Mark Manson thinks that we’d all have better relationships if we stopped playing games, from the get-go.
–
In my previous article about Vulnerability and Manipulative Women, I bashed using teasing/banter as a basis for demonstrating sexual interest. I referred to it as “a horrible mindset” and implied it was dishonest.
As usually, whenever I turn my nose up to this type of flirting someone always chimes in and says, “Aw, come on Mark, it’s harmless flirting. Why are you being so hard on it?” Some people even get upset, saying they “love” the verbal sparring that comes with this type of sexual interaction. They even get angry sometimes, like I just pissed on their dog or something. But I see it as derogatory, and that’s not a good thing.
But the reason I’m hard on derogatory flirting is because it’s a shitty way to instigate a sexual relationship. Fact.
Some people love the teasing and the innuendo and the “hard to get” stuff and the verbal sparring and the never-ending competition for dominance. These are usually the same people that are complaining that they can’t find a high quality man/woman and will bore you with calamitous break-up story after calamitous break-up story at the drop of a hat. Cry me a river.
Derogatory flirting sucks because it muddies the waters of intention and emotion, possibly the two most crucial components of a healthy sexual relationship (both short-term and long-term). In derogatory flirting, you’re never quite sure of what the other one is feeling or meaning, and often you lose track what you feel or mean yourself. It’s designed that way. It distorts sexual interest, undermines consent, needles the other person into being insecure around you, and not to mention is absolutely exhausting to keep up.
Pretending you like her less than you do so that she’ll like you more than she says she does so you can then like her more than you say you do so she feels comfortable liking you back more than she says she does — I’m exhausted just writing about it. But it also tees you up for future headaches. A number of people asked in regards to the previous article, “What if she’s manipulative but you just don’t find out until much later?”
That’s the problem. With derogatory flirting you don’t really see what the other person is made of until way down the road, often after it’s too late to get away without getting your face scratched. You could be going to bed with the most psychologically fucked person and have no idea. And for those of you just looking for a good time, this form of flirting is what creates that gnawing sense of having to constantly convince, or even trick, someone into sleeping with you. It’s not fun.
When you attract through honesty and vulnerability, you find out who you’re dealing with early on: their values, their intentions, their comfort level with their own sexuality, their beliefs about men/women and sex. You can screen these manipulative people out within the first couple minutes. You can also judge basic sexual compatibility within a couple hours. You never have to feel like you’re coercing anyone into sleeping with you. Since you’ve already been so open about your beliefs and intentions, a simple, “Let’s go to my place,” doesn’t seem out of line or inappropriate at all. It seems like a reasonable question and a logical next step in the interaction.
1. Sexual Rejection Feels Shameful
English-speaking culture is unique in that rejected displays of sexual intention are seen as shameful. I believe this is the root of our bizarre flirting behaviors. A failed sexual pass at someone is grounds to be shamed and humiliated by our peers and society at large. This has been inculcated in us from a very early age.
(Note: By English-speaking cultures, I mean former English colonies and to a lesser extent Scandanavian countries.)
It’s important to understand the difference between shame and embarrassment or shame and guilt. Embarrassment is a temporary negative state due to an external situation. Guilt is the judgment of an action or external situation as bad or wrong. But shame is an actual judgment of character.
If you feel guilty about doing something, it’s the action that is deemed wrong or incorrect, not you. But if you’re shamed about doing something, it’s you that is deemed wrong or incorrect.
In our culture, we socially reinforce shame in each other for our failed sexual intentions. You see it in movies and TV shows, where the bumbling idiot with the girl is always the loser character, where the sexually expressive character is almost always the bad guy. You see it in high school and colleges where kids make fun of each other for their unrequited sexual intentions. Many families in our culture refuse to openly talk about sex to their children. Kids are discouraged to “experiment” when they’re young. Nudity is something to be ashamed of and hidden. Public displays of affection are ridiculed and people are told to “get a room!” so others don’t have to be exposed to their sexual interest in one another.
There’s just a general discomfort with sexual intentions that you do not find as prevalent in other parts of the world.
Sure, in other cultures, there’s some embarrassment and discomfort around some of these things, but their societies don’t actively shame people the way we do. Ask an Italian guy the last time he felt ashamed of telling a woman she was beautiful. Chances are he’ll look at you like you just crapped on his lawn.
