How to Deal with a Psycho Bitch from Hell

If you can’t listen to women with a higher consciousness, what you offer society as a whole is also limited, says Atalwin Pilon.

Cali, Valle del Cauca, Colombia.

A little while ago I wrote a post about the Psycho Bitch From Hell phenomenon. It was re-posted, with my permission, on The Good Men Project under a slightly different name and it stirred up a lot of conversation. Where I called my post About Psycho Bitches from Hell they changed it into In Defense of Psycho Bitches From Hell. I agree the second title is catchier, but it caused confusion, too.

For a moment it felt exciting. My post was causing a storm of comments! The notifications were flooding my iPhone. This had never happened on my own website. I rushed back to my Colombian apartment to get my laptop, make myself comfortable and enjoy the wisdom that would surely come. But after reading a few comments I felt disappointed. To me it seemed that everybody was missing the point I was trying to make and quite a few got all worked up about things that I never said. I lost interest quickly, felt no incentive to participate in the discussion.

The phenomenon that I called the Psycho Bitch From Hell is in no way something that is clearly defined. Generally it is about a hot cool chick who turns out to have an unexpected dark side. She comes up in conversations of guys when they are exchanging dating experiences, she lives in anecdotes, she meets contempt and ridiculisation because of her perceived craziness. When a guy makes his buddies laugh because he has a psycho-bitch story, it doesn’t mean that he is telling the truth or that he is including her perspective. Perhaps she really overreacted and perhaps he was a completely insensitive jerk and unaware of the hurtful things that came out of his mouth before she started crying ‘for no reason’.

I spent the whole year of 2012 traveling and giving workshops on warriorship, leadership, courage, integrity, mindfulness and personal growth. I lived (for 1 or 2 months) and worked in Israel, Beirut (Lebanon), Baghdad (Iraq), India, Hong Kong, Thailand, Australia, the US and, currently, in Colombia. Among many things I noticed on my journey was that in guy-talk all over the planet the psycho bitch from hell pops up, that I am treated differently because I am a tall, muscular, blue eyed and—most importantly—white man (all highly valued traits in male dominant cultures) and that women are treated poorly and unjust in most cultures that I have seen. I realized that I am blessed to be born on the Western European side of the world. I also realized that my female friends have easier lives then their Indian, Arab or Chinese counterparts, even if they are going through horrible divorces or devastating diseases (which has happened and is happening). The reason is—I think—that in the western world we at least have agreed on the fact that a woman is a human being and that she therefore has equal human rights.

In my post I stated that I felt that it is hard being a woman, perhaps even harder than being a man. This statement caused all kinds of turmoil, many male commenters felt the need to illustrate how hard and unfair it was to be a guy in this day and age. I agree that an American man who has to pay a suffocating amount of alimony to his ex-wife and can’t see his kids suffers terribly from feelings of injustice but somehow it seems preferable over being beaten, locked up, denied education and raped. But if I am 100% right is not really the point. My statement was based on my observations and experiences; trying to devalue my perspective by arguing how difficult the situation for American men is, is missing an opportunity to broaden your perspective. To understand the other you must not fall for the reflex to start defending your own point of view but try to identify with the point of view of the other. Developing the flexibility to let go of your own perspective and adopt a new perspective will make you grow.

Let me once again try to share my perspective with you.

My previous post was an attempt to explain seemingly irrational female behavior by trying to show how people get caught in a personality structure and how we try to find freedom within our constrictions. I described how being a ‘hot, sexy wild chick’ is just another role, just another cage. But because this particular package of characteristics is sexually attractive and immature men get burnt, the Psycho Bitch From Hell stereotype has a bit of a urban myth like status that I wanted to balance more. This time I will share my insights on ‘how to neutralize craziness’ if you wish to call it like that or—my preference—how to be a mature man in a difficult situation.

If you want to deal with a ‘psycho bitch from hell’ you have to learn to listen. You have to understand what listening is. Listening is much more than hearing something, processing it and then reacting in a way that suits your beliefs and opinions about the world and yourself. That is what we think listening is. It is more than that. Listening is developing your awareness.

In his book ‘The Power of Now’ Eckhart Tolle speak of different levels of consciousness. I think he calls it ‘unconscious’ (the normal, every-day human state), ‘deeply unconscious’ (rage, pain, suffering, deep ignorance, etc) and ‘awake’. Bitch-like behavior is just a form of deeply unconscious behavior. Like all deeply unconscious behavior it tends to provoke deeply unconscious behavior in others who are exposed to it. The art is to stay present amidst of turmoil. ‘Presence’ is something one can only develop by training.

During my mindfulness courses I read a poem to my participants at the end of every session. One of them is about this story: a ferryman is crossing the river with his boat. He sees another boat coming his way and shouts. The boat doesn’t change its direction and the ferryman shouts louder and louder at the other skipper. As the boats are about to collide the ferryman is cursing furiously. Then he sees that the other boat is empty.

The ferryman could have just changed his course at the moment he became aware of the other boat. All the anger, fear, frustration and pride were his own obstacles. If the ferryman had less inner obstacles it would be easier for him to maneuver his boat across the river.

Listening is not feeling sorry for yourself. When you learn to listen you will learn that the sad story you are telling yourself is just a sad story that you keep feeding. When you learn to listen you can transcend your own sad and disempowering story; you don’t have to take yourself so fucking seriously anymore. It is essential to transcend your own story because your story is like a lens: everything that you experience is colored and therefore contaminated by your past experiences. You will never really hear what the other is saying when you are filtering her words and actions through your personal lens. Once you have transcended your story you will make yourself available to others. If you are a heterosexual male this will naturally include the women you date.

Listening is not repeating what the voice in your head tells you to say. Listening is hearing all the voices and sensations until it gets quiet and you can hear what is underneath. When you become a good listener there is no separation between what you hear inside and outside. When you truly listen to a deeply unconscious person you will not feel a bitch or a jerk but only a deeply wounded, caged and desperate person.

Learning to listen will teach you compassion, not just for others but also for yourself. You will become kinder, more empathetic and you are not amazed when somebody starts shouting like the ferryman. You are honest enough to admit that you were the same not that long ago. You will learn to behave naturally instead of self consciously.

When you have learned to listen deeply you will be able to hold the space for others, including psycho bitches from hell. By not fighting her anger, woundedness or confusion you will help her ground. Also you will not feel the need anymore to box and label people the way you used to do before. But you can empathize with those who still do.

The difference between an immature and a mature man is presence. With presence comes selflessness, wisdom and compassion. When you understand your masculinity you want to serve the feminine where the immature man wants to suppress the feminine. A mature man wants to serve the feminine because it makes him complete and because he can. Some samurai master put it like this: when faced with a woman or child in a situation in which they are vulnerable, there are two types of men: those who would offer succor or aid, and those who prey upon them.

Woman is life and man is the servant of life. The male’s job is to protect the women.

—Joseph Campbell

The world desperately needs mature men. Our psycho bitches are good shit tests. If you don’t have enough presence to help her through her turmoil your contribution to mankind will be limited too. You need more practice. But if you can be with her in the midst of suffering and help her find the way back to clarity you will be able to touch many hearts in your life time. And you still practice because you want to practice.

This post, and others in the Psycho Bitch from Hell series, has inspired Atalwin to create 2 Workshops in New York City around the themes of these articles. MORE INFORMATION HERE.

 

This was previously published at Basic Goodness.

Read more on Sex & Relationships.

About Atalwin Pilon

Atalwin Pilon is a former bad boy from Amsterdam who had an experience of spiritual awakening at 32. Since that moment he committed to the truth and lives from his heart. Currently he is traveling the world on a quest for meaning, aiming to make a difference. Follow him on his blog Basic Goodness, Facebook and Twitter. You can try him out as your life coach too, if his voice speaks to you. Email him. He will be honored.

Comments

  1. elementary_watson says:

    So, your basic point seems to imply that the right way to interact with women who lash out against their partners contains for the partner to abnegate his own needs and feelings of hurt, and put hers front and center?

    Can’t see this going down all too well in the comments, to be honest …

  2. Richard Aubrey says:

    Can a woman just be a butthead, or is it always the fault of the patriarchy?

  3. My basic point is that when you can stay present, hold the space and don’t take the lashing personal there is not much of a problem. But it takes practice to manifest that kind of presence.

