Tom Matlack seeks to understand the conundrum of how we talk about what we talk about.
Two women, both related to me, were in my living room last night watching the newest bachelor, Ben Flajnik. For the record, one was reading a book and other was unwinding amidst a taxing senior year at college, so they both claim not to be really watching. But it was hard for me to ignore.
I was trying to work at a nearby computer, but found myself googling the newest heartthrob:
Millions of viewers shared the heartbreak of Ben Flajnik (pronounced Flannick) when his soulful and heartfelt proposal was rejected by Ashley Hebert in the emotional finale of last season’s The Bachelorette. Now Ben is ready to put all the disappointment and hurt behind him in order to move on with his life, his phenomenal success as a businessman and his search for the right woman to be his wife and to start a family with, as he stars in the next edition of ABC’s hit romance reality series, The Bachelor.
The 28-year-old bachelor has fallen in love three times (Ashley being the third), but has only proposed the one time; that one failed proposal won’t stop him from trying again. He is confident that, having found love on The Bachelorette, he will find his soul mate and a lasting, love-filled relationship this time on The Bachelor. —from ABC
Unfortunately, this description of our man Ben didn’t match up with what I was being forced to listen to on the screen (painful scenes from Sonoma, women plotting, guy awkwardly going in for the first kiss) and my source for all things that really matter in this world, Chelsea Handler, who had alerted me to some issues to look out for earlier in the week:
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I was driving my first-grade son to school this morning, fighting with him over his sweater and whether or not he would be going to an after-school baseball program, when I heard an interesting story on NPR, “China Targets Entertainment TV In Cultural Purge.”
“Tens of millions of people tune in every week to the Chinese dating show Take Me Out. It’s pure entertainment: girls in skimpy dresses hoping for a date; sweaty, geeky guys stammering questions; and two effete hosts sporting matching bouffant hairstyles.
But as of last week, the show was bumped from prime time — part of China’s latest clampdown against “excessive entertainment,” which is itself a manifestation of a larger ideological campaign.
Instead, Take Me Out’s millions of fans got Ordinary Hero, uplifting tales of ordinary people doing heroic things, like a firefighter saving a 10-year-old child stuck in an elevator. The swap was intended to promote “traditional virtues and socialist core values.”
My first thought was, “You mean we could deep six Ben Flajnik? Wow, maybe there’s a reason China is kicking our ass in everything from manufacturing to secondary education. They might be onto something here.”
But then I came to my senses. “First Amendment, Tom. Freedom of speech. Freedom of speech my friend. Our way is better. Having The Bachelor is better than Tiananmen Square.”
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But back home I kept thinking about Chelsea, Ben, “Take Me Out”, and “Ordinary Hero.”
Here at The Good Men Project we have been undergoing a massive discussion about our mission, about gender politics, about what it means to be a feminist, what it means to respect men’s rights, and how we as a media platform and social movement can do the most good. That means being responsive to what folks want to talk about but also defining ourselves in a way that stays true to our own inspiration for what this was meant to be about.
Lisa, our fearless leader, shared with me a long email exchange amongst a group of female and male evangelists on the topic of male privilege, feminism, and The Good Men Project. Two of the women involved in this exchange had already decided to cut ties to us out of frustration with our inability to understand fully the feminist point of view.
The email exchange was tough reading. Even though the men involved are among the most progressive guys I know, things quickly polarized down gender lines. And while there was a shitload of words on the page, I didn’t see much progress in bridging the gap.
I responded to Lisa in frustration, with something of a diatribe over gender theory that concluded:
“So my litmus test isn’t your dogma — it’s whether or not you are willing to write/comment/participate by focusing on the non-theoretical. To think about the specific and keep the conversation there, whether it’s about the issue of porn or just how much it hurt when you were raped when you were a little boy.”
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All of which brings me back to China and Chelsea. And, yes, The Bachelor.
The new Chinese show “Ordinary Hero” sounds remarkably like what I had in mind when I set out to start The Good Men Project. But, as I discussed with Lisa this morning, our top ten most read pieces is a kind of litmus test for us on what people actually want to read and talk about. “Why Women Aren’t Crazy” has been at the very top of a supposed men’s website for months now. And for the six months before that we had the heroic joke piece which mapped the world by penis size and made it all the way to Time Magazine for goodness sakes, because THAT has got to be news, right?
