Technology giveth, Chuck Rudd writes, and then it taketh and giveth again.
It is important for us to remember that pornography is a byproduct of technology. Without technology, we literally wouldn’t have porn, and if we didn’t have porn we wouldn’t have any of the discussions over whether porn is detrimental to men, relationships, or society. The printing press, transportation, the camera, television, video, computers, the internet, digitization, and broadband have all contributed to the ubiquity of porn. In turn, porn has also provided a profit motive for the development of various forms of technology. For example, VHS, the internet, and e-commerce payment systems were all tweaked and improved by the market demand for porn.
If my experience with porn is at all normal, porn watching often comes paired with shame and guilt. Even those men who think that a certain amount of porn viewership is a normal and even healthy expression of sexual drive can wonder if they are addicted or if they are doing something wrong. Our shame may possibly develop into a larger self-degradation and latent self-esteem issues. My question: has access to faster, freer porn diminished the shame instinct? I believe that just as porn has become economically cheaper to consume, it has also become psychically cheaper. And this is a good thing as we negotiate between the virtuous cycle of technology and the vicious cycle of sexual self-gratification.
Think of how porn was consumed through the dark ages of VHS, DVD, and dial-up on through to the broadband era and “tube” porn sites. It goes without saying that porn has mostly been consumed in solitude, and it seems to me that the lengths that men go to in order to ensure privacy feeds back into the level of shame he feels.
With VHS and DVD, men had to actually go to a store and buy porn. Like a schlub, he’d rub elbows with and divert his eyes from – let’s be honest – junkies, lowlifes, and other salty characters he wouldn’t trust his money, child, or wife/girlfriend with. This was a very demeaning process, and, on a side note, it probably gave rise to the “Adult Novelty Store” concept. If porn store owners threw some dildos on the wall and lingerie on a metallic rack the store wouldn’t just seem like some outpost for lonely, horny men. Just to rebuff any argument that the porn store didn’t carry a connotation of shame. Save those few that cater to couples or women, if you’ve ever been into a porn store (and I have), have you ever witnessed a conversation? Did any of the customers talk to each other like two acquaintances crossing paths in a Wal Mart? That porn store shoppers value privacy over everything else indicates that shame and guilt are carried into and out of the store in obscured brown paper bags.
The internet hasn’t totally killed the brick and mortar porn store. They still exist – mostly on interstate highways and in seedier parts of town – in other words: places with spotty internet connections. But in the internet’s infancy, the porn procurement process was arduous. Besides getting caught in the process of watching porn – which is a problem regardless of the method of obtaining it – one had to download it and store it. This requires two forms of work – both which have a psychological impact which feeds into our shame reservoir.
First, spending time to download porn is debilitating as sexual shame mixes with shame over unabashed self-gratification and general futility. The user thinks of what else he should have been doing instead of tickling his own fancy, and, it leads to post hoc self-directed anger. The dial-up nature of the internet played in to this. It could take hours to compile enough material to make it through one “session”. This was true for me during my teenage, dial-up years – replete with 56k modem screechings and grainy porn clips – and I’ve surveyed other male friends who’ve said the same.
Second, users had to either store the material or had to scrub their computers clean. Storing porn probably has the same mental impact as storing anything else you don’t want family members, kids, spouses, girlfriends, or friends to see. To be extreme, if you bury a dead body in your back yard you’ll probably always be fearful that someone will dig it up. My strategy was always to hide my stash from my parents and, later, from my girlfriend in a misdirection folder with a title that was designed to fit seamlessly into the file directory. “School stuff” always worked. But hiding things is rarely psychically healthy. Add all of this slinking around and hiding – which was also done with VHS or DVD – in with actually watching the material, and you have several layers of shame stacked on top of each other. And it is shame, male guilt, and the feeling that we, as men, have no moral standing that has led to the types of conversations taking place on this site.
But what has changed? Free, ubiquitous porn. Porn at your fingertips which requires almost nothing to procure. All you need is your computer, your other hardware, and some privacy in order to, as my old high school basketball coach used to say, “get it on and get it over with”. None of the extra time and privacy costs. The increased use of these “Tube” style porn websites has helped streamline the porn procurement process. No waiting; no downloading; no purchase necessary; no hiding; no scrubbing. All of this adds up to less shame.
To sum all of this up: technology gave us porn, which gave men other issues to sort out. Technology, it seems, giveth, and then taketh, and then giveth again. And we’re just here trying to maintain.
