To get what you want, you have to be willing to walk away from anything else.
This was previously published on The Male Blueprint.
I hear a lot of women today complain that there are no real men anymore. Groups of women love to get together and lament about the sad state of the male race.
Stop whining.
Could men as a whole step up their game and bring more to the table? Hell yes they could, but complaining gets you nowhere. Here’s what most people don’t accept.
The current system is perfect.
Our world operates according to the rules of supply and demand. If there is less demand, supply goes down, if there is more demand, supply goes up. Currently, men are supplying exactly as much as women are demanding. If a woman is making most of the money, taking care of the kids and cleaning the house while allowing her man to sit on the couch all day, he is doing exactly what she is demanding of him. Men will only supply what you demand. Conversely, if you challenge your man to become the man you desire and dream about, he or someone else will step into that role and you will be met by the man you really want, not just the man you keep settling for.
I want to say this again because it’s so important. The current system of supply and demand in male-female relationships is perfect, it’s exactly where it should be. Ladies, if you really want men to step up and become the real men you talk about, you must demand it. I’m not saying ask for it, I’m not saying hope for it, I’m saying demand it. What does that mean? It means you don’t settle for anything less. It means if you aren’t satisfied, you walk away. Men will rise up and meet your challenge, I promise, it’s what we do best. We love challenges. We love it when women make us step up and work. We love to do work.
My man doesn’t like to work, he’s not going to step up, he’s too lazy.
Do you know why he’s lazy? He’s lazy because you aren’t demanding more than what he’s giving you. If you were, you would have left him. He’s lazy because you are rewarding his laziness with a relationship.
I understand I should demand the perfect man but what if I don’t believe I’m the perfect woman?
This seems like a catch-22, I understand. What we have to remember is most of what makes us confident, attractive and desirable is what we believe, not what we might consider to be “the facts.” To become confident, you must believe you are confident. How do you believe you are confident if you aren’t confident? You fake it until you make it. In this case, you demand the man you want and what will happen is your brain will start believing that you are the confident, attractive, desirable woman who would demand such a man. At first you faked it, then you start to become it. It all starts with a demand.
What if my demands are so high that I can’t find men to date?
If you do this right, you will have men lining up at your door. It seems counter-intuitive, but you have to understand how much men enjoy challenge. There is nothing sexier than a woman who has the confidence to call us out and challenge us to rise up. The part that you don’t like is the hardest thing about all this. You must be willing you walk away if you aren’t getting what you want. I will say this five more times because it’s that important.
You must be willing to walk away.
You must be willing to walk away.
You must be willing to walk away.
You must be willing to walk away.
You must be willing to walk away.
The moment you walk away and draw that line is the moment you let the universe know it’s time to send you a better man than what you are currently used to. You will get it, but only if you are willing to walk away from anything less.
What if I’m single, do I still walk away if I’m not satisfied?
Hell yes. Don’t waste your time talking to men who are less than what you want. If you find yourself on a date or talking to a man of this lower caliber, challenge him. Be honest and direct. “I was initially attracted to you but since you can’t talk to me for 10 seconds without looking around the bar, I’ve lost interest. Good bye.” Then walk away. Guess what happens to that man after that? He changes. He may not come back and thank you, but he’ll remember that conversation for the rest of his life. When women give direct and honest feedback to men it gets burned in our brains forever and ever. And the best part about all this? You get to do what you’ve always wanted to do—train men to be the way you want! Most women “train” men through nagging or complaining, but now that you’ve learned a method that actually works, you can change the world one man at a time.
Don’t ask for it, don’t hope for it, demand it.
Read more by Dave Booda: The Secret to an Amazing Hook Up
Image of women walking away courtesy of Shutterstock
About Dave Booda
I am wondering how an article asking women to change would go down?
Rewarding bad behaviour is a bad idea, I agree. If someone is being lazy and not helping, then continuing to reward them won’t help. But it’s not always that simple, it could be that they are highly stressed, depressed, unfit, aren’t helping out because they get criticized every time they do, etc. I’d exhaust other methods before simply leaving someone over lazyness.
Demanding a better person without also changing yourself to be that better person will probably end up with that person being alone. You have to have something attractive in order to attract someone else. You’re competing for the affections of someone against other people, others who can be less or more attractive than you and if you are too picky you will reduce the number of potential mates considerably making it harder to find a match.
The best advice I can give is to be positive and surround yourself with positive people. Praise, compliment, positively encourage your mate into changing WITH YOU not FOR YOU. If they are lazy, find out why…it could be a simple fix. Ensure you aren’t expecting too much, we are human after-all!
Well said. My first thought on reading this was “Men should do the same… and in fact, they are. They’re expecting better of women than they’re getting, and they’ve expressing this displeasure by staying out of the dating and relationships seem.”
Women should take a good hard look at themselves and consider why they think they deserve a ‘better man.’ What have you got to offer in return, ladies?
There’s just so much wrong with this. I can see where you’re coming from, and ever where you were going. But you managed to end up in “Men are lazy children who would do nothing if it weren’t for women” territory.
Alternate hypothesis: Complaints about the lack of “real men” are BS and you could hear the same about women if you went down to the local pub.
@Peter Houlihan: “Complaints about the lack of “real men” are BS and you could hear the same about women if you went down to the local pub.”
Oh-so-true.
This article is “pub material”, whining and blaming that you could hear anywhere.
I’m used to expect more from the GMP…
Should I demand it?!?
Whenever I read an article like this (and there is some good advice in it) , I have to ask “How exactly does this make men good”. This is GMP afterall.
So basically the author took a problem with women (that women complain about men yet are unwilling to leave the relationships they are unsatisfied with), and turned it into a problem with men (that men are.. I dunno, lazy and unmotivated except by threats that their woman will leave?).
We could also just take all the gendering BS out of this and say: If you aren’t happy, express what you want and be willing to leave if the relationship isn’t working for you.
@Drew: “If you aren’t happy, express what you want and be willing to leave if the relationship isn’t working for you.”
YES!
That is the gist of the article and – of course – it’s true only if applied to BOTH genders equally.
“There is nothing sexier than a woman who has the confidence to call us out and challenge us to rise up.”
False.
There’s nothing sexier than a woman that has that confidence AND is willing to stand alongside a man that takes charge in becoming a better boyfriend, spouse, lover, and partner — to support him in his efforts, and to be encouraging and honest as he does so.
A woman that bails after throwing a jab at his ego, emasculating him and leaving him in his own ashes, is operating on a socially-acceptable form of cruelty that I’ve never understood.
((…a woman that takes charge in …..))
Supporting, encouraging her honestly is one thing, being told what to be & how to behave, act,watch, hangout with,dress,eat,… etc!! Is another thing miss m@ !!!
Although being a partner in a relationship involves all these things & more, the idea of over looking all the differences between herself & her chosen so called perfect man in the beginning of the relationship((hoping to change & train him later)) by demanding, nagging, manipulating her so called perfect man is not only cruel, it’s down right dishonest, hypocritical, mean spir
I don’t know way my last comment got changed???
But let met try & rewrite it again & hopefully it will be as I sent it
((..a woman that takes charge in..))
Supporting & encouraging her honestly is one thing, being told what to be & how to behave & act, what to watch, who to hangout with, what to eat & dress,…. is another thing miss m@ !!!
Although being in a relationship involves all these things & more , the socially acceptable behaviour of women in which they ignore all the differences between themselves & the so called perfect man at the beginning of
time
Not sure if we’re aligning here, NBI. And P.S., I’m a Mister.
Support and encouragement are absolutely non-negotiable on both parties. Where both men and women can exhibit love — and, yes, sexiness — is by standing alongside his/her partner as they walk through the stages that allow them to learn how to love one another in tangible, effective ways.
This only prepares a couple for the inevitable shot to the gut each will experience over the longevity of a relationship, whether it’s one forgetting the other’s birthday or together discovering their infertility.
That is not what I wrote & sent! !!!
This site & it’s constant refreshing, no correction or erasing abilities is very frustrating.
No worries.
Best suggestion — write out your comment in an email, a Word document, etc. and then cut n’ paste into the comment field if the refreshing is bugging ya.