Sometimes I wonder if the neo-feminists and Ben Flajnik have it right—that we should stay as far away from reality as possible. Ben is just playing for the cameras as he looks for love, endures fights, and tries to make up for lost time.
The feminists with whom I and others at GMP have been sparring for some time now seem determined to impose a theoretical frame upon our efforts to talk about manhood through personal narratives—a frame that casts all men in the power position and by definition in need of improvement.
Both inhabit a hyped-up world where the granular truth–a truth told with innocence, courage, and the ripple effect of something so beautiful it gets passed along from one person to another for no other reason than it moves the soul–is impossible.
Sometimes I wonder if they are right because there are certainly millions of people who watch The Bachelor and a whole lot of folks who would rather we talk about feminism than the men who I think heroes for bravely sharing their stories in our pages.
But inevitably that thought passes and I become rededicated to the idea that we can publish stories about men being good and find an audience.
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Unlike the Chinese, we don’t have the luxury of telling people what they will and won’t see, or what they will and won’t watch or read.
I guess my only hope was that here at The Good Men Project, we might be able to inspire a focus on maleness that didn’t have to degenerate into either penis maps or theoretical mud-slinging but instead focus on individual stories and topics that bring fresh perspective to the changing face of modern manhood.
Maybe I was asking too much. Maybe the lowest common denominator still carries the day when it comes to media. But I would sure like to think not.
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Let me know what you think about what we are trying to do here at Good Men Project. And if you have no opinion on that topic, more important, let me know:
Is the Ben really as unattractive as Chelsea makes him out to be?
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photo: whologwhy / flickr
I go back and forth about TGMP honestly. Besides the site’s fluctuating technical difficulties, it seems torn — emotionally, demographically, theoretically, etc. — torn between Feminist apologism and Masculist apologism. It always seems as if we have to apologize for believing in whatever we believe in. Feminists have to apologize for not being able to see the good things about masculinity. Masculists have to apologize for not being Feminists. Hugo Schwyzer starts a flame war, and Lisa goes about with a bucket of water trying to save the potted plants. Call me an idealistic skeptic, but TGMP isn’t really what… Read more »
The “Be able to take it, if you dish it out” requirement is what I love most about this site! Just don’t lose that. It’s great that the authors of articles/opinions must deal with criticism instead of pontificating behind a bulletproof window. When Tom was under the gun, I was really bugged, not because he was being “challenged”, but because those who were doing the challenging so often duck on their own sites by over banning, backhanded shaming, or by letting their attack dogs police the forums. Unfettered dialogue, even if uncomfortable, is the ONLY way to learn and deepen… Read more »
I agree that on what some see as Parallel websites there is a pattern of conduct that does show a double standard – which Is why I have said Good Fences make Good Neighbours.
Some don’t want Dialogue just their own Dogma, so they fail a basic litmus test.
I agree that GMP sets The Standard, and should stick to it.
