’m glad she read my posts, I hope she is not too cross with me for taking her man to task & apologise if so (that after all will be her prerogative, if necessary).
Hello again E
I think we’ve beaten this issue to death. You are concerned for me and my girl because of what happened to your marriage. I am optimistic about the situation because of what happemed to my previous marriage ( with a woman my own age). maybe it’s best if we leave it at that. I wish this blog could last for the next twenty years so we could both find out who is right…….
It certainly will be left at that. You’ve had your say, I’ve had mine, my opinion is not driven by venom or jealousy but personal experience of the pitfalls, my friends in peer age relationships have a shared life stage experience as they grow older at the same pace as their husbands that I feel sad I won’t have, the actuality of this is much harder than the theory as with many things in life. I hope you will be very happy together, that you will not leave her too young a widow and when she is no longer young you will still love her. Yes sure come back in 20 years time & update me if you like, why not?
I guess if you are making the argument that the appeal of younger women to older men is cultural, then you should give an example of a culture where this kind of desire is absent, or at least not as pervasive as it is here.
I’m not making that argument at all. I’m saying that attraction can take many forms…and a person’s age is only one of many factors… I’m also saying that who a person is attraced to is probably the most personal of decisions – and it is really no one else’s business. The fact that person A does not approve of person B’s chosen partner does not make A right and B wrong.
I think the person who wrote this is the sick person. In todays world there are all kinds of prejudices against african americans, white americans, hispanics, asians, poor, rich, gays, non-gays, people with children, people without children and I guess now its who you date or marry! Age, can be only a mental state and if you feel good with someone younger or older then go for it. This is not to say I agree with dating underage partners. This I am against, But since when is a 25 year old woman a child? Funny all through history this was not the case and your statement that if your over 30 year old your know old, please. Sorry about what ever abuse happened to you when you were younger that caused you to look at anyone over 30 as a pervert but age prejuduce is just another sad prejuduce in our world today. Look at each individual case and quit trying to put us all in boxes.
This article was talking about YOUNG women as in teenagers…not 25 year olds. Don’t comment if you didn’t actually read it.
So where do you draw the line Nancy? the age of consent is 16 in most states in the USA. Those state legislatures decided it was okay for 16 year old girls to have sex with anyone else over 16 – so a 60 year old guy can legally have sex with a 16 year old girl (with her consent of course) … Far younger than 25.
Maybe ths solution is to raise the age of consent (and the age of majority)? How about 25? Or here’s a better idea – maybe we raise the age of consent and majority for women only? How about 18 for boys and 30 for girls? since they need so much more protection? That would solve everybody’s problems….
CASE IN POINT! Might as well restrict a human being’s right to experience life until 30 according to these mucks. I mean who cares if half your life has passed by, if all your youth and energy is gone before you really are free to pursue life’s joys in whatever way you see fit? Ha. Protection my a$$ these are miserable people trying to suffocate young people in their own miserable jealousy. And only recently having been a “teenager” can I not sympathize?
PeachyMushroom – I like the way you think…call me if you are ever in New England…I think we could have a great time
Yeah, swinging oldster time!! … Hang on, your 24 year old wife know about this????
We’re not talking changing the age of consent here – but rather grown men think about why the young woman is interested in them & don’t kid themselves.
I am 32 and my gf 20. First, she dated guys since she was 14 losing her virginity at 15 and dated both older guys and teens of her age. She feels guys her age are idiots, cheaters, and a bunch of other ugly traits. I treat her like a queen because I am glad to have a smart, young, beautiful and firm breasted girlfriend. Its the truth. If you want to know about the issue, don’t make it complex.. simply ask people. By the way, I am a mechanic and she has more money than myself. Her family has properties and businesses. Also, I entered her family’s circle and am well accepted, while other man would prefer to remain away from. In other words, it works because we both have reasons to keep each other.
i am a straight man, that would love very much meeting a good woman today. one that does not have the SHIT DON’T STINK OF AN ATTITUDE PROBLEM, and are just SO DAMN NASTY TO TALK TOO.
