In the world of dialogue about sexual violence, it’s time the language include men as more than aggressors. They are also victims, and we must acknowledge their experiences.
Originally posted at jameslandrith.com.
Carly Fleming of Culture Shock on “How Men Can Talk About Women’s Issues“:
Although there may only be one Feminist Ryan Gosling, there are other men out there offering their support for women’s issues. Any movement fighting against oppression needs to accept allies to maximize the potential to succeed; however, there is often a disconnect in dialogue that prohibits such collaboration from happening.
Last Friday at BU’s weekly Coffee and Conversation, there was a discussion on rape culture stemming from the recent events surrounding the men’s hockey team. We had real talk about slut shaming, survivors, and educating ourselves. The conversation ended with the men feeling as if they were not being given a right to contribute. In my opinion, possession of a penis is not a crime deemed punishable by exclusion. Still, men need to understand a few points before engaging in these conversations.
This is an interesting thread and article. I want to thank Carly for taking the time to write it. Please take the time to read her article and all of the comments. While my comments below were inspired by Carly’s article, I am not solely focusing on her thoughts. I am making broader observations that exist independent of her comments. Please bear that in mind.
I can understand the need to have closed conversations that center on a particular gender, and I support such conversations when done in a manner that is not used to create a hierarchy of survivorhood or promote minimization of other survivors. In short, the way these conversations are identified must be taken into consideration to avoid confusion, generalizations or over-reaching ownership of traumatic experiences based on narrowly defined criteria that are not openly stated.
For instance, a conversation that claims to be about rape culture or sexual violence, but is really ONLY about how the same affect women is misleading. If it is only to be about how those topics affect women, then that needs to be spelled out. If a conversation is identified as meant to discuss rape, then people will rightfully expect it to be about rape in general without exclusions. If it is only about how women are affected by rape than that caveat must be clear and spelled out in plain language. To do otherwise, a discussion/organization runs the risk of appearing to be engaging in minimization or erasure of survivors who don’t fit that narrowly defined criteria.
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I am a male rape survivor of a female rapist who drugged a drink and then raped me repeatedly over several hours while unconscious and continued same after the drugs wore off. I don’t claim to understand how female rape survivors feel, and I sure do not expect that they will understand how I feel.
By way of comparison, I’ve gotten to know many female survivors of female rapists and heard their stories and struggles with recognition and acceptance. They have experiences that female survivors of male rapists simply cannot understand fully from their own perspective. The view is just that different. Further, each survivor, regardless of gender identification of the perp or victim reacts uniquely in the short and long term. There is no such thing as a survivor monolith, and I’m tired of seeing that concept promoted and defended in so many places.
Given that the overwhelming vast majority of women have NOT been raped, it is a bit frustrating as an ACTUAL RAPE SURVIVOR who just happens to have a penis to be told repeatedly that rape is a women’s issue, quite often by women who have NOT been raped. Viewed through that lens, I find myself often shaking my head in frustration. My experience as a survivor has made the issue mine as well. I don’t need the permission of a woman who has NOT been raped for me to make sexual violence an issue I take seriously and work to affect in a positive manner. Truly, I don’t.
For nearly 20 years, I have lived and breathed the consequences of her decision to inflict her will on me. I’ve surprised many women who feel comfortable speaking authoritatively on sexual violence sans personal experience with my knowledge of PTSD response and first hand accounts of victim-blaming and healing strategies. I take issue with people male OR female who arrogantly profess to speak for survivors but do not really understand our core issues and challenges, except from an academic or political perspective. In the larger narrative on sexual violence there are giant truckloads of arrogant ignorance that need to be replaced with empathy, learning and listening–regardless of gender identification.
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In the larger narrative on sexual violence there are giant truckloads of arrogant ignorance that need to be replaced with empathy, learning and listening–regardless of gender identification.
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I fully support narrowly defined discussions and exploration of themes on whatever criteria (to include gender) is useful to those controlling the conversation at the time, but my patience is wearing thin for the broad-based hijacking of issues and promotion of generalizations on the basis of the gender when there are millions of male survivors dealing with PTSD and Rape Trauma Syndrome across the globe. We are not only allies to female survivors, but the actual affected parties in our own right. I do not need permission to speak on this issue. I, unlike many people who would see me silenced based solely on my gender, have lived it. I will not sit in the corner in shame like a petulant child awaiting mommy’s permission to speak again.
