The Appeal of “Bad Boys”

 Doctor NerdLove explains that what makes a “bad boy” so appealing isn’t his badness, it’s something even nice guys can do, too.

If there is one thing that men, especially nerdy, geekier men—men more prone to be Nice Guys and White Knights—will complain about when it comes to their dating problems, it’s that women don’t like “nice” men. No, frustrating the millions of men who heard “I wish I could meet a nice guy like you”1 and took it too much to heart is the way that the “bad boy” seems to win women’s hearts and loins.

There is no dating cliche older or more lingering than the appeal of the “bad boy”. One of the most defining characteristics of known rake Lord Byron is that he was famously “mad, bad and dangerous to know”.

Narcissistic. Drug abuser. Self-destructive.Unable to keep it in his pants. Perpetually running out of money. All he needed was to be in a band to get “bad boyfriend” yahtzee.

It’s a subject that I have talked about before: the idea that all women love assholes and that this is programmed into them genetically; after all, assholes are often more “alpha” than the Nice Guys who complain about them, therefore it is their inevitable destiny to fall for them… usually on their backs. Therefore the key to being more attractive is to be “bad”.

It’s a short-sighted solution that builds on a collection of mistaken assumptions reinforced by confirmation bias and poor understanding of human sexuality and evolutionary psychology… but it’s not entirely wrong.

In fact, the appeal of the “bad boy” is something that psychologists and sociologists have been interested in for quite some time. And it seems as though they may have found some interesting answers.


I Told You I’m A Psycho…

It is unquestionable that men and women with certain negative traits personality traits seem to be more popular. We all remember the Queen Bee at the top of the high-school pecking order; the most popular girl in school, enforcing her will through manipulation and cruelty. Similarly, it seemed as though the douchiest of jocks were inevitably the Big Men on Campus. We can’t stand them… so why do assholes seem so popular?

Well, it turns out that three personality traits known as the “dark triad” are actually associated with being able to enhance a person’s physical attractiveness.

Although admittedly it sounds a lot like the McGuffin that Gannondorf steals in every installment of Legend of Zelda.

The so-called “Dark Triad” consists of three separate but overlapping personality traits – perceived as having similar underlying commonalities:

  1. Narcissism – defined as an overly developed sense of self-worth and entitlement matched with intense egotism.
  2. Machiavellianism – defined by the person’s reliance on manipulation to get what he or she desires without regard to others as well as a cynical dismissal of morality as “for other people”.
  3. Psychopathy – a loaded term; it doesn’t refer to a violent maniac, but to someone defined by reckless thrill-seeking, selfishness, lack of remorse and affect and a certain level of superficial charm

Scientists have known for a while that narcissism—for example—actually has direct correlation with initial popularity. In fact, a study conducted in 2010 by Mitja Back and Boris Egloff of Johannes Gutenberg—University of Mainz found that, upon first meeting them, people thought that narcissistic individuals were “flashier”, “more confident” and more immediately likable.
What made things interesting is a new study, conducted in 2012 by Nick Holtzman and Michael Strube of Washington University in St. Louis found that individuals whose personality types conformed to the dark triad were perceived as being physically more attractive than people who didn’t have darker personality aspects.

To test this idea, Holtzman and Strube invited 111 college students to participate in a study. The students – more women than men – were photographed in their usual clothes, then given grey, featureless sweatsuits to change into. Anyone wearing make-up was asked to remove it while anyone with long hair was asked to pull it into a ponytail. The idea was to take as neutral and natural a photo of the participants as possible as a control. Students were asked to answer a questionaire and rate themselves on a personality scale. To help counterbalance any errors introduced by self-reporting, Strube and Holtzman alsointerviewed acquaintances of the subjects about their personalities. From these results, the subjects were rated and scored with relation to dark triad personality types.

The photos of the subjects—both the dressed up and neutral shots—were then shown to strangers, who were asked to rate them in terms of physical attractiveness. Those who scored higher on the dark triad were consistently found to be more attractive by strangers than those who rated lower… but only when they were dressed up. When all of the subjects were wearing the sweat-suits and showing their more natural look, the influence of the dark triad personality type disappeared.

Heeeeyooooo… I got my haaaaaalo….

As it turns out, those individuals who ranked higher on the dark triad scale were better at making a better presenting themselves and knowing how to make themselves look better. Just as with the earlier narcissism study, those with darker personality traits were better able to cultivate their sense of style. They tend to wear edgier, more stylish clothes that make them stand out more2, wear a more fashionable hair style, have more confident body language and smiled more.

In short: they know how to make a better first impression than other people do. By knowing how to display themselves to their best advantage, they made themselves look better. By doing so, they take advantage of a phenomenon known as the “halo effect”: because they are perceived as being more physically attractive, we automatically assume that they’re also better people – kinder, smarter, more trustworthy, etc.

As a result: the more psychopathic or narcissistic you are, the better you are at conning people into thinking you’re actually a good person.
Y’know. Deep down.

Possibly very deep down.

So clearly the key to success in dating is to learn to become a functioning sociopath, right?


Also, There Are Downsides…

One thing that the Black-Etjoff study found is that the those people with dark triad personalities may make for great initial impressions but lousy long-term ones. In fact, their personal popularity tends to drop the more people get to know the real person behind the flash and smoke.

Y’see, the dark triad personality types are pre-disposed to short-term goals and thinking; they focus on immediate goals (“How do I get her in bed?”) and less on long term ones (“How do I get her to go out with me again?”) which hinders them in the long term… including financially. They’re much more likely to go for the immediate (and smaller) reward than for planning for a future (and bigger) one. They’re prone to stealing partners from others and are more likely to have substance-abuse issues and are known for having lowered standards—sometimes drastically—for sexual partners. The dark triad also has a correlation with excessive agression towards others, bullying behavior and racist attitudes.

It’s almost impossible to keep the charade up for very long; inevitably people will start seeing the man behind the mask and start realizing that he’s actually pretty damn repulsive.

This makes it rather difficult to maintain relationships for very long. Even if you’re willing to sacrifice the long term relationship on the altar of more frequent, no-commitment sex, people talk and social circles are smaller than you’d think. It doesn’t take very long for a reputation for being an asshole to spread and effectively limit your available dating pool.  Similarly, this is not behavior that ages well; time and gravity make fools of us all eventually and what can seem charmingly rakish at 20 quickly becomes boorish at 3o and just embarrassing at 40.


Finding Your Creamy Bastard Center

It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.

This, in case you haven’t been paying attention, means that you can cultivate these traits to your own advantage without the negative aspects that come with them.

A person’s physical attractiveness isn’t binary; it can be affected by something as minor as overhead lighting vs. indirect lighting. Simple changes in posture can alter people’s perception of a person’s attractiveness. Even people who are considered conventionally beautiful often benefit from some external help.

Never underestimate the power of foundation and blush.

The people with high dark triad scores knew how to make a better first impression by crafting their look to their best advantage.

You can do this too.


Find Your Archetype:

Start by figuring out what your sexy stereotype is. Are you a rocker or a business tycoon? Do you aspire to be a modern dandy like Andre 3000 or are you more of a Mod? Find a base line look that’s congruent with your identity and use this as the foundation for everything else.

Cultivate Your Style:

Be willing to stand out and make a statement. Cultivate a style in line with your archetype and make it your own. This means that you have to be willing to take some risks and break out of clothes that—while psychologically comfortable—cause you to blend in with the herd. You may feel like you’re playing dress-up at first, but the more you try, the more natural you will find that it becomes.

Make Sure Your Clothes Fit Right:

Seriously, I can’t emphasize this enough. Clothes that are too baggy or too small make you look bad. Period.

Use Confident Body Language:

Narcissists, psychopaths and Machiavellians aren’t shrinking violets; they stand up tall and take up space. They want people know that they’re there. Everything about them screams “confidence”—their body language most of all. Even if you’re not feeling confident, adopting confident body language—standing up straight, letting your limbs relax, moving deliberately and with purpose—will help you fake it. Even more importantly, using more confident body language will make you feel more confident… and confidence is sexy.


For fuck’s sake, smile. A big, genuine smile that reaches your eyes. A friendly smile makes you much more attractive than a blank affect or trying to look “serious”. Part of George Clooney’s appeal is that grin—equal parts friendliness and mischief that promises stories you’ll be telling for years to come.

“Bad boys” may be attractive at the first glance, but only because they know how to sell themselves up front. They have to; they have no long game and they know it. The more skilled you become at creating an immediate positive impression in others the more of a leg up that you’ll have over those bad boys. You’ll soon find that you’re having levels of success that they could only dream of.

Not only will you have the style to make that great first impression… but you’ll have the substance to back it up.


