Shannon Ridgway and Sandra Kim offer a clear guide to understanding and obtaining consent from your partner.
What is consensual sex? Common knowledge states that it’s two adults who willingly agree to engage in sexual activity with each other.
Sounds simple enough, right? Apparently not.
When I googled the term “consensual sex”, I found many definitions of consent, and many definitions of what constituted a lack of consent but hardly anything on the phrase itself.
This lack of clear definition seems to align with fact that some people still get it confused and end up raping someone without consciously intending to. Clearly many people intentionally rape but there are some who don’t and wouldn’t if they had known it was rape.
So we need to teach both men and women that it’s still rape – intentional or not. And hopefully we can prevent a portion of sexual assault from happening.
What Consensual Sex Isn’t
There an unfortunate belief that still lingers in our society — and even upheld by some laws in certain instances — that says unless the other person verbally says no or physically displays acts of resistance (i.e. “fighting back”), then the sex was consensual.
Even though many women freeze when being sexually violated, which is as strong a defense mechanism as flight or fight.
So “yes” has come to mean “if the other person doesn’t say no (violently or screaming), it’s okay”. The problem with this definition is that it reduces the power of the second person involved.
If one person is ready to go and the other person is frozen in fear and/or says “no” in a small voice, it’s still rape.
So What Is Consensual Sex, Really?
It’s time to rediscover the true meaning of consensual sex.
Consensual sex is when:
- Both parties agree to have sex (ideally verbally but at least physically)
- Both parties show excitement and willingness to have sex.
How to know it’s consensual:
- Look for visual clues – Does the other person seem excited or happy? Are they smiling? Or do they seem scared or unsure?
- Check body language – Is the other person seem to be in a positive mood or have high-energy? Or do they seem tense and uncomfortable?
- See if they’re engaged in the sexual act – Is the other person proactively kissing or touching you? Or are they still and only move if you ask them to?
And lastly and most importantly,…
- Just ASK and watch for if the answer is said with fear or joy. If it’s a “yes” said in a small or fearful voice, wait before progressing and find out what’s going on. It may be shyness or it may be fear – don’t you want to find out which one it is?
Some Common Examples of What We Sometimes Think Is Consensual and Is Actually Rape
Now that we are clear on what consensual sex is, what isn’tit? Consensual sex isNOT:
1. Marital sex where one person doesn’t want to have sex
Yes, wives do not “owe” their husbands sex merely because they’re married. They too should have sex when they actually want to have sex.
This misconception has deep roots in sexist thinking that says women are the property of men and once bound by marital contract, give up their right to consent to sexual activity.
Because this was strongly believed (and thankfully less so now), it wasn’t until1993(!) that there were laws in every US state and the District of Columbia that acknowledged marital rape was a crime.
2. Drunken or intoxicated sex where one person is incapacitated or unconscious and cannot consent
People often think that when we mix of alcohol/drugs and sex, it’s hard to tell when there’s consent.
So let’s make it clear – just because someone’s drunk doesn’t mean they’ve given consent. They’re just drunk. It has absolutely nothing to do with consent.
It just means it’s easier for someone to have sex with them because they’re less able to know what’s going on – ie easier to rape them.
So if you can’t tell if they actually want to have sex because they’re unconscious, semi-unconscious, or simply too intoxicated to communicate effectively, don’t have sex with them.
It’s really that simple.
And yes, alcohol and drugs can lead to some people feeling less sexually inhibited and more likely to engage in sexual activity. The key is to make sure they can still communicate clearly and express their desire to have sex and you get that confirmation first before having sex.
3. Sex when the other person says “no” but because they’ve had consensual sex before or has been labeled a “slut”, their “no” is discounted
Because apparently if someone agrees to have sex 100 times and decides they don’t want to the 101st time, it doesn’t count.
Really? How ridiculous of an argument is that? A person has the right to decline sex whenever they want, with whomever they want, including if they’ve already had sex with them before.
Remember how marital rape is a crime? Married couples have tons of sex and it’s still rape if one person is forced to have sex at any point.
So unless you think your father should be allowed to rape your mother because they had sex to make you, don’t force your partner to have sex when they don’t want to.
4. Sex with a minor aka statutory rape
Yes, the term “rape” is there for a reason. Statutory rape means sex with a person under the legal age of consent or sex with a physically or mentally incapacitated adult. The young and the incapacitated in our society are awarded special protection under the law, because they cannot give consent in the same way adults can.
