Just because your partner isn’t saying “no,” Hugo Schwyzer writes, it doesn’t mean it’s a “yes.”
Note: As with many articles about sexual violence, particularly those that include anecdotes, this may prove triggering for some.
“Sometimes I say ‘yes’ when I’d rather say ‘no.’”
It’s been nearly 25 years, but I can still remember the beautiful Berkeley fall afternoon when I heard those shattering words. Katie and I were sitting in a coffee shop just off campus. What had started as a “friends with benefits” situation had blossomed into a sophomore year romance with this dark-eyed dance-and-philosophy double-major. Katie and I had been sleeping together for more than two months—and saying “I love you” for about a week—when she summoned up the courage to bring up this one very painful truth.
At first, I didn’t know what she meant. She spoke so softly I had to lean across the table to hear her. “I don’t want to hurt your feelings,” she said, “but sometimes I really don’t want to have sex. Sometimes I do, but not as often as you want it. And sometimes I want to tell you ‘no,’ but I can’t bring myself to do it. So I try and send you signals, hoping you can just tell how I’m feeling. But that doesn’t work, so it’s… it’s just easier to say ‘yes’ or just say nothing at all.”
My face flushed. I felt nauseated. I thought instantly of the previous night, where we’d grabbed what I thought was a hot half-hour when my roommates were both gone. Katie had seemed so passionate when we’d been making out, but then gotten very quiet once all our clothes were off. I’d told myself she wanted to have one ear cocked for the sound of a key in the door. I hadn’t considered—or hadn’t wanted to consider—the more obvious possibility: she was trying to tell me that she didn’t want to have sex.
I looked out the window. I couldn’t meet Katie’s eyes. My gaze fixed in the distance, my voice trembling, I asked what seemed the only possible question: “Are you trying to tell me I raped you?”
I was in my first women’s studies course, and just the previous week we’d been reading about sexual violence and the law. In class, where I was one of only three men, I’d felt rage thinking about all of those cruel assholes who didn’t understand that “no means no.” But now a dark and unseen possibility was opening up: not every “no” could be spoken. Maybe, I realized, sometimes even a quiet “OK” could be a “no” in disguise.
Katie started to cry. “Oh God, Hugo. No. Not rape. It’s just… I wish you could tell the difference between when I really want you and when I’d just rather be held.” She began to cry harder. “Fuck. It’s all my fault,” she wept. “I can’t expect you to be a mindreader. I’m so sorry.”
I begged Katie not to apologize; the responsibility was all mine, I insisted. I came around to her side of the table and held her. But something had changed for both of us, and the relationship was never the same. The one time we tried to have sex after that conversation, we were both so tentative (and I had, not surprisingly, a difficult time getting hard) that we gave up halfway through. We broke up two weeks before Christmas.
♦◊♦
Most “good guys” take a woman’s firm “No!” for an answer. (Those who don’t are best left to the ministrations of our criminal justice system.) But lots of men are like the guy I was at 19—assuming that while “no means no” anything short of a firm “no” is either a “yes” or a “keep at it, boy, because you just might get a ‘yes’ soon.” Call it male sexual legalism, the first rule of which is “All that is not expressly prohibited is assumed to be permitted.” That legalism can turn many men into accidental rapists.
While the legal standard of rape is increasingly well-defined (and what happened with Katie fell well short of that legal definition), common sense suggests that at its most basic, rape is nonconsensual sex. Too many of us, men and women alike, define consent as the absence of a clear “no,” rather than the presence of a clear, unmistakable, eager “yes.” The opposite of rape, in other words, is mutual enthusiasm.
The root of consent is the Latin consentire, which means “with feeling.” Consent is not just about words “no” or “yes”—it’s about the unambiguous presence of desire. That’s a very different and challenging standard. No, I didn’t legally rape Katie. But her reticence and my sexual legalism conspired to leave us having sex that at least some of the time fell well short of the standard of consent we should all want in our intimate lives.
I’m not putting all the blame on myself, or on men alone. It’s not fair to expect men to read minds, or even to perfectly intuit subtle body language. As I tell the teens with whom I work, a precondition for being ready for a sexual relationship is having the courage to say a firm “No” to the people you love. Overcoming the training to be an acquiescent people-pleaser is hard-but-necessary work, and because of the way we socialize girls, difficulty with saying “no” tends to be much more common among young women.
