Confidential to the guy who’s asking Amie Longmire out on a date: she wants you to succeed at dating her. Here’s how.
I will not pretend to understand what a man goes through when asking a woman on a date. I can’t speak for women everywhere but what follows are friendly reminders in case you find yourself about to ask me out.
1. My first date expectations.
I only have one. To get to know you better. I never say yes to a date out of pity or expecting an engagement ring. I’m treating the first date like a scrimmage. It’s not the big homecoming game. We’re not there yet. Getting to know me is going to be a long distance run not a wind sprint. I won’t be giving you enough information about me on the first date to make any life long plans. Even if our chemistry is clicking, I try to avoid hormonal decisions. It might not be romantic or polite to bring this up right now but, I need to know that we can actually be friends, that I can trust you with who I am, and trust you, that I can make you laugh, that I can genuinely laugh at your jokes. I fear I’ve used all my sports analogies in the first paragraph.
2. I have a no drama policy.
I love my life. I am not a victim and I don’t need rescuing. I’d consider rescuing a puppy. Never men. Leave your baggage at the door, be honest about its existence, and I will do the same for you. I don’t speak in “girl code” and I don’t play mind games. I’m sorry if previous women have left you feeling used and abused but I am not other women. You can take me at my word. Elisabeth Elliot once said, “You marry a sinner. There’s no one else to marry.” If this first date eventually turns into a trip down the aisle, we will be unpacking our respective histories together for years to come.
3. Reframing a successful relationship.
I believe that God brings us together for reasons we don’t always understand at first. Not all dates go well or turn into lasting romantic relationships. Some dates seem doomed and rally after some time has passed. You and I have both picked our way through rigorous dating terrain. Can we both agree to treat each other with kindness no matter what happens?
If we are being ourselves, our expectations mutual, and we find that one of us no longer wants to continue, we will have the guts to be honest about it. No dropping off the face of the earth, or suddenly losing your number. If we are honest from the beginning, determining that we cannot move forward is a way of coming to a successful conclusion. This is a difficult talk to initiate. It should be an open dialogue.
I don’t have a poker face. I’m a terrible actress. If it’s not going well on my end, I will not be able to hide it. On the bright side, if it is going well, you will know immediately.
4. Let go of your list.
You know the one … At some point you sat down and wrote out the list of qualities you want in a spouse. We’ve all done it. I did it. In my early twenties I made a comprehensive list (it was more than 2 pages). I folded the list and lost it pretty quick. Several years later, I found it again, read it, laughed, and made a new list in my journal (only one page this time). I’m pretty sure a few more years went by before I found it again. Rereading it, I noticed something. The qualities I asked for where all things that I wanted to manifest in myself. I want to be a better leader, a stronger communicator, financially responsible, faithful in the small things … Shouldn’t these be basic prerequisites for everyone?
You can save your list if you feel strongly about it but, I don’t want to hear of it for a long time (say years). Reducing me to a list tells me that you care more about your own agenda than you do about learning who I actually am. It’s a back handed way of telling me that I’m an object.
5. I am not an object.
Neither are you and I promise not to treat you like one. I’ll give you a tip. Most men are not chatting me up because they think I look smart. I live in Los Angeles. I’m tall. I’m blonde. I like to wear cowgirl boots. But there is so much more to me than these superficial things. You’ll win my attention and respect pretty quick if you can make me laugh and ask me intelligent questions.
6. Dynamic characters only.
I teach college writing courses and I find myself telling my students the same thing over and over. A story where nothing happens and the character never changes cannot be counted as a story at all. I want the story of my life to be filled with adventure, growth, laughter, love, risk, and whimsy. I think God’s imagination for my future is immeasurably larger than anything I could come up with on my own. I’m looking to spend my life with someone, possibly you, in such a way that when our lives merge, we are a force of nature the likes of which the world has never seen. This is a tall order, not for the faint of heart. Only dynamic characters should apply.
7. Be a gentleman and treat me like a lady.
I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with my coat the first few times. I’m my father’s fiercely independent daughter. You will need to remind me that you are doing this because you are a gentleman not because you think me incapable. I need your help remembering these things.