So this means that even if they give consent– verbally or otherwise– it is not true consent, and the sexual act will be considered an act of rape. This is true for both girls and boys. If a younger boy has sex with an older woman, that too is considered statutory rape despite popular belief.
This is also true if your purchase commercial sex from a minor. Just because the minor (female, male, trans*) is on the streets doesn’t change their age. And whenthe average age of entry into prostitution is 13 years old, the chance you’re having sex with a minor is high. So in addition to committing the crime of solicitation, you’re also committing statutory rape and personally benefiting from and actively supporting human trafficking.
5. Sex when one party withdraws consent mid-way after having initially given consent
This is one that seems to get the most heat because it’s not explicitly defined in some states as actual rape and some people feel entitled to be able to “finish” regardless of how the other person feels.
However, despite what the actual laws on the books state, the amount of victim-blaming that occurs, the misplaced sense of entitlement, or the many reasons for withdrawing consent (ranging from boredom, being in pain, to downright abuse) the fact remains – withdrawing consent means saying “no”.
And it still counts even after they give an initial “yes”.
Think about it – Say you decided to eat ice cream but then decided to not finish the bowl because you felt sick. If someone forced or pressured you into finishing it, don’t you think that would be a violation too?
So remember ignoring their “no” is a violation of a person’s autonomy and body and subsequently equals rape.
The bottom line between consensual sex and rape is this – both parties should actively want to have sex and express their willingness to participate to each other.
If this doesn’t happen but sex does, then it’s rape. Because as famed feminist author Jessica Valenti says – only yes truly means yes.
And if you feel like this isn’t important to consider when having sex, remember that it doesn’t matter if you didn’t “intend” to rape someone.
The other person still feels raped and will have to deal with the trauma for maybe the rest of their lives. And you may be charged with sexual assault.
So is this something you really don’t want to be clear on?
Originally appeared at Everyday Feminism
Read more from Everyday Feminism:
7 Types of Serious Abuse We Don’t Take Seriously
Why Saying “Men Are Slaves to Their Sex Drive” is Insulting to Men
Shannon Ridgway is a Contributing Writer to Everyday Feminism from the great flyover state of South Dakota (the one with the monument of presidential heads). In her free time, Shannon enjoys reading, writing, jamming out to ’80s music and Zumba, and she will go to great lengths to find the perfect enchilada. Follow her on Twitter @sridgway1980.
Sandra Kim is the Founder & Editor of Everyday Feminism. She brings together her personal and professional experience with trauma, personal transformation, and social change and gives it all a feminist twist. Follow her @SandraSKim.
Photo: Flickr/erix!
Also remember that “enthusiastic consent” (can’t even describe how much I dislike this term) is only good coming from women. A man who shows “enthusiastic consent” of course will be a total turn off and will probably be shamed and accused of acting like he’s an over excited virgin.
Wait a second- over on the other page https://goodmenproject.com/sex-relationships/five-sex-tips-for-men-about-women/comment-page-1/#comment-457448
A little manipulation/seduction of the wifey is OK…
I’m so confused…
Did a part of this really veer off into discussion of the holocaust? Time to uncheck this article on the keep me updated list.
I’m going to hit YouTube and watch Turn Wright Videos- that will make me a better man- learn a clear path along the decision tree and how to check and recheck tolerances. http://youtu.be/lTULd2sgEPo
Here’s my problem with it: If you interpret the titular premise of the article very literally, then any sex that lacks the specific word “yes” doesn’t count as consent. It says *only* “yes” means yes. Not body language, not “Mmm-hmmm”, not “Oooh, yeah”, not opening ones legs and guiding an erect penis into her– it has to be the word “yes”. Such a strictly literal interpretation is absurd, and I’m guessing even the author would agree that an enthusiastic “Okay!” or “Let’s do it!”, or even familiar physical cues between known partners can and do constitute consent, possibly even more… Read more »
What should this be called? “In the item about withdrawing consent after initially consenting, it sounds pretty reasonable at first, but again, it’s so black-and-white that it would make a rapist of a man who in the middle of climaxing was told, “Stop!” during an otherwise completely consensual encounter? Really? A man who can’t interrupt an orgasm when everything to that point has been consensual would be a rapist? I don’t think so.” At what point isn’t it rape or is it rape? 5 minutes before an orgasm? 1 minute? 10 minutes? If she is hurting? Scared? If she realized… Read more »
And I”m not being snarky or sarcastic. I’m frustrated is all. For anyone, male or female, who winds up in a really horrid kind of situation and for people who don’t mean it to happen.
