The Appeal of “Bad Boys”

 Doctor NerdLove explains that what makes a “bad boy” so appealing isn’t his badness, it’s something even nice guys can do, too.

If there is one thing that men, especially nerdy, geekier men—men more prone to be Nice Guys and White Knights—will complain about when it comes to their dating problems, it’s that women don’t like “nice” men. No, frustrating the millions of men who heard “I wish I could meet a nice guy like you”1 and took it too much to heart is the way that the “bad boy” seems to win women’s hearts and loins.

There is no dating cliche older or more lingering than the appeal of the “bad boy”. One of the most defining characteristics of known rake Lord Byron is that he was famously “mad, bad and dangerous to know”.

Narcissistic. Drug abuser. Self-destructive.Unable to keep it in his pants. Perpetually running out of money. All he needed was to be in a band to get “bad boyfriend” yahtzee.

It’s a subject that I have talked about before: the idea that all women love assholes and that this is programmed into them genetically; after all, assholes are often more “alpha” than the Nice Guys who complain about them, therefore it is their inevitable destiny to fall for them… usually on their backs. Therefore the key to being more attractive is to be “bad”.

It’s a short-sighted solution that builds on a collection of mistaken assumptions reinforced by confirmation bias and poor understanding of human sexuality and evolutionary psychology… but it’s not entirely wrong.

In fact, the appeal of the “bad boy” is something that psychologists and sociologists have been interested in for quite some time. And it seems as though they may have found some interesting answers.

♦◊♦

I Told You I’m A Psycho…

It is unquestionable that men and women with certain negative traits personality traits seem to be more popular. We all remember the Queen Bee at the top of the high-school pecking order; the most popular girl in school, enforcing her will through manipulation and cruelty. Similarly, it seemed as though the douchiest of jocks were inevitably the Big Men on Campus. We can’t stand them… so why do assholes seem so popular?

Well, it turns out that three personality traits known as the “dark triad” are actually associated with being able to enhance a person’s physical attractiveness.

Although admittedly it sounds a lot like the McGuffin that Gannondorf steals in every installment of Legend of Zelda.

The so-called “Dark Triad” consists of three separate but overlapping personality traits – perceived as having similar underlying commonalities:

  1. Narcissism – defined as an overly developed sense of self-worth and entitlement matched with intense egotism.
  2. Machiavellianism – defined by the person’s reliance on manipulation to get what he or she desires without regard to others as well as a cynical dismissal of morality as “for other people”.
  3. Psychopathy – a loaded term; it doesn’t refer to a violent maniac, but to someone defined by reckless thrill-seeking, selfishness, lack of remorse and affect and a certain level of superficial charm

Scientists have known for a while that narcissism—for example—actually has direct correlation with initial popularity. In fact, a study conducted in 2010 by Mitja Back and Boris Egloff of Johannes Gutenberg—University of Mainz found that, upon first meeting them, people thought that narcissistic individuals were “flashier”, “more confident” and more immediately likable.
What made things interesting is a new study, conducted in 2012 by Nick Holtzman and Michael Strube of Washington University in St. Louis found that individuals whose personality types conformed to the dark triad were perceived as being physically more attractive than people who didn’t have darker personality aspects.

To test this idea, Holtzman and Strube invited 111 college students to participate in a study. The students – more women than men – were photographed in their usual clothes, then given grey, featureless sweatsuits to change into. Anyone wearing make-up was asked to remove it while anyone with long hair was asked to pull it into a ponytail. The idea was to take as neutral and natural a photo of the participants as possible as a control. Students were asked to answer a questionaire and rate themselves on a personality scale. To help counterbalance any errors introduced by self-reporting, Strube and Holtzman alsointerviewed acquaintances of the subjects about their personalities. From these results, the subjects were rated and scored with relation to dark triad personality types.

The photos of the subjects—both the dressed up and neutral shots—were then shown to strangers, who were asked to rate them in terms of physical attractiveness. Those who scored higher on the dark triad were consistently found to be more attractive by strangers than those who rated lower… but only when they were dressed up. When all of the subjects were wearing the sweat-suits and showing their more natural look, the influence of the dark triad personality type disappeared.

Heeeeyooooo… I got my haaaaaalo….

As it turns out, those individuals who ranked higher on the dark triad scale were better at making a better presenting themselves and knowing how to make themselves look better. Just as with the earlier narcissism study, those with darker personality traits were better able to cultivate their sense of style. They tend to wear edgier, more stylish clothes that make them stand out more2, wear a more fashionable hair style, have more confident body language and smiled more.

In short: they know how to make a better first impression than other people do. By knowing how to display themselves to their best advantage, they made themselves look better. By doing so, they take advantage of a phenomenon known as the “halo effect”: because they are perceived as being more physically attractive, we automatically assume that they’re also better people – kinder, smarter, more trustworthy, etc.

As a result: the more psychopathic or narcissistic you are, the better you are at conning people into thinking you’re actually a good person.
Y’know. Deep down.

Possibly very deep down.

So clearly the key to success in dating is to learn to become a functioning sociopath, right?
Wrong.

 

Also, There Are Downsides…

One thing that the Black-Etjoff study found is that the those people with dark triad personalities may make for great initial impressions but lousy long-term ones. In fact, their personal popularity tends to drop the more people get to know the real person behind the flash and smoke.

Y’see, the dark triad personality types are pre-disposed to short-term goals and thinking; they focus on immediate goals (“How do I get her in bed?”) and less on long term ones (“How do I get her to go out with me again?”) which hinders them in the long term… including financially. They’re much more likely to go for the immediate (and smaller) reward than for planning for a future (and bigger) one. They’re prone to stealing partners from others and are more likely to have substance-abuse issues and are known for having lowered standards—sometimes drastically—for sexual partners. The dark triad also has a correlation with excessive agression towards others, bullying behavior and racist attitudes.

It’s almost impossible to keep the charade up for very long; inevitably people will start seeing the man behind the mask and start realizing that he’s actually pretty damn repulsive.

This makes it rather difficult to maintain relationships for very long. Even if you’re willing to sacrifice the long term relationship on the altar of more frequent, no-commitment sex, people talk and social circles are smaller than you’d think. It doesn’t take very long for a reputation for being an asshole to spread and effectively limit your available dating pool.  Similarly, this is not behavior that ages well; time and gravity make fools of us all eventually and what can seem charmingly rakish at 20 quickly becomes boorish at 3o and just embarrassing at 40.

 

Finding Your Creamy Bastard Center

It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.

This, in case you haven’t been paying attention, means that you can cultivate these traits to your own advantage without the negative aspects that come with them.

A person’s physical attractiveness isn’t binary; it can be affected by something as minor as overhead lighting vs. indirect lighting. Simple changes in posture can alter people’s perception of a person’s attractiveness. Even people who are considered conventionally beautiful often benefit from some external help.

Never underestimate the power of foundation and blush.

The people with high dark triad scores knew how to make a better first impression by crafting their look to their best advantage.

You can do this too.

 

Find Your Archetype:

Start by figuring out what your sexy stereotype is. Are you a rocker or a business tycoon? Do you aspire to be a modern dandy like Andre 3000 or are you more of a Mod? Find a base line look that’s congruent with your identity and use this as the foundation for everything else.

Cultivate Your Style:

Be willing to stand out and make a statement. Cultivate a style in line with your archetype and make it your own. This means that you have to be willing to take some risks and break out of clothes that—while psychologically comfortable—cause you to blend in with the herd. You may feel like you’re playing dress-up at first, but the more you try, the more natural you will find that it becomes.

Make Sure Your Clothes Fit Right:

Seriously, I can’t emphasize this enough. Clothes that are too baggy or too small make you look bad. Period.

Use Confident Body Language:

Narcissists, psychopaths and Machiavellians aren’t shrinking violets; they stand up tall and take up space. They want people know that they’re there. Everything about them screams “confidence”—their body language most of all. Even if you’re not feeling confident, adopting confident body language—standing up straight, letting your limbs relax, moving deliberately and with purpose—will help you fake it. Even more importantly, using more confident body language will make you feel more confident… and confidence is sexy.

SMILE.

For fuck’s sake, smile. A big, genuine smile that reaches your eyes. A friendly smile makes you much more attractive than a blank affect or trying to look “serious”. Part of George Clooney’s appeal is that grin—equal parts friendliness and mischief that promises stories you’ll be telling for years to come.

“Bad boys” may be attractive at the first glance, but only because they know how to sell themselves up front. They have to; they have no long game and they know it. The more skilled you become at creating an immediate positive impression in others the more of a leg up that you’ll have over those bad boys. You’ll soon find that you’re having levels of success that they could only dream of.

Not only will you have the style to make that great first impression… but you’ll have the substance to back it up.

 

  1. And ignored the silent “…who I would be interested in fucking.” []
  2. known as peacocking in PUA circles []

Originally appeared at Paging Doctor NerdLove

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Lead photo courtesy of Flickr/Marco Raaphorst

All other photos courtesy of Paging Doctor NerdLove

About Harris O'Malley

Harris O'Malley provides geek dating advice at his blog Paging Dr. NerdLove, as well as writing the occasional guest review for Spill.com and appearing on the podcast The League of Extremely Ordinary Gentlemen. He can be found dispensing snark and advice on Facebook and Twitter (@DrNerdLove.)

Dr. NerdLove is not really a doctor.

Comments

  1. Oh how do I love this article, let me count the ways :) on a psychological level I know these people who speak about. You hit the issue head on—especially so of the Dark Triad personality type that after a while appears to be …just a cocky, arrogant you know what. But, all in all we (women) fall for this type. What a shame! I’ve done it too! Thanks for the good read.

  2. “Bad boys” may be attractive at the first glance, but only because they know how to sell themselves up front. They have to; they have no long game and they know it.

    Or, they don’t have any long game because they don’t have to…?

    • Exactly. It is only a matter of willingness, rather than ability.

      Bad boys get both options. They get to have their fun AND they have long term relationships and make families too. Just like every ordinary woman gets both options.

  3. So, basically what you are saying is that the attractive “bad boys” aren’t all that bad, per se.
    They are just psychopathic or narcissistic instead.
    Yeah, that make all the sense now…


  4. It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.

    Staying away from women that fail to recognize this would be helpful to guys that are trying to find their own groove as well. Because honestly some women just cannot or will not see the difference. Don’t get hung up on them.

  5. “those individuals who ranked higher on the dark triad scale were better at making a better presenting themselves and knowing how to make themselves look better…. In short: they know how to make a better first impression.”

    Agreed. But I notice that Dr. Nerdlove kinda zoomed past the obvious consequence: the first impression is the only chance that ANY of us, nice or nasty, ever get.

    “People with dark triad personalities may make for great initial impressions but lousy long-term ones. In fact, their personal popularity tends to drop the more people get to know the real person behind the flash and smoke.”

    And in order for her to get to know you, you had to make a positive first impression. The “dark triad” guys get that opportunity–the guys who didn’t never get a chance to show their better qualities that make for better long-term relationships, because they got eliminated at Step One.

    “It’s almost impossible to keep the charade up for very long.”

    But they keep it up just long enough to win the initial battle, after which there’s no competition… because the guys who AREN’T manipulative, selfish, narcissists have already been eliminated. First impression = ONLY impression.

    This makes it rather difficult to maintain relationships for very long.

    Read more at http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-appeal-of-bad-boys/#TdpJRD7Kbs9qqOKK.99

    • many bells and whistles are going off due to the correctness of this response.

      I had many girls be interested in me or really be into me after prolonged exposure (coworkers, classmates (college), just happened to be in the same social circle). Once these women got to (shock!) actually know me, and not just judge me on a first impression they actually started to like me and find me attractive.

      Let me now count the number of women who liked me at first meeting me, easy, two. Two out of the several dozens of women I tried to talk to actually were interested in me after a first impression. When I was “Internet” dating (Match and Yahoo Personals) I went out of quite few dates. Let me now count the number of second dates I ever had from that. ZERO.

      Short of kidnapping and locking these women up how was I supposed to make any type of long-term impression with these women? If we aren’t talking about coworkers or classmates than all that matters is the first impression! I knew my wife nine years before we even started dating, and she’s the first to admit the first time she met me she thought I was unattractive and not very interesting. Nine years after meeting someone probably isn’t going to happen for most people. Please let me know how there is any downside to the “dark triad”. They get what they want at the beginning and that’s all that matters because the momentum carries them into relationships anyway.

  6. Bay Area Guy says:

    The way I see it, guys should simply avoid the types of women who fall for bad boys or bad boy traits.

    Those women are either immature, insecure, or extremely shallow.

    It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.

    Now there is one of the greatest apologetics for questionable female behavior if I’ve ever seen one.

    Let’s turn this around, shall we?

    “Men aren’t inherently attracted to young, hot 10’s. It’s just that certain traits men find attractive are often found in young, hot women.”

    Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it?

    • Yes.

      • There’s a difference, though. As a man you CAN take steps to work on your confidence, smile more, buy new clothes, and figure out who you are. As a woman, there is literally nothing you can do to stay 18 forever. There is no science for that. Nothing you can do.

        • You know damn well you dont need to be an 18 yr old to attract men.
          Im sure my 49 yr old mom can get laid easier than me (a 26 yr old guy)

        • Pray tell, then, what do you do to work on your confidence when every time you say “Hi” to someone they look straight through you as if you didn’t exist, and then walk over to stand in the crowd around that loud-mouth “jock” over there loving nothing more than the sound of his own voice…

    • I’m not actually sure it sounds that ridiculous.

      Sometime between the ages of 21 and 26 I stopped finding 18 years old attractive, no matter how conventionally “hot” they were. At a certain point, having a “perfect 10” body shape just wasn’t going to make up for the immaturity that inherently comes with being 18.

      Looking at some of the other replies, notably Sarah’s, it seems like women might go through a similar process: dating the guys at 21 that they wouldn’t consider by 27.

      In some sense it’s not fair because society still stereotypes men as willing to go for 18 year olds no matter what, and that deserves discussion, but is also means that the statement “Men aren’t inherently attracted to young, hot 10’s” is completely true.

      • Women like to perpetuate this BS basically. They get a lot of sympathy for it. They love to PRETEND they are more forgiving to men on their looks. They love to pretend fat women have it worse than fat men in the dating/sexual scene. Its the other way round in reality

        They look at stick thin youthful models parading on their TV screens and like to beleive that men in real world, also dont want anything less than that. Nothing is far from reality.

    • I’d actually say the statement works with the same exact words and the genders replaced:

      “It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to [men], it’s that traits that [men] find attractive are frequently found in [bitches] and narcissists.”

      I’ve seen many a dating book titled “Why Men Love Bitches” and the like. The men I know don’t like bitches, but there are very few conventionally attractive bitchy women I know that have any trouble finding dates. It’s the same for conventionally attractive assholes. Can we just agree that there are a whole lot of people out there we would never want to date because they fall for assholes/bitches? I wouldn’t be interested in a man that fell for that type of woman, so it’s not even worth lamenting over it. So I don’t know why men lament over the fact that they’ve lost a chance with the sort of woman who dates assholes. You’re probably better off for it, I think.

  7. Sorry to break this to you but, people continue to be attracted to bad boys because of those traits even after they get to know them more.
    People wish the attraction of a bad boy didn’t last, but they go on to have a girlfriend, get married and even have kids.

  8. I said this in the casual sex thread but I like the stereotypical bad boy for a one night stand because of all those qualities. When all I am looking for is a quick no strings attached hook up I want that arrogant narcissist. I don’t want to peel off the layers to get to know someone in that context. I don’t particularly care about who they are on the inside. The less work the better for me for a one night stand.

    For a relationship I’m more likely to go for the nice guy. Because I have time to peel back layers. In fact typically I don’t even consider a bad boy for a relationship if that’s how he first presents to me. When I feel like I’m open to a relationship I will go looking for nice guys. I hit on them. I work on getting to know them and conversations. Do the dating thing. It’s really hard to find where nice guys congregate honestly (I don’t do the bar scene that much and we don’t have stuff like coffee shops etc. where I live).