8. Avoid a post date freak out.
Are questions and doubts plaguing you after you say good night to me? Do not freak out on me. I’ve seen great guys get derailed this way. There is a phrase I’d like you to remember: object permanence. Object permanence is Jean Piaget’s idea that objects (or people – in this example only) continue to exist even when you cannot see them. Babies haven’t learned this yet. It’s the reason they love to play peek-a-boo.
If you wake up the morning after our date and wonder how it went or you’re doubting the effectiveness of a punchline or if something I said confused you, know this: If our motives were clearly stated, mutual, and honest, there is no reason for second guessing yourself or me. You are free to proceed with confidence. I hope that you will.
Good luck. I’m rooting for you.
P.S. I’ve always wanted to try kayaking.
Read more: What Does Your Online Dating Profile Secretly Say About You?
Image credit: BiblioArchives / LibraryArchives / Flickr
About Amie Longmire
thank you for your delightful and insightful article, amie. much of it resonated with me and is applicable to the kind of dating i look for and am experiencing. i don’t think i’ve ever had a bad date, which i credit to there being millions of good people in the world and me sincerely wanting to get to know them for who they are. how else will i find the someone who is a great fit? who wants the kind of love i want to have with him? force of nature, indeed.
obviously you’ve hit a nerve, one that i find a lot on this site. i don’t understand why i hear so many men say that they are frustrated because they do not understand women and then balk at any information that is offered. and it makes me sad that some men and women in general seem to be mired in their history and their patterns and have decided that they can’t do something to improve how they experience the world. ironically, the tendency toward negativity is pointed out in the comments more than once.
i appreciate a number of the thoughtful remarks by others above. a good piece gets folks talking.
lucy
@lucy…
“i don’t think i’ve ever had a bad date, which i credit to there being millions of good people in the world and me sincerely wanting to get to know them for who they are. how else will i find the someone who is a great fit? who wants the kind of love i want to have with him?”
This is truly great to hear. Just as I have never met a stranger!
I think this is because you are truly and open minded and non ego driven woman. You seem to approach every person with a mind set to truly discover and learn about them. I must say the majority of women are far far more discriminating such as the author.
Always great to read a positive and open minded comment.
@Lucy: As a man, I have heard this advise from women, about what they want for 40 years, and what some men, like myself, are saying is this advise doesn’t work for us and we see many problems associated with it, most of which have been stated over and a again. I certainly don’t think that disagreeing with said advise is being negative at all.
We are searching for something other than what the limits of the dating advise in the article has for us.
We are tired of the courting, of the constant uplifting onto pedestals of his woman that he must do to even get his foot securely in the door, we are tired of the pressures to prove ourselves worthy that never go away. And for what? We are saying that there must be something more for us out there. I don’t think that many of us have decided that we can’t do something to change how we experience the world.That is why we are here on this site, looking for change.
Quite frankly, the idea that people such as this are unhappy, because they don’t have romance in their lives, is only thought by people who actually believe that romance is critical to having a good relationship. For my money women like this don’t want a good relationship they want fantasy. ” We are a force nature, the likes of which the world has never seen.” It all reads wonderfully romantic and when I let go, I get a sensation of warm and fuzzy all over just thinking about it. I’d settle for a woman who knows herself and is confident. Finally, don’t ask me to be gentleman unless you are going to be a lady. Don’t ask for doors to be open for you and all of the other “place her on pedestal ego boosting stuff she likes”, if I don’t get what I want…maybe like her serving me meals while she wears a skimpy maids outfit.
It seems no matter what dating advice het women want to give het men to help them out, we’re being entitled, lazy, manipulative, contradictory and prescriptive to even *suggest* that you might do something differently. EVEN if we offer it as “This is specific to me and what I like and probably won’t work for everyone,” our advice is lumped in with some ongoing and indecipherable female narrative.
I’m sort of with what Wanda said on the previous commenting page – if dating is so awful, I don’t know why anyone chooses to participate.
No, we think you’re entitled when you make entitled suggestions. What does this chick offer me? A list of demands. She thinks men ignore her because she looks smart — wrong. Always. 100%. Every time. A smart-looking beautiful woman will be beating them off with a stick. That is, unless “smart” is being usec as a euhemism for “overweight and doesn’t give a damn about her appearance”. Kind of like a man with a gut in sweatpants and crocs saying women are intimidated by his intellect. He’s kidding himself.
