Confidential to the guy who’s asking Amie Longmire out on a date: she wants you to succeed at dating her. Here’s how.
I will not pretend to understand what a man goes through when asking a woman on a date. I can’t speak for women everywhere but what follows are friendly reminders in case you find yourself about to ask me out.
1. My first date expectations.
I only have one. To get to know you better. I never say yes to a date out of pity or expecting an engagement ring. I’m treating the first date like a scrimmage. It’s not the big homecoming game. We’re not there yet. Getting to know me is going to be a long distance run not a wind sprint. I won’t be giving you enough information about me on the first date to make any life long plans. Even if our chemistry is clicking, I try to avoid hormonal decisions. It might not be romantic or polite to bring this up right now but, I need to know that we can actually be friends, that I can trust you with who I am, and trust you, that I can make you laugh, that I can genuinely laugh at your jokes. I fear I’ve used all my sports analogies in the first paragraph.
2. I have a no drama policy.
I love my life. I am not a victim and I don’t need rescuing. I’d consider rescuing a puppy. Never men. Leave your baggage at the door, be honest about its existence, and I will do the same for you. I don’t speak in “girl code” and I don’t play mind games. I’m sorry if previous women have left you feeling used and abused but I am not other women. You can take me at my word. Elisabeth Elliot once said, “You marry a sinner. There’s no one else to marry.” If this first date eventually turns into a trip down the aisle, we will be unpacking our respective histories together for years to come.
3. Reframing a successful relationship.
I believe that God brings us together for reasons we don’t always understand at first. Not all dates go well or turn into lasting romantic relationships. Some dates seem doomed and rally after some time has passed. You and I have both picked our way through rigorous dating terrain. Can we both agree to treat each other with kindness no matter what happens?
If we are being ourselves, our expectations mutual, and we find that one of us no longer wants to continue, we will have the guts to be honest about it. No dropping off the face of the earth, or suddenly losing your number. If we are honest from the beginning, determining that we cannot move forward is a way of coming to a successful conclusion. This is a difficult talk to initiate. It should be an open dialogue.
I don’t have a poker face. I’m a terrible actress. If it’s not going well on my end, I will not be able to hide it. On the bright side, if it is going well, you will know immediately.
4. Let go of your list.
You know the one … At some point you sat down and wrote out the list of qualities you want in a spouse. We’ve all done it. I did it. In my early twenties I made a comprehensive list (it was more than 2 pages). I folded the list and lost it pretty quick. Several years later, I found it again, read it, laughed, and made a new list in my journal (only one page this time). I’m pretty sure a few more years went by before I found it again. Rereading it, I noticed something. The qualities I asked for where all things that I wanted to manifest in myself. I want to be a better leader, a stronger communicator, financially responsible, faithful in the small things … Shouldn’t these be basic prerequisites for everyone?
You can save your list if you feel strongly about it but, I don’t want to hear of it for a long time (say years). Reducing me to a list tells me that you care more about your own agenda than you do about learning who I actually am. It’s a back handed way of telling me that I’m an object.
5. I am not an object.
Neither are you and I promise not to treat you like one. I’ll give you a tip. Most men are not chatting me up because they think I look smart. I live in Los Angeles. I’m tall. I’m blonde. I like to wear cowgirl boots. But there is so much more to me than these superficial things. You’ll win my attention and respect pretty quick if you can make me laugh and ask me intelligent questions.
6. Dynamic characters only.
I teach college writing courses and I find myself telling my students the same thing over and over. A story where nothing happens and the character never changes cannot be counted as a story at all. I want the story of my life to be filled with adventure, growth, laughter, love, risk, and whimsy. I think God’s imagination for my future is immeasurably larger than anything I could come up with on my own. I’m looking to spend my life with someone, possibly you, in such a way that when our lives merge, we are a force of nature the likes of which the world has never seen. This is a tall order, not for the faint of heart. Only dynamic characters should apply.
7. Be a gentleman and treat me like a lady.
I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with my coat the first few times. I’m my father’s fiercely independent daughter. You will need to remind me that you are doing this because you are a gentleman not because you think me incapable. I need your help remembering these things.