Maybe it should be called, regretable but not rape and not be assigned a spot in the spectrum of criminality. Unless every other selfish, boorish or callous person will also be charged with a felony.
Or will a guy who realizes he ought to stop and stops but not soon enough for her liking also be charged? Is realizing it 5 seconds too late rape? A minute too late? None of this seems to fall into beyond a reasonable doubt territory. Since when does rapist = not a mind reader?
That’s what I’m asking. And I’m asking for men who might have found themselves in the regrettable situation where a lover (male or female) didn’t respect their signals, words or needs as well. Most of those examples won’t make it to the police station, but they still cause damage.
Julie, I very explicitly gave the example of a man in the middle of climaxing, because that, to me, would be an absurd extreme which this article would still consider rape. For you to ask me about 10, 5, or 1 minute(s) before is to do exactly what irritates me about these discussions, which is to pretend that it’s all the same, and it’s all rape. It’s not. In the middle of climaxing, for a man (and I’d wager for a woman, too) there does not exist the same mental and physical capacity to judge the situation and alter course… Read more »
Or let me ask another way. Let’s say the man is going along consensually, notices the woman in the apparent throes of an orgasm, and says, “Stop! Stop your orgasm right now!” If she can’t, then whether or not he also pulled out when announcing her orgasm wasn’t okay with him, would you say she raped him since he’s changing his mind? If not, then how is a man more or a rapist for a physiological reflex that at that moment, preceded by full consent, he has no control over?
I think some of your response to this is colored by some bad “let me finish” experiences you’ve shared, and those experiences aren’t ambiguous to me. Even if they didn’t reach the rape threshold, they were at least sexual assault, IMO (i.e. still criminal even if there was no penetration.) I’m arguing that there’s a significan difference between “let me finish” when there’s still a capacity to stop, and a first “Stop” that literally comes after orgasm has started. In my college years, I travelled out of town one weekend to attend a dance with a girl (at her college)… Read more »
This seems pedantic to me in both directions. If anyone is in the middle of anything, no I’m not suggesting that people try to stop some kind of physical process like stopping a sneeze.
I also don’t believe that redefining something to death helps it. Women’s orgasms, just so you know, can’t be stopped mid climax either, which is why I brought up the reverse situation. That’s all ridiculous. And yes, there are circumstances where the orgasm is say 1-3 minutes away and being asked to lay there while someone is focused solely on getting their even with your discomfort isn’t a good sexual relationship, it’s callous at best and depending on circumstances as you said, sexual assault. What’s getting lost in all this…whatever it is…is the idea that good sex is connected sex,… Read more »
There is a fear that redefining rape may go too far, I myself am starting to feel uneasy with how much grey area there is for example. A big issue I have with it all is relying so heavily on body language vs verbal communication. We should be doing EVERYTHING we can to teach people to be confident enough to speak up, it sickens n saddens me that there are people who are afraid and have sex when they don’t want to because they feel fear that the other will hurt them, does this happen without prior abusive behaviour? Can… Read more »
I don’t know if it’s me, or if it’s how I read things in a descriptive rather than prescriptive way (even lists)-perhaps Myers Briggs scores (ENFP) has something to do with it but arguments like this (with anyone, not calling you out particularly) feel to me like when I say to my son, “It’s 9:30.” and he says, “No, it’s 9:26.” It makes me crazy. He does it mostly to argue, not because it matters to him. There is more art to consent and sex than science because these are always people we are dealing with. With as many interpretations… Read more »
“If I am paying attention to my partner, doing my due diligence as a human being to another human being the odds are better that mistakes won’t be made. Even so, sometimes mistakes will be made. Given how many rapes don’t ever get reported that indicates to me that a lot of sex that isn’t rape but is bad/messed up and regret sex doesn’t get called or reported rape as well.” Notice that the pedantic questions above are asked in absolute WORRY by men. Being told odds are you won’t accidentally rape but sometimes mistakes happen is FUCKING SCARY because… Read more »
Archy. Women are worried to which is why they write these articles! Because many of us have had the kind of sex where someone didn’t pay attention, take good care, treat us like people, held us down with a minute to go (not in the actual orgasm) just so they could get there (me personally) etc. Do you know how many men after I’ve accused of rape? Zero. Do you know how many trials have come out of my experiences? Zero. If you are being a good human being, paying close attention to your partner and her to you, and… Read more »
The issue that causes me anxiety is that with crimes of sexual nature, especially male on female, mud sticks and I am in a business which requires a very clean reputation when it comes to women so I can’t just ignore those whom think accused = guilty always. I realize there are many who don’t report, and also those who understand mistakes happen but the chances of me being hit by lightning are remote yet I avoid dancing in a thunderstorm. My fear, along with Marcus I think is that we may end up apply the rape term way too… Read more »