The paranoia and fear, particularly in American culture, doesn’t help either. Girls cockblock each other out of some deranged honor code, as if every guy in every bar is America’s next serial rapist. Women are slut-shamed by both men and other women. Men are ridiculed for their lack of sexual conquests and then ridiculed even more for trying.
There’s shame everywhere. It’s a sickness. It causes epidemics of emotional/sexual dysfunction. And it inspires weird and inefficient strategies of displaying affection. There’s a reason dating advice is a nine-figure industry in the English-speaking world and not elsewhere.
2. Showing Affection Through Implication or Exaggeration
Since people in the English-speaking world are shamed into not showing affection or sexual interest overtly, we learn to do it covertly. We imply our interest and our feelings instead of expressing them openly. We’re taught that dating is a series of “signals” transmitted to one another in innocuous, mundane ways such as playing with one’s hair or “accidentally” brushing up against their leg or conveniently mentioning that one will be hanging out at the skating rink at 7:30 or whatever.
Humor accomplishes this well too. If you joke about liking the person, then you can display your true feelings without anyone being able to shame you for them. After all, it was just a joke, right? This then forces the other person to decipher what you actually mean or if you actually feel a certain way. So they might joke back to see what your reaction is.
Another more subtle form of implication is through exaggeration. Everything is “The best thing ever!” Even minor, annoying acquaintances are “best friends,” and mildly exciting occurrences are described as “awesome” or “totally insane”. These expressions get cheapened in our culture because it’s seen as inappropriate to express these emotions in a situation unless there’s been some sort of monumental occurrence. Therefore people pretend that everything is a monumental occurrence.
3. Affection Through Teasing and Insults
In the process of implying affection through other actions and words, it seems we agreed as a society to perceive teasing and insults as a socially acceptable form of affection and attention. This is most common in the UK, but exists everywhere in the English-speaking world. You bond with your friends by trashing them and embarrassing them. You flirt with girls by insulting them. It’s like a playground: boys are smelly; girls are icky.
When everybody decides that insulting someone in a humorous way is an indirect way to show affection, then it becomes the new norm. Guys make fun of each other. Girls challenge guys and are “sassy” when they actually like them. Men tease women and attempt to make them insecure and vice-versa. All of these behaviors aren’t just avoiding the actual emotions and intentions, but they become the socially acceptable way of demonstrating sexual interest.
A society that agrees that sexual interest should be demonstrated through dehumanizing and insulting another person is a screwed up society.
The problem here is two-fold. First, one is never 100% sure of other’s intentions, again leading to that murky area which leads to poor relationship choices. The second problem is that while we may consciously know someone is joking, our unconscious still internalizes it. For instance, if your friends always teased you by calling you “Shorty” growing up, even though they did it out of affection, it’s likely you internalized it and ended up insecure about your height.
So although good-natured ribbing, this derogatory flirting reinforces the already-dominant precedents of shame between men and women. If a girl blows you off and doesn’t sleep with you, not only do you face the shame of the rejection, but she spent half the night joking about your car and acted unimpressed by your job. This is the new norm.
The two best-selling dating advice books for men and women are The Rules (for women) and The Game (for men). In The Rules, women are advised to pretend they don’t like men that they’re actually interested in. They’re told to make him call her multiple times and to pretend to be unimpressed with him at all times. In The Game, men are advised to “neg” women into being insecure about themselves, usually about their appearance.
This is honestly what we’re taught in our culture. Like somebody? Then treat them like shit!
4. Over-Compensation
The social stigma surrounding sexual rejection, the poor expression of emotion, the derogatory flirting, these things give sex a weight in our culture that you don’t find in many parts of the world. In the Engligh-speaking world sex is a really big deal. In most other cultures, sex is an enjoyable side-effect of an otherwise normal existence. In the English-speaking world, sex is something to be worked for, fought for, and achieved. It’s talked about ad nauseam, and dominates our pop culture.
Because it’s taboo and requires so much social risk, people lash out and over-compensate. The English-speaking world has the highest levels of casual sex and one-night stands in the world. We also have some of the highest rates of alcohol consumption and binge drinking. The habit of getting really, really drunk and then finding someone to fuck is a cornerstone of our party culture (see: any movie about college) and few others.