But guys have work to do also. Too many play what I call the stoplight game. Traffic signals, of course, have three colors: red for stop, yellow for caution, green for go. Good drivers are taught to stop on “red,” which functions as a “no.” But of course, even at the busiest urban intersections, no light stays red indefinitely. If you wait long enough at a stoplight, every red will become green. And when all we do is teach young men that “no means stop” when it comes to sexual boundaries, we often send them the message that if they just wait long enough (or pester, push, nag, beg, play passive-aggressive games) they’ll get the “green light” they’re so hungry for.
In both traffic and the bedroom, the most misunderstood light is yellow. Though driver’s ed classes teach that yellow means “slow down,” most of us see it as a warning to speed up to get through the intersection before the light turns red. Sexually speaking, the yellow means what it ought to mean on the road: “slow down, son.”
♦◊♦
Most of us are good at saying “no” to something or someone we don’t like. Most (sadly, not all) find it easy to flash the red light at a creepy guy who doesn’t interest them at all. But it’s tougher to say “not yet, I’m not quite ready” or “slow down” or “maybe later” to someone to whom you’re genuinely attracted. Reflecting on the sex Katie and I had so often, I realized that she often felt rushed and pressured to go to intercourse every time. She knew how to tell me when she wasn’t in the mood to do anything sexual at all, which was when she could “flash the red light.” But on those not-infrequent occasions when she wanted to make out and “fool around” but nothing more—she had no vocabulary for that. And over and over again, I took her reticence as a sign to “try harder” rather than to slow down. The blame for that rested on both of us.
Determining what another person really wants isn’t as easy as it should be. It’s further complicated by the reality that many women (and more than a few men) want to make their partners feel good—even if they don’t desire sex itself. Distinguishing between the desire to be desired, the desire to please a partner, and the desire for sex itself isn’t easy for any of us. Sometimes we need to do more than talk about what we want—we also need to clarify for ourselves and our lovers why we want it. That’s not easy, but it’s essential. We deserve that clarity.
Katie and I lived on different sides of campus; we each walked home separately from that devastating conversation in the café. I remember the guilt and the sadness I felt on that walk, but I also remember the determination I felt. I liked sex—I loved sex—but I knew I’d rather never have it again than have it with someone who was only doing it to soothe me, to please me, or because she couldn’t find the words to say “no” or “not now.” To the best of my imperfect ability, even at my most promiscuous, I have sought to live up to that promise I made to myself on the long walk home through the Berkeley streets.
I knew I hadn’t committed any crime. But the sense of sadness—tinged with disgust—at what Katie and I had conspired to allow to happen made me feel very much like an accidental rapist. Years of working with other men around issues of consent and sexuality have taught me I’m not the only one to have felt those feelings.
We all deserve better.
—Photo kainr/Flickr
About Hugo Schwyzer
G.L.Piggy is correct. the word rape has legal implications. You can’t use the word and expand it beyond the legal context. It is like saying I murdered someone that was breaking into my house and threatening my life. It is not murder. It is a legal killing.
What you did was not rape in any way, shape, or accidental form. Rape has a legal meaning that hinges on consent. You had your consent. End of story.
Accidental rapist? Thats quite a leap.
Anyways its amazing how society depicts the average male as this sexually starved animal. Some women take a hold of these views and the minute you turn them down.. they turn vile and flagrant.. They are surprised that every erection isnt an invitation to sexual pleasure. They are surprised that a man will has the will power to refuse sex… and so this same women might take it as a personal insult. Im sure this happens in the later stages of life when women reach their sexual peak and the sexual urges of men(on average) are on the decline.
Ummm, yeah, I thought it would be improper to bring up a prostitution reference here, but seriously, it still applies. It’s the most honest services transaction. I pay you so I can have sex with your body. Such honesty is refreshing. Assuming no coercion, the yes is honestly given. Deed is done, cash changes hands.
It’s beautiful in its simplicity and honesty.
As compared to the convoluted mess Hugo is talking about.
God, I’m glad that I’m generally past the stage of being an inconsiderate jerk, willing to jerk off than have sex with the sweet one and have figured out this particular minefield of male female relationships.