Sources:
1.“Pornography, Technology, and Progress,” Jonathan Coopersmith. http://history.tamu.edu/faculty/coopersmith/coopersmith%20personal/pornography%20technology%20and%20progress.pdf
—Photo ojbyrne/Flickr
Well to me, it feels like women get crapped on no matter what we do. Damned if we do and damned if we don’t. If our boyfriends/husbands are expecting us to do all this other crap just to keep his interest so he doesn’t “act out” in other ways. That’s ridiculous. AND immature. And how many times Carter have you doe the likes of what you suggest? Made yourself an entirely other nationality to please your woman or pretended you were a fresh faced teenage boy? My guess is men don’t do that crap because women accept them for who… Read more »
My response wasn’t supposed to “solve” anything. I was simply responding to your question. And thank you for demonstrating to everyone what a straw man is. Show me where I said that women should do whatever men want them to do in order to avoid him “acting out”. I simply advocated honest and open communication. What a woman does with that information is entirely her choice. You even said yourself that you wouldn’t want to be with someone who had a kink for teens or Asians. How are you supposed to know he has those desires unless there is honest… Read more »
“By the way, I do have a question for you. Lets say that men are feeling less shame for their porn use (which I think they are, we just disagree about how healthy this is), what does a wife or girlfriend do with whatever knowledge he wants her to know about him and his porn use? How is she suppose to feel about that? Do you think that a man sharing how he likes teenagers, or asians or fake boobs is going to endear him more to his woman? Make communication about sex healthier? I don’t know these answers.” Shoot,… Read more »
Regarding your question as to how a woman is supposed to feel about her man watching porn; women aren’t “supposed” to feel anything. Some women will be offended, some will be intrigued, some will be indifferent, and some may even find it endearing. There is no one way women are supposed to feel. It depends entirely on the woman and her preferences. Finding out your boyfriend likes teenagers or Asians sounds like an interesting excuse to buy a school girl outfit or buy make-up to make yourself look Asian (assuming you aren’t already Asian). Regarding fake boobs, you could purchase… Read more »
With respect to the whole “porn makes women” feel shame debate, can anyone help me understand how my private viewing of porn relates to the definition of shame: “shame (shm) noun 1. a. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace. b. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame? 2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation. 3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy. 4. A great disappointment.” From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shame I personally don’t understand it. Can anyone help me out here? How does my watching porn cause “guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or… Read more »
Could be that women internalize disgust for someone else’s action as shame that they are with that person? It’s hard to live with the cognitive dissonance of feeling resentment or anger at your partner for his private actions and wondering how he can love you AND do the porn thing. So a woman might choose to internalize that as “something must be wrong with me?”
I don’t know if that’s the case, it’s just a wild guess at this point.
“some women” not all, obviously. Just a left field guess.
Yeah, to characterize men’s use of porn as bringing shame onto women is wholly incorrect. Men’s use of porn should be recognized by women as competition. Competition does not bring on shame. It might bring on anger, frustration, or hostility, but it does not create a shame response. Shame is something that someone feels for their own actions, behaviors, thoughts, feelings, etc. Historically, people could bring shame to their families if they acted outside of social norms, but that was way back when shame was transferable – when people were part of a larger collective.
Yeah, to characterize men’s use of porn as bringing shame onto women is wholly incorrect. Men’s use of porn should be recognized by women as competition. I wouldn’t say incorrect. Different maybe but not incorrect. I think Julie’s question of: So a woman might choose to internalize that as “something must be wrong with me?” Could fulfill the “great dissappointment” definition that wet_one brings up. Said woman is disappointed in her self because she feels inadequate in her own body and abilities. Such a woman is probably wondering if she is looking at porn does it mean that she is… Read more »
So why do 4 year old boys (like me) start off with the lingerie catalogue? I’m reasonably sure it’s not about shame Danny. As well, the way that shame has been discussed in this thread seemed to relate to simple use of porn in private. Not in a relationship. Not that that matters. After all, if the woman is the only one who knows that the man is using porn, what is there to be ashamed about? It’s not like he was convicted of a crime with his name splased all over the news media. That’s seems consistent with the… Read more »
I don’t understand what you are saying wet_suit_one. I will explain the “shame in women part.” Per the first part of your definition: “A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.” Men viewing porn in such a ubiquitous fashion as they do now can can cause feelings of unworthiness or embarrassment in women because porn sets impossibly high standards for women. These standards can become perceived by men as being the norm, or necessary for sexual enjoyment. When women are aware of this, they can easily feel as though they can never compare and… Read more »
How does porn set the standard for women? Men actually do live in the real world and not a porno world (only porn stars live in porno world). They know what real women are like as they work with them, go to school with them and realize that what’s in porno is not what they are going to get. If they don’t realize this, porn is not the problem, but a serious psychological derangement. What I hear you saying is that women are shamed by something that men consume in private as fantasy. Or, women are shamed by men’s fantasies.… Read more »
Even though you work with and talk with real women, I am assuming you’re not having sex with all of those women. How do you know what to expect in terms of female sexuality or how women look naked or should look naked? The obvious answer is porn which is not always an accurate depiction of sexuality or the female body (you know… like women have pubic hair). Some people do use porn as a form of sexual education, because no one talks explicitly about healthy sexual behavior. I think if you don’t understand what I mean, you probably never… Read more »