I can speak for days to my own experiences with rape culture, rape jokes, victim-blaming, denial, threats, cyber harassment, and outright mockery. A person who has not experienced such from the perspective of a rape survivor (regardless of gender identification) is ill-equipped to fully relate and should NOT be engaging in any form of silencing or promotion of survivor hierarchies for any reason.
Quite simply, it is not their right.
Photo by Tomas Sobek/Flickr
About James A. Landrith
I think the MAIN issue is that at least in North America women are not oppressed. Are there areas in society that women might be at a disadvantage in relation to men. For sure (just as there are areas in which men are at a disadvantage) but OMG, oppressed, not even close.
There are areas of the planet were women are so, but not in North America.
That is why these conversations so irk me. They start out with a false premise then proceed to try and justify it.
Believe me when my wife raped me there was nothing false about it. It was mean and brutal. I when from being a person to a doormat in a few minutes time. The only thing false is women saying that only they can be sexual violence victims.
James,
I too was raped but in a subtle and coercive manner. I have PVPS and sex was not only unenjoyable but very painful. My ex thought the use of her toys on me would ‘spruce’ up the relationship. As defiant as I was to this the more demanding and aggressive she became. It was to the point where I would wake up suffocating from her straddling my face while she attempted to for me to have oral sex on her or waking upt to getting a BJ or HJ. She would attempt to put dildos/vibrators in my mouth or down my briefs while I was asleep. This was a routine and unpleasant experience. She would accuse me of cheating on her because I wasn’t intimate with her sexually but satisfied her without the use of my penis. The final straw was when I woke up the another woman straddled over me while kissing my former wife. This was supposed to be every man’s fantasy, not mine. After I wanted to get at divorce she got the police involved and said that I was beating her up. I was immediately evicted from my house, unable to see my children and had to surrender 70% of my pay to her. Her ‘innocent victim’ act has gone on since the initiation of the divorce. She now accused me of DV, molesting my children, child abuse, pet abuse, parent abuse (even though my parents live 1,100 miles away), and stealing money from her, even though she didn’t work at the time. I attempted to tell police my lawyer and the judge of what had happened to me but no one would believe me.
I have retired from the military due to her accusations of DV but had enough time to earn a retainer, which she gets 55% of . I have nightmares where I actually believe she is suffocating me multiple times a week. I’ve experienced the smell of her trying to put dildos in my mouth after she masturbated with them orally and anally even to this day. But I’m a guy, so I’m either a wuss or I’m lying. I don’t consider myself a victim but I’ve had some bad things happen to me and I can’t get them out of my head. It’s debilitating.
“There are areas of the planet were women are so, but not in North America.
That is why these conversations so irk me. They start out with a false premise then proceed to try and justify it.”
Exactly.
I think it falls back to the purpose of those discussions. The women who silence male victims do so because male victims do not fit into their worldview. Even if you get those women to admit men and boys are victims, they quickly remind you that “the vast majority of victims are women.”
If more of those people empathized with male victims, I do not think that would happen. It is hard to write someone off if you actually care about them.
However, I think telling it like it is gets the point across much better. I usually do not share details about my past with those types of women because I can do without the headache. Yet when I do, I simply tell them what happened, not how I felt, and that makes them treat it seriously because if they dismiss it, they really look bad.
Sometimes dealing with what happened to men and boys is the first step to getting those women to take it down a notch. After all, it humbled Oprah.
Even if you get those women to admit men and boys are victims, they quickly remind you that “the vast majority of victims are women.”
Or “the majority of aggressors are men”. Any way to shift things back to the “men = aggressor, women = victim” dynamic. I think the way male victims are treated (especially the way male victims of female aggressors are treated) shows that people large and wide simply do not want anyone or anything to challenge their view that when it comes to sex crimes it is “something men do to women”. Maybe its women that don’t want to face the fact that being a survivor of a sex crime is not exclusive territory of females. Maybe its men that don’t want to face the fact that men can be targetted by such crimes. Who knows but all I know is that one thing that must happen if there is any hope to doing something about sex crimes is that people have to drop these ideas of basing who the perps and victims are on gender.
Agreed. I think some of them care far more about painting males as vicmtizers and females as victims than they do about the issue itself.