As for those commenting on the legalities of this, I warn the men, get consent as it is defined in law. It doesn’t matter what you personally (or she personally for that matter) thinks consent is. Consent as defined in law is what it is. Hugo’s situation could have landed you in jail. Sad but true. As a young lad, you might be best to get it in writing with the nitty gritty details (oral, some anal touching, breasts, but knees are strictly off the table). Yeah, sounds ridiculous, but that’s the law (at least where I am).
There’s more than a few hombres sitting in the clink because the communications were all FUBARed. Lousy situation, but only males face legal liability so get it in writing (or make it a contractual relationship where everyone knows what the deal is).
Sigh… Such is life.
I cannot “guess”. I must have a 100% guarantee. I don’t give a shit if there are “no guarantees in life” I want a goddamn 100% guarantee that I will be safe. As a disabled person I am afraid that I must demand this or I will pull away. NO DEAL.GET IT?? Not my loss here if I pull away, I am aafer staying home where no body can hurt me.
Rape has to be binary. Blurring the term of consent is incredibly problematic. By terming this an “accidental rape” Hugo basically made Katie into a rape victim who was complicit in her own rape.
I feel badly for both Hugo and Katie here. Sex is a powerful thing. Both of them were hurt and its a shame they couldn’t work through it. Striving for open communcation is incredibly important but don’t play with a very loaded word like “rape” in order to make a point.
I’m a little distressed by the comments I see here. I think Hugo says very clearly what is at the heart of the issue of consent: that women sometimes don’t know how to say no and that the word “no” is not the only way in which humans communicate an unwillingness to engage in sexual activity. Unfortunately, we teach men to go after sex, to push and push until they get ‘it’. Conversely, we teach women not to be too assertive in relationships, that a woman assumes a passive role in sexual activity, that you aren’t supposed to refuse your man. It may seem old fashioned thinking but even today’s teens have to deal with these same sexual gender scripts.
And women who find themselves in situations where they give signals, even go so far as saying no but do not fight or forcefully protest, end up blaming themselves and feeling tremendous conflict for having been pressured into sex when they would rather not have, even if at some other time they may have said yes. What so they do then? Is it rape? Is it not rape? Is it just even if it can be proved illegal? What recourse does she have? What is the effect on her psychological and physical well being?
Please stop treating us women like little children. We are full human beings with all the rights and responsibilities as men , people believe they are doing the right thing by laying the entire blame on themselves like Hugo did when in fact he is essentially saying his ex was just a little child who didn’t have the courage or maturity to speak up.
AND THEN PEOPLE WONDER WHY SOME MEN NEVER RESPECT WOMEN.
About to say that myself!
Look…the issue of communication is different from rape. I think as a society, we need to teach ourselves about how to discuss sex in all its varieties BEFORE we engage in it. There are certain aspects of kink I enjoy…but each aspect has to be clearly discussed BEFORE any actions occur. There’s nothing unsexy about talking about what you’re looking for in a sexual encounter. In fact, you can whet each others appetite and know that this is what both of you want. And if all it turns out to be is cuddling on the couch, so what enjoy! If you think you’re adult enough to have sex, then saying no to a specific act, or a specific time should not be a problem. How do people talk about pregnancy or stds if they can’t even say “honey, I only have the energy for a heavy make out session”.
It ties in with the inability to find satisfying sex…talk about it!
Yes, we are full human beings, but our culture does not respect women’s inherent human rights. So I take issue with your statement that we have the same rights and responsibilities as men.
If the United States ever ratifies the Equal Rights Amendment and the Supreme Court puts sex discrimination on the same level as race discimination, then I will start agreeing that women have the same rights and responsibilites as men.
Until then, we’re still in a patriarchy.
So why is it that “patriarchy” is such a semantic stop-sign? It’s a dirty word, to you, clearly. The reality is, nature made men to lead. We’re larger, more physically powerful, more aggressive due to hormonal differences. That’s not to say we’re better, but just to say that men are more naturally inclined to become the leaders of the so-called ‘patriarchy’ that you attempt to vilify here. Women may not have the same rights as men, but neither the expectations nor responsibilities that are placed upon men.
So, might makes right, huh? Don’t think so. If that were true, the larger the man, the more powerful he would be. Physical power is not generally necessary in today’s intellectual arena. And women are every bit as intellectually capable as men are.