“The great lengths to which countless men go to avoid fatherhood suggests that the continued evolutionary imperative to “spread one’s seed” is oversold to the point of being illusory…” You are making a straw man argument. The real argument, which you are attempting to thwart here, is that men are sexually attracted to females based on inherent physiological urges and cues that naturally respond to corresponding traits in young women — beauty, youth, health, apparent fertility, availability and the physical display of readiness to mate. The attraction remains true, regardless of a man’s personal plans for avoiding or not avoiding fatherhood. The two are related and yet entirely separate. Society can only curb, contain or pervert the facts of sexual attraction which are inherent to our species. You try to claim that men pursue women far younger than themselves because society has bent them to do so. Some men pursue younger women for one reason: because they can. If there were more young women available, then more older men would pursue them. Young women are attractive to men period. When a man ages this does not change, because men’s attraction is not based on choosing the best mate for doing his taxes or planning a vacation or providing for his family. The younger a woman is, while still being old enough to conceive, so long as she is strong and healthy, the more attractive that woman will be to ALL men. Live with it. It’s just a fact. Stop getting all bent out of shape when some men take advantage of their status and cash in. Most of them don’t, and even the one’s who do, generally take quite good care of the women they partner with and the children they Father. Taking responsibility is a choice. Attraction is not a choice. Promises are promises, and sometimes they are kept and sometimes they are broken. By blaming everything on society or on Men you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Young women have no problem with using what they got to get what they want. Men are simply doing the same thing, only they are more likely to have more of what they got to get what they want when they are older, while women are less likely. Get over it.
“The younger a woman is, while still being old enough to conceive, so long as she is strong and healthy, the more attractive that woman will be to ALL men. Live with it. It’s just a fact.”
I know quite a few gay men who would really disagree with that statement.
I’m sure he meant all STRAIGHT men….and I think you knew that …..
The younger a woman is, while still being old enough to conceive, so long as she is strong and healthy, the more attractive that woman will be to ALL men.
Even if you were just talking about men that are attracted to women you’d still be generalizing.
You make some points here but no need to make sweeping remarks like that.
(And for the record “The great lengths to which countless men go to avoid fatherhood suggests that the continued evolutionary imperative to “spread one’s seed” is oversold to the point of being illusory…” doesn’t completely fit either. Spreading one’s seed doesn’t inherently mean they would stay around to take responsibility. But he does a nice job of ignoring the countless men that actually fight tooth and nail to be in their kids lives when the mother, the courts, and the very people that would be screaming murder if he was ducking out.)
In other words!! GROW UP!!!
Grow up? that’s all you have to say? maybe you should refrain from posting comments until you have something substantive to offer. Matt is completely correct. The willingness to bring a child into the world is completely different from the cultural and biological urges that create the natural attraction for younger women. Many on this forum argue that men conveniently hide behind biology as an excuse to justify their attraction to younger women (pointing out the fact that most men in this situation do not want to father children). I would argue that those men are actually the most mature and responsible of all. Imagine if all men that hooked up with younger women got them pregnant – what a disaster….
I have been dating women between 15 and 25 years younger than me for 4 years. I subscribe to the campfire theory – I leave them better off then when I met them. Sexually experienced, condifent in themselves, with no fertilized eggs and no STD’s. Anyone here want to tell me I’m wrong or immature?
“I have been dating women between 15 and 25 years younger than me for 4 years. I subscribe to the campfire theory – I leave them better off then when I met them. Sexually experienced, condifent in themselves, with no fertilized eggs and no STD’s. Anyone here want to tell me I’m wrong or immature?”
I sure wouldn’t want my daughter to date you put it that way (& I’m too young for you myself). You think it’s your role to sexually educate these women? To raise their confidence? So they aren’t confident to begin with? It sounds like you’ve got a power thing going there, to do this sort of thing repeatedly.
as a 23 year old woman, I am NOT attracted to older men (in mid 30s, 40s, 50, 60s, 70s, etc). Yeah, some are cool to be friends with (in a work related situation) but normally, I just don’t associate with people outside the 18-24 age group outside school/work; we don’t travel in the same circle. Yet, I more often than not find myself on the receiving end of twisted obsession from some men 40 and up (more so online).
What’s worse is , at the time I was 21, this 67 year old guy chased me desperately. He was a co-worker (pretty sure just a retirement job for him). He was nice, charming, very funny, and suprisingly fit ( he didn’t look young or anything), but He wore his age well. Once he came and joined me for lunch and then everyday that was sort of our thing. He would email me some funny jokes during work. Then he asked me out to lunch (outside cafeteria) and would take me to really upscale bistros just for lunch. Then he started to email me things about concerts/plays that were coming up and if I was interested in going. It really started to make me feel awkward because he was hitting on me and I didn’t even know it! He was playing the friend role.