    • Then why not make it gender neutral?

      • I would say because he’s not writing about “How to deal with a whining, spineless Jellyfish of a Man” or about “How to deal with a Macho Man that lashes out in anger all the time”. Could be in next posts though. This post is on how to listen and could be applied to anyone at anytime, and men can use some pointers in this area, seeing as we are on the goodmenproject website.

        • I’m sorry, but how can “the woman is life and the man is the servant of life. The job of the male is to protect the female” be applied to anyone at anytime?

          I lost a lot of respect for Joseph Campbell when I read that.

          • Mark Good says:

            I think there are philosophies, wisdom, comments, sentiment, or whatever that when first uttered and thought about are suited for the times. Times have changed. I’m sure if he were alive today his sentiment may read a little differently.

    • What you’re asking is for men to inure themselves to the abuse they’re experiencing. It’s warped to claim that a proper way to deal with a real problem is to depersonalize it to the point where it no longer feels like a problem. That doesn’t suggest presence, but the exact opposite.

      Men need to centralize they’re own values and principles more, not less.

  4. Ugh, not sure what I object to more; the dismissal of said women as being responsible for their own actions, r the odious gender essentialism.

    No, it’s the gender essentialism.

    • Yes… it’s a shame because I think he’s on the right track. But if I’m acting unreasonably, I don’t want my partner to try and ‘deal’ with me, I want him to call me on it… Also you don’t have to let go of your own perspective and adopt another one in order to grow. I think it was Aristotle that said true wisdom is being able to entertain an idea without accepting it. Which is possibly what he meant but the wording could suggest otherwise…

      • Presence offers the possibility of mindful action: to respond adequately. Firm action is a good tool and sometimes appropriate. I am not saying that men (or women) should be spineless jellyfish. Actually, the problem I am hearing on this site are the attachments to be being a victim. Own your anger. Clear the space.

      • What you don’t seem to understand, Sarah, is that when you’re being unreasonable *you think you’re being completely reasonable*. So when someone “calls you out on it”, you don’t suddenly snap out of it and say “Why yes, you’re right, I’m being unreasonable”… because, here’s the thing: If you had the good sense to realize and understand that you were being unreasonable.. you wouldn’t have been unreasonable in the first place.

        The response to “calling out” someone for being unreasonable is usually more anger or accusations of gaslighting.

        • Here’s the thing, Drew, what you don’t seem to understand is you don’t know anything about me 😉

          Everyone is unreasonable at one point or another, but that’s not the point of what I said. I meant that I would rather be called out than ‘dealt with’ because I’d rather take responsibility for my actions.

    • It’s not about not making the other person responsible for their actions. There’s not much you can do, actually, to force someone else to “take responsibility,” since that’s an internal change. But you can choose how you’re going to respond when someone acts like a psycho bitch from hell right in front of you. That’s something you actually can do.

      Of course, there will always be readers whose response to these articles is to bring focus back to themselves as victims, instead of figuring out how they’re adults with choices.

      • But that’s just it – we are victims. Women are the victims of men who dominate them and abuse them. Men are the victims in a world where they are thought to be abusive and domineering, while denying them the companionship of strong, present women. Both genders have become victims and both genders have become abusers. I don’t think that, at this point, we can simply skip over the victimhood, the trauma, the pain and the incredible unconsciousness in male-female relationship, and go straight to presence and listening from the heart.

        There is too much shit in the way that, I believe, needs to be acknowledged at least. Otherwise this shit will constantly be prompting us to defensive reactions, and there will be no openness, no space and no listening.

      • elementary_watson says:

        It’s not about not making the other person responsible for their actions. There’s not much you can do, actually, to force someone else to “take responsibility,” since that’s an internal change. But you can choose how you’re going to respond when someone acts like a psycho bitch from hell right in front of you. That’s something you actually can do.

        Of course, there will always be readers whose response to these articles is to bring focus back to themselves as victims, instead of figuring out how they’re adults with choices.

        It’s not about “making the woman take responsibility for her behaviour”, which is impossible; it’s more about actually holding the woman in question responsible for her actions as she is a person(!) with an individual agency(!) and not something like a blind force of nature the man has to deal with (to prove himself as a man). To judge men’s maturity and value for the community based on how they act in a bad situation while letting the person responsible for that situation off the hook looks like a severe lack of empathy for men as flawed, imperfect individuals.

        What I take from the article is that “respond to attacks from your female partner with understanding” is the only “right” way to behave in such a situation. On one hand, understanding is always great, and being able to behave like this is admirable. On the other hand, however, a man has not “failed if his response to attacks eventually is “I’ve had enough, I’m out of here” or angrily telling his partner how unacceptable her behaviour is.

        • wellokaythen says:

          “What I take from the article is that “respond to attacks from your female partner with understanding” is the only “right” way to behave in such a situation. On one hand, understanding is always great, and being able to behave like this is admirable. On the other hand, however, a man has not “failed if his response to attacks eventually is “I’ve had enough, I’m out of here” or angrily telling his partner how unacceptable her behaviour is.”

          Yes indeed. You’ve said it better than I did below.

          I would also add that one could listen with an open heart and open mind and come from a place of curiosity and STILL not understand another’s behavior. Failing to understand may not be a failure of the listener. It may just be that understanding is not possible, or not possible at that moment. (Dare I say it, her behavior may be completely baffling to anyone who is sane and sensible.) An even deeper awareness might suggest that you have to let go of your desire to understand.

          And, a man could understand, sympathize, truly accept where she is coming from, see his role in the larger relationship dynamic, and still be wise to break contact with her. Accepting her for who she is does not require you to stay in that relationship.

  5. “trying to devalue my perspective by arguing how difficult the situation for American men is, is missing an opportunity to broaden your perspective. To understand the other you must not fall for the reflex to start defending your own point of view but try to identify with the point of view of the other. ”

    And herein lies my problem: your position, while taking into account the difficulties that women deal with and calling for presence and compassion on the part of men, seems to ignore the difficulties that men deal with. Those comments in which men express their difficult situation are not them missing the point – those are men bringing up another, very valid and very relevant part of the point.

    Being heard usually helps greatly in listening in turn, doesn’t it? Maybe if you listen to what the men have to say, they will begin to listen to you.

    • No Pausha, I am not ignoring the difficulties of men. Actually, I am addressing a often heard complaint and trying to offer some perspective on that specific difficulty: how to deal with those irrational, incomprehensible and unpredictable women? If guys had that difficulty out of their way it would make life a lot easier. And my point is that presence can be developed and that once they have mastered that art, that art will offer great benefits to the self and the world.

      • Ah, but you see by “men’s difficulties” I mean those which cause men to dominate women, rape women, lock women up, beat them, treat them as sexual objects, little girls, nice loving housewives etc. I meant the difficulties that have men treat women in all the terrible ways you observed during your travels. I’d imagine that if men took care of those difficulties, the population of bitches from hell would be reduced dramatically.

        • “I’d imagine that if men took care of those difficulties, the population of bitches from hell would be reduced dramatically.”
          Thing is if you reduced the population of bitches from hell you would also remove many of those difficulties, there are a lot of people who have been abused and go on to abuse (not all victims, and probably not the majority of victims, but a significant amount). Some of the men abusing women were abused by women, and those women who abused the men some of them were also abused by women or men. Basically it’s a big cycle of abuse that continues on, but sadly up to half of the abuse often gets ignored and dismissed because it’s perpetrated by women so we don’t really do much to stop the cycle.

          People need to ask why the abuser is abusive, and just as these bitches from hell have been through hard times, their abusers also have been through hard times. Stop the initial abuse and you’ll drastically reduce the chance of further abuse I believe.

  6. All I could say is that words have consequences. The term “psycho bitch” denotes an air of sadism and irrationality that unfortunately gave people the impression that you were some sort of masochist. You might have been better served by using “damaged” to describe a persons vulnerability. Other then that, Joseph Campbell is shockingly out of date in these modern times.

  7. If we stop and truly hear what another person needs us to hear, it alleviates the mania. Taking a pause to listen may just be enough to alter the “bitch” behavior. Men and women both exhibit this behavior but coming from a male writer who is explaining his personal experiences interacting from other men, of course he’s not going to speak to males being asses; men don’t speak of their own irrational.behavior to prefer men any more than women speak of being a bitch to their female friends.