Women are just as equipped by nature to lead as men are. It’s patriarchal conditioning that has made some (such as yourself) fail to see that. And yes, “patriarchy” is a very bad thing.
Also, I don’t know what world you live in where women don’t have the expectations or responsibilities that are placed on men. I would say they have many more than men do. It’s about damn time their rights catch up.
Marie, I apologize. I’m Canuck and history went down a little different here.
I refuse to play the who’s got it worse game. So while women haven’t got all the rights of men, 3evo says we don’t have the responsibilities. As far as the men have might and therfore the right…well there are societies which are matriarchal, see how much laughter you generate with that thinking.
As adult human beings, each of us has the responsibility to take care of ourselves. When it comes to sex, women need to speak up when they don’t want it, or don’t want a specific act. There were no significant power differences between Hugo and his girlfriend. So calling patriarchy is overstating things.
Janet, do you always have the courage to speak up? When female friends brag about being so assertive, I can usually remember times when they were very subservient to the men in their lives.
Hugo, you’re a rapist. That she didnt bring charges is beside the point. She didnt give consent. Another unreported rape, another rapist walks free. Shame on you.
If she kept participating, she gave consent. She was reluctant. I’m reluctant about all sorts of things I consent to. Calling someone a violent criminal because they weren’t as carefully tuned in to someone’s reluctance — not refusal or failure to consent — is morally preposterous. Expecting a grown-up who is conscious and in full control of their faculties to say no is a reasonable expectation on Hugo’s part.
Hugo,
a powerful and eloquent piece, thank you.
I pondered the story for some time, and one thing that struck me was your disgust at the things that had happened. Surely, had you known her feelings then, you would not have had sex with her on the occasions she did not want to (as, you say, most good guys do, and I think that should generally be an ‘all’). So, she withheld information from you that would cause you to revoke your consent to having sex. Now my question is the following: did she accidentally rape you (in the ethical, not in the legal sense)?
No, I do not think she accidentally raped Hugo (in the ethical sense). This sounds like the false parallel technique of defending male dominance.
I’m sorry, I did not intend to create an equivalence and should have expressed myself more clearly. Of course they are not equivalent, but I think they share some similarities. Both are bad and do not justify each other.
I would feel violated if someone got me to have non-consensual sex with them by lying (even by omission). I’d say this should rather argue against dominance and for communication.
Thaddeus’s power of clairvoyance is truly astounding -
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/love-hate-rage-and-therapy/
Thaddeus Gregory Blanchette says:
August 14, 2011 at 11:02 am
The way Hugo is “unfolding” and revealing himself to The Good Men Project’s readers, like some sort wierd tropical flower, I’m wondering if we won’t soon be hearing confessions, on his part, to date rape.
God forbid, Hugo, that you actually might look at the woman who says this to you and reply with something like ” You know, darling…..you are (presumably) an adult, and are (presumably) not intellectually or verbally compromised in such a way that would prevent you from opening your mouth and saying ‘Not tonight Hugo’. ” Why on earth do you not hold the woman accountable for making the CONSCIOUS CHOICE to have sex when she doesnt really want to? Why do YOU absorb the blame and cast women into the role of not having the effing BRAINS to be able to say no?
Im angry Hugo, and mostly, Im angry because you have put me in the utterly loathsome position of having to defend YOU from YOURSELF
It is kinda gross isn’t it?
Thanks for that comment Natasha! That was without a doubt the best one of the day! No doubt about it!
And I’m angry at you, Natasha. Believe it or not, all of us are affected by patriarchy. Verbally attacking a woman who had sex when she didn’t want to do it is very abusive.
Natasha, have you ever have sex with a man when you really didn’t want to do it? Have you ever had sex with a man just to “keep the peace” in the relationship? Our culture teaches us to do that sort of thing and any woman who thinks she hasn’t been affected by it is lying to herself.
Were you affected by the patriarchy when wrote this post? Funny how people who act like women have no agency often blame an omnipotent patriarchy.
If a women has sex with a women in order to “keep the peace” in their relationship. Then that is still a choice.
Marie
“Natasha, have you ever have sex with a man when you really didn’t want to do it? Have you ever had sex with a man just to “keep the peace” in the relationship? Our culture teaches us to do that sort of thing and any woman who thinks she hasn’t been affected by it is lying to herself.”