Huh… I’ll have to chew on this for awhile. I can see some evidence of what you speak. However, I still find it hard to believe in some ways. Can any of the other women here speak to this response? Is what Artemis says, specifically this: “Is women’s desire to please men so great that the mere suggestion that they can’t be his ultimate fantasy the real threat? Is the fact that they can’t be his be all and end all a real problem for women?” Yes. It really is. I am not kidding you. There is an implicit message… Read more »
So I guess I can agree with Artemis. If I was newly in a relationship and discovered my mate was watching lots of porn, I’d have to check myself and my reactions for the “I’m not turning him on, I’m not enough for him” dynamic. And this is soemthing I think has less to do with “am I sexy enough” and more…”wow, men really think about sex at a 180 to women and no matter what I do or who I am or how hot I try to be, he’ll still want other women.” And that can make a person… Read more »
For my part, I don’t think I really have the “I need to be the only one” idea. In fact, I often tease the sweetie by asking her if she finds xyz guy hot or not, or who she fantasizes about. Inevitably she says she has no sexual feelings except when provoked by myself. I think that is a warning sign of something given what has been discussed above. Another factor that I think supports my concept that I need not be the “only one” is that the idea is just so shocking to me. It’s truly alien thinking to… Read more »
Really, my only expectation of myself vis a vis women (not just sex, but the whole relationship) is to do my duty vis a vis her. In other words, I will be faithful; I will make her reasonably comfortable; I will bring home the bacon, and I will treat her decently (better than most for sure, but not like a goddess). That’s it, that’s all. If that’s not good enough for her, well, to hell with her, too much of a hassle and not worth the effort. I think a significant fraction of men behave and think pretty much the… Read more »
You have to remember that many women are taught how “special” sex is supposed to be. We teach girls here in Texas that True Love Waits, that ab only is the most important sex ed, that sex is this special pure thing. That if a man loves you he’ll wait, you’ll wait, etc etc, that your vagina is a precious flower and if you have too much sex you’ll be ruined. Funny thing, it was taught less in the 80’s and 90’s but man the rhetoric in schools (in the south at least) around the preciousness of virginity and purity… Read more »
I really hope Erin responds to this. I’ve canvassed the question and answer with my sister and my best friend. So far, they both find it a ridiculous point of view. For my own part, I see evidence of what Artemis is saying all over the place. In most of my relationships, in various articles all over the place. It’s a seriously big deal. And it’s downright odd to me, but it is what it is. I agree with your final paragraph Julie “Now understand me, I don’t think it’s the right thing to teach women, just that it is… Read more »
I’m all good with teaching women those good things about sex. I want men taught too, that women who have sex aren’t sluts, that being her “first” isn’t as important as being someone important in her life. That her having more partners doesn’t make her a bad person.
It’s got to be a deprogamming both ways.
I’ll agree with that Julie. It’s such an odd, odd world we live in. It’s akin to religious belief in some ways or finding out that Santa Claus isn’t real. Just to stir the pot some, I’ll share a response I got from my friend about this. Yeah, I like to be a bit of a dick that way (especially when I’m safely anonymous). However, this is fair, IMHO, and honest response to the line of discussion here: “I just find it laughable, sorry. The strong women I know would laugh you off the face of the earth. They aren’t… Read more »
And just because it isn’t entirely clear in my comment above, I totally agree about the deprogramming of males thing. I’ve met more than a few women who aren’t held in the highest regard by society in general. Without a doubt, most of them were just average people just like everyone else and most of them were unique simply because they didn’t have the same hangups and shame about their bodies and what they do with them that everyone else does. I have nothing but the utmost respect for every last one of them (except for those who ripped me… Read more »
I’m pretty sure that whatever I thought I took away from what Artemis said, is, on reflection wrong. There’s some substance to what she said, and I have no doubt that ubiquitous porn use is a problem for her. I still don’t understand why and I still don’t see how it can lead to shame. In fact, I’m not sure that it does lead to shame in women as it merely asserted by one person and not proved as such. I know that a number of women feel that porn (or any image for that matter) sets the standard of… Read more »
Oh brother. Now I’m causing my very self some serious disgust. But I just couldn’t help providing this link in light of the discussion in this thread.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2105339/Sexpresso-Wives-ban-husbands-visiting-Italian-cafe-busty-barmaid-serves-drinks-skimpy-outfits.html
It’s not completely related to the discussion, but it’s not totally unrelate to the discussion either IMHO…
I’m leaving now. Seriously, I am! I won’t be back! I promise! (Why do I lie to myself like this? In public no less! Daaaahhh!!!)
“There’s some substance to what she said, and I have no doubt that ubiquitous porn use is a problem for her.” heh, actually it’s not. I watch porn, my boyfriend watches porn, I’m mostly okay with it. There are aspects of the mainstream porn industry that I dislike, but not porn as a concept. There’s so much variety that I can’t really be uncomfortable with porn overall. However, I think I am a fairly secure, confident woman who is also comfortable with her own sexuality. But it takes work to get to that point. Women are socialized to value themselves… Read more »
Chuck, to address your comments, think of it this way. Today there is a big conversation about how men are shamed for their masculinity or the perception of lack of masculinity, when they don’t conform to social stereotypes about men. GMP has a hand in wanting to keep this conversation open so that masculinity is not only defined within a narrow set of ideals that society was originally created for men to live up to. Often, ideals about masculinity have the ability to make men feel ashamed for who they really may be so that they fit into that conformed… Read more »
I think this is the best post from you on this, Erin.