There is more art to consent and sex than science because these are always people we are dealing with. I agree. This article stakes out the opposite position saying only “yes” means yes, and describing in black and white terms many things that we may not think are rape, but are, such as #5 where withdrawing consent *at any time* can turn sex into rape. If the author makes any exceptions for it happening during an orgasm already in progress, there’s no hint of that in the article. The gray area I raised was exactly that, not several minutes or… Read more »
This is what I mean by prescriptive vs descriptive. Personally? I hate legal language and hate listening to people pick apart the meaning of one word in a sentence. That’s me personally. Some people love it, that’s how their brains work…I figure they are more likely in the ISTJ quadrant of thinking. Not to bring Star Trek into it, but think…Vulcan vs Betazoid. Two completely different brain types experiencing an article in extremely different ways. Example. Years ago, there was an exercise in workshop I attended and in it we were asked to move to corners of a room based… Read more »
Also, I’ve said all I need to say and you feel free to respond but I’m kind of burnt out
This is what I mean by prescriptive vs descriptive. I find my self more unclear about what those words mean to you than I would have guessed before, but I have given more thought to that very difference than most people. I don’t say that as a brag, but because I have a B.A. in linguistics, and the difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammar is no small thing in linguistics. Many a grammar cop thinks they are describing a core grammatical rule when observing that ending a sentence with a preposition is ungrammatical, and words like “ain’t” aren’t real. Any… Read more »
I’m no linguist so I guess I’m wrong on those counts. I don’t know how to describe what I mean and feel chagrinned for the most part so I’ll just bow out. Thanks though for responding and listening.
I’m pretty much done. I don’t know how to discuss with you what I mean and I’m increasingly frustrated. Regardless, I’m for positive happy healthy change. Perhaps I’m just not as good with words as I usually hope.
Sorry for all the trouble Marcus.
“If it were a man wanting to stop and the woman wanted to keep going cause she was close and she was on top and she wouldn’t let him pull out, what would it be?” Before orgasm you can stop, but during orgasm your body is in UNCONTROLLABLE convulsions which make it quite difficult to move, hell my head usually flies back for some damn reason. Trying to pull out, roll off, stand up or whatever during the 10-15 seconds would be hard, I’d try to do it but it’s not gonna be like a 1 second move. I’d hope… Read more »
It hink it bears noting that “date rape” cases are notoriously hard to prove especially when alcohol is involved. Prosecutors hate these cases and generally won’t file charges unless there is evidence of forcible rape (i.e. the woman is injured) or circumstances or witnesses that corroborate the objective lack of consent. Proving rape where the woman initially consented but changed her mind in the middle of the act will be almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and I suspect any prosecutions premised on such allegations will be exceedingly rare.
Yes, the post isn’t focused on legal proceedings which I expect is because they know that the above is true. What they are after is the social change-that communication with partners and slowing down, listening etc means less mistakes and less intent/impact problems etc.
I’m sorry that’s getting missed.
When I see this feeling expressed (and I’ve seen it many times), I empathize with that place of hurt and injustice that it comes from. I really do. There’s a painful sense of powerlessness it springs from, and I don’t wish that on anyone. At the same time, it seems to me like an inevitable downside to the jurisprudence we have, where there’s a presumption of innocence and burden of proof to convict that is intentionally high. I don’t see how to remedy that without treating rape as a special crime where the normal standards don’t apply. Would it be… Read more »
As an attorney, the changes you suggest would be very problematic if not impossible under U.S. constitutional law. You can’t change the burden of proof or the presumption of innocence without violating the defendant’s right to due process under the 5th amendment. Rape has historically been defined — going back centuries if not millenia — as intentional sexual penetration of a woman by a man without her consent. Concepts of sexual assault have been expanded over the years to include non-penetrative sexual battery as well as sexual assault of men by other men and more recently, sexual assault of men… Read more »
I agree, Sarah. Maybe I was sensing disagreement where there was none (I’m kind of conditioned to expect it in these discussions), but I wasn’t actually suggesting those lower standards for rape convictions. I was trying to say that when I see people bemoan how hard it is to get date rape convictions, I sympathize, but don’t really see what it is they would change to improve that. I don’t see how to make date rape convictions easier without trampling on some Constitutional rights in the process. I’m extremely aware of the gap between what the law considers rape, where… Read more »
I’m with you, I get frustrated by the way rape is often discussed. People use “rape” to mean all kinds of things outside the legal definition of rape which spreads a lot of misinformation. If a person consents to sex because of emotional pressure or whining from a partner, that’s not rape in my book. It’s not even a crime. Enthusiastic consent is a great thing but unenthusiastic consent is still consent. Now, if we are talking from a non-legal perspective about the importance of getting consent and how to communicate with your partner, that’s totally different. But the legal… Read more »
It may not get featured in the sidebar, but this would be my pick for Comment of the Day.
