I Had an Affair with a Married Man (and I Don’t Regret It)

Sandra Cliff thought of their affair as “big love and big lies,” but her old lover seems to make his open marriage work—only with more orgasms.

I was 29; he was 43.

I was a lowly direct report; he was a Vice President and my boss’s, boss’s, boss.

I was divorced with a two year old son; he was married with four kids and an adopted nephew.

I was lonely; he was overwhelmed.

I was a yogini; he was a Tai Chi master and a practitioner of Qi Gong.

He was the first person who said to me, “How many times in your life will you get the opportunity to be truly excellent at something?” It was at his urging that I began to dig deeper into my love of yoga. Up until meeting him, my practice had been just a way to tone my abs and a way to sweat out the previous night’s toxins in hopes of creating a clean space for filling up with the coming night’s impurities. He opened my eyes to so many things, not the least of which was multiple orgasms.

In studying Qi Gong, he was pursuing the mastery of energy. He was studying with a doctor based in Austin, Texas, the town where we both resided. His ultimate goal? To walk through walls. In his five years of studying, he had been focused on the five layers of matter, then he was expected to master the bridge between matter and anti-matter. This “bridge” was sexual energy. His practice consisted of meditating himself into an erection and then wrapping a silk, which had been marinated in certain herbs and oils, around his member. This silk was connected to a basket containing weights. Next, he would lift the basket via his erection. He max-ed out at 22.5 lbs. Suffice it to say, this was impressive.

♦◊♦

Let me back up. We met at work. He was older and I wasn’t really looking. But then, I noticed I kept seeing him out at bars when I was going to see my favorite bands. And then, I noticed in the meetings I conducted, which he always enthusiastically attended, he laughed a little too loudly at my jokes, arrived a little too early to each meeting and stayed a little too long afterwards to discuss my latest proposal. It was at one of the band performances that we first began chatting about something other than work. Afterwards, he walked me to my car. I was extremely attracted to him, but I couldn’t shake that he was married. It just felt wrong. So I mentioned my concern.

He laughed it off and said that should be the least of my concerns. He explained that they weren’t together, he and his wife, Cynthia. He said that they still loved each other, they’d met in high school and had been married 23 years. They were living in Boston while he was in college. He was commuting to New York shortly thereafter for his first job. He was there Monday through Friday. She took on a lover in his absence. He said he’d loved her dearly from the start, so he practiced detachment. He allowed her her lovers and she allowed him his career. When the time came, they moved to Chicago. It was in Chicago that he talked her into having children. For several years after, she gave up the lovers and focused on growing their brood. Within five years time, they had four children. After the birth of the fourth, admittedly an “oops” baby, she’d had plastic surgery. She had her boobs augmented, her belly flattened and her ass lifted. She also had implants in her lips and her skin around her face tightened.

After she’d recovered from the surgeries, his wife had gone back to other lovers. Even though they were still married, they had by now acquiesced that they were no longer in love. They “loved” each other like a brother loves a sister, but not like lovers. So she had convinced him to take a lover as well. But he was socially awkward in that way that geniuses can be, so she had to help him find his first lover, who was, coincidentally, the nanny. It only lasted a year. And then I came along.

I was basically the opposite of his wife in every way. I was fit from all of the yoga and my hair was its natural color—sort of a dirty blonde, mostly brown. I had no augmentation and turned up my nose at those who indulged in such fodder for insecurity. I was proud of my single-working mom status, but I was also maniacally looking to shed it. He was a self-made multi-millionaire. If I said that wasn’t alluring, I’d be lying through my teeth.

He was concerned not about his marital status, but about our working relationship. In our company, managers (let alone VPs) were not allowed to date their subordinates.

I convinced him not to worry about the working relationship (we could be careful); he convinced me not to worry about the marriage (they didn’t love each other and besides—it was allowed on both sides). And so, we slept together. And thus began the time I dated a married man.