  1. And ignored the silent “…who I would be interested in fucking.” []
  2. known as peacocking in PUA circles []

Originally appeared at Paging Doctor NerdLove

Stereotypes for lunch Sign up for daily or weekly email

Lead photo courtesy of Flickr/Marco Raaphorst

All other photos courtesy of Paging Doctor NerdLove

About Harris O'Malley

Harris O'Malley provides geek dating advice at his blog Paging Dr. NerdLove, as well as writing the occasional guest review for and appearing on the podcast The League of Extremely Ordinary Gentlemen. He can be found dispensing snark and advice on Facebook and Twitter (@DrNerdLove.)

Dr. NerdLove is not really a doctor.


  1. I want to say that a lot of the responses have been thought provoking, while others are heavily tinged with emotions- pretty negative ones. I have some pity for some posters. Actually wish I could make their life better, but the truth is, that power is in their hands.

    Regarding the bad sex or no sex relationships, and what a raw,sucky deal it is to be in one?


    I read about the reasoning behind why some men have horrible or non-existent sex lives. For the most part the blame was put on the woman- rightly or wrongly so.

    Honestly, I can’t answer why such is happening to them because each situation is different as to how it came to that( no sex or bad sex).

    Even if someone offers up why something is happening to them- is that the entire story or truth?

    How would anyone of us ever know? Maybe they don’t even know why their sex life is terrible.

    All they have is a lot of frustration and anger- but not the true reason.

    Because they honestly don’t know what the true reason is.

    ( Yes, I did see some people offer up reasons on why women would give a poor performance in the bedroom or be a no show. It could all be true- it could be partly true- it could be totally off the mark.)

    I also wonder if any man or woman with the above complaint ever thinks about their own actions in the bedroom.

    Do they really know what their partner wants?

    Do they ask?


    Just get into a routine that gets stale fast?

    Do they have hang ups?

    There are so many reasons someone would beg off having sex with a partner or only put in an obligatory effort- you have to wonder why, because sometimes it is a lot deeper than the person complaining, even knows.

    Anything from weight gain-hygiene- technique- to deep seated hidden anger on the part of the partner holding out, could put the breaks on sex or cause it to be seriously lackluster.

    But if people have a problem *really* talking about what goes on in the bedroom and their dissatisfaction about it, nothing will ever have a chance of being resolved.

    I have heard from male and female friends, who were very upset about their relationship/marriage, and when sex comes up there are always complaints. And the reasons varied widely as to why sex sucked for them.

    So if you say you have a lazy partner- you may have just that- a lazy, uncaring, selfish sex partner.

    Or you may have someone just as unhappy as you- lazy or not.

    Leaving words unspoken means you will never know why your life is the way it is- at least in the bedroom.

    Perhaps many of us meet a partner like that in our dating/ marrying lifetime.


    It is one thing to experience it- but to put up with it ?

    Why stay?

    You are not a prisoner in a relationship( although admittedly abused women feel they are and may fear for their lives or kids safety. But let’s put that example aside )


    A poor or non-existent sex life in a relationship that is being, perpetuated by one partner,it is a form of neglect: Emotional/physical and spiritual neglect. It is wrong to do, if you claim you love your partner.

    I cannot think of any sexualized human( straight- gay or bi) who would wish for a partner that doesn’t want to have sex with them; or nearly as bad, a partner who puts in a half- assed effort into sex, like they are doing you a favor.

    If it comes across like you are lucky you got *some* early in the game of dating, that is a harbinger of things to come. You are likely to get more of the same behavior/attitude.

    Who needs or wants that in a partner?

    If you are in a relationship of any kind where you are doing* all the work*, be it sex or just working on all the other facets that make up a relationship, you need to ask yourself why you are still in it.

    Well? Why are you?

    Maybe there are secondary gains for staying in this kind of relationship you bitch about so much?
    Are you being totally honest with YOURSELF?

    I mean a relationship takes 2- so why is one person the workhorse?

    It also begs the question of the what is attitude of the person NOT doing the work?

    Why are they in the relationship? Are they unhappy too? Or are they fine with it?

    What are their possible secondary gains for sticking around with someone they don’t really want to be intimate with?

    (There is an assumption that the person not pulling their weight has it made and is content with how things are- but that may not be so at all. Sorry- it was only fair to be Devil’s advocate on that one)

    The saying goes that ” the power in the relationship, is held by the one who cares the least.”.

    I can see the truth in that statement. It makes me uncomfortable because true love-unconditional love is not about power struggles and tally sheets of score keeping.

    I have long felt a relationship is always in a sort of see -saw momentum- up and down- sometimes steady but yes, in flux- for better or worse .

    And I use that see-saw analogy for the relationship as a whole;meaning the emotions that come with it, along with work involved to keep it intact, and of course, the sexual side.

    There is flux- nothing is ever constant.

    Sometimes one person loves the other person more- than it moves the other way. The other partner takes on that role.

    But they always love each other- it just vacillates in degrees, over time and this tends to be a cyclical thing.

    There will be times when partners both meet right in the middle- when the see-saw is steady.

    I would say those are the times when love is and feels equal for each.

    I don’t like thinking about power and love together because they seem at odds with each other, despite the statement of” the power in the relationship is held by the one who cares the least.”.

    I will say that in dating, I have seen this play out quite obviously. Even in observing others I know.

    The person who is not as vested in the relationship, holds the cards.

    They may care- they may even feel love- but they are not as fully into the relationship as their partner is( for whatever reason that may be).

    Sometimes it really does come down to the title of that book” He/She is just not that into you”.
    As simple as that.

    They are with you for the purpose of passing time.

    You are just Mr. Or Miss Right Now….. not Mr. or Miss Right.

    I think it is unfair and cruel to date someone just to pass time.

    Some of us initially embark on a first date with a ” What the hell” attitude and decide to see where it goes or just go out for some fun, or distraction or on the rebound, etc.

    At a certain point? It becomes wrong. Like morally wrong.

    It takes a moral wrong turn, usually when, ” What the hell” becomes protracted and the other person does have a serious interest in you and you are only there to kill time until someone else comes along.

    You are stopping that person from meeting someone that could be ideal for them. You could also be giving them false hopes if they happen to be really into YOU. :-(

    This less invested partner has the relationship reins and can steer where the relationship goes or does not go, unless the other partner gets fed up and decides to be proactive and find out exactly where they and their relationship stands with this person .

    The less invested partner therefore can control the reins on sex.

    I can think of reasons why some people are not as fully invested and not all of them are negative reasons.

    Someone trying to finish up a law degree or medical school can’t give their whole selves to a relationship at the moment..

    Someone waiting to get through some sort of crisis( family, health,job etc) and therefore can’t be committed 100 percent to the relationship but does not want to discard it either.

    By the way, I am speaking of the above instances with regard to relatively new relationships- not long term ones or marriage.

    And then we have those who are not in it 100 % because they have commitment issues.

    That is a tough call as to whether the person will change.

    How long is a person willing to wait to see someone lose their phobia of settling down?

    (The person involved with the commitment phobic partner has to decide at what point to cut their losses if change is NOT inevitable. And yes, it is hard to walk away from a person who seems ideal but who just cannot bring themselves to commit.)

    As for bad sex or no sex- and crummy relationships in general, I can’t help but ask:

    Why would you settle for that ? Is it about YOUR self esteem?

    Maybe you think you can’t do better? Even though what you have at the moment is pretty crappy?

    I ask that of both men and women who find themselves in this situation.

    You are better off totally alone and doing your own thing, because essentially you are involved with someone,yet you are still feeling very much alone.

    Alone as in: the dreadful feeling of loneliness, even as your significant other is sitting or sleeping right beside you. Take that as a bad sign.

    It can be a horrible feeling and it doesn’t usually change unless the relationship changes and that is going to depend on 2 people to work on-willingly.

    Instead of concentrating on how much your partner is to blame for all they don’t do- why not just leave if the handwriting on the wall screams that your lives together are never going to get any better?

    If nothing is going to change- if your partner sees nothing wrong, or doesn’t show interest in changing, then just chalk it up to the fact that you got involved with the wrong person and start walking.

    People make mistakes. Of all kinds.

    You got involved with the wrong kind of person. Big deal- move on.

    Some are going to retort that it was not always that way when they first married( the sex, the relationship- everything was a lot different and much better in the past).

    Well, whatever the issues are then, try to fix it- and if it is not fixable- get out.

    Life is short- do you want to waste it with someone who you have become to seriously resent, when you might be able to go out there and find someone truly idea for you?

    There are no guarantees of who will be out there if you leave.

    But there is one guarantee, and that is that you will be a lot less miserable than staying with your current partner by leaving.

    Some people are afraid of the unknown, so as miserable as they are- they stay.

    They would rather be with the very person that they hold so much anger toward, because they are use to them, then dare to walk away and possibly start a new and better life.