8. Avoid a post date freak out.
Are questions and doubts plaguing you after you say good night to me? Do not freak out on me. I’ve seen great guys get derailed this way. There is a phrase I’d like you to remember: object permanence. Object permanence is Jean Piaget’s idea that objects (or people – in this example only) continue to exist even when you cannot see them. Babies haven’t learned this yet. It’s the reason they love to play peek-a-boo.
If you wake up the morning after our date and wonder how it went or you’re doubting the effectiveness of a punchline or if something I said confused you, know this: If our motives were clearly stated, mutual, and honest, there is no reason for second guessing yourself or me. You are free to proceed with confidence. I hope that you will.
Good luck. I’m rooting for you.
P.S. I’ve always wanted to try kayaking.
Read more: What Does Your Online Dating Profile Secretly Say About You?
Image credit: BiblioArchives / LibraryArchives / Flickr
So let’s step back a bit and have a meta-conversation about this blog from Amy, and all the clearly disapproving comments it is getting from a lot of men, and all the surprise women are expressing about these disapproving comments. What’s going on here? Well, the first thing that’s going on is that we’re reading yet another in the apparently endless parade of blogs, articles, etc etc etc in which women (and sometimes other men) feel it is their responsibility to “help” men up their game, and go from being sub-standard overgrown children to being (in one of a thousand… Read more »
I liked this a lot. I’ve been married a few years, so it doesn’t really pertain directly to me anymore. I do have one issue, and it’s probably sort of a Myers-Briggs type of thing, however. It’s the no drama business. Let me give you some context. When I was on the market, I was frequently quite attracted to lady scientists. I had two long term relationships with this type of woman. They were both very attractive, good conversationalists, and not particularly hung up. I’m a sociologist, but I’m a feeling type on the MBTI (scientists tend to be thinking… Read more »
Notice (ladies and gentlemen) how the onus here is on the men to succeed in winning over the woman. “I want you to succeed. Good luck”…etc, etc, etc. Let’s queer it up to clear it up: Gay men and lesbian just don’t talk to one another this way, as part of their own dating/mating monkey dance. The onus is on BOTH to be the woo-er AND the woo-ee. I want you to SUCCEED? Good LUCK? Are men applying for a JOB here? The truth is, Amy, that until you disabuse yourself of that old-school sort of thinking that others have… Read more »
PUAs seem to aim for quantity… Trying to treat one girl as special seems antithetical to their dogma— “one-itis” is something that should be rejected…. Because if it is easier to score with drunk party girls at the local bar or club, then why bother taking the time getting to know someone and making a deeper connection because you think she is one of a kind?
I am a little surprised at all of the negative comments in response to this article, which is largely positive in tone and fair-minded in its analysis of the pitfalls of dating. And guys, in case you are not aware of it, there are all kinds of websites out there that offer women advice regarding “how to understand men,” “how to figure out what men REALLY want,” “how to decipher what it means when he emotionally withdraws,” “how you can attract him and keep him,” etc. etc, etc. I could go on for days. And my attitude is: Why must… Read more »
none of it has to be that complicated. we all make it complicated.
really, though, people have been surviving without these articles for thousands of years. these people are all just trying make a living writing.
I love the tone and information of this article. The “I want you to succeed” attitude seems great to me throughout and encourages authenticity and confidence (contrary to what some of the PUA community will teach men about dating). I like how this piece emphasizes that it’s about getting to know the person, slowly. About a real connection, slowly building trust, not do-or-die. I worry that many men put pressure on themself that the first date HAS to be Earth-shattering to the other person to feel okay. “If we are being ourselves, our expectations mutual, and we find that one… Read more »
At first glance this seemed to be excellent advice, (from a socially liberal POV anyway), though on second glance I see how she contradicts herself with some more…traditional..advice, not to mention how it could be confusing. Her ideas on dating are not as well thought out as say Scarlateen or really anyone who regularly blogs on the subject. (I may have been substituting ideas from other blogs as I read it that first time). The most obvious contradiction is #7, where she notes “I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with… Read more »
Has anyone tried the gender flip test on this yet? When I did it, I was embarrassed to discover that I have internalized some double standards of my own. When I imagine a man publishing a comparable field guide to dating him, I picture a man who is egotistical. I picture a man who is not nearly the catch that he thinks he is, a man who has perhaps overinflated what he has to offer to a relationship. I can clearly see a man who will be roundly denounced for being too full of himself. Maybe I’m just jumping to… Read more »
@wellokthen: I tried to flip the script, but found that I was unable to get anything out of the exercise since taking that position is so foreign to me. I do have standards, but reality has taught me that standards without flexibility makes me just as narrow as those others.Besides, this is where my experiences as a man of color maybe gives me an advantage as I have always known that my way or the highway isn’t always a good position to take. I have had to learn to share and take a backseat to the needs of others. Most… Read more »
Why is it that when we see a guy pay for a billboard on the freeway expressly so he can find a wife we call him a desperate loser, yet when a woman essentially posts her dating profile on a blog (with far more visibility than a billboard) we take it as sage advice?