    It’s easier in life to step back and attempt to understand another person before attacking or becoming defensive. The comments here are prime example of how negative behavior snowballs.
    It is time to take a moment to look within, what is making you so uncomfortable about this article? Why is it resonating? Are you relating because you see yourself in the partner who doesn’t hear or as the person who is driven to be out of control because you have no voice?
    Your behavior and reactions to others behavior is fully within your control. Remove permission from those in your life to be a bitch to you, commit to listen.

  8. Richard Aubrey says:

    One reason men start talking about how tough they have it is habit. They are used to being told women have it worse than men, which means it’s the men’s fault. And, next, men are expected to apologize unceasingly for A, and B, and C, while being expected to give up X, and Y, and Z.
    Now, if a conversation isn’t going that way, the men’s reaction might be off topic, but in most men’s experience, the conversation is going to the ABC and XYZ thing, so often that telling of their own problems is automatic.
    Because, if they have it just as bad, it’s…the fault of the patriarchy which hurts everybody, which is made up of men. So…what’s the point?

  9. Man and woman differences in perspective, acting and feeeling are basicly biological differences. On top of that quite some cultural and educational differences exist. As long as we are not aware of the reason and the existance of those differences men and women will have problems with each other. They will persist in a behaviour that the other has to comply with their perspectives.

    I see Atalwins article as a shout for attention: be awere of those differences and take them for granted! Start listening in full presence and a different world will emerge.

    There is nothing wrong with the male (aggressive) behaviour. It is required for survival. However, a lot of men don’t know when the appropiate time and place is for that aggression. And maybe women don’t know either. I don’t want to go into an argument of the historical reason why the current men-women issues became what they are now.

    All I want to say is that opening to the others perspective, like Atalwin suggests, will change your live. And since the topic was about the male perspective, I’ll end by saying that male aggression applied with respect and love, at the right time and place, will enrich the lives of both women and men.

    • Thanks Cor, a very rational statement. I like to look at things from both perspectives, and find common ground. Presence is the only medicine. First we resolve the injustice (take the splinter out of the wound), then we apply the balm (presence). There is often a feeling that there is too deep a divide, but this need not be so. And I do believe there are essential differences between men and women, though there are things we have in common, in particular the need to be heard, and the ability to listen. Anyone can develop this if they care enough.

  10. Assuming the term “psycho bitch” is not being applied merely because the man is uncomfortable with a strong woman the best way to “deal” is walk away. Old farm quote: “Wrestling with a pig will just get you dirty, and the pig enjoys it.”

  11. …Yeah and one of those choices for men should be to stay away from women who expect for men to put up with such controling, immaturity.

    • BINGO

      I’ve never been one to allow those people into my life, and i distance myself from the people who try to “help” (enable) them.
      For some reason people think i want to hear about their partners/friends latest “episode”,when i’m thinking “you ain’t dragging me down with you” lol.

      It never fails that these types of articles are always geared towards men to “help” them with woman. As if we need more woman believing that their negative behavior is justified and people just need to “deal with it”.

  12. Hank Vandenburgh says:

    He’s right. A steady presence calms most people, unless they’re psychotic. I do have to say that I sort of support “gender essentialism,” however, allowing for vast overlap.

  13. I loved your post! It is refreshing and upbeat.

  14. “When you understand your masculinity you want to serve the feminine where the immature man wants to suppress the feminine. A mature man wants to serve the feminine because it makes him complete and because he can.”

    No. I am not here to serve anyone, nor is anyone here to serve me.

  15. I agree that an American man who has to pay a suffocating amount of alimony to his ex-wife and can’t see his kids suffers terribly from feelings of injustice but somehow it seems preferable over being beaten, locked up, denied education and raped. But if I am 100% right is not really the point.
    I’m sure you were probably going for dramatic effect or something like that but to make such an unbalanced comparison just feels a bit odd.

    To understand the other you must not fall for the reflex to start defending your own point of view but try to identify with the point of view of the other. Developing the flexibility to let go of your own perspective and adopt a new perspective will make you grow.
    Then don’t start off your perspective with an attack. it’s one thing to try to offer a different perspective but it’s quite another to start that perspective off by trying to establish a heirarchy of who has it worse.

    When you truly listen to a deeply unconscious person you will not feel a bitch or a jerk but only a deeply wounded, caged and desperate person.
    If this advice were to be applied both ways it would make things so much better.

    But if you can be with her in the midst of suffering and help her find the way back to clarity you will be able to touch many hearts in your life time. And you still practice because you want to practice.
    And just like a woman dealing with a jerk of a man (or whatever you call the male equivalent of a psycho bitch) sometimes you have to realize that sometimes they cannot be helped or at least helped by the guy in question. To go off and call that guy immature doesn’t sit well.

    And overall I think I see a problem here. it seems that when a woman is dealing with a jerkish guy (whose behavior, if we relate back to the first piece on this, inclused abuse) the “solution” is to support her no matter what she does and not judge her on her decision. But on the other hand if a man is dealing with a psycho bitch (whose behavior includes abuse) all of a sudden he is the one on trial and needs to act a certain way or it reflects on him?

    I’m all for trying to get guys to open up but if this opening up becomes a new bar for what a “real man” is then I don’t see much good coming from it.

    Woman is life and man is the servant of life. The male’s job is to protect the women.
    That’s exactly the type of gender essentialism that has gotten us in trouble in the first place. Holding women up on some pedestal and task men with some sort of “job” that they must perform in order to “earn” their place at a woman’s side.

    I think what’s going on is that just like women that have seen they don’t have to accept their limiting roles, men are realizing the same. In short, “Why should a given man be the one that hears out a given psycho bitch?”

    • “To go off and call that guy immature doesn’t sit well.”
      AMEN. Your comment overall is very much on the money.

  16. How to deal with them? Kick them out, get rid of them as friends, lovers, whatever. I have done this and I am much happier for it. If they cannot respect you then you don’t need to have them as a friend, I have tried to help psychos or even just abusive women before but only they can really help themselves and at the time they didn’t want to so cya later.

    “Woman is life and man is the servant of life. The male’s job is to protect the women.
    —Joseph Campbell”
    Gee I wonder why your articles ruffle feathers. Why would you post this quote? Why do you think people are getting an idea from you that you are suggesting people overlook women’s abusive behaviour and to just help them? Do you also suggest the same for women with abusive men for partners? For this quote, do you believe men should be serving women? Do women also serve men or are you putting women up on a pedestal? I don’t serve women, they don’t deserve to be served above men, nor the reverse. I think of men n women as equals, not men as servants to women.

    “The world desperately needs mature men. Our psycho bitches are good shit tests. If you don’t have enough presence to help her through her turmoil your contribution to mankind will be limited too. You need more practice. But if you can be with her in the midst of suffering and help her find the way back to clarity you will be able to touch many hearts in your life time. And you still practice because you want to practice.”

    I am truly curious if you tell women the same for their men who are psycho assholes from hell? It’s all well n good to try help people but there are some who cannot be helped by you because they are closed off to helping themselves, should the man feel he has failed if he can’t help?

    “To me it seemed that everybody was missing the point I was trying to make and quite a few got all worked up about things that I never said. I lost interest quickly, felt no incentive to participate in the discussion.”

    Well you wrote about some of those women being abusive and seemed to completely ignore or dismiss any comments talking about abusive women. People got worked up OVER THINGS YOU SAID, maybe editors edited your piece wrong? Maybe your style of speaking is much different to others? When you get multiple people taking criticism of your article and very few seeming to understand it as you do, then that should be a sign that you’re style of communication is probably off for the audience you’re speaking to.

    “To understand the other you must not fall for the reflex to start defending your own point of view but try to identify with the point of view of the other. Developing the flexibility to let go of your own perspective and adopt a new perspective will make you grow.”

    Have you tried understanding these men, or do you see those men only in this light “Actually, the problem I am hearing on this site are the attachments to be being a victim. Own your anger. Clear the space.”