Like men, women should tell you what they offer you, not what they demand.
@KKZ: Which is precisely what men are doing. Men don’t want to hear all of the things women want… we get too much of that …women don’t seem to hear that message. So, they keep giving men the same old warmed over advise, slightly reformed bs as something new. When a woman hears give dating advise to men, it is understood by the woman as,” I get to make demands and tell him what I want.”
This only works because men haven’t figured out that as long as they have no leverage, nothing will change. At the end of day, as long as women can get away with this behavior, they will. I am not saying or suggesting that morality is at work, that women are purposely exerting power over men to be mean…doesn’t matter. So, for me, I don’t the advise, I want a conversation about relationships that is inclusive of my needs and wants. I think that”s fair and reasonable.
howabout you stop calling guys Nice Guys ™ and treating them like their subhuman pieces of $%*#
Amie, I think you might be entertained (and better served) if you have a read of my own adventures in creating prudent lists in order to find an ideal woman:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/14/qualities-of-the-prince/
That was one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while.
“4. Let go of your list.”
kind of ironic for someone who ha, y’know, ahem, a list….
And peeps ask why I’m MGTOW….
“4. Let go of your list.”
kind of ironic for someone who ha, y’know, ahem, a list….
Yeah, my thoughts exactly.
I think this is why so many men on this site get worked up whenever a woman or feminist either gives men advice or lectures them about dating.
It’s perfectly okay for women to have an extensive checklist of what they require in a guy. Or, as male feminist Hugo Schwyzer would say, it’s not women being too picky it’s men not offering enough.
And yet if guys have a list, well, then they’re either being shallow or have unrealistic standards. If they can’t find women, they either need to become more open minded, or they have only themselves to blame for being single.
Again, it’s the hypocrisy.
No it’s not. When she says “a list” in the original article she doesn’t mean any list, in fact you could avoid anything resembling a list and still make that mistake. In her description she makes a long list of specific qualities, only to ignore it and laugh at it years later. When she wrote the list, she wasn’t thinking about real men, but rather her fantasy man. However comparing a potential partner to a fantasy partner is usually a useless exercise. Also, judging someone on more specific qualities is usually useless. Though admittedly, if that was her point, she didn’t communicate it well.
This piece is going to make Amie Longmire famous. Good and hard.
ha! i’m a horrible critic when it comes to writing – hence the reason i’m not a college prof…
but fun article, and i love the upfront honesty. you can’t go wrong in writing from your own vantage point. personally, what i’ve realized this past year, is when it comes to the dating scene, i want to spend time with men who value me. 2 wins for me: if you think i’m pretty, say so. and if you say you’re going to call, please do so.
This advice is kind of… dumb, on its face.
Think about it for a second: you’re telling men what you want them to do to win you over. Which means that, if the article is 100% successful and the men you date do what it says, they’ll be purposefully acting in a way that is not natural to them.
So on one hand, it’s “be yourself”. On the other, its “be confident but not too confident.” What if, for any particular man, him “being himself” means being insecure? Or being arrogant?
So now he’s putting on an act, to whatever value, which is inconsistent with his natural character – firstly, do you think that can last, or be the foundation of a meaningful long-term relationship? Secondly, wouldn’t YOU harbor some serious resentments if you had to put on some similar show in order to prove yourself to be “good enough” for a man?
> I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with my coat the first few times.
Do that, and a true gentleman won’t be around for you say it to a second time.
> If you wake up the morning after our date and wonder how it went or you’re doubting the effectiveness of a punchline or if something I said confused you
A guy with those worries should instead be concerned about the future’s “fun” Christmas sweaters he’ll be forced to wear and figuring out the best way to hold your purse for you.
Overall, I think a lot of men would reply, “Thanks for the warning, Amie”.
So, wait, a true gentleman is someone who gets upset and leaves unless he gets to “act like a gentleman”. A good man will offer to open the door for a woman, a gentleman apparently will DEMAND the privilege of opening a door for a woman, and when denied will avoid her. “I am going to give you an delicious cookie and if you don’t eat it you will never see me again!”
I think the point is that you shouldn’t be worrying about specific moments in a date. A single bad joke or awkward moment won’t ruin your chances. If all else fails, you can ask her what she meant next time you talk. Some women might drop “Big Hints” and expect you to read their minds, but others, including Ms. Longmire, expect you to ask for clarification.