It was tricky. He wasn’t good at hiding his affection and truth be told, neither was I. We would sneak around the halls at our huge office campus. I would deliver him his favorite Starbucks treat; he would leave a rose under my keyboard. We spent every weekend together. I would load my car up with my son’s favorite items and we would drive from our suburban home way north of town to his luxury mini-mansion in a resort in the hill country. His wife would leave and spend the weekend with her lover, who was in a Motley Crue cover band. We would swim in the heated pool, hike the hills behind his house and cook large, extravagant meals. As blissful as the weekends were, they always came to a close. And then, I had to stop playing house and load up my car with my child and our things and drive back to boring old suburbia. Usually exhausted and spent from an exhilarating weekend, I would cry the whole way home. I couldn’t sustain this. I knew something had to give.

After just two months, I tried to break it off. So Clark, in a rush of urgency to maintain the relationship status, booked a trip. He took me to Mexico. It was serene, divine and delicious—a feast for the senses. One day, he kept me in the cabana for four, yes, that’s right, four orgasms. I kept trying to get up and go outside for sunshine and he would capture me and whisk me back to bed. As divine as it was, all good things must come to an end. And sure enough, once we were back in our environment, I was back to being second fiddle to a wife who didn’t love him and kids who were utterly lost and confused.

So again, I tried to break it off. And again, he planned a trip. This time, it was with all of the kids. Yes, that’s right. Me, my rich, married lover, his brother (a chef) and my friend (a nanny), all went to a Texas beach resort complete with six (yes, that’s right, as in one-two-three-four-five-six of them) kids. And somehow after all of this, I loved him even more. Yet again, he went home to the wife. Yet again, I broke it off. This went back and forth for nine months total. My parents were livid about the idea, so I started lying to them early on. My best friend told me she would not watch the train wreck, so I was lonely on so many levels when not with him. Plus all the sneaking around and lying at work took its toll on me. Eventually, inexplicably, he was fired. They never cited our relationship but I suspect the corporate management team had somehow discovered us. That led to him moving, but by this time we were already split and he was dating another single mom.

The last I heard, Clark and his wife Cynthia are still married. And as I struggle to maintain my second marriage, a marriage that I can assure you entails far fewer orgasms, it baffles me. So I ask you, is their approach so wrong? It fucked with my head like no other and I am certainly glad to be rid of it, but essentially, in his mind, it was detachment. He was not attached to her fidelity. He simply accepted her ability to love him in the only way she knew how. And she allowed him the same courtesy. Therein, their marriage remained spicy. They each had independence. And although it’s not something I can fathom, I will offer that there is something to be said for their staying power. Wherever you are Clark, touché. Touché, my friend. Touché.

 

Read more on Infidelity on The Good Life.

Image credit: MadEmoiselle Sugar/Flickr

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Comments

  1. and yet another article about a woman having an affair being a mind opening, life changing experience that was fulfilling and about “love”. It’s a good thing the author isn’t a man or she’d be a horrible person who ruins lives, and can only think with her crotch.

  2. wellokaythen says:

    “Having sex with me will help me walk through walls.” I should have tried that shtick when I was single. I can’t believe the stuff out there that works today.

  3. This guy saw a mark from a mile away and sweet talked her with his Eastern philosophy nonsense because he knew she’d eat it up. I should have mentioned in my first post that she’s having problems with her current marriage because she’s not getting as many orgasms as with this guy. This speaks to many of the comments in the “bad boy” thread where many men pointed out that women frequently don’t respect or appreciate their husbands who put up with their crap daily, yet long for the days of their carefree life with the various “bad boys” they dated before who were so superior sexually (of course they weren’t really any better at sex then the husbands it’s just that they were more attracted to them than they are their husbands). This guy was just a grown up, older “bad boy” who had they money and education to make his lines seem sophisticated.

    • (of course they weren’t really any better at sex then the husbands it’s just that they were more attracted to them than they are their husbands)

      Exactly. A reliable husband or boyfriend just doesn’t provide the emotional rollercoaster rides many women need to get excited.

      • Despite having lived the classic Beta vs Alpha dilemma and shown her superior desire for alpha I am sure this feminist would deny the dichotomy has any relevance.