    Did you not realize this site has many male victims of abuse? Especially abuse perpetrated by females? Those psycho bitches you say are misunderstood often…well, sometimes they are not misunderstood, sometimes they do act extremely irrationally in an abusive and violent manner and yes some of their victims are here. I see you defending your point of view, infact you wrote a second article about it, did you really open up n listen to those American men? Do you honestly think alimony is the only thing bothering those men as well? Men suffer an incredible amount of abuse in the U.S.A alongside women who also suffer incredible amounts of abuse, it may not be as high as other countries but that doesn’t really matter to them because they still SUFFER. I had cancer last year, my quality of life suffered, I was scared as hell, I lost half a year or more of my life simply to recovering and it’s taken a long time to get back to how I was. Some people die from cancer, does that change the fact I still suffered? They suffer worse, but my suffering is still important. Of course there are people out there with worse lives, and I am thankful for my life not being so bad, but my life is also pretty bad with the bullshit I have to deal with and no amount of looking at others having it worse will change that. The men paying alimony can be victims of abuse, and have unfair court decisions where they never or rarely get to see their children but they are crippled with high costs and even the threat of jail if they don’t pay. Not to mention there are some who’ve had those psycho bitches from hell give false accusations of child abuse, etc in order to harm their ex and deny them access to the kids along with all the stigma n reputation damage.

    Being beaten n raped is bad, but so is losing your kids and never seeing them. How do you compare them? Bruises mend, even some rape victims mend over time, some handle it better than others, a crushing court case which denies access to your kids has been a major catalyst in quite a few men’s suicides just as rape n abuse has been. What matters is how it affects the person involved. I’ve been in fights, been bruised up, but they didn’t affect me as much as mere words did in school bullying. Others may be highly resistant to emotional abuse yet a few punches could trigger a major social anxiety for them, leaving them feeling scared. My own social anxiety made me fear words n emotional abuse more than physical abuse.

    This view of the grass is greener therefore your suffering is less is a pile of bullshit simply because everyone is affected differently. There are others that went through what I did but didn’t get extreme social anxiety disorder + suicidal depression. Keep that in mind next time you think of American men’s troubles. (I am Australia, not American though I have seen plenty of pain on this site alone from injustice in the US, Australia isn’t all that much different)

  17. Okay so this>>>

    ‘When you understand your masculinity you want to serve the feminine where the immature man wants to suppress the feminine.’

    Can be interpreted very rashly and I think in-congruently to Atwalin’s point.
    To every male commenter here, he is NOT telling you to ‘serve’ women or put up with shitty or abusive treatment from them.
    Speaking as someone who has been a ‘psycho bitch’ on many occasions I can safely say in my case it is a defense mechanism, a final frontier of dignity and power when any real semblance of these two concepts have been washed away (when it comes to men.) If this wasn’t a thing amongst women, this article would be called something like ‘How to Deal with a Basket Case’. Because I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that every psycho bitch is only inches away from bursting into tears.
    The fact that all of you ‘men’ are taking this statement so immaturely ‘ urgh I’m not gonna serve women!..amma not a slave duh!’ and seeing it on such a surface level? well it just proves this guy’s point. Men and women are different, biologically and otherwise- they need different kinds of support from each other. This is not sexist it is true. But hey you want to go there? Turn the clock back 50years and women had been slaves to men the entire history of MANkind. Yeh I went there. But this is not what this statement meant at all. I mean bloody hell! Get over yourselves. (Here’s looking at you @Drew)
    I know that I ever met a guy who treated me with respect and consideration there wouldn’t be any psycho bitch, because there would be no danger, no threat, no honour or dignity stolen to retrieve.

    • Thing is being a “pyscho bitch” is a thing amongst men, but men aren’t afforded the luxury of being raving assholes and having their actiions justified.

      When it comes to woman’s actions there’s hardly any responsibility put on them, a woman does something bad and everyone’s searching for the man who either cause it or failed to stop it.

      You being a psycho bitch was a defense mechanism…so ?
      I’ll take a que from what someone else said, take responsibility for how you react to people.
      You framing yourself and woman as being the victim is getting tiresome, especially with the monopoly your running.

    • “I know that I ever met a guy who treated me with respect and consideration there wouldn’t be any psycho bitch, because there would be no danger, no threat, no honour or dignity stolen to retrieve.”
      But it’s up to you to take responsibility for your actions and stop being a ‘psycho bitch’.

      “Men and women are different, biologically and otherwise- they need different kinds of support from each other. This is not sexist it is true.”
      You mean like women should stay in the kitchen n raise my kids and I’ll give her some money and defend her from the monsters of the world? (No I don’t think this is good). Gender essentialist statements are often sexist because you know…not all women are like that, nor all men? Do tell me how the support differs?

      “The fact that all of you ‘men’ are taking this statement so immaturely ‘ urgh I’m not gonna serve women!..amma not a slave duh!’ and seeing it on such a surface level? well it just proves this guy’s point.”
      The fact you’re overlooking the sexism of it proves many of the commenters right…

    • elementary_watson says:

      Please, explain the deeper levels beneath the surface level to us immature “men”, as you chose to scare quote us, since you only emphasize what the statement doesn’t mean, never what it means.

      Do you understand that in this comment, you are displaying exactly the mindset Atalwin claims his detractors to have? One could claim that a woman who reads Atalwin’s piece would get the message of “yeah, my partner should find better, more mature ways to deal with my negative behaviour and stop seeing himself as a victim”, a message which absolves her of all responsibility for the situation; your comment does little to refute that claim.

    • Stacey, sweetie.. being verbally attacked by you is like being punched by a third grader. Although I’m, of course, kind of annoyed, I’m mostly amused and don’t feel it would be fair to fight back.

    • Turn the clock back 50years and women had been slaves to men the entire history of MANkind. Yeh I went there. But this is not what this statement meant at all. I mean bloody hell! Get over yourselves.

      I’m sorry, but what anthropological, biological, or historical evidence do you have to support that statement? If you peel away the generalized history we are all taught in school and ask specialists in those fields the evidence proves that “women were slaves of men” assertion as a gross over-generalization at best and an outright lie at worst.

      – Most hunter-gatherer societies saw women and men as relative equals with the exception of societies where men were solely responsible for obtaining food.

      – The idea that women were considered cattle all throughout “all of history” is completely incorrect. During the middle ages women and men worked alongside each other in the field and because nothing creates equality like two people doing back-breaking labor together. Women often ran businesses and could inherit their father’s property – if you were a commoner -and that’s the key; when people talk about the “women were cattle” claim they are usually referring to the aristocracy and even that has a ton of nuances to it.

      Sorry, your history is wrong.

  18. Stacey: “Speaking as someone who has been a ‘psycho bitch’ on many occasions I can safely say in my case it is a defense mechanism, a final frontier of dignity and power when any real semblance of these two concepts have been washed away (when it comes to men.)”

    In other words, you don’t take responsibility for your actions. Instead, it’s a “Defense Mechanism” against power that has been denied.

    Have you forgotten that you have agency and choice? You choose to be the “Psycho Bitch” as you label yourself, nobody forces you. That person on the receiving end of your abuse hasn’t taken power away from you.

    I dread to think if you ever have children and you unleash this “Psycho Bitch” side on them. You going to blame that on lack of power or some other outside force?

    Sorry to be blunt, but this sort of excuse adds to the invisibility of men and boys who have been abused by the women in their life.

    Stacey: ” Because I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that every psycho bitch is only inches away from bursting into tears.”

    Tears do NOTHING to assuage the pain a woman such as yourself would cause to a person who didn’t deserve it. Much less if children were involved.

    Stacey: “The fact that all of you ‘men’ are taking this statement so immaturely ‘ urgh I’m not gonna serve women!..amma not a slave duh!’ and seeing it on such a surface level? well it just proves this guy’s point.”

    No it doesn’t. It only means these men have had actual experience with women like that and are sick and tired of being told, CONSTANTLY, in society that they should ‘Man Up” and take whatever abuse that comes towards them. Listen, be sympathetic, as these women lash out within an inch of their life.

    I’m tired of it myself.

    Stacey: ” Men and women are different, biologically and otherwise- they need different kinds of support from each other. This is not sexist it is true.”

    Would you pull this connard if it were the other way around? Funny how biology is always mentioned when it comes to men’s struggles. But when it comes to women? Patriarchy and society is at fault.

    Stacey: ” But hey you want to go there? Turn the clock back 50years and women had been slaves to men the entire history of MANkind.”

    Case in point. It’s all men’s fault for what women go through. Any struggles men go through, hey it’s biology. The sexes are different ergo support should be dealt accordingly.

    If this isn’t an example of sexist absolutism, I don’t know what is.