And what about men that are raped in relationships.
Real rape, not the type Hugo is describing affects men in relationships with women as often as it does women with men.
http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/2011/05/predictors-of-sexual-coercion-against.html
Seems a mans right to consent and a womans ability to rape is invisible to you. So its you that is upholding patriarchy, women are pure,men as sinister right?
How does that fit into your patriarchy conspiracy theory?
@Marie-
I didnt verbally attack the woman in the story, I verbally attacked Hugo.
I verbally attacked him for being unnecessarily self-effacing and self blaming when really, a response like “I never intended for you to feel that way, of course I dont want you to have sex with me if you dont want to, why didnt you say anything?” would have been far more appropriate…and not obviated the woman of her responsibility.
This title was misleading, this was not rape, this was REGRET SEX and regret sex is NOT RAPE. She has a responsibility to herself – nevermind the guy shes fucking – to be a better custodian of her own sexuality, *when it is within her power to do so* (that last bit added to prevent rape crazy people from assuming Im accusing women of being irresponsible when they are ACTUALLY raped…that is different).
Women DO have an obligation to themselves, and to their partners, to not have sex when they dont want to. Own your shit, including your sex. I know its an amazingly mature and difficult thing to ask some people to do, but do it you must.
Actually, its not that novel of an idea
If you dont want to have sex……dont have sex
And Marie…..no, I have NEVER EVER, in all the years I have been sexually active, had sex when I didnt want to. I would never CHOOSE to have sex in order to “keep the peace”. I dont believe its healthy, and I wouldnt ever do that to myself or my partner. If its not mutual, its not good.
For the record, being “affected” by the patriarchy, is NOT the same thing as divorcing oneself of all personal responsibility, throwing up your hands and saying “but Im just a poor helpless woman with no choices or power, theres nothing I can do against a big strong man” which is EXACTLY what you are saying Marie….that we are all helpless victims in the face of this ‘patriarchy’
Youre welcome to it, I refuse
Why doesn’t he have a responsibility to wait for a “yes”?
Why is it super easy to expect women to say “no” to a loved one.
Why is it super demanding to expect men not to touch sexually until they hear a “yes”?
All the comments seem to be ignoring that she didn’t say “yes” and if we just had an expectation that a man waits for a “yes” most of this would be sovled. But god forbid we expect men to do something that might make it more difficult for them to have sex.
Anona
I trust you never have sex unless you have got a verbal yes even though other forms of none verbal communication are transmitting yes, otherwise that would make you a hypocrite.
Grow up, there is no patriarchy, you are expected to be as adult as we are now.
@Anona:
“Why doesn’t he have a responsibility to wait for a “yes”?”
I believe many things about Hugo, and rarely is one of them good…but I have no doubt that if she had actually said anything remotely approaching no, like “hold on” or “i need to stop for a second” or even a much more clear and to the point “Sorry babe, I really dont want to go any further than this” or just a plain old “Hugo, stop”….I wholeheartedly believe he would have done as she asked. He doesnt seem like the type that would aggressively coerce….and thats neither a compliment or an insult, so dont go getting all excited Hugo.
The truth is, men do wait for yes…or at least they wait for no. I think that it would be tedious and unrealistic to think that men (or women) patiently sit and wait after each “move” to be flagged in. Foreplay takes a natrual progression…sometimes it stops at kissing, sometimes at petting, sometimes it goes further….especially if no one says no, and all signs (like “oh fuck me”) indicate yes.
“Why is it super easy to expect women to say “no” to a loved one.”
~Why is it super hard to treat a woman like a grown up who CAN?
“Why is it super demanding to expect men not to touch sexually until they hear a “yes”?”
~it’s not, no one said it was. most men do not run around playing touchie feelie with strangers who dont give consent. Even within relationships they dont do this, most couples know each other’s “go signs” and behave accordingly. My partner knows how to read me, and im not going to stop at every touch and say “yes, you may continue” i mean come ON
We DO have an expectation that PEOPLE, not just men, but PEOPLE wait for consent….but what you dont seem to understand is that consent can be given in more ways than just verbally.
“Natasha, have you ever have sex with a man when you really didn’t want to do it? Have you ever had sex with a man just to “keep the peace” in the relationship?”