  4. Why is everybody so negative. Both the man and the woman got what they wanted — a friend with benefits. It’s hard to see anything wrong with that. It has worked well in my marriage of over 40 years.

    • But she didn’t get what she wanted. She’s having trouble in her marriage now because her husband isn’t living up to (not just the sex I’m sure the fact that the guy was a millionaire is part of it too) the one who “got away”.

      • And THAT is why guys care about a girls number. THe more partners she has had the more teh chance has gone up that she has had better before in all sorts of ways. This problem is icnreased by the fact that women can have casual sex with men that are far more attractive than themselves and that they could get to marry them. So a woman that has had a lot of casual sex will almost always have had many sex partners that where better looking, more successfull, more charming, more confident, more alpha, or whatever than her husband. A great recepife for a spicy marriage don`t you think? And this article is a testament to that dynamic. Her marriage now is suffering because she had so much better before.So if you think a guy that cares about a girls number is just an evil slut shamer you are wrong. He is making a very sound judgment for his own relationship happiness.

        • @Iggy……

          I am a firm believer in what you are saying…..Most women will deny that it matters. But, only a moron would believe such. It does matter much.

          I believe this is why their is so much sexual dysfunction in marriage today. The women really do not desire their husbands as much sexually as these other men.

          Fine. So, why don’t women marry the men whom they find sexually attractive and leave the others the hell alone? All they end up doing is creating sexual misery and torment for these men.

          • You can say the same thing about men who have slept their way around. From what I see, women tend to want to know the number of partners a man has had to check if they can catch an STI off them. That’s safety. Not like men worrying about their egos. That’s vain. I understand that it is a concern for anyone to think that the other person has had better but that’s something you have to sort out between you and not let your vanity and insecurity get in the way. I’m not making excuses for this woman. She is an individual that doesn’t speak for everyone. Her issues and insecurities speak for themselves in her struggling new marriage. But blaming sexual dysfunction in a marriage entirely on women because she’s been with someone better, married or otherwise,is too one sided. He wants to know her number because he’s worried she’s had better which doesn’t appeal to his ego while she wants to know his number to see how safe she is. While sexual satisfaction is very important in a relationship, it doesn’t excuse blaming one over the other

            • @Selina…..

              Here is one big difference I see with men vs women. Women just do not seem to give a shit one way or another. In fact, all evidence clearly shows that women view men who have been around with a lot of women as better lovers and seem to want such men. Why look at Jesse James or George Clooney.

              I think for men it is not ego or insecurity at all. Who wants a woman who has given her best to all the other men? If you are a low partner person, as was I when I got married, and my ex was high then what I was looking forward to (a robust sex life) NEVER materialized. Why? She had already BTDT! I was just selected to provide a baby, 5000 Sqft home, and fucking Range Rover. Sex was once a damn month. This is why it matters Selina.

              It is not my responsibility as a man to hold other men accountable for being man whores. That is the responsibility of women. But, clearly most women could care less.

              We should all be concerned about STDs and STIs. So, being concerned about how many knotches he has on his belt only because of potential STDs is pretty lame to me. Sorry. But, as I stated earlier these men are valued as a premium for most women. So, I am not surprised.

              I certainly place 100% of the blame of my previous marriage on my ex wife. Why? She was the one who only wanted sex once a month and refused to do a damn thing about it.

              I am convinced that most women have one type of man they want to have sex with and another type they wish to marry and/or have a long term relationship with. They appear mutually exclusive.

  5. BTDT…all I can say is that it was so destructive to the kids…can’t even say how terrible it was….

  6. I’m betting dimes to donuts that this article will not be received well by many men on Gmp. How could it?

    • @ogwriter…How are you Bro? I hope all is well with you.

      Thanks for that book reference, “Why Women Have Sex” I am two-thirds of the way through it. It is a good read.

      In December, I read “Sex At Dawn”. Now that book I read twice!!! The chapter “On Mona Lisa” still resonates with me. I love books and ideas that challenge the conventional wisdom AND backs it up with research and empirical evidence.

      Thus my love for Dr. Sowell. Plus I too studies Econ at the grad level. Dr. Sowell is a terrific writer and a powerful thinker. You should check out a book by him called, “Ever Wonder Why” It is a collection of short essays.