    (Tell anyone you are staying together for the kids and I will tell you that is not such a smart or altruistic move, especially if there is a lot of fighting in the home. Kids never forget unhappy childhoods or angry parents that hate each other)

    And an FYI to men- there are women dating men who can’t be bothered with sex, so get it out of your head that this is a problem only men deal with.

    In fact, in some ways it hurts worse for women because we have been raised with the old notion that men are ready for action at the drop of a hat- thus women should expect to be not just innately desirable to men but also desired at a moment’s notice.

    If your man can’t give you the time of the day sexually, you feel horrible.

    You question why you are undesirable. A zillion questions about why you are not being touched go through your mind.

    You start to feel really unattractive and doubt your worth as a sexual being, especially if you are the one making all the overtures and getting turned down.

    Eventually, rather than feel humiliated, you stop making overtures to your boyfriend/husband.

    The rejection is too much to bare.

    Your self esteem takes a large beating from this rejection( just like the man whose significant other does not want to have sex with him or who has him do all the work in bed).

    Granted, men too, can be tired- in pain- not in the mood mentally or physically- just like women and sincerely have a reason to not want to be intimate.

    I never said men are sex robots that are at the ready 24/7. And neither are women.

    But there are truly some men where sex with their partner is not a very high priority.

    If you are a sexual person and notice this in the earlier part of your relationship that your partner does not make sex a priority( and when they do – it sucks due to a lack of effort) get out .

    As an end sum up about crummy relationships( whatever is making them crummy): It can be both sides who feel the hurt due to sexual rejection or a poor sex life.

    it can be both men and women who resent doing all the work, be it in the bedroom or the work you need to do to keep a relationship together.

    Sex is part and parcel to the relationship, so if something is wrong there, there is a chance that something is wrong the relationship, and it could be manifesting in the sex department.

    In closing I wonder why anyone would stay with a person if they were that unhappy or bitter or sexually unsatisfied.

    I spotted some bitter comments on the forum with a nice slice of misogyny- whether intended or not.

    Maybe some men need to hear from the bitter women out there who do all the work?

    Some people have a desperate need to be in a relationship- they don’t want to be alone.

    They can’t enjoy their own company. They can only HAVE A LIFE if they have a partner.

    I find that very sad.

    I also find that those people rush into any relationship just to have SOMEONE in their life.

    These are the people who break up with their partner and not even 2 weeks later, they have a new bf/gf.

    Dating just to have someone around, even if you know the person you are currently seeing is totally wrong for you, is sadly pathetic.

    The people who do this, then wonder why they are so unhappy…….

    If you cannot be content with yourself or by yourself, you will come across as desperate out in the dating world, to those who can read between the lines.

    Desperate and/or needy is hardly appealing to either sex.

    As for bad sex or non-existent sex with your partner, if you are in that situation and have been for a while, question why you stay there.

    • @C.I.M….

      “In closing I wonder why anyone would stay with a person if they were that unhappy or bitter or sexually unsatisfied.”

      Unfortunately, I did so for over a decade for the sake of “family.” But, all I suffered was added torment and mental anguish. Hence, I filed for divorce. I have been single and getting lots of very satisfying sex from two women. Just regret it took me so long to figure things out.

      Overall, I like you post. It is fair, balanced, and quite reasonable.

      The fundamental problem in America is that men are at a considerable disadvantage. We have to play by rules and accept certain situations either due to asymmetric information or dishonest behavior by many women.

      I am now free of a lot of the rubbish. I only have FWB arrangements with two women. I have little to no desire for any kind of intimate relationship with a woman other than sex. I know it sounds a bit harsh. But, women do this ALL the time. Just read Kat’s comment above on casual sex. So, why can’t I do the same?

      Until women get honest about the types of men they REALLY want to have sex with nothing will change. Smart men will simply eschew relationships and increasingly rely on porn and sex workers.
      Some men will feel the need to use deceit to counter the perceived deceit by many women. Now matter how one looks at it, it is a sad state of affairs.

      But, personally, I love sex and if I had to lie to get it I would. Just being honest about it. Why? Because I have discovered women lie about this sort of stuff all the time. Then they PRETEND otherwise and expect men to believe them.

      • yes, some women lie to get what they want. some men lie to get what they want. Some women and men make good partners who are generally honest and not manipulative. neither gender is the enemy. It doesn’t mean we should all just give up trying to be honest people because we’ve been burned. better to learn from the experiences so you can avoid them in the future, and know the signs to look for so you know who to avoid.

        • @Rowan….

          “It doesn’t mean we should all just give up trying to be honest people because we’ve been burned. better to learn from the experiences so you can avoid them in the future, and know the signs to look for so you know who to avoid.”

          While in theory I would agree. However, from a practical point the man is still at a disadvantage. The information is asymmetric! So, when trying to “look for” the proper signs, often such signs are deceptive. Hence, it is best to simply avoid.

          I am big believer that the number of sex partners a woman (or man) has DOES impact sex within a marriage and/or long term relationship. So, how are you really going to know how many men she has REALLY been with? If she says 10, we know from studies and research the real number is probably closer to 20. Women understate sexual partners, whereas men overstate sexual partners.

          I just really resent this tendency by women to just think it is perfectly OK to marry a man and then cut off or dramatically reduce sex. There is no feeling on her part about the husbands emotional and social well being. This is happening time and time again to the nice men they want as husbands.

          Thus, I am simply not going to ever entrust my sexual health to one woman ever again.

          • @Jules

            I re-read your post( thx for the kind words on my latest one, glad you liked it and found it to be one of hope as opposed to doom and gloom).

            I think what I am getting out of your post( and correct me if I am wrong) is that women sleep with the bad boys- and marry the good guys, but withhold sex from them or just are not enthusiastic about sex with them after marriage?

            Or is this also picked up on while dating( lack of interest in sex)? If a man picks up on that with a woman while dating- he should run the other way.

            Am I right in what I derived out of your post?

            If so, here is what is weird about what you are alluding to: Some men have a similar way of thinking.

            They will date the * slutty* girls- but end up marrying the wholesome nice girl.

            One type of girl is to kind to have sex with- one is meant to be your wife and possibly the mother of your future children.

            Again this sounds like compartmentalizing and it is. And I think both sexes do it- but- I don’t think *all* men and women are guilty of doing it. Does that make sense?

            Also if you think women marry nice guys- but have the wild sex with the bad boys, we have to ask: what do the bad boys do different in bed compared to the nice guys?

            Or is it just the bad boy persona turning them on? Is that enough- just to be a bad boy or is there some technique they have down pat that good guys don’t?

            If the fact that bad boys are abusive, neglectful or just plain putzes are what turn women on, then a good guy is never going to be able to emulate that- unless he is role playing.
            It is not in a true good guy to behave this way.
            Yes, I know, we could write a dissertation on that.

            The only positive thing I can throw into the picture here of both sexes that tend to put dating material vs marriage material in different bins, is this: if you are not happy with how things are in bed with your partner, a frank talk or marriage counseling could help.

            But people have to be open minded and open toward changing their bedroom scenario.

            If you have a marriage partner refusing to address the problems in the bedroom, then you are really in a conundrum.

            Madonna/Whore syndrome is what they call it with men.

            With women ?
            I don’t know; Bad Boy/Good Guy syndrome? One you get crazy with- one you plan a life with?

            I agree also, that it is wrong to be super sexual with a bf and then once down the aisle and back from the honeymoon, gradually the sex drops off.

            Someone once guy told me( in a joking but bitter way)this was referred to as Wedding Cake poisoning.

            Unfortunately, it is hardly funny.

            • C.I.M

              Yes, men too compartmentalize women, just as vice versa….having casual sex with the slutty girls but wanting wholesome girl for marriage

              But here’s the difference…The compartmentalization has nothing to do with the womens sexual attractiveness. Every man marries a woman he intends to have the best sex of his life with. Infact most men have much higher standards for women’s physical attractiveness when looking a wife, than casual sex. Women dont need to worry about not being sexually / physically appealing to their husbands.

              Men distinguish b/w the 2 types of women simply based on their sexual history. The wholesome marriage material girl may well be hotter and sexier than any one night stand, F-buddy the guy has ever had.

              That doesnt stand true with the sexes reversed. The bad boys, women like to fuck are usually a lot more physically and sexually attractive to women, than the men who are only seen as stable long term relationship material.

              Only men have to be vary of this dynamic. Its a gender specific phenomenon.

            • @keith

              I understand that basically anyone can screw anyone, so it makes sense that men would be okay with a one night stand even if the woman is not that great looking.

              It makes sense a guy would want a nice looking or hot wife.
              But looks don’t always carry over to good sex.