On the flipside the accusation itself can be enough to ostracize the rapist from some communities and cause great harm to ones reputation. So the fear of false accusations can be quite high, even though they are quite rare. I find both false accusations and especially the difficulty of prosecuting legitimate accusations very troubling.
Here is something I always wondered about rape and false rape accusations. We’re always told that rape is rape. Rape does not require force. It’s never the victims fault regardless of what they’ve done or failed to do. There is no need to fight back, etc. All of these things sound good to me and I agree with them. We’re told accusers rarely lie. I think that’s mostly true. Some people say false accusers should not be prosecuted. I disagree with this and actually feel that the penalties are inadequate. Many people believe that rape laws should be changed to… Read more »
So, wait. A few months ago a GMP writer posted an article about a specific circumstance where a friend of hers woke up from being passed out drunk and raped a woman who he had been heavily flirtatious with and hooking up with throughout the night. While the author clearly recognized the act as rape (because the woman was still passed out when he initiated the sex), the author discussed the possibility that the lines between consent and rape had been so blurred that her friend may not have realized that what he was doing was raped. The author (and,… Read more »
Yes we’ll that Royse article had holes you could drive a semi through… I read it and re-read it and couldn’t understand her decision tree. I’m glad to see someone else calling it what is was & pointing out that they passed out, in the article the euphemism was “fell asleep” I don’t recall her being still passed out… Vis this article the timbre is apparent from the beginning Example # 1 puts men, not spouses, in a bad role. I’m guessing one doesn’t get too far writing for blogs with “feminism” suggesting that sometimes a guy isn’t turned on… Read more »
I’ve always believed that there are a TON of rapes that are committed by people who don’t know they’re committing rape.
Some people have misinterpreted two sets of data and use that as a way of saying “all rapists know they’re raping” when it’s just complete bullshit. I think they are well-intentioned but misinformed.
We MUST be talking about consent!!
I have that impression too that many rapes are misunderstandings of consent. I doubt it’d be the majority, but I have a feeling it is significant in number and mostly happens with alcohol. But be careful, you’ll be called a rape-apologist for daring to think the possibility that rape isn’t always done intentionally. It’s not like the crime of punching someone where very very rarely is that consented to, but it’s an act that is done during sex itself which is usually (not always of course) mutually wanted, consenting and that further complicates the issue.
Those people aren’t “misinterpreting” the data. They’re deliberately twisting the data to fit their own agenda. Don’t you think it’s a little odd those people always ‘misinterpret’ things in the way that provides them with the most self righteous anger?
Don’t you think it’s a little odd those people always ‘misinterpret’ things in the way that provides them with the most self righteous anger?
That’s because the people who misinterpret it the other way are the ones we never get to hear or read about.
This is what they call “confirmation bias”, right?