    Stacey: ” I mean bloody hell! Get over yourselves. (Here’s looking at you @Drew)”

    Translation: Man up and shut up.

    Stacey: “I know that I ever met a guy who treated me with respect and consideration there wouldn’t be any psycho bitch, because there would be no danger, no threat, no honour or dignity stolen to retrieve.”

    As someone who has been through some pretty bad trauma with women and girls, I will warn you that you’re contributing to the climate that refuses to listen to my experiences with this reprehensible excuse.

  19. My reaction to women who choose to abuse is the same as it is to men who choose to abuse… I walk away. I know there are underlying causes. I understand that but I value myself and I don’t need to be the person the abuser works their stuff out on anymore. And all abusers need to be accountable and take responsibility for their own actions (male or female). I don’t believe in acting like this abusive behavior is any more forgiveable in women than it is in men.

    I can be all zen with this. I can be present with the abuser. Certainly. But I’m not going to continually revictimize myself for an abusive person.

    I have every excuse in the book to act like the psycho bitch from hell. But I make the choice not to. I make the choice to work on my emotions and learn how to articulate them in better way than screaming and throwing stuff or hitting or threatening to take children away. I choose to not manipulate time or emotions. And I’ve been pushed hard. Buttons pushed and whatever. I will stand there and cry or walk away before I abuse.

    Women need to be held accountable. Not treated like a fragile being that control her abuse.

    • elementary_watson says:

      I guess I should take a break from emotionally engaging with these kind of discussions, as I feel like it makes my mind run in more and more narrow paths. I feel like I should be able to respond to this comment in a more appreciative, honestly admiring way than simply calling for it to become comment of the day.

      But sadly, all I can say is: This should be comment of the day! It appreciates the issues of the abusive person, the limits of the person dealing with that behaviour, and, most refreshingly, doesn’t claim that “presence” and “listening” are the magical cure to solve every problem.

      Your comment deserves far more praise than this.

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      Women need to be held accountable. Not treated like a fragile being that control her abuse.

      Comment of the day right here!

    • Exactly.

    • 4th’d for comment of the day.

  20. I stopped listening at ‘but somehow it seems preferable to being ‘

    For starters, let’s look at the ways in which this statement is simple BS:

    beaten – I know, because men are never victims of violence in this society.

    locked up – so… who, exactly, fills American prisons again?

    denied an education – LMFAO. Yes, because in America, women are denied an education. That happens. You in no way just made that up.

    raped/i> – Again, what happens to those men who you claim don’t exist, the ones sitting in prison for non-violent crimes?

    But beyond that, people who talk that way don’t care about men. They only care about looking for excuses to dismiss the experiences and problems of men. If you actually cared about being heard — rather than what you clear do care about, which is scoring points — you would be willing to speak in such a way that others would be willing to listen to. That you refuse to do that, favoring instead a regurgitation of the same stumbling block again and again until everyone acknowledges that you are ‘right’, proves this issues stems from your concerns for the women involved, not the men (who are, in this instance, the actual victims).

  21. “When you have learned to listen deeply you will be able to hold the space for others…”

    Great sentence…!

    When I was in the hospital recovering from surgery, my doctor knocked quietly and came into the room, careful not to bump into any furniture, and in a hushed voice asked me how I was doing… I was in a lot of pain and I could not raise my arms to re-fasten my hospital gown without wincing…he just fastened the snaps on the left shoulder of my gown for me…that is grace….it was like a blond angel in green scrubs sent from some heavenly place…

    We talked about various pain meds and then he said to make a follow-up appointment…it was a short visit but I felt so much better even though I was so uncomfortable (every movement was pre-meditated because every slight shift caused pain)….I was in pain, he acknowledged it, and I felt better from his quiet, compassionate attention…

    Is that so hard to do if you see someone in pain? Just sayin’….(for the record I did not behave like a “psycho bitch from hell” but I am sure he has encountered plenty but treats them with as much compassion and kindness)….

  22. ‘scare quote’ gee okay…well hostility aside elementary_watson. My point was that none of you are putting this ‘psycho bitch’ behaviour in any kind of relevant context. And out of context of course the bitch is completely to blame. But most guys here are treating it as if it is a removed phenomena completely separate from the relationship ie the guy and the expectations and judgments society moulds us to have, which vary between the sexes. Thank you for assuming my opinion and what I deduced from reading this article, because I’m a woman. Yes one could claim, but then one would have to justify. Of course it’s not completely the guys fault (some of the time), but it is all relevant. I treat this definition of a psycho bitch as a temporary state, a reaction to spurned feelings, love, a particular situation, whatever. Alright guys I grant you, there are a lot of girls out there that are simply ‘psycho bitches’ all of the time, and trust me, we all steer clear of them not just the men. All I’m saying is when her psycho bitch appears just try for once to put yourselves in a woman’s shoes, in a relationship, in this society, with certain expectations, certain DIFFERENT emotional, sexual, generally feminine needs and wants.
    and yes men have it tough too.

    • Mark Good says:

      Are you asking for us to put ourselves in her shoes at the heat of the moment? Because its hard to do when we are experiencing our own reactions to her “temporary state” of psychoness! If we put ourselves in her shoes after all is said and done, how can we approach it with the same passion and or conviction that would allow us to examine what just happened on the same level? The question is given our differences could we realistically even do that? I’m not trying to be a smart ass about this, I would really like to know. Any ideas or suggestions?

      • That’s an excellent question. What I’ve learned from Atalwin and others (such as experts on dissociation) is that it takes practice to be present all of the time, and particularly in moments like this, when you are likely to panic. There are some exercises you can do, depending on your tradition, in meditation and psychology.

      • This was the answer I quickly wrote to Mark personally:

        Hey Mark,

        Your questions are coming into my inbox and I am a bit busy now. Dont want to go to the page now.

        But in short: yes, you can. And yes, it is difficult and gets more difficult if you really love the girl. And you will make mistakes. Sometimes I still fall flat on my face but it happens less and less and I see my ignorance it faster and faster.

        If this is a real thing in your life you are part of a destructive pattern. You want to break the pattern. I did this in 2004 be starting to learn about meditation, zen, the ego, all that stuff. I started because I wanted to learn to be always ‘zen’. I started because I wanted to suppress my anger since I had a girl who would (violently) accuse me and my anger of being the source of all evil. I believed it. I thought that if I would be calm she would not leave me. By learning to meditate I became aware of my thought patterns, fears (of abandonment) and reactions. Step by step I became less and less a slave of them. When my own ego was not blurring the moment I could ‘see’ her. It was not personal anymore. I could also see it was not my fault, my weakness or my anger.

        Presence is disarming. it doesnt work just with girls but also with aggression in life. I am a guy that can stop violence because i am (or can be) threatening if i want. But I very clearly remember the firs time that my presence was de-escalating instead of intimidating. A guy was looking for trouble and instead of kicking him out (normal response) I asked him what was going on, if he was ok. He looked first confused, then broke out smiling and the next moment we are hugging. Guess he just had a shitty night and wanted to fight but a bit of genuine interest was an even better medicine.

        Thank you for your question! I hope this gives you an idea. I realize my answer is not complete. If you have more questions you are welcome.

        Take care,

        Atalwin

        • FlyingKal says:

          I started because I wanted to suppress my anger since I had a girl who would (violently) accuse me and my anger of being the source of all evil.

          Thank you for this, Atalwin.
          But what if you in fact aren’t angry?
          What if you actually make a point of being calm and “present”, and this only fuels the anger of your “opponent” even more?

          Presence is disarming. it doesnt work just with girls but also with aggression in life. I am a guy that can stop violence because i am (or can be) threatening if i want.

          I’m a smallish and very un-threatening guy, and I can tell you that it doesn’t always work with girls either.

          Sincerely the best.

        • @ Atalwin so basically you’re flipping the script and saying that victims of abuse are responsible for the abusers actions ? If the guy had attacked you he would and should be 100% responsible for what he’d done to you. Believe the evil in the world is cause by your thoughts is a ridiculous idea and quite suspicious since it came from someone that was abusive to you.

          • John Smith says:

            This seems to be about blaiming the abused for the action of the abuser. This whole artical is a combination of psudopsycobable and justification of female on male domstic abuse, and a load of sexist clap trap about how women can’t control there emotions and how men are strong and should change to fit the mould SOME women want.