      And as always, Peace! and Much Love!

      • CHeck out the criticism of Sex at Dawn. Although it makes some valid points a lot if it is factually wrong and has been refuted.

        • @Iggy…

          Yes, I have read many. I too had some issues with some parts of the book as well as its logic.

          But, on the whole I think it really does add something to the debate about monogamy vs non-monogamy.

          Next is “Mating In Captivity.”

  7. I am not inclined to believe this is a true story.
    Reads too much like a chick flick.

    Yes, sex is powerful and with out a working strong sexual relationship, marriages ( dating too) lose the ground they stand on no matter what. Being in a relationship that does not involve sex with your partner does lead to infidelity…

    But calling that affair magic, stating that ” his energy” was what he was worried about is utter nonsense.

    Soft porn for the woman’s mind… thats what this reads as.
    Frankly.. for that reason alone it was a good read.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Hmmm. It does read a little too good to be true. “Dear Penthouse, I never thought this would happen to me….”

  8. Who really cares about you fucking some married guy.

    As Joanna remarked the other day, “go fuck a toaster for all I care!”

    Next.

    • @ Jules … it’s simple. Articles like this are an attempt to normalize that which is not socially acceptable in today’s society. I did a quick google search and there are plenty of articles that show that this kind of relationships have screwed up their marriages.

      Anyone interested in reading articles on how these relationship screwed up their lives?

  9. And the sanctity of marriage continues to collapse in America. The greatest threat to the sanctity of marriage is lack of respect for it, thus leading to degeneration of the marriage, and often divorce. Marriage demands personal sacrifice, and pays back in great rewards. If you cannot fully commit, dont get married!

    • @Keeeper …. you are so right. But wait and see some of the responses related to your response. Believe me, you’ll be pegged as being a bigot and forcing your view on others.

    • @Keeper…

      I agree with you 100%. However, it really is the people who have changed.

      We live in a narcissistic, instant gratification, me me me culture today. People want everything and they want it now. In fact, they think they deserve it! All this does is to fuel an intense sense of entitlement.

      You have people marrying for the wrong reasons and marrying the wrong people. I just think a lot of people simply view it as something to do. Seriously.

      We need to dispense with this unrealistic notion of romantic love. It creates this false belief in marital bliss without sacrifice….I look at how my friends from college who are Indian or Korean or Japanese never had a sense of romantic love with their marriages. But, they have grown in love and happiness over the years. My fellow American friends are on their second, third, and even fourth marriages.

      • @Keeper … you are so right. I’ve been married for almost 39 years now and I never expected my wife to “make me happy.” Romance is a great idea but it’s not all that there is. Care and love for the other person and putting yourself out there for him/her. I do what I do because I love her and have never “expected” anything in return but the truth is, I received what I needed a hundred times over.

        I am still romantic at times but it’s not the norm. It’s simple things like laying in bed watching TV, knowing the women next to me is devoted and loves me is often enough. No one walks lovingly, hand in hand into the sunset. There are no violins in the background and for darn sure, I have no fog lens and special lighting. In essence, life is not what we see on TV’s and in movies or read in books.

        In so far as the so called “professionals?” IMO, many of them feed this narcissism and give people false hope that if you do this that or the other, you’ll be happy. Hog Wash

  10. Not So Anonymous says:

    Of course he was full of shit. Like every cheating married man before and after him he has to have a shtick to get the young woman (spiritual nonsense + $$) and a reason to give her to justify why she’ll stay involved (loveless marriage, arrangement, etc.).

    This story is as old as time itself and not at all unbelievable. What’s unbelievable is that young women, particularly single moms who are broke, still fall for it. The kids get lost in the shuffle as the mom focuses on the drama and chasing the dream that this cheater will take care of her. It’s the same story told in Pretty Woman without the happy ending.

    “I was proud of my single-working mom status, but I was also maniacally looking to shed it. He was a self-made multi-millionaire. If I said that wasn’t alluring, I’d be lying through my teeth.”

