Six Creepy Assumptions In “Five Things Men Do To Ruin Their Own Sex Lives”

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About Noah Brand

Noah Brand is an Editor-at-Large at Good Men Project, and possibly also a cartoon character from the 1930s. His life, when it is written, will read better than it lived. He is usually found in Portland, Oregon, directly underneath a very nice hat.

Comments

  1. #6, get married? :P

  2. +1

    Sing it, brother.

  3. I enjoyed the original article, in spite of being a woman, and I really disagree with a few of these criticisms. CA#1 is just a misunderstanding. He doesn’t say women don’t like sex. He says, constantly nagging for sex, to the detriment of other bonding (like chats), makes it seem like a chore. In his example, both parties love lasagne at first, it’s only when one partner is TOO demanding of constant lasagne that it becomes a problem. He definitely doesn’t say women don’t like sex. He’s just pointing out that people need to be in the right mood to have sex, and getting hassled doesn’t help put you in the mood. Things seem more attractive when they’re not demanded or too available.
    Likewise, CA#2 doesn’t say women don’t fart. It doesn’t say they do either. Because the article isn’t about women’s habits, it’s about men’s. I agree it’s a little childish to say “hey we’re all guys, so we all love farts” but he’s not putting anybody on pedestals. He’s not saying women don’t have to wash the stink away too. He’s just saying, if you want to be attractive, you should try not to stink. And it’s aimed at men because the article is aimed at men.
    The misunderstanding in CA#3 seems deliberate. Cheese doesn’t just say “women get jealous for no reason at all”. He prefaces the quote above with “There’s a turning point in every relationship where the impression stage fades and both people start acting like their true, honest selves. You stop laughing at jokes you don’t find funny…” He’s saying that in a relationship, you get relaxed, you stop doing that nice polite stuff you do with everybody else. Sometimes your partner can feel like you’re being nicer to strangers than to her, even though really you’re being fake with strangers out of habit. He’s not saying women are crazy, he’s saying they should be treated with respect.
    In CA#5 we’re fed the same lazy misunderstanding again. Look at Cheese’s own words: “If she’s into that sort of thing, fine. But even then, when she does act out those fantasies, she has to be doing it with you and not for you.” So again, he’s not saying women don’t have kinks. He’s just saying treat women with respect- remember they’re thinking people with their own motivations, not empty vessels for you to act out your favourite fiction on.
    I don’t defend the whole idea of men being one homogenous group who love boobies and want sex and feel certain ways in any given situation. But it’s obvious an article with “things men do” in the title has to make some generalisations. Otherwise it would be “Things Men Do: Well… there’s nothing that ALL men do so uhmm… go have a sandwich and I’ll write something different?”

    • John Anderson says:

      He generalizes women also. Although most women probably don’t like the stink, I knew one woman (a rather attractive one at that), who preferred the stink. She liked scruffy looking guys who smelled of sweat.

      • I agree, John Anderson. I’m a lot like the woman you know. If I like a guy, stink is not really a problem. Sure, there’s some threshold, but I like the smells of a man. I’ve been known to request to smell the men I’ve dated right before they shower.

    • John Anderson says:

      @ Kay

      “He definitely doesn’t say women don’t like sex. He’s just pointing out that people need to be in the right mood to have sex, and getting hassled doesn’t help put you in the mood. Things seem more attractive when they’re not demanded or too available.”

      The article is about what men do to sabotage their sex lives. So I’m confused. Not asking for sex today might get me sex tomorrow, but aren’t I already sabotaging my sex life when I’m settling for not being sexually satisfied. I basically sabotage my sex life today for sex tomorrow. Maybe the answer is to not be in a committed relationship.

      • You’re missing the subtlety of the relationship. Not asking/hassling your girlfriend doesn’t mean you won’t have sex today. She might already be in the mood to start with. If not, there are things you can do to make her feel like sex that don’t involve just saying ‘come onnnn. pleeeease’. You know, kissing, cuddles, a little butt squeeze or whatever. Seduce her. Just because she’s your girlfriend doesn’t mean ‘do you wanna have sex?’ becomes her biggest turn on. The whole point of this part of the article is to say, if you want someone to.want you, then make it seem appealing, not a chore.

        • And then the boyfriend/husband tries to turn her on, to seduce her and get’s rejected again? Then an argument starts because he kept on nagging her, or only massaged/kissed/etc her to get sex? Of course this won’t always happen but that is a potential outcome.

  4. Agree with you on 1-4 and partially on 5. It’s true that some women are freaky/kinky, but it’s also true that some women aren’t. That’s true of men too. I think his point about pressuring someone to be someone they aren’t sexually is spot on. Maybe the correct point is, don’t assume all women (or men) want to do kinky shit and don’t assume they don’t. Maybe try finding out what they like? Also, it’s true that many women are people pleasers and may do stuff in bed only because the man wants to. I have been guilty of that in past relationships, especially when I was young, and I became frustrated and resentful as a result.

    I think if you spend a lot of time on the Internet you can start to believe that absolutely everyone has fetishes or is into BDSM or whatever and that’s just not the case.

    Also, why is there this constant assumption that “vanilla” sex is “boring” sex? Sex can be extremely hot and extremely satisfying even if it doesn’t involve whips or medical instruments or animal costumes. Seriously, there is nothing wrong with either a woman or a man who says “you know what, I just want to have hot, sweaty, exciting, accessory-free sex.”

    • The author here has misrepresented the original article. It DOES advise that you find out what your partner likes and make sure not to impose things she doesn’t on her. He’s really made it sound very different than it is.

      • John Anderson says:

        I agree, but the original article was about men sabotaging their sex lives. I’m not sure that advising men to not seek what they want isn’t already sabotaging their sex lives.