Oh, I forgot: this article reminds me of the good old Hugo Schwytzer (women are right and saintly, men are faulty and to blame, etc…).
But Hugo was a pleasure to read (brilliant, cultured, thoughtful), even when I disagreed with him (most of the time), while this article is just cliché and annoying.
Then why did you read it to the end?
I find myself agreeing with the detractors more than the supporters of this article, and I think it has to do with the notion of “demand.”
One has the “right” to set whatever standards one sees fit for a significant other. No arguments. But from this the author seems to derive the notion that since one has the right to set standards one has a right to have those standards met. This is still not an entirely problematic statement depending on how “right to” is defined since I would argue that everyone deserves to have a fulfilling relationship.
Where the problem arises is in the author’s assertion that an individual has the right to demand (using rather brutal behavior modification via social ostracism) that relationship needs be met from an individual or an aggregated group of individuals (very clear in the demand from “your man” or “men” notion throughout his article). This is where definitions of “right to” and “deserve” come in to play. Everyone has the right to a fulfilling relationship but everyone also has the right to not have their personhood violated. It might be otherwise, but the wording and constructing of this article seems to suggest that women can freely violate a man’s personhood if he is not giving her what she wants, and she will be perfectly in the right.
Also, the idea that one should just walk away (as opposed to negotiate, work-through, experiment etc.) seems to hint at a favorite MRA notion of “male disposability.” Though I am not normally one to quote or rely on the MRM’s set of tools (in really any way actually) it seems rather fitting, as in:
“If this man isn’t working for you, pitch him in a trash can and get a new one! They are all essentially interchangeable anyway. It’s not like they feel emotion, attachment, fear, ambition, or insecurity like normal people. They can’t be bargained with or worked with, they never grow or change.”
For big ticket items as in “my partner refuses to give up illegal drugs despite a near crippling addiction” or “my partner is a constant resource leech refusing to do anything or even try anything to add to the relationship in any capacity or timeframe” the above might not be bad. In truly toxic or tragically unfulfilling situations the above, as brutal as it is, might be needed for either/any gender. But the way the article is written it sounds like even a frivolous or minor character flaw might be enough to ditch someone. If this is the case, did you even really “love” the person in the first place?
It’s interesting how you interpreted this, I never saw it from that angle. To me the demand is actually the woman demanding the kind of relationship she wants, not her demanding that the man change. I can see where this may be confusing though.
Women need to realize that any guy she regards as entirely suited in every way will have dozens of younger, hotter women than her lining up for.
In sane, traditional societies, this is taught. In America, for some reason, it is kept secret.
Women just don’t get it! It is truly as if they are really stupid.
They throw themselves at these men and these guys have harems. The problem is women have a very narrow perspective on what men are deemed attractive. Most women find only a few men attractive. Only a few. So, you have the same women chasing after the same few men.
It starts in college and high school. Most women are going to toss 50% of the men they NEVER meet based on their strict ( and very limiting) perception of attractiveness. Even women who are unattractive think they are entitiled to these uber attractive men! The gall!
What happens is the women will “settle.” But, this is a disaster, especially for the husband. He is going to be treated badly and certainly no where near how should would have treated the man whom she really desires to be with. Or she will remain single as “settling” is repugnant. I find this whole process to be confined to largely well-educated professional women by the way. There are growing numbers of these women.
I am a well educated man (two Masters degrees in Econ & Finance) and 3 yrs toward PhD. I am also a high status man who has done well in life. I run into the women I described above quite frequently. Usually, they are 30 yrs and older and very intelligent. Most of them have had a lot of sex partners too. Honestly, while I love the intelligence and intellectual stimulation these women provide, I find them to be unappealing. Sexually, they tend to be MORE adventurous. That is a good thing.
So, I think most men should eschew marriage and long term relationships. Unless, of course, you are one of these uber attracrtive men that women throw themselves after. You can treat them like dirt and they will always treat you like a king. Sex. No problem. Rarely will you hear, “not tonight”, “I’m tired”, blah blah blah. Why? Because she knows, you can get it elsewhere with ease.
Well, jeez, I’ve met tons of guys who have very little to offer, yet they only pursue the most attractive women, then are bitter because those women won’t date them. Only wanting to date people you are attracted to is not a phenomenon confined to women. I don’t see a lot of guys wanting to settle for women who aren’t attractive.
Sure, but there’s also a massive deficiency in both sexes regarding what people REALLY want. Most men and women define their desires by what others desire — it’s a natural course of action, right? You see others in a successful marriage/relationship/sexual encounter and want to emulate that.
Discovering what we all individually need takes a lot of time — and an even greater amount of resistance to the societal pressure to “date up”. I actually admire the men and women that are willing to eschew the need to find someone that is universally attractive (physically) in order to meet someone that will help them grow as a human through encouragement, honesty, respect, and love.
@me@…I do not go after the women who are “universally’ attractive. In my world, 80% of all women between the age 18-60 are attractive. Obviously, many are married/taken or lesbian, but when I see them, I view them as attractive.
As a rule I avoid these ultra attractive women. I will allow the other men to battle over them….
I love women of all types, shades, colors, races,..etc. They are all beautiful in my world. The differences in skin, hair, size, feel, softness…are all things that appeal to me. After the initial physical appeal, I like the smile, personality, intelligence, passion, and zest for life about a woman.
How much hair she has on her arms/legs or other superficial crap like that matters very little to me. Yes, she must have good hygiene of course.
I like to keep it simple.
@Sarah…The difference is most men view MOST women as attractive enough to date.
Most women view MOST other women as unattractive. Weird but true. Most women view themselves as a 9-10 while other women are viewed as a 5-6.
When you say these men have little to offer, what do you mean? Material? Careers?
Just asking.
I’m not sure I agree that men in general view most women as attractive enough to date. I’m no hottie, and I’ve certainly never had guys flocking around me. But be that as it may, what do I mean by mn who have little to offer. I’m talking about guys who are physically unattractive, overweight, have no interesting hobbies or passions in life, can’t hold a conversation if their life depended on it, and dress like slobs. I’m not talking about money although I will not deny that many women like guys with money. But I live in Silicon Valley and I know a lot of “geeky” guys who are single even though they have good jobs making decent money and huge 401k accounts (because they never spend money on anything). Many of them are my friends so I don’t mean to be harsh. But I’ve notced that the hopelessly single guys all want to date supermodels. The ones who are less picky manage to find girlfriends, often geeky girls who are perfectly nice women and reasonaly attractive but not hotties. Meanwhile the other guys are pushing 40, or 50, have never had a real girlfriend, yet when you talk to them, they don’t want to settle for anything less than a hot girl in her 20′s who also has an awesome personality, can cook, loves kids, doesn’t demand expensive dates (geeks can be stingy) and will tolerate their geekiness. That just ain’t gonna happen. It’s just like a 38 year old professional woman who is a little overweight, works all the time, and has an abrasive personality, but is still holding out hope to marry a CEO.
Perhaps it is a California thing with the men.
“I’m talking about guys who are physically unattractive, overweight, have no interesting hobbies or passions in life, can’t hold a conversation if their life depended on it, and dress like slobs.”
This is pretty horrible if a guy cannot meet these very very minimal requirements. I have to agree with you. I would not bother either!
Men today do not take a lot of pride in their attire. Honestly, very few men really know how to dress. Frankly, most have very boring dress. Of all men, the gay men dress the best. Coming from a pretty masculine hetero male, this is pretty hard for me to admit. But it IS the truth.
Btw, if a guy has $$$$$, he can get the hot girl in her 20s. If an 82 yr old George Soros can get a 40 yr old with $$$$, these 40, 50 yr olds can get the hot 20 somethings too. But, it WILL be temporary.
OKCupid did a study which showed men generally rate women’s attractiveness on a bell curve; whereas, women rate men INCREDIBLY harshly with more than half of all men being rated as unattractive.
Yeah. I read somewhere (don’t have a source, so take it for what it is) that women tended to rate 80% of men as bellow average in attractiveness.
Correct. Most women find only a FEW men attractive.