            Discussting.

  23. @ Kat
    “I have every excuse in the book to act like the psycho bitch from hell. But I make the choice not to. I make the choice to work on my emotions and learn how to articulate them in better way”

    That’s it
    I could get angry, but why mess up the rest of my day ?, why make every interaction soon afterward really about someone else ?
    Makes me remember something my mother once said “don’t bring that attitude in here, take that back where it came from”.

    @ Stacey
    Even in a temparory state a person’s still responsible for how they reaction to what people do around them.
    It’d be foolish of me to put myself in anyone’s shoes who lets temporary things in life sway their emotions.
    No one gets excuses for letting their emotion run wild, especially against people who weren’t involved in the situation to begin with.

  24. You’re very ready to condemn a man for not putting up with a “psycho bitch: as “immature” (under the guise of “understanding” and “listening” to the poor harmed soul). I’d like to hear about the immaturity of women who act in such a manner. Why is this type of behavior excusable when it comes from a woman?

    The mature man is the one who walks away from a woman who acts like a “psycho bitch”. The immature one is the man who hasn’t grown (most likely because of how society has told him to “respect” women at all times) to understand that he doesn’t have to sit back and allow himself to be a doormat, a punching bag, and be degraded by a woman who supposedly loves him.

    Also, this is the most insulting part of the article:
    “Among many things I noticed on my journey was that in guy-talk all over the planet the psycho bitch from hell pops up, that I am treated differently because I am a tall, muscular, blue eyed and—most importantly—white man (all highly valued traits in male dominant cultures) and that women are treated poorly and unjust in most cultures that I have seen. I realized that I am blessed to be born on the Western European side of the world. I also realized that my female friends have easier lives then their Indian, Arab or Chinese counterparts, even if they are going through horrible divorces or devastating diseases (which has happened and is happening). ”

    While we can all agree that in a lot of places women are treated very harshly I still find it insulting for a white man from the “Western European side of the world” to let all these poor backward brown people from the other side of the world know how poorly women are treated in their cultures (/sarcasm). Someone from another culture might think that the way you allow women to act in your culture (which judging from your last two articles seems to be allowing adult women to act in a disrespectful and immature manner whenever and wherever) is treating women poorly and unjust. Please remember that just because people in other cultures might have more physically demanding lives doesn’t mean they are unhappier than “Western” people who don’t or that “Western” culture is some kind of supreme way of living.

    • The mature man is the one who walks away from a woman who acts like a “psycho bitch”.

      Entirely correct. Abusive people don’t deserve tolerance and acceptance; they deserve outright rejection. That doesn’t change just because the abuser is a woman, and it’s high time we quit excusing and accommodating such behavior from women in general (and “hot women” in particular, who’ve apparently never heard the word NO).

  25. Quick test, reverse the genders, and see if it is offensive.

    “I described how being a ‘hot, sexy wild chick’ is just another role, just another cage. But because this particular package of characteristics is sexually attractive and immature men get burnt”
    COULD READ
    “I described how being a ‘TOUGH MACHO MAN’ is just another role, just another cage. But because this particular package of characteristics is sexually attractive and immature WOMEN get burnt”

    Really, healthy relationships need to be obviously different from abusive ones, so that people like the author don’t accidentally give abusers a social licence.

    The solution to dealing with a psycho bitch from hell is to leave and go find a real woman.

  26. wellokaythen says:

    “I agree that an American man who has to pay a suffocating amount of alimony to his ex-wife and can’t see his kids suffers terribly from feelings of injustice but somehow it seems preferable over being beaten, locked up, denied education and raped.”

    So, is this comparing the ex-husband with women or with other men? Around the world there are millions of men who are beaten, locked up, denied education, and raped.

    I agree with much of the suggestions in the article, as long as we emphasize the “if,” as in IF you want to deal with a woman you think is a “psycho bitch from hell.” IF you think you may get something out of the conversation, IF you are willing to stand in that fire, then it would be well for you to be able to have a second consciousness about the situation. It would be could to take note of what you’re thinking and feeling and be able to have a mental state independent of those feelings. It would be best to avoid getting into a vicious emotional cycle that doesn’t go anywhere. Perhaps you will see that your behavior and her behavior are related to each other.

    Then again, one of the main reasons to practice a higher awareness is to make better decisions about your life. Perhaps the centered, self-aware enlightenment you achieve will help convince you that you are better off without such toxic people in your life. Perhaps your self-awareness will help you see that you are stuck in an abusive relationship with this woman. Perhaps you will see that when you blame yourself for her anger you are perpetuating her abuse of you, and you will begin to deny her that power over you.

    Or, as the photo suggests, maybe the lesson is that rabbits are extremely vulnerable pets….

  27. Adam…Sounds like an awfully high price to pay to have a version of love that isn’t for everyone. Besides, we already live in a culture that still does not expect women to own the consequences of their anger.This point of view only exascerbates the problem. I can tell you what I have tried to some success.I discuss anger and possible ways to deal with it openly and often. One can find out much about a person’s comfort zone that way.I look for signs of disassociation she may have about her anger such like if she says,”I really don’t get angry. I demand I be trusted enough to tell her when she is, “showing her ass” to chill.I give her the same authority.Simple, clean,nonjudgmental and it works.If she can’t do that it probably wouldn’t work anyway.

  28. Kat…everyman deserves to be with someone with your perspective.It is fair and balanced in it’s expectations of each and set clear and attainable boundaries. Right on.

  29. I quite like this article, I think it touches on an important point about the value of caring for other peoples struggles.

    Sure, you can point out that no-one has a right to expect that other people put up with their misbehavior, and that the responsibility for dealing with their problems ultimately lies with them and no-one else. You’d be right, but you’d also be missing the real point here.

    They may not have a right for us to care, but nor do we have a right to expect any empathy from them.
    Do we really want a world where people don’t care about each others struggles? More importantly, do you really want to be in a relationship where you don’t care about your partners struggles?

    OK, so some people will be too damaged to help, and your only option will be to avoid them for your own safety. But everyone in this world has their own set of challenges and struggles, and we don’t always manage to handle them as well as we should. There’s a quote by Bob Marley I find particularly appropriate here: “The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”

    If we write people off at their first screw-up, we don’t just hurt them, we impoverish ourselves as well. With a little more understanding of their circumstances and their reasons, we can perhaps find a more constructive way to approach the problem. They may not have a right to expect that from us, but it can be in our best interests to do it.

    • There comes a point in time when a person needs to overcome their struggles, and that point is when they know what their struggles are, want’s to overcome them & and how to overcome them. If they can continue down the path theyre going while bringing everything down around them, its time to cease being that shoulder to cry on. Wanting to overcome their struggles is a big one as I’ve known people who revel in their victimhood, with a sense of entitlement to smypathy and help from others.

      • Of course, you can empathize with someones struggles without requiring you to put up with their abuse. If they’re not willing to work on the their issues, walking away to protect yourself from them is absolutely the right call. Maybe it’ll be harder to do feeling pity instead of anger, but it’s doable.

        I’m not sure I agree with framing the consequences of peoples emotional insecurities as always capital-A Abuse. Sure, a lot of capital-A Abuse is perpetrated by damaged people, but not everything damaged people do is severe enough to warrant that label. It’s the less severe stuff where it’s worth considering helping.

        And, I’d also argue that presence and empathy doesn’t always mean being soft, sometimes it can mean giving them the push they need instead. To me, it’s more about finding constructive ways to approach someone else’s emotions.

        • I’d consider helping in both cases but the turning point is when it become a drain on yourself and they refuse to go about overcoming their problem. Simply having conversations can wear thin, i don’t agree that people should just listen and reassure them. How long can you have the same conversation with someone and offer the same advice before deciding to cut ties. Empathy is one thing, being an enabler is another.

          • Yep, if someone isn’t willing to help themselves it isn’t even within our power to help them. If it’s clear they won’t help themselves, it’s a waste to try to help them.

            It just seems sometimes that people have a hair-trigger for the ‘just leave’ option sometimes, in situations where other viable options exist. It seems to me that it can be a much harder call to make than that.