  11. Some puzzle pieces don’t come together in this story for me….
    1. He is a VP
    2. He is her boss’s boss’s boss
    3. He is a “self-made multi-millionaire”
    4. ….and yet…
    5. He was fired??….. maybe it’s just me

    • VPs at tech companies get fired all the time. It’s not that big a deal, they get very generous severance packages and they know they will be hired by another company pretty quickly. Doesnt matter how high up you are if you take the blame for a bad/failed project.

    • @jakki….

      But, I thought women were not hypergamous? (with sarcasm of course).

  12. “but I couldn’t shake that he was married. It just felt wrong”

    That is called your conscience. Now you don`t have one anymore.

    Why are western media filled with women talking about the immoral things they did loudly procaliming they don`t feel guilty? And where will that end? Have far are they going to go in obsolving themselves of guilt for immoral decisions? Anyway, the thing is you DO feel guilty and that is why you have written this article. You have written it to try to convince yourself that you don`t feel you are a bad person and to get support in that belief because deep down you DO in fact feel you are a bad person.

    • @Iggy…

      Women love to discuss…The point is not to reach a conclusion. Rather it is to discuss the action.

      You see, as I have learned the hard way, women have sex with all sorts of men (and women). I was brainwashed, like so many other men, that emotional connectedness was important to women when it came to sex. BULLCRAP! Some men need not even be attractive for a woman to have sex with (think call girls). He can a wealthy guy. Her friends might have told her he was good in bed. All sorts of reasons.

      Just do not buy into the conventional wisdom or why women say they want to have sex. Ninety percent of what they say is totally false! Now, that my friend you can take to the bake.

  13. . I was proud of my single-working mom status, but I was also maniacally looking to shed it

    You are proud that you made bad relationship choices that ended up giving your children a worse upbringing than if you had made good relationship choices and managed to give them a home with both a mother and a father? That makes no sense at all. Being a single mom is not something to celebrate it is instead a highly undesirable outcome for the kids, for the couple who tried to builda life together but failed (or the two people who irresponsible got pregnant in a situation where they could not provide the child with an intact home because they werent actually together etc.) and it is a highly undersirable outcome for society which is burdened by the social problems created by single parent homes (children from single parent households top every negative statistic). So being a single mom is most certainly not something to be proud of.

    • Nearly every single mom on my facebook feed (all girls from HS) shared one of two tastes in men. They were either the “bad boy” chaser or they moved away from home and found their “Prince Charming (high value, very attractive, white, affluent)” in college. Of course they left a trail of very caring, great guys behind who would have done anything to be with them, but who were deemed not datable.

      The interesting thing is that even after their experiences they rarely change the type of guy they are looking for. They woman who wrote this is clearly in that group. She didn’t learn from past mistakes, and is still chasing “the dream”. I know the narrative is to “respect” single moms because they have it so hard, but often their being single is an outcome of their poor relationship choices when it came to the men in their lives.

      • Precisely!

        And for those cases where they are single moms because they had sex with someone they where not in a relationship with and did not use protection think about what that actually means. Instead of having a child when in a stable relationship with someone you deem of good character and to be a good father/mother and someone you think you can stay together with to create a loving home for life you are making a baby with someone who will not or most likely not be in a relationship with you, which you don`t know it will be a good parent, which you don`t know the character of etc. In other words making babies outside of stable relationships with presumed good parenting prospects means not giving a shit what conditions your child grows up in. So if your child is from sex in an uncommitted relationship why on earth would you be proud of that? This goes equally for women AND men of course (though women have far greater control of contraceptives and have 100% control of wether they have an abortion or not).

      • Every woman should read Lori Gottlieb’s book, “Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough”

        http://www.lorigottlieb.com/index.php

        It’s a terrific read. But, it is at odds with the feminist PC police.

      • @jimbo…

        “……but often their being single is an outcome of their poor relationship choices when it came to the men in their lives”

        I am not so sure about this in all cases. There are high earning women who want to be mothers but have not found Mr. Perfect. So, they visit a sperm bank and pay big $$$$ for some great genes. Then they hire a nanny to raise the kid(s) while they push ahead in their career…..