I think this is at the root of the frustration(s) for a lot of women. They cannot let go of that idealized view of the man of their dreams.
LOL. I hear not tonight dear all the time, when it comes to communication which is my sex/connection language. LOL. No dear, not tonight I’m stress, I’m tired and had a rough day, I’ve a headache but hey lets go have sex. Take care of me while I don’t desire to take care of you. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. We all are idiots, both male and female.
While I think women have total responsibility in their own behavior in what they accept from men, I am left with the impression that apparently, what men do, what kind of men they are, is all women’s responsibility. Something about that seems a little off.
Let me explain. Take the very stereotypical situation where a woman is really into a man, sleeps with him, then wonders why he doesn’t take her seriously. I really believe that a lot of women would save themselves some heartache if they didn’t fall pressure to their own immediate desires (sex) in favor of giving a man the time to show you who he is. I think that women should wait even when a man is pressuring her. On the same token, I wish more men took persona responsibility in treating a woman with respect and not just trying to get into a woman’s pants just because he is a “guy”.
I don’t like the premise that it’s women’s “fault” if men aren’t stepping up to the plate. While I acknowledge that if women didn’t permit bad behavior, less men would do it. But this totally ignores the responsibility men have to themselves and their son’s and daughters in teaching that a man lives by his own code of ethics independent of what a woman may decide. This article, while I appreciate the author’s general goal, seems to play undue responsibility on women for the way men behave.
On the flipside making a man wait too long could leave him feeling like she isn’t taking him seriously, guess it’s all a fun game of trying to find balance, find the right partner, someone you can trust and who will grow with you, not for you.
It’s the man’s responsibility mostly for the actions described in the article, there is some truth to the enabling by rewarding bad behaviour though. If you can get a partner whilst treating that gender like shit then why would they change? Treating them like shit seems to work for them so changing could be seen as changing what works.
I agree with you but there are lot of men and woman who have stood by their them and have initiate some part of themselves to show the other person that they desire and want them. Communication is important and i understand people should be able to express what the problem is and it up to the person if they want to fix it.
There are a lot of game players out there who all they want to do is control you and manipulate your thinking that you don’t deserve to be appreciated or worthless. The real people who are putting their time and energy trying to make it work are unhappy because they feel this is how it should be put up or shut up. That is not fair to anybody. I
I agree with the article men and woman both have a part in the relationship whether it grows or not; but you do have to stand your ground if the needs are not met from both people. You should leave because you have tried to give and be reasonable to the other person needs. People need to stop playing games because it can go so far until the person that was their get tired of waiting until you get it.
It is weird that a lot of people give their all to bs then give it to the person who is showing them they appreciate them. Men and woman should walk away why keep being unhappy when you could be with someone who they are willing to contribute and not pussy foot around.
First it not harsh but dont be cruel and attach a person hood but let them no that they behavior is unaceptable and given with time it has not change then they deserve to leave. The leaving parts is to allow that person to decide for themselves what they have and make them grow up. I have a lot of male and female friend who have left there man or woman left them only to come back and married that person. I had a guy friend tell me that people need a kick in the but to grow up and it good to make them miss you because it just saying i am not going to tolerate this mess.
@Erin…Let me state categorically that women are NOT responsible for the behavior or misbehavior of men. We men are totally responsible for our own behavior.
“Take the very stereotypical situation where a woman is really into a man, sleeps with him, then wonders why he doesn’t take her seriously.”
Now, I ask: just why does the man need to take her seriously? Just because of sex? He should respect her, obviously. But, what is this talk about being taken seriously ? I am baffled here. It’s not like she just gave him $10 mil dollars. She was the one into him. That does not mean he HAS to be into her. What am I missing here?
Please help me understand. Seriously.
Jules, let me ask you this first and then I will do my best to to explain what I mean.
Let’s say there is a man who is very interested in a woman. She likes him but she isn’t really “into” him. Let’s say he asks her out to dinner and she accepts, knowing that she really isn’t into him but thinks he’s nice enough to go out to dinner with. He wants to impress her and takes her out to a nice restaurant. They have a pretty nice time, They talk, they laugh, all is well. It doesn’t change her opinion of him but she liked the time they had together nonetheless. He pays for the date and he drops her off going their seperate ways. She had fun but she doesn’t take him too seirously. But she knew that going in and let him pay for dinner regardless. He calls her the next day to see if she wants to go out again and she isn’t interested at all. She got what she wanted. A nice meal and some attention. She didn’t make any promises to him but he didn’t exactly disuede him either. What do you think of the actions of such a woman? Do you think she was perfectly reasonable? That she had no responsbility in the situation? Do you think she treated that men well?
So no leading on? I think it’s just one of those situations that come up in dating, annoying for the one who wants more but can we really expect or demand more? People need to communicate what they want beforehand but can you blame either? I don’t think so. Is it annoying? Fuck yeah, is it using him? no. I’d hope people would discuss things n set limits, or at least be OPEN to seeing where it goes without making a decision upfront but that’s a dream more than anything.
It’s also probably why I doubt I could ever date someone without wanting them, I’ve had one experience where she liked me more but I did tell her we’d see how it goes and it was my first experience. I felt like a royal prick because I didn’t feel the same way about her, I thought I did but these were all new feelings to me…seeing her cry made me feel like a monster and I couldn’t do that to someone again. I hated myself for quite a while after because we had already had sex, both our first times, but I realized after that I wasn’t into her as much as she was into me and it didn’t work out. Didn’t help that I went from extremely little contact with people for years to having sex with someone very quickly, it freaked me out and I couldn’t handle it. I have some responsibility, she has some, I never promised anything more with her but I guess in the dating game these things happen. I at least now can identify my feelings better but I guess heartbreak can happen with no ill intention at all.
In the scenario of a man having sex with a woman, what’s the analog to the money spent on the dinner in the “went out with a guy who’s ‘just a friend’” scenario?
In the date scenario he spent money on her, there was a clear transfer of resources occurring. He gave up something to spend time with her.
You can’t say that with the sex scenario. Neither of them “gave up” anything in order to have sex with the other. (at least, nothing that the other partner didn’t *also* give up, such as time spent)
Well, women do sometimes feel like we “give up” something by having sex, in the sense of letting a man have access to our bodies, which we’ve been raised believing we should protect … We may feel used…. We may feel like here is one more guy added to our “number” which we are ashamed about later. I’m not saying that’s the right attitude to have necessarily, just pointing put that the attitude exists, and certainly I’ve experienced those feelings myself at times in the past. It can feel quite degrading to have had sex with a guy thinking that it “means” something, I.e. that he really cares, that you have an emotional connection and all that, even if you don’t expect a long term commitment, but then you discover it didn’t mean squat to him, you were just an available pussy and he really couldn’t care less about you. I think that’s why a lot of women have a bad reaction when they learn about PUA techniques and so on. We imagine accidentally falling for guys who are really hideous people on the inside, if you know what I mean, and being hurt by the experience. That’s the fear anyway. So, yeah, I’m with Erin on this one, I think most women are in general better off waiting to have sex and not hopping into bed with every guy who gets are pulse racing. I’m not speaking for everyone, of course, there are women who enjoy casual sex and one night stands. I’ve been there, done that, no longer interested.
“Well, women do sometimes feel like we “give up” something by having sex, in the sense of letting a man have access to our bodies, which we’ve been raised believing we should protect … We may feel used…. We may feel like here is one more guy added to our “number” which we are ashamed about later.”
So, in other words, sex with men is toxic, parasitic in that in order to engage in it, you as a woman have to “give up” something. Not only that, but while you, as a woman, are more than enough; he, as a man, has to bring something besides just himself to the table, some other resource.
No, sorry. That’s still BS. If you feel you “lose” something by engaging in sex with another person, that’s your psychological hangup and not even remotely his fault.
By all means, wait to have sex, that is certainly your right. However, it’s high time women understood that just like men aren’t “entitled” to sex, women aren’t “entitled” to a relationship.
