Joanna Schroeder offers a practical guideline to couples who are challenged with mis-matched libidos.
Let’s be honest—sex is a big deal. Great sex makes you feel like you’ve transcended into some heavenly plane. For some people, it’s a bond between partners that can’t be created in any other way. When you look at it objectively, it’s sort of odd what a big deal we humans have made of it. It’s two bodies, moving in a weird way, with the ultimate goal of achieving orgasm, a goal which can be reached any other number of ways without all the mess. And yet if you consider all of our sex-related industries here in the USA—from pornography to Viagra and everything else—we worship sex probably even more than we worship any religion. Any way you look at it, sex matters to human beings.
That’s why a loss of libido is such a huge deal. When once you were full of desire and lust, now you feel like a flat line—no ups, no downs, no nothin’. You can observe someone is attractive, you can remember when you had insane sex, but it becomes sort of like skiing or shooting skeet. It’s fun to do a few times a year, but you don’t need to do it every day. You most likely don’t even think about it all that often.
In the times when a person’s libido is low, having sex is so far from his or her mind that often it doesn’t even occur to them that they aren’t having it. Lots of people find those times in life to be very productive for work and other non-sexual relationships. Of course, problems arise when person who is in the “flat line” stage is in a monogamous relationship with someone who’s still burning with desire. Then it feels terrible for everyone.
♦◊♦
There are a lot of caricatures of a sexless marriage, first and foremost that of the couple who had a blisteringly hot sex life early on in their relationship, and once kids come along, the wife is no longer interested. Her sexy lace nighties become giant flannel pajamas buttoned up to the neck. Eventually, the husband becomes so weary from being rejected that he either has an affair or shuts down completely and becomes an asexual being, completely emasculated.
The next caricature of a sexless marriage is one in which the woman becomes a bitter crow of a wife who uses sex as a tool to get what she wants or as a weapon to punish her husband for being “bad”—and not in a fun way, like with a spanking—but by abstaining from him, forcing him to the couch. The man in this scenario is so sex-starved and sex-crazed that he will do anything to get some, and will always relent, leaving this caricature of a wife smirking over his shoulder with her new Prada bag by the bedside.
We often hear both of these scenarios referred to as “withholding sex”, when in truth, only the latter is actually withholding sex. In both situations, the couple isn’t having sex the way they used to, and both are probably dissatisfied. But in the first scenario, the person who has no desire isn’t “withholding it”—they simply don’t have it to give.
And that’s where the point of miscommunication becomes tragic. In many relationships (we’re going to presume the relationships we’re talking about are monogamous, for the sake of this article) both partners feel entitled to sex—and to a certain type and frequency. Both partners feel entitled to have their needs met by their partners, and because of their belief in monogamy, they cannot have their needs met elsewhere.
But the truth is, we aren’t actually entitled to anything—even when we’re committed to monogamy. Sex is sort of like a gift given from one person to the other, and it becomes truly great when both partners are equally giving. As Dan Savage says, “good, giving and game” are the three Gs that are the foundation of a great sex life.
In reality, during 50 years of a life together (some lucky ones get 75 years, imagine that!), we’re not always going to be able to be good, giving and game. Sometimes we are a flat line. Sometimes we have no desire. Sometimes we need a lot of space and don’t want to be touched. That’s life as a human. It’s messy and imperfect and trying to match two humans together is almost never easy.
I think most people recognize that this mismatch will occur at times, but they intellectualize it and don’t quite realize the impact it could have upon their relationship as a whole. And the harm done to a relationship that becomes sexless over time isn’t necessarily from the lack of sex itself, but from a fundamental miscommunication that happens which can turn a good thing toxic…and fast.
♦◊♦
In order for me to explain this miscommunication, I’m going to have to do some generalizing. What we all know is that gender expression is an ever-shifting spectrum of masculine and feminine traits, and no one person owns the definition of what is “manly” or “womanly”. But there are some general trends we’re going to cite here in order to facilitate the conversation. Knowing that we’re generalizing, we recognize that anyone who doesn’t feel this way or fall into this pattern is just as authentic and entitled to their own way of being.
Also, while most of this article will presume that either partner can have a loss of libido, there is a unique challenge when a male partner goes through a lack of desire. While we won’t dive into the specifics of that here, please check out a unique and helpful article called “But He’s Supposed to Want it More”: The Damaging Expectation of Higher Male Desire by Hugo Schwyzer.
With those caveats in mind, let me explain how these sexual ups and downs become toxic and snowball into huge divisive issues.
First, there is a fundamental divide between the way most women and men regard sex. As traditional thinking goes, there is a saying: “Women need to have intimacy in order to have sex whereas men need to have sex in order to experience intimacy.” That’s a HUGE generalization, but sometimes there’s a kernel of truth there. My blogging partner, Eli, and I always joke about how foreplay to a man need only be his partner saying, “Wanna have sex?” His partner could look ugly, smell bad, be sick or have just eaten a head of raw garlic and he’d still want to do it. It’s a joke, but the truth is that for many guys it’s easy to get turned on and easy to perform.
For some women, all the factors have to be right. Not only do the sheets have to be clean, but her legs have to be shaved, the kids have to be away at the grandparents’ for the weekend, and Mercury can’t be in retrograde.