This article claims that our society in general still holds the belief that consent means only the the absence of resistance, and that this problem is even reflected in our laws. I am not convinced that the part about laws is true. I clicked on the article’s link to thinkprogress.com that is supposed to support this claim. Without going into details here in my comment, the linked article contains an update saying that the court case in question was ruled the way it was due to prosecutorial misjudgment – not because the law in Connecticut supported assumption of consent. Thesis… Read more »
Good communication is important, and most people agree with this in full. Here are some additional good tips from my personal experience that help men and women with their communication. If you’re drinking heavily in a manner that impedes your ability to communicate, understand that you’re most likely in a scenario were others are doing exactly the same. If you’re a dude that tends to freeze during sex, for whatever reason, and can’t express your consent easily and freely, it’s probably best that you refrain from having sex till you can manage proper communication. Using the same analogy of ice… Read more »
I would also tell women that an erection does not constitute consent although it might seem to. It might be too much to ask men not to have an erection if they don’t want to have sex as that is an involuntary response. I think that there is not enough conversation on the responsible use of alcohol. We’ll teach people don’t drink and drive, but we won’t teach them to limit drinking so they don’t rape. Many guys have pointed out that some men may have drunk so much that they couldn’t tell that there was no consent. In cases… Read more »
“Married couples have tons of sex…” I think the author needs to do a little more research. Also: “There an unfortunate belief that still lingers in our society — and even upheld by some laws in certain instances — that says unless the other person verbally says no or physically displays acts of resistance (i.e. “fighting back”), then the sex was consensual.” I don’t think that belief and legal precedent is at all unfortunate. I think that’s a reasonable law and a reasonable expectation. Going down the other road… our actions are legal or not based on some other person’s… Read more »
I think this at least points a bit: “And yes, alcohol and drugs can lead to some people feeling less sexually inhibited and more likely to engage in sexual activity. The key is to make sure they can still communicate clearly and express their desire to have sex and you get that confirmation first before having sex.” There is a noticable difference between someone who is so drunk they are incoherent, unable to take care of themselves, can barely walk, etc. Someone like that is obviously too intoxicated to consent. But if they are drunk, but capable of making sense,… Read more »
Intoxication removes consent, is that 1 single milli-litre of alcohol? When exactly does that kick in? I am still on my epic quest to find out if 2 people having 1 drink each are technically raping each other if they have sex. Also a question on the freeze aspect. Could a person who didn’t want to have sex but was scared to disappoint someone have sex with them and show enthusiastic behaviour, masking the fear? All smiles and “faking” it? If so would that still be considered rape? Reason I ask is curiosity of someone faking it if they feel… Read more »
Archy, you are nitpicking. Obviously everyone would agree that 1 mL would not inhibit a person’s ability to make a reasoned decision. This is a huge grey area consent problem, the alcohol issue. I can say, though, that if I were on a date and the person I was with had more than one drink, I would hold off on first sex. That’s just me. Even if the person weren’t impaired, I want sex to be sober and engaged. I also think not having “grey area” consent issues is worth the sacrifice of waiting to have sex. Can you legislate… Read more »
Yeah but I am nitpicking because of the way the law was told to me in Aus. It pretty much got advertised that a woman with ANY alcohol in her system (yes just women, not men) couldn’t consent, hence my utter confusion over it. What I think is logical may not be correct, my confidence in someone have 1-3 drinks being able to consent has been diminished and completely unsure of what a decent person is supposed to do apart from not have sex. I am only interested in consenting sex so I want to know when the consent disappears,… Read more »
That’s not the law in California or most U.S. states. An intoxicated person is legally capable of giving consent to sex. For it to be rape (legally) they have to be so intoxicated that they are pretty much passed out unconscious,
@Joanna Schroeder:
I can say, though, that if I were on a date and the person I was with had more than one drink, I would hold off on first sex. That’s just me. Even if the person weren’t impaired, I want sex to be sober and engaged. I also think not having “grey area” consent issues is worth the sacrifice of waiting to have sex.
Yeah, that’s what most people say, when they are sober. 😉
This is helpful, but I dislike that it pretends away the ambiguity, and imagines “if only men take enough precautions” that they’ll stop being the guilty-until-proven innocent perpetrator of all crimes. I imagine a future is coming, where we’ll all be carrying around video or audio recording devices, so when any conflict occurs, you can go back to the original actual event and evaluate “what happened”, whether post-sex regret that turns into rape accusations, or fights where a drunk woman verbally or physically abuses a passive man until her provocation sends him into the slightest response that turns into assault… Read more »
There you go @Tom- evidently 1/2 the drivers in Russia have dashboard cams because the system is a mess, the bonus will be great meteor footage & maybe, someday, good Sasquatch & ET video.