        I have observed this behavior. I am not judging them. Just saying.

        • @ Jules, yes that does happen, but I was speaking of the ones who aren’t single moms “by choice”. All the ones in my example are divorced or got pregnant and the guy split. Not a high earner in the bunch except for some of the divorced ones getting alimony checks.

  14. Revo Luzione says:

    Let the haters hate, the article is a great depiction of people who live and think outside the box connecting in authentic ways, exploring life and love with passion.

    Bravo to Sandra and to Clark for daring to go against the grain, live according to their own standards and no one else’s. There’s no one relationship model that fits all people all the time. The open relationship model, while not for the faint of heart, offers vast emotional richness and personal growth. It’s not for weak-minded, so the chumps can step off any time and stay in “safe” relationships.

    • @Revo… Yes, congrats is in order. I’m sure many people said the same thing to the teacher who divorced her husband, married her child student and had the child students baby. I’m sure the words past her mouth that she dared go against the grain.

      This “chump” (ME) will happily stay in his “safe” relationship with his WIFE of 38+ years. Given the ice storm lets up, this “chump” will be going to his “chumpettes” house and play with his “chumpling” grandchildren.

      • Revo Luzione says:

        Congrats on being married nearly 4 decades, bro. That’s pretty cool. You must have an awesome wife. I bet she stayed home with your kids at least part of the time when they were young and impressionable. I bet she never balks at making you a sandwich. I don’t believe you are a chump. I believe you, and your wife, are stellar examples. But there are chumps out there in America, in this day and age, who believe that the kind of marriage you have is still possible, without either importing a traditional-minded woman from SE Asia or FSU countries, or devising some sort of Gordian knot for potential wives that can only be cut or untied by feminine, nurturing women who put family above all else. Those days, are gone, baby gone. The sociosexual world that we younger men inhabit can only described as bullshit on stilts. We are simply adapting.

        Perhaps, well-ensconced in the protective bubble of neigh on 40 years of marital bliss, you have missed out on personally observing or experiencing the societal changes that have made it virtually impossible to recreate what you’ve got. They’re too numerous to list, but these changes in economics and social politics make it not only virtually impossible, but also ridiculously risky to even try it without really testing the woman you’re with. Most won’t even get out of the interview stage. In the mean time, a man’s got needs.

        The solution for a lot of men, including myself, looks a lot like Clark’s–developing one’s self uniquely to one’s own ideals both personally and professionally, then leveraging that personal capital to acquire and manage a soft harem of women with whom we engage in romantic, emotional, and sexual connection. It beats with sticks the alternative: high risk of divorce court theft, marriage to harpie, etc, etc. The definition of a Good Man to many of us young men making our way in the world is simply to become Good at Being a Man. That means abandoning the traditional social contract in favor of more enlightened (of human nature) self interest, for the traditional social contract has been broken such that the tattered fragments that remain no longer provide the nourishment and reward of a life well-lived.

        But, detecting a strong current social conservatism in your post, I can only paraphrase Vox Day when I say that I don’t expect you to agree with me, nor do I expect you to understand, for your kind has abandoned young men to become cannon fodder, or else good little corporate footsoldiers in a dystopian social environment that offers little reward for “manning up” in the traditional sense. So, please take no offense when I kindly direct you to pound sand.

        • @Revo, Thank you for the compliments and yes, my wife is amazing but then again, so am I. What we have is something that didn’t just happen. In 38 years there were plenty of times that I one or both of us thought of packing it up. But it takes a lot of hard work.

          Nonetheless, I would be the first to admit that I could never be a single man in today’s world. That’s not to say that men today can’t obtain what I thankfully had/have.

          I got married in the throws of feminism and I should say radical feminism at that. We were also in the midst of the so called sexual revolution.

          Of the two listed above, the one that had the most impact was radical feminism which back in those days men were continuously barraged with stereotypical accusations of men being oppressive and chauvinistic. What’s worse was that my wife was barraged with messages that her worth was devalued as a stay at home mom.

