Because reproduction requires both men and women, Misty McLaughlin says the War on Women is more accurately a War on People, and asks men to take responsibility for their part.
This article originally appeared at Role/Reboot.
In a beautiful twist on the gruesome women’s-health-as-political-theater we’ve all been subjected to lately, female legislators in two states have introduced bills to limit men’s access to birth control. Representative Yasmin Neal of Georgia has forwarded a bill to prevent men from access to vasectomies, while a collection of female legislators introduced a similar piece of legislation in Missouri.
Both bills were direct responses to anti-abortion and anti-contraception votes in those states. They’re tongue-in-cheek, of course: Who doesn’t want men to have access to vasectomies? Would anyone actually want men to have less reproductive responsibility than they do today? Certainly not the women sponsoring these bills.
The truth is, of course, that men outside the context of traditional straight-people marriage aren’t getting vasectomies in large numbers. And vasectomies are actually the only place in our culture in which men’s responsibility as reproductive actors actually gets talked about, much less assumed.
Outside of these two bills, no one in the national discussion is even raising the question of men’s reproductive responsibility, nor their rights. It’s as if reproductive health, and reproductive responsibility, were solely the domain of women. Somehow, our entire national conversation about reproduction, reproductive health and responsibility has not extended to roughly half of the people who participate in making babies and circulating STIs.
(Let’s be clear here: No one is actually threatening vasectomies—either their legal status, or their almost universal coverage by insurance companies. Vasectomies are widely understood to be relatively simple and safe procedures that fall under the category of preventive health.)
Dear male readers out there, listen up.
I want you to be outraged. Not angry because women are getting all the attention, but furious that in this conversation, no one has even acknowledged your role as a reproductive actor at center stage. It’s as if babies got made completely without you. The stage is set for our national pageant on reproductive health; we’re in act three; and you’re not on it.
Men: Rush Limbaugh insulted you, too. If, for example, you have ever taken a free condom from a student center in order to engage in safe sex—in other words, if anyone else ever paid for your contraception—Rush Limbaugh implicitly called you a slut and a prostitute.
By his logic, you should be making sex videos for public consumption. (You should know that your insurance company would likely cover the cost of any Viagra you might require to make such a sex video. In case the need arises. Or rather, in case it doesn’t.)
Men, here’s the thing: It’s a war on women, of course, because of the particular biological weight that we carry in childbearing. But it’s a war on you, too. We are witnessing a war on everyone’s rights to control what they do with, and what happens to, their own bodies. It is not an exaggeration to say that this is a war on people, and on individuals’ rights to define the private terms of their own lives and their families. To the people provoking this war, what’s most important is declaring the “personhood” of fetuses—far more important than either your rights or those of your female partner, should you have one.
For men who are outraged, here a few ideas for what you can do—in public, and in your own private life—to claim your role as a reproductive actor:
- Demand decent male birth control. Start by advocating for decent birth control options for men, of which there are paltry few. Somehow, we have the technology to accomplish all sorts of amazing things, including babymaking outside the context of heterosexual sex. Just as there’s a strong market demand for more and better options to help people become parents, we have to establish that there’s a market for male birth control technologies beyond condoms and vasectomies. This requires insisting that men are capable of being central, reproductively responsible players in both reproduction and the prevention thereof.
And once we have effective male contraception, demand that insurance cover it.
- Know your birth control. Take the sugar pills. If you’re in a relationship with a woman who is doing all of the birth control work for you both, it’s time to step up. Get to know your birth control (because it’s yours too), and find a way to play an active part in it. One of my husband’s ex-girlfriends used to make him take the pink sugar pills on the 4th week of her cycles. As his wife, I love her forever for insisting that this was his responsibility, and I love him for stepping up to claim it.
- Don’t let the men on stage now speak for you. Because in the absence of other strong male voices in this debate, that all-male panel of anti-choice, anti-contraception religious officials and professors who testified? They’re the men on stage in this debate, and they are speaking for you.
Insist that your lawmakers represent your perspective as a sex-positive, reproductively responsible man. Speak loudly. Demand that your male representatives walk out of hearings and meetings in which the perspectives of both men and women aren’t considered (not just female lawmakers). And when you do speak up, speak up along with and next to like-minded women. Don’t talk over us, please, but join us in telling your own stories as a reproductive actor.
- Follow the lead of the men from Texas. And I don’t mean Rick Perry, nor the particularly horrific cuts to Texas’ Women’s Health Programs recently doled out by the Texas state legislature. I’m talking about the fellows at Stand Up Men, who have charged the men of Texas to fight “the infection of silence,” as Glenn W. Smith and James Moore called it this week—a silence that results from treating this as a War on Women, instead of a war against us all. Talk to your legislators, talk to the women in your lives, and most importantly, talk to other men. Get on the stage, and bring other men with you.
And women, here’s our part in this: We need to acknowledge the place of men in these issues, to insist on their role as reproductive actors, and on their reproductive rights, too. Men should be testifying in these hearings, as should we. With seizing great responsibility should come great rights. We have historically borne the weight of biology and also the weight of this particular war on our rights. It’s time for, and we also need, modern men to step in and wage it with us.
For all of us: We need a new politics of universal reproductive rights and responsibility. We need to start treating reproduction like it’s a central part of the human—in addition to the female—experience. We need to hold each other accountable in our partnerships, our communities, and in public. And we need to start treating reproduction like it’s a health issue for adults. Just like we can’t legislate people’s behavior on any other health issue, we need to stop legislating what people do consensually with their own bodies regarding sex and reproduction. We need to start doing everything we can to increase our collective health—men and women, beyond biology—by promoting safe, healthy sex.
Misty McLaughlin edits the Family section of Role/Reboot. She is a parent by vocation, a nonprofit web consultant by trade, and a writer and seamstress by fits and starts. Among other topics, she’s passionate about exploring issues of gender and generation, helping other households to find cultural loopholes that allow them to make their own models, and promoting institutional support for rebooting our roles. Follow her on Twitter @mistymclaughlin.
Photo credit: Flickr / emilianohorcada
As a progressive and twenty year “choice”advocate I think it is past due time we address the lack of reproductive rights for men. This is one progressive cause that could unite men and women in the protection of the “right to choose”. It may be challenging but the subsequent healing between the genders that could occur would be well worth it. Ive lost two clients this year whose psychological distress was directly related to feelings of powerlessness regarding their lack of reproductive choices.