Damn straight.
Danny, I think part of the reaction from female survivors comes from a fear that people are accusing them of being abusers. When I think back on the way some women responded to me, they were mostly defensive. Their reactions reminded of how men and boys react when women talk about male abusers. We have thought of abuse as something only men do, and this affords female survivors the luxury of “knowing” they would never become abusive because they are women. Talking about female abusers shatters that. Now they too could be abusers, and perhaps in defense some female survivors lash out at male survivors.
That is certainly possible Jacob but what bothers me is that even people who advocate for female survivors and female victims themselves don’t seem to think about this when it comes to male survivors and thus have no problem projecting the fear you speak of onto them. How many times have you known female survivors and advocates of female survivors not only refuse to believe male survivors because they are male but then turn around and accuse them of being abusers because they are male?
You would think that with this fear you speak of in mind female survivors and advocates for female survivors would be the perfect allies of male survivors but I know that you personally have experienced that they can also be a male survivor’s worst nightmare.
Can someone explain the:
” need to have closed conversations that center on a particular gender”?
If the arguments are valid, they should stand up to any criticism. If you need to sensor voices in order to have your argument be believed, that’s a pretty good indication that you’re not making a good case.
The difference being that its one thing to have conversations that focus only on women as victims of men but its quite another when people try to take those closed conversations and declare that they are the end all be all of sexual violence.
Good Idea: A support group that specializes in female victims of male abusers.
Bad Idea: Creating policy that by near definition focuses solely on male abusers to the point that female abusers are able to abuse that policy in order to continue their abuse and shame their victims into silence.
Danny,
I appreciate the reply, but I still don’t understand. It seems like the only reason you would ever need a group that specializes in “female victims of male abusers” is if that sort of abuse is fundamentally different from any other type of abuse.
In other words, why can’t we just have a “victims of abusers” group? Why is the subgroup necessary unless the members allege that their abuse is somehow “unique”? More importantly, isn’t it exactly this type of thinking, that men-abusing-women is somehow different from women-abusing-men, that results in the kind of policy you labeled as “bad”?
Because the sub-groups are unique, and have similar experiences based on race/gender/class/transgender/sexual orientation/ect..
However it is also good to bring everyone together, and talk about how the issue affects everyone. Which I think is what the author is doing here.
Sorry for taking so long to reply as I’ve been moving and I just got back online last night.
I think another reason for such a group is for the sake of during a part of the healing process one doesn’t want a constant reminder of their attacker.
Unfortunately what i think happens is that sometimes the desire to help people heal gets taken too far. After a while you get so fixiated on helping someone heal that you begin to actively harm others. I think this plays out in the form of people who have female against male DV victims on their mind so much that they begin to think that they are the only types of DV victims, or the only type that matter. And you end up with people then actively trying to downplay other victims out of fear that helping others heal will take away from “their victims”.
I think its important that victims have space but I do agree that sometimes it goes too far and dangerous mentalities form as a result (and its not always the victims that come up with these dangerous mentalities). But the problem is how far is too far?
While I be stupid to say that there are no turf wars in the DV field I think that most male victims have an invisibility problem. To most people we’re like unicorns, talked about but not real. I think that part of this is because there are a lot of men that don’t think they are getting enough sex. So when the topic comes up they start; “I wish somebody would rape me. pity party”. They just can’t fathom what it means to be attacked instead of a loving encounter. When it is inside a relationship it can be devestating. Take it from me when you’re trapped in a relationship and get raped its really bad.
I think that part of this is because there are a lot of men that don’t think they are getting enough sex.
I think this may be over simplifying the matter when it comes to men and rape but I think I see where you’re coming from.
But as we can see and as you say that’s only a part of the problem. Even if men like that can’t fathom what it means to be attacked that still does not explain why even people who claim to take all violence seriously still disregard male victims.
And about DV in general there is still the problem that male victims aren’t taken seriously simply because, even among some of those who say they take all violence seriously, will still extend female attackers a dose of sympathy that would be called an excuse if offered to male attackers and have no problem dismissing male victims in ways that would be called victim blaming if done to female victims.
Bravo!!!
+1
“In the larger narrative on sexual violence there are giant truckloads of arrogant ignorance that need to be replaced with empathy, learning and listening–regardless of gender identification.”