    But I’ll own. I do go for the bad boy for the strictly casual stuff.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Thank you for owning this. It’s very refreshing to see this openly discussed. I think it’s great that you point out that some women are looking for different things in different situations. The same person may be attracted to different kinds of things at different times.

    • Dr. Anonymous says:

      And then you complain that the sex was unsatisfying because he only focused on himself, and go out telling other men that they should focus more on the woman, because that would lead to more casual sex.

      • I’ve never complained that the sex was unsatisfying. For a one night stand the sex is, for me, usually quite satisfying because realistically in a one night stand situation I’m focusing on me. He can focus on him. In a relationship that would get old but I’m not looking for a relationship with the bad boy. Just a few hours of his time.

        • elementary_watson says:

          Well, if we assume that Dr. Anonymous used the general you, he does have a point: I’ve read several articles which boiled down to “Men, you want more women to be up for casual sex? Stop being seflish in bed!!One!Eleven!”

          Except that there may be a chicken/egg problem: Did female preferences kick the nice guys out of the casual sex game, or did women who dig nice guys get frustrated with the casual sex game after meating one bad boy too much?

    • elementary_watson says:

      Glad that you’re owning it, but un-glad that this means that nice guys are pretty much out of the casual sex game, if this is attitude is common amongst women (which I guess it is, at least among those women who are into casual sex).

      I don’t know if I’m that nice of a guy (but I mostly try to be friendly towards the people I interact with), and I’m certainly not long term relationship material, but if I were both of these things, I would feel less than flattered, probably even insulted, to learn that I was the kind of guy my partner would never have a one night stand with because of my lack of bad boy-ishness. I’d get the impression that my partner considers me to be boring but stable, kind of like a nutritional broccoli compared to the delicious juicy bad boy steaks.

      The way you worded makes me wonder whether you regularly go from long term relationships (with nice men) to phases of wild one night stands (with bad boys), or whether you just consider a long term relationship for some time in the future, when you will make sure that the guy is no bad boy. Actually, I’m wondering about a lot of aspects of your sex life that are none of my business, apologies.

      • I don’t typically hop from a relationship to sleeping around. I also go through periods of no sex and work on other stuff in my life. I’ve been busy with my career and college for the last while primarily where I couldn’t give a long term relationship or really any partner the attention that is deserved. Instead of being neglectful and trying to have it all so to speak I decided to focus on other stuff for awhile which has lent itself nicely to casual relationships. There have been some interludes between stints in college and at one point where a job mellowed out where I did go looking for a LTR but then got busy again. In my younger days I was more into open relationships and swinging relationships which also melded well with the one night stand world. Over the years I’ve examined at length what I look for in different situations instead of repeatedly trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

        I have a few reasons why I don’t like to do casual sexual relationships with nice guys (and it hasn’t been for lack of trying). Where I am lots of the nice guys tend to also be the shy guys. I have limited time on my hands and just as a practical thing not enough time to try to work the shy guy out of a shell. Lots of nice guys want me to know them as a person before sex (just like lots of nice women do I found… I have this same problem with nice women). While that works for a relationship I don’t really want to have these heart to hearts with people that are just going to be a one night stand. Lots of nice guys where I am (this may not be the universal rule hence why I qualify it) have a propensity to get attached. I’m not having casual sex to cause pain to people and having to tell someone who genuinely gets attached that really they were only fun for a night sucks. The dark triad people tend to not get attached, they don’t want to know me or me to know them beyond some surface stuff, are charismatic and don’t need to be shaken out of a shell. They just make a nice neat package deal for casual sex. But boy do they suck at relationships.

        And it’s not that nice guys are like broccoli so much as really the bad boys suck for relationships. And they really aren’t that great in the long term sex department either. A night of narcissistic sex between two strangers is great. A relationship full of it not so much. The sex I have during a casual encounter is not the same sex I have in a relationship (not that the relationship lacks passion but it’s different I give more and ask less in the relationship confines… totally doesn’t work with a bad boy). A nice guy is just as able to have a back bone and an edge and some dark triad traits but he is not a through and through that bad boy person. It’s not the extent of his personality in my experience. I gravitate to the nice guy for relationship for their multiple dimensions that I have the time to get to know instead of the one dimension of the bad boy.

        • I think this is interesting — I’ve never intentionally sought out casual sex or one night stands, or at least not since my early college days where I had a couple drunken, guilt-filled hookups. If I did decide that I wanted to find a guy for a one night stand, what qualities would I look for? I suppose I’d want a guy who was very attractive, who could show me a good time without a lot of hassle and not cause me any complications later. So I see where you are coming from. This is really no different that pickup artists who study how to target (a) the most physically attractive women (because why have casual sex with a homely woman, no matter how great a person she is, right? And (b) who are open to casual encounters (because you don’t want to waste time or have drama later when she feels attached).

          • elementary_watson says:

            I suppose I’d want a guy who was very attractive, who could show me a good time without a lot of hassle and not cause me any complications later.

            I just gotta ask: Are narcissistic macho posturing and sexual prowess in bed really that positively correlated, in women’s experience?

            I mean, I would have thought that a polite man who shows that he delights in giving pleasure to women would generally be a better lover, no matter if for one hour or for six months, than a jerk who wears his egotism on his sleeve. And wouldn’t cause anymore hassle than that drunken dude not waking up next to you next morning …

            Also, looking for casual sex partners based on nothing but looks and the apparent ease of getting rid of them seems like a stupid concept to me, or at least an alien one: If someone has a personality that I find totally grating, I don’t want to spend any time with them, no matter how hot they look, no matter what they would do with me in bed (and, again, I doubt any strong correlation between sexy looks and actual sexual skills).

            • well the thing is, I don’t look for casual encounters so I’m mostly speculating. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I did date several bad boy brooding musicians in my 20’s, but after that, I’ve tended to be in relationships with shyer, nerdier types of guys. I am, myself, a huge geek. This is the thing. Sex with a shy, insecure guy can be amazing — eventually. But my experience, it takes some patience to work through someone’s sexual insecurity, hangups and bad past experiences. My relationship with my current boyfriend took a long time to get started. He didn’t try to initiate sex anything physical until had been hanging out casually for 2 months. I actually had concluded he had no physical attraction for me and we were just friends. However, I was willing to make it romantic and see what happened. It was another 6 weeks before we had sex and it took about 3 months of regular sex before he could really relax and enjoy himself. We had to talk a lot about his sexual issues and some of his baggage from past relationships. Like a lot of guys with his personality type, he overthinks and intellectualizes everything. Today, we have absolutely amazing sex but it was a lot of effort to get there. He is an incredibly giving and unselfish lover and I love it. But the fact is, a lot of women would have given up on him and I have no doubt that’s a large part of his problems with women in the past. It was a lot of effort for me. He is actually a very physically attractive guy — 6’3″, built like a football player, great head of hair in his 40’s, beautiful eyes. Women flirt with him all the time. But he’d be tough to have a one night stand with. He’d miss all the signals and he wouldn’t know how to react. I bet women have tried to get him
              in bed and he didn’t even know it.

        • elementary_watson says:

          Thanks for your reply. I think it would make a difference to me if I were a nice guy who got into a relationship with someone who follows your philosophy that you actually made experiences when trying to hook up with nice men that showed you that it would only work in the long run.

          In other words: Hearing “Getting people like you to have casual sex is complex, and I only go for casual sex when I don’t have the time/energy for complexity in sexual matters” would make me feel like the game of go compared to bad boys being something more like Yahtzee. Far better :)

        • @Kat…

          I guess it kind of begs the question: Why would a nice man really want to be bothered with you at all. After all, you did not have the time to invest in him, so why should he invest his time in you?

          The reason these men are sexually awkward is because of a lack of sexual experience. But, I guess because women want what they want, when they want it, and feel entitled to such, they have no time for such men.

          But, when they feel their shelf life is nearing an end, they have all the patience in the world for these nice boys. Honestly, even after marriage women like yourself still have little patience or desire for the nice boys. Just ask the hoards of unhappy married men who are in sexless marriages suffering torment.

          I know that is the way it is. But, I think it is really horrible.

          • As I’ve said on other threads here, people constantly say that women get older and “figure it out” and are no longer interested in “bad boys”. This is very false. Women who love “bad boys” actually never figure it out. What happens is they age out of the age that the Alpha bad boys want. The women find out that once they are late 20s and 30s the “bad boys” (who they really are attracted to) are now dating the latest crop of 18-25 year olds.

            After that the women marry a “nice guy” and eventually become totally bored with them. They are cold to them sexually (because there’s no bad boy excitement), and eventually there is a divorce.

            These type of women don’t “figure it out” they just get too old for their beloved “bad boys” to want them anymore.

      • @elementary_watson

        “I’d get the impression that my partner considers me to be boring but stable, kind of like a nutritional broccoli compared to the delicious juicy bad boy steaks.”

        Yes, this is EXACTLY how these women see it. But of course they “love” you. So, even in the relationship they still do focus on themselves sexually. You are an afterthought. You will get sex only when she wants it (which will be infrequently). And the sex is going to be uninspired and lack enthusiasm.

    • @Kat…

      Thanks for being open and honest. Very very rare for women, in general.

      As I have learned the hard way in life, there are men whom women just want to screw. And there are men whom women want relationships and marriage. Usually, they are opposites.

      I am not criticizing this state of affairs. This is just the way it is. Oh well.

      I am a high status male but not a bad boy. Never been a womanizer…..Married 17 years and it was sexless and shitty.

      My only criticism is that women such as yourself admittedly want a nice guy for a relationship or marriage. Fine. OK. But, why is that women such as yourself are uninspired to perform sexually for these nice guys as you did for the bad boys?

      I just honestly wished a lot of women would stick to marrying the guys they REALLY want to fuck instead of getting the nice guys and treating them like shit sexually.

      JMO.

    • Aren’t you lucky you have the choice of casual sex or a relationship, or neither, as you like. We men wish we did, too.

  9. Inherently we have good and bad traits; it is how it’s used that comes across that defines the term. The difference is how morals are carried. The reason why we are so interested in bad boys/girls is their ability to get away with non-conformity while tending to look conformed to society. That is what makes them appealing. However, once you delve inside and they are figured out, they are like Superman hit with Kryptonite.

    Appearance is nothing as it goes away with time.

    I had dated both nice and bad boys before, and I lean towards long term goals since I am one myself- I prefer nerds especially ones that have glasses, to me they are the biggest teddy bears- but again it’s the personality inside that matters most.
    I do occasionally get to meet a bad boy who would try and seduce me. I think bad boys are the ones that have less happiness and confidence in themselves as to why they end up being seduced instead. And it’s very hard to leave as they tend to be clingy or raving mad at me afterwards.

    • Well Marifosque, you’re correct… non-conformity is an issue w/ the attraction to bad boys :) let’s even take this further and go back to James Dean—the one pic where he’s shown looking like a bad boy, women in those days loved it. Or even further back was the bad boy “Cowboy” which the Marlboro Man falls into this category. Women were able to escape the hands of the good guy, but fantasized about the bad guy from the images that were shown. I’m sure this had something to do with it.

  10. wellokaythen says:

    Sometimes I think the attraction to “bad boys” is not so much being drawn to what they do but being repulsed by the things they don’t do but other men do. It’s partly the fact that cocky behavior suggests that the man will NOT behave in some other ways that are real turnoffs. It’s being drawn to a lack of negatives maybe as much as being drawn to a positive.

    For example, the cocky narcissist or psychopath will probably not overwhelm you with whining about his life. He won’t look for you to fix his life or become his mother. When you’re done with him, you can count on him to move on without lingering or smothering you. It may be really hard to hurt his feelings. Sensitivity may be attractive, but oversensitivity usually isn’t. If you’re looking for a relationship with no strings attached, the ‘bad boy’ is probably tailor-made for you, because he probably is looking for the same thing.

    There is often a feeling of authenticity with men who are assholes and don’t seem to care that they are. They could be manipulative liars, but they are more likely to be “what you see is what you get.” If you’re looking for a wolf, it’s better to find one in wolf’s clothing than one in sheep’s clothing.

    Then again, never underestimate people’s desire to fix a man, rehabilitate him, or make him worthy of someone else’s love. That may also be part of the attraction to bad boys.

    • Dr. Anonymous says:

      “For example, the cocky narcissist or psychopath will probably not overwhelm you with whining about his life. He won’t look for you to fix his life or become his mother”

      I hear you have never met a narcissist. A narcissist will be totally absorbed with their failures and how it is always the fault of someone else that they failed.

      • wellokaythen says:

        To my mind there are different kinds of narcissists. There’s the moody, emotional black pit narcissist who will spend everyone’s attention rehashing his morose feelings. That sounds like the kind you mentioned. Then there’s the kind that I was thinking of, the cocky narcissist who appears to have very few feelings whatsoever, who is incapable of devoting any time to anything that sounds to him like whining. He’s too busy trying to get everything he wants out of other people to waste time on self-examination.

  11. I have dated nice guys and bad boys. My college boyfriend was very clingy, and after we broke up, he became obsessed with our breakup and practically stalked me for several years. That scarec me for awhile. I went through a phase in my 20’s where I only dated brooding musician types. Talk about narcissists! but at least I never had to worry that a breakup would crush them. However, their self involvement got tiring.

    Bad boys can be exciting but they are horrible in relationships. I got sick of the drama and the insensitivity, the drinking, the temper tantrums, the craziness. The thing with bad boys, they are never boring. The best partner is a good boy with a little bit of a bad side, just for fun.

    • I can see how Dr NerdLove weighs his words carefully, sugar coats them, before talking.

      • Feminists, and women generally, acknowledge the appeal of badboys, very reluctantly and grudgingly, if at all.

        It is therefore atleast refreshing to see a pro-feminist dating expert not only acknowledging this reality but actually encouraging men to adopt the traits of bad boys.

        Although I agree there are some inaccuracies in this article.

    • @ Sarah “The best partner is a good boy with a little bit of a bad side, just for fun.”

      Thing is you don’t determine what a guy does with his bad side, there are gonna be times when you’ll see his “bad side” as a negative and a positive.

      @wellokaythen “There is often a feeling of authenticity with men who are assholes and don’t seem to care that they are. They could be manipulative liars, but they are more likely to be “what you see is what you get.” If you’re looking for a wolf, it’s better to find one in wolf’s clothing than one in sheep’s clothing.”

      Society wants honesty at certain times but also wants discretion at certain times.

      For every woman who’s asked for honesty, there’s a guy who’s been honest and received shame and ridicule because of it.
      The bad boy doesn’t care if people aren’t ok with his honesty at certain times.
      They don’t care what people think, and that’s a trait every man should adopt if he wants to be successful with woman.

    • “The thing with bad boys, they are never boring.”

      Yes, the very common female belief that every minute of life is supposed to be a huge life changing adventure. When I had a Match profile I remember that nearly all women’s profiles talked about trips, adventures, outings, and not a lot about real life. It seems they expected life to be a never ending vacation. Of course the regular or “nice guy” is grounded in real life so they don’t bring any adventure to the table.

      Two stories:
      My first girlfriend in college told me I was the first “nice guy” she had ever dated. One and a half years in she starts complaining that I’m boring and starts cheating on me. Because I was a “nice guy” sap (and because she was my first GF every) I forgave her, but she eventually cheated again, once again saying I didn’t do anything exciting for her and I was boring. The last guy she cheated with brought her lots of adventure. He fought with her in public, followed her around town, got her pregnant, ended up punching her brother in the hospital the night she gave birth, and then moved away to another city never to be seen again saying “I’m not responsible for that kid”. I’m very happy she found all the fun and adventure I was never able to give her.
      Had a friend in college who was also a really good guy. Was with his GF for three years when she eventually tells him “you’re boring” and breaks up with him. Of course she had already met a “bad boy” where she worked and started dating him. He gets her pregnant and even at one point shoved her out of a moving car while pregnant. Of course she stayed with him. Adventure!

      American women’s love of “bad boys” comes down to the unrealistic expectations they have for how “real life” is supposed to go. I think all this biology talk is a just trying to legitimize the childish view of life many woman have.