Wow men really are invisible to feminists. Did it ever occur to you Maria that men have sex with women just to “keep the peace” in a relationship. Its actually quite common and its exacerbated by the fact that men are expected to always want sex, so if you reject sex a woman thinks something must be VERY wrong or that you don’t desire her. This of course implies that many many men have been accidentally “raped” by women.
There are other things that are also invisible like the fact that men do not always enjoy sex, sometimes we fake orgasms to please our partners etc. But men are supposed to be responsible for not just our own pleasure but for hers as well. Which means if the sex is bad for us then its because we are dysfunctional. And if the sex is bad for her its because we aren’t good lovers.
When a woman can’t get wet its blamed on the man…insufficient foreplay. When a man can’t get it up its blamed on the man….sexual dysfunction. Nobody ever says to the woman that she should have engaged in more foreplay or found ways to turn him on.
Marie, Ive responded to this, but its in moderation, presumably because I used the word sh_t….
Hopefully it will be up soon
Let’s take a closer look at the definition of patriarchy…its the silent and invisible underpinning of our culture in which BOTH genders can uphold or enable. His girlfriend was upholding the patriarchy when she permitted herself to have sex with Hugo at a time she did not want it. There were no significant power differences between them, which should have made it a simple matter to speak her mind.
Natasha, if a woman doesn’t feel free enough to say no, the man has to ask himself, “How have I contributed to this situation? How can I let a woman know that she doesn’t have to have sex with me to keep the relationship going?”
Remember, it takes two and just blaming the woman is very male chauvinistic.
So men have to take responsibility for their own sexual behaviors, choices and proclivities AND those of their partner? Why do women have no responsibility in your world?
Ah yes…..ze patriarchy
Thanks Natasha. I’m loving it! Keep it up! Woman have brains, personhood and agency too. They can use them. Even while having sex. Even when they’re young (granted, it’s harder, just like it is for males, but they can do it too!).
“if a woman doesn’t feel free enough to say no, the man has to ask himself, “How have I contributed to this situation? How can I let a woman know that she doesn’t have to have sex with me to keep the relationship going?”
Again I feel the need to speak up for the invisible man. Switch the genders in the statement above. This statement applies much more strongly to men than women. Its often men having sex with women to keep the relationship going. Worse with men is that they can’t really express this because they will often get overblown reactions from women who have come to expect that men are sex machines.
Yeah it does take two to tango doesn’t it? So what, in your world, is her part in this? Does she bear no responsibility? If she doesn’t have the ability to assert herself and say “no, i don’t want to do this right now” Then frankly, she’s not emotionally mature enough to be having sex in the first place.
Grow up marie.
Hugo
Your trigger warning triggered me because I am a victim of sexual violence, then I read your piece and found that it contains no sexual violence, so you used the trigger warning inappropriately and just for effect,and so triggered me for no good reason.
Asshat
Ron, I hope you’re joking. If not then, with respect, if you really can’t cope with even a warning that there might be a trigger without being triggered, you should not be reading articles about rape. I have many many friends with PTSD who have to deal with the triggers of their PTSD (war, usually) on a daily basis; that does not mean that they should go looking for articles about war and then get angry because someone trying to be considerate warned them inappropriately.
Hugos not trying to be considerable, he is exploiting the trigger warning system in an attempt to define not rape, as rape.
Ron I for one hope you are joking because I find the whole concept of trigger warnings idiotic and laughable bullshit.
I usually like Hugo’s articles, but this one is just painful. The term ‘rape’ being used in this context is really, truly awful.
The only time that ‘yes’ is not acceptable as a form of consent is when a person, for whatever reason, is unable to consent. For example: mentally handicapped people, children, people who have been drugged, and people with guns at their heads. Aside from that, a freely given yes is the standard of consent. Whether or not a ‘yes’ has pep to it doesn’t have any impact on if a rape occurred.
Yes, there are plenty of social reasons why a woman who is not enthusiastic about sex would consent. If a guy has any reason (body language, previous discussions, etc.) to think that these are coming into play, most decent men would stop and check to see what’s up before going forward. That’s just basic respect for someone.