Remember this folks, MEN have no reproductive rights whatsoever. I have seen many times on the internet that well “Men can just keep it in their pants” and on the surface this seems like they have the right to say NO, but in the area of law, they actually don’t. If the women is able to obtain his sperm by any method and impregnate herself with it, the men is still held responsible. Therefore common sense dictates that he doesn’t have the right to say NO. Let me put it this way. Lets say a law says that a woman… Read more »
Fun fact: vasecotomies are illegal in my country (Poland) and any doctor performing it can face up to 10 years (if I remember correctly).
On the other hand abortion is also illegal unless the pregnancy is a result of a crime (incest, rape, paedophilia) or the pregnancy carries a risk to health and life of would-be mother.
Yes, there is an asymmetry to contraception. Yes, there are plenty of paternalistic doctors who ignore your contraceptive wishes. But let’s not assume it’s some sort of conspiracy at play here: ask a doctor and they’ll tell you the number one side effect of vasectomy and tubal ligation is regret. There’s also asymmetry when contraception fails. Women get pregnant. Men are on the hook for child support. An abortion is procured. I’d rather avoid all of that, which is why I support low cost contraception for everyone and subsidized childcare. I think the reason some folks come with that conspiracy… Read more »
Aahh, you beat me to what I said, except I think that’s because I didn’t scroll enough. Do you think the pain and bitterness can be combated with enough condescending head-shaking and “women are bad at strategy” jokes? I do think in the past they didn’t listen to other groups (like gay/trans/other race) not because they DIDN’T care, but because they mistakenly thought “if we care about this one thing a lot, we’ll fix it completely and then help out everyone else after!” (My history is iffy, but I feel like maybe that’s kinda how it worked for other civil… Read more »
Do you think the pain and bitterness can be combated with enough condescending head-shaking and “women are bad at strategy” jokes?
Ultimately no but that’s what being blinded by hatred is all about. The issue or topic at hand doesn’t matter anymore its all about getting back at people.
…I do think in the past they didn’t listen to other groups (like gay/trans/other race) not because they DIDN’T care,
Even now in the present it still still comes off as that they only care about other groups because they finally figured out how helping those other groups would benefit women.
This is a great thing to discuss. How does one tell if the person/group is interested in real intersectional change, or only out for the group?
To me one sign of a person being interested in just for certain groups is a tendency to try to draw fast conclusions about other groups, as if they don’t want to spend must time on them. I’ve done it myself even.
I disagree:
https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/faqs/
https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/ozys-law/
I think the initial feminist movements were militant and blinded by rage? But then after stewing around in these various issue along with polyamorous and genderqueer people, they discovered Ozy’s law and realized that all the normative assumptions and issues were kinda really hurting everyone? And they were like whoaaa, things are isomorphic. O__o!
I should have quantified that with a “some” with that, “Even now in the present it still still comes off as that they only care about other groups because they finally figured out how helping those other groups would benefit women.” I agree that some of them recognized Ozy’s Law but if you look at how “Patriarchy Hurts Men Too” is chirped as if that’s all that needs to be said about men I think there is some truth to what I say. Also I’ve drawn this conclusion from some of my early dealings with some feminists on body image.… Read more »
That really sucks that someone did that. But this lady isn’t doing that now! Can you agree with her about the things she IS saying? 🙁
By “this lady” are talking about yourself, Julie or the folks I was just talking about my above comment?
I meant the author of teh article. ^___^
Oh the writer of this post?
Yes I can agree with them but just as people actively defend the hesitations and apprehensions of women that have less then grand feelings about men its going to be hard to come around to women even when I agree with them on topics like this.
I truly don’t understand this entire discussion. People talking past each other, ascribing beliefs to each other, demonizing entire groups of people. It’s all just so painful to read. A large part of why I discount my emotions almost entirely is because I know they can and will be wrong. I know there are biases inherent in the organization of my brain, biases that make me see and think things that aren’t there. I’m walking around with a blind spot – literally and figuratively – and my brain is more than happy to fill in the details. And those details will… Read more »
Amen. Sex Ed ample bc and low cost child care amen.
I think another thing that’s going on is that people are expressing their bitterness about all the things feminism did wrong in the past, and I DO think those feelings are justified. I think for a while there, historically, feminists did say that ONLY WOMEN ARE NOT IMPORTANT. From what I’ve read, I think they thought it was politically a good move? Like, let’s fix up these issues before we move onto these other ones. Except, as a side effect, they alienated a lot of people with similar issues who weren’t women and they’re paying the price for it now.… Read more »
There is a lot of reason and wisdom in this post. And also, there are generations of people coming into each movements at various times. If there are women, feminists NOW who are only hearing about things that happened THEN (or vice versa) perhaps we couldn’t have made that fight with you THEN….so..it’s not completely linear.
Juuuulia: (I don’t even identify as feminist), I greatly appreciate your good faith but as one such person that’s fighting his bitterness now I’ll tell you that if you don’t identify as feminist and if you’re a woman that didn’t want to keep men out of the birth control conversation then your apology is going to ring hollow a bit. Its the same reason I don’t apologize for the small subset of men who are rapists. but if you get past the spite of “it didn’t happen back when I wanted it, so I’m gonna oppose it now that it’s… Read more »
Nono, I hear you. But I think the missing piece of the puzzle is that a lot of active women that DO identify as feminist now aren’t aware of the historical issues, which is why they’re puzzled by all the backlash they’re getting. I’m 22; I wasn’t there when they told the men/gays/trans/black/Latino people that they didn’t matter and I think that was a huge mistake. T_T So yeah, I’m apologizing because I think I’ve figured out that this is a thing that needs to be apologized for? So maybe if I take a stab at it now then other… Read more »
I cannot tell you how appalled I am that your friend did that. I think he should have refused to sleep with her and/or broken up with her. That’s really entirely uncool.
We’d never think it cool if the man was like, “I’m not wearing a condom and taking away your birth control pills cause I want you to get pregnant.” In fact, we’d tell her to dump him. Same deal. Babies need parents who both WANT them. This is unfair to him and to her child.