You see this in pop culture: entire movies and TV shows built entirely around sex and the obsessions associated with it. Sure, sex sells the world over, but rarely do I see it glorified/stigmatized as much as I do in English-speaking culture. Sex is a large part of machismo culture for Latin men, but there’s no social shame for being rejected by the women and there’s no confusion about their emotions. Sex appeal is glorified in women in Eastern Europe, but you don’t see the slut shaming that goes on in the West. Prostitution is accepted as a normal part of life throughout much of Asia and men and women are not judged for participating in it.
To put it bluntly, most English-speakers are still on that same playground, calling boys smelly and girls icky, while sneaking behind a tree to kiss each other, still hoping nobody else finds out. We’re stuck in place, and largely because our society shames us for going any further than that.
Perspective
Now before I get 500 comments telling me that I’m a reverse-bigoted asshole and that I generalize and that I don’t know anything and blah, blah, blah; let me pull this all together and throw a big floppy bow on top.
First off, teasing and some natural jibing between friends or two people who trust each other, there’s nothing wrong with it. It can be good, honest fun. The problem is when it becomes a basis of showing affection and appreciation to one another.
I recognize that no culture is perfect and other regions have problems that are just as apparent as ours. Let me take a step back and explain my little theory.
Historically, to thrive all societies needed to figure out a way to enforce cultural cohesion and create social order. As Freud pointed out decades ago, historically, for a civilization to thrive, it had to have a way to cull and organize its people’s sexual impulses into a neat system. A civilization can do this in two ways: through formal institutions and laws, as well as through cultural norms and societal beliefs. And different culture developed different cultural norms to enforce this social order.
Latin cultures have an intense fixation on romance, jealousy and possessiveness (it’s no coincidence that they have more infidelity than anywhere else). Islamic cultures do it through pure fear and retribution. Hindu culture does it by arranging marriages. Japanese culture does it through codes of honor and integrity.
And the English-speaking cultures do it through shame.
There is no “good” solution in any of these. All of them are repressive in their own way. Ours is repressive in that it inhibits open communication. It’s no surprise that the English-speaking countries have the highest divorce rates in the world (and it’s not even that close).
I suppose you could have the argument that our way is better/worse than the ways other cultures do it. But that’s a discussion for another day.
Originally appeared on MarkManson.net
I really enjoy the good men project, but articles written by dating coaches are by far the most disappointing. Unfortunately, I clicked the link to the article on venerability and after reading it, I was unable to really pay any attention to this particular article. However, if I had known the author was a former PUA “something”, I would not have read either article. I have read several articles by this author and although there are some very judgmental and shame based statements made with respect to neediness, and there seems to be some contradictions between terms used like boundaries… Read more »
wait, there are people that do this? weird
Interesting article. I would like to make a few observations: We all play games. It’s part of dating, flirting and the dynamics between the sexes. The question is whether you play right and play fairly or are you being abusive (or abused). Further, teasing is not the same as insults. While the latter is bad, the former is one of the most powerful way to create attraction on all levels. And the smarter, more educated, and more a witty a person is, the more likely he/she is to appreciate and respond the same. There is no better verbal foreplay than… Read more »
Thank you for being a rational, clear-minded person here!
Very well said…I refuse to conform to societal norms. I am very open and honest from the start. You are correct that it also helps us learn who we are truly dealing with in the beginning.
Sex work in Asia, (prositituion is a derogatory term btw)
Is not acceptable for women. For the most part, it means you will be (just like in most places in the world) ostraciszed from your family and rejected.
Don’t romanticize cultures you clearly know nothing about. It’s harmful.