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        Yes, the very common female belief that every minute of life is supposed to be a huge life changing adventure…American women’s love of “bad boys” comes down to the unrealistic expectations they have for how “real life” is supposed to go. I think all this biology talk is a just trying to legitimize the childish view of life many woman have.

        I’ve never really thought about it that way, but now that you say it, that makes perfect sense.

        I once heard a story from some guy on another blog about a how a young woman his friend knew was set up on a date by her parents with a guy. Even though he was a perfectly decent guy, she wasn’t “feeling him” and flat-out rejected him. She eventually ended up with him because her mom pressured him to give him a chance. She ended up marrying him, and is now in a happy marriage.

        As described by that commenter, it seems that many young women have unrealistic views about life and romance, and will completely ignore an otherwise good guy is he doesn’t have some kind of “swept off my feet” quality.

        It’s as if women expect their dating lives to be something out of an exciting romance novel.

      • By “bad boys are never boring”, I meant that they are unpredictable and therefore interesting, at least initially. After awhile, you realize that the patterns start to repeat (often destructively). The moodiness isn’t depth, it’s bipolar disorder. Skipping work because you partied all night doesn’t make you a free spirit, it makes you irresponsible. Having emotional meltdowns just means you probably need therapy to work through your childhood issues. The thing is, bad boys (and girls) create emotional drama that can be mistaken for an exciting zest for life.

  12. My SO and I have talked about this, or I should say she’s talked and said more than I think she knows. We’ve had this conversation twice. Both times there’s been some contextual prompt like a TV show or news of some male celebrity being…..bad.

    She described the appeal of “bad boys” and her description was like Kat’s above. She had a series of flings with men she described as exciting, almost like thrill rides. She tried making a marriage work with one, and I suspect that experience and age and serendipity led her to me.

    Each time this brief talk ended the same way. Looking at me tenderly but a bit quizzically, she said we probably wouldn’t been attracted to each other when we were younger. I didn’t speak or change expressions and just looked at her and the irony of her assumption about my feelings. A few seconds passed in silence, and she then said, “No, we were different then.”

    Neither time did I correct her. She seems to need to believe that what she said was as true for me as it was for her, and I suppose I need her to believe it too. Me, the gently spinning carousel she truly loves, turning in the shadow of a kick ass roller coaster.

    • @Adrian…

      “I suspect that experience and age and serendipity led her to me.”

      What’s really hideous about this you are essentially a default guy for her. In essence, you have acknowledged that you are a second class citizen.

      Once a woman has been on that “kick ass roller coaster” they never forget the thrill. That why they never bring the enthusiasm for sex to men who are like “gently spinning carousel.”

      Don’t kid yourself!

    • Sometimes it takes a while to realize what you truly want. As an inexperienced 19 year old, I had ideas, but it does take growing pains, experience, and life to figure out who and what fits you. There are people and situations I would have never considered when younger but would now–not any weird bad boy thing, but just a more open view of the world. I used to scoff and turn my head up at jocks and frat boy types. Now I know that they’re people too, who could have many layers. Heck, I didn’t even know what I wanted my major to be at 19. Not only that, but there are relationships that never would have worked when we were younger. I wasn’t ready in college for the kind of relationship that I’m ready for now. I would have been too immature and confused. I would have seen the grass as always greener. And likely, the guy would have too. I’ve seen young, inexperienced “nice guys” do just this. And to relish any type of female attention so much that they’re willing to hurt their partner.

  13. Dr. Anonymous says:

    And then you complain that the sex was unsatisfying because he only focused on himself, and go out telling other men that they should focus more on the woman, because that would lead to more ca

  14. Mr Supertypo says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdEXA1ceaA

    The PUA’s have their own explanation about why women are attracted to the bad boys. It seems when men (or most of them) enjoy being the rescuer, women love being the fixer.

  15. That’s pretty much the size of it: part looks, part confidence. You need that to even get your foot in the door, so to speak: nice isn’t even a factor until that point.

    It’s really the same the other way. How many guys go looking for a “nice” girlfriend among the insecure and homely chicks? Only really insecure, homely guys.

    • @Evie….

      Believe it or not, I really like homely women. So long as they have not let themselves go, I find them very attractive. Also, they are more honest, loyal, and caring.

      I have never been a man who cared to go after “hot” women. Most of these women have slept with tons of men. I will pass. No interest whatsoever.

      One of my FWB is a very conservative and homely dressing woman. She wears no make up and has a very simple hair style. But to me she is attractive and pretty. She loves sex and we are great sex partners and friends. She is very intelligent (a pharmacist) and loves to read…

      I would much rather have this woman any day than these so called hot high mileage women.

  16. Bay Area Guy says:

    It’s really the same the other way. How many guys go looking for a “nice” girlfriend among the insecure and homely chicks? Only really insecure, homely guys.

    Not really.

    As long as a woman is somewhat good looking, most guys are going to at least give her a chance. Maybe later on they’ll decide that her bad personality isn’t worth it, but she’ll at least have a chance.

    If a guy has any kind of shyness of insecurity, he will forever be lonely, even if he’s good looking.

  17. WilliamHenry says:

    My intern is a young female engineering student who is very bright and attractive. I noticed the other day that she seemed a bit less upbeat than usual. Late in the day she came to my office and asked me for some advice about men (shock). She is 22 and I am 47 so I told her I couldn’t possibly relate to any issues she might be having in her personal life and wasn’t certain it was appropriate for us to discuss personal matters. She was very upset and asked (anyway) what was wrong with her and men. That she had a string of unsuccessful relationships I asked about the types of men that she was interested in and she described exactly the type of man mentioned in the article as being “dark triad”. I work with many types of men like this and I can certainly confirm that these men are often quite successful at getting what they want. The downside to these types are also as mentioned in the article, they usually are unable to commit long term to anything. I advised her, as I have my own adult daughters, that in the past, when those characteristics in a male were desirable as the female would have an inherent interest in mating with a male who could protect her and her children. That was a long time ago. Today, in the modern world, men who are well grounded in their careers and have long term goals are the ones that will provide long term stability. I am sure that was difficult for her understand considering her generation is one of instant gratification.

  18. i remember the whole madonna/whore thing that people slinged on men. That this is a sexual dysfunction.
    Can we say the same thing about Nice guys/bad boys?
    That women se average men as so disposable that they that a man have to be so far out tére to even get noticed as a sexual being?

  19. Nothing, NOTHING, makes me more suspicious of a woman who tells me she doesn’t like women because “there’s just too much drama”. It’s the very first clue that that woman is a drama queen. I’ve had all-female friends my whole life, and NEVER have I had drama. Ever. I am 23. UNBELIEVABLE I KNOW. It’s because I make friends with people who are not dramatic. Because I ACTUALLY hate drama.

    It struck me as interesting that some women like these type of men because “they keep things interesting/exciting”. It’s the same for men who date drama queens. You attract what you exude. So what’s odd to me is that we’re all standing around complaining about those women dating those men. So what? Do you WANT to date women who love drama? God, if I found out a man was attracted to drama queens, I’d be running the other way so fast. He’s fully entitled to his preferences, but that’s not what I would want.

    To me, it’s people complaining that they can’t attract people who would probably be a bad fit anyway. I don’t complain about the men I don’t like who aren’t attracted to me. Maybe as a woman I have a different perspective on this.

    Also, I think it’s funny when everyone’s shocked women are as shallow as men. We are not goddesses, people. We crap, fart, burp, and judge people just as harshly as men. Is it really shocking that women will date someone on looks alone? That they’ll turn men down because he’s got a mole in the wrong place? I hope one day we’ll stop expecting women to be awesome loving creatures and starting having super low expectations of them. It’ll make my life easier. Maybe then I can leave my house with unshaved legs and people won’t care, cuz women are hairy and gross naturally, amirite?

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      Also, I think it’s funny when everyone’s shocked women are as shallow as men. We are not goddesses, people. We crap, fart, burp, and judge people just as harshly as men. Is it really shocking that women will date someone on looks alone? That they’ll turn men down because he’s got a mole in the wrong place?

      I completely agree.

      Pass the memo to Nerdlove.

      The reason why his articles always generate such heated reactions from men is because he always operates under the presumption that women are in fact goddesses. Or the next best thing.

      There’s no such thing as women being shallow, creep shaming a guy because of his looks alone, etc. All of that is in men’s heads, and if they fail with women, they only have themselves to blame.

      • Sometimes I understand where he comes from, because both genders heap all this bitterness onto one another, explaining behavior as a “man” thing or a “woman” thing. “Well, women just like assholes!” and “Men just want sex”. Once we start talking about genders as collectives, that’s when tempers start flaring. Because not all women like assholes and not all men want sex. A large majority might like/want those things, true. But the reason these articles come into existence is because of the assumptions. I think NerdLove is trying to fix the assumptions and stereotypes. I just think it could be done in a much shorter, concise way.

        Everyone has the potential to be an asshole. Everyone. No one is entitled to treat you better than the next guy because you’re nice, because you’ve got nice clothes, because you offer sex on the first date, because you’re rich. People get mad at women for not being nice, women get mad at men for not being nice. But no one HAS to treat you well or indulge your desires. Their behavior is their responsibility, not yours. If they want to be assholes, then they can assholes. The sooner you know it, the less time you waste with them. Women can be shallow jerks. If people start realizing this, they’ll be less angry when they realize that a woman is a shallow jerk. They’ll be able to move on.

        Feminism to me is the idea that women are people. Often crappy, jerkish people. Just like men. Equality, yo. It’s awesome. 😀

    • @Wanda:
      To me, it’s people complaining that they can’t attract people who would probably be a bad fit anyway. I don’t complain about the men I don’t like who aren’t attracted to me. Maybe as a woman I have a different perspective on this.

      Read the posts by signature Kat above. She seems to have less of a problem swinging between the different types of men she at the moment sees fit to date and engage in different activities, including but not limited to intimate ones 😉
      So yes, probably you and (many?) other woman have a different perspective on this, since most everybody seems to steep men more firmly into the one camp or the other.

      • I respect where Kat is coming from, but as someone who has absolutely no interest in casual sex, I cannot understand that particular outlook. I would not be able to swing from one type to another, as I cannot stand narcissists and assholes, even if they’re pretty. Then again, I rarely ever meet men like that. I don’t hang out in the venues that attract these types (bars, clubs, etc.). Many women have very different views. All the praise Kat gets for “being honest” seems off to me. So I’m not being honest when I insist looks don’t really matter to me? It’s not a matter of me being a liar and Kat being honest. She is self-aware and so am I. A lot of women aren’t. Self-awareness is more important in this than anything, not so much honesty. Know what you like and own up to it, not for brownie points but because you know it’s true.

        • Wanda: I didn’t mean to imply that you were less honest about your personal feelings than Kat, I’m really sorry if I came across like that.
          I was just trying to say that Kat had a different view that yours, and her view was one that a lot of “disregarded” men could recognize, so reading hers could maybe give an insight to what these men are feeling.

          Also: Because not all women like assholes and not all men want sex. A large majority might like/want those things, true.
          I think a lot of people make a mistake if they jump to the conclusion that a man don’t want sex just because he’s a considerate and generous person. It’s rarely a binary situation like that..

          • Oh no, I don’t think you implied that I was being dishonest at all. I just have found that that seems to be the overall “tone” to some of these conversations on GMP, that women are lying when they say they don’t go for good looking assholes. Some women may be lying; some may be telling the truth.

            Also, it sounds like I’m saying not all men want sex when in fact I mean not all men JUST want sex. I assume most men want sex at some point, aha, just like most women. And honestly, I think there are a lot of good guys that get laid tons and are proud of that. Good for them, if they can have all the sex they want and be honest, decent people at the same time. I wish all “players” could do the same. We just tend to discuss the stereotype of the asshole guy who goes trolling for sex, since that’s often the stereotype we push against.

        • And I think a lot of the issues here is bot really about the guys that women chose to have casual sex with. I think it’s more about that a lot of women entering longterm committed (monogamous) relationships with men that they are not really (sexually) attracted to, and seemingly taking for granted that the man shares her feelings and expectations.

  20. Richard Aubrey says:

    Well, this explains the first two dates. What isn’t covered is the relationships that go on with everybody, sometimes including the woman in question, agreeing the guy’s an asshole.
    Whole ‘nother thing.

    • Like I said above, it doesn’t matter if you have a “dark triad” personality because just by getting the first few dates it doesn’t matter. Momentum carries you through to the part where everyone already knows you have a bad personality. Women in particular won’t want to give up on a relationship where they’ve already “given” the guy sex because they won’t want to admit that they were used by a bad guy.

  21. “No, frustrating the millions of men who heard ‘I wish I could meet a nice guy like you’ and ignored the silent ‘…who I would be interested in fucking’ […]”

    Just a hunch – Could it be that they ignored it because it was, you know, um… Silent?

    It might come off as a surprise, but most men aren’t telepaths. If you say “i’d love to met someone like you” and don’t add the “who I found hot” conditional, men will go and think “Huh… You met. Me.” And then will proceed to wonder why they weren’t qualified. And honestly, I can’t fault them if they end up assuming “Well, then she must be lying. She didn’t want a man like me after all”. That’s the heart of the “Women Claim To Like Nice Guys But Actually Like Assholes” debacle. You can’t pass half of a message and expect men to understand the entirety.

  22. A few people on the previous commenting page have noted that sometimes women get into relationships with dark-triad assholes and stay in those relationships, go on to get married and have kids, and even admit themselves that their boyfriends/husbands are jerks.

    As a woman, my observation on this is that the women in these relationships are often, for lack of a better description, willfully pulling the wool over their own eyes. Some of them operate under the belief that any relationship is better than no relationship at all. Some of them actually thrive on the drama, the unpredictability, and ‘excitement’ (not always fun) that their partner brings to the table. Some of them are Stockholmed, suffering under the behavior and attitudes of their partner but still adoring & forgiving. Some of them even end up in abusive relationships that they refuse to leave. And rarely, the woman herself is also kind of a jerk and isn’t bothered by her partner’s behavior & personality.

    I get the sense that the men who complain about this are also somewhat guilty of that first thing – believing that any relationship with any woman is better than no relationship at all. The women who stay with assholes have their own issues. You probably wouldn’t want to be in a long-term relationship with them. Some men see that assholes can reel in more fish and go home with a full cooler and are envious, without realizing it’s a whole cooler of fish you probably wouldn’t want to eat if it were your cooler.
    Wow. I should never try fishing metaphors.

    • I don’t think the issue is really so much about women having relationships with dark-triad assholes, or who they chose chose to have casual sex with.
      I really think it’s more that a lot of women seem to enter long-term committed, supposedly monogamous relationships with men that they are not really sexually attracted to, but deeming other qualities more important, and seemingly taking for granted that her view of the importance of sexuality in the relationship is mutual and reciprocated.

      • @FlyingKal

        “….and seemingly taking for granted that her view of the importance of sexuality in the relationship is mutual and reciprocated.”

        Yes, and then these women convince themselves or pretend to convince themselves that the man shares her view of sexuality in the relationship. It is this unilateral thinking that causes much of the problem.

        I really believe that many women just do not feel nice guys either deserve or desire much sex.

        • Mr Supertypo says:

          i think that bad boys maybe trigger certain fantasies in women, just like sexy women does that at least to me. I dont know for others.

          So maybe a bad boy for some women are sexy? if thats the case be a bad boy for one night. Be the Fonz *hey* *thumbs up* 😉

          ps

          I dont know if the Fonz fall into the category of bad boy :-/

          • Mr Supertypo:
            i think that bad boys maybe trigger certain fantasies in women, just like sexy women does that at least to me. I dont know for others.

            So maybe a bad boy for some women are sexy? if thats the case be a bad boy for one night. Be the Fonz *hey* *thumbs up* 😉

            Yes. Well. That is probably true.
            However, my concern here is not so much what “arbitrary” women (i.e. the ones I’m not with 😉 ) do on their sexy time and who they chose to spend it with. It is more what the one woman I AM with, wants to do and why she doesn’t find me attractive or worthy of having sex with.