Long story short, my car broke down one afternoon and offered to drive me home. He stayed long past his welcome talking me to death and trying to rub my hand. The next day I put in a transfer to another department. It really creeped me out because I viewed him as more of a grandfather than a boyfriend or “friend with benefits.” Why would he think I’d be interested in him? Idk.
Now, I’m just weary of older men and wish they wouldn’t try and flirt with me. It makes me cringe.
If you’d had that with a black person, would you be wary of blacks? And has something like that never happened to you with a person your own age?
Just to be clear: this guy’s actions were inappropriate. But the author of this piece is stating that older men should not feel attraction for you, not that they should not behave inappropriately. If he were arguing the latter, nobody, I think, would disagree.
Can’t we agree that inappropriate acts are inappropriate whatever the age/gender/orientation of the person involved; appropriate actions are fine; and feelings – well, you feel what you feel, and there’s not much you can do about that!
Wtf? what does race have to do with anything? I’m talking about the 40+ age gap that made me wary of older men.
No, nothing like that has happened to me with people of my own age. It seems the people I associate with just ask you out on a date.
Yes, inappropriate acts are just that.
And yes, you can’t help who your attracted to. But, is the attraction mutual is the answer..
The only thing race has to do with it is that you are now wary of other people who you see as being like this guy. You’re seeing it as an older man thing, whereas not all older men behave creepy; and not all younger men don’t. If he’d been an older black man, would it have been an older man thing, or a black thing? If he’d been black and your age, what would it have been – a black thing, or a him thing? If it had been a gay woman? – and so forth. I’m arguing that you can’t tar everyone with the same brush. But leave that to one side if you don’t agree with it.
The author of this piece explicitly states that attraction to younger women is wrong in and of itself. If you don’t find that a problem (in and of itself) then you disagree with him.
The question of whether the attraction is mutual is indeed an important one. Always. Whether both are the same age or not.
I certainly think that most older men who think that loads of young women are into them sexually are delusional. But, it has to be said, so are people who think that younger women are never into older guys. These out and out rules scarcely seem either to explain the rich reality of life, nor to be particularly useful as guides to how to behave. “Don’t be delusional; don’t be creepy; if someone (and this goes just as much for women as for guys) is spending loads of money on you, there is at least a fair possibility that he is romantically or sexually interested” seem, I dunno, wiser?
perfect tibby. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m a mid 50′s guy and I usually date women in the 20-30 age range…lilabee had a bad experience and she passes it off as as “old guy” thing. I see it as more of a “creepy guy” thing. Maybe she didn’t feel comfortable telling this guy to take a hike. That’s her problem. What would she have done if this guy was 25 years old?
I’ll admit that the percentage of 20-30 year old women that want to date me is lower that the percentage of women closer to my age. But it is by no means insignificant. lilabee does not want to date older guys – that’s her right. I want to date younger women, I know the challenges going in and I chose to accept them. That’s my right…
if you are in your mid50s and you date women between 20-30, that means you are getting the women who have been rejected by their male peers or who are emotionally messed up. it’s a fact amongst women – that only seriously damaged women or gold diggers will go for guys that old. a 30 year old man’s trash is still diamonds to a 50 year old. sorry to burst your bubble.
A fact among women? and you have surveyed every woman on the planet to arrive at this conclusion? Sorry to burst your bubble Maria, but there are women out there that date older or younger – just like there are men that date older or younger. Perhaps your opinion is based on personal experience or faulty logic – but the facts do not support your conclusion. I will agree that there are messed up gold diggers out there, but there are also many young, smart, and attractive women that simply prefer older guys. In fact, my experience tends to directly contradict yours. I find that women closer to my age are the ones messed up. They have been treated poorly by men; they are bitter and resentful. They often do not take care of their bodies or their minds. Then you throw in the hormonal crap that accompanies menopause, and you have a real basket case on your hands. How’s that for a generalization ?!?!
@Lilabee – well, aren’t you just the most precious little flower. At 23, you restrict all “social” contact to the 18-24 year old set. So, just at the point that you should be discovering that there is a much broader and more interesting world with people of all ages, talents, achievements and interests, you’ve determined that *your* world is going to remain firmly in the college undergrad demographic.
Look, no one is arguing that older guys should believe that younger women are all in to them. By the same token, you are a perfect argument for why older guys with their act together should be really wary of young women. Your comments about “desperate” older guys who develop “twisted obsessions” with you speak volumes about you – while revealing very little about the actual topic being discussed here. Personally, I don’t buy it for a second.