  30. Atalwin…,,its get more difficult if you really love the girl”…and those who follow a different script that works for them,aren’t in real love?Surely there are better ways for a man to achieve zen like self awareness than to subject himself to this.One could dedicate oneself to understanding the plight of those less fortunate. I don’t find much spiritual meaning in parenting another adult. I find it is a stretch to equate babysitting an adults emotional excesses with “caring for other peoples struggles” in the world, as Notavi implies .Sounds good and sweet but the two ideas are not the same thing.

  31. Eagle35…I think you are right in that pardoning these behaviors in women has the added affect of making it harder to idenitfy violence from women in other contexts.This is a strange discussion.If you are a guy who wants to be free of unreasonable anger from your partner,you can’t be.

    • My comment was moderated and deleted, ogwriter, so unless the moderators here do something about it, people aren’t going to know the context behind it.

  32. More empathy for women?? Enough is enough! As a true liberal, I believe in true equality and what’s needed in this day and age is for women to answer to someone and be put in check like men are. Men and boys are the ones that need to be understood. Just look at our failing schools and failing families as perjury is never charged in custody courts and fathers are removed from their children’s lives left and right. What we have today are the new bigots and we need the new liberals to stop drinking the antiquated kool-aide of political “correctedness.”

  33. William…I have had discussions about this emotional immaturity with others and women who behave this way,it has been speculated,use it to control. Allowing anyone to behave this way gives them tremendous control.Additionally,women who behave this way are underdeveloped in the emotional control centers in the brain.Remember,Kat trained herself- her brain- to be,to WORK differently than before.This behavior is not accidental as women who behave this way benefit.

  34. I can’t find a single credible source that deals with anger management in the domestic context- not A.A.R.D.V.A.R.K.,not the Asian American Women’s Health Center and not Pandora, that puts the burden on the victim; not one.

  35. Hot discussion! And it seems that in spite of a wide range of different opinions nobody is wrong) Because everyone has one’s own experience, way of thinking and level of consciousness. And this level is not higher or lower compare to others’, but just different. And for me personaly the main idea of this post is not so much about relationships, or psychology, or philosophy. It has deep fundamental spiritual essence. For those who are acquainted with yoga and tantra, where a man is a manifestation of Consciousness and a woman is a manifestation of Energy, it’s pretty clear. And the approach discribed by Atalwin works because it’s a universal rule: for the energy to flow the consciousness has to be clear. Man is the Sun and woman is the Moon. That’s why when the man manifests his ultimate nature (which is called “presence” in this post) it creates environment for the woman (actually not only for her, but for everybody) to get in tune with her ultimate nature . And when she is in harmony with herself, she is able to create the environment for the man. Thus he gets more energy to expand his presence and consciousness and to be more supportive to the woman. And so on. This way the circle is closed and there is no end to the evolution of both. So, it’s more like a spiral, not a circle. But the man is a staring point of it, what to do)
    It doesn’t mean that the roles cannot be switched, because our nature is dual, both feminine and masculine.
    Of course this perspective is very general, there are no certain formulas, there is a space for creativity, improvisation and growth. And yes, it requires maturity, open mindedness and practice.
    I’m aware that not everybody looks from this point of view. But the fact that this approach comes from 5000 years old knowledge is a good reason to try)))

    • Thanks Mee, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I am glad I am not the only one who understands this dynamic. The archetypal realities are very relevant to our daily lives whether we acknowledge it or not.

    • I would like to agree with you, Mee. I definitely understand and appreciate that you are explaining the perspective of where the author is coming from, and the problem I have with this perspective is not that it’s not a mature or even perhaps a “better” perspective to take, but rather that assumption is that whenever you meet a “psycho bitch” you’re just coming up with a woman who’s had a bad experience and is reacting irrationally, so we should take the time “understand how she’s been hurt.”

      The thing is a woman who has been hurt and is upset is drastically different from the archetypal “Psycho bitch.” Yes she may be hurt and yes she may be lashing out at a man because either: 1) he hurt her, 2) her previous guy hurt her and now she’s taking it out on her new man, 3) or some other experience she had in the past, and that doesn’t excuse her behavior and it doesn’t excuse her from being nasty, cruel, abusive, or criminal.

      A “psycho bitch” isn’t just a woman who is a little upset or gets angry and shouts on occasion, that’s reasonable human behavior (which by the way that same behavior when done by a man is when women start saying “stop yelling at me. You’re scaring me” or gets labeled as an “angry black man.”) When this is the case I’d say your approach is valid. The quintessential “psycho bitch” is a woman who takes her emotions over and above and into abusive and criminal territory and uses her fury for justifying her actions.

      If a woman was dating a guy who was going through her phone messages and emails, screaming at her incessantly, demanding to know where she’s been and who she was with, got angry enough to key her car, break in her car’s windows, (all quintessential “Psycho Bitch” stereotypes) you wouldn’t tell her “you need to understand him and what you did to hurt him” you would be saying “Girl get the hell away from the psycho, we need to lock him up for domestic violence.”

    • Beautiful Mee. I am happy that you understood what I have been trying convey and I am impressed how you included and embraced the perspectives of all the other commenters too. Yes, in a covert way I have been trying to explain a tantric mechanism stripped from theory and brought back to its bare essence: developing consciousness by practicing listening in the most fundamental sense of the word. I like to use non-spiritual language so I just call it listening.

      It is nice for me to switch to the (feminine) role of the receiver and feel the calming and grounding effect of being heard. You have proven my point to me in an unforeseen way. Spiraling indeed.

  36. Anyone having problems with a Personality Disordered Person (whether your spouse, girlfriend, a family-member or friend) PLEASE go to Shrink4men.com. It is an invaluable resource for abused men and their families. I believe this is a serious issue for many men, and I know men who have benefitted greatly from the content of this website. By the way, I am in no way affiliated with Dr. Palmatier’s website.

  37. Alison…Thank you so much.Just knowing that a place like this exists is stress reducing.It is good to know that someone is listening.This site is great.

    • Anyone can be an abuser, and the abused needs the support of a strong team in order to get as far away from their abuser as possible. Our society’s gender roles do a disservice to abused men, to the extent that many of them don’t even acknowledge that they are being abused. This is a discussion that needs to be normalized. Dr. Palmatier’s website and articles such as Mr. Pilon’s get people talking, which is essential.

  38. Seems to me that once again women get the short straw with the succinct but potent label…
    Prey tell what is the male equivalent of a ‘psycho bitch’?
    (Anyone can be an asshole, unisex labels do not count)


    • Prey tell what is the male equivalent of a ‘psycho bitch’?

      Abuser, misogynist, jerk, douche, dick, dickhead, etc….

      Yes I said abuser because the language is shaped to the point that the very act of abuse is defined as “something that men do to women”. This casts men as terrible beasts that brutalize women with the goal of controlling them, even in cases where he is the one that is being abused by her. You are right to point out that women seem to have a special term carved out for them when they do that stuff, but that’s because that stuff is associated with being male in the first place.

      If a woman that is controlling, gets out of hand, or gets abusive wasn’t treated like such a special circumstance (even when she is clearly in the wrong) that label might be stick so much.

      This was part of my point of disagreement of the original post about there being some sort of “universal lack of empathy” for women when they do these things. I don’t think it’s so much a lack of empathy (although that can be and is the case sometimes) but rather an overflow of sympathy (that may be getting passed off as emapthy) that leads to guys getting fed up over it.

      To me the problem isn’t that there is a unique lable for such women. The problem is that their behaviors are being treated like an anomoly in the first place, which I think leads to such labels coming about. If women that engage in these behaviors were treated the way men were (and I’m not saying that the treatment of women that do this stuff should be cranked up to where men are, I’m saying that both need to be set to a new, more fair standard) I think the labeling would fade.

      When guys act like that and are called the stuff I list above the question is, “Why does he act like such a _____?” but when women act like that and are called psycho bitches the question becomes, “Why you gotta call her a psycho bitch?”

  39. …My experience with many people who are into yoga-I live near Berkeley,Ca- is that they use it as a short cut to greater spirituality- bypassing the real hardwork of growth and change.Many of these people are disconnected from the kind of real giving and sacrifice that grows a person’s spiritually.

  40. It seems that this article is triggering reactions from people’s sensitive egos, and causing them to miss the point (men and women). This article is not about extreme situations involving abusive relationships, and it is also not suggesting that abuse is okay.

    When I read this article it reminded me of the saying “you only hurt the ones you love” and I believe that both men and women alike are guilty of expressing raw emotion in an unproductive manner – i.e. like a psycho bitch – especially in intimate relationships. There is a sense of safety in this that causes people to express themselves differently than they would with a stranger (like most emotions).