      • @KKZ, I don’t think it’s a matter of “pulling the wool over their eyes.” It’s called being in an abusive relationship. Don’t forget that narcissists tend to prey on people who are vulnerable, and that narcissists are expert manipulators. By the time a woman realizes she’s being abused, her abuser has control of so many aspects of her life, such as finances and children, that it makes it extremely difficult to leave. It’s not a “love the drama” situation 99% of the time!

  23. Yes, having a sense of style is important, but when the clothes (and make up) come OFF, there better be some substance under all that wrapping. Cultivating confidence and a pleasing personality should be the higher priority.

  24. J. Sclafani says:

    Wait a minute. I can clear this up very easily.

    NICE GUYS DON’T FINISH LAST- WOMEN ACTUALLY WANT NICE GUYS.

    BUT THERE IS A CAVEAT, SO BEAR WITH ME HERE:

    Yes, many misinformed women like a man who is a bit macho simply because they don’t know any better.

    And it is not always the young women who are guilty of this mistake.

    Women who should know better, still repeat the same scenario of dating a macho man and then complaining when he acts- well, macho-but in a totally idiotic way. Can you say PUTZ?

    These women have macho and manly mixed up.

    Like seriously mixed up-which is why their own dating decisions are poor.

    These young girls/ women seriously don’t know how to discern between genuine, natural manliness which comes across effortlessly vs the guy who is a perpetual, macho jerk that treats her poorly.

    The less enlightened girls/ women get the notion of manliness confused with Mr. Macho Meathead and therefore, you do have a significant amount of girls/ women gravitating to the worse possible examples of men as dating partners or significant others.

    The fact that they date these losers( even if they are hot looking losers/ rich losers,etc.) and then become confounded about why the relationship sucks or never progresses to the next level, is actually sad and laughable at the same time.

    They are utterly clueless about what they are doing to attract the wrong kind of men. CLUELESS!

    It then becomes an issue of blaming themselves for the cruddy status of the relationship and their man’s behavior ((these women all too often have poor self esteem) or they then paint the state of all men with a broadbrush and you get the ” all men are jerks” refrain from them. Usually this is spouted and pouted, after the most recent episode of being treated like crap.

    So unfair. So ridiculous. Yet tragic and comical all at once. These are the ladies that need to get a clue. It is not all men out there ladies- it is YOU.

    If they do not do some serious self introspection about their behavior, wants and needs- if they don’t learn from their own dating experience, they then end up spending their lives regretting every macho man they pin their hopes on, and forever feeling let down .

    (But really- whose fault is it anyway?)

    Wait!
    There’s more!

    Real women with intelligence, some decent experience in dating men and the ability to read a man’s true character, DO have a reason for passing up on nice guys- even though that is exactly what they are looking for.

    You know why? Because women want a nice guy- not a doormat!

    We come equipped with a better doormat radar than an “avoid the macho idiot” radar.

    I know, I know- but who said life was fair?

    There is a world of difference between a truly self respecting nice guy and a doormat, and most women can sniff out the difference like a shark can smell blood in the water from 10 miles away.

    By observation of a man’s behavior, she pretty much can size up a door mat in New York minute and regardless of where a female is from, the majority of them are not turned on by doormats.

    Honestly- should anyone be? Female doormats are a turnoff for men, too!

    Women want gentlemen who respect them and whom respect themselves.

    If you are a nice guy who is not having any luck with finding a nice gal- reexamine your dating behavior.

    It would be a dissertation to outline the differences between a secure gentleman- a real nice guy who has a lot to offer a gal,versus a doormat.

    But I will say that the doormat often has self esteem issues- which is why , while probably a nice person, he gets labeled a doormat.

    So, let me reiterate it one more time: We want nice guys- we really do.

    Most of us want gentleman that are manly- not macho.

    But we don’t want doormats…..and really, in either sex- why would anyone want to date a doormat ; much less get serious with one?

    As for the tips on dressing? Or what kind of car one owns? Where you live?The kind of work you do and the salary you make?

    All that materialistic stuff?

    In the end, to a nice girl, that means zip if you turn out to be either a macho jerk or a mega doormat.

    Gentlemen? Welcome. But doormats need not apply.

    Are you a nice guy who unfortunately happens to be a doormat? Think on it.

    A bit of a boost to your self esteem can get you out of the doormat zone and into dating suitable women who will be very into you, but this is something you must learn for yourself.

    Being a macho putz is bad. But being a groveling “good guy” door mat is not much better.

    • “Most women can’t handle the men they say they want.” ~Ayn Rand

      That pretty much sums it up. Conditioned from birth to feel unworthy, women reject “the good” for ” the bad” because it feels more familiar…I feel sorry for most of the 70 or so, women I’ve gone out with in the past six years…it’s a shame.

    • J. Sclafani

      “The majority of women are not turned on by doormats.
      Honestly- should anyone be? Female doormats are a turnoff for men, too!”

      Really? female doormats (read women with low self esteem) have no problem getting laid. Infact they often end up getting laid more than other women and more than they wanted

    • This this a thousand times this :)

  25. J. Sclafani says:

    @ Patrick.

    I hear you but please know this: Many women have male friends they absolutely adore as wonderful guy pals but who they are not physically attracted to. Can we fault them for that?

    You can’t make yourself like someone- love someone or find them attractive. In fact, I tend to find that many men ( but not all) are a bit harsher on their criteria for looks/sexual attraction when it comes to deciding to date someone- particular those on dating sites or those being set up on a blind date.

    You can tell because while many women will show up to meet a man site unseen- very few men will.
    They want a photo first. And they will make a snap judgement on a photo where women, having seen a photo or not, often give a guy a chance.

    Sometimes, while not initially attracted to a man, if he has a great personality or a certain aura about him, he starts to become more and more attractive. So women will take that chance far more often than men.

    ( Not man bashing- just telling you exactly what the stats will say and from having done the blind date scenario far more than I care to remember as well as the internet dating scene)

    Ideally, in my opinion, a great relationship starts as an innocent friendship, with no expectations and then blossoms into something more. It seems like that happens most often in the movies than in real life but I don’t think it is impossible.

    Yes, it is romantic, idealistic thinking- but what is so bad about that?

    As for women who offer up the comment you mention in your post?

    Either they really are dropping a hint to the guy or they are committing the sin of complimenting him ( on other important qualities like personality, morals, etc) but also letting him know, subtly( with silence) that they do not consider them romantic material.

    I consider that silence to be about as subtle as a brick. It is wrong to do this.

    Since this can be hurtful- it is better to not even say it, especially on the chance the guy DOES feel attracted to the female saying it.

    It is SILENT REJECTION but it hurts just as much as someone saying” Sorry, you are a great person but I don’t feel any attraction ” Ouch :-(

    That being said, if a woman does mean what she says and IS interested, she should make it very obvious in case the guy doesn’t pick up on her HINTS or feels like he is getting mixed signals ; which will then lead him to doubting himself or analyzing her words for meaning.

    Women assume men “know” what they mean and men often are baffled by what women say.

    No wonder the two sexes run into communication problems.

    I think people are pretty intuitive as a rule- but how intuitive varies by the individual.

    Directness is great- especially when what you have to say to someone, is a nice thing.

    But one kind of havs to take the bitter with the sweet.

    So if you like directness and someone is direct, you have to handle the straightforward rejections that may come your way. This applies to both sexes.

    I would rather know where I stand, then hope for something that will never be.

    I think men feel the same. At least they claim so.

    I cannot count how many times guy friends complained to me” If only she had just said she wasn’t interested instead of avoiding my calls”

    • I’m, sorry, but… I don’t get how you answer relates to my comment at all? Not trying to be snarky here, I really don’t.

      My point was only that, in this particular article but also in some of his other pieces, Dr. NerdLove puts the burden on men to hear what women don’t say, and then imply they are stupid if they don’t. And that’s… Not helpful at all. Actually, it’s the exact opposite. That’s all.

    • Just wondering where to find the kind of woman you describe ?? Because the ones I’ve been come across are exactly the opposite and will in fact decide on looks / size if they are interested in a guy.

  26. cashdoller says:

    Listen it’s pretty simple actually, you have three types of males.

    1. Alpha Males – these are the type of men that fuck about all the hot women on the market. They compose maybe 15-20% of the adult male population. You can be alpha by default by having a lot of money, fame, power, prestige – which usually takes alpha qualities to attain and hold on to that status in the first place. OR you can just be a regular guy but have game. Without game, no hot girls. That’s just how it goes and no matter what you want to write or think it’s going to continue to be like that in THIS society because of the concept of the empowered modern feminized female. The entitlement breeds a form of narcissism which breeds these types of guys practically having a field day on all the hot girls.

    2. Beta males – you can thank these guys for society and civilization – they score girls, but usually it falls on their lap. They are unaware of how the modern feminized female works. They hold on to the idea that you meet someone and you both like each other and things and you date, go steady, you know just like high school. Little do they know that this girl they just met and are dating who is most likely under their “league” a bit has already fucked double the amount of girls he’s fucked. And she isn’t really able to hold on to a serious relationship because of all the damn options out there. That is, if she’s even a bit attractive. If she’s fat and ugly then he’ll be unhappy and he’s in for a disaster. These men don’t have game, or very little if they do. THey cerainly don’t willingly apply it. These are the men that women who are past the wall (30) usually date because they can’t get an alpha anymore.

    3. Omega Male – the fat nasty introverted pizza eating dungeon and dragon slaying greasy haired computer programmer who had sex with two really gigantic girls back in 1997. Since then he’s been growing his hair out in dedication to Master of Puppets – his favorite Metallica album. He hates everything that happened after Kurt Kobain sung about teen spirit and has Slayer on repeat on his Rio MP3 player that he uses in his bathroom attached to a radio while he takes a 4 hour shit. These poor souls need to be reborn.

    • your view of men (yes, men) is reductive and sexist. What’s the point of labelling yourself negatively?

      • Peter von Maidenberg says:

        I can actually relate. If you don’t feel you live up to society’s idea of manhood – or you don’t buy into it at all (which is my situation) – you’re going to have to lump a lot of negative self-image. And one way to get thru the day, given that reality, is to deflect it onto men as a group. I resent men a lot more than I do women.

        Where is that getting me, you might ask? Thru the day, alone. I have a ways to go, but I know it’s going to have to get a lot worse before it starts to get better.

  27. “I just gotta ask: Are narcissistic macho posturing and sexual prowess in bed really that positively correlated, in women’s experience?

    I mean, I would have thought that a polite man who shows that he delights in giving pleasure to women would generally be a better lover, no matter if for one hour or for six months, than a jerk who wears his egotism on his sleeve. And wouldn’t cause anymore hassle than that drunken dude not waking up next to you next morning”

    It is because they are DOMINANT in bed and women are attracted to dominant men.

    • My personal opinion, as a woman, is it’s really a turn-off if a guy is macho. there IS a certain type of woman who goes for macho men, often from working class areas, but they are definitely not the majority. Women tend to like confidence, which is not the same thing. macho guys do tend to act confident, but so do lots of non-macho guys. It’s the self-confidence that attracts. And, obviously, looks matter, just as they do for men (though probably matter less for women generally). But yes, looks matter, as the research pointed out, learning how to look your best can raise your chances. It’s amazing how many guys put no effort at all who could look quite cute and stylish if they tried a little.
      I find macho guys a turn-off because I don’t imagine they would be very good in bed and I’d be worried they might hurt me. Anyways, I’ve found that respectful, smart, more bookish guys can be really wild in bed. Respectful men make the best lovers because they actually listen to what you want instead of making assumptions like macho guys do.
      Also, for the record, not all women want to be dominated, even in the bedroom. there is such a thing as a dominant woman.

    • Cashdoller says:

      That’s what I always thought too. I’m sure it’s on a sliding scale as the selection is large. But generally alpha’s are confident and score all the hot chicks for a reason. Confidence goes a long way when your plugging away at another hot babe after another successful score.

      As far as being dominated, the hot girls love to be dominated. You’ll get the artsy dumpy alternative chicks into all types of stuff. But those smoking hot girls you only dreaam about putting your dick in all need and crave domination. It just goes with being super feminine, which is what they are at their core.

      • Peter von Maidenberg says:

        You either have massive confirmation bias, or your experiences are limited. Either way, you are being simpleminded, shallow, and demeaning.

        Keep right on ignoring the artsy alternachicks, however. More for guys like me, and they can be incredibly sexy, unless one has the issue I suspect you have – the Vespa syndrome (fun to ride but what would the bros say?)

  28. J.Sclafani says:

    @ cashdoller

    Whoa- you actually sound like a man who doesn’t like your own sex or you are a female who is totally disgusted with the opposite sex.

    Your input is interesting, though it does come across as disparaging to a large percentage of men in the world.

    (Speaking of the world- we also need to keep in mind cultural differences within men around the globe because it really does affect their behavior and attitude toward women and relationships.)

    While a percentage of what you write is true about Alpha Males( not sure what percent)- I could never put males in just 3 broad based categories. It is grossly unfair.

    If you are a male- you make me wonder where you place yourself on the spectrum?

    There are so many men out there- and so, that means many personality types which equals differing behavior and quirks.

    Which male was supposed to be the one the decent women should bother with out of your 3 selections of male types? Because they all looked like pretty lame. What a dismal proposition if the real world were really like this- 3 cruddy categories of men to choose from. :-(

    In truth, despite my personal feeling that the 3 selections are lame, there is no right or wrong answer to the question.

    It can’t be answered either, because each women has her own agenda- desires -needs.

    Many women are looking for a guy NOT offered in your 3 categories.

    Sure, some might want number 1, 2 or 3(for whatever reason) and many will want none of the above.

    I think you get the idea.

    Even if I was a goddess on all levels, I would not- NOT- want an Alpha male.

    You could not pay me enough money to date or marry an Alpha.

    Your Alpha male sounds like a macho entitled putz and, whoever is attracted to him and tries to form a *meaningful relationship* with him, deserves what they get.

    Which will be a whole not of nothing.

    Oh, other than a ton of ego from this Alpha Narcissist.

    This is the ME- ME- ME guy.

    Savvy nice women know to avoid this type and they can usually spot them pretty quick, unless Mr. Me Me Me happens to be a great actor in luring women into their lair by seeming like a GENUINE NICE GUY WHO HAPPENS TO HAVE IT ALL.

    But even if they front initially, you can only keep the act going so long before you are found out.

    A jerk is a jerk. You can bet that side gets exposes pretty quickly.

    As it is, being a female who actually has a brain, I get very turned off by men who try to dominate me ( Put them in any category you want, because men have various reasons for wanting to be dominant over a woman).

    Even if it is a first meeting in a group setting, and we start off with harmless conversation,it is hard not to pick up on his need to beat me with knowledge- top me in achievements- talk over me when trying to make a point rather than allowing a mutual exchange of ideas, etc.

    It all comes out because they can’t screen that part of themselves very well.

    I have no need to control people, so naturally I DON’T like people who like to control or dominate others.

    Maybe another female would find this bossiness attractive. Good luck to her.

    ****NOTE TO POSTER TOMMY: Dominance in the bed is different than having a personality that is largely dominant. And besides-even sexual dominance has it ranges. As many women might appreciate the man taking the lead in the bedroom- there are probably just as many women who don’t like the guy taking the lead all the time.******

    Point is- in this * personality type*, the nuances are there and I can tell by the conversation turns he takes, that he is seeking to *squash* me.

    If I was a guy conversing with this clown, I would probably end up in a fist fight with this type of guy- but since I am female, I just opt to get away from such an annoying, overbearing moron.

    If this is what he is like on first meeting just having harmless conversation in public- what is this guy like to date or live with?

    Being involved with a guy like this is my idea of a form of hell( your alpha males).

    I learned how hellish it can be in my very early 20’s. Never forgot it. Often, these males are also abusers and they never change.

    So, if a female notices dominance and a lack of respect shown toward her early in the game, the best thing she can do is run and don’t look back.

    The Number 3 males you described are social misfits who are often bitter because their life didn’t quite turn out like they hoped. They do exist, but then so do a zillion other types of guys.