I didn’t say that there has to be a capital-R “relationship” but if you realize later on than the man you thought might, I don’t know, have at least liked you and thought you were a cool enough person to spend some time with, actually didn’t give a sh!t about you and just saw you as a warm body with a pulse, yes, that feels pretty crappy. If you don’t understand that, I don’t think I can explain it any better.
I can understand that, and that it sucks. What I’m saying is, the fact that you feel that way… is not the guy’s fault. You are responsible for your own emotions. If you engaged in sex with the assumption that there would be more, which he never promised, then that is on you. You got out of the sex act the exact same thing that he did: Sex. He didn’t “take” anything from you.
I get what you’re saying but depending on the circumstances, I think it can be a little disingenuous to say “well, I never promised a relationship/further contact/follow up phone call, I’m not responsible for her/his hurt feelings.” You can create expectations from your behavior.
Personal example: when I was 22, just graduated from college, and I’d only had one prior relationship, I met a friend of my roommate who was about 10 years older and VERY into me. Or so it seemed. For a couple weeks, he really pursued me. I wasn’t that attracted to him at first, but the attention was flattering. One night a group of us went out drinking, I had too much to drink, he was around me the whole night, we eventually started making out, and… Well you know the story! So the next day, he told me he had a great time and left. I was moving to another city (not too far away) to start grad school in a couple weeks. I didn’t expect a Relationship but he had been acting like I was the cat’s meow and the most attractive woman he’d ever met, and I rarely got that kind of attention from men. So I was kind of surprised I didn’t hear from him. But whatever, chalked it up to experience, felt a bit embarrassed about the whole thing as it was out of character for me, but oh well.
He ended up calling me over a YEAR later and wanted to see me again. Seriously? A year? He told me I was amazing blah blah blah. I was like, sorry buddy, that ship has sailed.
Anyway, I wasn’t really upset about not getting a relationship out of the deal, I was just kind of hurt and confused that he had really acted like he liked me and then he fell into a black hole after having sex with me once. It made me think, was he lying to me the whole time? Was the sex terrible? Etc. did he explicitly promise me anything? No, but he created an expectation from his behavior and attitude toward me that he really liked me, and yet clearly he didn’t actually care that much.
Yet more evidence that the jerks always get laid I suppose.
Obviously, this older and more experienced man sweet talked you into sex. Nothing else Sarah. Also, alcohol was involved as well.
I am not surprised he called you for Round 2. Again, he was interested in SEX Sarah.
This isn’t an example of ‘jerks get laid’ because he gave Sarah every indication that he was a nice guy. He wasn’t insulting or negging her, he treated her with complete respect prior to sex, and she had no knowledge that he was a player. In her eyes, she slept with a nice guy. It just seems so weird to me. Jerks have to act like nice guys (talking sweet) to get laid, but nice guys have to act like jerks (PUAs) to get laid? So the key to getting laid is not being yourself? Tha fuck?
Also, she didn’t want a relationship (she stated that), just a little respect. Wanting a little respect is not the same as wanting a relationship. Just a follow up phone call to say he had a great time, maybe meeting up one more time before she left for school, some common courtesy.
@Jules , yeah I get it, and I figured it out at the time, even at age 22. I wasn’t even really that upset about it until he called me a year later for a booty call – obviously, he thought I had no standards whatsoever. Oh well live & learn
It just seems so weird to me. Jerks have to act like nice guys (talking sweet) to get laid, but nice guys have to act like jerks (PUAs) to get laid? So the key to getting laid is not being yourself? Tha fuck?
It’s a matter of being one or the other and having no success while at the same time seeing those who fit the bill of the other be successful.
Grass is greener on the other side?
Yes, if she wanted a relationship or a friends with benefits deal, she should have said something or stated that she wasn’t into one night things. BUT, by that logic, he was half wrong because he also didn’t indicate that he just wanted sex. He should also have indicated that he was going to cut off communication after sex and that this was a hook up/possible booty call situation. Neither party communicated here. It’s the same with friend zone relationships. If a guy wants sex, he needs to give some indication of that (as much as he feels led on by the girl, she could also feel led on by him if friendship is important to her). If a girl wants a friendship, she should give some indication of that (although, in most cases I’ve seen, the girl does say things like ‘you’re such a good friend’ and even talks to the guy about her outside love interest/s).
@Sarah…While I understand your position, it seems like a case of asymmetric information. You knew how you felt but he did not. He was after sex but you wanted more.
Did you ever communicate to the man you wanted a relationship? Did you ever communicate to the man you wanted this to be anything other than sex? Did you ever say you did not believe in casual sex? We are all adults and I do not understand why we do not believe in communicating..
i was 22, now I know better. I assume men want nothing other than sex, unless presented with clear evidence to the contrary.
I’d assume that some want sex, some want sex + love, some don’t want sex at all. Basically, don’t make assumptions and get to know each potential date. Assuming they want nothing but sex is misandrous and quite frankly highly insulting, it’s as stupid as assuming all women just want to take your money, cheat on you, get pregnant (even against your will), etc.
If you want clear evidence, goto a funeral of a wife and see how much the husband cries, if you think that’s all because his source of sex is gone then you’d be sadly mistaken.
I have plenty of female friends, some I’d like to have sex and a relationship, others I don’t. Sex isn’t the end-all, be-all of a man’s existence.
I think you know the answer to that question 8ball.
Although with a simple model, I think the author is correct in outlining the basic economies of life interactions – the miss is on the playing down of negotiations as a critical component of fair trade social agreements. If you up and leave every time you don’t get exactly get what you want, you’ll need a new pair of shoes every week.
Mick Jagger said it best: “But if you try sometimes you just might find
You get what you need”
“I think you know the answer to that question 8ball.”
I certainly do, and the answer is “there isn’t one.”
A person *buying* dinner for another and two people engaging in sex *together* are two completely separate situations and not even remotely comparable.
Unless one means to suggest that one is a prostitute, then perhaps they are. But remember, I didn’t make the comparison.
8ball, a woman who is interested in a man, lets her physical feelings play out with him, only to come and find that he had sex, enjoyed himself, and doesn’t want her for anything else, will infact feel like she gave up something. And I am not talking about “gave up sex”, in some outdated purtanical idealogy. She will feel like she gave something much more personal and intimate up to him that he didn’t respect.
“She will feel like she gave something much more personal and intimate up to him that he didn’t respect.”
Question for you: If the man in questions was someone you just wanted to have sex with, would you view it as “something much more personal and intimate?” It was still sex.
I would think long and hard about that man’s expectations and if he was looking for more from me then just sex. My responsibility wouldn’t be just to myself and what I wanted when it comes to an interaction with another individual. It wouldn’t be right for me to only think of myself even if I have no commitment to this other person. Since I an engaging in an interaction with them, the right thing to do, the respectful thing to do, is to evaluate both our needs and where we are and if we are different wave lengths and take responsibility for that.
And just to add, I have been in situations where I knew the man wanted more from me and I made the choice to forgo my own pleasure (sometimes sexual and sometimes regarding other things like flattering attention and being spoiled with nice dinners and gifts which I knew would have been the out come if I stuck around) out of respect for him so that I didn’t lead him on or waste his time just because I wanted to feel good all for myself. I had a responsbility to myself and to him to have some integrity and think about how my actions reflect and affect another human being.
So basically the woman in question has entitlement and is hurt because the relationship didn’t go her way? He enjoyed it, why the focus on him enjoying sex? Does she enjoy the sex too?
I think you sound pretty cruel here Archy. What is entitled about a woman who is really interested in a man she wishes things to go further with?
The reality is that even today, there are certain things that men can take advantage of with women and things women can take advantage of with men. In general, both genders don’t want to be used for something base and shallow. And yes, having sex with someone you barely know and probably don’t want to get to know any further , while may be biological, is certainly shallow.
You totally missed my point that for a lot of women, an orgasm alone isn’t enough to make them happy. If she likes a man, she will probably be open and given and vulnerable with her body. If he is only viewing it as a fun party for himself and not thinking about what space she is in, that’s not fair. But I know plenty of men justify themselves in this regard because they don’t understand a very simple and basic dynamic that is common for most heterosexual single women. That they don’t want to be used for sex and the realty is that despite all the gender equality we have today, women are still more vulnerable for being used for sex just like men are still more vulnerable for being used for their money.