    • I think if you spend a lot of time on the Internet you can start to believe that absolutely everyone has fetishes or is into BDSM or whatever and that’s just not the case.
      Ha! So true! :-)

    • dear sara in my case i try very hard to please the lady i am with so i would hope and expect she dose the same for me however you bring out a very valid point as far as a women being resentfulll of pleaseing thire man however i have allwas thought it go,s both way,s however the older i get i find that that is not true that for the most part women think only of thm selve,s so for me that mean,s haveing to find younger female lover,s who as of yet have not been jaded and are stilll quite willling to please thire man as all women should please thire man

  5. OK, I enjoyed the first 4, but I’m seriously not sure what point you’re trying to make with the links under “Creepy Assumption #5: Women Aren’t Freaky“?

    Did you miss the But she doesn’t want to do it by becoming something she’s not. part in the middle?

  6. Yeah #4 is completely on the mark. In fact, assuming that men are shallow is where most of the other stupid assumptions come from.

  7. I have to question your animosity toward John Cheese. One of the top writers on the website and gives some unconventional advice.

  8. Thank you for the farting thing. Personally, when I like a guy, I don’t care if he skips a shower, sweats, burps, farts, etc. Of course you can go too far, but I don’t get the obsession with being perfect and not understanding basic human functions. People fart. People have sweaty balls. I also want a guy around whom I can fart, burp, pee, smell a little, etc.

    • I’m with you on the “Everybody farts and that’s OK” thing.

      I just think sometimes men forget that when a woman is mid-BJ, she is typically breathing primarily through her nose, a nose that will be in very close proximity to the source of the Stink. Checking on your stink level, and possibly scrubbing up if you *do* stink, is just a nice thing to do for the woman who’s going to be spending some time down there.

      Even stink issues aside, breathing through the nose presents other complications. If a woman is stuffy/runny/drippy from a head cold or allergies, going down on you is going to be very uncomfortable and she might not be up to the challenge of figuring it out, making it work or just plain powering through it. I only say this because I’ve encountered at least one man who didn’t see why Stuffy Nose + BJ = Bad time.

      • And to be fair, women should check their stink levels too! We’re not immune to stink. Although i will say, I don’t think most women can rival the stink that most men can build up over the course of a day. But we’re generally not pristine either, and checking on the stink level before oral is a courteous thing for partners of both sexes to do for each other.

        • i aggree completaly i know in my my case iv had a few lady,s to whom it was hmmmm hunny how about shower sex tonight ??? reality i just want some hot water and soap befor i dive on that and vice versa befor we get down to seriouse bussness

        • The vagina probably releases more scent than a penis n balls do though. Men’s stink will be more from sweat ducts, but women’s can be from bacteria from the vagina, poor hygeine, etc and probably have more chance of releasing that scent than a penis does. Though either way, keep your stuff clean:P

          People should be more mindful of their breath, last person that kissed me had saliva that made me dry reach. I don’t really like kissing at the moment until I hopefully find someone with better oral hygiene, that breath traumatized me!

          • I dont know much about women, but for men a lot of the time the smell comes from the butt. If I’m going down on a guy, my nose is in that region. Some guys want analingus performed on them, and I swear the ones who smell the worst want analingus the most.

            I really hope I smell good down there. I use wipes and shower religiously.

      • John Anderson says:

        I hear that most guys would prefer to give a woman oral than receive it and count myself among them. An interesting compromise would be for a woman to let her man give her oral instead, but it seems that some women are too embarrassed to allow it.

        • One of my biggest inhibitions about receiving oral is that I worry it smells bad “down there”. My boyfriend loves to do it though, and I admit it feels really good, so I usually wash myself in that area before we have sex. It sounds a little OCD but it lets me relax and enjoy myself.

  9. . . . Kinda thought the #1 creepy assumption behind #5 was that it would be fine to pressure a partner into sex if it didn’t backfire?

  10. Actually, being pressured for sex as quick as possible is a common problem I found when dating. I find men rather have sex with me as quick as possible and take a long time to actually get to know me to see if I am “relationship material”. This is a very common problem I’ve experienced with men and from conversations with other women, I know they’ve experienced the same

    And no, women don’t have sex as a “favor” all the time but we do have to be feeling good and happy to have it. Most women won’t be in the mood for sex if she is angry. although, I know that sometimes I have had sex as a “favor” to him when I wasn’t in the mood because sometimes relationships

    And, I have also had regular problems with men expecting me to engage in things because he saw it in porn. I’ve had experiences when men performed hardcore sexual acts on me without even asking and before I knew what was happening. I don’t think saying this implies women don’t like kinky sex or that some women don’t watch porn, however, I’ve found pornography to be a much bigger issue for men and how men relate to it and I think some men stipulate many more unrealistic expectations on women from porn then women do. I’ve had men “encourage” me to be more of a “pornstar” than my actual self. Or have complimented me for being more of their fantasy then just being me.

    I don’t think the original article is as offensive Noah does because I’ve experienced some of those things very realistically in my experiences with men.

    I also agree with what Kay said above.

    • “I find men rather have sex with me as quick as possible and take a long time to actually get to know me to see if I am “relationship material”.”
      I wonder how much the stereotype “Women need love to have sex, and men need sex to find love” applies? It seems there’s a clear difference in the level of commitment each gender is willing to give, judging by your post I’m guessing men are commitment shy to dating, women are commitment shy to having sex?

      From what I’ve read n seen, it seems men pressure women into sex, and women pressure men into relationships (especially marriage). What could be done to bring both genders more aligned in their desires? Reducing the stigma of casual sex for women would be a start, reducing the negatives of a relationship for men would also be a good thing (eg sexless relationships need more work, trust issues need work, etc).

      Why are men more likely able to commit n trust women for sex earlier than women can for men?