Is this a real article or an Oscar Wilde-like satire on what American women are like?
I’m having a hard time believing that the following sentences aren’t meant to be read in a high-pitched Victorian-inspired voice for a character whose motivation in life in “instructing” a parade of hapless suitors on the finer points of how to behave. Call it “The Impotence of Being Earnest.”
The scene: a well-appointed living room where are teacher holds court in front of a motley band of schlubby social misfits who seek her hand in courtship. Like the Iago character in “Othello,” she feeds them bad advice to further her own devious ends, which in this case include free dinners, out-of-style-boots (which draw a round of chuckles from female audience members), and kayaking lessons. The audience laughs uproariously at the most pretentious lines, such as:
” I need your help remembering these things.”
“If this first date eventually turns into a trip down the aisle, we will be unpacking our respective histories together for years to come.”
The fun really comes, though, as she wildly starts to gesticulate, raising her voice to an ear-splitting high pitch, while her minions — all sitting at her feet in criss-cross applesauce position — nod approvingly:
“This is a tall order, not for the faint of heart. Only dynamic characters should apply.”
“Good luck. I’m rooting for you.”
I want to applaud the author for devising a deliciously wicked parody of the type of self-deluded, entitled American woman that populates certain urban areas. This character is cleverly drawn because it is the female equivalent to the basement-dwelling gamer geeks who write on message boards about how Internet models don’t measure up. As for the author of this piece, I encourage her (or him?) to take it to the stage where it should be a hit with audiences for years to come.
Oh and if this one-act play seems kind of short for an evening out, I’d recommend putting it on a double bill with a musical: “Cats.”
@Days of Broken Arrows: We should be so lucky. If this advice were an Oscar Wilde play, at least, it would be entertaining. The scary truth is, I saw this entire scenario played out on an episode of Jimmy Neutron this morning—it was a slow news morning–what can I say? Cindy, who is about ten to eleven years old and is the girl of Jimmy’s nightmare’s, is waxing poetic in the malt shop ( do malt shops still exists?) kickin’ it with her females— who look suspiciously like the crew from The View– about why she won’t settle.
She’s holding out for the man of her dreams, someone who will make her every moment sing and make life worth living.On cue, In stumble’s Jimmy and in front of a stunned and stupefied audience he drops to one knee and professes his love for Cindy…who promptly disses him for embarrassing her in front of all of her friends, and she hits him in the face with her ice cream cone.
In next scene Jimmy is begging Cindy to give him a chance to..wait for it…PROVE himself worthy of being her boyfriend. Keep in mind that usually, Jimmy, a nerd of the highest order can’t stand the ground Cindy walks over, and is perfectly happy studying, inventing gadgets and hanging out with his pals. Also bear in mind that Cindy is cast as a independent kind of gal.
I am just thinking, one cloud put this cartoon on between plays.
“Be a gentleman and treat me like a lady.
I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with my coat the first few times. I’m my father’s fiercely independent daughter. You will need to remind me that you are doing this because you are a gentleman not because you think me incapable. I need your help remembering these things
.
If she is likely to get offended at chivalrous gestures why expect them in the first place?
Isnt it a ‘die if you do, die if you dont’ kind of a situation?
This article is pointless because it violates the cardinal rule of understanding women: don’t pay attention to what they SAY, only what they DO.
Aside from that, it feels like I wandered onto “The Atlantic” or “Salon”‘s website.
Has anyone tried the gender flip test on this yet?
When I did it, I was embarrassed to discover that I have internalized some double standards of my own. When I imagine a man publishing a comparable field guide to dating him, I picture a man who is egotistical. I picture a man who is not nearly the catch that he thinks he is, a man who has perhaps overinflated what he has to offer to a relationship. I can clearly see a man who will be roundly denounced for being too full of himself.
Maybe I’m just jumping to the conclusions I want to jump to. I’m curious to see the results when other people run the article through the test.