Hmmm. I don’t have a fence in my yard so you got me thinking. Reflecting, I can tolerate a bad neighbor, just not a hypocritical one as in… “Don’t gripe at me about my late night parties when you cut the grass at 8am on Saturday” So I guess I don’t mind Amanda Marcotte in my yard if ONLY she would just return the favor. But she won’t!. Maybe any guess writers here should be required to take a 1st amendment pledge mandating an open forum on their blogs, before they are allowed to write here. Whaddya think? Oh yea.… Read more »
George Orwell? He’s my Grand Daddy P^) I am a “Doubleplus Crimethinker” who refuses to accept “Doublethink” and refuse “Crimestop” – I’m a criminal “ownlifer”. I don’t go with the “Duckspeakers”, and have to be labelled as a “Thoughtcriminal” by all who fear any appearance of “Facecrime”! I think it’s a pity that Grand Daddy didn’t come up with the term “Meme” – it would have spread quicker and more deeply before it became a critical evaluation term on how both information and mis-informtion spread with such speed in these Internet days. It’s also a great shame that he called… Read more »
“Here at The Good Men Project we have been undergoing a massive discussion about our mission, about gender politics, about what it means to be a feminist, what it means to respect men’s rights..” You see Tom,You’ve put feminism before respecting men’s rights. There is the entirety of your problem. Not only have men lost rights, but as soon as we talk about them,or anything to advance men, you’ve got the feminists screaming ra-aype, but what about the ra-aype. I’ve said it before, looks like it must keep being said: We’re sick and tired of the demonization! We will have… Read more »
I like using a sex-positive framework when talking about human sexuality – with some practical caveats in-hand – I’m pro-pornography, pro sex workers, pro legalization of drugs and various other vices, pro sex-education, pro- homosexual unions etc I would suspect Gail Dines / Catharine MacKinnon would use a vastly different framework. The dominant “white man” framework will soon need a new spruced up framework – “Asian man” ?? Race is a social construct framework. Give me DNA samples of 50,000 humans from across the globe, don’t reveal their socially constructed race, and I can place them in a race category… Read more »
We have to be able to start with certain core assumptions–a framework of sorts–or we’re doomed to infinite regress. I’m not interested in that game.
Tom I sympathise greatly with your frustration. I have been reading comments here and noting manoeuvres and positioning…. it’s always the same. For what it’s worth, there has been a clear imbalance around GMP for some time, with a slow slide into gender politics. That exploded in November when certain closely held and cherished ideas were threatened. People’s frames of reference were smashed, and from where I am sitting that process is going to continue and potentially explode time and time again over the next two years at least. I think you were spot n when you said “my litmus… Read more »
But seriously if you want to try and manipulate the comment system to encourage more discussions of the stories I am sure it could be done. One of the best examples is probably how Eagle33 managed to get everyone talking that one time. I think all he basically said was can we all just say how we might have experienced something similar? Audience participation! (he was asking about bullying) Because the stories are more like a sort of play. I just find it really hard to know what to say afterwards. Sometimes I feel really bad about it too. There’s… Read more »
Thanks David. Eagle33 did a great job on that post — him and I talked quite a bit beforehand as to how to truly make it a “haven” and encourage people safely to tell their own stories. But he really took the lead on making that happen. Honestly, that’s one of my favorite success stories. I think what that points out is that if you tell the story, but then somehow point it back to the “issue” — in that particular case it was “tell us your story about abuse” — with clear guidelines of how to do that, then… Read more »
I purposely did that to make them feel validated? A feeling that someone actually paid attention and acknowledged their suffering, a comment left alone I feel leaves the other possibly feeling ignored.
Look there’s a reason that the feminists here and the MRAs here are at loggerheads. And it’s basically the elephant in the room… but I guess I wont talk about it either.
As for stories vs arguing. The thing about stories is that often at the end all I can think to say is “Thank you” and that doesn’t create a hundred page views. Nor does it spark a back and forth conversation. It’s just different.
This site is truely unique amongst web sites. It’s driven by a central concept instead of by ideaollogy. Even a fairly uneducated person like myself (probably comparatible to your “Southie” friends) can appreciate it. Just so you realize, there are still more of us than Ivy Leauge educated Bankers, Lawyers, Philosphers, etc.. I happen to love your “First Person” stories and place more “weight” in them than those “academic” arguments that “cherry pick” peices of published articles to push an agenda or argument. Kind of what a lawyer does. Never the “Whole Truth”, just pieces of it that support their… Read more »
LOL. Couldn’t have said it any better Bobbt. Yeah my buddy Todd M. is just one cool dude, where ever he ends up playing the blues.