          That being said, I do take issue to your comment about who I am and that you don’t expect me to understand. You couldn’t be further from wrong. I work with adolescent males in a residential setting. I gave up a corporate career 15+ years ago to do what I do. A career that without exaggeration, paid me more then 4 times what I make now. But also a career that almost killed m. Although my standards and expectation appear high, they are very much attainable. I have a great deal of empathy for men and what their struggles are. IMO, men have given up and lowered the bar. I refuse to lower the bar in that I have seen men and boys of this millennium attain their goals. I think men like you have let our male youth down in that you’re not willing to fight for them but instead, show them that standards and expectations are not worth fighting for.

          I often see men like you falling into the trap that there is nothing out there for them and it’s far easier to conform then to fight. Like my wife, my daughter is a stay at home mom. She married a man who is the breadwinner (fireman) and she stays home with the kids. Her husband, who came from a broken home appears determine to make it work as well. Easy? Not at all, but in five years he’s not given up and is moving forward.

          My son, who is still single at the age of 27 refuses to lower the bar. He’s the odd man out because of men like you but that doesn’t discourage him or others like him. Having his own home and a college degree, he’s well staged for the future.

          Pound sand? Yes, I will be poundings in the spring in that my son and I will be redoing the flagstone patio.

          • Revo Luzione says:

            Tom, I’m all smiles reading your response. Your post was a great response to mine, even if we don’t see eye to eye on a lot of issues. That said, I do respect your choices and note that we need more men to make similar choices.

            I don’t think men have given up. We’ve just changed, adapted to modern circumstances. Giving up would mean not dating, sitting at home watching football, playing X-box, and working on the skill set required for functional alcoholism. Yes, there are men who are doing that, but there always have been those men.

            You may be right, it may be possible to have what you have, but the odds certainly are not stacked in a guy’s favor. Far from it. I don’t know what the odds are, but they’re not good. You must be about my dad’s age. He and my mother are still married & have an amazing relationship. There are a few other men of your age cohort who also are still happily married.
            But get into the next younger age cohort, and things look abysmal. It just gets worse from there. Men my age, just a bit older than your son, we survey the landscape, we crunch the data rationally as well as on a gut level, and make rational choices. Incentives matter. Markets are at least on some level rational, including the “marriage market.” Your son may indeed be well-positioned for the future, but what kind of women is he finding out there?

            Read the story again. You yourself leveled some pretty solid criticisms against the female author. I can’t judge her, because I don’t know the circumstances behind her divorce, and there are certainly some legitimate circumstances for divorce–unresolved alcoholism, abuse, etc. But certainly there is an epidemic of women who divorce simply because “they’re not happpy.” E.G. The Eat, Pray, Love phenomenon.

            Your reply back to me is essentially another refrain of “man up,” without ever really examining the other side of the marriage question–the marriagability of the average modern women, like, say the author of the story above. Would you want your son to marry a woman such as her? Again, no personal judgment about her character or anything else, just a simple statement of whether you think she’d be a good mate for your son.

            Good to chat with you, sir. Glad to see you are putting in the work, and walking the talk.

            • @Revo, I too have enjoyed chatting with you. Something that I appreciate about you is that your are direct and to the point without a lot of gobbley goop. All I would ask of you is that you not close the door on relationships you may feel are unattainable.

              I can only presume you’re much younger then I (or is it me) so that, within itself, gives you a completely different starting point in life.

              You’re right, you and I will not agree on everything but what we do agree about is that our efforts to make life better for men is part of who we are.

              Your statement “Your reply back to ……..just a simple statement of whether you think she’d be a good mate for your son.” Caused me to stop and think. Part of me wants to sound cool and say it wouldn’t matter but in truth, I would struggle with it. My struggle isn’t as much with the behavior as it is the attitude behind the behavior. I would only hope that whoever she is, that she would grow to the point that my son would be enough.

              You also have to keep in mind that how I would view her as an appropriate match for my son is different then how I would view her as a match for a buddy. I’m a dad before anything and as a dad, I am always looking out for the well being of my kids. My son-in-law is a great guy but that doesn’t mean that I don’t keep a watchful eye.

