Women and Sex Work

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About Elle Lynn Stanger

Elle Lynn Stanger is a graduate of Portland State University and a stripper in Portland, Oregon. Her column in Portland’s Exotic Magazine is entitled Erotic Muse, and she models as Casper Suicide. Her interests include law enforcement, political science and poodles.

Comments

  1. Excellent and fair-minded overview of both the industry and the people involved. Thanks for writing it!

  2. PastorofMuppets says:

    Interesting read, though I’m skeptical that the people one would meet at a porn shop are “a clear reflection of people as a whole.”
    That’s a bit like working the late late shift at a dive bar and suggesting your customers’ habits are a clear reflection of people’s drinking habits as a whole.
    No doubt you’ve come across all sorts of people from all walks of life, but I’d wager to guess a majority of people don’t frequent adult stores (they get their porn/sex toys the respectable way … online) and those who do have a different – or at least more open – take on their sexuality than most.

    • True, however I’d be willing to bet my tips on it, because these people were the same variation of demographics: age, race, gender, socioeconomic status that I have seen working at a grocery store, a pharmacy, an ice cream shop, two clothing stores and a mall kiosk. The only difference?

      No children.

    • The Wet One says:

      PastorofMuppets,

      Everyone has sex. Even your own parents. Almost everyone is interested in sex except asexual people (they exist, google their website). Why is it surprising that people who pretend to be asexual all the time actually go to porn shops and adult stores?

      I remember asking the clerk at my local porn shop how on earth the place survives. He said “Not everyone is online.” A pretty sound answer. It applies everywhere where there are people who are not online, or do you figure I’m wrong?

      Anyways…

      • Asexuality is what’s in your heart and your head, not who’s in your bed. Update your definition: it’s an orientation.

  3. wellokaythen says:

    But what about the objectification, man? Aren’t you, like, a victim or something? Must be some sort of false consciousness perpetrated by patriarchy. Clearly a damaged soul ravaged by male domination.
    [sarcasm]

    Seriously, though, I am curious how you would respond to the idea that you are a victim or subject of men’s objectification of women or of the commodification of women’s sexuality. What would you say to the people who see porn as a practice of oppression? I bet your definition of feminism is not the same as others. These are questions that go round and round on the GMP site, but it’s rare to have an “inside” perspective.

    • Good Q! I responded to it on the bottom of the page, somehow the page timed out when I was originally trying to post….

    • Lol, this comment is so accurate it hurts!

    • WellOkayThen, is it wrong to see objectification in porn? Is it wrong to see the porn industry as defined through largely male fantasy? I understand that Elle doesn’t feel objectified by what she does and she enjoys it. I understand that she doesn’t feel that the industry is objectifying. But does that mean that it isn’t all around?

      As someone not in the industry, never have been in the industry and never will be in the industry, I personally see a lot in porn that objectifies and stereotypes women. Am I really wrong to say that? I don’t really think I am. And I don’t get why you would mock that.

      I also think it’s important to keep in mind that having inside perspectives of the industry is undeniably interesting and valuable but there are many kinds of women out there and their opinions, even if they aren’t in the industry, should matter just as much.

      Unfortunetly, when we hear stories from women inside the industry that favor what men ultimately want to believe is true about it, I get the impression that men are blowing off all the different ways the issue can be seen and how women experience themselves and sexuality in regard to sex and pornography which as really over taken society in the past short years.

      Ellie’s story and thoughts are of value. But so are mine. Even if I see the topic different from hers. I hope that you can see that.

  4. This was a great blog. I don’t know anyone in the porn industry, but I do know several women who have and who are still dancing. In my experience, they run the entire gamut of personalities and lifestyles outside the club. I do think that there is perhaps a significant distinction between dancing and doing actual porn with a non-significant other in that perhaps only a small number of people would feel entirely comfortable having penetrative sex with someone they felt no emotional or even friendship invlovement with. However, I do not think that is a subject for moral judgment from myself or others. Other than the obligation to be consensual and safe I am fine with it. And I would be hypocritical if I did not admit I certainly enjoy consuming porn myself. I suspect MOST men do–along with a fair number of women also! I’ve made the point on Facebook often with my pole pals ( many of whom dance ) that sex industry work is not the only job that takes a heavy toll emotionally–many other jobs do also. It’s kind of like hospice work in nursing–you see that same variety of responses–some nurses love the work others will go out of their way to avoid the assignment.

    Now that I pole dance–and have done so on stage just once…I have to admit that I’ve often wondered what it would be like to strip for pay just once…seriously! If I were younger, more fit, and not employed at a somewhat conservative job I’d probably try it…you know…just to see what it was like. What the hell! /Joel

  5. Hank Vandeburgh says:

    I’m an occasional porn consumer (probably about once a week because my wife like sex once a week and I like it twice.) I’m very grateful, though, that I came of age long before porn became so ubiquitous. So, for me, real sex is much more significant. In terms of porn, I like the rare real scene where it seems like both people are really into it, no anal occurs, and hopefully no facial ejaculation occurs. I can’t stand gangbangs or nasty talk, and I hate fast “pounding,” knowing, as I do, that most real women, not all, don’t like it all that much. I do like some “amateur” stuff, when it isn’t imitating professional porn mostly. I generally hate costuming and other fetishes.