Tom…there are enough conversation threads in your post to occupy us for a year! So I’ll try and be brief. By way of background, I’m a poet, writer and men’s group facilitator in Auckland, New Zealand. I grew up in Northern ireland and England – spent some years as a soldier and also as a semi-pro mixed martial arts fighter and instructor. I’ve seen a lot of men on their path and had too many fine male friends take their own lives. I wholeheartedly agree with you that there is a schism between established feminism and any form of positive,… Read more »
Jerry great comment. Obviously I agree with your conclusion though I don’t think it’s quite as bleak as you do. I think my real frame of reference is AA where men share their stories all the time very openly, because there very lives depend on it. Most sober drunks realize that if they don’t keep opening up in a completely honest way they will begin to lie, then drink, then die. So unlike those other temporary sharing circles my experience with men is one where honesty and sharing emotionally goes to the heart of everything everyday and is in fact… Read more »
Tom, you and Lisa both deserve a big round of applause for what you are doing at tgmp. One of the major assets you have in your favor is your even handed moderating policy. I simply cannot post comments stating that not all men have male privilege and that men face systematic discrimination in many important areas of life (both facts) on MOST feminist forums. Well, I can. But then I will be quickly dogpiled with feminists calling me everything but a nice guy, have my masculinity challenged, my ability to secure the companionship of women challenged (which is ironic… Read more »
Thanks John for the shoutout. We are working to do exactly what you say — take those issues you mention that are male focused but talk about them in a way that personalizes them without judgment (through storytelling) or talks about the issue itself, particularly how it relates to these modern times. When we put out our calls for submissions, we always ask for first person narratives *first* — but not everyone is comfortable talking about themselves. So the “issues” pieces, to me, are simply the questions people are asking, a way into further discussion, posts that give the stories… Read more »
Makes sense.
One example is worth a ream of statistics when it comes to changing perspectives.
Oh that reminds me. Wikipedia is an example of a site that has paired pages on each topic. There’s an “article” page with the public information on it, which is kept more neat and trim, and then there’s a “talk” page which is more for comments and discussions ABOUT the article page. The “theoretical” page if you like. They used to get quite rough many years ago but seem a lot calmer these days. For example here’s the talk page for “Feminism”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Feminism#French_feminism_and_Mary_Daly
That’s really interesting, David. I had no idea those pages existed…
Well @Joanna – they are very useful – and Tomorrow Wikipedia will be 11 years old. It hasn’t even become a hormonal teenager yet. It will be fascinating to see what happens when it does P^) . It’s worth remembering that Wikipedia is not written by experts, just interested amateurs. Anyone can edit a Wiki page and so many just accept what it says and accept it as reality. Anyone can “Propagandise” or “Distort” content and then present it as reality to the world. It’s a known issue of Bias and Risk that comes from less than authoritative referencing, and… Read more »
@Tom I appreciate your efforts in providing a platform for discussing topics that bring fresh perspective to the changing face of modern manhood and the freedom to contribute and comment on the opinion pieces without much moderation. But I am really surprised that you are surprised at the theoretical mudslinging on GMP. Men learn to improve themselves by the process, called male bonding, in which men share their life experiences with one another and discuss problems facing them. Older men mentor younger men by providing them good advice with sincerity. GMP would have been a good place for forming such… Read more »
There the moment you “try to find a way” to talk about things instead of just talking about them, you are straying from the path of your own truth.
This place might be shaping up.
“Both inhabit a hyped-up world where the granular truth–a truth told with innocence, courage, and the ripple effect of something so beautiful it gets passed along from one person to another for no other reason than it moves the soul–is impossible.” Does the granular truth exist without context? I one day hope to have a long in person conversation with you about stories, storytelling and more. We might disagree greatly on stories, what they mean and how they are expressed, but I’m quite sure it would be an interesting conversation, Tom. Also? I hate reality TV and think it’s one… Read more »
yes Julie in view stories do exist without context. in fact when I am truly moved by someone telling me the most honest, raw truth it very rarely matters there gender, race, ethnicity because I am connect to them on the deepest level where the outside stuff simply doesn’t matter. They are sharing with me what matters most to them whether fight a war or losing a child or battling cancer. And I am moved by their bravery in their honesty and in their life.