This is a beautiful and powerful statement. I couldn’t agree more.
Thanks Julie. I actually wrote that commentary while sick and lightheaded after being up for most of the night. I was hopeful that it would be worthwhile and not a muddled mess.
Missed, I think, the point of women, or feminists, restricting the rape debate to men on women. When it comes to victimization, some is bad, more is better, and a hell of a lot is terrific. The point is the social, legal, political pressure that can be promoted by victims and their advocates.
Being victimized, if the victim is in an Accredited Victim Group (AVG) is like money in the bank, sometimes not figuratively. Not too many years ago, UC Davis reported 700 rapes and got a big grant to fight rape. An enterprising reported discovered no reports of rape to the campus or local cops. No report if the money was returned.
The infamous Koss study defined rape in order to get the numbers needed.
The drunken thrashings of a couple of late teens who can’t recall what happened is “rape” in order to spook the unwary into thinking violent assaults happen all the time.
At the same time, when a member of an AVG assaults some one, that’s a withdrawal from the putative account. See the fuss over the Duke lax hoax, vs. the fuss over the actual rape of Duke student–Katie Rouse–in a Duke fraternity house about the same time.
There is a very cold, logical reason for making rape all about men on women. It’s money in the bank.
Accredited Victim Group (AVG), that is pure genius.
I couldn’t have come up with a better term, I’ll be using it from now on.
Okay who here wants to sit still and receive a verbal backlash from women you’ve done nothing to? Anyone? I’m not saying that Empathy is a zero sum gain but it’s not all it’s cracked up to be either.
Can Men truly process the pain and helplessness that these rape victims feel? I wouldn’t even try to. If they asked me to take part in proactive measures like take back the knight, I’m all for it, but I’am not participating in any collective guilt symposium.
Follow the money FOLKS, Follow the money.
Even if some don’t want to admit it, DV, Rape and other forms of violence against women are big money. Sad to say, but it is true.
Look at Rhianna and Chris Brown. By every definition put ouf the the DV industry what Chris Brown did to Rhianna was not domestic violence but rather an assault. Was it horrible , absolutely, but most still insist on using it as a way to get money for DV causes. That is why those same people are so horrified and are vilifing her to perhaps working with him again, they have lost their cash cow.
On of the areas of society that always fascinates me is Child Abuse and how most of orgs try and fight it. It is common knowledge (as every major study shows it) , women and especially mothers commit the majority of child abuse (with the exception of sexual abuse). BUT, when you do some research online at child abuse websites, that fact is rarely if ever mentioned. YES, I know that women and mothers spend more time with the children and yes this MIGHT account for higher numbers BUT in the end, to a child who is being abused, I highly doubt it matters and is that what is supposed to be important. It is my true belief that we as a society have such a huge problem combatting child abuse because we simply aren’t willing to accept that if we tackle the abusers, the majority of those abusers will be women and mothers. In my opinion this carries over to the area of sexual assault. Women abusers simply don’t exist in some people minds and those people are often times the ones in power.
I know when I was going through my dievorce and brought up the fact that my son was being dragged into the bedroom (it was a tiny loft with a bathroom alcove on the side) with my ex and her lovers the reult was that I lost all visitation rights to my son so I would interfer with my ex having fun.
I think it is part of a big sexist lie.
” Women don’t abuse because they are nice gentle and loving. Therefore we can safely leave them with the children, and the children will be safe.”
We like this lie because it restricts women and makes children safe…
In reality we will have to face the fact that many women seriously abuse their children and women are no safer than men with children.
“YES, I know that women and mothers spend more time with the children and yes this MIGHT account for higher numbers BUT in the end, to a child who is being abused,”
I really dislike this argument. It makes abuse a function of time. To me it’s simply another in the endless list of excuses for female committed abuse.
Actually you completely missed the point. To many Judges and Social Workers any woman can do no wrong and they won’t consider a woman as an unfit parent unless there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary; ie mommy is a out of control doper, or has broken bones, et cetra! In my case due to my loving ex’s lies I haven’t had any contact with my son and he’s thirty in June!!!
Did you actually read what I wrote?