I know, right?! And I hadn’t even considered the scenario before he told me about it. It’s not like he can sneak a condom on and pretend it’s not there and there’s no pill he could take. I don’t know, they’re a strange couple and they have two kids now and I think they’re making it work somehow? But it was weird because he wasn’t saying “no kids ever,” he was waiting for financial stability. At least that’s how he tells it. But also the “now I can’t have sex with my girlfriend” scenario really sucks a lot too, so… Read more »
Feminists often object to their campaigns being described as “hysterical”, because of the history and etymology of the word. But when we have a debate over whether it should be compulsory for occupational health insurance to cover contraception (for women only) or not framed as a “war on women”, followed by spiteful stunt-legislation against the few reproductive rights men actually have as leverage, it’s hard to think of a better word. Then we have this article, framing men’s input only in terms of responsibilities. I’m with DLZ and 8ball on this one.
Well said.
Really? After all feminism has done to cut men out of the reproduction rights issue, you want us to swoop in and save you?
Nah. You’re on your own. Especially after the whole “feint” about outlawing vascetomies. Feminism has framed this ENTIRE issue as women’s domain, so women can deal with it.
Don’t wanna get preggo? Keep it in your pants or see how much female condoms ruin sex. Enjoy seeing what its like to be a man you guys!
Wow DLZ. I wish every time you sat down on a first date, I could just walk up and hand the woman you’re with a transcript of your post here.
I’ve brought this up with my girlfriend before. She agrees with me. She’s a former feminist, too.
He’s got a point though. This BS over vasectomies whether it was a joke or not, (and I’m not entirely convinced it actually was a joke, mind) really has made it hard for me to really care about what happens. It’s sorta like calling someone a moron and then asking for their help with a project.
Also, I’m rather sick of being treated like a footsoldier . Feminists have made it pretty clear there’s Only One Valid Opinion that can be had on this issue, and guys had better have it. Or else.
It wasn’t a joke, it was satire. Think Jonathan Swift and you’ll get the idea.
The perception that it is largely white men sponsoring this legislation and the anti-vasectomy proposal is to raise awareness about women’s perception of men passing legislation that doesn’t affect men. It seems fitting satire then to introduce what they felt was in-kind legislation.
You’ve never seen an anti-vasectomy bill come up before, and the legislators that have introduced it have said explicitly what the purpose was. What gives you reason to not believe that? All this outrage seems so misplaced to me.
Not to get too political here, but in some parts of the country I think that enough of those religious old white men might vote for this bill and vasectomies might actually become illegal. That’s why I, politically, am without a party, republicans and their religiosity are as bad for men and men’s issues as are the extreme fringe vitriolic feminists. It’s a shame really! PS. I’m not specifically responding to anyone’s comment. This thread has gone way off the deep end into endless quibbling about irrelevant semantics.
The point is that feminism (or rather political feminist organizations) have spent the past several decades either willfully ignoring the problems faced by men, distorting their severity to conform to the feminist’s ideological world view, or telling men that “Men’s issues aren’t our problem.” Now if they just stuck to that last one, I don’t think anybody would have a problem with it (Or at least I wouldn’t) but you can’t spend the lifetime of an entire generation telling men that you don’t need them (fish and bicycles) and what happens to men isn’t your concern and then suddenly turn… Read more »
Actually, its not a War on Women when you realize that the single greatest threat to Human Civilization is over population what we really have is a War on Human Civilization.
Does anybody know where I can find the vote tally on those anti-vasectomy bills? I’m curious to see just how close they came to actually passing.
Wow, so many good comments, how did I miss this thread??? First of all, Toysoldiers makes a great point, per usual, regarding BC and insurance coverage, however I’d like to put a twist on it: I think condoms should be included in preventative healthcare, however not an unlimited amount. Moreover, I think it’s fair to cover women’s birth control under insurance plans provided by religious institutions to their employees because employer insurance plans are not a religious function. They are a secular, and government-regulated part of employment. Thus, people who are not Catholic/believe abortion and/or BC is immoral should not… Read more »
Thank you Zak. Appreciate it.
Julie, I enjoyed the back and forth with Eric. It reminded me of every argument I’ve ever seen on feminist websites. Well, almost every argument :o) Tell me if this sounds familiar: There’s an injustice that occurs to someone or group. Person A says, “That’s horrible. We should concentrate 100% of our effort on prosecuting the perpetrator and changing the environment so the aggrieved person/group can live in an environment free from assault.” Person B says, “I agree with Person A, but here’s something else to consider or think about.” It doesn’t matter what Person B says, does it? You… Read more »
I guess so? I was agreeing with Eric, laying out where I saw the problem happening and trying to figure out solutions, while asking questions and indicating the current work I’m doing to help the issue. If trying to think systemically about an issue loses people, I guess I can’t help that. I saw it more as an issue of a Now versus Future perspective, and that there wasn’t much in anything I as a feminist was doing that was considered worthwhile. Like I said, I’ll keep fighting for reproductive rights and sex positive advocacy for men and women, even… Read more »
And if you are suggesting that all that was needed was, “I hear you and I believe that sucks” empathy work, then I can offer that too. I’m quite used to working with people who are solution focused and less interested in feelings here on various threads, so if I missed that part, I’ll say it now, “It sounds terrible, frustrating and I clearly hear that.”
I guess also (speaking to myself here) I figure I write so many posts about social justice and compassion that that would be obvious, but perhaps not.
Julie, I feel like Eric was either not reading your comments, or not speaking to you. It’s strange, because normal people do not so intensely talk past another person in that way where direct statements go ignored. I’d be curious to see his explanation of that exchange once he’s reread all the comments… That said, I think you made your point well. As for vasectomies, I know for a fact that they are not illegal to perform w/o spousal consent. HOWEVER doctors have the right to refuse to provide them on a case-by-case basis for WHATEVER reason. Typically, lack spousal… Read more »
Zek, I read everything that Julie wrote but could/can-not respond to every single thing, especially during the week. I am leading a $100M+ contract renewal project. So, I’m often too tied up during the week to type out point by point responses. So I respond to what I can when I can. For instance, I wanted to respond to more points she made, such as the opt out period that I have mentioned here a many times; however, another issue kept bobbing up to the surface. Between Heather and Julie, eight (8) different times, they came back with the suggestion/comment… Read more »
Eric. You are confusing our asking questions about pragmatic (horrible) choices men may feel driven to make with agreeing with those choices. Apples to Oranges, Eric. Just like I would be appalled that a 14 year old girl might lie to her parents about an abortion (and again, not apples to apples in this scenario) not only for the lie, but the hiding, for the lack of prevention in place etc etc. But I might understand why she lies. It doesn’t mean I think it is a choice to make, to agree with. But I can understand the reasonings she… Read more »
Julie, nothing I have said here should be considered a personal criticism of you, even if we disagree. I may disagree with your ideas (since mine are always right – just kidding!!!) but I don’t doubt your sincerity, albeit terribly misguided when it conflicts with my views (tongue in cheek). However, you missed the whole point I have been trying to make. Mrs. Eric M. says that I need to be more direct; I am too obscure. The point was/is that it is a travesty of justice, discrimination, not a dilemma that needs a work around. I cited it as… Read more »
We both speak the same language but it seems we often don’t understand each other. I agree the situation is, frankly, fucked. Crass. But perhaps we agree onthat.