    The real problem with much of porn, including the porn I enjoy, is that it shifts something that’s primarily kinesthetic and emotional to a visual mode. I can still like that, but it shifts me into a visual mode, which I remember actually having to learn to be fully excited by when I first started watching porn.

    Before getting my PhD, I did work in psychiatric nursing for years. I think that “hands-on” sex industry work is likely to cut much more deeply into ones psyche than nursing for most people. Yes, there are exceptions. I’d venture to guess, though, that this type of work would prompt many to turn to either stimulants (mime the sexual effect of being aroused) or depressants (cover over the psychic pain.) Porn is a colonizer to an extent, even to those of us who are consumers, but especially to those producing it. It probably, though, should always be compared to the “straight job” alternatives for the women and men who work in the industry. The larger amounts of money they get, itself, probably has as much “valence” as any sexual or transgressive thrill they might get from enacting these scenes.

    I probably won’t stop watching it weekly. But I wish teens weren’t mistaught sex by it.

    • GMP Moderator says:

      Your comment got caught up in moderation. I’ve deleted your second copy of the comment. Sorry for the delay on getting it out.

  6. To the woman who gave the stripper $20 so that her husband would come home and fuck her like crazy — is it a good feeling to know that that’s because he’s turned on by a much hotter and more attractive woman? IDK, I’m not sure I’d enjoy that. It’s not a question if being insecure, it’s a question of wanting to feel like you are the one who is turning your partner on. Otherwise, what’s the point?

    • is it a good feeling to know that that’s because he’s turned on by a much hotter and more attractive woman?
      1. It’s not so certain that the husband finds the stripper “much hotter and more attractive” than his wife.

      2. It could be that the woman herself gets off on the idea of knowing that at the end of the night SHE is the one that he is going to come home to have sex with.

      • Oh come on, of course strippers are way way way more attractive than the average woman! If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it? That doesn’t mean he’s not committed to me, but I’m being realistic.

        • Hate to break it to you but not everyone thinks every stripper is more beautiful than the average woman. I’m sure some are quite beautiful but I have seen plenty of extremely beautiful non-strippers, many of which are mothers here and are quite average. Beauty differs for everyone, getting too caught up in what you THINK is more beautiful than you vs what your partner thinks will surely cause issue.

          “If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it?”
          No, the effect of love can seriously increase your attractiveness to him, hence where the “most beautiful woman/man in the world” terms come from. I doubt anyone who has been told that was truly see as the most beautiful in the world in the first moment they were seen by their partner, it takes time for those feelings to grow.

          NO ONE, could hold a candle to the woman I loved for beauty. I watched a Miss World contest once n thought my love was far more beautiful. A stripper can be decent looking but not the most beautiful to your partner, but the flexibility n overt sexuality could be what turns him on, which doesn’t mean you don’t turn him on. Everyone is different, some people are monogymous, some are poly, that guy may be poly with a monogymous wife and that is how they deal with it?


        • Oh come on, of course strippers are way way way more attractive than the average woman! If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it?

          well because someone is ‘objectively’ more attractive, doesnt mean that every individual would find them ‘subjectively’ attractive. quite a few times ive heard men and women say they can see why a someone is seen as very attractive by the majority, but personally that person does nothing for them

        • If we look just at the stereotypical version of attractiveness in the US I would say that attractiveness depends on which establishment one goes to. You are likely more attractive than many strippers. You many not be oozing the same level of confidence as some stripper ooze because they stand in next to nothing (or nothing) for their job in front of people they don’t necessarily know. For the men I knew who went to strip clubs more often they didn’t go because they thought the women were hot in the stereotypical way. They went because they found the confidence hot for the most part. Or because the women knew what to say.

          I have also paid for significant others to get dances and yeah I got laid afterwards as well. When I talked to my male partners about what they were thinking about afterwards (because the ones I did that with were open like that) they were thinking about being turned on. Really what they wanted to know too is if I thought of the girl when I was all hot for them as well. It made them uncomfortable to know that maybe a girl made me hotter than they did or worse yet a stranger girl. The jealousy factor can go both ways there in that situation. I bought the dances because I simply thought it was hot. I liked seeing him turned on. I liked shaking up the old vanilla sex life once in awhile. I liked that he got to feel safe having a fantasy and that he let me participate in it. I liked that when non-monogamous sex wasn’t an option in a relationship the strip club was an ok substitute.

          At the end of the night my partners came home with me. I was turned on. He was turned on. It was a good thing. Even with out a stripper my partners could be thinking of other women when having sex just like occasionally I think of Marky Mark. I liked being invited into that fantasy.