I flipped this script a long time ago:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/14/qualities-of-the-prince/
This article is pointless because it violates the cardinal rule of understanding women: don’t pay attention to what they SAY, only what they DO.
Aside from that, it feels like I wandered onto “The Atlantic” or “Salon”‘s website.
“Be a gentleman and treat me like a lady.
I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with my coat the first few times. I’m my father’s fiercely independent daughter. You will need to remind me that you are doing this because you are a gentleman not because you think me incapable. I need your help remembering these things
.
If she is likely to get offended at chivalrous gestures why expect them in the first place?
Isnt it a ‘die if you do, die if you dont’ kind of a situation?
Is this a real article or an Oscar Wilde-like satire on what American women are like? I’m having a hard time believing that the following sentences aren’t meant to be read in a high-pitched Victorian-inspired voice for a character whose motivation in life in “instructing” a parade of hapless suitors on the finer points of how to behave. Call it “The Impotence of Being Earnest.” The scene: a well-appointed living room where are teacher holds court in front of a motley band of schlubby social misfits who seek her hand in courtship. Like the Iago character in “Othello,” she feeds… Read more »
@Days of Broken Arrows: We should be so lucky. If this advice were an Oscar Wilde play, at least, it would be entertaining. The scary truth is, I saw this entire scenario played out on an episode of Jimmy Neutron this morning—it was a slow news morning–what can I say? Cindy, who is about ten to eleven years old and is the girl of Jimmy’s nightmare’s, is waxing poetic in the malt shop ( do malt shops still exists?) kickin’ it with her females— who look suspiciously like the crew from The View– about why she won’t settle. She’s holding… Read more »
> I will say, “I got it” when you hold a door for me or help me with my coat the first few times. Do that, and a true gentleman won’t be around for you say it to a second time. > If you wake up the morning after our date and wonder how it went or you’re doubting the effectiveness of a punchline or if something I said confused you A guy with those worries should instead be concerned about the future’s “fun” Christmas sweaters he’ll be forced to wear and figuring out the best way to hold your… Read more »
So, wait, a true gentleman is someone who gets upset and leaves unless he gets to “act like a gentleman”. A good man will offer to open the door for a woman, a gentleman apparently will DEMAND the privilege of opening a door for a woman, and when denied will avoid her. “I am going to give you an delicious cookie and if you don’t eat it you will never see me again!” I think the point is that you shouldn’t be worrying about specific moments in a date. A single bad joke or awkward moment won’t ruin your chances.… Read more »
His point is that if she can’t be enough of a lady to be gracious when he acts like a gentleman, he’s not interested in pursuing the relationship.
Pretty simple stuff, really.
This advice is kind of… dumb, on its face. Think about it for a second: you’re telling men what you want them to do to win you over. Which means that, if the article is 100% successful and the men you date do what it says, they’ll be purposefully acting in a way that is not natural to them. So on one hand, it’s “be yourself”. On the other, its “be confident but not too confident.” What if, for any particular man, him “being himself” means being insecure? Or being arrogant? So now he’s putting on an act, to whatever… Read more »
ha! i’m a horrible critic when it comes to writing – hence the reason i’m not a college prof… 🙂 but fun article, and i love the upfront honesty. you can’t go wrong in writing from your own vantage point. personally, what i’ve realized this past year, is when it comes to the dating scene, i want to spend time with men who value me. 2 wins for me: if you think i’m pretty, say so. and if you say you’re going to call, please do so.
katrina says: if you think i’m pretty, say so. — And just a few weeks back, the men here were treated to a heartfelt screed about how we should NEVER make a compliment about a woman’s looks. And that (no offense to you personally) is why men are simply turning off women and their endless “advice” to us on how to be up to snuff, rather than sub-par. At some point, perhaps, the broad lack of responsiveness, manifesting right now as a sociological withdrawal by many men from het dating/mating, will make all of the advice giving women think about… Read more »
This piece is going to make Amie Longmire famous. Good and hard.