      • I don’t like to have sex with a guy right away because I have learned from experience that casual sex is usually not that great for me. It just takes me awhile to relax and feel good about having sex with a new person. That’s not true of all women, but I’ve certainly heard a lot of women say that sex on the first date, no-strings-attached sex etc. is disappointing. So it seems to be true of many women. The stigma against being “slutty” has certainly influenced me as well, but I have to say, at this point in my life (age 46, couldn’t care less anymore about my “reputation”) the reason I don’t have casual sex is that it isn’t very pleasurable when I do.

        • I can have sex fairly early on in the relationship as long as she seems genuine and not a threat. Maybe guys value sexual compatibility more and thus more of them would prefer to have sex before getting too serious in the relationship. I know I for one would be very disappointed if we couldn’t have oral sex, and as much as women can be awesome I needs me oral sex (both give n receive) along with decent sexual compatibility. I wouldn’t wait 6 months for sex though, that’s too long, but a week, maybe a few weeks could be alright if it’s going well. If she wants me to wait 6 months then I think I’d be outa there, I want a full relationship, not some cutdown restricted lack of intimacy glorified friendship. I want romance, sex, intimacy, cuddles, massages, orgasms.

          • I’m not talking about waiting 6 months, that would make ME go crazy, ha ha, but at least a few dates. Around a month, probably.

        • John Anderson says:

          “That’s not true of all women, but I’ve certainly heard a lot of women say that sex on the first date, no-strings-attached sex etc. is disappointing”

          I wonder how much of that is due to lack of communication. He probably doesn’t know what she likes and she probably doesn’t feel comfortable telling him.

      • I don’t pressure men into relationships. I am fine with things being casual and not demanding anything of a man he isn’t ready to give on a relationships scale. I have found that even though I hold this attitude, a lot of men still persist on pushing sex as quick and early as possilbe. They don’t respect my desire to get to know them without sex even though I totally respect their desire to get to know me without a commitment. If things are “casual”, that’s fine. But please guys, don’t assume that when things are “casual” that means “casual sex”. Sometimes it means a “casual” relationships where you get to know someone.

        I also don’t believe in putting dates and time limits on when it’s okay to have sex. It happens when it happens. Sometimes that fast and early for some people and sometimes it’s not. Each relationship you have is different. Each person you date is different. You either respect that or you don’t. I don’t think waiting 6 months means someone is making the relationship a “glorified friendship”. It’s about building intimacy and knowledge of each other. You could even call it “relationship equity”.

        • John Anderson says:

          Do you ever ask the man out and do you ever pay for dates? Some guys might feel strung along and what something tangible for their emotional (asking a woman out) and financial (paying for the date) investment. If you did those things on occasion, it might convince the men you date that they could wait on sex.

          I have a friend who was a player. He dated and bedded a host of beautiful women. The woman he fell in love with and married isn’t someone conventionally attractive, but was the only woman to ask him out and pay for the date.

          • It’s disturbing how much the dating rituals of “traditional” gender roles parallel prostitution.

            • Yep. It’s too bad that dating format is still so socialized in the US. I hate it that there is this connection between paying for a date and sex when it would be better for everyone if that weren’t the case–the awkwardness with expectations and feelings of pressure or obligation.

          • I have asked men out in the past…including my future husband and fellow impoverished grad student! We went to a fancy restaurant in town and had a great time…

            I had been to that same restaurant before with someone else…it is so much better when it is with someone you really love!

          • Hi John, none of the men I ever asked out accepted. So while the fairy tale happened for your friend who dated many beautiful women, for many of us, it doesn’t. I am sure though that he settled down with her for more reasons then just her asking him out and paying for a date. I also know for myself that I prefer to be with the kind of man that will ask me out. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. For other women, being the aggressor will work. But being aggressive isn’t in my nature and I’d like to find someone that compliments my nature rather then me pretending to be someone I’m not. Sound fair?

            I just recently paid for a date with my boyfriend. At a very expensive restaurant. I understand well how men view money today in relation to dating. Sometimes when men ask you out, they don’t even want to buy you a cup of coffee. I’d prefer to be treated like a lady, just as I know men like being treated like men. Not all the things that make women feel like women are equal to the things that make men feel like men. I am usually the one in the relationship that cooks more and gives of myself in that regard. There is more going on than things that are of monetary value.

            But I don’t really get how a man’s money is nearly as anything close and intimate as actual sex is. Which is why I don’t completely understand you bringing money into the conversation. But I do understand a man wanting to get to know a woman before he commits to her. I just don’t get why men pressure for sex much faster then they actually want to really get to know you and commit. They want sex from you before they want to make any kind of real promise to you.

            • It’s hard work to earn money, so it’s important.

              “But I do understand a man wanting to get to know a woman before he commits to her. I just don’t get why men pressure for sex much faster then they actually want to really get to know you and commit. They want sex from you before they want to make any kind of real promise to you.”
              For me part of getting to know someone in a romantic sex INVOLVES sex, before that is some basic talk of course. He’s also committing to her, accepting someone and wanting them in you bed is commitment but it’s just a different commitment than what you are wanting.

              Why can’t sex be part of getting to know someone? You can learn a lot about a person from how they treat you in the bedroom, a partner who cares for you and pays attention to YOUR needs, asks you what you like n tries their best to please you would be great. I guess men may want to know earlier on if their partners are good in bed and if they will treat them good? I know that is a factor for me at least, I also don’t want to spend too much time with someone by dating if we aren’t sexually compatible as the longer it goes the harder it is to breakup. I guess I could explain it like this, if you date a guy and reallllly like them then when you have sex and he only really desires anal sex with you (and if you hate it of course), would you prefer to have known much earlier?