Thankfully, this is just a joke, but the truth behind it is important to understand. In a relationship, if one is an “always on” and the other is an “only in certain circumstances” person, the “always on” is going to have his or her feelings hurt by multiple rejections. It feels very personal. When his wife says, “I’m not in the mood, work was so stressful today,” or “I’m bloated,” the husband who is an “always on” can’t help but imagine what it would mean if he begged out of sex. To him, it would mean, “I don’t like you enough to have sex with you.”
In turn, an “always on” woman who is rejected multiple times may also have to contend with a cultural voice that has taught her that men are sex-crazed and always horny. When a woman is faced with a man who has a lower libido than her, she may not only question her own desirability, but also his fidelity, masculinity, or even whether he’s gay. In truth, he may love her dearly and desire her completely and still have a lower libido. This doesn’t make him less of a man, it simply breaks with the cultural narrative about men and sex that we’ve been hearing since the first time we heard the phrase, “boys are only after one thing.”
Let’s take a moment with the part that both genders may share: the shame. When the higher-libido partner is rejected multiple times, he or she thinks, I am not desirable and maybe even I am not lovable—no matter how untrue it may be.
He can tell himself that his wife is different from him, but often there’s an internal voice that says, “That’s just an excuse, man, she just doesn’t like you. You’re too _____ and she just doesn’t want to do it with you.” On top of that, society tells the guy that he’s not supposed to feel bad about himself, he’s not supposed to feel fat or ugly or hairy or short or whatever message the rejection keys into. He’s a dude, he’s supposed to feel awesome about himself at all times. Insecurity, especially body or sexual insecurity, is for chicks.
And so he probably wasn’t given the language to say to his partner, “I know you’re not in the mood and I respect that, but I gotta be honest… Being rejected makes me wonder if there’s something about me that you don’t like, and I’m worried that I don’t turn you on anymore. Even worse, I’m worried that I’ll never turn you on again and that really makes me feel like crap.”
♦◊♦
It’s not just men who have communication problems when it comes to sex in long-term relationships. The first assumption about men and sex that many women go into relationships with is that the desire for sex isn’t really about us. You’re men, you’re sex-crazed. We’ve been told this since our first sex-ed class. Even if we know better intellectually, a part of us often tells us that your desire to have sex has more to do with putting your thing in a warm spot, and less to do with knowing, loving, or connecting with us. So we think our rejection of you won’t phase you. Sure, it might make you mad or frustrated, but we don’t assume it’s going to hurt you.
Beyond that, there is an idea in our minds that if we do any little thing that might turn you on, we’re guilty of feeding your frustration and therefore deserving of your anger. When I worked in retail buying, a coworker of mine and I were ordering cute pajamas for the store. We would tack on an extra of any item we wanted to buy for ourselves once the delivery came. There were a lot of traditional top-and-bottom sets and a few sexy little shorts or nighties. I asked my friend if she wanted me to put one on the order for her.
“No way,” she said. “I can’t wear anything but sweats to bed. I don’t want Sean to get the wrong idea.”
This is an example of how we’ve turned sexuality into an all-or-nothing equation. If Karen wore a tank top and little shorts to bed, Sean would want to have sex, and if she wasn’t in the mood just then, she would be the guilty party who incited his desire and then rejected him. And so she only wore sweats to bed, every single night, as an insurance policy that if Sean became aroused, it somehow wasn’t her responsibility.
As goofy as the pajama example may seem, this all-or-nothing attitude does a lot of damage to marriages, and ultimately it’s the fault of both partners. As we said before, sometimes the guy doesn’t feel comfortable enough to say, “the lack of affection or sex is really hurting my feelings. I’m starting to feel really bad about myself.” Even if he did, because of our expectations that men are obsessed with sex and are almost animalistic, the woman may not be able to hear the statement without defensiveness. She may be hearing, “You’re an asshole for not having sex with me,” instead of, “I feel like an asshole because of desiring you when you don’t desire me back.”
The version that the woman is hearing is filled with blame, guilt, responsibility and maybe even a threat (of him looking elsewhere to have his needs fulfilled), regardless of whether he intended them to be there. And let me tell you what will kill someone’s libido: guilt.
This guilt is what keeps many lower-libido partners from reaching out for non-sexual affection or non-penis-in-vagina (PIV) sex. If you think you might not want to have intercourse, the idea of reaching across the bed for a snuggle, or intertwining bare legs, or even kissing, becomes guilt-inducing. You think, if I snuggle in and spoon, he might think I want to have sex. Then I’ll have to say ‘no’ and he’ll be mad and I’ll feel like a jerk again. And so that gap between two partners who once couldn’t keep their hands off one another becomes a giant chasm, and both partners are left unsatisfied. Now they’re not only not having sex, they also have lost all physical affection.
♦◊♦
So, how do we bridge this gap?
With honest communication where both partners are ready to engage without defensiveness. I like a version of the Imago Therapy model of mirroring, particularly a model set up by Dr. Bill Cloke in his book Happy Together: Creating a Lifetime of Connection, Commitment, and Intimacy. I’ve simplified both the method in Dr. Cloke’s book and the Imago method into a simple bare-bones framework so that it’s a great place to start communicating about sex. I highly recommend reading Happy Together for more ideas and further extrapolation. Also, this is sort of a cheat-sheet to help you get started, but I highly recommend seeing a therapist individually and/or as a couple for more information.