              As for the theory you present with the bad boys being the ones women like to fuck?
              I must be out of the norm- I find character and morals and similar interests with a person to be sexy.
              Someone who * gets me* is damn sexy.

              Even if they are just an average guy. Average is: Not movie star gorgeous- not Quasimodo Ugly. Average- typical- uhhh- dare we say the normal guy you see in a supermarket?

              I guess I stand up for the average guy because he represents reality. I want the real deal. Stable, supportive, kind, compassionate- all qualities that matter in life.

              I am more turned on mentally about commonality than looks. Besides, with commonality there is a good chance you each like each other. Looks can wear off on you( the appeal) and they also definitely vanish over time.

              THE GOOD MEN PROJECT is a great site for men AND women. I am surprised they don’t have a sister site( brother site?) that offers a online dating venue.

            • I am more turned on mentally about commonality than looks. Besides, with commonality there is a good chance you each like each other. Looks can wear off on you( the appeal) and they also definitely vanish over time.

              That sounds very reasonable. Somehow, though, it seems like any time I’ve heard a man express the same thing, it prompts a response from women about how hurtful or unacceptable it is to feel “settled” for, that a man is supposed to find her the most beautiful woman in the world, no matter what. So, if a man says he’s more mentally turned on by a woman’s commonality because her looks don’t matter and would fade even if they were good, does that still sound as good? What if he’s uncouth in his phrasing, like saying he loves his wife despite her “ruined tits”?

              I mean this as a response to a kind of statement I’ve seen many times, not trying to pick on you in particular, CIM. Basically, what I see more often than not is that a woman who says she’s attracted to more than looks (or goes farther and says that “looks don’t matter”) is regarded as having said something noble and enlightened about what she finds attractive. When a man says the same thing, it’s characterized (by women) as either insulting – from the point of view of the chosen partner – or manipulative, as in just a ploy to take advantage of less attractive women on the assumption they’re desperate and less likely to reject his advances. Why is it so often considered as being more open-minded for a woman, but “lowering standards” for a man?

            • @ Marcus

              Attraction DOES matter or else you remain friends.

              ( So we have to agree that to a degree- and the degree varies- looks/ attraction matters)

              I had to get that part out of the way.

              I would say looks matter less than commonality and connection, because those things act as a turn on for me. ( I understand everyone is different)

              For me, it is not just an attraction to a person that would seal the deal- which it seems to do for many people.

              I don’t care how hot you look if we can’t connect on other levels.

              And I am not even speaking about sex.

              Just the connection of interests, morals, how we view the world, our ways of demonstrating affection, having just enough similarity mixed with the right dose of being different enough, to keep it interesting.

              And hot looking is in the eyes of the beholder.

              I am not looking for hot looking or perfect- just perfect for me.

              I understand how you posed the query: why is it when men say the same or similar thing it is taken offensively or as an insult.

              I don’t know what to make of that.

              If a guy raved to me about how much he enjoyed being with me and how he always looked forward to our next date or really liked planning adventures for us to do together, or hated missing my phone calls when his cell phone was off- I would be flattered.

              These are genuine compliments.

              They are just different than the compliment of a nice guy saying the more typical thing a woman might hear- like: how hot he found her or how he couldn’t wait for them to be alone again.

              Compliments vary and the value behind them vary as well.

              It seems like when women say all that you outlined, that they are being open minded- not shallow or superficial- willing to overlook certain things and it all comes across as if she is very kind ,mature and expansive in her thinking when it comes to men and relationships.

              If a man says looks don’t matter- and he claims he means it, I wonder about 2 things:
              Is he seriously sincere about that statement.

              I mean really sincere, because so many people find it extra easy to lie online due to our invisibility


              Is this a ruse just to get any girl to go out with him because he really just wants to get laid. And by putting in the LOOKS DON’T MATTER disclaimer out there, he will get a lot more replies to his personal ad.

              I am not saying that in a sexist way-I am saying that in a leery, distrustful way. We do have mean people out there. People who seek to take advantage of others.

              Which is why I would be questioning a personal ad like that for its honesty.

              Men are more about eye appeal. Women are emotionally based when looking for partners.

              So to read in a personal ad that looks don’t matter? And it was written by a guy?

              It does make one wonder.

              Even when women say it, the truth is, if you are going to have a partnership and date/marry- presumably sex is part of the package and you generally don’t want to have sex with people you are NOT attracted to.

              So no, I think the semantics are wrong for both sexes when they write or say LOOKS DON’T MATTER.

              They may not be a priority- but they DO matter.

              Maybe what is trying to be said is this” You don’t have to be drop dead gorgeous. I am not looking for a movie star”

              Maybe that doesn’t sound diplomatic enough so the generic” Looks don’t matter” is put in a personal ad instead.

              If you are a sexual being that hopes to meet someone for a relationship, I would think you would want to feel some element of attraction toward a person you plan to date/marry.

              Otherwise you are just friends or see each other in a brother/sister type of light.

              I also hate to say it , and don’t want to seem cruel,but some people see LOOKS DON’t MATTER in a personal ad and realize by the photo of the person making that pronouncement, that they are not exactly easy on the eyes.

              It becomes obvious why they are putting LOOKS DON’ T MATTER in the ad and it is because they don’t feel confident that many people will respond.

              Are men lowering their standards by saying LOOKS DON’T MATTER?
              I don’t think so.

              But the real question is, when they say it, what do they REALLY mean by it?

            • @C.I.M….

              “Men are more about eye appeal. Women are emotionally based when looking for partners.”

              It depends on a partner for what purpose. If a man just wants to get laid, eye appeal/hottness is the primary driver. Same for the women! If she is looking for only sex, physical attractiveness and safety are the primary drivers.

              Women are more driven by novelty and variety when it comes to sex. SO, the emotion for booty calls and casual sex is just not that important. It is the ability of the man to give her some good sex, period.

            • It seems like when women say all that you outlined, that they are being open minded- not shallow or superficial- willing to overlook certain things and it all comes across as if she is very kind ,mature and expansive in her thinking when it comes to men and relationships.

              If a man says looks don’t matter- and he claims he means it, I wonder about 2 things:
              Is he seriously sincere about that statement.

              I mean really sincere, because so many people find it extra easy to lie online due to our invisibility


              Is this a ruse just to get any girl to go out with him because he really just wants to get laid. And by putting in the LOOKS DON’T MATTER disclaimer out there, he will get a lot more replies to his personal ad.

              I am not saying that in a sexist way-I am saying that in a leery, distrustful way. We do have mean people out there. People who seek to take advantage of others.

              And that’s exactly my point. It’s treated as open-mindedness if a woman says it, and either a lie or manipulation if a man says it. I don’t think the context of an online personal ad is necessary – I think this is the attitude regardless of the context in which a person says they don’t care about looks, or that looks are only a small component of what they’re attracted to. It may not be a case of intentional sexism, but if the same attitude is open-minded in a woman but sleazy in a man, that sounds like some sexism in action to me. If you don’t think so, then can you think of an example of how a man could have and express the same attitude about looks that you do, and expect to be believed?

            • cashdoller says:

              The reason for that is simple: looks matter more for a man than it does for a woman.

              Don’t worry, women aren’t more noble or more morally upstanding than us men though. To them, this same shallowness doesn’t come from valuing looks so high. What they highly value is power and money.

              This is why you always see the rich old guy who has more money than god with the young bombshell. Both of them are immoral and total piece of shit character. Neither one would you want to be friends with in terms of personality.

            • @C.I.M….

              “I think what I am getting out of your post( and correct me if I am wrong) is that women sleep with the bad boys- and marry the good guys, but withhold sex from them or just are not enthusiastic about sex with them after marriage?”

              Almost. Let me clarify things for you.

              What I am asserting (and observing) is that many women will have sex with varying types of men: bad boys, good boys, ugly, thugs, crazies, convicts, degenerates,……it is ALL based on sexual attractiveness. Many of the men are men whom a lot of women would not even consider dating. With these men the sex is passionate, enthusiastic, and great. But, what you really see is a small percentage of men these women go after for sex.

              Then what happens, these same women (and it is a great many) will find a partner for marriage. Usually, this man is kind, polite, funny, and commitment material. However, the women will not bring the same level of sexual devotion, passion or desire to the marriage. In essence, the husband gets the worst aspects of his new wife, sexually. It is as if many women just do not think their husbands are as deserving of sex as these other men.

              This is what really really annoys me about many women. I have been divorced for over 2 years. I have enjoyed the best sex, the greatest quantity of sex than my entire 15+ years of marriage. What I have discovered is the last thing you want to be sexually to a woman is a husband.

              Now, since being single I have spoken to many women about the marriage and sex thingy. Most are married, some were divorced. Here is what they seem to universally agree: most men are not good in bed. Ok. Fine. But, these women know this BEFORE they get married. So, why marry the guy?