              Sex I guess is part of the promise, why do women pressure for a relationship to progress so far without sex if they really wanna get to know you? You can’t know your partner fully without sex.

            • Wanting to sleep with someone is not a commitment of any kind. It’s a desire. You are not promising anything by sleeping with someone. Which is why many men, in my experience, will want to take it slow regarding the actual relationship but will push for sex very quickly. They don’t want to make any kind of real promises.

              I am fine with a man wanting to take it slow and not make promises before he is ready. No problem. But then lets extend that to sex as well. Lets not claim that sex needs to happen first or that it’s a way to “commitment” before the actual emotional side of commitment is made.

              You are never going to learn everything you need to know about someone for long term compatibility by sleeping with them a few times. I also think that sex can cloud someone’s judgement. I’ve been previously blinded by someone because of sex. I let him get away with things that were actually pretty disrespectful to me outside of the bedroom. I have also been in long standing relationships with men that weren’t the best kissers or were a little klumsy at sex. Because the emotional elements were more fulfilling and I respected who he was then how good his performance in bed was. I am more interested in getting to know the man and what he is about and who he is rather then his sexual preferences and if he wants to do anal.

            • Well that may work for you but I find that limiting to wait. I’d rather do the emotional, and sexual learning side by side. I find they both work hand in hand and make each other more powerful.

            • Archy, nicely put, and that’s the way I’d feel about it if I were dating now. Clearly different people have different wishes on this, but I’m pretty sure I’d be less than pleased if I were dating someone who wanted to wait more than probably 2 dates before engaging in sexual activity. More than 3 and I’d probably encourage them to find someone whose value system and sexuality were more compatible with theirs–without rancor or thinking there was anything wrong with the guy, just that we were too different in that department. If I didn’t know the person _at all_ before the first date I might be a little more ok with waiting a tad longer. If I were 17 it would be a different story, too.

            • John Anderson says:

              “I am sure though that he settled down with her for more reasons then just her asking him out and paying for a date.”

              You’re right. That was what caused him to give her a chance. If it wasn’t for that, I don’t think he would have given her another look. He ultimately fell in love with her kindness. She changed him a lot. He was a former boxer and gang member who was so respected that he walked in and out of one of the most feared gangs. People are usually jumped (forced to absorb a beating) in or out. He went to college. Makes more than the average 2 income family for my state. He bought house and a million dollar life insurance policy and when I asked him why because he already had a million and a half with his employer, he told me that he knows his past could catch up with him at any time and he’s OK with that, but he wants to make sure that he takes care of his wife and now daughter as well.

              She saw something more in him than anyone would have believed. He didn’t understand her worth because he was blinded by what he could see. Sometimes we miss what’s right in front of us.

              “I just recently paid for a date with my boyfriend. At a very expensive restaurant”

              I would bet that this isn’t the first time you went out. Did he pressure you for sex after the date? Not just ask for sex, but pressure.

              “I’d prefer to be treated like a lady, just as I know men like being treated like men.”

              I think you have a very traditional view of how men and women interact and possibly even what their roles are. The problem with that is that society traditionally expects men to always want sex. It doesn’t surprise me that when you look for men who fit this traditional mold, you find them. You might consider looking for less traditional men. My friend dated a woman he probably wouldn’t have given a second look at and found love.

            • Yes, I do think people miss what can be right under their nose. But I’m not sure I would feel good being with a guy who wouldn’t have given me a second look otherwise. But I am glad it worked out for your friend. Funny that she saw his worth and he didn’t see hers at first. Frankly, I see this regularly with men from a female perspective and I am sure you see it regularly among women from a male perspective. Although, I often wonder how many men settle for a less conventionally attractive woman but do still pursue material of very beautiful young women.

              This was no the first time we went out. This was not the first time I used my own money in regards to spending time with him and doing and activity together. He has pressured me for sex, not that evening, but before and we talked about it. In most cases, when I have been pressured for sex early on, I felt disrespected and so I wouldn’t want to go out with that man again because I didn’t have good feelings in my interaction with him. I also felt disrespected when my current boyfriend did it. We talked about it and he apologized.

              I do have a very traditional view of how women and men interact. At least, in regards to what I personally want for myself. I think being the aggressor can work for some women. I don’t think we should be telling women to all be the aggressors if they don’t want to be or because some men will pass them by. I figure if someone is going to pass me by, that’s their problem. It should be about having the option to look for the kind of partner and relationship you want. Not all men like aggressive women. Some men do.

              I have found that both traditional and modern men that want you to go dutch push for sex way to early. They get all freaked out about “committing” but they are very quick to want to sleep with you. It’s not fun. You think I’ve only dated traditional men? I haven’t. I’ve been open to many different types of men because that is what dating is about. I’ve gone out with men that weren’t totally what I was looking for to expand my horizons so to speak. I have found that men of many different types push for sex way too soon. I also gone out with a lot of men that were the ones to ask me out, where I traveled further to see them then the have me, who didn’t even want to buy me a cup of coffee.

              I undestand that money is important and that it requires hard work to earn money. I see a lot of stinginess with men concerning money. Of course, if a man has 5 dates lined up from an internet dating site then why would he want to pay for each one of those ladies coffees. But then again, with so many options, are you really getting to know any one of those 5 ladies? I don’t really know.

              I do know that when a man feels your worthy of it, he will very much share his resources with you. Usually men that don’t want to share with you with monetary things, don’t want to share with you in other things as well. That’s been my experience.