I have a sinking feeling that even if it ever got to that point where people were somehow videoing their interactions with the opposite sex, so many people would still have different interpretations of the same event… Sort of like that Japanese movie, “Rashomon”, (depending on the point of the view of each character, one might interpret as a consensual act what was really a rape, etc.)…. Check out some of pick up videos by Tyler on YouTube — RSD / RealSocial Dynamics…. He “pulls” a drunk “stunner” from getting into a cab and he brags about the “score”….I think… Read more »
There was a case in Illinois like that. Two or three boys from a wealthy suburb got a girl drunk and had sex with her (Through I feel it was, I won’t use the term rape because they were acquitted). They video taped it. The prosecutors thought that the video tape made it a slam dunk case, but the defense attorney started pointing out things like she’s smiling in this frame, etc. I think part of the problem was she was bombed out of her mind, but she could still move and her body did involuntary things. Just because it’s… Read more »
What is the point in all these rape articles on GMP? Yes, there are men out there who rape women. And there are men out there who read GMP. I would imagine the overlap between the two groups is practically nonexistent. Yet, every few weeks we get yet another “please don’t rape women — no really, we mean it this time” article. In reality, all these articles accomplish is turning off the few relatively masculine men remaining who still return to these pages. Most men — at least, most men of high value — understand intuitively that men are judged… Read more »
First, who’s “crying wolf”? Talking about a serious issue isn’t desensitizing people to it, instead, it normalizes the topic. And rape and consent should be normalized. Rape survivors shouldn’t be so ashamed, they should feel like they aren’t alone. They should feel that there are a LOT of people out there who support them. Articles like these say to them, “You are okay. You were not wrong. You were raped. It’s not your fault.” Articles like this also make the conversation about enthusiastic consent normal so that we can have them with our friends and our children, and feel like… Read more »
We need to talk about the holocaust. Oh yes, because we clearly don’t do enough of that already. I used to be super sensitive about the holocaust a long time ago, but the more I’ve studied the Israel/Palestine conflict and the ways organized Jewry has cynically exploited white gentile holocaust guilt to sanitize Israeli crimes (read “The Holocaust Industry” by Norman Finkelstein), the more I’m growing convinced that the holocaust is too often employed as an ideological weapon, and used to instill guilt in those who have no reason to feel any. When Jews talk about the Nakba (The 1948… Read more »
@ DD “What is the point in all these rape articles on GMP? Yes, there are men out there who rape women. And there are men out there who read GMP. I would imagine the overlap between the two groups is practically nonexistent.” First, the article assumes that people can unintentionally rape as they might not understand what constitutes consent. Yes, very few men here (if any) would knowingly rape someone that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be done unintentionally. I myself take issue with the marital rape portion of the article. Many people consent to sex they don”t want in… Read more »
I’m thinking you meant to say, “partners should NOT have to be stuck in a sexless […] relationship.” Right, so then, divorce? Or perhaps, an open relationship might be an option? Why the hell would the partner who doesn’t want sex have to engage in it? If my partner were to discover that I’d “consented to sex I didn’t want” it certainly wouldn’t please him. He’d be saddened I hadn’t been honest with him. And he’d probably refuse to have sex with me for a while, and never before interrogating me to the point where he was certain I really… Read more »
P.S. Getting to have sex with someone is not a right. It’s an honor. There are many who live happy lives as celibates. I mean, this entitled notion of being stuck in a sexually unsatisfying relationship is bunk. Sure, maybe your partner doesn’t want to have sex with you. I can imagine that might hurt quite a lot. But that’s not something to treat with a selfish, dismissive “well, let’s have sex anyway” solution. Rather, that’s something to have talks about and consider going to counseling for. Maybe you aren’t in love anymore, or one of you hurt the other… Read more »
A woman in France was awarded damages for a sexless marriage, as it was considered (his) duty in marriage to have sex, and he didn’t provide it. Something like 10,000 Euros. He had medical reasons to consider sex painful, so he wasn’t doing it to spite her or anything.
I dont really like the word “entitlement” in this context. Is it entitlement to expect that your spouse do something nice for you on your birthday? Or when you’re sick? Is it entitlement that you expect them to ask you how your day was? I mean I think we need to draw a line between entitlement and reasonable expectations. Now granted each couple should set what those expectations are, but we have a natural urge for sex and while some may be happy celibate, its usually considered apart of a loving, healthy relationship. And this isn’t a gender specific issue… Read more »
“And when the average age of entry into prostitution is 13 years old, the chance you’re having sex with a minor is high.” – this would mean that half of prostitutes start working before they are 13, which seems extremely unlikely. And indeed, following the link, they cite two journal articles, from 1982 and 1985 (30 years old!). One of them was a survey of adolecent prostitution, the other a study of street prostitutes. These are not representative samples; the quote should be “The average age of entry into _underage_ prostitution is 13 years old”. Sexual abuse and forced prostitution… Read more »
Nick, I’m going to forward this info on to the authors. Thanks.