I have the personal integrity to not use a man for his money. I would hope that more men would have more personal integrity to not use a woman for sex and then tell himself it was okay because she had a good time too. For plenty of women, they aren’t just looking for a good time. Of course, there are cases when both sides totally agree that ti’s just going to be about sex. I am not talking about those situations.
The woman has sex with the EXPECTATION that more will happen? and if it doesn’t, she feels used, cheated, etc. Unless they’re specifically talked about dating more, what right does SHE have to expect more when that type of relationship hasn’t been discussed? Cruel is placing the fault on the man because she didn’t discuss her needs upfront. Yeah he’s also at fault for not saying he only wanted sex.
The fact you see these casual flings as men getting more out of the deal than the woman does says quite a bit, Erin. It appears to be an attempt to paint men in this case as users, and women as helpless victims who can’t make a decision for themselves. These women made the choice to have sex with the man, they benefit from the intimacy etc, it’s not his fault if she wants more but didn’t speak up about it. Casual sex is common enough now that you can’t rely on any expectation of a relationship arrising from casual sex.
Basically, these women need to take responsibility for their actions and whilst they may feel cheated, used, I highly doubt that’s truly what is going on in many situations. If he’s led you on then yeah you have the right to feel used but if it’s just casual sex with no promises, then you can feel hurt all you want but it’s not really his fault. You want more? You have to communicate it. This whole “she’s more vulnerable with her body” bullshit is exactly that, just an attempt to paint women as the victim here. “Fun party for himself” ? Maybe women need to ask themselves why they aren’t enjoying the sex then, are they going into with expectations of a relationship and get hurt because they didn’t tell the guy?
“I think you sound pretty cruel here Archy. What is entitled about a woman who is really interested in a man she wishes things to go further with? ”
Simple answer, it’s not that she’s interested in a man, it’s being interested, wanting more, sleeping with the guy who WITHOUT saying what you want and he hasn’t said anything about a future AND THEN getting mad about it. Expecting a relationship to occur without any discussion of it, just sex, that is the entitlement. Hoping one occurs ISN’T entitlement however, hope that clears it up.
@Erin
“8ball, a woman who is interested in a man, lets her physical feelings play out with him, only to come and find that he had sex, enjoyed himself, and doesn’t want her for anything else, will infact feel like she gave up something. And I am not talking about “gave up sex”, in some outdated purtanical idealogy.”
No, that is exactly what you are talking about. Women need to stop “assuming” a relationship will occur. The default setting for these types of interactions should be “no relationship forthcoming.” because unless something has been discussed beforehand, nobody is entitled to anything else. (same as men need to realize that sex won’t neccesarily follow from a friendship either)
to paraphrase “men aren’t vending machines that you can drop ‘sex tokens’ into have a relationship pop out.”
That’s a good point and it’s why I would argue many women might want to consider being more discriminating about who they sleep with, unless they actually want to have totally casual sex with guys who don’t really care about them one way or the other (some women are okay with that, I don’t judge anyone).
8ball, I think I have previously talked about the responsbility that I believe women have when interacting with men they like and sex. I infact believe too many women jump into sex too soon and don’t give a man the oppurtunity to prove if he is really worth it. But women are human beings and sometimes their feelings get the best of them and if they really like a guy, they sometimes make the mistake of sleeping with him too soon. This is somethign I believe a lot of women should be careful about and should do their hardest not to fall trap too. Especially because in our culture, women still pay a bigger price for their sexuality then men do.
But I also look at the behavior of men. And frankly, I am tired of seeing guys justify pursuing and charming and seducing women for sexual pleasure and then when they get what they want, throw their palms up and claim they have no responsibility to anything. Infact, I see a huge dirth in the lack of accountability men really seem to not want to take in our society and I personally find it trouble some. That could be a whole other discussion. The reality is that very very few men are so honest with women that they say, “Hey, you’re hot, I just want to have sex and probably won’t feel like even talking to you ever again. You good with that?” No, most men don’t do that. They walk a thin line and charm women or seduce them and make them believe that woman is exciting and special to him when she is really just a notch on his belt.
So seperate from what I think women should do, which is not sleep with men right away, I think men hold responsbility as well regarding their actions here. Frankly, I am tired of hearing how responsible women are for everything while men can just walk around banging anything they want and having no responsbility for it. The double standard is still alive and well today. Let me say this again so there is no mistake. I totally agree and believe that women should not sleep with men right away and that is a mistake a lot of women make. But I also think that men need to have more integrity and honesty in their intentions and start thinking about how their choices affect others . Very rarely are men so honest that they just outright tell a woman that all they want to do is sleep with her. I want to see men take more accountability for themselves and others and not just take the advantages where they can and take pleasure from other people just for themselves.
Frankly, I think the dating world is totally imbalanced. There are way too many women sleeping with guys that have done nothing to earn it and there are way too many guys that feel entitled to sex without commitment and personal responsbility to treat a nother human being with respect. Sorry, but just because you gave a woman an orgasm and a good time doesn’t mean you treated her well.
” There are way too many women sleeping with guys that have done nothing to earn it ”
Really? And what exactly constitutes “earning it”? Hmm? Planning fun activities? Paying for dinner? Buying her shiney things?
This is what I’M sick of. A man by himself is never good enough, a man’s sexuality is never good enogh. In fact a man’s sexuality is the exact opposite, when a man has sex with a woman, he’s actually taking something from her- like a parasite, so he has to compensate for that in other ways.
No. That’s bullshit. I’m tired of the double standard that *women* have where they are perfect all on their own and all they have to do is just show up. That any man should be lucky and grateful just to be able to spend time in their presence, let alone anything else.
Do you have any idea how exhausting that is? to know that you are never going to be good enough?
Yeah the idea of earning is it a bit insulting…Although she may mean something different to what we are thinking. I guess even women have to earn sex, intimacy, love, relationships from men too by showing they’re a decent person, attractive, this or that.
So for the guys she’s talking about the women have already earned it by being attractive physically, mentally, whatever and for the women the bar could be higher so the men have to jump through more hoops or tick off different checkboxes. What troubles me the most is the idea of women giving sex to men instead of both sharing sex, it acts like men’s sexuality is worth far less and quite frankly I find that insulting. If a man n a woman have some casual sex then they both shared their sexuality, she didn’t give him her sexuality, if she expects more than what was offered and not discussed or agreed upon then wouldn’t she be entitled and dispectful of him??
“. What troubles me the most is the idea of women giving sex to men instead of both sharing sex, it acts like men’s sexuality is worth far less and quite frankly I find that insulting. If a man n a woman have some casual sex then they both shared their sexuality, she didn’t give him her sexuality, if she expects more than what was offered and not discussed or agreed upon then wouldn’t she be entitled and dispectful of him??”
This. This is what I’ve been saying.
How do women pay a bigger price for their sexuality?
“The reality is that very very few men are so honest with women that they say, “Hey, you’re hot, I just want to have sex and probably won’t feel like even talking to you ever again. You good with that?” No, most men don’t do that.”
Do you mean on first meeting them? If so then it would rarely/if ever work. Even saying Hey, you’re hot/attractive/whatever, I’d like to have a relationship/date and see how it goes probably wouldn’t go down well. Telling a woman straight away you want to have sex with them would probably get a shitload of women saying men are harassing them. I’m sure very very few women are saying they want X type of relationship and don’t want to be just a one time thing.
“Frankly, I am tired of hearing how responsible women are for everything while men can just walk around banging anything they want and having no responsibility for it.”
Who is saying men have no responsibility? I see plenty of men n women say they are responsible on a wide range of issues, including this. I regularly see attempts however to cast the men in a negative light n act like women are the victim of some evil deed but I guess it depends on what you or I define as seducing. To me it’d be wining n dining, but no promises of any type of relationship, more of a see what happens kind of deal where some will end up sleeping together and there is no implied future of relationship. If the guy is saying he’ll call and doesn’t, then he’s an ass, if he doesn’t say anything then I doubt he’s really at much fault. If she is going through with it with the expectation of more but he hasn’t said there will be anymore then she’s largely at fault for having expectations that haven’t been communicated. Of course it’d be good for both to communicate but I’m not going to fault someone who’s quiet on whether there is a future, I save that for those that are lying about a future n leading people on.