          • The question of who pays for a drink or a date has been very context-dependent for me. While I was in college and grad school, with the people I hung out with paying was generally pretty equal, and I thought that worked very well–it made me feel like I was on an equal footing in the relationship. It didn’t make sense to me that one person would always pay and the other would not, when we generally had similar levels of funds available to us. I prefer this model and do not expect the “traditional” one where the guy usually pays. However, I have found that in other contexts guys do *not* like it when a woman offers to pay. When I go to tabletop game conventions, my guy friends tend to offer to buy me a drink at the bar. If I then offer to buy for them, they have *always* looked either somewhat upset and/or quite uncomfortable. I’ve pretty much stopped offering because it’s clear to me that they don’t like it. (Instead, I do a bit of unseen funding of the alcohol one of my best friends (also a guy) purchases and provides at one of the spots where a bunch of us hang out after games. I find the whole thing kind of awkward. Anyway, the upshot is that I’m not _expecting_ men to pay for drinks–it’s just that I’m in a context where they clearly don’t want me to pay and are unhappy if I offer. My guess is that plenty of women likewise don’t think it’s important for men to pay, but get negative feedback if they try to pay themselves. (At the same time, it seems there are also plenty of women who do expect men to pay, which I don’t condone, though I see both genders having been socialized to make it customary.)

            • Mark Neil says:

              Please take this as legitimate curiosity, not criticism, as I find your friends behavior odd, based on my own and that of my friends.

              When your guy friends were getting you drinks, was it just you, or were they including you in a round of drinks? When you reciprocated, was it just for then, or was it rounds of drinks?

              As a man, when I’m doing well for myself, I like to be generous, and sometimes will offer to pay for friends meals (particularly if they are in a low spot themselves). This generosity is generally reciprocated when the positions are reversed, and so none of us actually keeps track. When we offer to pay, and that offer is firmly rebuffed (not the polite “I’ve got this one”, “no, I’m good”, “I insist”, “are you sure?”, “yeah, I got this”, “ok, thanks man”), it can get uncomfortable. So, while I can see an awkwardness if the offer to pay your share is insisted upon, because it’s a flat out rejection of their generosity, a simple offer to pay, followed by a gracious acceptance should never cause discomfort, in my understanding (and just a hint, if you want to pay, be the first to initiate the above conversation, and make sure to use the word insist).

              That said, there is an exception to what I’ve suggested, and that may be what’s coming out in your drinks scenario, but I’d like to know the answers to my questions first.

            • No worries–I take it as legitimate curiosity. It’s a situation I find odd myself and clearly still haven’t really puzzled out. I’m in my 40s and they guys I’m talking about are somewhere between mid-30s and probably very early 50s, so generation may have something to do with it. This occurs to me at hobby conventions I go to where there are a lot more men than women, and the women who are there are often there with a boyfriend or husband. (I’m married but go alone.) It’s not usually part of buying a round of drinks for a group, but at the same time I don’t usually feel like I’m being hit on either. I think maybe in some cases the guy is enjoying been seen buying a gal a drink in a place where there aren’t many women, even though he knows it’s not a prelude to a date? When I offer to reciprocate the guy usually looks embarrassed in addition to looking a bit upset or uncomfortable, especially if anyone’s overheard me making the offer–I get the feeling the guys thinks it’s unmanly to accept. I think I do need to be more assertive, but also I think when I do the buying it probably shouldn’t be at the bar, but I should make it more obvious I’m buying for the group when I’m with a group that’s not at the bar. (Usually I do it behind the scenes and it looks like my good friend bought what we actually split.)

            • Mark Neil says:

              “I get the feeling the guys thinks it’s unmanly to accept.”

              If it’s a one on one interaction, then I would suspect that it is more akin to an open, and public, rejection that he is reacting to, then it being unmanly to accept. You’ve clearly picked up that it “could” be seen as hitting on you, even if you don’t think it is. I would recommend that, in a one on one case, when a guy offers to buy you a drink, and you aren’t accepting it as an advance, make clear the accepting is conditional on you getting the next round (“sure, but I’ve got the next round”). This makes it a rejection of the advance, at the time of the advance, not as a follow up after the fact… But also accepts it as a show of graciousness, as well as paying him back for the drink (so he isn’t out a drink). It grants him an out that saves face.

              And the other solution, which you appear to also have picked up on, is to start up rounds, as a group. Most people, at least most guys (I’m not really familiar with girls in this situation, the buying of rounds tends to be a guys night thing in my experience, though the few girls who participate usually chip in their round), will pick up a round if they have been getting rounds from others.

              This is, of course, just my thoughts on the issue as described.

            • “make clear the accepting is conditional on you getting the next round (“sure, but I’ve got the next round”)”
              Nice–I think that will help, thanks. I was never part of that kind of bar scene when I was younger so it’s weird figuring it out now. I should probably mention that most of these guys really aren’t hitting on me (have made no subsequent advance). If I think that’s the frame of mind they are in, I usually manage to find a way to avoid or graciously not accept a drink offer.
              My original point was more to Jon Anderson, that at least in some communities women might have a hard time thinking it’s ok to offer to pay, if they get the same sort of reactions I did when trying to buy the second drink.

            • Mark Neil says:

              I think drinks and meals are a little different. I’ve never offered to buy a friend a drink, it’s ether an entire round for everyone, or just my own. I have offered to cover friends meals when they are down. I don’t know, maybe drinks are more personal? Regardless, I think the difference largely resides in two factors: 1: offering to pay for just your half of a meal when they have offered to pay the full bill can come off as a rejection (If you need me to explain further, let me know). That could be seen as off-putting. 2: refusing to accept when they have insisted is an insult. Gender plays no part in this. As Archy noted, money is hard to earn. If I’m offering to spend it on you without your asking, it is generosity, not charity. Throwing that generosity back at me is an insult unless you have a damn good reason.