That’s really interesting to me. I do think we’d have a good conversation. I think there is a deep level, yes. And I think, for me anyway, it’s like Russian Stacking Dolls. There is core human stuff, and it’s always connected to other humans. Which to me means there are other stories connected to the stories. Our family of origin, our culture of origin. Etc. I do understand how moved you are, or at least I can sense how moved you are, by these moments. And in the moment between and that person, the two of you, perhaps that context… Read more »
“I think, for me, where context does matter is that we (you) are taking those stories to a national stage as a mirror to reflect, or a candle to light the way” To me the whole point is if we, behind the scenes, try to manipulate or change or somehow frame the stories of our contributors we are actually robbing them of the power. Sure the idea is to spark a national conversation about manhood. But it’s through individual stories of men (and women) who want to tell their own truth, whatever that might be. To me, I have no… Read more »
I don’t want to manipulate anything. I want to understand in order to further connection. I come from a performance background with a secondary focus on group development and leadership (with a therapeutic pov, though I am not a therapist nor want to be).. I find myself seeking more connection with you when I understand more, even if I disagree. That’s not me trying to control you, it’s me trying to find a way to connect. Unless you see connection and understanding as a form of control. I’m not sure if that’s what you mean. I think all of us… Read more »
A story told well changes the teller and the listener. It’s that simple. I say because it’s happend in my life over and over again, without reference to race, gender, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. I generally learn the most from people who are fundamentally different from me in some external way not because people like me don’t have stories to tell but people who are somehow coming at the same issue from a slightly different POV can tell their story in a way that cuts through all my bullshit, all my defenses. The hard-hat in Southie, the gay African American… Read more »
I don’t want the framework to tell the story. I don’t want the framework to control or sculpt the writers story or experience.
I want them to tell the story.
I want the framework to understand the story on my end and to be a better steward of the story as someone who edits, curates and mods.
I want to respond to this, if that’s alright. Look, I’m fascinated by context and framework and structure, and how they influence words/thoughts/actions in subtle and not always easy to digest ways. And I think there is certainly a place for that. From what I’ve seen, Lisa and Tom and the folks who help moderate and run this site are big on everyone having a voice as long as the discourse is civil. I don’t know what the back end conversations have been, but I would hope (and guess) that they have encouraged people who are into the meta side… Read more »
I can see that clearly Joe. I would say that this site is on the edge of being mildly coercive, as it tugs men into talking more openly about themselves – and doing so in front of an alive, vibrant and at times burning in flames community. Sometimes it feels like the whole community is inhaling and exhaling at the same time, in-between individual stories that are read but not commented on. They may be the problem afterall -:)
Hi Joe, I’m going to jump in here too. Yes, how to encourage a diversity of voices, yet not be judgmental; encourage real conversations yet keep them civil — well, that’s what keeps us up at night. When I see people change on this site, it’s only been for the good. I see people become more open, more thoughtful, more understand of the issues, more understanding of each other. I’m seeing more dialogue between total strangers, more willingness to share. I see extremely few (none?) who have gotten angrier or more dogmatic. There are people here who believe in things… Read more »
I guess I come at it from completely a different direction. I want to hear stories because it makes me smarter and more empathic (which I suppose is another kind of knowledge). And I suppose I also think it will make other people smarter and more empathic too, which is pretty good. So I always do try and fit the stories within my intellectual frameworks. if there story is in some ways contrary to those frameworks, they might be discouraged from sharing it If the story is contrary to the framework, to me it says the framework needs to change.… Read more »
Thank you for the hard work you do. It is refreshing to see men and women trying to understand each other and discussion is the only way to understand each other better.
You can email it to me at [email protected] and I will post.
No idea why that is happening.