“4. Let go of your list.”
kind of ironic for someone who ha, y’know, ahem, a list….
And peeps ask why I’m MGTOW….
“4. Let go of your list.” kind of ironic for someone who ha, y’know, ahem, a list…. Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I think this is why so many men on this site get worked up whenever a woman or feminist either gives men advice or lectures them about dating. It’s perfectly okay for women to have an extensive checklist of what they require in a guy. Or, as male feminist Hugo Schwyzer would say, it’s not women being too picky it’s men not offering enough. And yet if guys have a list, well, then they’re either being shallow or have… Read more »
No it’s not. When she says “a list” in the original article she doesn’t mean any list, in fact you could avoid anything resembling a list and still make that mistake. In her description she makes a long list of specific qualities, only to ignore it and laugh at it years later. When she wrote the list, she wasn’t thinking about real men, but rather her fantasy man. However comparing a potential partner to a fantasy partner is usually a useless exercise. Also, judging someone on more specific qualities is usually useless. Though admittedly, if that was her point, she… Read more »
Amie, I think you might be entertained (and better served) if you have a read of my own adventures in creating prudent lists in order to find an ideal woman:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/14/qualities-of-the-prince/
That was one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while.
It seems no matter what dating advice het women want to give het men to help them out, we’re being entitled, lazy, manipulative, contradictory and prescriptive to even *suggest* that you might do something differently. EVEN if we offer it as “This is specific to me and what I like and probably won’t work for everyone,” our advice is lumped in with some ongoing and indecipherable female narrative.
I’m sort of with what Wanda said on the previous commenting page – if dating is so awful, I don’t know why anyone chooses to participate.
No, we think you’re entitled when you make entitled suggestions. What does this chick offer me? A list of demands. She thinks men ignore her because she looks smart — wrong. Always. 100%. Every time. A smart-looking beautiful woman will be beating them off with a stick. That is, unless “smart” is being usec as a euhemism for “overweight and doesn’t give a damn about her appearance”. Kind of like a man with a gut in sweatpants and crocs saying women are intimidated by his intellect. He’s kidding himself. Like men, women should tell you what they offer you, not… Read more »
@KKZ: Which is precisely what men are doing. Men don’t want to hear all of the things women want… we get too much of that …women don’t seem to hear that message. So, they keep giving men the same old warmed over advise, slightly reformed bs as something new. When a woman hears give dating advise to men, it is understood by the woman as,” I get to make demands and tell him what I want.” This only works because men haven’t figured out that as long as they have no leverage, nothing will change. At the end of day,… Read more »
howabout you stop calling guys Nice Guys ™ and treating them like their subhuman pieces of $%*#
thank you for your delightful and insightful article, amie. much of it resonated with me and is applicable to the kind of dating i look for and am experiencing. i don’t think i’ve ever had a bad date, which i credit to there being millions of good people in the world and me sincerely wanting to get to know them for who they are. how else will i find the someone who is a great fit? who wants the kind of love i want to have with him? force of nature, indeed. obviously you’ve hit a nerve, one that i… Read more »
@lucy… “i don’t think i’ve ever had a bad date, which i credit to there being millions of good people in the world and me sincerely wanting to get to know them for who they are. how else will i find the someone who is a great fit? who wants the kind of love i want to have with him?” This is truly great to hear. Just as I have never met a stranger! I think this is because you are truly and open minded and non ego driven woman. You seem to approach every person with a mind set… Read more »
@Lucy: As a man, I have heard this advise from women, about what they want for 40 years, and what some men, like myself, are saying is this advise doesn’t work for us and we see many problems associated with it, most of which have been stated over and a again. I certainly don’t think that disagreeing with said advise is being negative at all. We are searching for something other than what the limits of the dating advise in the article has for us. We are tired of the courting, of the constant uplifting onto pedestals of his woman… Read more »
@wellokthen: I can get behind the idea that all humans are complicated creatures, no problem, However, what really happens in this debate of whose complexities are the most important and whose complexities are gonna ultimately shape the relationship? Are they viewed equally as having the same weight or are women judging themselves by a different standard of confidence than she does herself? Saran says that she isn’t turned on by the shy guy type and that she wants a partner as confident as she is. Really? Then when Sarah is experiencing some tough times because of recurring body image issues,… Read more »