              Ether of these can result in the reactions you describe, and they have nothing to do with an opinion of how women should act. That said, there will be men out there that are precisely what you describe, but I do think they are rare. I think too often it is a misunderstanding, perhaps one of the two I listed, and the woman who experiences the man getting upset injects what THEY think is the cause… and think for a minute how often we are told how oppressive men are, is it any wonder the motive injected becomes one of demanding subservience rather than something more benign?

            • Mark Neil says:

              PS. Forgot. Never was one for the club scene ether. My advice regarding drinks is largely personal perspective and the less common pub night. So YMMV

            • Meals haven’t been an issue for me in the situation I’m describing. We all buy our own meals, and offers to pay for others’ meals aren’t made, at least that I’ve noticed. From what you’ve said, now I’m more confused about the drinks. I think I’ll just continue what I’ve been doing and make sure I’m helping provide drinks for the gang when we’re not in the bar area.

              I’m not sure what it was I described with regard to “there will be men out there that are precisely what you describe”? I don’t think anyone’s being oppressive to me or demanding subservience. I just don’t really get what the social convention is supposed to be with regard to my own role in the drink situation with this particular group.

            • Mark Neil says:

              “I’m not sure what it was I described with regard to “there will be men out there that are precisely what you describe”? ”

              “I get the feeling the guys thinks it’s unmanly to accept.”

              These types do exist, I just think they are more rare than is made out to be. That any rebuff of an offer to pay is presumed to be this type, when other factors can exist.

              Not sure what I said to confuse you regarding drinks, but I offered my perspective. You are free to take it or leave it, but nothing will change if you don’t do anything different. G

            • “I get the feeling the guys thinks it’s unmanly to accept.”
              “”These types do exist, I just think they are more rare than is made out to be. That any rebuff of an offer to pay is presumed to be this type, when other factors can exist.”"
              >Ah–I didn’t make that clear. That was one guess on my part but really I have no idea.

              “Not sure what I said to confuse you regarding drinks”
              >You said “I’ve never offered to buy a friend a drink, it’s ether an entire round for everyone, or just my own.” If guys don’t get drinks for other guys on an individual basis, then I’m not being treated the same as a guy friend by these folks. Most of the guys I’m talking about don’t seem to be trying to get me into bed, though, either. But they still they look a bit confused or bummed out or embarrassed if I offer to buy the next drink for us. (It’s not a big huge problem for me–I just think it’s interesting since I don’t understand the social dynamic. Maybe the fact that I’m married but unaccompanied by husband in a setting where there are few women and lots of men makes the situation unusual and creates an unusual drink-purchase social convention.) Anyway, I’ll handle it the next time the way you suggest–accept contingent upon me getting the next set of drinks so it’s not a surprise later on. And if that doesn’t go over well I’ll make sure to contribute more openly to the non-bar alcohol in the group setting and continue to not offer in the bar setting. Oh, I could try offering when there are rounds being purchased for a group (rather than on an individual basis)–I think that probably needs to be late in that cycle, though. I’ve tried a couple of times but a guy always overrides me. If all the guys in whatever group had already bought a round, maybe they’d let me. Eh, usually after a few rounds we all would have moved to a non-bar area anyway.

              Anyway, like I said it’s not a problem for me–just a social dynamic I don’t really understand, and if possible I’d like to be seen as contributing somewhere where it’s not going to make any of the guys uncomfortable.

        • For me, 6 months is way way way too long. If they can’t trust me after a month to have sex then is it really going to be worth it? Time is finite, I don’t have 6+ months to waste on a relationship without sex, something that may or may not leave us sexually compatible. I’d rather know far sooner whether compatibility is there.

          I don’t mind if others want to wait, but for me personally it feels more like a friendship than a relationship. If you can’t get to know someone enough after a few weeks of dating then are you really trying hard enough? What exactly do you need to know?

          • I think that’s up for each individual to decide and we shouldn’t shame people for it.

            Waiting 6 months isn’t good for you. No worries. Then you know what to do if you meet a woman that wants to wait that long. I am sure she will even agree since your goals are different. But I don’t think it’s fair to self-describe other people’s relationships if they simply don’t fit into what you would define as a relationship. You don’t see a reason to wait any longer, again, that’s okay. Others might, no need to imply that that choice is wrong.

            • I should emphasize more this is only applicable to me personally, dunno if that came through clearly. Others need longer of course because we all have differing levels of trust, desires to meet, etc. I didn’t mean to say or imply that it’s crazy for others to take that long, just that for me it feels like a glorified friendship if it doesn’t involve sex or intimacy (kissing, sex, flirting, etc).

      • just a guy says:

        “Why are men more likely able to commit n trust women for sex earlier than women can for men?”

        Because sex isn’t about commitment or trust for me. Sex is for fun. I basically have to trust that she doesn’t have HIV or herpes, or some strange desire to be impregnated by a stranger. All I’m committing to is trying to have us both enjoy things.

      • Archy,
        “Why are men more likely able to commit n trust women for sex earlier than women can for men?”

        The answer is simple. Men just want sex more. A lot of men have a biological urge to have a lot of sex with whoever. They’re just not as into getting to know people as the average woman.

        For me, sex doesn’t have much have anything to do with commitment or trust. Commitment? Most guys just leave after they get what they want. Trust? Sex is simply a physical act, and I wouldnt read anything more into it most of the time. For whatever reason, Ive heard a couple men equate men and trust before…Im not really sure why.

        • It’s a commitment past what you get with friendship. So some women will wait longer because they want to be sure the man wants her for her and not just a quick root, but in turn if they wait too long they will chase off otherwise interested men because they don’t want to wait. Such a tricky game to balance. I guess casual sex for women might be seen as a waste of time if he doesn’t hang around, and on the other hand dating without sex can also be seen as a waste of time because she can simply stop going on dates. That might make men more likely to see her having sex with him as a sign that she’s more interested in him than if she made him wait quite a while whilst dating.