Eric, 2) There is no basis for a lawsuit. None. A woman’s basis for suing would be the doctor’s refusal to violate the HIPAA federal law. That wouldn’t even make it to court. Okay, I’m confused here. How would HIPAA be any woman’s basis for suing the doctor? The only who could conceivable sue the doctor would be the man! I apologize but I am not following your reasoning or seeing the numbers on your point about men being denied vasectomies because their wife said no… they came back with the suggestion/comment that maybe lying is a viable solution to… Read more »
“Okay, I’m confused here. How would HIPAA be any woman’s basis for suing the doctor? The only who could conceivable sue the doctor would be the man!” It’s not my reasoning. They both repeated stated that spousal consent would keep lawsuits away. If that is the case, why are only men required to get them? “I apologize but I am not following your reasoning or seeing the numbers on your point about men being denied vasectomies because their wife said no…” Again, it’s not my reasoning, it’s factual as you can see for yourself. Do this: Google, “vasectomy spousal consent… Read more »
“Do a on “lying” and “single.” You will find at least 3 or 4 questions/implications of such, such as ‘what keeps them from just saying they are single?’ (not an exact quote, but you get the idea)” Eric M, I cannot believe you. This makes me about as sad as any comment you have ever made to me, as angry as I think I may ever get with you. This is misrepresentation of Heather and I at it’s worst, and here after you even comments to me about understanding my position. Did we ask those questions? Yes. Is it because… Read more »
“This is misrepresentation of Heather and I at it’s worst, and here after you even comments to me about understanding my position.” How could it be misrepresentation when all I suggested was that he read your own comments for himself? He can reach his own conclusions based on what he reads, no? How can that be misrepresentation when he is getting his information directly from you? He is free to disagree with either of us, right? “You are fixated on the idea I think it is ok for men to have to lie to have autonomy over their body when… Read more »
The only reason I brought up 1964 was to use it as a point of reference for how wrong it was, and thusly, how wrong it would be for men dealing with same reason and as you noted, dealing with issues of yesteryear today.
This is where we get into trouble Eric. You read what I say, and I think you believe I mean it as justification, when I do not.
“This is where we get into trouble Eric. You read what I say, and I think you believe I mean it as justification, when I do not.”
I absolutely did not say or imply anything of the sort. You used that 1964 experience to show how horrible women had it back then. I simply used that to show that men in 2012 are in the same situation women were almost 50 years ago in terms of reprodutive rights.
And again, I agreed with you PRIOR to this last comment, so why feel the need to point out as if I’m trying to shell game you? I’m not. At least Eric, this is what my entire experience of this feels like. I offer examples of similar (also terrible) situations, empathize with the current situation, ask how to change it and you come back with “However, men are still living in 1964 as far as their reproductive rights. Little to nothing has changed for them. Literally.” As if my example showing how that’s not cool then NOR now, is invalid.… Read more »
I mean, honestly 😉 would it be so hard to say, “Yep, Julie you noted it was bad then for women and it’s bad now for men. You get it and wonder what to do about. I appreciate your being willing to see that.”
MOre than the topic itself that’s what I’m actually concerned with here. Either I’m typing jibberish, or I don’t understand your perspective on pushing back pointing out things I’ve said (but which are actually in alignment with you) or it’s a game.
Ugh. Anyway I suppose my fixation on solving the world through communication is my own issue here. Never mind, Eric. None of this really matters.
That you acknowledge that in 2012 men have no more reproductive than women had in 1964 is a good thing, and something that I haven’t ever heard a feminist state so plainly. So, thank you for that.
However, there is no way to improve that situation until our society no longer considers it proper to discirminate against males. As long as males are not considered deserving of equal rights and consideration, little to nothing can possibly improve in this and many other areas.
One last thing Eric, and I’m done. ““I did not see Julie or Heather doing that. Not in the slightest. I would have been horrified if they had.” Do a on “lying” and “single.” You will find at least 3 or 4 questions/implications of such, such as ‘what keeps them from just saying they are single?’ (not an exact quote, but you get the idea) I am only answering your question, not personally criticizing them.” Did we use the actual words? Yes. You win!! Did we actually advocate for it? No we did not, and that is what you are… Read more »
I’m sorry.
I think I messed up. I failed to insert in my comment this morning, as I intended to.
My objective was for him to search and find the comments and read them for himself. Accidentally leaving that out of the sentence may have made it appear that I was just using those words out of context. That was not my intent. If that’s how it was understood, I do sincerely apologize.
Got it.
Oh, I see – the system removed the control-F thing I typed!
That’s why it keeps not showing up.
Here’s the thing. I was just telling him to do a search, that’s it. The expression I used gets filtered out somehow. So, it wasn’t me; it was the system. Either way, it changed the sense of what I was trying to say and I was offline all day.
Eric is either digging at me because it’s fun for him, thus we are not engaging each other in the same way, or he’s so truly an ISTJ that he’s fixated on the piece of data (lying) that he can’t see the ideas and systemic exploration behind the word. I’m prone to digging behind the words as I’m a ENFP. It is as if, in discussing apples, I move to pies, blossoms, trees, Johnny Appleseed, poems, and genetic hybrids and he is still on the word apple. Literal. Absolutely literal. I did use the word lie. So did Heather. So… Read more »
I think that is the misunderstanding…you and I were asking about what prevents a man from lying as a way to understand the system better. I think he thought we were saying – so just lie, whatever, no problem.