“That this double standard of perception is normalized is of one of the reasons that women feel entitled to have their cake and eat it too. When their politics run in the opposite direction of their sexual desires, they feel no need to directly address and take full responsibility for their self imposed limits of their choices, and decisions about who they are.” I totally agree having had two long term relationships where my partners embodied what you’ve just said. But here’s why it exists; because they simply find another guy to fill that missing void. In the past I… Read more »
@John… “There isn’t much I can do to change who I am so I just get used to swimming in a sea of rejection.” If you change your thinking, you CAN change your life. What’s great about America is we can find what we are really seeking! We just have to be willing to change our thinking and approaches. Many ethnic women do not have these lousy attitudes. While my experience in dating is limited I have met lots of women from South America, Spain, Carribean. They are far more “man friendly.” There is no need to give up. Stop… Read more »
@Julia Byrd: I would have to agree with your advice that there are other women of different cultures who behave differently than the kind of American women you speak of. Having read many, if not all of the posts from a variety of women on many similar topics on GMP, coupled with my own experiences and those of my friends and older men I have known, it is hard not to conclude that what you advise is not the best avenue to tread. The truh is, even if American women get the memo, it will be generations before the kind… Read more »
While my experience in dating is limited I have met lots of women from South America, Spain, Carribean. They are far more “man friendly.”
I’ve also heard great things about Eastern European and Southeast Asian women.
Maybe it’s time for me to start learning another language.
Actually in my comment, I used the word “competent” not “confident.” There’s a difference. I don’t have a bias against shy guys, in fact my boyfriend is quite shy and introverted (engineer). What I meant is, I am personally a very competent person, able to plan and organize my life, and want men who are the same. I don’t like passivity. I don’t want to be with someone who expects me to plan everything for them and never has ideas of their own, The conflict I have is that many men are intimidated by powerful women, but at the same… Read more »
I think there’s a difference between feelings and behavior, and I think it’s important to be honest about feelings and be able to put a particular feeling into a larger perspective. For example, if a man felt a little intimidated by you at first impression, that is not the end of the world. It would be great if he could be honest about that at some point, and of course you wouldn’t want him to be totally distracted by that feeling, but it doesn’t have to be the dominant feeling he has. Who knows, you both might be able to… Read more »
You make some very good points here. The only thing I would add to what you said is that a relationship is still something two people take part in. If one person’s complexities matter in the relationship more that someone else’s complexities, that is something that both people have set up. Past a certain point, if her feelings dominate the relationship, that’s because he has consented to let that be the rule. Maybe he doesn’t know any better or he feels manipulated into that kind of relationship, but it takes two to make an emotional dictatorship. I’m not saying the… Read more »
he said that when he was in the US he had to do like 80% of the legwork when it came to dating. His feeling was if women want all things equal why not carry their fair share. For me, that basically summed up the problem with dating and what the solution should be. A journalist from Britain had similar observations. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/its-hard-dating-american-women-6318739.html They invariably had a check list of questions that they shamelessly ran through over the course of the evening. What did I do for a living? What part of town was my apartment in? What kind of car… Read more »
Man, he knows the NYC dating scene well, and it is depressing.
What he says about the NYC dating scene seems to equally apply to the Bay Area. Ditto for Southern California. Maybe there’s just something about soulless yuppie culture, as parodied and critiqued in the movie “American Psycho” so well, that creates such a dehumanizing dating scene. One woman from rural Oklahoma commented on the British journalist’s article, saying that women in rural parts of the country were much friendlier. So maybe the depressing “American” dating scene is more of a regional problem, with big cities and affluent suburbs being the worst. But I wouldn’t get my hopes up too much… Read more »
As someone from the country . . . the women might be friendlier, but they have just as many problems. And I moved to the city to get away from the men in the country (well, I moved to the city for a lot of reasons, but the boys my age drove me CRAZY, and not in a good way). Friendlier, yes. Less misogynistic? Ahaha. Ha.