@Lilabee – Sorry if I was too hard on you. I should have just said that you need to understand that your view on older guys is very much conditioned by the fact that you seem to have a fairly narrow range of “acceptable” social friends. I went a bit negative because your post struck me as needlessly judgmental; with a broader perspective you wouldn’t be so quick to write off people that might prove really interesting. I am not suggesting that you date a guy who is 67 (or anyone else, for that matter) but I would suggest that you push back hard and early on people who begin to make you uncomfortable. This leaves you more room to get to know people without expectations or “twisted obsessions”.
Lilabee, you spoke that this older guy tried to rub your hand.
What did you say? What did you do?
Did you say, I like you, but I am seeing someone; or I’m sorry, thanks for the ride, but I need to go to bed now, I’ll see you at the office. Did you ever just directly TELL HIM, that you are not interested as a bf, or lover? If you did not, then in his mind, it is easy to see that you led him on. Rubbing your hand, if he thinks you are interested, is a rather gentle come on.
Now, to quote YOU:
“He was nice, charming, very funny, and suprisingly fit ”
So, to his eyes, you responded favorably. You then say:
“Once he came and joined me for lunch and then everyday that was sort of our thing.”
“our thing.” Apparently he did feel like it was you guy’s thing. Did by this time you explain you were not interested? You go on to say:
“Then he asked me out to lunch (outside cafeteria) and would take me to really upscale bistros just for lunch.”
By this time, either you are very stupid, or you did not care about his feelings, taking what you could. Wow, such lunch perks. Upscale Bistros? Give me a break. I am an entertainer, and I’ve met MANY women like you. DO NOT SAY, that you had no idea. Anyone whose ever been out and about knows a man does not keep regular company and spend money, without some form of tacit agreement. If you did not lay the law down by then, you led him on. I can only imagine the humiliation he must have felt upon the stigma of a women asking for a transfer, for what can be construed as sexual harassment, which can follow him through his career, and create problems for him, long after this event is over. Sad, because like it or not, you led him on the entire time. You are type of woman who takes a guy into her hotel room at 2 AM, only to make an accusation the next day. Yes, you are so innocent. You let him eat with you every day, let him take you to expensive Bistros, and yet you are ‘creeped out,’ by his interest?
By your behavior, he had ever signal to believe you were interested. Never did you say you clearly told him your boundaries.
You write with a fair degree of articulation. You are obviously reasonably intelligent. You are also destructive, with malice. Based on your intelligence, I would never believe you did not know what was up.
You just didn’t care.
Then you say no younger men, or boys are rude, or so sexually direct. On that, your credibility is suspect. It is the chief complaint of women that the younger guys, are obsessive in their quest for sexual favors.
Maybe, you need to examine your behavior. I am not saying you intentionally lead anyone on, but if you pay attention to how you actually inter-relate, perhaps you did not get your message of ‘NOT interested’ out clearly to the old guy.
Lilabee I’m really sorry you’ve received such ignorant rude replies, the fact is a lot of the people commenting here are old men who have an agenda, they’re trying to convince themselves that young women want them & not because of their wallet or daddy issues. Comparing with race is stupid (& actually quite offensive to the heroes of the civil rights movement who battled for RIGHTS, not the right of an old men to letch after a young girl), no one is saying these men can’t ever date women only that they should be more circumspect – it is not usual for young women to want old men, it happens but it is not usual & most young women prefer young men. Of course there are a few old men who will convince themselves that is not true, there’s no arguing with them I’m afraid.
To those who defend this 67 year old letch, imagine it’s a 67 year old woman trying to fondle a young 23 year old man…
Joel, maybe just maybe Lilabee went to lunch with this guy because she thought of him as a grandfatherly figure? I know at her age I wouldn’t have believed a 67 year old would pull a stunt like that, poor girl – talk about feeling old age creeping up on you!
I am almost 23 years old and I honestly want to kill myself whenever I read things about how I will soon pass my attractiveness peak. I hate everything about being a woman — or rather, I hate everything about the way society “values” us. I just don’t want to deal with it any more. (To be clear, my feelings about this are not limited to looks.) I want to be reborn on a planet where intelligent beings are all truly equal and only gain value with age, and don’t oppress or abuse others.