    These are 3 pretty unflattering categories if you analyze the description offered up.

    By the way- when I initially posted here, I was considering the argument of Macho Jerk VS Genuine Good Guy VS Doormat, to refer to men who actually want a relationship with a female- not just sex.

    It was also to promote the idea that genuine good guys do not finish last- but doormats do.

    • Even if it is a first meeting in a group setting, and we start off with harmless conversation,it is hard not to pick up on his need to beat me with knowledge- top me in achievements- talk over me when trying to make a point rather than allowing a mutual exchange of ideas, etc.

      The thing with these Alpha males is not so much that they are trying to dominate the women in the group setting at the first meeting, as they are constantly trying to dominate and topping the other men in the same setting. And THAT is something that most women either seem to be totally oblivious to, or find totally attractive..

      • J. Sclafani says:

        @ FlyingKal.

        Actually that scenario does unfold as well. Men trying to best each other in a public setting.

        However, I have had this happen to me even on a one on one situation with a dominant male, where there is no competition around.

        My opinion is dominant is dominant is dominant. If that is the personality type- it rarely ever changes.
        If there is no one to show off to and they do it, safe to say, they are naturally dominant.

        Though I admit and agree, that a male can temporarily go into that dominant mode for the reasons you described in your post. You are definitely perceptive.

  29. I think that women that need a “bad boy” for casual sex is probably kinda sucky in bed. Think about it.
    you need a guy that does the most of the work because you youself just don’t know what too do.
    That’s why it seems that promiscious women have a more “natural” view of men. They know that they only need a normal man that can contribute 50% of the sexual confidence and she can give the rest.

    If this theory is true I feel sorry for the poor saps that get’s into long term relationships with the sexualy unconfident women. Not that fun to do all of the work.

    • @Nistan….

      I feel sorry for poor saps who get into long term relationships with women, period. I was one of these poor saps, so I can speak from experience.

      It is not that many of these women are lacking in sexual confidence. They want the good sex from the “bad boy” while searching for the poor sap the get into a relationship. The good sex is the driver for the bad boy. But, because women value relationships more so than men, the relationship is center of attraction for the poor sap. That why the sex is so crappy with these women when you enter into a long term relationship with them.

      Until men stop falling for this dynamic, it will continue unabated.

      • cashdoller says:

        How do you figure women value relationships more than men?

        Over 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women in the US.

        • @sachdoller…

          I mean they are more relational than men. Relationships in this context is all (including female friends etc). Not dating relationships per se.

          Sorry for the confusion.

    • Nistan

      I do agree that promiscuous women do not require men to put all the effort, but they are attracted to fewer men to begin with. A woman out there just to have casual sex and flings will usually only consider a small slice of men she deems physically attractive.

      On the other hand a woman looking for dating and relationships will consider a larger number of men and is likely to be more forgiving to men on looks. For ordinary looking men the only option would be to make themselves more acceptable to these women for the purpose of dating & relationships.

      I also disagree that confident and promiscuous women are less obsessed with ‘oozing levels of confidence’ in men. Infact I’ve observed that confident woman want even more confident men. Men who can atleast measure up to them. A confident woman will never give a guy with less confidence a chance.

      • cashdoller says:

        Hey Keith, it isn’t the looks that women care about as a whole. It’s the power they portray. Or in other words, just how much of a true alpha they are.

        In fact the hotter the female, the less effort she puts into finding a man for a relationship. This is because every man (she thinks) is offering himself to her. Every alpha is scoring her in bed is the reality. And this small slice of the population of men (probably 10-15%) is what her idea of what a man is.

  30. In the photos above I think the redhead looks better in the no make-up shot.

    And the only reason the black haired girl looks worse in the no make-up shot is she looks like she rubbed her eyelids.

    Also both right-side pictures are obviously airbrushed on top. Unless they put shiny foundation on their shoulders.

    The right-side pictures look obviously artificial, and not-for-me. Good for a show, or very occasionally. You look like that every day and I don’t even want to be your friend.

  31. I want to say that a lot of the responses have been thought provoking, while others are heavily tinged with emotions- pretty negative ones. I have some pity for some posters. Actually wish I could make their life better, but the truth is, that power is in their hands.
    ********************************************************************************************

    Regarding the bad sex or no sex relationships, and what a raw,sucky deal it is to be in one?

    YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE IN ONE.

    I read about the reasoning behind why some men have horrible or non-existent sex lives. For the most part the blame was put on the woman- rightly or wrongly so.

    Honestly, I can’t answer why such is happening to them because each situation is different as to how it came to that( no sex or bad sex).

    Even if someone offers up why something is happening to them- is that the entire story or truth?

    How would anyone of us ever know? Maybe they don’t even know why their sex life is terrible.

    All they have is a lot of frustration and anger- but not the true reason.

    Because they honestly don’t know what the true reason is.

    ( Yes, I did see some people offer up reasons on why women would give a poor performance in the bedroom or be a no show. It could all be true- it could be partly true- it could be totally off the mark.)

    I also wonder if any man or woman with the above complaint ever thinks about their own actions in the bedroom.

    Do they really know what their partner wants?

    Do they ask?

    Assume?

    Just get into a routine that gets stale fast?

    Do they have hang ups?

    There are so many reasons someone would beg off having sex with a partner or only put in an obligatory effort- you have to wonder why, because sometimes it is a lot deeper than the person complaining, even knows.

    Anything from weight gain-hygiene- technique- to deep seated hidden anger on the part of the partner holding out, could put the breaks on sex or cause it to be seriously lackluster.

    But if people have a problem *really* talking about what goes on in the bedroom and their dissatisfaction about it, nothing will ever have a chance of being resolved.

    I have heard from male and female friends, who were very upset about their relationship/marriage, and when sex comes up there are always complaints. And the reasons varied widely as to why sex sucked for them.

    So if you say you have a lazy partner- you may have just that- a lazy, uncaring, selfish sex partner.

    Or you may have someone just as unhappy as you- lazy or not.

    Leaving words unspoken means you will never know why your life is the way it is- at least in the bedroom.

    Perhaps many of us meet a partner like that in our dating/ marrying lifetime.

    THE PARTNER THAT PUTS ZERO EFFORT INTO SEX * AND* THE RELATIONSHIP.

    It is one thing to experience it- but to put up with it ?

    Why stay?

    You are not a prisoner in a relationship( although admittedly abused women feel they are and may fear for their lives or kids safety. But let’s put that example aside )

    IF IT SUCKS- MAKES YOU UNHAPPY- MAD OR SAD WHY NOT JUST GET OUT?

    A poor or non-existent sex life in a relationship that is being, perpetuated by one partner,it is a form of neglect: Emotional/physical and spiritual neglect. It is wrong to do, if you claim you love your partner.

    I cannot think of any sexualized human( straight- gay or bi) who would wish for a partner that doesn’t want to have sex with them; or nearly as bad, a partner who puts in a half- assed effort into sex, like they are doing you a favor.

    If it comes across like you are lucky you got *some* early in the game of dating, that is a harbinger of things to come. You are likely to get more of the same behavior/attitude.

    Who needs or wants that in a partner?

    If you are in a relationship of any kind where you are doing* all the work*, be it sex or just working on all the other facets that make up a relationship, you need to ask yourself why you are still in it.

    Well? Why are you?

    Maybe there are secondary gains for staying in this kind of relationship you bitch about so much?
    Are you being totally honest with YOURSELF?

    I mean a relationship takes 2- so why is one person the workhorse?

    It also begs the question of the what is attitude of the person NOT doing the work?

    Why are they in the relationship? Are they unhappy too? Or are they fine with it?

    What are their possible secondary gains for sticking around with someone they don’t really want to be intimate with?

    (There is an assumption that the person not pulling their weight has it made and is content with how things are- but that may not be so at all. Sorry- it was only fair to be Devil’s advocate on that one)

    The saying goes that ” the power in the relationship, is held by the one who cares the least.”.

    I can see the truth in that statement. It makes me uncomfortable because true love-unconditional love is not about power struggles and tally sheets of score keeping.

    I have long felt a relationship is always in a sort of see -saw momentum- up and down- sometimes steady but yes, in flux- for better or worse .

    And I use that see-saw analogy for the relationship as a whole;meaning the emotions that come with it, along with work involved to keep it intact, and of course, the sexual side.

    There is flux- nothing is ever constant.

    Sometimes one person loves the other person more- than it moves the other way. The other partner takes on that role.

    But they always love each other- it just vacillates in degrees, over time and this tends to be a cyclical thing.

    There will be times when partners both meet right in the middle- when the see-saw is steady.

    I would say those are the times when love is and feels equal for each.

    I don’t like thinking about power and love together because they seem at odds with each other, despite the statement of” the power in the relationship is held by the one who cares the least.”.

    I will say that in dating, I have seen this play out quite obviously. Even in observing others I know.

    The person who is not as vested in the relationship, holds the cards.

    They may care- they may even feel love- but they are not as fully into the relationship as their partner is( for whatever reason that may be).

    Sometimes it really does come down to the title of that book” He/She is just not that into you”.
    As simple as that.

    They are with you for the purpose of passing time.

    You are just Mr. Or Miss Right Now….. not Mr. or Miss Right.

    I think it is unfair and cruel to date someone just to pass time.

    Some of us initially embark on a first date with a ” What the hell” attitude and decide to see where it goes or just go out for some fun, or distraction or on the rebound, etc.

    At a certain point? It becomes wrong. Like morally wrong.

    It takes a moral wrong turn, usually when, ” What the hell” becomes protracted and the other person does have a serious interest in you and you are only there to kill time until someone else comes along.

    You are stopping that person from meeting someone that could be ideal for them. You could also be giving them false hopes if they happen to be really into YOU. :-(

    This less invested partner has the relationship reins and can steer where the relationship goes or does not go, unless the other partner gets fed up and decides to be proactive and find out exactly where they and their relationship stands with this person .

    The less invested partner therefore can control the reins on sex.

    I can think of reasons why some people are not as fully invested and not all of them are negative reasons.

    Someone trying to finish up a law degree or medical school can’t give their whole selves to a relationship at the moment..

    Someone waiting to get through some sort of crisis( family, health,job etc) and therefore can’t be committed 100 percent to the relationship but does not want to discard it either.

    By the way, I am speaking of the above instances with regard to relatively new relationships- not long term ones or marriage.

    And then we have those who are not in it 100 % because they have commitment issues.

    That is a tough call as to whether the person will change.

    How long is a person willing to wait to see someone lose their phobia of settling down?

    (The person involved with the commitment phobic partner has to decide at what point to cut their losses if change is NOT inevitable. And yes, it is hard to walk away from a person who seems ideal but who just cannot bring themselves to commit.)

    As for bad sex or no sex- and crummy relationships in general, I can’t help but ask:

    Why would you settle for that ? Is it about YOUR self esteem?

    Maybe you think you can’t do better? Even though what you have at the moment is pretty crappy?

    I ask that of both men and women who find themselves in this situation.

    You are better off totally alone and doing your own thing, because essentially you are involved with someone,yet you are still feeling very much alone.

    Alone as in: the dreadful feeling of loneliness, even as your significant other is sitting or sleeping right beside you. Take that as a bad sign.

    It can be a horrible feeling and it doesn’t usually change unless the relationship changes and that is going to depend on 2 people to work on-willingly.

    Instead of concentrating on how much your partner is to blame for all they don’t do- why not just leave if the handwriting on the wall screams that your lives together are never going to get any better?

    If nothing is going to change- if your partner sees nothing wrong, or doesn’t show interest in changing, then just chalk it up to the fact that you got involved with the wrong person and start walking.

    People make mistakes. Of all kinds.

    You got involved with the wrong kind of person. Big deal- move on.

    Some are going to retort that it was not always that way when they first married( the sex, the relationship- everything was a lot different and much better in the past).

    Well, whatever the issues are then, try to fix it- and if it is not fixable- get out.

    Life is short- do you want to waste it with someone who you have become to seriously resent, when you might be able to go out there and find someone truly idea for you?

    There are no guarantees of who will be out there if you leave.

    But there is one guarantee, and that is that you will be a lot less miserable than staying with your current partner by leaving.

    Some people are afraid of the unknown, so as miserable as they are- they stay.

    They would rather be with the very person that they hold so much anger toward, because they are use to them, then dare to walk away and possibly start a new and better life.

    (Tell anyone you are staying together for the kids and I will tell you that is not such a smart or altruistic move, especially if there is a lot of fighting in the home. Kids never forget unhappy childhoods or angry parents that hate each other)

    And an FYI to men- there are women dating men who can’t be bothered with sex, so get it out of your head that this is a problem only men deal with.

    In fact, in some ways it hurts worse for women because we have been raised with the old notion that men are ready for action at the drop of a hat- thus women should expect to be not just innately desirable to men but also desired at a moment’s notice.

    If your man can’t give you the time of the day sexually, you feel horrible.

    You question why you are undesirable. A zillion questions about why you are not being touched go through your mind.

    You start to feel really unattractive and doubt your worth as a sexual being, especially if you are the one making all the overtures and getting turned down.

    Eventually, rather than feel humiliated, you stop making overtures to your boyfriend/husband.

    The rejection is too much to bare.

    Your self esteem takes a large beating from this rejection( just like the man whose significant other does not want to have sex with him or who has him do all the work in bed).

    Granted, men too, can be tired- in pain- not in the mood mentally or physically- just like women and sincerely have a reason to not want to be intimate.

    I never said men are sex robots that are at the ready 24/7. And neither are women.

    But there are truly some men where sex with their partner is not a very high priority.

    If you are a sexual person and notice this in the earlier part of your relationship that your partner does not make sex a priority( and when they do – it sucks due to a lack of effort) get out .

    As an end sum up about crummy relationships( whatever is making them crummy): It can be both sides who feel the hurt due to sexual rejection or a poor sex life.

    it can be both men and women who resent doing all the work, be it in the bedroom or the work you need to do to keep a relationship together.

    Sex is part and parcel to the relationship, so if something is wrong there, there is a chance that something is wrong the relationship, and it could be manifesting in the sex department.

    In closing I wonder why anyone would stay with a person if they were that unhappy or bitter or sexually unsatisfied.

    I spotted some bitter comments on the forum with a nice slice of misogyny- whether intended or not.

    Maybe some men need to hear from the bitter women out there who do all the work?

    Some people have a desperate need to be in a relationship- they don’t want to be alone.

    They can’t enjoy their own company. They can only HAVE A LIFE if they have a partner.

    I find that very sad.

    I also find that those people rush into any relationship just to have SOMEONE in their life.

    These are the people who break up with their partner and not even 2 weeks later, they have a new bf/gf.

    Dating just to have someone around, even if you know the person you are currently seeing is totally wrong for you, is sadly pathetic.

    The people who do this, then wonder why they are so unhappy…….

    If you cannot be content with yourself or by yourself, you will come across as desperate out in the dating world, to those who can read between the lines.

    Desperate and/or needy is hardly appealing to either sex.

    As for bad sex or non-existent sex with your partner, if you are in that situation and have been for a while, question why you stay there.

    • @C.I.M….

      “In closing I wonder why anyone would stay with a person if they were that unhappy or bitter or sexually unsatisfied.”

      Unfortunately, I did so for over a decade for the sake of “family.” But, all I suffered was added torment and mental anguish. Hence, I filed for divorce. I have been single and getting lots of very satisfying sex from two women. Just regret it took me so long to figure things out.

      Overall, I like you post. It is fair, balanced, and quite reasonable.

      The fundamental problem in America is that men are at a considerable disadvantage. We have to play by rules and accept certain situations either due to asymmetric information or dishonest behavior by many women.

      I am now free of a lot of the rubbish. I only have FWB arrangements with two women. I have little to no desire for any kind of intimate relationship with a woman other than sex. I know it sounds a bit harsh. But, women do this ALL the time. Just read Kat’s comment above on casual sex. So, why can’t I do the same?

      Until women get honest about the types of men they REALLY want to have sex with nothing will change. Smart men will simply eschew relationships and increasingly rely on porn and sex workers.
      Some men will feel the need to use deceit to counter the perceived deceit by many women. Now matter how one looks at it, it is a sad state of affairs.