It’s pretty much what I was trying to say in my first post. Thanks Artemis.
Erin, I’m not sure why you want to turn this particular topic into a discussion about how much shame women incur by men’s use of porn. There are plenty of discussions all over the internet on this topic so I wanted to explore a different angle on it. Perhaps the girlfriend or wife of the man in question isn’t aware of her boyfriend/husband’s porn use – though he is still ashamed of it, and he is even more ashamed because he’s hiding it. Regardless, what you’re calling shame which you say women feel is actually inadequacy. Women may feel inadequate… Read more »
Chuck, I am kind of disappointed that you seem to be suggesting that women do not experience shame about porn but only feelings of inadequacy. Yes, clearly women can feel inadequate when pitted up against porn. (Can you blame them? I can’t.) However, that is not anything close to what I am talking about. Please go back and read my very first post to see how I talk about how women might feel shamed for themselves, their own regular sexually and their own regular bodies in the light of so much porn that makes women a commodity where the next… Read more »
Erin seems like a bit of a dingbat but there might be a kernel of truth somewhere in there. Unfortunately it’s buried in a lot of vague statements that sound more like feminist propaganda than real life experience. A lot of feminist angst seems to stem from a visceral concern that some man somewhere is enjoying something without having to ask a woman’s permission. Just like the pill and sexual liberation allowed women to have sex without a husband, now broadband internet porn is allowing men to have sex without a girlfriend. For some, there were negative consequences of each… Read more »
Erin seems like a bit of a dingbat but there might be a kernel of truth somewhere in there.
Hold up. There’s got to be a better way to say that without comparing her to a dingbat is there?
A better way to say what Danny? How is there a “better way” to call someone a name?
Way to have a mature conversation Mike. I don’t name call and I don’t respect those that use name calling. When you want to have a respectful conversation, let me know. Until then, your first sentence has completely undermined anything else you’ve gone on to say. And that’s a real shame because you did that to yourself.
A better way to say what Danny? How is there a “better way” to call someone a name? Simple: “She may not appear to know what she is talking about but….” “She may not have all the facts straight but….” “She may not be in the right place but…” “I don’t agree with all that she is saying but…” When I said, “There’s got to be a better way to say that without comparing her to a dingbat is there?” I meant that as “There has got to be a better way to say you don’t agree with her without… Read more »
How about simply forging all those, which all sound really condsending to begin with an saying something like, “I don’t agree with this but I agree when she said that…” or as you said, “I don’t agree with everything Erin is saying but there might be a kernel of truth somewhere in there.” It would also be nice if he actually shared what he did agree on but he didn’t so that either.
How about simply forging all those, which all sound really condsending to begin with an saying something like, “I don’t agree with this but I agree when she said that…” or as you said, “I don’t agree with everything Erin is saying but there might be a kernel of truth somewhere in there.” Which comes back around to my original question of, “There’s got to be a better way to say that without comparing her to a dingbat is there?” I probably should have said something more direct like “Was it really necessary to insult her like that?” but that… Read more »
Fair enough Danny. 🙂 Sorry to give you a hard time. You’re intial reponse rubbed me a little the wrong way but I understand what you are now daying.
Cool.
One argument is that porn (and its increased ubiquity) has been a net positive influence on men and women from a hedonistic perspective. How? Increased orgasms, particularly from the latter group. Contrasted to 100+ years ago, I would venture that men and women today are able to know what it will take to achieve orgasm, and are more able to speak/express it. One may even argue that sex 100 years ago was uninteresting, probably most for women, because men didn’t know how to help their partner achieve orgasm (which is also dependent largely upon the woman’s mental/emotional state). Wonder why… Read more »
An ability to know what makes you achieve orgasm and speaking about it is not a by product of porn. There was a lot more going on in regards to female sexuality and not achieving orgasm then having a video to “show them the light”. There was general desrespect for women enjoying anything sexual because of social rules that women where constructed to live under back in the day. Porn didn’t give women this freedom. Women gave it to themselves for exploring their own sexuality. People can easily figure out their own sexuality without having to watch it and learn… Read more »
Is porn not the one medium where we see men performing oral sex on women? I know for me that I was first exposed to this through porn as a young man. I don’t want to get into the feminist-dominance/submission aspects of fellatio or cunnilingus, but I think that you ignore that men perhaps have become more skilled and more attentive lovers through their exposure to porn. Of course, balance is always key.
I have never before heard a man claim that he learned how to give good oral because of porn Chuck. Infact, I have heard a lot of women complain because porn gave men the wrong idea about what good oral was. I do not think porn has made men more skilled and attentive lovers. I think it’s made men more selfish, less attentive, and less skilled. This has been my personal experience with men. I’ve seen a change in men since porn has become increasingly more available and used like never before. And that change hasn’t been for the positive.… Read more »
Uh, I don’t know about that. Both my boyfriend and I had not watched porn until we got to college (he didn’t have any internet at home and I just wasn’t interested), but we both came to the shocking conclusion that tongue+clit=awesome before watching porn.