The first step is for one person to say how they feel about something—one simple thought or feeling. This is done without accusation, just a statement of how they feel. The partner listens quietly until the first person is done with the first thought. Then, instead of defending or even responding, the second partner tries to re-state what she heard so that everyone’s clear on what’s being said. It might look like this:
“Karen, I feel like our sex life has really fallen off a cliff lately, and I love you and I really miss that connection.”
At this point, Karen needs to remind herself that she is not to be defend herself, as much as she may want to. Instead, her job is to tell Sean what she believes he’s saying. She could say this:
“What I’m hearing, Sean, is that we aren’t having much sex lately and that you miss having sex.”
And he can correct her here if he wants. He may say something like, “It’s not just the sex, I really miss the connection we have when we’re having more sex.”
Then she can say, “Okay, I get it. It’s not just the sex, it’s also that connection.”
At this point she can say how she feels about this subject, and the roles will be reversed. He listens quietly and then repeats what he thinks she’s saying, and they clarify until both people feel heard.
Karen may then say, “I miss the connection too, and I really miss my libido. I don’t know what happened to me. But every time I say ‘no’ I feel so guilty, and I know you’re upset, and that makes me feel worse, and then I really don’t want to have sex.”
Sean then repeats what he thinks she’s saying. The couple continues this pattern until they both feel more resolution. The key here is to just try to understand what your partner is saying. Don’t judge and don’t defend. Just explain, listen and clarify. Those three words will get you where you need to go.
If anyone starts to feel really angry, the best thing you can do is walk away for 20 minutes with a reassurance that you want to try talking again in 20 minutes. As Dr. Cloke points out, once a person’s blood pressure starts to rise and they feel evoked, it’s hard for them to remain reasonable and stick to the guidelines of the communication model. And the goal isn’t to dump anger on someone, it’s to move through and past the issues that are making us angry.
Once you have a really good understanding of what’s happening inside each other, you can move on to the final steps of finding ways to avoid the problem in the future by doing things differently.
You wouldn’t try to cut down a tree with a kitchen knife. It may get the job done, but it’s far from the best tool for the job. If someone can offer you a saw—or better yet, a 316E Husqvarna chainsaw—you should at least give it a shot.
|
I know it seems really forced to keep repeating each other’s words. No one wants to follow a script to talk to the person they’ve been with for years and are in love with. But the script is just a tool, like any other. You wouldn’t try to cut down a tree with a kitchen knife. It may get the job done, it may even be what you’re used to, but it’s far from the best tool for the job. If someone can offer you a saw—or better yet, a 316E Husqvarna chainsaw—you should at least give it a shot.
♦◊♦
Finally, I have to address the people who actually do purposefully withhold sex—the ones like the woman with the Prada bag in the caricature I referenced in the very beginning. Those people are jerks. Sex is not a tool. It is not a weapon to be wielded. And unless you’re a sex worker or client, it is not a commodity to be bartered.
There may be traditional relationships where this works, I can’t say for sure, but in my mind, sex should never be used as a tool for manipulation. In a famous scene in the Bravo home remodeling reality series Flipping Out, a wife tells lead designer Jeff Lewis that he can’t go over budget because she’s all out of sexual favors, which is the only reason her husband allowed her to do the renovation in the first place. It’s a joke, we all laugh, but in truth this is probably a pretty unhealthy model for a long-term relationship.
In this scenario, she may feel like her voice, wants or opinions don’t matter unless attached to her sexuality, and he, in turn, may feel like his desirability has nothing to do with his value to her as a human. Without his wallet, he isn’t good enough to be found desirable to his own wife, and that’s obviously a recipe for disaster. If one partner doesn’t eventually leave the relationship, it’s likely one (or both) of them will find an outsider whose sex and affection—or respect and partnership—comes without a price tag…sexual or monetary.
The good news is that I think this is a pretty rare occurrence. My guess would be it’s more common that the couple has gotten themselves into a bad cycle of isolation and poor communication and are making repeated bad choices that may feel like one is withholding. Regardless, the model for communication I outlined above would still be really helpful.
♦◊♦
While no one ever has the right to demand sex from someone, the person whose libido is lower isn’t automatically granted absolution from the problems in the relationship. His or her responsibility isn’t to have sex when they don’t want to, but rather to solve the problems at the root level to the degree that they can. These solutions are as varied as the issues that cause the libido disparity to start with, but a good place for most people to start is with a visit to a doctor for a general check-up to see if there is a hormone imbalance (yes, men too!). Other ideas are adding at least 20 minutes of exercise into the day 5 times per week, going off the birth control pill (use a back up method though, folks!), seeing an acupuncturist/herbalist, seeing a therapist alone or together, doing yoga, looking at some sort of visual stimulation like empowering pornography or even just hot black and white photos (Tumblr is a great place to start), or reading a sexy book.
The partner with the lower libido also may need to step outside of his or her self-implemented sweat pants-straitjacket and engage in whatever form of pleasuring that both partners feel comfortable with. Some ideas for women may be to start with just kissing his neck while he pleasures himself, or telling him a dirty story while he does it. If even that is too much, reach out for some comforting non-sexual affection and offer your partner some verbal reassurance such as, “I know it’s hard that my libido is so low right now, but I want you to know that I do find you so attractive, and I’m so glad you’re my husband (or wife). I love you so much.” Just hearing those words, coupled with affectionate touch, can go a long way.