To piggyback on Joe’s comment, I’d like to use the main characters of “Two and a Half Men” to further illustrate modern American media’s interpretation of men. You have Charlie Sheen’s character as the misogynist, promiscuous male (Type A) whose amnesia kicks in the morning after, compared with John Cryer’s character who is a responsible, respectful & consequently “dickless” male (Type B) that can’t get laid because he is labeled “effeminate” for being caring and accountable. At the risk of sounding trite, though trite is the name of the game, the archetypes of white males in American media fall into… Read more »
Tom, you and Lisa both deserve a big round of applause for what you are doing at tgmp. The other major asset you have in your favor is your even handed moderating policy. I simply cannot post comments stating that not all men have male privilege and that men face systematic discrimination in many important areas of life (both facts) on MOST feminist forums. Well, I can. But then I will be quickly dogpiled with feminists calling me everything but a nice guy, have my masculinity challenged, my ability to secure the companionship of women challenged (which is ironic coming… Read more »
Tom, you and Lisa deserve a big round of applause for what you are doing. I respect the both of you very much. I believe this is the only place on the internet that is doing what you are doing. One of the major strengths of your web-sight is your even-handed moderation policy. I simply cannot post comments stating that not all men have male privilege and that men face systematic discrimination in many important areas of life (both facts) on MOST feminist forums. Well, I can. But then I will be quickly dogpiled with feminists calling me everything but… Read more »
*le sigh* As one of the women involved in that e-mail exchange, this response makes me sad. Not angry, not vindictive. Just…. sad. No one asked the GMP to become a theoretical or feminist-based project – as evidence, all the women showed up originally BECAUSE we believe men need and deserve a place to tell their stories. No one wanted that to change – in fact, we all LOVE that and want[ed] to support it. Instead, we were trying to explain how themes and terms used at the GMP can be polarizing and had a deep history, that the editors… Read more »
Thank you for this summation. As another member of the email conversation I agree with your points, and I found sections of the post disconcerting. Stories don’t develop out of thin air. There are always contexts and frameworks that hold the stories and, at times, reinforce them. I find looking at the context of where stories come from extremely important towards creating a greater understanding of the people and systems telling them. It’s a concentric circle kind of thing, in my mind. Any polarizing topic, in my opinion, from the current discussions on gender, to race, to the environment, to… Read more »
Nikki: I was obviously trying to add a bit of humor to this whole thing with Chelsea, Bachelor and China et al. Sometimes it just seems to me that this gender conversation gets so damn serious that it spins us all in a black hole. If Chelsea can laugh about it I’m thinking maybe we should at least try. As for the “sadness” I guess I would say we are all still talking about it so don’t give up yet. No one has put a stake in the ground other than the folks who seem to be saying that we… Read more »
Chelsea is hilarious.
Hi Tom (and Julie!) I agree we get too serious. But there’s a reason we’re so serious about this, and that it’s hard for me, at least, to take it lightly – because there is a risk of causing harm to others outside your sphere. For instance, saying “rape culture is really just rape hysteria” undermines what we do to try and work against sexual assault, etc. Questioning its existence makes it more difficult to break it down. Moreover, saying that all just illustrates a lack of understanding about what “rape culture” really is, not that it isn’t a problem,… Read more »
Nikki: Thanks for this. I am totally with you when it comes to fighting sexual abuse in all forms all over the world, no matter what. I think its important to note that men are victims too as was just highlighted in the definition change by the Justice Department. https://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/justice-department-redefines-rape-matlacks-op-ed-on-cnn/ I also think sometimes looking at the academic studies (like the piece we just published showing how most of the END OF MEN data is just flat wrong) is important. https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/men-at-work-objecting-the-end-of-men-and-celebrating-masculinity-in-the-workforce/ As I told Julie directly on email, the success of GMP has very little to what I want or… Read more »
You have given me a lot to think about, Tom. Thank you for listening, too.
“because there is a risk of causing harm to others outside your sphere. For instance, saying “rape culture is really just rape hysteria” undermines what we do to try and work against sexual assault, etc. Questioning its existence makes it more difficult to break it down.”
Nope!
The much bigger risk is when we give those who create “frameworks”,”terms”, “priorities” and “policies”, a blank check. It is critical that society’s “bullhorns” are routinely challenged to explain, define and defend themselves.