      But, personally, I love sex and if I had to lie to get it I would. Just being honest about it. Why? Because I have discovered women lie about this sort of stuff all the time. Then they PRETEND otherwise and expect men to believe them.

      • yes, some women lie to get what they want. some men lie to get what they want. Some women and men make good partners who are generally honest and not manipulative. neither gender is the enemy. It doesn’t mean we should all just give up trying to be honest people because we’ve been burned. better to learn from the experiences so you can avoid them in the future, and know the signs to look for so you know who to avoid.

        • @Rowan….

          “It doesn’t mean we should all just give up trying to be honest people because we’ve been burned. better to learn from the experiences so you can avoid them in the future, and know the signs to look for so you know who to avoid.”

          While in theory I would agree. However, from a practical point the man is still at a disadvantage. The information is asymmetric! So, when trying to “look for” the proper signs, often such signs are deceptive. Hence, it is best to simply avoid.

          I am big believer that the number of sex partners a woman (or man) has DOES impact sex within a marriage and/or long term relationship. So, how are you really going to know how many men she has REALLY been with? If she says 10, we know from studies and research the real number is probably closer to 20. Women understate sexual partners, whereas men overstate sexual partners.

          I just really resent this tendency by women to just think it is perfectly OK to marry a man and then cut off or dramatically reduce sex. There is no feeling on her part about the husbands emotional and social well being. This is happening time and time again to the nice men they want as husbands.

          Thus, I am simply not going to ever entrust my sexual health to one woman ever again.

          • @Jules

            I re-read your post( thx for the kind words on my latest one, glad you liked it and found it to be one of hope as opposed to doom and gloom).

            I think what I am getting out of your post( and correct me if I am wrong) is that women sleep with the bad boys- and marry the good guys, but withhold sex from them or just are not enthusiastic about sex with them after marriage?

            Or is this also picked up on while dating( lack of interest in sex)? If a man picks up on that with a woman while dating- he should run the other way.

            Am I right in what I derived out of your post?

            If so, here is what is weird about what you are alluding to: Some men have a similar way of thinking.

            They will date the * slutty* girls- but end up marrying the wholesome nice girl.

            One type of girl is to kind to have sex with- one is meant to be your wife and possibly the mother of your future children.

            Again this sounds like compartmentalizing and it is. And I think both sexes do it- but- I don’t think *all* men and women are guilty of doing it. Does that make sense?

            Also if you think women marry nice guys- but have the wild sex with the bad boys, we have to ask: what do the bad boys do different in bed compared to the nice guys?

            Or is it just the bad boy persona turning them on? Is that enough- just to be a bad boy or is there some technique they have down pat that good guys don’t?

            If the fact that bad boys are abusive, neglectful or just plain putzes are what turn women on, then a good guy is never going to be able to emulate that- unless he is role playing.
            It is not in a true good guy to behave this way.
            Yes, I know, we could write a dissertation on that.

            The only positive thing I can throw into the picture here of both sexes that tend to put dating material vs marriage material in different bins, is this: if you are not happy with how things are in bed with your partner, a frank talk or marriage counseling could help.

            But people have to be open minded and open toward changing their bedroom scenario.

            If you have a marriage partner refusing to address the problems in the bedroom, then you are really in a conundrum.

            Madonna/Whore syndrome is what they call it with men.

            With women ?
            I don’t know; Bad Boy/Good Guy syndrome? One you get crazy with- one you plan a life with?

            I agree also, that it is wrong to be super sexual with a bf and then once down the aisle and back from the honeymoon, gradually the sex drops off.

            Someone once guy told me( in a joking but bitter way)this was referred to as Wedding Cake poisoning.

            Unfortunately, it is hardly funny.

            • C.I.M

              Yes, men too compartmentalize women, just as vice versa….having casual sex with the slutty girls but wanting wholesome girl for marriage

              But here’s the difference…The compartmentalization has nothing to do with the womens sexual attractiveness. Every man marries a woman he intends to have the best sex of his life with. Infact most men have much higher standards for women’s physical attractiveness when looking a wife, than casual sex. Women dont need to worry about not being sexually / physically appealing to their husbands.

              Men distinguish b/w the 2 types of women simply based on their sexual history. The wholesome marriage material girl may well be hotter and sexier than any one night stand, F-buddy the guy has ever had.

              That doesnt stand true with the sexes reversed. The bad boys, women like to fuck are usually a lot more physically and sexually attractive to women, than the men who are only seen as stable long term relationship material.

              Only men have to be vary of this dynamic. Its a gender specific phenomenon.

            • @keith

              I understand that basically anyone can screw anyone, so it makes sense that men would be okay with a one night stand even if the woman is not that great looking.

              It makes sense a guy would want a nice looking or hot wife.
              But looks don’t always carry over to good sex.

              As for the theory you present with the bad boys being the ones women like to fuck?
              I must be out of the norm- I find character and morals and similar interests with a person to be sexy.
              Someone who * gets me* is damn sexy.

              Even if they are just an average guy. Average is: Not movie star gorgeous- not Quasimodo Ugly. Average- typical- uhhh- dare we say the normal guy you see in a supermarket?

              I guess I stand up for the average guy because he represents reality. I want the real deal. Stable, supportive, kind, compassionate- all qualities that matter in life.

              I am more turned on mentally about commonality than looks. Besides, with commonality there is a good chance you each like each other. Looks can wear off on you( the appeal) and they also definitely vanish over time.

              THE GOOD MEN PROJECT is a great site for men AND women. I am surprised they don’t have a sister site( brother site?) that offers a online dating venue.

            • I am more turned on mentally about commonality than looks. Besides, with commonality there is a good chance you each like each other. Looks can wear off on you( the appeal) and they also definitely vanish over time.

              That sounds very reasonable. Somehow, though, it seems like any time I’ve heard a man express the same thing, it prompts a response from women about how hurtful or unacceptable it is to feel “settled” for, that a man is supposed to find her the most beautiful woman in the world, no matter what. So, if a man says he’s more mentally turned on by a woman’s commonality because her looks don’t matter and would fade even if they were good, does that still sound as good? What if he’s uncouth in his phrasing, like saying he loves his wife despite her “ruined tits”?

              I mean this as a response to a kind of statement I’ve seen many times, not trying to pick on you in particular, CIM. Basically, what I see more often than not is that a woman who says she’s attracted to more than looks (or goes farther and says that “looks don’t matter”) is regarded as having said something noble and enlightened about what she finds attractive. When a man says the same thing, it’s characterized (by women) as either insulting – from the point of view of the chosen partner – or manipulative, as in just a ploy to take advantage of less attractive women on the assumption they’re desperate and less likely to reject his advances. Why is it so often considered as being more open-minded for a woman, but “lowering standards” for a man?

            • @ Marcus

              Attraction DOES matter or else you remain friends.

              ( So we have to agree that to a degree- and the degree varies- looks/ attraction matters)

              I had to get that part out of the way.

              I would say looks matter less than commonality and connection, because those things act as a turn on for me. ( I understand everyone is different)

              For me, it is not just an attraction to a person that would seal the deal- which it seems to do for many people.

              I don’t care how hot you look if we can’t connect on other levels.

              And I am not even speaking about sex.

              Just the connection of interests, morals, how we view the world, our ways of demonstrating affection, having just enough similarity mixed with the right dose of being different enough, to keep it interesting.

              And hot looking is in the eyes of the beholder.

              I am not looking for hot looking or perfect- just perfect for me.

              I understand how you posed the query: why is it when men say the same or similar thing it is taken offensively or as an insult.

              I don’t know what to make of that.

              If a guy raved to me about how much he enjoyed being with me and how he always looked forward to our next date or really liked planning adventures for us to do together, or hated missing my phone calls when his cell phone was off- I would be flattered.

              These are genuine compliments.

              They are just different than the compliment of a nice guy saying the more typical thing a woman might hear- like: how hot he found her or how he couldn’t wait for them to be alone again.

              Compliments vary and the value behind them vary as well.

              It seems like when women say all that you outlined, that they are being open minded- not shallow or superficial- willing to overlook certain things and it all comes across as if she is very kind ,mature and expansive in her thinking when it comes to men and relationships.

              If a man says looks don’t matter- and he claims he means it, I wonder about 2 things:
              Is he seriously sincere about that statement.

              I mean really sincere, because so many people find it extra easy to lie online due to our invisibility

              OR

              Is this a ruse just to get any girl to go out with him because he really just wants to get laid. And by putting in the LOOKS DON’T MATTER disclaimer out there, he will get a lot more replies to his personal ad.

              I am not saying that in a sexist way-I am saying that in a leery, distrustful way. We do have mean people out there. People who seek to take advantage of others.

              Which is why I would be questioning a personal ad like that for its honesty.

              Men are more about eye appeal. Women are emotionally based when looking for partners.

              So to read in a personal ad that looks don’t matter? And it was written by a guy?

              It does make one wonder.

              Even when women say it, the truth is, if you are going to have a partnership and date/marry- presumably sex is part of the package and you generally don’t want to have sex with people you are NOT attracted to.

              So no, I think the semantics are wrong for both sexes when they write or say LOOKS DON’T MATTER.

              They may not be a priority- but they DO matter.

              Maybe what is trying to be said is this” You don’t have to be drop dead gorgeous. I am not looking for a movie star”

              Maybe that doesn’t sound diplomatic enough so the generic” Looks don’t matter” is put in a personal ad instead.

              If you are a sexual being that hopes to meet someone for a relationship, I would think you would want to feel some element of attraction toward a person you plan to date/marry.

              Otherwise you are just friends or see each other in a brother/sister type of light.

              I also hate to say it , and don’t want to seem cruel,but some people see LOOKS DON’t MATTER in a personal ad and realize by the photo of the person making that pronouncement, that they are not exactly easy on the eyes.

              It becomes obvious why they are putting LOOKS DON’ T MATTER in the ad and it is because they don’t feel confident that many people will respond.

              Are men lowering their standards by saying LOOKS DON’T MATTER?
              I don’t think so.

              But the real question is, when they say it, what do they REALLY mean by it?

            • @C.I.M….

              “Men are more about eye appeal. Women are emotionally based when looking for partners.”

              It depends on a partner for what purpose. If a man just wants to get laid, eye appeal/hottness is the primary driver. Same for the women! If she is looking for only sex, physical attractiveness and safety are the primary drivers.

              Women are more driven by novelty and variety when it comes to sex. SO, the emotion for booty calls and casual sex is just not that important. It is the ability of the man to give her some good sex, period.

            • It seems like when women say all that you outlined, that they are being open minded- not shallow or superficial- willing to overlook certain things and it all comes across as if she is very kind ,mature and expansive in her thinking when it comes to men and relationships.

              If a man says looks don’t matter- and he claims he means it, I wonder about 2 things:
              Is he seriously sincere about that statement.

              I mean really sincere, because so many people find it extra easy to lie online due to our invisibility

              OR

              Is this a ruse just to get any girl to go out with him because he really just wants to get laid. And by putting in the LOOKS DON’T MATTER disclaimer out there, he will get a lot more replies to his personal ad.

              I am not saying that in a sexist way-I am saying that in a leery, distrustful way. We do have mean people out there. People who seek to take advantage of others.

              And that’s exactly my point. It’s treated as open-mindedness if a woman says it, and either a lie or manipulation if a man says it. I don’t think the context of an online personal ad is necessary – I think this is the attitude regardless of the context in which a person says they don’t care about looks, or that looks are only a small component of what they’re attracted to. It may not be a case of intentional sexism, but if the same attitude is open-minded in a woman but sleazy in a man, that sounds like some sexism in action to me. If you don’t think so, then can you think of an example of how a man could have and express the same attitude about looks that you do, and expect to be believed?

            • cashdoller says:

              The reason for that is simple: looks matter more for a man than it does for a woman.

              Don’t worry, women aren’t more noble or more morally upstanding than us men though. To them, this same shallowness doesn’t come from valuing looks so high. What they highly value is power and money.

              This is why you always see the rich old guy who has more money than god with the young bombshell. Both of them are immoral and total piece of shit character. Neither one would you want to be friends with in terms of personality.

            • @C.I.M….

              “I think what I am getting out of your post( and correct me if I am wrong) is that women sleep with the bad boys- and marry the good guys, but withhold sex from them or just are not enthusiastic about sex with them after marriage?”

              Almost. Let me clarify things for you.

              What I am asserting (and observing) is that many women will have sex with varying types of men: bad boys, good boys, ugly, thugs, crazies, convicts, degenerates,……it is ALL based on sexual attractiveness. Many of the men are men whom a lot of women would not even consider dating. With these men the sex is passionate, enthusiastic, and great. But, what you really see is a small percentage of men these women go after for sex.

              Then what happens, these same women (and it is a great many) will find a partner for marriage. Usually, this man is kind, polite, funny, and commitment material. However, the women will not bring the same level of sexual devotion, passion or desire to the marriage. In essence, the husband gets the worst aspects of his new wife, sexually. It is as if many women just do not think their husbands are as deserving of sex as these other men.

              This is what really really annoys me about many women. I have been divorced for over 2 years. I have enjoyed the best sex, the greatest quantity of sex than my entire 15+ years of marriage. What I have discovered is the last thing you want to be sexually to a woman is a husband.

              Now, since being single I have spoken to many women about the marriage and sex thingy. Most are married, some were divorced. Here is what they seem to universally agree: most men are not good in bed. Ok. Fine. But, these women know this BEFORE they get married. So, why marry the guy?

              If you know the vast majority of men are not good in bed, then evidently sex is NOT a priority for YOU. That’s fine. But, do women think the men should feel the same? I really believe most women think like this. This is why sex is such a huge issue in marriage. Most married men think (and do) have shitty sex lives.

              Most of the men the typical woman marries is not very sexually experienced as the typical woman. Just a fact. Why do you think there are no male prostitutes for women?
              Because the typical woman can (and do) have f**k buddies, etc. Most men are not so lucky. The men who are their f**k buddies are usually sexing other women. The women know this but don’t care as they are just booty call partners.

              But, I just cannot for the life of me understand why women just do not treat their husband well sexually. I just do not get it. I really think that many women should just marry the men they like to have sex with. It would make men such as myself a lot happier.

            • @Jules

              Okay- this is what I took away from your explanation.

              Sadly the first part is: husband equals boring sex partner.

              I don’t feel that is true, even though I have never been married.

              You have encountered women or know of women who seemed to deliberately withhold sex from husbands.

              Everyone in a loving relationship deserves to have sexual intimacy if both partners have agreed on that already. Suddenly icing out a partner is wrong.

              I would be questioning why a woman is icing out her husband because face it- it means then, that she too is NOT getting sex. At least not with her husband.

              Is she cheating? Yes- No- Maybe.

              Point is, why does she not want to have sex with her husband any more or why does she do so begrudgingly?

              There are numerous reasons for that.

              Some are plain wrong.

              Some make a woman justified in not feeling turned on- but do not justify her in not informing her husband of how she is feeling and what the problems are in the relationship/bedroom.

              In other words, okay, there are issues and you don’t want to sleep with him or you do so half heartedly, but you need to discuss this if you want to stay married.

              No one should remain in a loveless marriage or a sexless marriage if it makes them totally miserable.

              I know people stay together when this happens for monetary reasons or the kids and just lead separate lives.

              But I am referring to the man who wants his wife- and wants his wife to want him.

              You never find out the truth behind that unless the wife is truthful about her reasons.

              I dated someone I was not attracted to because I thought they were a good catch in a lot of other ways. I kept waiting, waiting, waiting for that thunderbolt to hit me.
              The moment when I would look at him through different eyes and suddenly be attracted to him.

              But it never happened. You can’t make yourself fall in love with someone- or care- or be sexually turned on if it is not there.

              If a wife was once were very amorous with her husband and things changed- I would be( as a man) really mulling this over and I would be thinking about my part in this, not just her shutting down on me.

              I would be not strictly looking at her part- I would wonder about mine.