Women in rural areas may be friendlier, but they are fewer and farther between. When I went back to my rural home town after college to join the family business, it seemed like all the unattached women were hiding. I eventually realized that while I was going to college, the women in my age group either got married, or went away somewhere for an education or a career and never came back.
So most of the dating advice I got back then didn’t work as it assumed the presence of available women.
Yeah, this type of objectification does not get the same type of negative press as the other kind.
When you come across strangers who have ridiculous expectations, at the end of the day you just have to let them have their ridiculous expectations. If they live in a fantasy world or demand superhuman companionship, then they are setting themselves up for disillusionment. If you fail to meet someone else’s impossible standards, then that’s really the other person’s problem, not yours. Don’t debate with the insane. Don’t try to change the mind of someone who’s not connected to reality. Move on and look for sanity elsewhere.
From the perspective of this particular man, it sounds like generally good advice to bear in mind. Don’t go overboard, take your time, be yourself, get to know each other, don’t panic, keep your expectations realistic, and treat her like an individual human being and not “all women” nor an object. It’s refreshing as long as you don’t read too much into the particular details. The part about treating her like a lady and acting like a gentleman would probably confuse some readers. I know it did me. What I heard was that a man should hold the door like… Read more »
While I found a lot of parts of this article problematic, the “list” thing is common with both genders. People concoct ridiculously long lists of supposedly unimportant things that their significant other NEEDS to have. This happens a lot on dating profiles. She HAS to be feminine yet willing to get dirty, he HAS to be sensitive but capable of doing every household chore . . . It’s good to be firm in what you need in a relationship, but some things are really negotiable. Sure, I’d love someone to meet all my requirements too, but there are only a… Read more »
Now this seems like a much more sensible approach to dating and to life in general. I think I’d prefer reading your list to reading the original article….
These articles always blow up in the comment section. I think it’s a good indicator of how frustrating the dating scene is; specifically for guys. In no way do I think it’s easy for women, but I think we deal with a whole separate set of issues. And I think while the issues women face often get acknowledged, it seems that often the belief for the guys issues is that they are overblown. Last week at Nerve.com they interviewed some guy from Iceland that had lived in the states for a bit. They asked him what the differences were in… Read more »
Good point. Seems like women use the emancipation explanation only if it suits them at that moment.
Here’s the interview with the Icelandic man in question.
http://www.nerve.com/love-sex/talking-to-strangers/talking-to-strangers-reykjavik-iceland-0
Europe sounds better and better by the day!
Yes, Iceland also gets mentioned by this photographer, who has written several pieces on understanding women.
http://blog.kareldonk.com/understanding-women-part-iv/
The interviews of those Icelandic women were very interesting. One of them even wanted to import American dating culture, because she actually wanted to have men ask her out, rather than having to make the moves. I think that video revealed two things. 1) Everyone seems to think that the grass is greener on the other side. Most Americans would agree that dating sucks here, and would love a place like Iceland (at least American men), but an Icelandic women would rather have the American system. Maybe because she knows that women have it much easier within the American courtship… Read more »
I think it has little to do with culture.
If you are a great looking guy, women will value you for who you are and the dating norms will cease to have any effect. Really good looking men are pursued all the time by women. Ask any good looking male friend of yours and he will have tales to tell. No dating norms or cultural expectations stop women from pursuing good looking, desirable men in any part of the world.
I must disagree, Keith.
I myself, as described by others (lest I be accused of arrogance) am a good looking guy. I know other guys who are good looking and work out frequently. And yet we’re not exactly accustomed to being pursued by women.
Even good looking guys need to know game and overcome the many tests women create for us.