          Make me wait 6 months and I’ll take it as a sign you aren’t ready to commit and aren’t that interested in a sexual relationship most likely, at least not one that matches my sexuality. Seeing as it’s probably more difficult to suppress a libido, should be working at ways to increase women’s libido far more to match men’s? I’ve heard very small amounts of testosterone can increase the libido significantly for women though I am unsure of any side effects with that, too much of course would be bad. Social changes also need to be put in place such as killing off slutshaming, etc which should help. So many problems seem to occur from one partner’s lack of libido, which tends to be the woman, leaving women bugged for sex and men not having their desires fulfilled enough.

          “For me, sex doesn’t have much have anything to do with commitment or trust. Commitment? Most guys just leave after they get what they want.”
          The guys you date don’t want a relationship? Why would they just leave? Do you discuss the kind of relationship you want beforehand?

          • Archy:
            “It’s a commitment past what you get with friendship.”
            I wouldn’t say sex is a commitment past friendship most of the time. Sex is just sex most of the time. If two friends started having sex, most of the time it doesn’t mean anything, except now they are friends with benefits.

            I guess casual sex for women might be seen as a waste of time if he doesn’t hang around
            Well, for me it is a waste of time. I’m a busy lady, and I dont have time to be bothered by someone who isn’t serious about me. He is taking my precious time when i could be working, searching for someone who is serious, or otherwise bettering myself.
            Seeing as it’s probably more difficult to suppress a libido, should be working at ways to increase women’s libido far more to match men’s?
            Yes, there could definitely be some unintended consequences! I dont think that is the answer though. I’ve accepted that men and women are very different. Also, sometimes you just have to catch a woman at the right time of the month. I was in a situation in which my sex drive was higher (pregnancy), and I honestly didnt think it was that great.
            Social changes also need to be put in place such as killing off slutshaming Agreed, I never understood why women get called sluts, its men who seem so much more sex focused. Makes no sense to me.
            So many problems seem to occur from one partner’s lack of libido, which tends to be the woman, leaving women bugged for sex and men not having their desires fulfilled enough.
            But would the the average man be sexually fulfilled even if his partner had higher sex drive?

            “The guys you date don’t want a relationship? Why would they just leave? Do you discuss the kind of relationship you want beforehand?
            Most guys are going to find it creepy if a woman asks “Where is this going” early on. In my experience most guys make it obvious what they want pretty quickly anyway. I could ask, but he could easily lie. I think it’s better to pay attention to how people act rather than what they say.

            • It’s not really fair if women’s sexual needs are met in a relationship but his aren’t because his are higher. Should the compromise be that if he doesn’t want as much cuddling n other forms of intimacy he should dole it out like low libido women would do for sex? Simply saying men n women are different doesn’t accomplish much, how do they cope with the differing sex drives? Men will feel like they aren’t getting enough, women might feel pressured, boosting one to match the other is probably the way to go unless they make something to suppress a sex drive a tiny tiny bit so it doesn’t kill it completely or do major suppression like some antidepressants.

              I guess the alternative is allowing the men to look at porn but we know how that works out:P

            • “Archy”
              I guess the alternative is allowing the men to look at porn but we know how that works out:P
              But a lot of guys would look at porn regardless. There would always be a reason. If it wasn’t “I dont get enough sex” it would be something else.

              There’s really no satisfying some mens sexual appetites. Making women hornier isn’t going to help at all. The issue isn’t that the wife isn’t horny enough. Sometimes men just want a different women.

  11. “Presumably on the planet where that’s true, women only masturbate when they’re trying to do their vibrator a solid, because hey, it works hard.”

    LOL, thank you

  12. Hahaha, this is so raw and passionate Noah but you do speak truth. Thankyou for exposing this. I think its sad how such poorly informed information is being spewed out to us men from every corner of the media. It only serves to de-man-ize us more making us more confused about ourselves, our desires and our nature. It’s hard enough dealing with our sexuality without feeling guilty about our desires when fellow men tell us how neanderthal we are when compared to women. I’m grateful for the Good Man Project which continues to expose and inform and teach. Thankyou again.

  13. I’m a man, half asian ( east asian ) , muslim, muscular ( not freakishly big like bodybuilder, but more like fitness model, actually i’m a fitness model ) . Yeah, everytime i go to internet probably i would see a generalization towards me.

    Man = only want to have casual sex, don’t want a relationship, do not have emotion, etc. I don’t really like casual sex, I want relationship , I’m never pushed my partner to have sex with me, I have emotion, i even have cried during and after sex, i like foreplay, cuddling .

    Asian = good at math, dancing, good at playing RTS games, could play piano very well, have small penis, etc. I’m not really good at Math ( although not really bad ) , I cant dance, I’m a very very very bad gamer , I cant play piano , well for my penis maybe it really small lol .

    Muslim = violent, women beater/hater, christian and jewish hater, have beards, not tolerant. I hate violence, i love women, I see women as equal as men, I don’t hate christian and jewish, I have many christian and jewish friends, I don’t have beards, I’m tolerant .

    Muscular = stupid, have ridiculous idea that women like muscle, only lift weights to attract women, using steroids, have small d*cks ( again lol ). I’m smart ( although not in math ), I lift weights not to attract women, i never use steroids. Again, my dick always have been small even before lifting weights lol.

    I see generalizations towards me all the time. I used to being so angry and sad hearing those stereotypes. Sometimes only reading and hearing those stereotype comments could make me cry ( I know i’m a pussy ). But now i just dont f*cking care anyomere. Maybe i’m just a minority? Maybe, but I certainly know many many many many many many good men who are like me, asians who are like me, muslims who are like me, muscular men who are like me.

    Well maybe I’m just a minority, or maybe every human is just different. Gender, religion , race, and body type certainly don’t make what human are you.