“Frankly, I think the dating world is totally imbalanced. There are way too many women sleeping with guys that have done nothing to earn it and there are way too many guys that feel entitled to sex without commitment and personal responsbility to treat a nother human being with respect. Sorry, but just because you gave a woman an orgasm and a good time doesn’t mean you treated her well.”
Earn it? Is sex a commodity given by women to men? Having sex IS commitment, you could say many women are afraid of commitment if they take longer to want to have sex. What you mean is these guys don’t want the same level of commitment that SHE wants, and quite frankly I’d say these women feel a level of entitlement to a relationship and thus are being hurt when that relationship doesn’t happen. How exactly are these women respecting men if they are jumping into bed with them, not telling them they want more, then the next day/week are resenting those men because he doesn’t keep contact and engage the type of relationship she wants? That’s entitlement. Just because you gave him an orgasm (and shared in sex with him, maybe had one or 2 of your own) doesn’t mean you treated HIM with respect if you’re not communicating what you want from the relationship and then getting angry at him because he only wanted 1 night of fun. Not calling is disrespectful, but expecting him to be a mind reader, being angry at him if you haven’t said you want more and he doesn’t reciprocate your same desires is disrespectful as well.
I can’t help but feel you see many of these men as parasites using women, taking what they want from women then leaving regardless of whether she said she wants more or not. There is no guarantee of a relationship after sex, it’s polite to call the next day or 3 (whatever is popular these days) and yeah you have a right to be annoyed that they don’t call (call yourself if you have to) but to both be mad that he didn’t want more then act like he’s the bad guy because of that? Sounds pretty silly. You’re treating men as benefiting whilst women are sacrificing something and getting mad that it didn’t magically give them the relationship they wanted and didn’t communicate, men aren’t mind-readers. These women are using their sexuality as bait to get man into a relationship and if they aren’t saying what they want then suggesting these women give their sex to a man, that she doesn’t benefit and he’s the bad guy? That’s just a bit deceptive don’t you think?
@Erin….I really do not think the woman did anything wrong.
After this first date, it should be clear to the man that she is not interested in him. It was a first date Erin and she got a free nice meal. But if she is not interested in him from jump street ,then perhaps he should have known so. But certainly, he knows now or at least should.
If this were to continue in a deliberate way on her part, then I would say she is acting inappropriately. If she is not interested, then she should simply “friend zone him” and be direct about it.
But a one time occurence…I am not going to hold that against anyone.
I can see what your saying. I agree that if she goes out on a date with a man she isn’t sure about and is getting to know, her simply going to dinner and him paying isn’t offensive. But if she knows she isn’t really interested in him and just wants the free dinner and conversation, to me, it’s a different matter.
In a perfect world, we would all correctly know a person’s level of interest in us. But warm smiles, laughter and good times doesn’t always mean someone wants to see you again. Men and women don’t always interpret things the same way, there is a lot of room for miscommunication and guessing. Especially in the early stages. I don’t think it’s fair to say that the other person should know the other person’s interest level. In obvious cases yes, but rarely are things obvious between the genders in the early stages of dating. A common compliant with women is they thought the man was sincerely interested in them. That they thought that this was going to progress. Only to come to find out that he was just having fun and after he had time to think about it, he wasn’t into her at all.
I think a lot of men can be pretty artful not to make heavy promises too early but vague enough sometimes to string a woman’s interest along and charm her so he can have sex. It’s always so strange to me how many men will be very strict on their rules involving promises to women and committment but sex they will readily take the oppurtunity for sex. They don’t want to commit to a woman but they want her to make herself vulnerable enough to let him put a part of himself inside her body. To me, it seems backwards.
And unfortunetly, it’s been my xperience that men are fine with taking this advantage and dually holding it against women when they do or being very causual about it and not considering how women view sex differently. Of course, he never really made any promises to begin with so he isn’t accountable. Yet he probably did just enough to charm and and make her feel flattered and good to go to bed with him in the first place. To me, it can be manipulative.
“It’s always so strange to me how many men will be very strict on their rules involving promises to women and committment but sex they will readily take the oppurtunity for sex. They don’t want to commit to a woman but they want her to make herself vulnerable enough to let him put a part of himself inside her body. To me, it seems backwards.”
But do not women want to have sex too? You make it seem as if we all trick and manipulate women into sex. A woman is NOT going to have sex with a man whom she is NOT attracted to. Right?
A lot of women have sex with fuck buddies, booty call guys, FWBs all the time. Right? So, why is it an issue when a woman happens to have sex with a guy that she had feelings for? You’re still having sex with a man whom you are attracted to! Is that so God awful?
I guess this is the part of women I will NEVER understand. Nor do I really care. It just seems so backwards. How, as a woman, can you fuck your booty call guys ( no emotions involved: just sex) and then turn around and sulk over a guy whom you were attracted too because you were “manipulated” into sex? It just seems so idiotic to me.
I used to have very heated arguments with my ex wife about this very issue. So, obviously I have significant venom in me about it.
“But do not women want to have sex too? You make it seem as if we all trick and manipulate women into sex. A woman is NOT going to have sex with a man whom she is NOT attracted to. Right? ”
I noticed that too. Women are responsible for their happiness here. Are the women truly getting the right signals, or are they taking any signal of attraction they get and clinging onto it, projecting hope that something more will happen and then getting hurt because they misread them?
I can understand a person being upset if the guy was saying they’d meet up next week for a date and it never happens, but showing he is attracted to her doesn’t mean he is attracted to a long term relationship. Maybe in some cases women are seeing far more than is really there, mistaking general attraction for him wanting more than just sex and a casual relationship with her.
“Yet he probably did just enough to charm and and make her feel flattered and good to go to bed with him in the first place. To me, it can be manipulative.”
Sounds more like an argument for women having less agency, and the big bad men are using seduction to manipulate women into bed. Sounds like an attempt to deflect responsibility from those women, onto the men…
You cannot be so intimate as to have sex with someone and not have emotions involved. Its impossible. If a woman has emotionless sex with booty call guy does it mean she has no negative or positive feelings about herself or the guy after?
FWB relationships and F-buddies are still relationships, sometimes quite long term relationships. Keep that in mind. A woman might be okay with that kind of relationship if it is upfront and honest. There’s still a friendship and an emotional connection (usually).
My responses have nothing to do with women that have fuck buddies or booty call guys. I was very clear that I am talking about the situation where a woman has sex with a man she wants more from, but he doesn’t want more from her. I never said women didn’t enjoy sex and I never said that women were not capable of having fuck buddies.
I am sorry you don’t care to understand certain parts of women. But while it may seem idiotic to you, it’s not to a lot of women. You either care about working with women or you don’t. I don’t always understand the things men do but I wouldn’t talk so down to them to say that it was idiotic. I kind of feel that after that statement, there isn’t much I could say that you would be open to. You made up your mind already and it’s not a very open one.
If you don’t understand why having feelings for someone changes the equation, I’m not sure what to tell you. Although, I think having feelings for someone changes the equation for both men and women. And yes, it is GOD AWFUL when you believe you are headed in the right direction with a man, sleep with him and make yourself vulnerable to him because you got caught up in something, only to find out that he just wanted to bang you. Yes, It is God awful. Very rarely will an orgasm ever be enough to make a woman happy when she has feelings invested in a situation.
Whether you think I am just some dumb woman or not, I think that neither gender wants to be taken advantage of or used if they are a healthy individual. I don’t think most guys want a woman to just want him for his money. I don’t think most women want a guy to use her just for sex. This dynamic is as old as time for a reason. I don’t know why you would have significant venom over this considering it’s not you that’s really being put in a spot to be used. But whatever, you don’t much seem to care about understanding the female side of it. And the reality is in our culture you don’t have to. You can treat women however you want under justifying it around your sexuality and make women take not only responsibility for themselves but for you (and other men) in how you treat them.