But unless there is some reason to think that there’s a problem with the situation, I don’t see why any guy should feel even partially responsible. I’m sure I’m not the only one who was pretty confused when Hugo took FULL responsibility for what happened. If you want to label situations like that as unpleasant or unfortunate, or say that you wish you had done something different, be my guest. But defining something like that as rape is just so many shades of wrong.
Because hugo’s brand of feminism is very patriarchial and patronising. it infantilises women. you just finally seeing it.
reread his articles through the lens of your post
There was no “yes”.
Now that we have this expanded definition of rape to include the Accidental rapist category – we’ve officially reached the azimuth of rape prevalence. I’ve just computed that 12 out of every 10 men will commit a rape in their lifetime. I’m struggling with this statistic a bit, as mathematically, this means that men who will never be born are also to be counted as rapists – the unborn rapist.
What a very sad and stupid article. The author does not represent anything I feel or think. I’ll deal with my regrets and failings as such. Thank you very much.
Thanks for writing this. This truly speaks to my experience. Sometimes it is so difficult to say “no” – someones I’m not even sure what I want and when you’re already in the middle of hooking up with someone it’s impossible to bring up that emotional mess of uncertainty without completely killing the mood. And what happens next does feel rape-y. But it’s even more complex because you don’t want to blame the guy since you never really said anything. Guys are socialized to “keep trying” the same way girls are socialized to be pleasing. It is a shitty situation for everyone , but hopefully, if we start talking about it, things will improve.
Guys aren’t just “socialized to keep trying”. Guys go for sex because men, generally speaking, like to have sex with women they are sexually attracted to. Sure, a small part of this is socialization—but it is overwhelmingly biology. A lot of our culture—with regard to gender—just reinforces our biological dispositions.
Why is this so hard to accept?
Women have as much a a biological drive to have sex as men. It’s the stigma that a woman who enjoys sex is a slut and a guy who is not getting any is less of a man that create the issues in the article. It’s society that has taught you women don’t want sex as much as men and men need to pursue and persuade women to get the sex they want. Most gender roles are not based in biology that’s why society needed to create and enforce strict rules to make people fall in line with gender norms. If it was just biology those rules and penalties that exist for breaking them wouldn’t exist.
have you ever masturbated 6 times in one day? have you ever masturbated in a wave pool? have you ever masturbated in your grandmother’s house? have you ever driven 6 hours just for the possibility that you might get to have sex? are you thinking about sex right now? have you ever bought something for someone hoping that they’ll have sex with you? have you ever taken someone on a date with the sole goal in mind of having sex with said date?
Yes. No. No. No. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Also, I’ve never been IN a wave pool, my grandma died before I hit puberty, and I live in a town that’s a 30 minute drive from one end to the other, so those “nos” don’t even count.
*one end to the other on the ONLY road.
Sorry for the triple comment.
For clarity’s sake Rabbit, are you male or female?
i gotta guess male. i don’t know many women who pay for dinner or a date with the express purpose of getting laid.
I have paid for dinners ect just to get laid. And I can answer yes to all but the wave pool.
Female. There wouldn’t be any point to answering his questions otherwise, since clearly those are situations that apply to ALL males, and to males ONLY. :p
“i gotta guess male. i don’t know many women
who pay for dinner or a date with the express purpose of getting laid.” FTFY.Also, I didn’t actually realize it was possible for a man to have six orgasms in one day. The more you know!
Of course, women have a biological urge to have–and enjoy–sex. But it has been proven with study after study after study that men desire sex with greater frequency than women. It is this asymmetry that animates much of the goings-on in the sexual marketplace. No one is saying that women don’t want sex, only that they are generally satisfied having it less often than men are.
Do you deny that this asymmetry exists? Are you telling me that having 11 times as much testosterone is meaningless? Are you sentient?
Upon reading, I found myself disagreeing with the author on various points.
Would you call a man in a FWB situation that misreads his partner’s body signals a rapist, and ask him to be sent to jail for committing an atrocious act of violence, and to be permanently branded amongst his peers? You say it’s not fair yourself, and I don’t think it’s reasonable nor responsible (as per above situation) to think as such. As such, the rhetoric of “rape” is drastically overblown to the point of sensationalism that undermines most of the important message.