    The original article make many generalization towards men. Well I don’t f*cking care. He can say anything he want, but I know what kind of human i am.

  14. Bay Area Guy says:

    Is it just me, or are Americans some of the biggest prudes in the Western world?

  15. wellokaythen says:

    The original ‘Five things’ is actually excellent advice for men, if by “men” you mean completely clueless 16 year old illiterate cretins who learned about sex from really bad websites. (Okay, so not necessarily a small group of people, but hardly representative.) Excellent for some young men by the age of 18, maybe. For most men? Hardly even chuckle-worthy.

  16. My main problem with John Cheese’s article is that it still fail to recognize women sexual agency and subjectivity. Is it so hard for some people to realize that? Maybe, she did that awesome thing you like because you did that awesome thing she like.

    It’s like I can’t have desires and preferences. It’s like i can’t LOVE anal sex, while hating to be on the receiving end of it. I’m a freak. I LOVE pegging men. You don’t like it? Then why are you still talking to me? Still trying to get me to have sex with you even though you’re not going to give me what I want, huh?

    Ah, the joy of casual sex for a woman. It’s unbelievably rapish. Prepare yourself with really, really thick skin if you’re a woman. Prepare to fight for your agency and to fight to keep it. PREPARE! You will think that one will shrug and move on, but nope! That’s not going to happen.

    I also want to note that “getting to know” before sex doesn’t have anything to do with it possibly getting romantic. I have to have a “get to know” phase in casual sex, myself. It doesn’t have to be intimate or anything. And that’s okay.

  17. wellokaythen says:

    I love the Bodyform ad. The blue-colored water was a nice touch. I always thought if your period is coming out blue, then you have much bigger issues than leakage or absorption. You should see a doctor immediately.

  18. Maybe because I’m half asian and live in Asia (S. Korea), I have a hard time connecting with what most women here said about their dating experience. Most men push sex early in relationship, most men want casual sex and afraid of commitment. Is that what men do in USA and Europe? In my experience, and what i hear from my guy and girl friends, most men don’t do that. Hell here casual sex is not really big. Some people do it, but most people do not.

    I’m serious, i feel disconnected. My dating experience most of the time are going to movies, going to park together, or just doing anything together. Getting to know each other together. I never pushed my gf for sex ( and i know most of my guy friends too ). Six months? I have dated for 3 years without sex at all. And the reason for my breakup is not because of sex at all. I know many of my friends who are still virgin even they have dating for years.

    What most people here defining a man is very different from what i know, so i feel disconnected. Really

    • I wouldn’t go more than a month or 2 in a relationship without any form of sex unless there is a good reason (illness, childbirth, long distance). I don’t wanna get tied down too early either, by that I mean married, I need time to build trust enough for marriage as that is a huge step and a pledge to spend your life together. Not to mention the cost of marriage is really high here, $25k+ and that is also a worry. I don’t feel comfortable moving too fast in a relationship though, so sex might need a few days, maybe a week but who knows. When it feels right, is when it happens hopefully. I am just utterly turned off to the idea of wanting sex and not gettign any whilst being in a relationship, spending time together is nice n all but I cn do that to a certain degree with my friends. A relationship has to be something more, I wanna look into her eyes as we have sex and laugh n smile together n feel an orgasm (or 4) together. I want my body and her’s to be filled with sexual energy, emotional n physically in extacy, and not just from holding hands n kissing.

      If I am REALLLLLY into her and feel it’s worth it, I may wait longer but hopefully not too much longer, and I hope we can at least do something sexual like mutual masturbation. Craving sex for months won’t make it more special for me because it’s special from who she is, not the time waited. To make sex really special requires love and that’ll probably happen eventually anyway. I’ll never ever wait till marriage though.

      I am a late 20′s male in Australia and I know not many of my friends want to wait too long either, sex is too great to hold off on to people like me. It’s like dating without hugging n kissing each other, sex is still special to me if it happens one week or one month into the relationship. Imagine how you’d feel if you can’t hold hands or cuddle for months n months, only talk to each other to get to know each other, would you feel frustrated?

      • John Anderson says:

        “I may wait longer but hopefully not too much longer, and I hope we can at least do something sexual like mutual masturbation.”

        That’s probably one of the problems. People equate sex with PIV and there are other ways to have sex. People need to learn to compromise with their partners and that requires communication.

        • Yep, it’s your responsibilities to each other to try ensure both your needs are met. Lying next to your partner naked if you aren’t in the mood can be a great help.

  19. John Anderson says:

    The biggest problem I have with John Cheese’s article is that I believe that when two people in a committed relationship have different libidos, it is important for both people to compromise. Not just in frequency, but in what acts they’ll do also. I’m not suggesting that anyone do anything that they aren’t willing to do or that anyone should stay in a relationship where their needs are being ignored by their partner. In some cases sex could be a deal breaker in a relationship and that’s OK too. Wish the other person well and find someone more compatible.

    What I’m suggesting is that in a relationship where most things are compatible and where the differences can be overcome, people should compromise. I view sex as an aspect of this. One person will get sex a little less often than wanted. The other will get it a little more often than wanted or the type of sex can be negotiated like in the case of the woman who gave her boyfriend oral when she was busy. 5 minutes later her boyfriend was happy and she was doing what she needed to do. It seems that it was more important for sex not to be a big production at those times. I also think that it’s OK for a man (or a woman) to say I’m not getting what I need out of this relationship. I need to be with someone else. Compromise and men’s needs, which the article suggests the advice will ultimately lead to fulfilling, seem to be ignored.

  20. Sorry to break this to you Noah, Cracked doesn’t consider men to be included within social justice. It has made a number of attack articles on men’s rights and the men’s rights movement.

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