I agree it would feel awful. Why aren’t these women discussing what they want from the relationship? If it’s that big of a deal, wouldn’t you discuss it before having sex? If you have sex with someone without saying what you want from the relationship and they haven’t either then you have every right to feel hurt but what you seem to be saying really boils down to women are expecting more from the relationship at hand and are crushing themselves bigtime when it doesn’t work out that way (on top of the hurt of liking someone that doesn’t want the same). Doesn’t that just make it a whole load worse? Believing they want more without making sure? If the guy has led them on then that guy is an ass, but if the woman is simply seeing more from a situation than it really is then it’s probably not his fault nor her’s really, but just that annoying bullshit that happens in the path to love. Her only fault would be feeling entitled (if she is), assuming too much (though youth n inexperience I’d say excuse this), or just plain old failure to communicate. It’s not good for him to communicate what he wants, leaving the possibilities in the air but to expect a relationship without asking is just setting yourself up for a world of pain in many cases.
Women (or men) shouldn’t EXPECT anything, hope for things to happen all you want but don’t expect it to happen. Expectations feel more like entitlement. “I sleep with you now so you are my boyfriend later” is pretty damn silly…
@ Jules
I think it also depends on circumstance. If he met her at a bar or club, it’s different than if he met her at a mutual friend’s birthday party. If she reasonably knows that his desire is to have sex with her or establish a long term romantic relationship then she was using him even on the first date, if she had already ruled out romantic involvement. If she knew he was taking her to an expensive restaurant prior to accepting the date, she should reasonably know it held romantic intentions. He not being smart enough to figure out she’s using him that first date doesn’t make her innocent of using him.
This is my take. If a man asks a woman out, she will most likely assume that the man either wants to have sex with her, wants to establish a long term romantic relationship with her and eventually have sex with her, or is taking her out as a friend. If he calls her the next day and wants to go out again, she can reasonably rule out the third option unless he told her he’s new in town and doesn’t know anyone. If she just met him for the first time at a club, bar, or any pick up place, then she should know he wants sex or a relationship and she’s using him. If she reasonably knows he wanted sex or a serious relationship and strings him along then she’s using him.
If a woman has sex with a man on a first date, he doesn’t know whether she wants a relationship or simply wanted a one night stand. If he doesn’t call her back, I wouldn’t hold it against him unless she made it clear that she wanted a long term relationship. If he continues to call her back wanting sex and she does not call him seeking sex, he can reasonably assume that she wants a long term relationship and if he continues to pressure her for sex, then he’s using her. If a man meets a woman at a straight bar or club, he reasonably knows she’s looking for a man, but he doesn’t know whether it’s for a long term relationship or just sex.
John, I appreciate your breakdown of all this, and every time you talk about making an assumption I cringe. It screams lack of communication. All the wisdom in the world still won’t even get you close to fully understanding what another person assumes, but there’s good news. You don’t have to assume, you can communicate. The problem isn’t our assumptions, it’s that we lack the courage to say what we feel.
You’re talking about explicit communication in interpersonal interactions. To be honest, I haven’t formulated a coherent opinion on this. Some feminists have suggested that people should ask for direct explicit consent prior to engaging in any sexual activity. They’ve suggested that direct, explicit consent needs to be attained for every escalation or modification to the sex act. That should reduce the instances of sexual assault, but I think sex would become too automated (I can’t find the proper term). Since consent can be withdrawn at any time, I don’t know how feminists factor that in.
There are other forms of communication also. A woman going to a club that traditionally is utilized as a place for people to meet up for the specific purpose of romance with the intention of finding romance is using a man she meets there if she accepts gifts while eliminating this guy as a possible romantic partner. A woman who never gives a man a booty call is communicating that sex is not her primary motivation for seeking the relationship. A guy who doesn’t eventually come to that conclusion is using her.
The law often uses the term reasonable. The negligent standard of criminal intent doesn’t hold that you willfully intended to injure someone, just that you should have reasonably known that your actions had a high probability of causing someone else injury. I’m not completely comfortable with blaming a person who is victimized simply because they are assuming that the other person is acting in good faith.
I don’t think the article was placing the responsibility for how men behave onto women, but rather pointing out that it is a woman’s responsibility to demand the treatment they want from a man, not to tolerate negative traits and behaviors. The sentiment was reiterated multiple times, that a woman has to be able to “walk away” from a relationship where the man is not bringing enough to the table. I think this is in response to a general sentiment that women have this distaste for certain behaviors that men typically demonstrate and rather than calling them out on it or demanding better treatment, they opt not to rock the boat for fear of pushing away their guy and winding up alone. Instead, they complain to their friends about how inept their man is and in a way, gloat over the fact that these men are lacking a number of good qualities that they really want. The writer gave me the impression that you can’t complain on one hand about how you are being ignored or mistreated if on the other hand you are not prepared to remove yourself from that situation in search of that which you truly desire in a partner.
But really, this is not a gender specific thing. I believe men are just as likely to tolerate being mistreated by a woman in a relationship and continue to stick around because they lack the gumption to draw a line in the sand and leave her.
Jon said: “I don’t think the article was placing the responsibility for how men behave onto women, but rather pointing out that it is a woman’s responsibility to demand the treatment they want from a man, not to tolerate negative traits and behaviors.”
I think you said that really articulately. And I agree.
I totally agree with you Jon and Erin, this article places 100% responsibility on women, it’s an article for women, talking TO women. When I write articles for men, I put 100% responsibility on men. For you to really understand this article, you must be able to fully take a woman’s perspective, and let go of yours.
Why would an article TO women get published at the good MAN project? We all want to understand women, and we all know women who could use this kind of advice, so who better to deliver it to her than a man? For men, it also gives us a glimpse into the actions of the high quality women we want.
It’s a wonderful thing when you can reflect upon your life and arrive at a conclusion that you fully understand yourself and what you need to make you happy. Unfortunately, this epiphany can be elusive for many and often adjusts as time passes, priorities change and lives merge. It is a process full of error and I think too many people put too much emphasis on finding “the one” that as soon as they find someone with real potential, they hitch their wagon to that cart forever. Sometimes that doesn’t work out and the subsequent downfall of the relationship tends to wreak much more havoc than it really shouid on a person’s emotions. It’s ok to sleep with someone who turns out to be not “the one” and its okay to give yourself to another person truly and deeply, with vulnerability and full faith, only to have the rug pulled out one day. The responsibility is to identify what makes you happy, avoid that which does not and prioritize that which does. Choose for yourself and if there is reciprocity in that, then life is good.
Dave, if men want high quality women, then those men should act with high quality themselves. I see a lot of guys that want high quality women yet will take any sexual oppurtunity they can and hold it against women all the same.
This canard; guys tricking women in order to get into their pants is tired and probably sexist.
90% of the women, over the age of 3, are half a dozen steps ahead of me when I say hello.
Please, women, play these ” the brute seduced me” games with your mother, your priest and the guy who really wants a relationship with you- but not with yourself…..
“This canard; guys tricking women in order to get into their pants is tired and probably sexist.”
Unless it was rape, then it was consensual. I hate this “men just want to get in my pants garbage”, as if the woman is asexual.
If it was consensual ( and I do hope so), it means she agree to it. Case closed!
Sorry but guys play the game as well as women can. “Trick”, would be a matter of opinion. But it’s certainly a fine line I see men tow when it comes to sex. If 4 year olds are a step ahead of you J.A Drew, I give you my condolenzes. But I find something ironic in your attitude about female responsibility while at the same time proclaiming women over the age of 3 are steps ahead of you. Exactly where is your responsibility in all that if even 4 year olds are more accountable then you are?
Also, I am not talking about women being raped. I am talking about different desires, needs and misscommunication that leads us to make choices with out all the information or through the gentle manipulation of others to ultimately get what they want. I don’t think a woman that sleeps with a man, who ends up not wanting to see her again, is rape. I think men alot of times tow a very fine line and know exactly how to charm a woman enough to engage her in sex but all the sudden have very lofty ideals and self control over engaging her in something more intimate and emotional. And again, as I said above, it’s very backwards the strict rules a lot of men have for emotional attachment that they do not apply to physical attachment.