              If you know the vast majority of men are not good in bed, then evidently sex is NOT a priority for YOU. That’s fine. But, do women think the men should feel the same? I really believe most women think like this. This is why sex is such a huge issue in marriage. Most married men think (and do) have shitty sex lives.

              Most of the men the typical woman marries is not very sexually experienced as the typical woman. Just a fact. Why do you think there are no male prostitutes for women?
              Because the typical woman can (and do) have f**k buddies, etc. Most men are not so lucky. The men who are their f**k buddies are usually sexing other women. The women know this but don’t care as they are just booty call partners.

              But, I just cannot for the life of me understand why women just do not treat their husband well sexually. I just do not get it. I really think that many women should just marry the men they like to have sex with. It would make men such as myself a lot happier.

            • @Jules

              Okay- this is what I took away from your explanation.

              Sadly the first part is: husband equals boring sex partner.

              I don’t feel that is true, even though I have never been married.

              You have encountered women or know of women who seemed to deliberately withhold sex from husbands.

              Everyone in a loving relationship deserves to have sexual intimacy if both partners have agreed on that already. Suddenly icing out a partner is wrong.

              I would be questioning why a woman is icing out her husband because face it- it means then, that she too is NOT getting sex. At least not with her husband.

              Is she cheating? Yes- No- Maybe.

              Point is, why does she not want to have sex with her husband any more or why does she do so begrudgingly?

              There are numerous reasons for that.

              Some are plain wrong.

              Some make a woman justified in not feeling turned on- but do not justify her in not informing her husband of how she is feeling and what the problems are in the relationship/bedroom.

              In other words, okay, there are issues and you don’t want to sleep with him or you do so half heartedly, but you need to discuss this if you want to stay married.

              No one should remain in a loveless marriage or a sexless marriage if it makes them totally miserable.

              I know people stay together when this happens for monetary reasons or the kids and just lead separate lives.

              But I am referring to the man who wants his wife- and wants his wife to want him.

              You never find out the truth behind that unless the wife is truthful about her reasons.

              I dated someone I was not attracted to because I thought they were a good catch in a lot of other ways. I kept waiting, waiting, waiting for that thunderbolt to hit me.
              The moment when I would look at him through different eyes and suddenly be attracted to him.

              But it never happened. You can’t make yourself fall in love with someone- or care- or be sexually turned on if it is not there.

              If a wife was once were very amorous with her husband and things changed- I would be( as a man) really mulling this over and I would be thinking about my part in this, not just her shutting down on me.

              I would be not strictly looking at her part- I would wonder about mine.

              And I have been there. I dated a man 14 yrs older than me. At first things seemed NORMAL.
              Then I noticed he was avoiding situations where we would be alone.
              I started to question myself and my desirability.

              I was 30 and in nice shape and got attention from guys.

              But the attention I wanted and longed for was from my older boyfriend- and it wasn’t happening.

              Call me incredibly naive or stupid but I later learned that he was evading me sexually because he had diabetes.

              I knew he had diabetes when I met him and he pursued me for a year before I agreed to go out with him.
              What I did not know is that he was impotent.

              It seems that the initial rush of our first few times together made him seem normal- but as months went by, and what naturally should have happened did not, I am sure in his mind he felt under pressure.

              He should have already * been with me* and he hadn’t. How was he going to explain this away?
              He wasn’t- and he didn’t. He made me think I had a problem.

              He was always busy- tired- headache- distracted by a tv show- etc just insert excuse here( ).

              My self esteem did not take a long time to nosedive. Even when I wore sexier and sexier outfits, all I got was a polite” You look nice” where a more typical boyfriend would have had an entirely different response.

              Why was he dating me if he didn’t want me?

              Why did he even pursue me for that long if he did not want a real gf?

              Once I made sense of it all- and realized it was not about me, I was angry.

              He had no intention of doing anything to change our relationship into a more natural one.

              I felt like I had been scammed and demeaned. What was the cruelest is how he hid his shame by putting the blame on me or making lame excuses.

              He wasn’t man enough to actually say” Listen, I have a problem and I hope you will be patient with me about it ….”

              And because I was emotionally invested in him, I was not looking in other places for a boyfriend- so he also wasted my time as well as broke my heart.

              I finally said” I don’t see why we are even boyfriend/girlfriend when we really don’t have that kind of relationship. So why don’t we just go back to being friends like in the past. We never should have dated to begin with.”

              HE WAS FINE WITH IT ! Why?

              Because basically we would just keep doing what we were doing- which was hanging out without being sexual!

              Eventually, because I was attracted to him , I realized that even true friendship was ruined with this man.

              Flash forward to the next gf he becomes involved with is his age: She is in the same boat as me, only she decides to stick with him.

              She confided in me by email and phone. I knew she was fishing immediately the first time she contacted me. I guess she wanted to know if something was wrong with her( like I did) or if I had a similar experience.

              I told her that I went through what she was going through and he did not want to address the issue.

              I knew she was a very sexual woman. I had no idea how she was going to deal with dating him the way he was( again,not just a diabetic with impotence but one who would not get help but seemed to have a need to be involved with a woman).

              I learned later how she was dealing with it.

              She let him move into her home. I found out she would get out of their bed, go into her living room, get a bottle of vodka and cry herself to sleep.

              So women and men do face sexual rejection from bf/spouses and for a multitude of reasons. In this case, she sacrificed her sex life because she liked this man’s personality.
              I couldn’t do that.

              And even though I walked away, I did not have the need to find another guy pronto and jump his bones to make up for the deprivation I went through dating the older man.

              I just wanted a bf who I enjoyed who would want me as much as I wanted him.

              I think the gist of your story Julian applies to both sexes, but I have a feeling you are hearing more complaints from men, than from women about being frozen out of the bedroom.

              Either way- for either sex- when you are on the receiving end of being sexually ignored, neglected, frozen out, it hurts all the same and it does a number on your self esteem.

            • @C.I.M…

              “They will date the * slutty* girls- but end up marrying the wholesome nice girl.”

              “One type of girl is to kind to have sex with- one is meant to be your wife and possibly the mother of your future children.”

              Yes, men do this as you say. But, here is the big difference. These men do not go pinning for such women. Men do not treat these women better than their wives. They do not buy them clothing from Nortdstrom, Neiman,etc….There wives will be treated much better in ALL areas.

              Why? Because a man values his wife far far more than his lover, not matter how great the sex was for him. He will have sex with his wife as frequently as SHE permits.

              So, as you can see married women take away an important part of the relationship (sex) while the married man does not remove any important aspects of the sexual relationship.

            • @ Jules-

              Actually some men DO take something away from the relationship once they are married. As you claim many women withhold sex- or cave into it grudgingly once married, many men stop the romance and wooing.

              The attitude is” Well, I have got her- she is my wife. I can stop trying now.”

              I am not saying all men are like this. But it is about as prevalent as your point about women’s change in attitude toward sex after marriage.

              Why this happens? It varies by the person. But if a woman withholds sex, she is also punishing herself, unless she doesn’t care about sex( or is having an affair on the side so she actually isn’t missing anything).

              Why do men stop putting in an effort to do the things they know women like once they are married? For the segment of men that are guilty of such, I attribute it to laziness. And sometimes spite…… Maybe even tit for tat- like they won’t bother to keep up the romantic attention if she is withholding sex or acting like she is doing him a favor when they do have sex.

              In a relationship of any kind, it takes two to tango- two to make it work and two to make it NOT work.

              Just thought I would add in, what did not occur to you: Men can indeed remove important aspects of the relationship after marrying.

              Also important to remember is: what is deemed important is subjective to each person- male or female./

            • C.I.M.
              What exactly IS it that women do in a relationship, If we the two sexes by effort?
              is there something women do that forces them to work harder then just being female?
              A guy has to be masculine and forward, etc, etc. That shit is tiring. What do women do?

            • C I M

              Because romance and wooing is, more often than not, one sided.

              Ideally, why should a man need to put more effort to get what they both want – sex and intimacy ?

              If a man is desirable, if a woman is truly attracted to a man – physically and sexually – he wouldn’t need to bend backwards to earn sex and affection from her. But you imply that men need to earn sex from women.

              Why shouldn’t sex happen naturally and effortlessly for both partners, if both of them need it equally?

              If after marriage, a man removes the aspect of wooing, charming and earning sex/affection from a woman, then that aspect was unfair to begin with.

              Btw, why do you women have this mentality that sex is a gift you bestow upon men? That your sexuality is worth more than mens sexuality?

            • @C.I.M…

              Your points are well taken and respected.

              So, in essence what you are saying it that is is an exchange: romance and wooing for the woman in exchange for sex?