Second, mostly on substance, I disagree with your views on In my mind, this relates strongly to the task of household chores in a married couple. A guy may not want to clean the kitchen, but he can do it anyway if it makes his wife happy. The appropriate reaction is appreciative, not guilt. If someone wants to make you happy, it would only obfuscate joy by refusing what is done. I believe that the same applies to sex. If a woman doesn’t want sex, but wants to make the guy happy, I don’t think that creating guilt is the appropriate response. Ultimately this view adapted into modern view disempowers women, because men can do favors for women (like cleanliness that she values but he doesn’t) but it can’t be reciprocated. [While this example may play on certain stereotypes, I don't think it's far-fetched to say men desire sex more often (as per the article) and saying women can't provide favors is just an extent of one poor aspect behind chivalry.]
Beyond those two (admittedly nitpicky) details, I think that the overall message that couples should open pathways of communication is important. If there’s a lack of communication, it can easily end up with both people uncomfortable, and is not healthy for the relationship nor for either person involved.
Well said.
They had women’s studies in 1984?
Thanks for this Hugo. I think it speaks not necessarily to rape as defined as a criminal act but to the lack of communication–or the difficulty of communicating–across gender lines about sex specially when youth and hormones are in full blossom. As usual there are plenty of comments here worth ignoring, but I thank you for bringing up a real topic and forcing us all to think more carefully about it. I was thinking what Leah was saying that it must be hard for women to say “No” when they don’t necessarily know what they want and equally hard for men to hear “No” when a women isn’t being particularly clear about it. I recall one particular date I had years ago with a woman who seemed to like me and I her. I was driving I asked her whether she wanted to come home to my house or would prefer to end the date and go home. Her answer was so unclear, I am sure because of the bluntness of my question, that I honestly didn’t know what to do. I think that is what is you are talking about. Giving women the right to say No whenever they want for whatever reason. And for men to hear that clearly. Frankly the worst kind of sex is when one party is going through he motions in my mind. So I for one would rather not have sex at all unless the person I am with is actually excited to be with me. Call me old fashioned that way.
all fine and good, Tom. but do you agree with the language Hugo used to get this point across?
Good Lord Tom…..
You’re *thanking* Hugo for “Giving women the right to say No whenever they want for whatever reason.” ?!?!? He’s not giving anything…we already have it ffs. You want to talk about male entitlement, look at the pair of you!
This article is so patronizing of women that Im amazed he didnt trigger warn himself while writing the damn thing. It totally STRIPS women of any sort of personal responsibility, stating that if a partner of his is ever unsure, in the present tense or in retrospect, that he will readily assume the label of rapist, because, well shucks you know how us women are, its so darned *hard* for us to know our own minds…..*barf*
Yeah, I have to agree with Natasha here. Yes, women have been socialized to not be as assertive and forthright about sex and “no” as they should have been, but honestly the tone is pretty patronizing. She had every right and opportunity to tell you know and not just put up with sex. She didn’t do that. She carries some weight. That lack of no could have been because she was inexperienced, naive or plain passive aggressive and wanted you to feel like cr@p.
You tell him Natasha! I’m loving it!
I like a lot of what you have written, Hugo, and it’s great you learned from this to look more carefully for active, enthusiastic consent. But I find the level of concern over-the-top, sexist and insulting. It reads to me like a denial of women’s adulthood, responsibility and resilience. Women are not children and – even in a patriarchal society – do not need to be shielded from all mistakes, inconveniences and discomforts in life. You learned to be more aware. She undoubtedly learned to honour her own desires more. And I very much doubt she was traumatised or unable to recover from having had some sex that she engaged in just because she liked you.
For those of you who are concerned about Hugo’s willingness to label himself a rapist; please know that he doesn’t mean a word of it. A more transparent creep would be hard to find. If you buy his garbage please get in touch, I have two Brooklyn Bridges for sale…
Squick said: “For those of you who are concerned about Hugo’s willingness to label himself a rapist; please know that he doesn’t mean a word of it. A more transparent creep would be hard to find. If you buy his garbage please get in touch, I have two Brooklyn Bridges for sale”
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I think we all know who this Troll is.
He and his deputies never give up, do they ‘lol
I feel bad for both Hugo and Katie. What happened wasn’t rape at all. I hope Katie got some counseling to uncover why she has no voice when it comes to saying “no.” I don’t believe this is some patriarchal thing. I think it’s personality driven. Plenty of women can say no and do.