Mark, this is an absolutely brilliant, excellent piece of work you have here. And there’s one major, major pitfall that you will hopefully discuss. So most people who read this, who do play social games, are first going to look outside themselves, and go heap a pile of blame on other people’s feet without recognizing that this message is entirely for them. That’s an inherently human problem, and one of the greatest pitfalls of this kind of analysis. Most people (it seems) don’t have a healthy enough ego that they can recognize that this message is for THEM!!! Not their… Read more »
Absolutely untrue. I’m the type of person who immediately tells the person in whom I’m interested, directly, that I’m attracted to them for the exact reasons I am and that I’d like to get to know them further. The majority of the time it scares the crap out of them because they’re not accustomed to someone…bam…laying it all (verbally) on the table. I’m the exact opposite of this article and I’m fully aware that this article has nothing to do with my behavior…and I can still see it clearly for EXACTLY what it is; the author fingerpointing at exes who’ve… Read more »
This is a very insightful article. As a woman I don’t like it when I regress in to shame mode and I have to be very aware of what I am doing when I meet someone I like now because I revert into this playground very fast. I know I don’t want that type of relationship at all and I am only discovering that you don’t need it or to be ashamed to want an honest one. I never new what was wrong until recently when I caught myself calling a guy names who messed me around but in fact… Read more »
This is the problem with modern moralism, it’s no different than old age religion. This entire argument is predicated on socially constructed ideas of right and wrong and argued without reference to facts, makes unsupported claims and argues for a single idea without exploring alternatives. Flirting and teasing are biologically determined behaviours, our species way for participants to test each others sense of value, strength and personal resilience. Fundamentally, we are finding out if the other person thinks they are worthy, how well they can fight to preserve their territory and whether they have any debilitating insecurities. i.e. are they… Read more »
I agree that flirting through negging is and should be a non-starter. Most of the other things stated here are, in my mind, erroneous. I lived three years in Western Europe, and I don’t think flirting there was any different that it is here. Gentle flirting gives us time to assess whether we want to be with the other person, and– guess what– it can be savored like a fine wine. Yes, some of it is based on fear of rejection, but who cares? Statements about how the macho stance of Latin men is healthy because they don’t fear rejection… Read more »
Thank you.
After my divorce I met a man who was all about honesty. It was refreshing as I had decided to disregard all “advice” I’d been given on dating and flirting due to the inherent dishonesty and immaturity I found in it. No games. Our relationship flourished and although both of us were a bit scared at first we soon realized that the other really meant it when they called for honesty. Our relationship moved pretty fast because we didn’t need to wonder and negotiate those games people play. We moved in together within two months and have been together for… Read more »
You reminded me once again why I love this site. I love that fact that I can actually see that there are intelligent, thoughtful, respectful men who care about themselves and their relationships and aren’t afraid to express it. Thank you for helping me not feel like the complete oddball for refusing to participate in these juvenile, derogatory games that produce nothing respectful or cherisable. Kudos, big time.
This is honestly missing that the playful jibes that he disliked so much should not be done to show sexual interest but to gain comfortable familiarity with someone before sexual interest is shown or even felt. People should be taught to second guess their initial attraction and undercut it with friendly playful interaction in order to give yourself a chance for a second opinion about how you feel about them and give them a chance to form a first opinion about you. His article for ridiculous when he said it was Ok for friends but not Ok for showing attraction.… Read more »
You nailed it. One of the reasons banter works is because it’s play that reminds us of how we interact with family and friends, and encourages us to show the best side of ourselves. Banter done right doesn’t feel like violence. (Flirting is designed to make the other person feel good, remember?) It’s not negging, it’s not full-on feigned disinterest. It’s playful sparring. It’s the difference between a tennis match and a fistfight – one is exhilarating, makes you focus to keep up, and gives you a chance to admire your opponent’s skill, and the other leaves you feeling grumpy… Read more »
To clarify: making fun of someone’s insecurities is awful and is not flirting. It’s very bad form, and if one hits a buried landmine by mistake the proper response is an immediate apology and a quick offer of kindness (everything from lending the other party your hat they complimented for the night, to immediately disclosing a perceived weakness or embarrassing moment of your own in turn, to buying their next drink has worked either for me or on me), then changing the subject and never hitting that button again. Anyone who uses teasing-style flirting as an excuse to pick on… Read more »