              Well, If that is what is happening, then I guess it is so. But, if the woman loves her husband and views him as sexually attractive, then why is the romance and wooing really necessary?

              While married, my ex wife and I did dinner dates, traveled, stayed at local hotels for a weekend…Still the sex was only once a month. So, my point is there is no guarantee this will work.

              The larger issue for me is just why is it necessary. I cannot grasp why some women will engage in casual sex with some men (no romance and wooing needed) but demand romance and wooing from the man they profess to love…Do you see my point?

              Perhaps my view is too logical? All I know from recent experience is I an enjoying great regular sex with two FWB partners with little romance and wooing. Hence, my view that being a lover beats being a husband, hands down.

            • Jules

              The ugly truth is that the romance, wooing is only required if the man lacks sexual desirability. Its a form of supplication to women.

              Good looking, hot, sexy guys dont have to do any of that. They can get sex and affection w/o bending backwards. Without bringing anything else to the table.

    • C.I.M.
      Often the sex is quite good in the beginning. For some “strange” reason, the downturn often come pretty soon after you have entered the commitment phase of a relationship. I don’t think it’s so much a question of people just not wanting to be alone, and/or wanting a relationship at all cost, as it is a question of entering relationships on a kind of false premises…

      • @FlyingKal

        I read your post and for the life of me, I don’t get why this phenomena happens unless as soon as things get more * official* in a relationship( commitment) concurrently the element of that initial excitement with one another is dying down.

        Not dead- just dying down.

        It is impossible to have or keep the same level of sexual excitement as when you first met ,because a large part of that excitement was not knowing each other as people and one another as sexual partners.

        If anyone is thinking they can have that awesome early magic for a prolonged period of time- or forever, they are not living in reality.
        Yes, you can feel attraction to your signficant other- but will you really feel it the same way you did when you did not know them well ?

        No. That is why it was so exciting back then. You can’t make * the early part of the relationship* -sexually- ever come back.

        • Yes, it’s dying down. That’s what I meant.

          If you are in a relationship, you’re supposed to grow, together. Learn each other quirks and wishes, even the unspoken ones. Why then, is it impossible to keep the “excitement”? Is excitement for the unknown really the only thing that can spark an interest? I was as attracted to my GF after nearly 10 years as I was in the beginning, however she just grew increasingly indifferent towards me. Is it something wrong with me (and my lust/sex drive?), or is it a fundamental man vs. woman thing?

          • @FlyingKal….

            Maybe women are less suited for monogamy than men?

            From my experience, it is novelty and variety that drives a woman’s sexuality. That novelty and variety is best satisfied via different and multiple sex partners.

            This is just my unscientific view. I think this in part explains why many women can have sex with men with no strings attached. They simply need to find him attractive, safe, and a good lover.



  3. In my mind, I’m standing up and clapping for your comment.

  4. Surely you jest says:


    UM- NOT THE ONES I HAVE KNOWN! I had friends who were average, pretty and downright beautiful.

    They did not neccesarily have sex with a lot of men in their dating lifetime- nor did they have a desire to.

    I am not judging people who want to have sex- or want night stands. I am balking at the blanket statement someone made that attractive women can be counted on having slept with a lot of men.

    I think it is backward- a lot of men might want to sleep with very attractive or beautiful women, but that does not mean those particular women reciprocated.

    Imagine if we all slept with every person we ever found attractive. What would the numbers be?
    And just because someone is attractive- is that enough incentive for everyone to have a roll in the hay?

    For me it certainly isn’t and I am a female.

    Getting back to the point of my girlfriends- from teens to present day- at first it seemed odd that these very attractive, nice females did not get asked out very much.


    Later we learned from some men that they thought they did not have a chance with them- so they never bothered to try.

    I even learned, years later, that certain guys in my High School liked me but never asked me out because they thought they I would not be interested.

    How crazy- some of these guys I actually liked! It makes you wonder what might have been….

    I am unsure why looks equals promiscuity when your values are still your values- regardless of how you look.

    As someone single, with plenty of opportunities over the years to sleep around( a female automatically can get slept with- regardless of looks, sad to say) I was never a one night stand type of person.

    I also don’t believe in sleeping with someone unless you really care about them.

    So let me see, my number is at 4.

    Yes- 4 men and I am in my 40’s.

    If someone likes homely people- great.

    I learned years ago, in my much younger days that I dated guys I wasn’t attracted to( on looks- sometimes personality) because if they walked away- it would not hurt as much when they left.

    It doesn’t make it right- but this is late teen- up to mid 20’s thinking and it has it’s psychological roots in my rejection as a little girl by an important male figure in my life.

    If you expect them to ultimately leave, pick one who won’t matter so much when he is gone. That was my unfortunate way of thinking and coping.

    While it is entirely possible to be into dating or marrying a so called unattractive person, I think beauty or handsomeness, is in the eye of the beholder.

    I also feel personality has a lot to do with how attractive someone is as well.

    Someone who you normally would not give a 2nd look at, can become gradually very attractive as you get to know them.

    You then get turned on to them as a whole because their personality is incredible and meshes so well with your own.

    So while attraction should be there to allow for a sexual connection- I still would never write someone off based on first impressions regarding looks.

    Give any person a chance- some sort of chance to see what their personality is like.

    Unless the person is right off the back- something like the hunchback of Notre Dame or the elephant man.and you just know there is no way in hell you will ever be attracted to them- people should be given a chance.

    I just don’t get the comment someone made about good looking women having lots of sex partners.

    Maybe they have the opportunity to have lots of sex partners because of their looks- it doesn’t mean they seize it.

    I guess all the virginal looking high school cheerleaders were sluts? I mean – really- come on!

    • Very hot “high value” women don’t sleep with a lot of men only because they are in such high demand they normally go from one relationship to another without any time as a single woman. This is especially true if they’ve been considered “hot” since high school. Hot girls who blossom in college or after high school generally seem to have many partners.

  5. Peter von Maidenberg says:

    You don’t have to be all that sexually experienced to be desirable to a man.

    You damn well better to be desirable to a woman.

  6. I do want to say that personally, I’ve had a lot more bad experiences with outwardly or self-proclaimed “nice guys” (as friends and as lovers) than with guys who seem bad on the outside. One was so starved for female attention that he took it at my expense and humiliation. Two were extremely controlling and physically and emotionally abused me (one to the point of stitches). My nice guy male friends look at ex-gf humiliation sites to see if anyone they know is on there when they could just be watching p0rn. Some “neg,” which I hate. I don’t mind this one much, personally, but other girls might–some get very needy or put pressure on you. One had been too shy to meet girls so he had watched so much p0rn that he actually couldn’t perform in bed. My most stable relationships so far have been with guys who are outwardly perceived as bad boys. The first one was with a guy who punched walls, yelled, threw shit, said inappropriate comments, smoked, drank, etc. Although it didn’t work out, we’re still great friends and he’s there for me for anything I need.

    More recently, I was dating and being courted by several guys (as a conventionally attractive woman, I am able to do this). Most of them were nice guys, and most self-proclaimed. I ended up choosing to be with the one who outwardly seems like a bad boy. Not only does this guy have a girlfriend, but a vast history of drug abuse, he’s a womanizer, he’s arrogant, and almost everyone who meets him thinks that he’s an asshole. But I’ve had time to get to know these people (I don’t do casual sex anymore or just first date type things) and, apart from one of the guys who is simply too straight edged for me, this guy is by far the nicest. He treats me better than any “nice guy” ever ever did. He’s protective, strong, sweet, sensitive, gives me all the attention I need, and is loving. It’s easy to say from the outside that someone is a jerk. Did you ever bother to get to know them?

    • @Aya,…

      “My most stable relationships so far have been with guys who are outwardly perceived as bad boys. The first one was with a guy who punched walls, yelled, threw shit, said inappropriate comments, smoked, drank, etc.”

      “I ended up choosing to be with the one who outwardly seems like a bad boy. Not only does this guy have a girlfriend, but a vast history of drug abuse, he’s a womanizer, he’s arrogant, and almost everyone who meets him thinks that he’s an asshole.”

      While my intent is not to offend, these guys sound like thugs and degenerates. But, if you are attracted to these kinds of men, then what does it really say about you? I guess you do not matter that the guy has a girlfriend already and maybe you’re just another woman for him to play?

  7. And I’d like to add. Very few people are “nice” or “bad.” These things fluctuate with time and situation. This goes for all people. There are people out there who think that I’m a huge b*tch and there are people who think that I’m incredibly nice. I’ve been good in some life situations and times and bad in others. It’s not one extreme or the other.

    • @ AYA-

      It can’t possibly be just me, but I have to say this as one woman to another: are you sure you really know the idea of a nice guy?