@ Nikki “For instance, saying “rape culture is really just rape hysteria” undermines what we do to try and work against sexual assault, etc. Questioning its existence makes it more difficult to break it down. Moreover, saying that all just illustrates a lack of understanding about what “rape culture” really is, not that it isn’t a problem, *especially* worldwide (god gawd here come the rape culture comments – when anything about rape culture itself is missing the point). ” You won’t find me fighting over the Worldwide issue – have a look at the issues connected to Afghanistan and the… Read more »
Not available to view in Australia. Damn region locking:( I question the integrity of gender studies as a whole, but I do not have much experience with it. Can anyone answer if they actually study indepth the issues males face, the good and bad for both men and women? I have a feeling that they see the positives man has in society but it really does feel like they gloss over the negatives and then try to compare it to the negatives women face without studying the positives they face. In my heart I automatically question anything that only studies… Read more »
@Archy
Not available to view in Australia. Damn region locking:(
I was discussing this issue last year with some mates down under – it was all about the ACMA and their Blacklisting of website. Just Google ACMA+Proxy or ACMA+VPN and you should find many solutions to region blocking! P^)
“pushed back against decades of study, research, and theory on NOT JUST feminist issues, but those of race, gender, class, etc”
What is the quality of the research though? If it has come from women’s studies the chances are that its ideological, advocacy junk. Then we end up arguing over that, fact checking it and correcting the falsehoods and outright lies instead of our own conversations developing.
May I ask you a question This Man? I mean it honestly, not snark. Do you believe that women’s studies programs in Universities around the nation, all of whom have rigorous standards for methodological studies, publishing and so forth, publish junk? If you do, is it just gender that publishes junk? Or do studies on Race, Class, LGBT issues…is that all junk and advocacy across the nation? Some of them? I take this question seriously, as someone who has worked in higher ed for years, and as someone who has watched their husband and many friends, go through a masters… Read more »
“Do you believe that women’s studies programs in Universities around the nation, all of whom have rigorous standards for methodological studies, publishing and so forth, publish junk?” Its not a belief, its true. The abuse stats fraud is well documented and Christine Hoff Sommers and Daphne Patai have published whistle blowing books about standards of academia in women’s studies. You see it here yourself, feminists making false assertions relating to rape and abuse and x, y and z because that’s what they have been taught is true, and then those assertions being debunked. We’ve been stuck in a cycle of… Read more »
I’ll be happy to read the book. I practice what I preach in terms of learning.
Ok, I think that we should be steering away from a feminist frame of reference here and feminists should stop trying to force feed it to us as if its some kind of holy truth, its like having that psycho girlfriend that’s trying to change you, and we have our own academia, sources, gender theory, rights and advocacy groups.
eg. – http://newmalestudies.com/OJS/index.php/nms/index
Why would anyone have an issue with men studying men? Why shouldn’t we both study each other in a new clean way, since apparently there are problems with the old ways? Otherwise, I see the situation getting more polarized. Our studies/their studies. Everyone saying they have the holy truth, and then it’s a holy war.
That’s not anything I want.
“Why would anyone have an issue with men studying men?” Well here Julie. “In major Western cultures, partisan gender ideology has been permitted to monopolise and censor nearly all public discussion of gender and social relations” Which is exactly what feminists have been trying to do here on TGMP. Since the beginning there has been a pattern of Interfering and controlling behavior for feminists. That quotes from Towards an Integrated Perspective on Gender, Masculinity, and Manhood John A. Ashfield Abstract For decades our understanding of gender, masculinity, and manhood has arguably been bedevilled by uninformative pseudo-academic gender ideology. Detached from… Read more »
“unfettered by ideology”
seems like a fine goal.
I always forget her name, Daphne Patai, yes.
Yep. Gender studies is bunk. Like psychoanalysis.
Nikki D: “There is a lack of understanding of the scholarship and literature, yes (to a degree that discussions here are far behind where study actually is today), and also a resistance to contemplate the reasons why lacking that understanding is a problem, when discussing things that touch on gender, race, feminism, class, etc.” The problem you fail to see, Nikki D, is that much of this literature minimises and excludes male survivors and male struggles from the discussion. If you’re talking about terms like Rape Culture, Patriarchy, Male Priveledge, then just how they’re defined is enough to not bother… Read more »
Nikki – you know I love you! You do ! But! P^) I’m not feminist and and I’m not a men’s rights advocate – I’m a Human Rights Advocate. I have found it bizzare that there has been so much polarity and viewing of any man who does not agree with certain views that they are MRA – and that has been wrong. No matter how well behaved, rational and on point people have been – there has been a distinct group of Feminists Commenter who have made it very clear It’s their way or the highway. There has been… Read more »
Hey Nikki,
What I tend to see is that if a feminist is talking on an issue which seems legitimate, I don’t think people will try to dismiss it. The problem is more where feminists seem to have little to complain about but for some reason they just can’t drop that bone. Or else it’s an issue which effects both men and women and feminism insists on making it out to be only about women.