Mind you, I’ve no idea what my Myers-Briggs thingy is.
It doesn’t matter. We used the word, so we must believe it’s ok to do. He won’t admit that he might be wrong here, not about the use of words (cause heck, I’m using words right now) but about us and why we used them.
Myers-Briggs is a bunch of pseudo-scientific nonsense anyway. You don’t need to know it. 🙂
Pbthththththtthth!
Why not unlimited condoms? Considering how very very cheap they are compared to morning after pills or abortions or unwanted children. Condoms are a special value offer for society, there should be *free* dispensers in pub toilets.
Couldn’t agree more.
For sure!
Not a universal solution, because so many people are lazy or careless about contraception or don’t believe in it, but no one should be getting pregnant because condoms are just too hard to get ahold of! Some men would like to use a condom but have trouble maintaining an erection with one on. Some men would be willing to use a condom but are allergic to latex, so they may require a material that’s much more expensive. There are valid exceptions out there.
There still seems to be some legal gray area about a man’s ownership of his own sperm, and that’s something very important to work out with the growing use of IVF treatments and other developments. From what I understand, there are some very rare cases in which sperm was removed (“harvested”) from a recently deceased man (we gotta move quickly on this!) so that his wife/partner could try one more time to have a baby with the man in her life. I think that impulse is perfectly understandable, but it raises the issue of how much control a man has… Read more »
“Try to get a vasectomy from some doctors and you’ll discover that you’re not allowed to make decisions about the use of your own sperm. You are not allowed to make those decisions on your own.” Hang on a moment…since when is someone not allowed to make a medical decision for themselves? In the U.S. at least, I’m pretty sure that legally a man can get a vasectomy without their partner’s knowledge, let alone agreement. Or do you just mean that some doctors ignore the law and will refuse to perform a vasectomy on a man without letting his wife/girlfriend/whatever… Read more »
Doctors ignore the law because they don’t want to be sued. But whatever the reason, even if it is legal it’s a barrier to access. Now, I have it in my head to have my husband or male friend call all the clinics around Austin and ask, because I’d like to see what’s going on here in town.
“Doctors ignore the law because they don’t want to be sued.” – Well and with the malpractice insurance they have to pay, I can’t say as I quite blame them for that. (Only half-joking there).
But yeah, I’d be interested in seeing like, I dunno, actual stats on how many doctors actually won’t perform a vasectomy without a partner’s agreement. If that’s the case, it’s messed up.
Google “spousal vasectomy permission” or “consent” or “agreement” “form. ” You’ll find hundreds of doctors who have their forms online. Of course, many doctors don’t post their forms online, but the fact that you can find so many online shows how pervasive this practice is. (The reproductive rights people would be all OVER this if they cared) Or have a male friend call a bunch of doctors and say he wants the procedure done but wants to make sure that his wife doesn’t know because she disagrees, and see what the response is. It should make no difference in whether… Read more »
Alright but my question will mirror Julie’s and ask what prevents a guy from lying and just saying he’s single?
Your regular GP: So you broke up with *insert wife’s name here*?
Another GP: Why aren’t you going to your regular GP?
I’m not saying there aren’t ways around it, but it shouldn’t be necessary. Any more than a woman should have to justify her decision not to have a child.
Neither are we, mind you. I think both of us are trying to wrap our head around the concept you’d have to ask. My experience with men and vasectomies isn’t like this. I do, however know women who lied (to doctors, to parents etc) around birthcontrol and abortion. Not the same thing I know, but I don’t think anyone should have to lie.
So, FYI Heather and I don’t think this is cool right? What we are asking is, and this isn’t a good answer and we get that, but if he does in and says he’s single…
And what about the cases of people I know having easy times of it, no slips? Are they lyiing to me? I mean I’m asking! I’m actively trying to research this.
I’m sure there’s plenty of people who have no trouble accessing them. Just as most women’s employer’s won’t mind covering contraception. The question is whether it’s acceptable for a minority of men to be denied autonomy in this manner and whether its ok that the national conversation only concern’s women’s reproductive rights.
And I think I’ve made my point that it isn’t acceptable, yes? Where am I saying it’s fine and dandy?
Sounds like we need to fix this the all American way with some men willing to take a lawsuit on in a big way.
Very few doctors will perform a vasectomy without the permission of the female partner.
This demonstrate that men have no reproductive rights. Despite this being a clear HIPAA violation, and despite doctors publicly stating that this is their official policy, the US government has never disciplined or even cited one doctor for violating HIPAA in this way.
You cannot be sued for complying with the law.
And if you don’t currently have a partner and are relatively young, the doctor may be even less likely to do it….
I suppose it depends on the doc and how much work you are willing to put in. I know several 25 year old Austin TX men, single etc who had it done with no problems whatsoever.
Not an expert here, but I believe there are still some states where a married man must get some sort of permission from his wife before he can get a vasectomy, or at least he is required to show that he talked to his wife about it beforehand. In some other states, this is not the law exactly but it’s considered a “best practices” standard of the state medical licensing boards. In the vast majority of cases, you’re right, it’s the physician’s own policy or the policy of the clinic or partnership. It’s mostly to avoid legal liability of someone… Read more »
Great points. The intent is likely not nefarious, though focused on avoiding suit, and the outcome though takes choice AWAY.
Sorry, I was mistaken. It is not quite as dire as I thought it was. I did a little more very light research, and it looks like in the U.S. there are NO laws requiring a married man get his wife’s permission to get a vasectomy. I think in Britain that may have been the case at one point, or at least was a standard practice in the health care system. I can see how such a law would be hard to enforce anyway. A man has no legal obligation to tell a doctor what his marital status is, or… Read more »
Right, that’s what I don’t understand. So you go in and lie and say you aren’t married. Can they prove you are married? Can they investigate? And if YOU lie, it’s not on their heads is it? I know a lot of men locally who have gotten snipped and no one has said they were required to get a note. May vary state by state.
Why should men need to lie if abortion or tubal ligation seeking women don’t need to lie?
Mate, Julie and I are saying that if doctors are refusing vasectomies without a partner’s permission, then it’s a bad deal. But on a completely practical level, we’re saying…what’s stopping men from lying?