The partner with the higher sex drive will need to understand and respect that these efforts are being made, and should take some comfort in them. The efforts do matter, even if healing the sexual rift may require a bit of time and patience. The partner with the lower libido, in turn, needs to understand that there can be fallout from a long period of unmet sexual needs, and try to be understanding that the other person may need to self-pleasure more or even use pornography. We hear a lot about women being uncomfortable with their husbands using pornography, but it is something that should be discussed. Pornography spans a wide range of definitions, from sexy art photography all the way to hardcore fetish porn. The couple, together, needs to discuss what boundaries to draw, just as they discuss boundaries with sex. If both partners are comfortable with it, they should watch some porn together in order to ease the conversation. It may even ignite a little spark!
Either way, both partners should do their very best to compromise with one another in a time when one partner doesn’t feel like having sex. After all, you love each other and you want it to work out. Pressure, anger, resentment and manipulation will only cause you to be further apart.
Also read: Is Marriage Obsolete? by Lisa Levey
Read more sex and relationship advice from the author on She Said He Said
Photo courtesy of Flickr/Alyssa L. Miller
What a goofy broad this author is: suggesting that the the husband “pleasure himself” while the low-libido wife kisses his neck or tells dirty stories. I’ll just go score some tight young tail until her libido gets up to speed. Fire away my little masturbators.
I have a partner who would be comfortable with me having sex with other people. However, even if I do that, I want sex with her. In order to feel over and open and connected, I need to make over with the person I love. I don’t need another friend. It’s not just about having enough sex, it’s about having physical intimacy with *her* specifically and how horrible it feels to not be desired or wanted by her.
This all good and fine, except when you’re the woman with a very active libido and your partner, who has almost no sex drive, is practically rationing sex. What then?
Good points. We do worship sex. To extremes that really diminish a lot of other important relationship elements. And we do vilify the one with the low libido a lot. I know men and women that have been made to feel worthless because their libido is lower than their partners. I know a majority of people who say their partner feels entitled to sex and specific frequency and style. And very few that actually accept their partners different drive as is. Most insist there is an imbalance causing it and few can realize different strokes different folks, we are all… Read more »
Some great links in this post! Something you haven’t touched on is the difference in libido acceding to age. I am in a relationship with a man 10 years older than me (he’s 37). He says that as he has aged his libido has dropped. He can now only orgasm once a day, rare occasions he can go twice. He says that the lady doesn’t really make a difference to this performance. I am 27 and I have a high libido. I am ‘on’ all the time. I never say no and he sometimes says no. I have found now… Read more »
I’ve been in a sexless marriage for over 20 years. I had trouble getting aroused by my wife from the beginning. But then again I found I would lose sexual desire for all the women I dated before I got married too. I simply needed the excitement of being with a new partner in order to get aroused enough to perform. My wife agreed to marry me if I promised to seek Sex Therapy after the wedding which I did. I went to a number of therapists over the next 3 years but none could help. They said that due… Read more »
@ wakemenow: I must take issue with your point that men and women evolved separately. The reality seems to be that the two brains of men and women evolved in relationship to one another not in isolation. In this way, the masculine and feminine define each other. I think we can see plenty of evidence of this in society.(ies) Often what this means is men have a expectation that women( the feminine) will be good at the things he is not and vice versa. So, what we perceive as the masculine or the feminine to be is usually in response… Read more »
@ogwriter: Hmm. What I meant was refer to our evolutionary past that men and women have evolved to want to different things in a partner in terms of our humans’ historical needs. I am going on what professor Robert Sapolsky teaches in his lectures and also what seems evident when examining differences between the sexes. But that is in agreement with your statement that we evolved in relation to one another, not in isolation, and I apologize if that wasn’t made clear enough the first go-round. No one exists in a vacuum, and I’d never assume as much. Furthermore, the… Read more »
Sexual traits as they’re traditionally thought of ARE NOT exclusive to one sex or the other, I meant to say. I will become better at proof-reading on here eventually. The beer makes me lazy, that too is true. Ha
@wakemenow: Well, my typos are worse than yours.You are missed ( by me anyway) when you are on self imposed hiatus. ;m) Your opinions are always so well thought out and equally welcome. I think you are fascinating and would like very much if my son’s could know a woman like you someday. My eldest son just turned 26 today. I certainly understand your take on the Democrats and the cynicism has been well earned. My last word on the crazies is this;You have figured out what many women much younger than you have not—own it and lets move on,… Read more »
@ogwriter: That anyone can see my grandfather as “privileged” is something that burned me to the core about feminism. He had a rough life, particularly due to abuse experienced at the hands of his mother, stepmother, and father, made to basically exist as their slave. It’s s sad story. But he did then turn that anger and pain onto innocent people who were trying to help him. And there goes the human melodrama… I would perhaps responded sooner had I received these emails. Didn’t see your comment until now. The body issue complex is weird, and I too see that… Read more »
One woman (cm) wrote above: I do not consider giving and receiving love as mercenary act or quid pro quo exchange. Each day it’s a choice. Women feel loved through acts of attention and are turned on by it. Men feel loved through acts of sex. When a man gives of himself and attends to my well-being, he shares a part of himself with me and he adds long-term value to my life. I will remember it forever. Sure, relations are all about sharing and caring, being there and helping each other. Yet, what stands out to me as a… Read more »
FlyingKal: You do make a good point, but look at it this way. Lets look at the model where a man gets sex first, and then shows attention and care for his partner second. She can have sex with him, but it won’t be good sex. Most men want enthusiastic sex where the partner is truly enjoying herself (that’s probably why you get so much crazy exaggerated moaning in p0rn). But see, if my partner doesn’t make me feel beautiful, loved (in a serious relationship), and special, I’m not going to have as great of a time with the sex,… Read more »