Having a very hard time understanding the strong reactions to this article. It’s perfectly sage advice whether you want to date Amie or someone else. Why shouldn’t you go into a new relationship doing your best to be authentic and keep your preconceived notions in check? I think dating advice pushes buttons for a lot of folks. Regardless of what the author is saying, it’s very easy for us to bring our own dating ups and downs to the discussion and miss the point. I’ve encountered very angry audience members who were enraged about something completely off the topic I… Read more »
I don’t doubt that she’s trying to be helpful, but I don’t think she succeeded very well. There’s all sorts of good dating advice completely interwoven with her own fantasies and personal desires. Which obfuscates her message. Take point number 5 for example. Amie starts with a great assertion. “Please don’t treat me like an object. I promise I won’t treat you like one either.” Very solid. Good rule to live by. But then she undermines it by saying, and I’m paraphrasing, “I’m hot. Duh, I get it, people tell me that all the time. Instead of being boring, like… Read more »
Steven I agree with Tim. I doubt the most desirable of men will have that tone when talking about how they want to be courted by a woman. Maybe we’re just arguing about semantics here. She says “How to SUCCEED at dating ME” It implies she is in a bargaining position, has the upper hand, like she is already very desirable, has more than enough options and is the prize to be won. Most women feel that way in dating. Maybe men need to date women who find them desirable. Maybe men need to learn a thing or two from… Read more »
She says “How to SUCCEED at dating ME” It implies she is in a bargaining position, has the upper hand, like she is already very desirable, has more than enough options and is the prize to be won. Most women feel that way in dating.
It’s sad, really.
Don’t know what the solution is though.
The solution would be to put their feet on the groud again by showing them they’re not all that. As long as you do it in a playful, moderately cocky way, they’ll accept it without being offenced.
Well, If you are a young, attractive woman, with a lot of options, you can afford to be picky. I don’t think this will ever change.
For every young attractive woman, there ought to be a young attractive man who is equally desirable with a lot of options of his own. Why cant they date on equal terms where no one can afford to be too demanding and no one feels like they have to put in too much effort?
I don’t know. Why is it that, if a man has to choose between 2 women who have very similar personal qualities except that one is 20% more attractive, he’ll take the more attractive one every time? what I’m saying is, if men didn’t give attractive women so much power, things would be different. But men are probably biologically programmed to prefer more attractive women. As long as men cater to those women, nothing will change.
I always pick the more attractive woman. The more attractive woman for me. I have a scale of one to one hundred I judge women on. The maximum amount of points a woman can get for physical beauty on this scale is ten. So once physical attractiveness is established she can earn a total of ninety more points. Sound sexist? How different is it from having a list? I’m just mathematically inclined so I have fun coming up with a number. And I’m sorry that men are so visually centered. It can be quite a pain in the backside for… Read more »
That’s an interesting question, Sarah.
Maybe men actually should make a conscious effort to choose the somewhat less attractive woman in the scenario you described.
As long as men continue to put attractive women on a pedestal and shower them with attention, it will only feed their entitlement mentality.
Perhaps men should get together and perform a collective “neg” on attractive women, where they ignore them and don’t shower them with the kind of positive attention to which they’ve grown accustomed.
“I think dating advice pushes buttons for a lot of folks…..”
Most of the dating advice ever given to me was pretty much useless. Too often, the people giving me advice wanted to tell me about the Big Lesson that they learned in their life, rather than address the actual problems that I had. It’s frustrating to have people give you advice that really doesn’t address one’s own particular problems.
Sean & Steve Men like you take the status quo for granted and label anyone, who dares to question and point out the fallacies & biases in the mainstream dating advice given to men, a whiner. Ask a sample of young men “how can women succeed at dating them” or “how they want to be courted by women”, and they would be at a loss for words. Most men dont expect anything other than common courtesy, an easy going nature and friendliness from women during dating. Ask the same question from young women and you will get the kind of… Read more »
I kind of disagree with you. If you are a woman who is less conventionally attractive, or older, etc., you have to work very hard to try to convince men you are worth getting to know better. Dating for many women is not easy or natural at all. Over the years I’ve dated men who have very clear checklists and gave me to understand that I had to prove that I met all their criteria.
I don’t so much mind if a man has a check list as long as it’s presented up front. i’m more than happy and willing to note where I don’t meet their needs on that checklist. Is it not better for us both to look at the reality that we might not be meant for each other? I’d rather know up front if I don’t meet a man’s expectations on a date than months down the road trying to make something broken work.
I think there are some good points, but dating doesn’t need to be so complicated. You know what the biggest mistake anyone can make before/during/after a date? Over-analyzing. Examining every detail of the experience to look for clues as to what the other person is thinking or feeling about you. To put it simply, you’re trying too hard. Stop looking for subtle hints, stop comparing your dates to unrealistic standards set by most of our media outlets. Understand that the first date is no different than a first interview for a job. You’re both putting the best possible versions of… Read more »