He’s not hearing that. He’s also not hearing that women get refusals from docs on Tubals too. And god forbid you are in a city with mostly catholic clinics, cause you can’t get a tubal AT ALL. You might have to travel out of network. The way I see it? Permanent BC for men or women isn’t an easy thing to get for anyone. No one believes the young, no one trusts the marrieds. Oral BC is great but it leaves men out in a way. Condoms? I keep bringing up condoms and it’s like men hate them so much… Read more »
I don’t think they should have to Eric. Jesus, I’m actually on your side here. What I”m asking is…does a clinic require proof of singleness? In fact, I’ve met women who have been turned down for tubals too. Told “you’ll change your mind.” “Have you discussed this with your husband.” Doctors are scared shitless of lawsuits more than they give a damn about patient choice. I can’t even get Anti biotics when I want them, when I KNOW I have a sinus infection. I have to wait three days, come back, pay another damn $30 copay and yep, I get… Read more »
What if not all men are liars? What if a married man wears a ring? What if the a married man says yes if asked if he’s married? Would you be asking this of a woman seeking an abortion? Or would you be upset that lying was suggested as the solution ? Women being turned down for being considered too young and men being turned down because his mommy-wife refused to give consent are not even close to being the same. That I even have to make that statement illustrates my point. There is no lawsuit issue here. None since HIPAA… Read more »
Eric, please listen to what we are saying. We aren’t say all men are liars. And we aren’t saying it’s a good solution, or even that it should be the solution. We’re asking…is there a reason why men cannot lie about their marriage status when going in for a vasectomy? i.e. Do hospitals ask for proof of your marriage status before agreeing or disagreeing to perform a vasectomy?
I am going to say this one more time, Eric. I am on your side. I am on the side of adults getting to make decisions about their bodies. I am aware there are significant systemic issues in place from soup to nuts (no pun intended) creating a barrier to men getting the access to reproductive rights that they want. I am not a proponent of lying. I am not a proponent of men having “mommywives” or women having “daddyfathers” but equal partners making difficult decisions while realizing they don’t either own each other’s body. I can’t make my husband… Read more »
“We’re asking…is there a reason why men cannot lie about their marriage status when going in for a vasectomy? Yes, there is. 1) His wife might want to come with him. 2) He might simply not want to lie. 3) He might not have taken his wedding ring off for years, and it’s too late to do it now. 4) He might know the doctor already. “i.e. Do hospitals ask for proof of your marriage status before agreeing or disagreeing to perform a vasectomy?” In some cases they will know no matter what you say at the time, especially if… Read more »
Heather, Eric I think we have a Myers Briggs personality difference here.
I’m an enfp and if I had to put money
On Eric? Would say istp. 180 degree difference in how we process info. Heather you and I are thinking possibility, future, general, free associating and I think Eric is coming back with concrete ideas and so the whole concvo is a mismatch. Google mbti.com
Julie, again, women don’t have to lie about their marital status to get abortions.
If you consider pointing this out lecturing you, that’s your choice. I am simply pointing out the facts here.
It’s clear that that’s the only thing that you are interested in in my email. Not my agreement with you about the mess we are in. Not my ideas for looking ahead. Is it ideal for men to lie. I’ve already answered no. They shouldn’t have to. But I don’t think anyone should have to lie about any of the things people wind up lying about. I’m still not convinced that men can’t get vasectomies. I’ve got ample examples here in austin says they didn’t need to get permission from anyone. Not the point. You don’t care about my advocacy.… Read more »
The solution to all this is simple. Demand women be independent and support themselves. Men don’t owe women and women’s children or women’s families anything. I’m not trying to be facetious here but it’s true. We can’t have women’s rights when men have the responsibility. I will never marry a woman.
HIPAA. This policy violates that law. You cannot be sued for complying with federal law, or refusing to violate it.
I googled “do you need to get permission from your wife before getting a vasectomy” and the first thing that came up is https://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/are-men-legally-required-to-ask-their-spouses-permission-for-a-vasectomy/ I haven’t actually read the article so forgive me if it’s totally unrelated. But seeing as it’s from this very site it can’t be completely off the wall.
The larger piece of wisdom I got from the article is for men to be aware that the politics of birth control are not just a women’s issue. Things that restrict women’s access to birth control are also things that affect men’s reproductive lives. There doesn’t need to be any grandstanding to MAKE men more involved. Men are already going to be affected by any changes in women’s access to birth control. If you think political leaders will only limit women’s reproductive options and not men’s, you are fooling yourself. There’s a similar issue with political agendas about sex and… Read more »
Firstly I don’t agree with what the right wing politicians are doing at all. This I think is what women don’t understand some men, I am one of those men want equal reproductive rights. In this country men have NO reproductive rights. Although the national debate and this article is centered on the “Pill” reproductive rights to a greater degree rests on the access to abortions. I think very few women really understand what it means to give men the same freedom women have when it comes to the right to choose weather or not to keep a child. Obviously… Read more »
Thanks for this, would you see my post response to Eric? What inroads can we make to more options more choice?