I can’t believe I consented to read another one of these articles!? Or did I? I certainly wasn’t enthusiastic about it. I didn’t think I was enjoying it. Maybe I’m a masochist?
I’ve heard feminists talk about eye rape. Maybe you were thought raped. 🙂
I’m so paranoid about sex that I’m afraid to have it – even when it is verbally consensual – lest it be called rape after the fact. Obviously I have serious trust issues. But unfortunately that is because of the kind of women I have been with. I take responsibility for my flawed mental perceptions of sex, and am trying to heal them. It would help if I didn’t have this voice in my head telling me I’m bad and wrong because I want sex.
Jean, you are GOOD to want sex. That is normal and healthy.
I think the best thing you can do is to just know the woman well before you have sex, talk a lot, and check in with her. You can do it in a sexy way, “how does this feel?” “you have the sexiest neck, I’d love to kiss it” and gauge her reactions.
If you’re thoughtful, which I assume you are, and are conscious about your partner’s participation and enjoyment, you’re going to be fine. Great, even.
Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say “The act of wanting sex is neutral”? People who don’t desire sex, whether at a certain moment, at a certain period in their loves, or ever at all, aren’t bad or unhealthy.
I am paranoid to, I usually let HER do the acts first to make sure it’s all ok whilst continually asking if this is ok, do you want to do this, you can do that if you want, etc. I tell her to say stop as sooooon as she wants to, I won’t harm her, but I never want someone to think they can’t say no because I am bigger (6’6, large body) so that could be intimidating. Though interesting enough I am probably more nervous than she is, like I was with my first who was way more confident… Read more »
There was a woman at work, who many people said “liked” me. We were very friendly. We talked and joked and flirted often sexually suggestive. I’ve given her rides home. She asked me to lunch. During the lunch, she mentioned her fiance. Whoa!!! Sometimes all the evidence points in a direction and it’s still wrong. We’re still friends, though.
So there is this thing called delayed gratification. And most of us, when we are really hungry and really desireous of something don’t much want to wait. But, in a case like sex it seems like ethically, morally, and legally it’s pretty much always a good idea to err on the side of delaying the immediate gratification to make sure that your partner is really in it with you. I think it gets to a scarcity model of sex wherein if you have the chance to get some, you take it. That goes for women as well as men, as… Read more »
There is a lot of great information here, but also several problem areas. If they’re not corrected we’re setting up men for some serious failures. Political dogma has to give way to reality.
Will you explain what is setting men up for serious failures?
As I expected. My concerns are covered by the comments that followed the article.
YES! Thank you for yet another article toward men about what’s rape! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Although some words were changed to appear “all inclusive” you missed all of them “Even though many women freeze when being sexually violated, which is as strong a defense mechanism as flight or fight.” It’s obvious that this is geared toward and effort to educate men and women about men.
To be clear, we didn’t change a single word in this article. Feel free to follow the link back to EF.
There is even a line where she explains that rape against men IS rape.
@ Joanna “To be clear, we didn’t change a single word in this article. Feel free to follow the link back to EF. There is even a line where she explains that rape against men IS rape.” Funny, I can’t seem to find that line. Unless you mean this … “So we need to teach both men and women that it’s still rape – intentional or not. ” Which I parse as saying that we need to teach men that their intention does not matter, and repudiating so-called “accidental rape” – which is clearly their intent based on the preceding… Read more »
Here is another example:
This is true for both girls and boys. If a younger boy has sex with an older woman, that too is considered statutory rape despite popular belief.
Slight issue with this, boys are accepted as who can be raped but adult men often are not when the perpetrator is a woman.
If it makes people feel better than maybe it can be edited to say rape affects both genders?
Archy, I already conceded that she should’ve changed “women” to “people”. Other than that, there is NO WAY in which she is excluding men from any of this.
@ Joanna
I wonder why she called it statutory rape. Surely, that’s the legal term, but it also makes it seem not quite rape. That might be something Archy is picking up on a sub conscious level.
Indeed. In culture I mostly only see talk of women harming boys, not adult men. The myth of men being able to defend themselves always from women which forgets that fight, flight comes with a third called FREEZE.
because it isnt quite rape..its a bullshit term and in most cases isnt rape at all..
Even though many women freeze when being sexually violated, which is as strong a defense mechanism as flight or fight.
like tom, i noted this. i guess men are just flesh-robots that never freeze, never feel fear
I think it’s a valid criticism that this should have said “many people freeze”. Totally agree.