He might be referring to women maturing faster than men? But even then men catch up in their 20′s when the brain’s are fully developed around 24ish for both.
By fine line, do you mean a fine line close to rape?
@Erin- I’m kind of a nature as opposed to nurture guy… I’ll look it up if you want….
The guy who mates the most in packs of bonobos is the #3 male- while alpha and beta are beating hell out of each other, he and the females are having fun… So the females are hard wired for trickery… I don’t say 4 yr olds are more accountable than ‘I am, I’m just saying I keep bringing knife to a gun fight, and a dull one at that.
Life is social engineering.
Archy, no I don’t mean a fine line close to rape. I mentioned rape because I wanted to be clear since J.A. Drew made a comment about the “brute” seducing a woman. I mean the fine line between how men can use certain “tricks” to charm the other gender to get what they want without sincerity. Such as sex. Then they step back and throw their hands palms up while saying, “hey not my fault. I didn’t promise anything.” He might not have promised anything but he probably wasn’t totally honest with her either. He probably never was so direct and forright that he said, “I just want to sleep with you and not call you ever again.” For a lot of women, especially if she is more into the guy then he is her, an orgasm alone doesn’t make her happy even if it makes the guy happy. Men tow a fine line when they don’t take responsbility for the sex they try to get out of women they know might be looking for more.
J.A. Drew, you aren’t talking about nature for humans. You talked about nature for bonobos. Are you a bonobos? I’m not really intereested in using animals as means to define human behavior. Secondly, I find that when people relay overly heavily on an over simplified versions of “nature” they leave out big chunks of coresponding nature and human behavior as well. Human “nature” is never so simply as Stick A being inserted into Slot A.
As to the rest of your comments, I am lost. Females are hard wired for trickery? I don’t know what you mean by this statement. Are you saying females are hard wired to do the “trickery” or be tricked? Either way, I acknowledge that both men and women play their own games. I am simply addressing the specifics of the games men play so that they don’t have to be accountable sexually with women they want to use for just sex. Since that was what the article as about more then it was about “female trickery”.
Actually yes you did say 4 year olds are more acctounable then you when you said, “en steps ahead of me when I say hello.
Please, women, play these ” the brute seduced me” games with your mother, your priest and the guy who really wants a relationship with you- but not with yourself…..
@erin- I’m 98% chimpanzee & so are you- ok I’m 99% and you may be just 97%.
Here is a little nature/ nurture game:
Including yourself, how many people do you know who have been injured by cars?
How many people do you know who shriek & recoil upon seeing a car?
Now run the same analysis substituting spiders, snakes, rats, dogs… For cars.
I used to be a nurture supporter and then as the years went by I observed how we fall prey to our genes. I know this is unpopular as it infers a bit of responsibility on parents.
Autism, cancer & addiction should be no more surprising than hair color. Why be surprised by gender specific approaches to life?
We grow accustomed to vehicles over time, spend enough time around snakes, etc and the fear usually dies down as well. Quite a lot of people are afraid of the water when they first go for a swim but they get used to it and confident with it.
Because this article reminds me so much of game theory, I’m curious to see what the author thinks about what in game theory is called the “Eligible Bachelor Paradox.” In this phenomenon, many of the women who end up with the most attractive men are not actually the most attractive women, but women who are somewhat attractive and have stopped waiting around for the totally perfect man to arrive. The “eligible bachelors” are often snatched up right away NOT by the most beautiful women but by women who are more willing to accept some flaws, or who can put a man’s flaws into a larger perspective. Even the most attractive women can lose out by being too selective, and can sit around wondering where all the good men went.
Just saying that when women wonder where all the good single men went, maybe one explanation is that those guys were quickly snatched up into relationships with women who were more realistic in their expectations about men. Wait for perfection to come along, or demand perfection, and guess what you will find.
Wish in one hand, sh*t in the other, and see which fills up first…..
It IS a matter of supply and demand. Women with ludicrously inflated expectations are a dime a dozen, you can find them anywhere. Consequently, their relationship value is low. Women who don’t consider themselves goddesses sizing up potential worshippers, on the other hand, are priceless; they get snatched up in a minute.
Actually, I find that men can be very attracted to women who may think very high of themselves. Both genders like confident people. Unfortunetly, sometimes confidence is really arrogance but that doesn’t get further determined until you know who that person is on a deeper level. I know lots of down to earth women that get rejected and aren’t “snatched up’ in a minute. If that was the case, then we would have to assume that men are all completely healthy individuals that only pick the best of partners. But that’s not true. Men are prone to the same pitfalls women can be in picking partners for the wrong qualities.
This suggests another big complication to the supply and demand explanation: imperfect information. The classical econ supply/demand principles are based on a model of perfect information – everyone knows the truth about everything bought and sold, and everyone knows the prices that everyone else is asking and offering. The laws break down somewhat when there’s misperception, fraud, self-delusion, ignorance about yourself and others, etc. So, if people in the dating world are totally out of touch with reality, the “laws” of supply and demand have to be modified in some fundamental ways.
See my message below – saying “it just IS” is not really an objective statement.
I thought love was more or less a Giffen good.
It seems the more I gave the less I got.
–The Monkees
The classical economic model of supply and demand does have a lot of explanatory power when it comes to the dating world, especially when it comes to the kinds of dating relationships that are particularly economic in nature, like looking for a “good provider.” But, like any social scientific theory, it is not a perfect explanation. Being useful and descriptive and even reliably predictive does not make a theory airtight. It just means the theory has some usefulness. Even the “laws” of supply and demand are not immutable, perfect explanations, not even when it comes to overtly economic exchanges. There are exceptions and anomalies and paradoxes like the aforementioned “Giffen good,” where you willingly pay more to get less.
(I keep being reminded of the fact that the Nobel Prize in Economics was awarded in consecutive years to two scholars who came to opposite conclusions from each other. The “laws” of economics are still being worked out….)
Any argument that says a theory explains everything or that ALL human beings act according to this theory is really a statement of faith, not an academically sound argument. Saying ALL people date according to the laws of supply and demand is really a theological statement, not a social scientific statement.
I’m not saying this because I think people are never self-interested or that people are just hearts looking to find their soul mates. But, the rational self-interest model of dating behavior fails to explain why some people just seem so totally self-destructive in choosing their mates. Others seem to have no real idea what they want or what would be best for them.
Sorry, but this thread seems to be going the way of the age old question “Why is it the ‘Jerks’ are the ones always getting ‘Laid’?” Even the womens’ ‘Holy Book’ Cosmo has asked this question in an occasional article.
Well It seems Kezia Noble, has a possible answer for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdEXA1ceaA&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLZsjMuY_sY8Uep7FjMztqpQ
@ wellokaythen- Astronomy was invented so that Economics could be called a science and an outstanding reference to game theory.
@erin- don’t look to deeply into my quips, I got my GED wearing an orange jumpsuit.
Just because a woman told me this joke doesn’t mean it isn’t reprehensible.
Why do women have so much trouble finding well groomed, sensitive and sexy guys?
Because those guys already have boyfriends.
” Why do women have so much trouble finding well groomed, sensitive and sexy guys?
Because those guys already have boyfriends. ”
LoooooooL that was good
When your quips reflect the idea that women are more responsible for you and themselves then you are for yourself, orange jumpsuit or Golden Arches hats aren’t going to make me stop pointing out the wrongness in that!
Listen I’m insulted by the Golden Arches thing…..
Women want the same thing all entities that crawl, fly & swim want; to pass on their genes.
It is why we evolved. The problem that we have also evolved a consciousness about how we procreate. There is ample evidence in the human endeavor and the animal kingdoms that females lie, just as much as males do and in some incidences more, about with whom they mate.
Again, for 99% of hominid existence most mating took place between people who were at most 2nd cousins- so every baby looked alike. So basically short of being caught in the act there was no reason not to be duplicitous.
I brought up the bonobo study to add credence to the idea that trickery is just as prevalent amongst the higher primates as it is amongst prairie chickens puffing out the feathers on their throats.