              Believe it or not, I am not as “judgmental” as you would think a conservative (yes, you are right, I am a conservative)would be. Hell, I was a hippie!!! One of my projects in college was to design a commune. I lead a conservative life but that’s not to say I’m judgmental to the point that I would discard others because of things they’ve done or the lives they lead. One of my grandsons was recently baptized and his God Father?? Gay. Oh yeah, I struggled with it but that’s all on me and my demons, so to speak. And before you and others ask “how would I feel if …..….” My oldest brother was Gay and passed away from complications due to AIDS. We were close until the end. But a I said, I am a conservative.

              One last thing, my empathy … I do need more of it when looking at men and what they’re confronted with. My wishes that more men have what I do is not that I’m putting other men down or lack total empathy but it’s like Sky diving for the first time, you want everyone to try it. People look at you like you’re nuts but they just don’t know.

              Revo, take care … I really enjoy our discussion.

    • @Revo…

      “The open relationship model, while not for the faint of heart, offers vast emotional richness and personal growth.”

      Yeah, keep mindfucking yourself. These open relationships are not about “emotional richness and personal growth.” They are largely about sex and you know damn well know it. So, be honest about it like the swingers.

      Anyhow. It’s your life. Have at it!

      • Revo Luzione says:

        How do you know, Jules? Are you projecting? Peeping through my windows?

        Your simple assertion is nothing more than that. I never implied anything about swinging, a lifestyle I’m not interested in. My connections are all long-term, soulful, and carefully selected, but you wouldn’t know that because you’re too busy making assumptions.

        • @Revo…..

          “all long-term, soulful, and carefully selected….”

          Why don’t you just get yourself a harem?

          Most “long term” relationships last about 1-2 years, except marriages. This poly jazz is just a backdoor way for you people to sleep around under the cloak of “relationships.” It’s serial monogamy, serial dating, serial sleeping around. Be man enough to call it what it is man.

          I was born in the night, but not last night.

  15. This write up seems false to me. Or maybe some parts were fabricated. Just maybe. The word whore gets thrown around so carelessly in this day and age but I think the author (and the adulterer and his wife as well) fits the description perfectly. She seemed naive but not really. She tried to make it seem like she really didn’t want to sleep with a married man “I was so attracted to him” “But it just felt so wrong”. Yeah right sis! You discussed your concern about being with a married man with said married man. What did you think he would say? Did you think he would object? Why didn’t you consult a good friend? The author intentionally got with a married man, neglecting family and friends who tried to give her sound advice. And it was such a liberating experience? Your life seems lackluster at the present and your poor (current)husband can’t seem to compete with the orgasm count of the married guy. I hope you find yourself and soon because nothing is more unfortunate than a 30+ woman and/or man who continuously fails in life. I feel sorry for the children that were and still are involved including the 4 bio 1 adopted kids from the scandalous marraige. People need to do better and stop treating marraige like it is a rollercoaster ride at an amusement park. JMO

  16. You might not regret it now but based on me reading thousands of posts of women involved in affair, you will live to regret what you did at some point

    • @Doccool….

      A lot of women SAY they regret it. However, I have my doubts. Some genuinely do. Most I do not think so, at all.

      Just like a lot of married men who say they are “sorry” for an affair when their asses are busted. It’s BS. He is just sorry he was busted.

      Too many women just like to PRETEND.

      JMO.

  17. courage the cowardly dog says:

    Yeah, I don’t think I would want anybody to know who I was if I disclosed such things as you have here. What is clear is that your paramour, his wife and you are extremely selfish people. You all had a great time at the expense of your children. Between working and fucking around the kids lost. But I don’t believe you really gave that much thought. You should apologize to your children. With no father and you divided between work and your affair they lost. In order for you to have access to his wealth that you covet he will have to divorce his wife and when she bleeds him dry there will be little left for you to enjoy and then maybe he won’t be so attractive to you since you indicated that his wealth was a source of attraction for you.

  18. It is probably true. Could be that woman Jill Di Donato

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jill-di-donato/i-was-the-other-woman_b_2115200.html

    Cheers.

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