@wellokthen: I tried to flip the script, but found that I was unable to get anything out of the exercise since taking that position is so foreign to me. I do have standards, but reality has taught me that standards without flexibility makes me just as narrow as those others.Besides, this is where my experiences as a man of color maybe gives me an advantage as I have always known that my way or the highway isn’t always a good position to take. I have had to learn to share and take a backseat to the needs of others. Most of these women who feel this way are likely white/upper-middle class women or are women who aspire to that lifestyle.
These women are among the most privileged and pampered( relatively) in the history of the world. I proudly come from a slave class who just was able to win a questionable freedom only 147 years ago–historically, the equivalent of a drop of water in a tsunami– and only got the right to vote, that was protected and enforced, since 1964–a full one hundred years after so called “emancipation”.
Why is it that when we see a guy pay for a billboard on the freeway expressly so he can find a wife we call him a desperate loser, yet when a woman essentially posts her dating profile on a blog (with far more visibility than a billboard) we take it as sage advice?
I flipped this script a long time ago:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/14/qualities-of-the-prince/
At first glance this seemed to be excellent advice, (from a socially liberal POV anyway), though on second glance I see how she contradicts herself with some more…traditional..advice, not to mention how it could be confusing. Her ideas on dating are not as well thought out as say Scarlateen or really anyone who regularly blogs on the subject. (I may have been substituting ideas from other blogs as I read it that first time).
The most obvious contradiction is #7, where she notes “I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with my coat the first few times.” She was raised to be fiercely independent, but you look back to the title “7. Be a gentleman and treat me like a lady” So basically her instinct is to be independent and open her own door, but she expects you to push through that in order to be the traditional chivalrous guy. She sounds conflicted. It seems that she was raised to be men’s equal, but somewhere along the way she was told that dates are supposed to work THIS way. However chivalry comes from a time when women, or rather high class women, were viewed as being like golden idols, super valuable worthy of care and protection, but not as capable of men.
There are A LOT of people calling her out. With the above contradiction and a few others, it is partly understandable. However many people seem to think she’s incredibly entitled and delusional because she asks things of the men she dates. Well, DUH!! Any relationship, and I don’t mean any romantic or sexual relationship, even friendships, has to provide SOMETHING for the people involved. Even if that is just an opportunity to joke and laugh with someone who understands your jokes. You don’t have to pay for dinner, but you do have to keep your promise to show up, and resist the urge to eat her food, and other things that are all part of not just being a decent date, but being a decent human being.
To me it seems fairly obvious that this isn’t meant to be advice about dating Amie Longmire, but rather women in general. Amie Longmire is merely the author and a case study. Yes I know what the title says, but if you took that literally you are an idiot. She would have to be massively narcissistic and delusional to write an article thinking the majority of the GMP readership wants to date you. The title implies that, but the circumstances (an article on a blog) contradicts it. Of course some people prefer to see woman as narcissistic and delusional.
Actually there are a lot of comments here who have a problem with the mere idea of a woman giving men dating advice. However if you are trying to date women, who better to learn about women then someone who is in fact a real live woman! That is no guarantee that it will be good advice, but again, the average woman knows more about women in general than the average man. This should be obvious and self evident. Yes, advice for dating women will mention the things women want, but that’s not the same as saying that women deserve the world. If you don’t think women deserve X, then fine, just take a moment to double check your logic, sport.
If you feel that she is being entitled, what things do you think she’s being entitled to that are beyond the realm of basic human decency? I explored the opening of door, other “gentlemanly” behavior, and then there’s Kayaking, or is that enough to swear off dating her?
I love the tone and information of this article. The “I want you to succeed” attitude seems great to me throughout and encourages authenticity and confidence (contrary to what some of the PUA community will teach men about dating). I like how this piece emphasizes that it’s about getting to know the person, slowly. About a real connection, slowly building trust, not do-or-die. I worry that many men put pressure on themself that the first date HAS to be Earth-shattering to the other person to feel okay.
“If we are being ourselves, our expectations mutual, and we find that one of us no longer wants to continue, we will have the guts to be honest about it. No dropping off the face of the earth, or suddenly losing your number. If we are honest from the beginning, determining that we cannot move forward is a way of coming to a successful conclusion. This is a difficult talk to initiate. It should be an open dialogue.”
I love this part- two adults, honest, straightforward, be yourself, and if there is a genuine connection, things will work out. If being yourself doesn’t work, thank goodness it won’t progress to something further.
Well written all the way through.