“Another more subtle form of implication is through exaggeration. Everything is “The best thing ever!” Even minor, annoying acquaintances are “best friends,” and mildly exciting occurrences are described as “awesome” or “totally insane”. These expressions get cheapened in our culture because it’s seen as inappropriate to express these emotions in a situation unless there’s been some sort of monumental occurrence. Therefore people pretend that everything is a monumental occurrence.” First of all I just wanted to say – Great article. Some really valid and interesting points made about shaming and the pure headache that is flirting. I was however slightly… Read more »
Nice piece. Great insight. I read very little on this fascinating subject and it’s great to read someone who knows what they’re doing. I would like to make this observational point. Many people, regardless of gender, (excluding sociopaths, psychopaths and others) are drawn to those who feel stronger and are not intimidated by them. Many of those same people will tell you there are few things less attractive then a partner or prospective partner who simpers or whines or lacks confidence in any large measure. They are more likely to be attracted to a celebrity they will never attain, than… Read more »
“A society that agrees that sexual interest should be demonstrated through dehumanizing and insulting another person is a screwed up society.” Amen to that. We don’t only see that in our interactions with one another but through how our society chooses to create and subsequently watch media that is more times then not sexually dehumanizing and insulting to another person. I agree with much of what was said except the comparisons to other cultures. You’re largely talking about other cultures (Islam, Hindu, Japanese culture) that have just as many, if not more, regulations for sexuality in behavior rooted in shaming.… Read more »
This was an excellent article. It’s clear you have given these ideas a lot of thought as the way you lay it out is fluid and concise. I really appreciated your insights about exaggeration and also about the subconscious internalization of ribbing. These problems go beyond flirting. We all are motivated by shame. In Alice Miller’s “The Drama of The Gifted Child” she discusses how as babies and children our parents are not able to love us unconditionally. They may remove their love if we cry too much, or if we masturbate. Since we depend on them to live when… Read more »
Just so long as everyone knows there place. and that place is in awe of my high amounts of win and awesome.
Negging is really nasty, and I’m surprised that it ever works. Great article.
Wow this has been the best advise/article on relationships I’ve read so far. Most articles are actually based on how to play games. Not to show too much interest etc. Then we wonder why relationships end before they really develop.
I am surprised that you didn’t mention how religion has formed the moral back- bone and sexual ethics in both Western and Eastern societies. It is religion that has influenced social and sexual interactions in both parts. A number of religions view sex as a means of procreation within marriage or a sanctified union rather than a means of pleasure between two unmarried consenting adults. It is these values that have brought about the ideas of shame and guilt when it comes to issues of male sexual prowess, sexually aggressive female behavior, promiscuity, and our proposed gender roles in dating… Read more »
Great insight into a social area that has always amused and distressed me. I’ve never been good at flirting , because I’ve never been keen on it, for many of the very reasons you wrote. Good stuff.
Fantastic article as always Mark. My favorite part is the labelling of how different cultures develop different cultural norms to enforce social order (Latin cultures through jealousy and possessiveness… Islamic cultures through fear and retribution… Japanese cultures through codes of honor and integrity).
Great insights all around that I had not yet considered.
Thanks for posting GMP.
You’re right on the money. Shame is a huge component of western culture. And I invite everyone reading GMP to notice how much shaming is a part of the article mix here these days. When Tom Matlack started GMP (no, I don’t know him personally), his basic idea was to have a platform where “good men” – men of character and virtue – could tell their personal stories. In many ways, he was borrowing from the model of Alcoholics Anonymous – where people with good program tell their first person stories as a way of inspiring other members to work… Read more »
Thanks for this comment. I”m new to this issue, at least as it’s being discussed online. I see so much grimness, rage, or scolding at the MRA sites and sites like this one. There are frequently controlling prescriptions offered here, as if a one-size-fits-all straitjacket is the best solution. Out in the world I see and hear misogyny, aspects of “rape culture,” male-bashing, biases subtle and obvious, my own set of defaults in play, a lot of bumping into things and each other in a society that is seeing large changes in the way men and women identify themselves and… Read more »
Paul- Rapey is bad; simple and to the point.
I suggest that we add: 90+ % of the rape discussed at GMP isn’t occurring without massive amounts of intoxicants being present… So why do we keep going round and round on the subject- it’s not average Joe & Jane getting jammed up, it’s bar dogs…
Men and Women who are getting stewed enough to have regrettable sex probably are drinking rather than reading….
MGTOW is not about misogyny, but about saying no to a system we have been taught to buy into since we were kids. It’s about ignoring social, religious or any other type of pressure to conform. In the case of men, it means we don’t have to be good little husbands and providers. Our lives are our own and we don’t ask anything of anyone else. We don’t “expect” anything from women, just as they should not expect anything from us.