I disagree, Aya. I know many women need to feel sexy and special to have good sex, but its not necessary need serious relationship. It just needs a man who want to make his partner satisfied, that’s it. Even if he had not any feeling for her( and she had not any feeling for him ) , if he truly want to enjoy sex and want her partner to enjoy sex, with basic attractive physique ( not necessary god like chiseled body, just not repulsive ) and some confidence, even one night stand with complete strangers ( not necessary super… Read more »
I never said that they needed a serious relationship. I was simply stating that within one, love is important. What I’m saying is that a lot of women need some context, and even outside a serious relationship (at least for me)–trust and feeling attractive to the guy are of upmost importance. Physique isn’t really that important to me. I orgasm better with a guy who has that ‘spark’ with me, regardless of his technique and body, because I know how to communicate what I want. And emotional connection doesn’t always mean serious or love–it often just means some sort of… Read more »
Well lets agree that every women is just different. For you maybe phsyique is not important , but I have met some girls who think otherwise ( and had some casual sex with them ). Again my sex is not lets bang some women there but more to have good times together. And I said there’s no need for emotional connection doesn’t mean there’s no context and chemistry at all. Well its hard to explain. Its like we are both attracted to each other, but its not love ( because its just casual sex ), and its not really emotional… Read more »
@John Gottman: Orgasm itself isn’t the whole picture. It’s difficult for me to find the right words here, but I know men tend to place a premium on “getting the woman off” as if that is the end goal. whereas for women it isn’t necessarily. I’ve orgasmed with people I wasn’t even attracted to and didn’t consider particular enjoyable sex to where I’d care to repeat it. That’s just how it goes sometimes. Physicality. But that has little to do with long-term commitments and sex. I do agree with Aya that feeling secure and appreciated are huge turn-ons. Can’t explain… Read more »
I agree with all of you said wakemenow, what I dont agree is if you ( and Aya ) said all of those criteria only exclusive to women sexuality. What I trying to say is women sexuality and men sexuality is not really different. Speaking of this : “Can’t explain why, blame it on biology, but it’s a reality. Can a woman enjoy sex repeatedly with a man she’s purely physical with and not dating? Yes, but for me personally I’d eventually get aggravated and walk on. That missing component becomes too much to live without, at least in my… Read more »
Aya, thanks for your answer.
The thing is, I’m not asking for a model where a man gets sex first, and then shows attention and care for his partner second, every single time. Does it have to be binary? Can’t she show him that she loves him, just like that, without him “jumping through the hoops”, at least once in a while??
(If you know the sex was good and he gave you all the attention you wanted the last time?)
I guess I’m a bit confused on the jumping through hoops thing. I don’t believe that making your partner feel appreciated, attractive, and special is jumping through hoops. I would want to do that for my partner/partners regardless of sex. And I don’t know too many women who demand diamonds and roses and crazy stuff in exchange for sex. I certainly never have. I do believe that if the woman is lower libido, she has the responsibility to ask herself ‘why?’ Am I not attracted to my partner? Is it a hormonal issue? Is there something that he’s doing/not doing… Read more »
Looking at other women to some degree isn’t controllable, I’ve never seen anyone succesfully ever stop noticing other people. You can stop staring of course but I notice women all the time for about a second before my brain really catches on, like magnets for the eyes. I also notice beautiful skies, cars, wildlife, all kinds of stuff. Any movement and my eye naturally jumps to notice and taht happens outside of my control. When I do notice I am looking at someone I usually stop straight away as I don’t wanna make em feel uncomfy but it’s pretty damn… Read more »
@Archy: Ya know, I wonder about this too. Because I have a tendency to get spellbound by attractive women too (though not attractive men, oddly enough, never really have). A lot of women take offense to men noticing other women, and I have mixed feelings about it. Like you stated, men who turn and stare at another woman bother me. Men who don’t even attempt to not check out attractive other women bother me. But just noticing people doesn’t really, because I too am drawn to attractive women and can’t seem to help it. Don’t want a lesbian relationship with… Read more »
@Aya: Thanks again 🙂 Yeah, I’m also confused about the jumping through the hoops thing. It’s just that whatever I do never seems to be good enough. And I am not doing ANY of those things (among other things) that you say a partner shouldn’t do. The thing is, I don’t know whether anyone really demands diamonds and roses, etc, either. Because… all there is, is talk. But no communication, if you know what I mean. Noone ever told me that the sex was bad, or that the hormones were low, that there was someting I did or didn’t do.… Read more »
One woman (cm) wrote above: I do not consider giving and receiving love as mercenary act or quid pro quo exchange. Each day it’s a choice. Women feel loved through acts of attention and are turned on by it. Men feel loved through acts of sex. When a man gives of himself and attends to my well-being, he shares a part of himself with me and he adds long-term value to my life. I will remember it forever. Sure, relations are all about sharing and caring, being there and helping each other. Yet, what stands out to me as a… Read more »
@wakemenow: Feminism, even though you are not a feminist, must be addressed in any discussion of how to fix things between men and women. For instance, this presidential election season, which was supposed to be about jobs, was purposely framed by a feminists agenda, The War On Women”. We have, for all intents and purposes, a feminists president who has ignored some legislation aimed at helping men and boys. The effects of feminism on culture and on men are persistent and enduring. On crazy. I am sure that some men can be( other-directed( hate that term), however, you and Sarah… Read more »
@ogwriter: I’m sorry if you find my attitude as “double-sided,” I can only speak from my own perspective. First off, in my last post to you I was trying to say that it helps me to learn from you how feminism impacted you earlier on and way back when, because I have been on this planet for a shorter period of time and can only speak from the perspective of someone born in the early 1980s, reading about the second-wave of feminism before my time. Didn’t affect me the way it affected you, but then again, it came to permeate… Read more »
My typos were atrocious. Further apologies. Didn’t proof-read obviously.