I wasn’t respomding to you but Mike I must have clicked the wrong box! No you and I are talking about the same issue just different parts. I don’t like the fact that a mother can be abusing a child but it’s OK because of her being female. I think that the fair thing would be to impartially decide who would be the better parent. In my case the ex had shoved my son into my arms saying she didn’t want him. About a month later I started having a nervious breakdown ( I had PTSD from the ex’s abuse) and asked her to keep our son for two weeks. A week later I was hauled into court and the Judge demanded that I surrender parental rights! Then a couple of more trips to court and I never saw my son again.
Thanks James. You always would have had my support anyway.
Basically it all boils down to this: If you are human you can be abused. It doesn’t matter what sex or type of relationship you are in or not in you can be abused. Once I talked to a director of another county’s abuse shelter and she told me that it got rather interesting when the people involved were two lesbians because all of their safeguards were for protecting women from men so the abuser had easy access to the shelter.
It sickens me when many people, especially some feminists cling on to the women are victims, men are perpetrators mentality so much. They’ll gladly minimize your experience by saying butwomengetitworse, most rapists are men, etc and forget that rape definitions are heavily biased and inflate the percentage in favour of women as evident in the CDC report.
It makes me wonder why they want rape to remain a women’s issue and not allow it to be seen as a human issue? Wouldn’t showing the true level of male victimization say to us all that more needs to be done to prevent it? You don’t need your gender to be the only victim!
It may even lead to an increase in funding…
Amen to that.
Seems that men can never have issues without pulling women into the fold. Men being raped isn’t good enough, we have to be pulled into the fold and made the same, put on equal footing as women. The dinamics of female on male rape is far different. Although there are similar feelings and emotions, a man being raped goes beyond being violated.
A recent article on here talked about walking the walk … show of hands, where was TGMP when it came to trying to change VAWA?
I’m sure you hear this a lot, but I think you’re very brave for putting yourself in the limelight and talking about your abuse. I am a female rape survivor. I know that the way it works for women, often, is that the people we know at the time do not support or believe us – however, the majority of society, at a remove, will acknowledge that raping women is bad and should be stopped. It’s a disgusting double standard that men are not yet given that same respect.
I feel like when a lot of pain is involved, it’s difficult not to lash out at a perceived aggressor. I think that you’re right that sometimes there need to be discussions that are only about abuse against one gender and that should sometimes only be conducted by that gender. I speak from my own experience here; sometimes, it’s very difficult for me to speak to men about this. In those times, when a man tries to contribute, my knee jerk reaction is to lash out, and that has no place in a healthy forum. Similarly, if I’m feeling in pain and like a victim, I believe it might be difficult to hear a man talk about women as aggresors – because when we talk about this, sometimes our voices and our pain is raw, and sometimes it’s hard not to feel defensive even though I am clearly not the woman who has abused the speaker. I’ve never acted on this defensiveness. We have all earned our pain. That needs to be respected.
But even in this blog, I see an “Us vs Them” mentality forming in the comments. “Seems that men can never have issues without women pulling them into the fold,” “It sickens me when…especially feminists,” Missed, I think, the point of women, or feminists, restricting the rape debate to men on women.” (Incidentally, I know a number of fantastic menfolk who identify as feminists or equal-rights activisists. Maybe this wasn’t the intent of the commentors, but the implication of the comments seemed to be that feminist and woman are synonymous.) There’s an entire comment arc about how women don’t take male rape victims seriously, and that discussion certainly has its place – but in my experience, men don’t take male rape victims seriously either. This is a societal problem and I think that if we – all of us, men and women – don’t stop playing into the competition of gender binary, it’s going to be a hard one to fix.
Actually, I can speak to all your comments directly. You are actually wrong about men being dismissive about men who have been raped. They usually respond with “what are you complaining about” and “gee I wish I had that problem.” So they are more adusive.
Also, being an abused spouce I have worked as a hotline worker in a spouce abuse center. Since I was emotional abused for ten years I had a very good understanding of psychological and was very supportive of the women that were very confused at first entering the center. Some of these women had been raised to completely accept the way they were treated. In addition, because of having friends in gay communities I know that there is abuse and rape in these communities.
I smile when some conservatives start talking about rape; thinking what do you call a woman raping a woman. It is sad that some people want to define things to fit their life-view and not reality.
The debate should be how can we help the victims and discourage offenders. Oh, and yes I am a feminist. I support all people in having a better life.