              And I have been there. I dated a man 14 yrs older than me. At first things seemed NORMAL.
              Then I noticed he was avoiding situations where we would be alone.
              I started to question myself and my desirability.

              I was 30 and in nice shape and got attention from guys.

              But the attention I wanted and longed for was from my older boyfriend- and it wasn’t happening.

              Call me incredibly naive or stupid but I later learned that he was evading me sexually because he had diabetes.

              I knew he had diabetes when I met him and he pursued me for a year before I agreed to go out with him.
              What I did not know is that he was impotent.

              It seems that the initial rush of our first few times together made him seem normal- but as months went by, and what naturally should have happened did not, I am sure in his mind he felt under pressure.

              He should have already * been with me* and he hadn’t. How was he going to explain this away?
              He wasn’t- and he didn’t. He made me think I had a problem.

              He was always busy- tired- headache- distracted by a tv show- etc just insert excuse here( ).

              My self esteem did not take a long time to nosedive. Even when I wore sexier and sexier outfits, all I got was a polite” You look nice” where a more typical boyfriend would have had an entirely different response.

              Why was he dating me if he didn’t want me?

              Why did he even pursue me for that long if he did not want a real gf?

              Once I made sense of it all- and realized it was not about me, I was angry.

              He had no intention of doing anything to change our relationship into a more natural one.

              I felt like I had been scammed and demeaned. What was the cruelest is how he hid his shame by putting the blame on me or making lame excuses.

              He wasn’t man enough to actually say” Listen, I have a problem and I hope you will be patient with me about it ….”

              And because I was emotionally invested in him, I was not looking in other places for a boyfriend- so he also wasted my time as well as broke my heart.

              I finally said” I don’t see why we are even boyfriend/girlfriend when we really don’t have that kind of relationship. So why don’t we just go back to being friends like in the past. We never should have dated to begin with.”

              HE WAS FINE WITH IT ! Why?

              Because basically we would just keep doing what we were doing- which was hanging out without being sexual!

              Eventually, because I was attracted to him , I realized that even true friendship was ruined with this man.

              Flash forward to the next gf he becomes involved with is his age: She is in the same boat as me, only she decides to stick with him.

              She confided in me by email and phone. I knew she was fishing immediately the first time she contacted me. I guess she wanted to know if something was wrong with her( like I did) or if I had a similar experience.

              I told her that I went through what she was going through and he did not want to address the issue.

              I knew she was a very sexual woman. I had no idea how she was going to deal with dating him the way he was( again,not just a diabetic with impotence but one who would not get help but seemed to have a need to be involved with a woman).

              I learned later how she was dealing with it.

              She let him move into her home. I found out she would get out of their bed, go into her living room, get a bottle of vodka and cry herself to sleep.

              So women and men do face sexual rejection from bf/spouses and for a multitude of reasons. In this case, she sacrificed her sex life because she liked this man’s personality.
              I couldn’t do that.

              And even though I walked away, I did not have the need to find another guy pronto and jump his bones to make up for the deprivation I went through dating the older man.

              I just wanted a bf who I enjoyed who would want me as much as I wanted him.

              I think the gist of your story Julian applies to both sexes, but I have a feeling you are hearing more complaints from men, than from women about being frozen out of the bedroom.

              Either way- for either sex- when you are on the receiving end of being sexually ignored, neglected, frozen out, it hurts all the same and it does a number on your self esteem.

            • @C.I.M…

              “They will date the * slutty* girls- but end up marrying the wholesome nice girl.”

              “One type of girl is to kind to have sex with- one is meant to be your wife and possibly the mother of your future children.”

              Yes, men do this as you say. But, here is the big difference. These men do not go pinning for such women. Men do not treat these women better than their wives. They do not buy them clothing from Nortdstrom, Neiman,etc….There wives will be treated much better in ALL areas.

              Why? Because a man values his wife far far more than his lover, not matter how great the sex was for him. He will have sex with his wife as frequently as SHE permits.

              So, as you can see married women take away an important part of the relationship (sex) while the married man does not remove any important aspects of the sexual relationship.

            • @ Jules-

              Actually some men DO take something away from the relationship once they are married. As you claim many women withhold sex- or cave into it grudgingly once married, many men stop the romance and wooing.

              The attitude is” Well, I have got her- she is my wife. I can stop trying now.”

              I am not saying all men are like this. But it is about as prevalent as your point about women’s change in attitude toward sex after marriage.

              Why this happens? It varies by the person. But if a woman withholds sex, she is also punishing herself, unless she doesn’t care about sex( or is having an affair on the side so she actually isn’t missing anything).

              Why do men stop putting in an effort to do the things they know women like once they are married? For the segment of men that are guilty of such, I attribute it to laziness. And sometimes spite…… Maybe even tit for tat- like they won’t bother to keep up the romantic attention if she is withholding sex or acting like she is doing him a favor when they do have sex.

              In a relationship of any kind, it takes two to tango- two to make it work and two to make it NOT work.

              Just thought I would add in, what did not occur to you: Men can indeed remove important aspects of the relationship after marrying.

              Also important to remember is: what is deemed important is subjective to each person- male or female./

            • C.I.M.
              What exactly IS it that women do in a relationship, If we the two sexes by effort?
              is there something women do that forces them to work harder then just being female?
              A guy has to be masculine and forward, etc, etc. That shit is tiring. What do women do?

            • C I M

              Because romance and wooing is, more often than not, one sided.

              Ideally, why should a man need to put more effort to get what they both want – sex and intimacy ?

              If a man is desirable, if a woman is truly attracted to a man – physically and sexually – he wouldn’t need to bend backwards to earn sex and affection from her. But you imply that men need to earn sex from women.

              Why shouldn’t sex happen naturally and effortlessly for both partners, if both of them need it equally?

              If after marriage, a man removes the aspect of wooing, charming and earning sex/affection from a woman, then that aspect was unfair to begin with.

              Btw, why do you women have this mentality that sex is a gift you bestow upon men? That your sexuality is worth more than mens sexuality?

            • @C.I.M…

              Your points are well taken and respected.

              So, in essence what you are saying it that is is an exchange: romance and wooing for the woman in exchange for sex?

              Well, If that is what is happening, then I guess it is so. But, if the woman loves her husband and views him as sexually attractive, then why is the romance and wooing really necessary?

              While married, my ex wife and I did dinner dates, traveled, stayed at local hotels for a weekend…Still the sex was only once a month. So, my point is there is no guarantee this will work.

              The larger issue for me is just why is it necessary. I cannot grasp why some women will engage in casual sex with some men (no romance and wooing needed) but demand romance and wooing from the man they profess to love…Do you see my point?

              Perhaps my view is too logical? All I know from recent experience is I an enjoying great regular sex with two FWB partners with little romance and wooing. Hence, my view that being a lover beats being a husband, hands down.

            • Jules

              The ugly truth is that the romance, wooing is only required if the man lacks sexual desirability. Its a form of supplication to women.

              Good looking, hot, sexy guys dont have to do any of that. They can get sex and affection w/o bending backwards. Without bringing anything else to the table.

    • C.I.M.
      Often the sex is quite good in the beginning. For some “strange” reason, the downturn often come pretty soon after you have entered the commitment phase of a relationship. I don’t think it’s so much a question of people just not wanting to be alone, and/or wanting a relationship at all cost, as it is a question of entering relationships on a kind of false premises…

      • @FlyingKal

        I read your post and for the life of me, I don’t get why this phenomena happens unless as soon as things get more * official* in a relationship( commitment) concurrently the element of that initial excitement with one another is dying down.

        Not dead- just dying down.

        It is impossible to have or keep the same level of sexual excitement as when you first met ,because a large part of that excitement was not knowing each other as people and one another as sexual partners.

        If anyone is thinking they can have that awesome early magic for a prolonged period of time- or forever, they are not living in reality.
        Yes, you can feel attraction to your signficant other- but will you really feel it the same way you did when you did not know them well ?

        No. That is why it was so exciting back then. You can’t make * the early part of the relationship* -sexually- ever come back.

        • Yes, it’s dying down. That’s what I meant.

          If you are in a relationship, you’re supposed to grow, together. Learn each other quirks and wishes, even the unspoken ones. Why then, is it impossible to keep the “excitement”? Is excitement for the unknown really the only thing that can spark an interest? I was as attracted to my GF after nearly 10 years as I was in the beginning, however she just grew increasingly indifferent towards me. Is it something wrong with me (and my lust/sex drive?), or is it a fundamental man vs. woman thing?

          • @FlyingKal….

            Maybe women are less suited for monogamy than men?

            From my experience, it is novelty and variety that drives a woman’s sexuality. That novelty and variety is best satisfied via different and multiple sex partners.

            This is just my unscientific view. I think this in part explains why many women can have sex with men with no strings attached. They simply need to find him attractive, safe, and a good lover.

            JMO.

  32. GREAT POST!

  33. In my mind, I’m standing up and clapping for your comment.

  34. Surely you jest says:

    HOT WOMEN SLEEP WITH A LOT OF MEN?

    UM- NOT THE ONES I HAVE KNOWN! I had friends who were average, pretty and downright beautiful.

    They did not neccesarily have sex with a lot of men in their dating lifetime- nor did they have a desire to.

    I am not judging people who want to have sex- or want night stands. I am balking at the blanket statement someone made that attractive women can be counted on having slept with a lot of men.

    I think it is backward- a lot of men might want to sleep with very attractive or beautiful women, but that does not mean those particular women reciprocated.

    Imagine if we all slept with every person we ever found attractive. What would the numbers be?
    And just because someone is attractive- is that enough incentive for everyone to have a roll in the hay?

    For me it certainly isn’t and I am a female.

    Getting back to the point of my girlfriends- from teens to present day- at first it seemed odd that these very attractive, nice females did not get asked out very much.

    THAT IS RIGHT- GOOD LOOKING- NO DATES- GO FIGURE !

    Later we learned from some men that they thought they did not have a chance with them- so they never bothered to try.

    I even learned, years later, that certain guys in my High School liked me but never asked me out because they thought they I would not be interested.

    How crazy- some of these guys I actually liked! It makes you wonder what might have been….

    I am unsure why looks equals promiscuity when your values are still your values- regardless of how you look.

    As someone single, with plenty of opportunities over the years to sleep around( a female automatically can get slept with- regardless of looks, sad to say) I was never a one night stand type of person.

    I also don’t believe in sleeping with someone unless you really care about them.

    So let me see, my number is at 4.

    Yes- 4 men and I am in my 40’s.

    If someone likes homely people- great.

    I learned years ago, in my much younger days that I dated guys I wasn’t attracted to( on looks- sometimes personality) because if they walked away- it would not hurt as much when they left.

    It doesn’t make it right- but this is late teen- up to mid 20’s thinking and it has it’s psychological roots in my rejection as a little girl by an important male figure in my life.

    If you expect them to ultimately leave, pick one who won’t matter so much when he is gone. That was my unfortunate way of thinking and coping.

    While it is entirely possible to be into dating or marrying a so called unattractive person, I think beauty or handsomeness, is in the eye of the beholder.

    I also feel personality has a lot to do with how attractive someone is as well.

    Someone who you normally would not give a 2nd look at, can become gradually very attractive as you get to know them.

    You then get turned on to them as a whole because their personality is incredible and meshes so well with your own.

    So while attraction should be there to allow for a sexual connection- I still would never write someone off based on first impressions regarding looks.

    Give any person a chance- some sort of chance to see what their personality is like.

    Unless the person is right off the back- something like the hunchback of Notre Dame or the elephant man.and you just know there is no way in hell you will ever be attracted to them- people should be given a chance.

    I just don’t get the comment someone made about good looking women having lots of sex partners.

    Maybe they have the opportunity to have lots of sex partners because of their looks- it doesn’t mean they seize it.

    I guess all the virginal looking high school cheerleaders were sluts? I mean – really- come on!

    • Very hot “high value” women don’t sleep with a lot of men only because they are in such high demand they normally go from one relationship to another without any time as a single woman. This is especially true if they’ve been considered “hot” since high school. Hot girls who blossom in college or after high school generally seem to have many partners.

  35. Peter von Maidenberg says:

    You don’t have to be all that sexually experienced to be desirable to a man.

    You damn well better to be desirable to a woman.

  36. I do want to say that personally, I’ve had a lot more bad experiences with outwardly or self-proclaimed “nice guys” (as friends and as lovers) than with guys who seem bad on the outside. One was so starved for female attention that he took it at my expense and humiliation. Two were extremely controlling and physically and emotionally abused me (one to the point of stitches). My nice guy male friends look at ex-gf humiliation sites to see if anyone they know is on there when they could just be watching p0rn. Some “neg,” which I hate. I don’t mind this one much, personally, but other girls might–some get very needy or put pressure on you. One had been too shy to meet girls so he had watched so much p0rn that he actually couldn’t perform in bed. My most stable relationships so far have been with guys who are outwardly perceived as bad boys. The first one was with a guy who punched walls, yelled, threw shit, said inappropriate comments, smoked, drank, etc. Although it didn’t work out, we’re still great friends and he’s there for me for anything I need.

    More recently, I was dating and being courted by several guys (as a conventionally attractive woman, I am able to do this). Most of them were nice guys, and most self-proclaimed. I ended up choosing to be with the one who outwardly seems like a bad boy. Not only does this guy have a girlfriend, but a vast history of drug abuse, he’s a womanizer, he’s arrogant, and almost everyone who meets him thinks that he’s an asshole. But I’ve had time to get to know these people (I don’t do casual sex anymore or just first date type things) and, apart from one of the guys who is simply too straight edged for me, this guy is by far the nicest. He treats me better than any “nice guy” ever ever did. He’s protective, strong, sweet, sensitive, gives me all the attention I need, and is loving. It’s easy to say from the outside that someone is a jerk. Did you ever bother to get to know them?

    • @Aya,…

      “My most stable relationships so far have been with guys who are outwardly perceived as bad boys. The first one was with a guy who punched walls, yelled, threw shit, said inappropriate comments, smoked, drank, etc.”

      “I ended up choosing to be with the one who outwardly seems like a bad boy. Not only does this guy have a girlfriend, but a vast history of drug abuse, he’s a womanizer, he’s arrogant, and almost everyone who meets him thinks that he’s an asshole.”

      While my intent is not to offend, these guys sound like thugs and degenerates. But, if you are attracted to these kinds of men, then what does it really say about you? I guess you do not matter that the guy has a girlfriend already and maybe you’re just another woman for him to play?

  37. And I’d like to add. Very few people are “nice” or “bad.” These things fluctuate with time and situation. This goes for all people. There are people out there who think that I’m a huge b*tch and there are people who think that I’m incredibly nice. I’ve been good in some life situations and times and bad in others. It’s not one extreme or the other.

    • @ AYA-

      It can’t possibly be just me, but I have to say this as one woman to another: are you sure you really know the idea of a nice guy?

      Because the examples you gave- the self proclaimed nice guys who actually were not and the bad boys that are bad- but not * that bad*?

      None of these men described sound like good relationship material.

      Or maybe the not so bad bad boys in your own mind are good material for you.

      Everyone has the right to feel they know what is best for them.

      So maybe they meet your needs, even if all the descriptions sound like you have very dysfunctional men in the picture or that have been in the picture in your past.

      Be careful to not repeat a pattern just because the wolf is wearing a different colored sheep’s clothing :-(

      I want to say that I am offering that as a concerned warning. am not passing judgment.

      I have made my own mistakes. Some very stupid- some comical- some a bit dangerous- some rather average poor judgment calls on men I went out with.

      I agree with some points you made; particularly about what you* want vs what you need*, and that what point you are in your life definitely happens to affect this.

      What I wanted at 19 through my 20’s is most probably( in hindsight) not even what I really wanted or needed.

      I thought I wanted a steady boyfriend when in reality, after coming out of a very bad,stifling relationship, I actually wanted freedom. This realization did not sink in at the time so yes, I was boyfriend hunting a lot.

      I notice things don’t tend to happen romantically when you set about it like a serious mission- much like hunting down prey. I think one gives off vibes or has an aura that the opposite sex picks up on.