Thank you, wakemenow, for your brilliantly articulated comments. I too have been in the boat where I’ve been denied sex by someone who truly loves, adores, worships me, and finds me attractive. Regardless of all that, being denied sex over and over can get really frustrating and even insulting. At some point, you just put the ball in his hands and stop initiating. When I was in my earlier 20s, I was on the other side of it. I lost my sex drive with a partner because he made me feel insecure, I lost a lot of weight due to… Read more »
“Many women don’t understand why a man *isn’t* emotional sometimes. Sometimes I truly can’t control my passions and my feelings. I do try to change, but I’m an emotional, passionate, hormonal woman and I’m upfront about that in my relationships and I’m upfront on how to react with me (if I’m pms-ing, don’t take every little thing I say as logical and to heart). I like throwing caution and logic to the wind sometimes.” Word of warning, sometimes when some women get into these emotional time periods they will rant about what he hasn’t done and use terms like “You… Read more »
@Archy: Your comment here is excellent and you raise a VERY important point. This is something I struggle with and have been working on for several years now, though sometimes I fuck up and say some shit that is wrong, that is hurtful, and that is not okay. Words can never be taken back. They can wound on a level that will last a lifetime, that is true. And I aim to always keep that in mind, often as I have to repeat it to myself. I have a sharp tongue on me which I attribute as inherited from my… Read more »
“I’ve been drinking a little tonight already and will apologize for running on.” It’s all good. I’ve been hit before, and I’ve been had someone use a silver tongue on me and tbh I think the silver tongue hurt more. My insecurity n anxiety disorder is largely from actions such as verbal abuse, being outcasted by peers, made to feel ugly. The times I’ve had a fight I’ve actually become friends with some of them after, bruises heal but those words don’t automatically heal. Of course severe physical violence does a heap of damage but sometimes I’d rather be slapped… Read more »
@Archy: Took a catnap and am back sipping tea in the insomniac hours of the morning. I hear what you’re saying there about hitting versus harsh words. Living in a society that discourages all forms of physical “violence” (as even slapping is routinely referred to as) can make it seem that speaking is always the more civilized approach. It can be, but not always. I witness men duking it out and returning to friendship on down the line, and I admit to being a bit envious at times that male interaction with one another provides this outlet for hostilities and… Read more »
I’ve always thought that oversized puffy boxing gloves designed to have little impact as they spread the load would be great for people to work out there differences. Hit each other n exhaust your energy without being able to cause damage as the load spreads over a wide area, it’d be like pillow fights using very light pillows. Maybe one day VR games could do it, maybe add in a slight shock so each could hit each other, feel a bit of pain then get the fuck over it. Hell I’d do that shit for fun.
@Aya: Thanks for the nice comment. 🙂 It did help reading what you wrote, because I too am a passionate woman who’s become increasingly hormonal unfortunately since getting off bc pills. May have always been hormonal, but now it’s definitely more of a challenge to manage. Overall though, what never changes is being passionate and curious. And that alone can make relating with others a bit tricky especially when those passions are geared toward inquiries that are non-mainstream. And I love my passion and feel it’s one of my greatest gifts, despite how fiery it tends to make me when… Read more »
ogwriter, I haven’t read anything you’ve written other than this comment, but straight out I have to say your claim that feminism is to blame for ANYTHING in relation to relationships between women and men is absolute rubbish. (If it matters to you, I’m a man, married 22 years with children.) Your comment that you stay away from feminist blogs etc is telling. Can I be so bold as to suggest you go BACK to said feminist blogs, and take your medicine. If you are offended, affronted, insulted or enraged by things you read there (inasmuch as all feminist blogs… Read more »
He believes the correlation/causation thing so blindly that I don’t believe we can do something about it. Did Feminism help change many aspects of society, womanhood and female/male relationships? Of course. Most good things, maybe some things got kinda twisted as well. Just like any other movement in society. But now to say anything bad is only because feminism is the most illogical approach one can make. Do you know aaaallll the good things we accomplished in the last 40 years or so as well? Well, if you are going that way, @ogwriter, better give Feminism their due credit as… Read more »
@OW The idea of other directedness seems more salient now than in the fifties, the time mentioned in The Lonely Crowd. We do have more feminism now, but it seems to have been martialed in support of very traditional ways of women constructing their culture. So it’s fairly sex negative, and it really seems to reinforce very traditional ways of women marrying up, cirtiquing men, using old school femine wiles, etc. Surprisingly women seem even worse at being other directed, the condition Riesman critiqued. In the 1960s-70s, this seemed to go away for a while. My wife, like me ex-counterculture,… Read more »