    The theme of this article hinges on the fact that, as a human being with no control over other people, you can only be responsible for your own actions. Additionally, this website in its entirety is predominantly directed towards a male audience. It makes sense then, that an article of this nature would be a discussion of how men can react more productively to a woman who is emotionally out of control, not vice versa. It is not to imply that men are never emotionally out of control, or that men are always responsible. It is a self-help perspective for a simplified version of a very common situation that men face with women. Similarly, on a website or blog that is predominantly directed towards a female audience, I am sure you could find an article titled something along the lines of “How to deal with arrogant assholes from hell” with an article outlining how women can better compose themselves in heated situations with men, to be better listeners, more compassionate, etc. This article would also not be condoning abuse or implying that women are responsible for the mistreatment that they receive. It would be a self-help perspective of a very common situation that women face with men.

    In my experience, male or female, psycho opposition or not, it is imperative as a human being to really remember that you cannot be responsible for anyone’s actions but your own. I think the take-home message here should be that instead of trading blame around like a hot potato, everyone should take a look at themselves and question if their actions and emotions are serving them in a positive way? If faced with a situation like this, is there a way I could react that would better serve my own peace and happiness?

    It’s easy to play the victim. Empower yourself by asking, “What can I do?”

    • This is well said. A voice that believes in equality is quite rare. But as noble men used to support the efforts to remedy injustices towards women and minorities, we would be well served as a people to open our eyes to how the pendulum has swung in the other direction. And this idea of reverse discrimination is still hotly debated. Many will say its impossible for a white male to experience sexism or any discrimination because men, make more money on average than women (a junk science statistic) or whatever “facts” are found.

      I’ve been a democrat my whole life until I experience the filth by dirty girls in custody courts. They say they destroy the father because its best for the kids but its not. Kids are actually safer with a fit father than a mother bringing home strange men, etc. the whole system only thinks of kissing up the woman so she’s free from as much strife as possible for her usually selfish reasons to divorce.

      This is child abuse and it needs to be understood for it to be fixed. It isn’t equal! Women answer to no one in this rotten “politically correct” hypocrisy.

      • I agree Jeremy that the court system for divorce is hypocritical in many ways. Not all mothers are promiscuous, and not all fathers are dead-beats. As parents, no one is perfectly fit. In an ideal world, every divorce case would be judged case-by-case to ensure the best for both parties and the children involved. However, with the soaring rates of divorce in our society, I think it is safe to say that courts and parents alike really don’t have time or money for this. This is not to condone the sometimes poor decisions made in court, but just to acknowledge the unfortunate reality of the situation that probably lead to it being so poorly systematized.

        Perhaps the problem is not with how poorly courts deal with divorce, but that there are too many divorces being carried out in the first place. Personally, I believe mothers and fathers simply don’t try hard enough at marriage. In extenuating circumstances, divorce may be the only answer, but it seems to me that many divorces stem from people’s laziness and selfishness. Too lazy to work on themselves for the sake of the relationship, and selfish enough to think that the grass really must be greener on the other side.

        I enjoyed this article by Atalwin, because he challenges the tendency people have to blame others for their situation (i.e. deeming a woman to be the mythical psycho bitch is easier than questioning your own participation). Every woman is capable of being a psycho bitch, and every man is capable of being an insensitive asshole. When you come to realize this about your partner, the solution is not to condemn them or retaliate. The only way to be successful in marriage is to be compassionate and understanding.

        Men and women alike are caught up in this ridiculous notion that “true love” is rainbows and lollipops and that love should be easy. It’s not, love is hard. My experience has been, that true love forces a person to see the things in his or her SELF that is most despicable, or the most uncomfortable. This is either an opportunity for personal growth, or to bail out (i.e. divorce). Unfortunately, majority of people cower and choose the later.

        Love, life, and families are not perfect, nor are they cut and dry. However, a little more effort on part of mom and dad could go along way, especially when the experiences of their children are at stake.

  41. Jeremy…There is no vast conspiracy against white males.ALL men are suffering(except the feminist prez).Feminists could care less about the average man of color.We saw this in the election.The Huffpost and MSNBC,purposely, buried any issues relative to the interests of men under an avalance of womens issues.- Remember The War on Women. The truth is,from my experience,men caused this because for too long they have,through their silence, aided in their own demise.

  42. Wow Atalwin, I love your message about listening. When we reduce people to mere labels, we know we have failed. We are all complex and multi-dimensional. The human capacity for growing, learning, and change is immense. People don’t get “unhinged” without cause. Those causes are very often ignored when passing judgement. At the end of the day, there is really no way to pass judgement and be compassionate. There is no way for us all to be happy without compassion. The capacity for change in even the most backward people, male or female, starts with compassion. Take it from a former, reformed Psycho Bitch from Hell.

    • Matthew says:

      Nobody — NOBODY — would write an article called “In Defence of Wife Killers” about narcissistic or sociopathic men who batter their wives and children, often to death… and, I must add, with good cause.

      The so-called psycho bitch from hell exists in two places:

      1. The psycho bitch exists solely in the mind of the selfish or abusive partner, parent, spouse, or child. They are the result of projection, exactly what this article deals with.

      2. The psycho bitch from hell exists in reality. They are violent, destructive, brutally abusive, etc. They are just as capable of threatening a person’s life, reputation, and psychology as their male counterparts.

      As a male, a feminist, and an egalitarian — and somebody who has experience with Type 2 — I must say that the amount of apologism for female abusers is shocking. Even after their abuses are discovered, the blame continues to shift to their victims, an act we’d find rightly sickening if it was any other demographic. And their abuses aren’t merely male-directed or partner-directed either. Their children, male or female, suffer. Their parents, both mother and father, frequently suffer their abuses.

      Worse still, I’ve yet to find a single woman who thinks that treating these truly abusive people as wilting lilies as anything other than condescending to women and feminism, or who don’t see these actions as diminishing to their ability to take responsibility for their actions, and to express their emotions and feelings in ways that aren’t abusive or threatening.

      Being “good men” means many things. Foremost it means being responsible and responsive, and directed our selfishness in positive and altruistic ways not only to women, but to our children and society in general as well. But that goes for women as well, and it goes without saying, that they too be responsible and cooperative. That they want, but want healthily, and that we as an entire people turn to destruction only when necessary: Protecting ourselves, or protecting others.

      There is no need to look at the second kind of “psycho bitch from hell” — in reality, simply female abusers — as being “the product of men,” or “not listened to,” or “not loved enough.” More often than not with any abuser, regardless of gender or other demographics, these people are listened to and loved as much (if not more so) than other people, and force their victims through continuous torment.

      To ask “did you listen to him/her?” is nothing more than odious victim-blaming and needs to stop. The victim has already asked themselves that so many times, so often, trying to change to appease the unpleasable, that turning around and blaming them is sickening.

      Abuse, in all its forms, is unacceptable. The only victims of abuse are the victims, not the abuser. The only stigma from abuse belongs to the victims, not the abuser. And only when society shuts off any and all sympathy to abusers will they have no rocks to crawl under when the lights come on.

      Choosing to hurt women because your mom beat you is unacceptable. Choosing to hurt women because your dad beat you is unacceptable. Beating your second wife because your first wife left is unacceptable. Beating your second husband because your first husband left is unacceptable. There is no defence. There is no justification: No matter the identity of the victim, and no matter the identity of the abuser.

      • Matthew says:

        A brief follow-up just to avoid confusion. When I say:

        “Nobody — NOBODY — would write an article called “In Defence of Wife Killers” about narcissistic or sociopathic men who batter their wives and children, often to death… and, I must add, with good cause.”

        I do not mean that these men have good cause to commit violence to others. I mean nobody would defends them, and THAT is a good cause. Apologies for the ambiguity, I am in no way justifying domestic violence or spousal murder.

  43. Your comments about presence and listening are important and well expressed. You bring up many, many other issues – far too many to address in such a short article. Listening and empathy may indeed be very helpful to some people – of both sexes – who are playing a role. But you assume without any apparent evidence that all of these women from hell are looking for counsel and help with their issues. This is a highly sentimental view of humanity that I do not share. Some may fall into that category. Others may enjoy being who and what they are.

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