Someone asked me the other night how I feel right now, as a man. I told her that I feel misrepresented. We live in a culture where men are often portrayed and pushed into one of two archetypes: the macho / smooth / too cool for school and on the other side of it men who feel like they have no power and aren’t able to feel good about themselves (and they often blame women for the inequity). Inevitably there are men who comment on this site who are playing out those two archetypes, but there are also some really… Read more »
Thanks Joe for the thoughtful comment about archetypes and how we are trying to walk the tight rope of allowing conversation and having a mission that we stick to.
I guess my only hope was that here at The Good Men Project, we might be able to inspire a focus on maleness that didn’t have to degenerate into either penis maps or theoretical mud-slinging but instead focus on individual stories and topics that bring fresh perspective to the changing face of modern manhood. Which is exactly why I subscribed–not to argue with feminists or anti-feminists and not to throw theoretical hand-grenades, but to read and participate in a forum where guys who don’t or won’t usually reveal much of their thoughts for fear of being thought weird, actually open… Read more »
Thanks Rev Dave. I am glad you did. You are my kind of guy.
Rev Dave’s statement aptly encapsulates my view. The GMP should ultimately provide a how-to resource and communication aid for those who aspire to be good men, not a forum for those with gender-based theoretical axes to grind. When it deteriorates into too much of the latter, I mentally check out. Of course, by restricting the access of theoretical axe-grinders, you will cut down somewhat on your traffic in the short run, but will increase it (and more fully achieve your presumed objectives) in the longer run.
Thanks, Nick. For all the theorizing, postulating etc, sometimes, even according to Freud, “a cigar is just a cigar.” You’d better duck; I think there’s something incoming.
There is no reasoning with a polemic Tom, its their way or no way. I think that some bridges should be built between the magazine and the men that dare to define themselves, discuss gender outside of the polemics parameters and call the polemic out on its misinformation and problematic legislation. In Australia, the polemic is suppressing most of the child abuse data, to make it appear as if its fathers that are the main child abusers, in order to legislate against men in general, this is being done an academic and gov. level. There are lots what should be… Read more »
We’d certainly be interested in understanding better what is going on in Australia on the child abuse front if there is someone willing to write about it for us who can provide objective data and/or first person experience.
Here Tom, I think that you might enjoy some of these papers about masculinity and some of the current issues we discuss here.
http://newmalestudies.com/OJS/index.php/nms/index
Ok Tom
You will receive something at your g-mail account.
I think one of the incredible things about this site is the license you have given your contributors to contribute. Besides, nobody would get here to read my boring opinion pieces on politics or religion if they didn’t get here to read the article about sex or dick jokes first.
Stay the course bro. The numbers don’t lie…
Jake you are a rock star.
The other major asset you have in your favor is your casual moderating policy. I simply cannot post comments stating that not all men have male privilege and that men face systematic discrimination in many important areas of life (both facts) on MOST feminist forums. Well, I can. But then I will be quickly dogpiled with feminists calling me everything but a nice guy, have my masculinity challenged, my ability to secure the companionship of women challenged (which is ironic coming from feminists). While the feminists are allowed to use any profanity, if I respond with the least bit snarky… Read more »
The feminists with whom I and others at GMP have been sparring for some time now seem determined to impose a theoretical frame upon our efforts to talk about manhood through personal narratives—a frame that casts all men in the power position and by definition in need of improvement. Well yeah there is room for improvement, its just that they idea of “improvement” isn’t the same as what others are thinking (may maybe its that presumption of a power position). Sometimes I wonder if the neo-feminists and Ben Flajnik have it right—that we should stay as far away from reality… Read more »
Danny can you explain what ” presumption of a power position” means?