      Because the examples you gave- the self proclaimed nice guys who actually were not and the bad boys that are bad- but not * that bad*?

      None of these men described sound like good relationship material.

      Or maybe the not so bad bad boys in your own mind are good material for you.

      Everyone has the right to feel they know what is best for them.

      So maybe they meet your needs, even if all the descriptions sound like you have very dysfunctional men in the picture or that have been in the picture in your past.

      Be careful to not repeat a pattern just because the wolf is wearing a different colored sheep’s clothing :-(

      I want to say that I am offering that as a concerned warning. am not passing judgment.

      I have made my own mistakes. Some very stupid- some comical- some a bit dangerous- some rather average poor judgment calls on men I went out with.

      I agree with some points you made; particularly about what you* want vs what you need*, and that what point you are in your life definitely happens to affect this.

      What I wanted at 19 through my 20’s is most probably( in hindsight) not even what I really wanted or needed.

      I thought I wanted a steady boyfriend when in reality, after coming out of a very bad,stifling relationship, I actually wanted freedom. This realization did not sink in at the time so yes, I was boyfriend hunting a lot.

      I notice things don’t tend to happen romantically when you set about it like a serious mission- much like hunting down prey. I think one gives off vibes or has an aura that the opposite sex picks up on.

      Does it smell like desperation? Not sure. It was not like I did not get asked out. I just felt I was being asked out by the wrong guys. But for the guys I was looking for or approached, did they pick up the urgency I had about getting a bf?

      As for your mention of emotionally manipulative or clingy men?

      Oh – gosh- that has to be one of the biggest turn offs for me.

      It is a turn off for most men when a woman is clingy or needy.

      Now picture those qualities in a man-especially if we choose to consider the male stereotype that men are supposed to be very self sufficient/stoic/ independent.

      I don’t buy into stereotypes but I know that for myself- a man who desires to be joined at the hip with me 24/7 and expects me to fufill all his emotional needs etc I am turned off very fast.

      I dated a truly nice guy in my 20’s and it went right down the tubes pretty fast because he was an example of a genuinely nice guy, but he was extremely needy, clingy and tended to actually cry a lot.

      He was also very masculine in other ways- his body build- strength – would not back down from a fight and the type of work he did that was pretty dangerous. I can’t spill details, but each time he went to work, he risked being physically brutalized or worse.

      So this was NOT a wimpy guy. He spoiled me rotten even though I asked him not too do the super kind and generous stuff so much as I knew it was costly and his time, attention and affection were enough. .

      ( That was another issue. Being spoiled is nice. But he did things to the hilt so often, it lost its special meaning after a while. )

      His leaning on my shoulder a lot. Not so much a problem as it was when he became worse in his emotional state. He was starting to have crying jags more and more often.

      There is not thing wrong with a man crying. And I feel men should be able to let go and cry whatever the reason may be.

      But this was a sign of a depression on is part, that was not acknowledged back then.

      I thought he was expressing unhappiness with work and school and his family issues….. now I know he was suffering from depression.
      Which is far more than the blues.

      What made it even harder for me, is that he not only cried- he was leaning on me an awful lot and I, too, was battling my own depression.

      At the time I did not know that was what it was- I just knew i felt horrible. Indescribly horrible/

      Seeing him in pain and crying made my own rotten feelings become magnified. I was helpless to assist him or myself, even if I was not sure what was wrong or how to fix it.

      I was not a crier- too numb from depression to cry. So two people who needed help- nice people- thrown together at the wrong time in life?


      But my gut feeling is that depression or not- he would always be a guy that was needy, clingy always wanting to be with you.

      I like my space and if I don’t get some breathing room, I actually find myself getting cranky from * alone time deprivation*

      Men are not the only one that need a cave. Women caves are desired by plenty of us!

      So there is clingy, needy etc- and then there is someone in crisis or suffering from an emotional disorder. Women need to figure out what you are dealing with when it rears its head.

      I am now questioning what really constitutes a good guy and it seems that maybe we should remove the good guy- good girl label from the dating world and try to find someone who is an exemplary human being to date and hopefully fall in love with.

      Lots of bad boys put on the nice guy facade- some don’t bother too because they know the bad boy allure definitely attracts a certain segment of women.

      I think someone who just acts like themselves is a good bet.

      We need to observe- seriously take notice of the things a person says and does, in order to determine if they are a decent human being. And this observation is not just what goes on between you two. Watch what a person does in public- what they do with family- friends- workers etc and you can get a better gauge of who the person you are dating really is.

      Watch how other react to them. Positively- Negatively?

      If we all look for a kind, sincere human being as a dating partner, then maybe we have found someone we can fall in love with :-)

      • @C.I.M.,…

        This is some terrific advice to any woman. Clearly, you have the depth of experience and know what you’re talking about.

        Yes, we need to seek out decent human beings. Obviously, people prone to violence are not, in my view, decent. But, for some odd reason many women take up with these kinds of men. There is something about these men that seems to excite a lot of women, even if it results in pain and dysfunction to the women.

        So, being a decent human being is just not good enough I suppose. Perhaps, it does not create chemistry or excite and passion with a lot of women.

        Thanks for the terrific and wise commentary.

        Happy Holidays!!!

        • The point of the post was to say that people who consider themselves nice guys aren’t always so nice. That there is much more to see than on the surface. Same goes with guys perceived as jerks. What I’ve noticed a lot of men do is to look at a guy who is with a woman they want or is successful with women in general and hone in on whatever might make them seem like a jerk on the outside. Then, when they look at themselves, they fail to notice qualities and actions that make them not-so-nice. And like I said, I don’t believe in the nice guy/jerk dichotomy. People change throughout their lives and in different situations.

          • Aya

            Who perpetuates this dichotomy more than women when they are asked about their preferences in men? As I said before, ask a few thousand women what kind of a man they want and you’ll have the vast majority of them uttering the same old garbage about nice guys and how difficult it is to find them these days.

            You think men dont want to live in a world where there are no confusions about this issue? We grow up listening to this garbage about nice guys, its every where in the dating advice given to men. So you cant put the whole blame on men.

            Being Nice or Bad cannot cause attractiveness on their own. I wish more men realized this. Men who are attractive/desirable to begin with can get women easily on their own terms. These men then choose to treat them nicely or badly. More often then not, they tend to be bad because they are spoiled. Thats it. That is the nice guy -bad boy conundrum in a nutshell.

            I hate those unattractive men who are worthless in the eyes of women trying to explain their lack of success with women by saying, “hey, Im a nice guy and women only want bad boys, so you cant blame me…” Its so much easier than admitting that he is ugly and has nothing appealing about him at all.

          • @Aya…

            “Same goes with guys perceived as jerks.”

            Yup! Same goes for serial killers, rapists, murderers, and child molesters too.

            I personally do not consider myself to be a “Nice Guy.” Rather I am just a pretty decent human being who believes in and practice empathy, kindness, compassion, and a generous spirit.

            What is nice or bad to one person is different for the other. But, I do know a lot of women, especially young women, are driven by novelty and variety and that which is uncommon.
            I am Black guy and there are white women who want to screw me just for that reason, period. They could care less about my compassion, empathy, kindness…….

  8. Well, it seems * some* men on here put words in my mouth after reading my last post. Words that don’t belong to me- words I would never say or think.

    They also took their anger and biased thinking and applied it to me. Nope- I don’t own that so keep it to yourselves.

    These are the certain men commenting on here, that have such a strong inner rage at women( be it the women of their past- present or in general) that they can barely keep civil on this forum.

    I can actually feel the angry breath coming out of their nostrils as they typed their replies. Replies daring me to answer their accusations.

    Um- not sure what I stand accused of or who I am defending. Womankind? I can’t defend all of womankind because some women are lovely- some are dreadful.

    You think I as a woman would be friends with everyone women I met, just because she is on my team?
    Get real.
    The stench of misogyny was pretty clear and then I realized something: Those angry and misogynistic men probably think they are nice guys.

    Not only that- many of them see themselves as victims- or having been victimized by women.

    They are perfect- there is not one thing wrong with them.
    Which is why they cannot comprehend the lack of dates- or sex.

    Do take another look in the mirror. Are you really that nice?

    I am not a woman who walks around angry at men. But I know hate when I see it, feel it, hear it.

    There is hate being thrown around here.

    For the record, no, I don’t think women should use sex as a weapon.

    If those who read my last post can’t figure out by now that most women like romance with their sex, I can’t help them inculcate that into their brain. Women are wired differently. This is not to say some don’t like plain, raw sex- but as a rule, many like the romantic stuff.

    Stupid me assumed a lot of men were being romantic because they wanted to. Not because there was a bartering exchange going on.

    I will be romantic- if you will sleep with me. Most women, if you sincerely romance them right will dive into your arms and be more than happy to be swept away by passion and make love with you.