      Does it smell like desperation? Not sure. It was not like I did not get asked out. I just felt I was being asked out by the wrong guys. But for the guys I was looking for or approached, did they pick up the urgency I had about getting a bf?

      As for your mention of emotionally manipulative or clingy men?

      Oh – gosh- that has to be one of the biggest turn offs for me.

      It is a turn off for most men when a woman is clingy or needy.

      Now picture those qualities in a man-especially if we choose to consider the male stereotype that men are supposed to be very self sufficient/stoic/ independent.

      I don’t buy into stereotypes but I know that for myself- a man who desires to be joined at the hip with me 24/7 and expects me to fufill all his emotional needs etc I am turned off very fast.

      I dated a truly nice guy in my 20’s and it went right down the tubes pretty fast because he was an example of a genuinely nice guy, but he was extremely needy, clingy and tended to actually cry a lot.

      He was also very masculine in other ways- his body build- strength – would not back down from a fight and the type of work he did that was pretty dangerous. I can’t spill details, but each time he went to work, he risked being physically brutalized or worse.

      So this was NOT a wimpy guy. He spoiled me rotten even though I asked him not too do the super kind and generous stuff so much as I knew it was costly and his time, attention and affection were enough. .

      ( That was another issue. Being spoiled is nice. But he did things to the hilt so often, it lost its special meaning after a while. )

      His leaning on my shoulder a lot. Not so much a problem as it was when he became worse in his emotional state. He was starting to have crying jags more and more often.

      There is not thing wrong with a man crying. And I feel men should be able to let go and cry whatever the reason may be.

      But this was a sign of a depression on is part, that was not acknowledged back then.

      I thought he was expressing unhappiness with work and school and his family issues….. now I know he was suffering from depression.
      Which is far more than the blues.

      What made it even harder for me, is that he not only cried- he was leaning on me an awful lot and I, too, was battling my own depression.

      At the time I did not know that was what it was- I just knew i felt horrible. Indescribly horrible/

      Seeing him in pain and crying made my own rotten feelings become magnified. I was helpless to assist him or myself, even if I was not sure what was wrong or how to fix it.

      I was not a crier- too numb from depression to cry. So two people who needed help- nice people- thrown together at the wrong time in life?

      Maybe.

      But my gut feeling is that depression or not- he would always be a guy that was needy, clingy always wanting to be with you.

      I like my space and if I don’t get some breathing room, I actually find myself getting cranky from * alone time deprivation*

      Men are not the only one that need a cave. Women caves are desired by plenty of us!

      So there is clingy, needy etc- and then there is someone in crisis or suffering from an emotional disorder. Women need to figure out what you are dealing with when it rears its head.

      I am now questioning what really constitutes a good guy and it seems that maybe we should remove the good guy- good girl label from the dating world and try to find someone who is an exemplary human being to date and hopefully fall in love with.

      Lots of bad boys put on the nice guy facade- some don’t bother too because they know the bad boy allure definitely attracts a certain segment of women.

      I think someone who just acts like themselves is a good bet.

      We need to observe- seriously take notice of the things a person says and does, in order to determine if they are a decent human being. And this observation is not just what goes on between you two. Watch what a person does in public- what they do with family- friends- workers etc and you can get a better gauge of who the person you are dating really is.

      Watch how other react to them. Positively- Negatively?

      If we all look for a kind, sincere human being as a dating partner, then maybe we have found someone we can fall in love with :-)

      • @C.I.M.,…

        This is some terrific advice to any woman. Clearly, you have the depth of experience and know what you’re talking about.

        Yes, we need to seek out decent human beings. Obviously, people prone to violence are not, in my view, decent. But, for some odd reason many women take up with these kinds of men. There is something about these men that seems to excite a lot of women, even if it results in pain and dysfunction to the women.

        So, being a decent human being is just not good enough I suppose. Perhaps, it does not create chemistry or excite and passion with a lot of women.

        Thanks for the terrific and wise commentary.

        Happy Holidays!!!

        • The point of the post was to say that people who consider themselves nice guys aren’t always so nice. That there is much more to see than on the surface. Same goes with guys perceived as jerks. What I’ve noticed a lot of men do is to look at a guy who is with a woman they want or is successful with women in general and hone in on whatever might make them seem like a jerk on the outside. Then, when they look at themselves, they fail to notice qualities and actions that make them not-so-nice. And like I said, I don’t believe in the nice guy/jerk dichotomy. People change throughout their lives and in different situations.

          • Aya

            Who perpetuates this dichotomy more than women when they are asked about their preferences in men? As I said before, ask a few thousand women what kind of a man they want and you’ll have the vast majority of them uttering the same old garbage about nice guys and how difficult it is to find them these days.

            You think men dont want to live in a world where there are no confusions about this issue? We grow up listening to this garbage about nice guys, its every where in the dating advice given to men. So you cant put the whole blame on men.

            Being Nice or Bad cannot cause attractiveness on their own. I wish more men realized this. Men who are attractive/desirable to begin with can get women easily on their own terms. These men then choose to treat them nicely or badly. More often then not, they tend to be bad because they are spoiled. Thats it. That is the nice guy -bad boy conundrum in a nutshell.

            I hate those unattractive men who are worthless in the eyes of women trying to explain their lack of success with women by saying, “hey, Im a nice guy and women only want bad boys, so you cant blame me…” Its so much easier than admitting that he is ugly and has nothing appealing about him at all.

          • @Aya…

            “Same goes with guys perceived as jerks.”

            Yup! Same goes for serial killers, rapists, murderers, and child molesters too.

            I personally do not consider myself to be a “Nice Guy.” Rather I am just a pretty decent human being who believes in and practice empathy, kindness, compassion, and a generous spirit.

            What is nice or bad to one person is different for the other. But, I do know a lot of women, especially young women, are driven by novelty and variety and that which is uncommon.
            I am Black guy and there are white women who want to screw me just for that reason, period. They could care less about my compassion, empathy, kindness…….

  38. Well, it seems * some* men on here put words in my mouth after reading my last post. Words that don’t belong to me- words I would never say or think.

    They also took their anger and biased thinking and applied it to me. Nope- I don’t own that so keep it to yourselves.

    These are the certain men commenting on here, that have such a strong inner rage at women( be it the women of their past- present or in general) that they can barely keep civil on this forum.

    I can actually feel the angry breath coming out of their nostrils as they typed their replies. Replies daring me to answer their accusations.

    Um- not sure what I stand accused of or who I am defending. Womankind? I can’t defend all of womankind because some women are lovely- some are dreadful.

    You think I as a woman would be friends with everyone women I met, just because she is on my team?
    Get real.
    The stench of misogyny was pretty clear and then I realized something: Those angry and misogynistic men probably think they are nice guys.

    Not only that- many of them see themselves as victims- or having been victimized by women.

    They are perfect- there is not one thing wrong with them.
    Which is why they cannot comprehend the lack of dates- or sex.

    Do take another look in the mirror. Are you really that nice?

    I am not a woman who walks around angry at men. But I know hate when I see it, feel it, hear it.

    There is hate being thrown around here.

    For the record, no, I don’t think women should use sex as a weapon.

    If those who read my last post can’t figure out by now that most women like romance with their sex, I can’t help them inculcate that into their brain. Women are wired differently. This is not to say some don’t like plain, raw sex- but as a rule, many like the romantic stuff.

    Stupid me assumed a lot of men were being romantic because they wanted to. Not because there was a bartering exchange going on.

    I will be romantic- if you will sleep with me. Most women, if you sincerely romance them right will dive into your arms and be more than happy to be swept away by passion and make love with you.

    But that is now how some of you painted the picture. You made it like you had to pay for sex( more or less) by being romantic, something you naturally would not do- or don’t really want to do at all.

    If you don’t want to be romantic- find a woman who is into just sex, like yourself.

    It is not my problem if you are pursuing the wrong type of women. I can’t explain to you why your gf or wife suddenly froze you out- too many variables as to why this could happen regardless of whose fault it is.

    Also women DO NOT ALL act like having sex with men is some kind of gift or trophy to dole out. How asinine.

    I thought sex( if had on a loving level) was about kindred souls in physical, emotional and spiritual unity.

    I also thought that if it was sex for the sake of sex, a woman was horny enough to want to enjoy you.

    So what am I missing here – because I certainly got the strong aura of resentment, anger, frustration floating around the forum.

    Never paint with a broad brush- which some of you are doing.

    I won’t do it with men because not only is it wrong, it is illogical.

    But I will say for those guys on here who are convinced they are a good guy but you are actually not as good as you think you are , maybe this article will change your attitude.

    It made sense to me. I have been on this site. Many men start their profiles saying how they are a good guy but can’t seem to meet a decent girl.

    Maybe that is because in their mind they are a good guy- in reality they are not so nice.

    Something to think on- I know I recall many dating sites where guys like this( in article’s examples) were rampant. I wondered how they could NOT see how mean, angry, fresh, rude etc they were being.

    At the same time I give credit to the GENUINE NICE GUYS on dating sites and the GENUINE NICE GUYS I have had exchanges with on TGMP. It has been nice sharing ideas and points of view, you behaved like true gentlemen even if you did not agree on certain points.

    (No comment on the others. They will either recognize themselves or not. One thing is a given a GENUINELY NICE WOMAN is not apt to give them the time of day once they pick up on their foul attitude toward the opposite sex.)

    Good men exist- in abundance. May they meet women who appreciate them for all they are.
    I wish the same for all the truly nice women out there- to find a guy who adores her for her.

    Happy Reading:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/nice-guys-of-okcupid-tumblr_n_2341720.html

    • FlyingKal says:

      I don’t think there’s need for anyone to put words in your mouth.
      Considering the length of your posts, I’m pretty sure you’ve already used all of them… 😉

  39. Nice guys, bad boys… what a load of crap. These articles are great for authors, because they drive a lot of traffic (129 comments and counting on this one… I wonder how many pageviews it generated) while hinting at, but not quite nailing down the truth.

    The truth is that you don’t have to be a bad boy to get laid, and putting on a bad boy costume and using “confident” body language can only take you so far (and it ain’t very far at all). What so-called “nice guys” need to truly understand is that what most nice guys consider jerk behavior is completely different from what women consider jerk behavior. I can’t begin to tell you the number of times I’ve had some dude try to take me to task for the way I supposedly disrespected some girl, only to watch his draw drop as I walked out the bar or house party with her a half hour later.

    In reality, getting girls is dead simple: It’s mostly a combination of being a bit charming/funny/carefree, a bit sexually aggressive, and having strong boundaries. Having a nice body or good style can help, but they are far from being an absolute necessity. Fame and social status factor in as well, but I don’t think they’re nearly as big a factor as some people make them out to be unless you’re only shooting for the top 5% of women in any given market.

    But once you’ve maxed out your looks and developed the right attitude, dating becomes a numbers game… The more women you talk to, the more women you are likely to attract. And here’s where the “bad boy” crap starts to roll in. Most people take offense to the thought that a guy should openly court multiple women before deciding on which one to “bun up” as a serious girlfriend or wife, despite the fact that women do this ALL THE TIME. The biggest difference between so-called bad boys and nice guys is that the bad boys have simply made the decision that his sex life and the quality of his relationships matter more to him the opinion of some random person in his extended social group. Commenter Tim said it best: Most men become jerks AFTER they start having success with women. Not necessarily because they want to, but because dating is largely a “winner take all” sort of thing. If one woman is openly attracted to a guy, you can bet that another half-dozen are secretly pining for him. It’s only natural that somebody’s feelings are going to get hurt.

    Beyond that… nearly everything said about the women wanting bad boys to have sex with and good guys for relationships is complete and utter crap. Oxytocin, the chemical that is released in both men and women during sex, is the most powerful naturally-occurring bonding chemical on the planet. Women generally want to bond with the men they’re having sex with… it’s just that these guys are unwilling to commit to one woman when they have so many other options. Most women, whether they consciously admit to it or not, do indeed “settle” for the nice guy as their general attractiveness starts to wane.

    • @DD..

      Overall, a good concise post DD. I don’t agree with everything, but most of what you say is indeed true. Getting women is about being funny, confident, carefree, and charming…AND sexually aggressive. Women love sexually aggressive men, so long as they are not crude…. Just communicate with body language that you want them sexually…I have learned this after 17+ years of a BS marriage. What a waste.

      You wrote,
      “….nearly everything said about the women wanting bad boys to have sex with and good guys for relationships is complete and utter crap.”

      Then you say,
      “Most women, whether they consciously admit to it or not, do indeed “settle” for the nice guy as their general attractiveness starts to wane.”

      Implicit in YOUR logic IS a preference by women for these so called bad boys/jerks. Women simply have the nice guy as a fall back by default “as their general attractiveness starts to wane.”

      “Women generally want to bond with the men they’re having sex with…”

      Now to me this is utter crap. What about the women who simply want casual sex or one time hookups? Surely, they are not trying to bond with these men. Even the commenter Kat above talked about how she wants nothing to do with the men or women after the one night stand. I know you did say generally, but what about call girls? Right.

      Finally as you and I would probably agree, most men do not have “so many other options.” Just the way it is.

      Cheers!

      • Jules,

        I realize this thread is mostly dead now, so I thank you for taking the time to read and respond, so I thought I should take a moment to clarify what I meant.

        You said: Implicit in YOUR logic IS a preference by women for these so called bad boys/jerks. Women simply have the nice guy as a fall back by default “as their general attractiveness starts to wane.”

        This is absolutely what I meant to imply. I think its a myth that women prefer nice guys for relationships. Many simply settle for nice guys after realizing that trying to get an attractive bad boy to settle down is a losing battle. Only the most attractive women (for their age group) will even attempt it past a certain point… and I’ve seen plenty of them — professional, solidly middle or upper-middle-class women with solid upbringings — endure all kinds of relationship transgressions to keep these bad boys around.

        Some women will argue that they’ve never gone for the “bad boy” types, and that may be true… but I’ve rarely seen it play out that way in real life. Most women I’ve heard this from aren’t the type of girls a guy like me would go for anyway (read: they’re rather plain-looking), or don’t even recognize this tendency in themselves since they haven’t been around many truly evil men. The kind of bad boys she likes may be “bad” according to the rules of her particular socio-cultural demographic, but necessarily bad in the societal sense (ie, they are not criminals).

        As far as the casual sex thing… we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Casual sex does happen, but I think it’s incidence is wildly overestimated — especially for women who are out of their early twenties. I’m in my early thirties, but I’ve dated more than a handful of girls in their early 20s this year… and make no mistake, these girls feel like they’re having casual sex out of necessity… not because its something they really want to do. In nearly every case, the guys they want most are naturally the ones they have the hardest time keeping around. So they backwards-rationalize the casual sex thing as an ego protection mechanism. Show them a high-status, attractive guy who’s also willing to stick around, and that casual sex thing goes completely out the window. Been there, done that more times than I care to remember.

        • @DD…

          This is what I believe: the men most women REALLY want to screw and the men they want to marry/settle down with are mutually exclusive. This is why sex is so lousy in marriage and long-term relationships, IMO.

          Now, whether it is as you say (the men they want are not willing to stick around) or by some other “default mechanism”, I really do not know.

          However, no one will ever convince me otherwise. I think the evidence is there for all to see, if only they opened their eyes.

          But, so many people like to PRETEND or “backwards-rationalize.”

          JMO.

  40. I like geeky men :)

  41. John Anderson says:

    @ Davaluri

    “Regarding the bad sex or no sex relationships, and what a raw,sucky deal it is to be in one?

    YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE IN ONE.”

    Your absolutely right, but I think a part of this is due to misplaced “rape culture” and “rape hysteria”. Some people advocate a enthusiastic consent standard for sexual consent, which leaves no room for compromise. If telling your partner that you’re dissatisfied with the sexual aspect of your relationship and saying that you’ll leave if it doesn’t change is equated with rape (pressuring someone for sex), what are his options if he isn’t a rapist? He could break off the relationship without explanation, which would categorize him as a “jerk”. He could lie about his reasons for leaving, which would categorize him as a “jerk”. He could stay in a sexless relationship.

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