I do not think this is a war on women. That is a very catchy tag line meant to scare progressive women, but the reality is that the conversation is about a moral issue (abortion) and a religious issue (forcing religious organizations to pay for the birth control pill). The latter was a misstep on the Obama administration’s part. I am no fan of religion, yet I do understand that some religions do not support the use of contraceptives. They have a right to refuse to pay for those services for anyone if it is part of their religious views.… Read more »
Regarding vasectomies: Even if proposed legislation(s) to ban or limit their availability was just a bad joke, there remains a HUGE disparity where a man’s access to a vasectomy is concerned. It has long been known that a woman seeking to snuff out a new life in her womb is entitled, by law, to privacy and autonomy regarding her decision and the eventual procedure. Men seeking a vasectomy have no such legal protection in place. Granted, some doctors, upon being asked to perform a vasectomy will have a guy drop his pants and get it done, no questions asked. Usually,… Read more »
“(Let’s be clear here: No one is actually threatening vasectomies—either their legal status, or their almost universal coverage by insurance companies. Vasectomies are widely understood to be relatively simple and safe procedures that fall under the category of preventive health.)” Lets be clear here: By turning a “religious beliefs vs. personal freedom” thing into a “men vs. women” thing those women completely destroyed any possibility for a real debate, not to mention the fact that some of those bills nearly passed (surprise surprise, the religious right are against sex, not women). This whole article reeks of men being asked (instructed)… Read more »
“(Let’s be clear here: No one is actually threatening vasectomies—either their legal status, or their almost universal coverage by insurance companies. Vasectomies are widely understood to be relatively simple and safe procedures that fall under the category of preventive health.)” uhh, introducing a bill to make vasectomies illegal does exactly this. also why should i support people who want abortion rights so bad they are willing to play “tongue and cheek” games with my ability to get snipped? They have a problem and since they can’t get me to protest for them they decide to attack me until i fight… Read more »
The “anti-snip” bills are meant to send a message. They are arbitrary and ridiculous, like much of the much of the anti-choice legislation GOP members are obsessing over. The snip bills would never pass (of course). But a lot of the anti-choice bills regarding abortion and access to birth control almost did and some WILL and then, yes, your sexual lifestyle will be oppressed my friend. Because if you are not ready to have a child, and your future girlfriend/wife is not ready to have a child, or faces health risks, then at the rate we’re going you both would… Read more »
“The “anti-snip” bills are meant to send a message. They are arbitrary and ridiculous, like much of the much of the anti-choice legislation GOP members are obsessing over. The snip bills would never pass (of course).” this is a blanket assumption, the FACT is that any bill proposed has the possibility of passing and while its supporters may be few and their for pose very little threat, it still poses one where previously there was none. Weather you throw a rock or a water ballon at somebody’s head, it is still an attack. And women attacking all men because they… Read more »
“And women attacking all men because they feel threatened is not self defense, it’s vengeance.”
I don’t think I’d call it vengeance…I’d call it reactionary. It is using an arbitrary and ridiculous bill to highlight the arbitrary and ridiculousness of the anti-choice legislation. I’m not saying it’s the best tactic in the world…but that’s the point of it. It’s not actually trying to make vasectomies illegal.
Anyway, it’s not attacking all men. By your own admission you don’t have sex with women, so making vasectomies illegal doesn’t affect you anyway. (That was a bit snarky).
I don’t think I’d call it vengeance…I’d call it reactionary. It is using an arbitrary and ridiculous bill to highlight the arbitrary and ridiculousness of the anti-choice legislation. I’m not saying it’s the best tactic in the world…but that’s the point of it. It’s not actually trying to make vasectomies illegal. thats not my pont, my point is it CAN. I don’t really care why their doing it, what matters is weather the thing passess or not than the threat of it doing so, not why they did it. Yes it’s reactionary and “arbitrary” in the opinions of some, it… Read more »
Is there a way to tag these bills as dummy, so they have 0% chance to pass but still get read? If not, then it’s an attack on male health even if done in protest. If you put this action into play that has a chance of passing then it’s still an attack
+1
What do you define as chance of passing? Anything greater than 0%? Just because you call it an attack on male health doesn’t make it true. In most legislatures there are several steps needed before a bill becomes law. These, in particular, were offered as amendments to pending legislation and there was no way in hell they were passing. Recall that in Oklahoma Sen. Johnson also sponsored the “Every Sperm is Sacred” amendment that would have criminalized the depositing of sperm anywhere outside of a woman’s vagina. While there are plenty of religious nut jobs that might support such legislation… Read more »
Yep. They are satire and political theater done in reaction to bills that DO have ample chance of passage (the sono laws, the personhood bills).
I can try light my wall on fire, it’s gyprock with a low chance of igniting but there’s still risk involved. An attack is still an attack, even with a low chance, even when made in jest. A person starting a rumor to highlight the sillyness of someone in an office which has a chance greater than 0% of impacting their life is still an attack. You will see some mega backlash probably anti-feminism if it does pass though. I don’t understand why they can’t make the bill so crazy that it is destined to fail, why there are no… Read more »
Let’s email, Archy. In the US this adding on to bills with something ridiculous is common practice. It was never a real attempt.
Sure, I have no idea how these bills work (which shows), so dummy bills exist already? I just hope Australia doesn’t follow suit but generally we have stuff covered under medicare, I think most of the reproductive health services for men and women are covered in some way.
There’s a very provocative, highly controversial chapter in the book _Freakonomics_ that suggests that good access to abortion translates into a lower crime rate over the long term. The idea there is that when unwanted children are not born, there are fewer people who grow up in horrible situations and fewer who will turn to crime. This argument is deeply flawed in many ways, but it’s just an extreme possible example of the fact that the reproductive choices of people have long term impacts on other people down the road. Whether or not people have access to safe, reliable birth… Read more »
and since access to birth control is not the PRIMARY reason unwanted children are made, and I have zero control over weather or not people USE the options available to them, I would assume that nothing will change in 20 years, with or without easy access to BC and or abortion since people wil do what they want.
I see your point. It’s important in the birth control debate to remember that in the US today about HALF of all pregnancies are unplanned. That includes being lazy or careless about birth control, not even thinking about birth control, having a real “oopsie,” having a planned “oopsie,” etc. You can make birth control available, but that doesn’t mean people will use it. In many cases it just means that irresponsible or deluded people reproduce more than thoughtful ones do….
I rather like this feminist perspective on the need for male rights concerning parenthood. http://godlessbitches.blogspot.com/
Wow, I was being facetious when I said in my comment on the IVF legality article (https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/think-we-should-keep-ivf-legal/) that: “Men should care about women’s issues because they care about women, not because some parties overstate how many men are directly impacted as well. It’s like you are saying that men should care about Planned Parenthood being threatened because they’ll stop getting free condoms.” The author here wrote: “Men: Rush Limbaugh insulted you, too. If, for example, you have ever taken a free condom from a student center in order to engage in safe sex—in other words, if anyone else ever paid… Read more »
Furthermore, men don’t even have a right to shared parenting and to be a father. One “I’m scared” or “he hurt me” accusation under VAWA may very well separate a man from his child for life. It happened to my brother. They make you say you’re guilty and promise if you do so you can visit your child. Then your self indictment is used in a divorce proceeding. Your love of your child is used against you. Even without VAWA men have a hard enough time as it is just to be a parent and to be a part of… Read more »
Don’t be ridiculousness the stupidest legislation on earth have been pushed forward lately in a kakamaimy attempt to hand over women’s reproductive rights to “God”. Personally I think these Religious Authoritarian dumb asses are doing the republican party a disservice.