@M – don’t believe it for a second. And it isn’t a “peak” the way you seem to think it is. Think of it as a dramatic rise (because girls aren’t attractive until they are women but this happens over just a few years) followed by a long time in the sweet zone. It is very true that this depends on your actions: healthy, fit people can have decades in the sweet zone while people who treat their bodies like garbage have a much briefer period. My wife is 51 and she has been beautiful to me every day since we met in college (and, yes, I still catch people looking at her so it isn’t *just* the fact that I love her). But more than that, you can gain so much of value in the next few years that a good man will appreciate – especially if those years are shared.
I don’t find it wrong for an older person to find a younger person attractive. I don’t find it wrong for a younger person to find an older person attractive. The fundamental problem with a May-December type romance is that December usually dies decades before May.
My husband’s grandparents were 20 years apart. He died eight years ago. Watching her live day to day for the last eight years has been heartbreaking. The man whom she loved her entire adult life is gone. She has no finical woes, he made sure of that before his retirement, but it doesn’t change the fact that he is dead and she is still struggling to learn to live without him.
It’s great for a man to show off his young, sexy wife when he’s much older than her, but what happens to this woman he claims to love when she’s no longer attractive to men because of her age and he’s dead? She will probably end up spending the last twenty years of her life alone—if she lives that long.
I feel the same way about older women with younger men. It’s not love when it’s selfish. And that’s exactly what the December is in a May-December romance; selfish.
Its interesting I have dated younger women for many years, varying from 4 years difference to 14, the girl I am with now and will in the not so distant future get married to.
If we are generalising, women mature faster than men, anyone disagree?
If we are generalising, long term happiness requires a meeting of minds as well as bodies? disagree?
So to me, its normal that men date younger women.
How much younger?
Well you might want to avoid becoming a fat, slow and dull guy in your 30s and beyond as you have to consider that although being older and a little wiser, not much, but a little will work to your advantage being a lot rounder in general is not going to work so well!
I do not subscribe to the, DATING younger is selfish…. if you think that we are going to split up because in 50 years time I might have shuffled off and she may have a decade on her own then its ridiculous… no one can tell you what is going to happen next week, month or year, so do not make decisions based on what MIGHT happen in 50 years!
I look after myself, I look after her, we are intellectually suited and fully expect to be married until death do us part…
When you are adults, age is meaningless…. it just is.. if i saw a 60 year old woman with a 21 year old guy, i would not bat an eyelid, life is short and if they make each other happy you have to trust that they are mature enough to know the bigger picture of what MAY be.
The girl who talks about the 67 year old guy and she is 23…. flirting is a two way street and i guess at 67 he was more HOPING to be in with a chance of dating you than expecting, I find it hard to believe that you were totally clear in the lead up to him CREEPING YOU OUT.
oh… I am on a foreign keyboard and cannot properly punctuate! Just so you know.. thank you
Mary is making a sweeping generalization based on one experience. The brutal fact is that one partner will almost always die first, and the other partner will spend the last years of his / her life alone. Mary laments upon her grandmother’s sadness now, but she fails to acknowledge the many years of happiness grandma experienced with her chosen mate. Her grandparents obviously had a good marriage, and they were smart; they had a financial plan to protect the younger member of this 20 year age gap relationship. Mary closes by inferring that her grandfather was selfish for taking such a young woman for a bride. I think that the history of this successful relationship proves that it was the right decision for both of them. I would even go so far as to say that Mary’s grandmother would have been the selfish one if she refused to enter into the relationship based solely on the age gap.
I do realize personal experiences are a very bad reason to form an opinion in our modern society. If the situation were reversed and he was the younger one left behind and heartbroken, I’d feel she was just as selfish.
Our society IS selfish. Generally, I feel most women are more selfish than men–in my personal experiences, so I realize this opinion might be wrong.
Real love is not selfish. It does what is best for the other person.
I agree…real love does what is best for the other person. However, what is best has to be viewed through that person’s eyes – not society’s eyes…When grandma was contemplating marriage to a man 20 years older she HAD to think about the fact that he would die first – yet she married him anyway. I’d be interested to know how grandma feels about this; if she had to do it over again, would she have looked for someone else ?
Grandma wasn’t thinking about his age, she was thinking about the death of the man she would have married had he come home from war. She loved grandpa, she loved him very much, but he was the second choice for her, not the first. The first choice was her own age.
Mary my dear, you say it so perfectly. I’m so sorry to read of your grandmother, I know I’ll face along widowhood too. I would NOT marry an older man if I had my time again.