    But that is now how some of you painted the picture. You made it like you had to pay for sex( more or less) by being romantic, something you naturally would not do- or don’t really want to do at all.

    If you don’t want to be romantic- find a woman who is into just sex, like yourself.

    It is not my problem if you are pursuing the wrong type of women. I can’t explain to you why your gf or wife suddenly froze you out- too many variables as to why this could happen regardless of whose fault it is.

    Also women DO NOT ALL act like having sex with men is some kind of gift or trophy to dole out. How asinine.

    I thought sex( if had on a loving level) was about kindred souls in physical, emotional and spiritual unity.

    I also thought that if it was sex for the sake of sex, a woman was horny enough to want to enjoy you.

    So what am I missing here – because I certainly got the strong aura of resentment, anger, frustration floating around the forum.

    Never paint with a broad brush- which some of you are doing.

    I won’t do it with men because not only is it wrong, it is illogical.

    But I will say for those guys on here who are convinced they are a good guy but you are actually not as good as you think you are , maybe this article will change your attitude.

    It made sense to me. I have been on this site. Many men start their profiles saying how they are a good guy but can’t seem to meet a decent girl.

    Maybe that is because in their mind they are a good guy- in reality they are not so nice.

    Something to think on- I know I recall many dating sites where guys like this( in article’s examples) were rampant. I wondered how they could NOT see how mean, angry, fresh, rude etc they were being.

    At the same time I give credit to the GENUINE NICE GUYS on dating sites and the GENUINE NICE GUYS I have had exchanges with on TGMP. It has been nice sharing ideas and points of view, you behaved like true gentlemen even if you did not agree on certain points.

    (No comment on the others. They will either recognize themselves or not. One thing is a given a GENUINELY NICE WOMAN is not apt to give them the time of day once they pick up on their foul attitude toward the opposite sex.)

    Good men exist- in abundance. May they meet women who appreciate them for all they are.
    I wish the same for all the truly nice women out there- to find a guy who adores her for her.

    Happy Reading:

    • FlyingKal says:

      I don’t think there’s need for anyone to put words in your mouth.
      Considering the length of your posts, I’m pretty sure you’ve already used all of them… 😉

  9. Nice guys, bad boys… what a load of crap. These articles are great for authors, because they drive a lot of traffic (129 comments and counting on this one… I wonder how many pageviews it generated) while hinting at, but not quite nailing down the truth.

    The truth is that you don’t have to be a bad boy to get laid, and putting on a bad boy costume and using “confident” body language can only take you so far (and it ain’t very far at all). What so-called “nice guys” need to truly understand is that what most nice guys consider jerk behavior is completely different from what women consider jerk behavior. I can’t begin to tell you the number of times I’ve had some dude try to take me to task for the way I supposedly disrespected some girl, only to watch his draw drop as I walked out the bar or house party with her a half hour later.

    In reality, getting girls is dead simple: It’s mostly a combination of being a bit charming/funny/carefree, a bit sexually aggressive, and having strong boundaries. Having a nice body or good style can help, but they are far from being an absolute necessity. Fame and social status factor in as well, but I don’t think they’re nearly as big a factor as some people make them out to be unless you’re only shooting for the top 5% of women in any given market.

    But once you’ve maxed out your looks and developed the right attitude, dating becomes a numbers game… The more women you talk to, the more women you are likely to attract. And here’s where the “bad boy” crap starts to roll in. Most people take offense to the thought that a guy should openly court multiple women before deciding on which one to “bun up” as a serious girlfriend or wife, despite the fact that women do this ALL THE TIME. The biggest difference between so-called bad boys and nice guys is that the bad boys have simply made the decision that his sex life and the quality of his relationships matter more to him the opinion of some random person in his extended social group. Commenter Tim said it best: Most men become jerks AFTER they start having success with women. Not necessarily because they want to, but because dating is largely a “winner take all” sort of thing. If one woman is openly attracted to a guy, you can bet that another half-dozen are secretly pining for him. It’s only natural that somebody’s feelings are going to get hurt.

    Beyond that… nearly everything said about the women wanting bad boys to have sex with and good guys for relationships is complete and utter crap. Oxytocin, the chemical that is released in both men and women during sex, is the most powerful naturally-occurring bonding chemical on the planet. Women generally want to bond with the men they’re having sex with… it’s just that these guys are unwilling to commit to one woman when they have so many other options. Most women, whether they consciously admit to it or not, do indeed “settle” for the nice guy as their general attractiveness starts to wane.

    • @DD..

      Overall, a good concise post DD. I don’t agree with everything, but most of what you say is indeed true. Getting women is about being funny, confident, carefree, and charming…AND sexually aggressive. Women love sexually aggressive men, so long as they are not crude…. Just communicate with body language that you want them sexually…I have learned this after 17+ years of a BS marriage. What a waste.

      You wrote,
      “….nearly everything said about the women wanting bad boys to have sex with and good guys for relationships is complete and utter crap.”

      Then you say,
      “Most women, whether they consciously admit to it or not, do indeed “settle” for the nice guy as their general attractiveness starts to wane.”

      Implicit in YOUR logic IS a preference by women for these so called bad boys/jerks. Women simply have the nice guy as a fall back by default “as their general attractiveness starts to wane.”

      “Women generally want to bond with the men they’re having sex with…”

      Now to me this is utter crap. What about the women who simply want casual sex or one time hookups? Surely, they are not trying to bond with these men. Even the commenter Kat above talked about how she wants nothing to do with the men or women after the one night stand. I know you did say generally, but what about call girls? Right.

      Finally as you and I would probably agree, most men do not have “so many other options.” Just the way it is.


      • Jules,

        I realize this thread is mostly dead now, so I thank you for taking the time to read and respond, so I thought I should take a moment to clarify what I meant.

        You said: Implicit in YOUR logic IS a preference by women for these so called bad boys/jerks. Women simply have the nice guy as a fall back by default “as their general attractiveness starts to wane.”

        This is absolutely what I meant to imply. I think its a myth that women prefer nice guys for relationships. Many simply settle for nice guys after realizing that trying to get an attractive bad boy to settle down is a losing battle. Only the most attractive women (for their age group) will even attempt it past a certain point… and I’ve seen plenty of them — professional, solidly middle or upper-middle-class women with solid upbringings — endure all kinds of relationship transgressions to keep these bad boys around.

        Some women will argue that they’ve never gone for the “bad boy” types, and that may be true… but I’ve rarely seen it play out that way in real life. Most women I’ve heard this from aren’t the type of girls a guy like me would go for anyway (read: they’re rather plain-looking), or don’t even recognize this tendency in themselves since they haven’t been around many truly evil men. The kind of bad boys she likes may be “bad” according to the rules of her particular socio-cultural demographic, but necessarily bad in the societal sense (ie, they are not criminals).

        As far as the casual sex thing… we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Casual sex does happen, but I think it’s incidence is wildly overestimated — especially for women who are out of their early twenties. I’m in my early thirties, but I’ve dated more than a handful of girls in their early 20s this year… and make no mistake, these girls feel like they’re having casual sex out of necessity… not because its something they really want to do. In nearly every case, the guys they want most are naturally the ones they have the hardest time keeping around. So they backwards-rationalize the casual sex thing as an ego protection mechanism. Show them a high-status, attractive guy who’s also willing to stick around, and that casual sex thing goes completely out the window. Been there, done that more times than I care to remember.

        • @DD…

          This is what I believe: the men most women REALLY want to screw and the men they want to marry/settle down with are mutually exclusive. This is why sex is so lousy in marriage and long-term relationships, IMO.

          Now, whether it is as you say (the men they want are not willing to stick around) or by some other “default mechanism”, I really do not know.

          However, no one will ever convince me otherwise. I think the evidence is there for all to see, if only they opened their eyes.

          But, so many people like to PRETEND or “backwards-rationalize.”


  10. I like geeky men :)

  11. John Anderson says:

    @ Davaluri

    “Regarding the bad sex or no sex relationships, and what a raw,sucky deal it is to be in one?


    Your absolutely right, but I think a part of this is due to misplaced “rape culture” and “rape hysteria”. Some people advocate a enthusiastic consent standard for sexual consent, which leaves no room for compromise. If telling your partner that you’re dissatisfied with the sexual aspect of your relationship and saying that you’ll leave if it doesn’t change is equated with rape (pressuring someone for sex), what are his options if he isn’t a rapist? He could break off the relationship without explanation, which would categorize him as a “jerk”. He could lie about his reasons for leaving, which would categorize him as a “jerk”. He could stay in a sexless relationship.


  1. […] research, as reported by The Good Men Project, finds that personality traits named the “dark triad” are correlated with physical […]

Speak Your Mind