I mean really?, “Thou Shalt Have thy’n Rapist Child”, “Thou whilst Be Penetrated Via Ultrasound to please thy lord?” give me a break!
This is the political right asserting it’s last vestige of social dominance on women as a group.
I agree, Budmin. The legislation itself is disgraceful, shaming, and blatantly driven by religious fanaticism. It’s wrong in every way, and I hope it’s defeated.
But men have no stake in this battle. Our situation if the legislation passes remains the same: we go from having no rights to… still having no rights.
@Copyleft ditto, “A Woman’s Right to Choose means A Woman’s Responsibility To Fight”.
The vast majority of doctors will refuse to perform a vasectomy without a woman’s permission. Not a single complaint about that from the bill sponsors or any other so-called reproductive rights groups. Their hostility toward makes is in evidence by their callous indifference over rights violations experienced by men that they would never stand for if women experienced them at anywhere near the scale men do. Anybody who believes they have any concern whatsoever (i.e. more than zero) about men’s reproductive rights done been took, hoodwinked, bamboozled, led astray, and run amok. They, however, are happy to ensure that, for… Read more »
I am going to ask a very very honest, non snarky question. In terms of reproductive choice for the sexes that reproduce together, what would an ideal look like? As a thought experiment obviously. Given that sperm and egg create child, what would an ideal BC plan look like to avoid unwanted pregnancies? Given that STI’s still exist, how to address these? I’d appreciate good faith answers. I’m not being snarky or mean and really want to know what that idea collaboration would look like. For me-barrier methods would always be employed if partners were untested or new. There are… Read more »
Finally, men and women? Don’t stick your junk in/on crazy, no matter how hot. Sadly, that’s part of the deal I think. I’m all for people getting to have one-nighters, but know they carry more risk for both of you than actually taking a day or two to get references. References!
“Don’t stick your junk in crazy, no matter how hot.”
Amen! A perfect way to put it.
Except crazy doesn’t always wear a sign around its neck either
How do you know who is crazy? There are people who are charming as hell until they have a child and then crazy comes out, or even just charming for a year, 2 years and something happens. I’ve been completely flabbergasted by some peoples behaviours, add something like lust and love into the mix which can cause a bias/blindness to the crazy behaviour it can be quite easy for some people to trick others.
Hell, how many men here watch their partner take her pill?
Yep. Goes both ways. I guess you wait a damn good long time before having kids with that person.
One part of the ideal: The medical community needs to take it seriously when an adult says he or she wants to be sterilized. Your job as a doctor is to let the patient know about the risks, make sure the patient understands about the permanence of the procedure, make sure the patient is of sound mind if there’s any real reason to doubt that. After that, get on with it. If you need to cover your liability butt with waivers, so be it. If you want the patient to sign something that says “I take full responsibility, and if… Read more »
I would really like to see a viable temporary/easily reversible male contraceptive. Every few years I read about a company which has developed a male “Pill” but those news stories never seem to make it past the science pages and into real life. I have heard people argue from the woman’s perspective “how can women trust men to take a male pill?” I say those arguments are not truly valid, I would gladly take a pill every day if it meant I didn’t need to worry about my girlfriend becoming pregnant, she is on the, female, pill and I do… Read more »
“But despite that trust I feel that I can’t truly take 100% responsibility because the best I can do is trust that she’s doing what she needs to, not actively do something on my own.” I am agreeing with what you’re saying in your reply, except for the above quote. Condoms, mate. You can actively do something on your own, and that is wear a condom. I totally agree men should have a pill too, and I also totally think that the “women can’t trust men to take the pill,” is completely bogus. However, until the male pill comes about,… Read more »
Well, I do have to give you that one! It is very true.
RISUG is the most promising form of male BC. Invented in India it’s in trials here. However, like the IUD it’s a one time deal (will probably be pricey) and will take a hard lobby to get it in place. Condoms are cheap but you have to keep buying them. The BC has to be purchased each month ($$$ for the industry). “But I think that the biggest hurdle to get over is for society to fully accept sex as a recreational act which would help in this debate tremendously because without fully accepting sex as a recreational activity all… Read more »
In my mind, the ideal balance of rights would look something like this. a) If a woman wants to abort the child, that should be a done deal. The man should have no say in the matter. b) If the woman wants to keep the child, then b1) If by some predetermined time the man does not back away from paternal responsibilities, then the man is responsible for the child for the next 18 years b2) If the man, within the predetermined time limit, backs away from the paternal responsibilities, then the woman can decide to keep the child, or… Read more »
“We need to hold each other accountable in our partnerships, our communities, and in public.”
Ma’am, with all due respect I hope you can understand that you can only hold someone accountable for something if the are responsible for something. The only gender that is held accountable is men. In fact I can’t really think of anything women are accountable for. This includes the ramifications of divorce, even when the woman initiates it AND under no fault divorce provisions. Again I hope you can understand, women have choices….men responsibility.
“We need to acknowledge the place of men in these issues, to insist on their role as reproductive actors, and on their reproductive rights, too.”
Men have no reproductive rights. In fact any rights or say in the matter are removed from us so that women’s rights and choices can be enabled. Men are simply forced to comply or go to jail.
For all the protestations about men’s rights and involvement, this really does wind up being another gynocentric article… men should get involved for women’s benefit. “I want you to be outraged… that no one has even acknowledged your role as a reproductive actor at center stage. It’s as if babies got made completely without you.” LOL! Where’ve you been Misty? Men have known that for years, and we’ve been outraged about it and fighting it for years too. And guess where our primary opposition has come from on that front? Feminism. No thanks… this is your battle. YOU fight it.… Read more »
Wait….men can’t abort…we have responsibilities. Women have rights and choices and men the burden and responsibility to enable those choices. This is why men should always wear a condom. My mother warned me never to believe a woman who tells you she’s on the pill and I live by that advice.
Men are THE ONLY gender responsible for conception. Women would love to keep it this way in order to enable their choices.
Lol, men have no representation as a social or political class. I think this is women’s responsibility. When the male pill was proposed in other countries the women’s union was against men having such power. Besides, the female pill does nothing for men. Only an idiot trusts a woman who says she’s on birth control.
Furthermore, if a woman gets pregnant just inform her that you abort. What she does then is her choice.