Towards the end you say that most women are disgusted by men who are 10, 20, or 30 years older. Then, you cite Johnny Depp as a good example for men to follow, but you inform us that he is 48 while his French girlfriend, to whom you say he is devoted, is 38. That would be a 10 year difference. So which is it? Is Johnny Depp a “devoted” mate, or an old 40-something “lusting” after a woman 10 years his junior?
Women my age are more likely to call me on my bullshit? Are you kidding me? Women my age are typically making up bullshit to call me on, calling me on bullshit their ex husband did, trying to mould me into someone I’m not and calling me on the bullshit of not being that person, telling me to stop smoking out, on and on. They’re terrified of acting young and having a good time, as if somehow all that glorious adult responsibility is suddenly going to disappear and their lives will turn into a train wreck of poverty and broken careers. It’s not like American Beauty isn’t dang close to the reality for many men in their 30s.
I sacrificed a lot of my 20s to become a mature, stable, established adult. I married a woman exactly my age, then, after our divorce, dated a woman just three years younger than me. Both of them exhibited the following behaviors that women in my generational cohort (let’s set age aside and just look at what women in their 30s learned in the 1980s) seem to exhibit: a general distrust of men because men are “inherently” “controlling” and “violent” “rapists”; the view that you can have a career, a caring man who will raise your children, and an alpha male who earns the dough all at the same time; the idea that they can/should put off having children until they’re 40; the idea that they can have an equal relationship and have chivalry from a man at the same time. There’s more.
These are just a few of the ideologies my generation got dumped on us. Fortunately, a lot of this has died off, except in the academy. Younger women just except to have careers: it’s not a dang revolution for them, and men aren’t automatically viewed the enemy standing in their way. Yeah, it’s nice to be with a woman who doesn’t think she’s “sleeping with the enemy.” So kill me. Many women in their 20s have stopped identifying as feminists because they actually believe in equality, which is another relief for an older man dating a younger woman. Feminism is not about equality. Then there’s the fun factor. I’m frankly tired of women who take themselves, their careers, and their ideal image of a man too seriously. I already did all that, spending 15 or 20 years perfecting myself as much as possible. I don’t need to be told I have more work to do. I don’t need a honey do list. If a younger woman approaches me (yep, that’s how it happened), what am I supposed to say: Nope, sorry, my attraction to you is socially constructed and I must deny it to myself and to you in order to be the kind of man a 30 something nag will love?
Joel W.
You sound like you’ve had a woman use for all the wrong reasons. I can assure you that is not the case here.
The only thing between my co worker and I was lunch. We would even talk about our favorite book and movies. In no way, shape, or form did I ever lead him on. We never even hugged or touched. He never came on to me before that night. Like I said, he was just a friendly co worker to me.
To your original question, when he rubbed my hand I so shocked I just got up and told him he had to leave and I did thank him for the ride.
You say I responded “favorably”
No, I responded nicely when we initially met. Him being “nice, funny and very fit” are just qualities that I noticed AFTER we continued to hang out.
When I said “our thing”
I meant, we were used to having lunch together and having conversation. It was nothing intimate implied in that.
And I will Not give you a break. I don’t know you, but you come across as a man scorned.
1. Did I ever say he paid for all the upscale bistros? No, Sometimes I would pay for lunch. Like I said, that was our thing: LUNCH. No more, no less
2. I would never go anywhere with anyman at 2 am unless it was a family member or emergency
3. I would never go with anyone to a hotel room unless I was on vacation
What boundaries were there to bring up? We were lunch buddies no more no less. Your reading more into it then there is just like my co worker.
And you don’t at all know the type of woman I am.
You obviously have a low opinion of young women. Sorry they treated you bad.
Moderator Note: Edited to remove personal insult
To be honest, I haven’t scoured the above text fully, but perhaps I could reveal an incident that may put the above into a little more perspective. I’m 56, single, have put on a bit of weight, but fortunately don’t quite yet resemble Jabbar the Hutt just yet. I also happen to be a very “shy guy”, and as a result don’t approach females largely due to lack of confidence and experience (have always had this problem). The last time (about a year ago) that a female I didn’t know said “Hello” to me in an interested manner was a (exclusive) private school girl who I would guess was between 15 and 16.
Some years ago whilst going to an inner city pub to listen to music, the only females who approached me (and usually offered me a drink) appeared to be no more than about 18.
I’ll let you draw your own conclusions from this information.