People are more creative without porn, honestly. I would seriously doubt that porn would be the impetus for making men think of giving oral.
Some links to back up some of my comments above:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/02/17/conservatives_bloggers_debate_whether_or_not_to_hold_their_own_to_their_own_prudish_standards_.html
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B7F23932-4A4E-4649-A192-38A7EB9DF36A
And this one, which is so over the top effed up, words fail me:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/02/virginia_ultrasound_law_women_who_want_an_abortion_will_be_forcibly_penetrated_for_no_medical_reason.html
How on earth did that one ever come to a vote?
You’re telling me PORN shames women when the Virginia state legislature wants to literally show something into your body to remind you what a dirty girl you’ve been because you now need to have an abortion.
Porn shames women?
I just don’t get it. But then again, there’s so much I just don’t get. It sucks being stoopid… Sigh…
I really have to link to a 400 or so message length thread on another board (a rather male friendly one) on how many men simply drop out of trying to date and be involved with women. But I can’t right now. Also, how does porn shame women, when it’s never really consumed in public or available for public portrayal? It’s mostly a private thing in a private realm, not a public one. By comparison, there is all kinds of public commentary on how creepy, disgusting, perverted, etc., etc., etc. the patrons of porn shops are in mainstream media, the… Read more »
My question: has access to faster, freer porn diminished the shame instinct? Yes and no. I think for some the shame instinct has diminished in the form of them being more open about the porn they are into and you can see this play out in how casually porn is talked about in order forms of media like sitcoms. On the other hand there are those whose shame instinct increased (probably over the increased fear of getting caught) resulting in hiding even further into the dark recesses of the internet, or at least the dark recesses of one’s computer. But… Read more »
Charlie you didn’t get out of the door until you made a grave error. You made unfounded assuptions. The first being that porn is an artifact of technology. That’s true only in the broadest contexts. What is true is that porn is the cutting edge of technology. 15,000 years ago it was little clay dolls. Two thousand years ago it was papryus scrolls. Ask any archeologist they come across tons of it every day. Erin your ideas are interesting but you have got to remember one thing.everyday more and more of the Internet Porn companies are run by women. Also… Read more »
Jimmy,
I say right in the first paragraph that porn is both a byproduct of technology and a technology-shaper. Porn increases in use as porn improves the ways in which it can be used. The VCR and the online pay system would not be what they are without porn.
James, Lets be hoenst about how many porn companies are owned and run by women vs how many porn companies are owned and run by men. Lets also be honest about what kind of porn most men will be watching. Porn made by women or porn made by men? I think the answer is obvious if you ask me. I am not going to get into a debate with you about romance novels and porn. I’ve heard this used as an example before and for many reasons, it does not ever fit into the puzzle for me. Lets stick to… Read more »
Chuck seems to think that the fact that we don’t have any accountability for the porn society is watching is making men (all of us?) less ashamed for our sexuality. I couldn’t disagree more. I think porn itself is doing a lot more to cause shame for real sexuality then help break us of any bondage from taboos of sexuality. I think there is an odd duality taking place right now where porn is more in the open but more shame of sexuality itself is taking place in larger amounts. Why do I think this? For one reason, there is… Read more »
To be fair, Erin, there is A LOT of porn that is not at all like you describe. I watch porn and the vast majority of what I find is not violent or aggressive. At worst, it is a little one-sided, with more focus on what the man wants. But I think internet porn is allowing for more variety, so while there may be violent, degrading porn, there is also more pleasant, couple-y porn. However, it seems like whatever website I go to always has ads for that one site I hate so so much which seems to always be… Read more »
Also, though I argue that violent, degrading porn is not as ubiquitous as it may seem, I will point out that porn which is violent and degrading is exclusively violent and degrading towards women. I have not encountered in any form a heterosexual porn clip that focuses on the acted-out rape of a man or focuses on his pain, as I have seen in ads for porn sites. Perhaps in the BDSM categories, but the clips that are violent and degrading to women are not just in BDSM categories, but just lumped as any other category (brunette, anal, groupsex, etc.).… Read more »
Artemis, we might have different opinions of what constitutes as degrading porn. However, despite that, I think we can agree that most porn isn’t exactly positive regardless of that. Whenever I’ve done my own research on this topic, it seems like A LOT of porn is exactly as I describe. And whenever I make this point, there is always a man that points out how he watches the “positive” kind of porn I fail to ever see from my searches online. I do agree that there is a certain among of variety of porn on the net. However, most women… Read more »
I will agree on your points. Though I will also point out that amateur porn normally has more variety than professionally produced porn, in terms of porn stars. But yes, on average, all the women are pretty much the same, which is the case in all forms of media/advertising/TV/movies, what have you. And yes, I am quite tired of it. And the titles are totally weird! I had sort of forgotten about that, as I just don’t look at them anymore. But you are right, that is a very degrading practice. You know, a lot of professional porn is as… Read more »
Well I would be interested to see what people are watching. I say it’s degrading, other’s say that’s not the kind they look at, but neither of us have a point of reference. I am very very curious about what people look at when they think no one is looking. Not just the stuff men or women pull out when they are going to be with their partners or when they are having a discussio nabout porn itself. The amateur porn stuff brings up a whole other bag. How many people do you reall think know there is a video… Read more »
Yeah, I’m sorry we are talking to each other in two different threads, I’m repeating myself a lot. I am sure that different people have different interpretations of what degrading is. It does suck that people are so ashamed of porn viewing that we can’t have an honest discussion about it. It would be more helpful it we knew what people actually watched and why. The questions on amateur porn I don’t really know any answers too. I suppose maybe they could be actors, but really the entire set-up and filming is pretty different, so enough if they are actors,… Read more »
I’m not familiar with ex-girlfriends sites. But I do wonder how many people know what is being posted of them. I suspect it’s something that women have doen to them more then men.