@ Hank: The conditions you speak of, it seems likely, that most men have experienced this otherdirectedness. This reference is so obscure that spell check doesn’t even recognize what chance does the average Joe have of dealing with it. There is like doubt in my mind that this female duality of behavior is at least partially responsible for why men consistently feel women are manipulative, emotionally erratic, overly sensitive etc. Growing up it was common to hear, in response to oft times sweeping changes in mood and desire from women, “It’s a woman’s pleasure to change her mind.” The meaning… Read more »
@ wakemenow: I ‘d like to weigh in on the question you posed to Jules. One thing that comes to mind is the issue of the struggles of men not being heard or felt by the community. As a man, why would I engage in a process of change, which involves being viewed as an emotional equal to women, if I am viewed as not as important.? That must change first. As you said, this is not about legislation, though I’m sure their are a few issues which need to be hashed out between men and women. This is about… Read more »
Jules,
OCD is obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. I think many women have this as a defense against body feelings, especially sexual ones. It also facilitates working in the professions. MPD is multiple personality disorder. We all have disparate ego-states, but some people almost cannot remember their thoughts and feelings if they’re in an opposite ego state. Not remembering one’s sexual feelings is common for certain types of women, because they’ve had the hell scared out of them on this issue in the past. Goyische equals non-Jewish.
Women have commented here on the intense other directedness women experience. That’s why women are so afraid of being slut called by other women. It splits their consciousness. My theory is that for women who like porn, the porn is a permission giving. They can actually see other women having sex and appearing to like it. The split onsciousness is confirmed by women who become aroused by sexual stimuli and aren’t aware of it. Saxon’s Sex at Dusk is weak on this point.
@Hank: The other-directedness you speak of was discussed in a sociological text titled “The Lonely Crowd” by David Riesman (a book in my personal collection). But in the book he doesn’t refer to it as a specifically female-centered phenomenon but rather a general societal shift in attitudes. At least I assume that was what you’re referencing. Putting that out there in case others want to look for a used copy and see what the author had to say on the matter.
@Hank Vandenburgh: Well, they may say that this malady is not gender specific but that hasn’t been my experience. Dealing with a woman who has split consciousness around her own sexual desires( I have dealt with that before just recently, got burned badly) is asking to be with someone who could fcck your best friend and not “know” it. I dated a woman(a feminist) who used to have sex parties during the 70’s. She would brag about how many sex partners she had and talk about how much fun she had and about how no man ever refused her advances.… Read more »
@Hank..
Thank you. Now I understand.
Very interesting.
I always ask myself: Why do women like to pretend? Perhaps this shed some light on that question.
On Withholding Sex: What I’ve noticed is women having a bifurcated consciousness around sexuality. So we get, and this is true of one of my old (OCD) girlfriends (actually two – both midwestern protestants) a very arousable body (and occasionally consciousness) accompnied by later disavowals of arousal. Empirical studies have confirmed this almost MPD reaction in many women who get excited, then disavow it consciously. Where you usually don’t see this is with Jewish women (as a child, their genitals get constellated – as Jungians would say.) “Oh what a cute liittle knish,” meaning vulva. Rich women from afflent families… Read more »
@Hank…
What is:
1) OCD?
2) MPD?
3) goyishe?
Thanks.
But, I just do not know what the bifurcated consciousness is that you are speaking? Also, what is this “other directedness whne it comes to other women.?”
Sorry to be a pest. I enjoy your contributions. I just cannot seem to make sense of this one.
@ogwriter: Can’t find your last comment in the thread, but will respond from what was received via email. We’re apparently still speaking over one another’s shoulders. I wasn’t implying that because we women are different that this absolves us of any responsibility, and I don’t understand why you continue returning to that with me, especially when I’ve been very upfront on here about my own wrongdoings and have been actively striving toward doing better and being better for several years now. It’s an individual pursuit necessary for any of us aiming for better in this life. Nothing kumbaya about it.… Read more »
Many doctors won’t give a vasectomy unless you’ve had kids though?
Avoiding marriage will get you a whole host of women complaining about men not taking a commitment, wouldn’t it be better to change laws, etc to bring full equality to the genders?
I am a man but not fed up with women. Seeing others talk about marriage n kids though is turning me off to the idea :S but I’m sure one day I’ll bite the bullet n have kids.