“Why do I think this? For one reason, there is more anger toward women cropping up in more porn. There are more overly dominate and humiliating depictions of sex going on in porn between men and women. And I don’t think that’s about sexual freedom so much as gender anger toward women. ” Is there? There’s all sorts of nasty variations of porn out there (S&M etc). Additionally, I can point out that there exists an uptick in the domination and humiliation of MEN cropping up more in porn. It seems to me you just have an axe to grind,… Read more »
Yes yes, we all know there are different kind of porn out there. We all know a small chunk of porn shows men being humilated. But I have never, in all my life, see men called names and debased in porn nearly as often as women are. I also am not sure how the fact that there is more porn that humilates men solves any kind of issue. I do have an axe to grind. I think we are getting sexuality all wrong as a society. I think porn has become way too overly inundated in our lives. I have… Read more »
An overwhelming majority of men watch “normal” porn and don’t watch porn to see women dehumanized. Men just want to get off; that’s it. You’re trying to bring exceptions into this conversation which is about the average man’s use of porn.
Chuck, I think the issue is not so much the intent of men, but what they are subconsciously picking up when they watch porn. Maybe sometimes it’s not bad, but maybe sometimes it is. If all the porn a man is watching is a woman masturbating, I don’t think he’s going to pick up anything bad from that. (my opinion) But even with normal porn, a man is going to start internalizing what he thinks “normal” sex is and may confirm his suspicion that sex really is all about what he wants. These are not intentions or conscious activities. Things… Read more »
I would generally advocate not watching porn until a person has already had sex, so that they can form their own opinions of what is normal and what they like during sex, but I don’t know if that’s possible anymore. :/ And even if it were possible for a person to “not watch porn until they have already had sex” you would basically be hinging their watching of porn on them performing an act with another person. In fact let me give an example. I was about 3 weeks shy of my 30th birthday before I performed my first sex… Read more »
Yeah, you are correct, I would definitely not say that a person should never be able to access porn. I was thinking more like… until mid-college or something. Getting some years in masturbating while fantasizing, I think that helps a person figure out what they like. And if a person has sex around college age, which is average, I think it works. But maybe in that case it is just a maturity thing.
So yes, it would have to be case-by-case. I would not apply it to your case, I’m sorry to didn’t really detail my logic there. :/
Chuck, how do you know what the average man is watching? When I look at porn, I see much more porn that is negative in it’s representation of sex and women then is positive. I naturally conclude that this is mostly what men are looking at. What is “normal” porn anyway? It does appear very much that plenty of men want to see women dehumanzied. Even punished in some way.
I’d ask you how you know that the average man is into porn which dehumanizes women? I think you’re checking out those sites with the intention of confirming your bias that porn is dehumanizing towards women. I’m not going to say that it shows women or men in a great light, but porn is mostly about getting off while watching two people have relatively kink-less sex. It’s pretty easy to discern which genres are most popular. The front page of the mainstream porn sites will show you that a straight man and a straight women doing the whole oral-oral-missionary-doggy-cumshot routine… Read more »
Also, I would like to point out that BDSM is not necessarily bad. I think it gets lumped in with bad categories. BDSM between consenting adults who both enjoy it is as healthy as any other sort of sexual activity. You can have rough sex in porn without it being dehumanizing. BUT some places decide to take rough sex into the “sex as punishment” form which is really disturbing. and it’s disturbing to me that ads for that show up on every porn website. (anyone want to take a guess of which website produces “sex as punishment” porn? I feel… Read more »
Not at all Chuck. I don’t specifically check any site. Whenever I’ve done this, I’ve simply gone to “google”, typed in “porn”, and clicked on the first link to come up. Within that first link, I don’t see positive porn. I don’t see porn that is about women and men being equals. I see mostly young women. Mostly women giving orla. Mostly women in doggy style. Mostly women being called four letter names. Lets stop pretending the industry treats men and women equally. Yeah, believe me, I get that porn is about getting off. But that no longer is enough… Read more »
WP, I pointed this out downthread: “Is there? There’s all sorts of nasty variations of porn out there (S&M etc). Additionally, I can point out that there exists an uptick in the domination and humiliation of MEN cropping up more in porn. ” S&M is not in itself nasty. Some people like rough sex, some people like being tied up and whipped or whatever. As long as both people like it, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it, so I wouldn’t characterize it as being nasty. However, the porn that shows domination of women or sex as punishment for… Read more »
I think if men want to do something, it must be OK, and we need to understand that they’re just following their hearts in doing it. We need to encourage that, and empower men in doing whatever their hearts tell them to do, because it’s good to follow your heart. Following your heart and being empowered makes you happy, as any embittered hostile elderly fat feminist will be happy to tell you after she’s done cleaning the litterboxes.
If that wasn’t enough to get me banned, I’ll be happy to take another swing at it.
Are men following their hearts when they look at porn?
Maybe you can try to understand why women may feel the way they do about porn and what they see happening with men and porn rather then chalk us all up to “embittered hostile elderly fat feminist”. And so what if a woman is fat or older or a feminist. Does this make her less of a person worth hearing an opinion from? Or do the only opinons that matter are from 21 year old women with perfect figures?
How much do you care about the opinions of overweight lonely comic guys with poor hygiene and no social skills? Not one bit, right? Right. Well, fair’s fair. Except I also don’t take much notice of the opinions of 21-yo hotties. Meanwhile, if your man prefers porn, maybe you’re making the same mistake the comic guys are making: If you want the opposite sex to drool over you, earn it. Be droolworthy. You can’t realistically demand attention when you offer nothing in return. The comic guys offer nothing that will ever interest a woman, and they wonder why they get… Read more »
I see your point here. But I have another one. Why is it that men are always being shamed for their sexuality? Meanwhile, when it comes to women, they have those in-house Tupperware-type gatherings for sex toy buying called “Passion Parties” with little or no shame there. This speaks to a larger issue of society shaming men for the same thing it celebrates in women. You’re looking at her semi-covered boobs? Pervert! Yet no one stops to think of the time and effort it took women to get those boobs set out like that to begin with. Considering the amount… Read more »
Days of Broke Arrows, I think women are constantly shamed about their sexuality. (I don’t know any women that are running around holding up the dildos they just purchased from a “Passion Party” either). We certainly experience shame. From the way our bodies should look to the actions we should be doing in the bedroom to be the elusive “fantasy” men seem to place on a pedestal over an average girl that the average girl wants to live up to in fear that he will be unhappy with her. Right now I can think of so many derogatory words that… Read more »
Erin, that was a very insightful comment. Porn is a very complex issue, especially for women. I wish men would try to be more understanding of how porn can make women feel entirely inadequate.
On a positive note, pretty much every man watches porn. Despite this, there are many men who are great and caring with sex because they do view porn as unrealistic and a less meaningful substitute for a real woman.
I think a part of reason we aren’t more understanding of women when it comes to porn is because of the insecurities that surround men and porn in the first place. Its hard for a guy to be understanding of women’s feelings when it comes to porn when he is engaging it under the premise that its a shameful act that one does in a dark corner. (Yeah you can “talk about porn” in a joking almost dismissive manner like talking about how “hawt lesbian porn is” but a real conversation about liking something that isn’t “approved” like porn with… Read more »
I do agree there is way too much shame placed on porn-viewing and masturbation. You are right that there is an assumption that people only masturbate if they can’t get a real person (which just isn’t true). I can see how that treatment would make men uncomfortable about talking about why women are uncomfortable with porn. Thanks for the insight, Danny.
Honestly, I think our society is generally ashamed of sexuality and it really inhibits honest conversation about porn and sex.
I do agree there is way too much shame placed on porn-viewing and masturbation. And it doesn’t help that even the people who call themselves wanting to know what men think about porn and why they watch it tend to respond less than respectfully when they get an answer that doesn’t subscribe to any predrawn conclusions they may be already carrying. And there some of those folks even in our midst on this site. As long we (men) keep it strictly to how somehow secretly don’t think very much or women or how we watching porn means we enjoy the… Read more »
“I wonder is there anything that’s built up as a defining part of being a woman that a woman would seek to fulfill it by any means possible no matter how dark and shameful that means is?” I think the closest women get to this experience is their menstrual cycle. I understand many/some women believe they are made to feel uniquely unclean relative to men for that feminine function. Even then, I don’t believe a perceived “dirty” body function rises to the same level of mind f*ck that the male sex drive imposes on its owner. I’d take the physical… Read more »
Correct me if I am wrong Artemis, but your post leaves me with the impression that you are minimizing my earlier comments because of all the, “many men who are great and caring with sex because they do view porn as unrealistic and a less meaningful substitute for a real woman.” Even if they are, this does nothing to address all the ways women are regularly and often shamed through porn. In my opinion, the “shame” that goes on is a bigger issue then the idea of inadequacy. Because inadequacy only comes into play after the shaming happens. People simply… Read more »
Well I wasn’t minimizing what you were saying, I was slightly disagreeing with you. My statement was more to say this: if 99% American men watch porn (I don’t know how many, but I think it’s fairly universal), then it’s a control factor. It is the thing they all have in common. And yet we see huge degrees of variety in men’s sexuality and in their treatment of women. So it does not seem accurate to say that porn influences all men equally, and would make all men not appreciate women as people, but as sex toys. Your last paragraph… Read more »