@Archy… “Avoiding marriage will get you a whole host of women complaining about men not taking a commitment, wouldn’t it be better to change laws, etc to bring full equality to the genders?” So what Archy?! Women will complain about men regardless. What is important Archy is to protect your own emotional, mental, and psychological well being. Yes, I am a man who is pretty much fed and disgusted by the behavior of a lot of women. Hence, I do not care for any kind of “committed” relationship with them. Instead of arguing and fighting with women, I have simply… Read more »
@Archy: One man I knew about my own age who had no children did undergo a vasectomy. There are doctors who will perform this procedure regardless, and besides, it’s not as if doctors go out of their way to verify whatever you tell them there is true or not. I took for granted that the struggle for bringing about just changes to the law will continue. Avoiding having kids or getting married is just one way to protect one’s interests at this time. Plus it could alleviate a bunch of the stress people are experiencing, though of course that says… Read more »
@wakemenow: I get the kumbaya, no one is perfect spirit of your points.But that doesn’t address my points, it only obscures them. For me it is simple. Said woman gets weird. Said woman knows from time to time that she gets well, weird and so does her partner. Said woman knows that her partner knows she gets weird. Said man is the man of her dreams, the man she wants to be in a lifelong monogamous, serious, committed, profoundly connected relationship with. Said man would, if it were necessary, drink said woman’s dirty bath water through a crazee straw if… Read more »
Won’t try to find the comment. Sexual addiction is quite real. Usually psychologists and psychiatrists are the last to know about anything useful. Guys stay up all night stroking it, or spend all their and the family’s money on prostitutes. Read Cairnes. He can be preachy, but is right on about this.
Just watch Californication, that entire show is about sexual addiction.
I am a recovering sex addict, who’s wife of 20yrs remained in a loving re~committed monogomous relationship. She’s now pre menepausal and sex is very infrequent. Sex had to become optional for me. As a CSA survivor sex outside my marraige was used to fill a hole in my soul, though it never worked. Who, where, what I climaxed to was insignificant, only the ritual of acting out mattered. In forced abstinence, due to her needing to mourn the death of her married ideal, and in agreed upon abstinance, where we relearned all other forms of true intimacy, we were… Read more »
@ur loved… First, what is a “CSA survivor?” It never cease to amaze me how those who have sexed it up now want to tell other folks about “true intimacy.” Please. Spare me. Btw, there is no such thing as a sex addict. Only dysfunctional sexual behavior. Nor is “sex addiction” recognized by the American Psychological Association as a mental disorder. As for worshiping our Creator, I do that outside of sex. I am of the Protestant faith. No where in the Bible is there anything about sex being used to worship God. I guess King Solomon and his several… Read more »
Sometimes, though, the abstinence thing goes way too far, or the co-dependent wife subjects the addict to gross domination. That last can be really evil, and I saw it several times when I worked in addiction treatment in the 80s. One wife went to open-SA meetings with her husband. She was from hades.
CSA = Child sexual abuse.
My wife prefers KY to any of the “runnier” lubes, like astroglide. And, come to think of it, so do I. At my age, a little more resistance is welcome– a little more frictional drag.
Has anyone here compared Androgel to the new Androforte (AndroMeds.com)? I’m about to give one a go… advice appreciated
@cm: You know your an absolute romantic and it is smalltown charming but… The keys to ,her” libido,as described by you, don’t always unlock the chasity belt. Furthermore, what you mentioned,giving compliments,advice and support is fairly pedestrian romantic behavior that most women wouldn’t recognize as such. I mean, honey can I help with your resume doesn’t scream sex like dinner and dancing. Besides,I think most men,myself included,do the very simple things you listed WITHOUT expecting sex in return.
@Julia Byrd: You know Jules I can see Aya’s point,though I feel uneasy about that.( I’m smiling Aya ) The hardcore truth is, no matter the arrangement chosen,it is taken on faith by the participants that each will honor the contract. So, whether one chooses monogamy or FWB there is probably equal chance one is sharing one’s partner with someone else. The poly life only seems to be a more open way to acknowledge and legitimize otherwise “secret” culturally objectable habits. Considering the prevalence and long history of adult sexual alternatives; swingers,doms,kink and fetishes of all kinds people are quite… Read more »
@ogwriter….
Yes, but the big difference is neither is a connected primary partners. Hence, I do not care about who she screws.
Aya’s view was to have a primary that you shared. This is what I objected to. I simply do not see the point. Hence, my desire to be a surrogate lover as opposed to a primary partner.
Thanks for understanding, ogwriter. 🙂 If you don’t see the point, Jules, then maybe you’re just not a relationship person and never were. That’s perfectly fine, but it could have been part of what caused problems in your relationship. If you saw no benefits from a relationship other than sex, maybe your wife sensed that? You ask what the point is of having a primary partner. It obviously means that you don’t care about much other than sex and sexual exclusivity with women–which isn’t all that there is to a relationship. If your wife lost her libido, I absolutely believe… Read more »
@Aya.. Throughout my adult life I was always a relationship only man. I never did any kind of casual dating prior to marriage. I only dated and slept with the few women I chose whom I thought were worthy of being my wife. My rule was simple: Only date and have sex with women who were worthy of being my wife. Post divorce my view has changed. While I still eschew lots of sex partners and womanizing behavior, I have no desire for any type of relationship other than an FWB arrangement. I am just convinced that committed relationships with… Read more »
On the “cuck” phenomenon. I’m not going to try to find Jules’s post on this. I presented on this once at a sociological meeting. There are probably at least three separate motivations: 1. The male is basically gay. 2. Or, the male is an orgiast (usually a sex addict.) 3. The male gets a testosterone boost from having another man with his woman, and is all over her after– when the other man is finished. Often, other race males are used by white couples to get this additional charge going (the increased phenotypic difference makes for even more of a… Read more »
Many men also like to join while the other man is still with her. Kind of a threesome sometimes, but still with a “cuck” aspect. And that is true, males do feel extremely horny when they see the female they want to fuck be fucked, that happens also in nature all the time.