I hope by “pro-porn stance *we* have here”, you mean specifically this article and not the website itself Artemis. There have been a wide range of articles addressing the porn. GMP appears neither to be “pro” or “con” on the porn issue itself. I do get that there are many kinds of porn out there. However, my comments generally apply to the grand majority of what I see porn comprised of, and the grand majority of what I suspect men are watching when no one is looking. And I will tell you why I think this: simply because the grand… Read more »
I guess without any actual research into what guys are watching, we would just have to make assumptions if they are watching good/bad/whatever porn. I think your assumption that watching porn will change sexual behavior is not a universal fact. I will say it is definitely true for many people who watch porn (and the homogenization of sexual behavior is a serious turnoff, no one likes a person who lacks creativity in the bedroom), but not all. I would find it much more plausible that men who watch porn earlier in their lives, before any non-solo sexual activity, would be… Read more »
My assumption isn’t that watching porn WILL change sexual behavior, but that it already has. Statistically, on average, a boy sees his first porn between the ages of 9-11. So I would safely bet that a great majority of the young men today see porn before they actually have sex, before they actually figure out they like independent from porn. My guess that it’s been like that since the early 90s and has exponentially grown as technology has grown. Which would make boys that grew up in the 80s and beyond, have a different perspective on sexuality then men from… Read more »
“Right now I can think of so many derogatory words that are used regularly to shame women for their sexuality. I can’t think of as many that do the same to men” Erin, ever heard of the word “pervert”. I think women have it both ways on the sex front. I would agree that there is definitely a traditional perspective that holds women solely responsible for sex and shames female sexuality in an effort to keep it scarce. But, there is also a progressive, dare I say feminist, perspective that is as equally vociferous in celebrating female sexuality and seeking… Read more »
These conversations appear to be more like pissing contests about who has it worse then a real attempt to understand each other. I responded to share how as a woman, you can feel shamed for who she is in comparison to the things men often enjoy. You can take from that what you will. You can either acknowledge I said it and think about it, or look for points to argue with me about who has it worse. I don’t remember the last time, if ever, I saw a female centric media form where women were getting off and masturbating… Read more »
“I don’t remember the last time, if ever, I saw a female centric media form where women were getting off and masturbating to men being called “perverts” or other names” Well…that…actually does exist, but I’ll return to that later. In the spirit of understanding your perspective, if there existed a medium that encouraged women to take sadistic pleasure at say, news reels of Serbian soldiers pulling unarmed men and boys from buses and gunning them down in cold blood or images of young American conscripts lying maimed and wounded in Vietnam, then yes, me and every man on this site… Read more »
I agree with most of the article. However, the author misses one of the advantages of using porn instead of hookers or pick-ups. Freedom from disease exposure.
Unfortunately, there is a popularity of “bare-back” videos available. I wonder if this satisfies a need since it is merely virtual. Or does it create a desire to have un-protected sex by its repetition?
You know what else causes shame in Men Chuck? Having to rely on porn to self Medicate feelings of inadequacy and loneliness. As long as Rape statistics are on a downward spiral, I don’t see the point obsessing on the lack of social interactions of Men U seem to consider “junkies, lowlifes, and other salty characters.”
You sound condescending and sanctimonious but good luck on your crusade.
budmin, I don’t think that porn is something that only men with a lack of social interactions deal with. Most men use porn in varying degrees, and I believe that many of these men are faced with feelings of shame and guilt over its use. This is especially true when those men are in relationships. Hiding these things or slinking off to a porn store merely reinforces those already-existing feelings of guilt and shame. I didn’t mean to come off as condescending in this article. I just wanted to hit home on the feeling that shopping in a porn store… Read more »
It seems that you haven’t given fear of women a fair observation as a possible cause of porn addiction or shame. Me personally, I have never felt ashamed of going to the red light districts of New York City. From 1994-1997 going to “Naked City” was like going to the Doctor. The pain I felt came from not believing that I was good enough for ANY woman period! That I couldn’t protect them, I couldn’t provide enough wealth for them, I couldn’t stop them from cheating on me, I couldn’t satisfy them in Bed.. That’ Real shame, & it’s present… Read more »
budmin,
I don’t want to discount that aspect of it, but I’m writing more to the men who infuse porn into their lives because they just happen to like porn. And from that there are perhaps feelings of shame and guilt from its use. I don’t believe that men usually use porn because of feelings of inadequacy. I think it just provides a quick stimulus. It’s like a drug, and I guess it has two different components to it as well. Some people use drugs because they don’t feel worthy; others use drugs just because they enjoy the high.
I gave up shame over porn about a decade ago. Nowadays, I have boxes of porn that I never look at (burned a lot of DVD’s back in the day) and have a drive or two full of the stuff. I tell women up front I enjoy porn and it ain’t going away. If they can’t handle it, that’s their problem. Society needs to grow the eff up. I have no intention of denying my enjoyment of the female form and sexuality. I can be monogamous and enjoy these things. I will feel no shame and to hell with all… Read more »