        • Oh come on, of course strippers are way way way more attractive than the average woman! If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it? That doesn’t mean he’s not committed to me, but I’m being realistic.
          What makes you so sure your boyfriend would find a stripper more attractive than yourself?

          What exactly is “delusional” about the idea that a guy would find a non stripper woman more attractive than a woman that strips?

          Or are you taking the title of stripper and just elevating it to a higher level of attractiveness just because of what strippers do.

          By your line of logic that means prostitutes are even more attractive than strippers right?

          • No one would pay to see me strip. alas, they would probably pay me not to strip. :-) I’m 45 years old, 20 lbs overweight and gravity has taken its toll on my boobs. So, yes, strippers are definitely more attractive than I am. I’m not trying to beat myself up, it’s just a fact.

            • I can agree that MOST men wouldn’t pay to see you strip but you were talking like you know your husband wouldn’t rather see you strip than some other woman.

              I can believe you aren’t trying to beat yourself up but you seem to be drawing some pretty absolute conclusion.

            • Yeah but love itself can make you the most beautiful woman, regardless of your actual physical looks. I think many women are discounting this here, they’re too focused on their looks as seen by OTHERS and not as seen by their partner. It takes a supermodel to be 1/10th as attractive as the woman I loved, her looks aren’t perfect but I don’t care…her eyes n smile alone does something completely unique to me, those supermodels couldn’t do that to me unless I was in love with them.

              It’s hard to quantify attraction though since it’s a feeling, for many men a stripper cannot and never will replace their partner, or be as beautiful. It’s FAR more complicated than simply comparing bodies and I’m surprised women don’t realize this.

            • I’d be willing to bet you are a wholly beautiful and gorgeous lady. Like others say, beauty is subjective. I’d prefer women to feel better about themselves, as they are, in general.

        • Sarah, I have wondered why some women, and some men, do not have a problem with their partners becoming sexually aroused by someone else, someone (regardless of that person’s level of attractiveness) whom they are unable to equal simply because that person is not them. I have also wondered why their partner coming home to them demonstrates anything other than their partner did not have sex with the person who they would prefer to have sex with, and instead went to the SO and basically used them as a masturbation aid.

          • I’ve thought this too on numerous occasions, but I’m a paranoid little fucker with an anxiety disorder, so…

          • “I have also wondered why their partner coming home to them demonstrates anything other than their partner did not have sex with the person who they would prefer to have sex with, and instead went to the SO and basically used them as a masturbation aid.”
            That is a very disgusting way of thinking, wtf? The person goes out, is turned on sexually by others, they come home and HAVE SEX with their partner. Don’t you get it? You can be turned on by more than just your partner. That sexual energy is the sum of your days experiences. Do you think it’s bad when a woman reads a romance novel, get’s soooo horny and has sex with her partner? Or if he/she looks at porn?

            They’re not a masturbation aid, they’re a full human they’re having sex with. The difference is not everyone is 100% monogamous and thus they can get aroused by others, doesn’t mean they don’t find their partner attractive. They’re still having sex with their partner, not just using them.

            • I used to read a forum where one could Ask Men relationship questions. I remember one male commenter in particular saying how women believe that their partners were turned on by them while they were having sex, when in reality the men were thinking of their current masturbatory fantasy woman.

            • Because every man is the same right?
              EVERYONE is diff, some will do that, some will think of their love. Some women themselves will do it too….

            • “Because every man is the same right?”

              I was unaware I had made such a generalization.

            • I jumped the gun a bit, apologies. Often there are negative generalizations of men with porn so it can muddy it up.

    • Good question!

      In truth, I’ve never felt victimized or exploited, because I’ve always accepted the challenges of my job, and feel that people’s negative feelings or statements are true reflections of their own insecurity or lack of understanding.

      When I’m dancing at the strip club, some people view me as a ‘slut’. However, slap some pasties on my nipples and utilize a theme, and it suddenly becomes ‘burlesque’ and is adorably retro. Pole tricks are work, talking to people for a living can be difficult, and being naked for strangers takes self security and confidence, at least in my own eyes.

      The men and women that behave outrageously (insulting us, hooting like animals, pawing at us, giving dirty looks) are really only degrading themselves, by acting like either animals or badly behaved children.

      • “The men and women that behave outrageously (insulting us, hooting like animals, pawing at us, giving dirty looks) are really only degrading themselves, by acting like either animals or badly behaved children.”
        Hi-5, I HATE people like that. Look with respect or get out is what I believe.

      • When I’m dancing at the strip club, some people view me as a ‘slut’. However, slap some pasties on my nipples and utilize a theme, and it suddenly becomes ‘burlesque’ and is adorably retro. Pole tricks are work, talking to people for a living can be difficult, and being naked for strangers takes self security and confidence, at least in my own eyes.
        Do you think that is confidence is why some guys actually open up to strippers like they their own partners? The fact that a woman is willing to strip down to nearly nothing in front of a man that she more than likely doesn’t even know the name of being taken as some sort of sign that she would be an okay person to talk to?

        A trading of vulnerabilities so to speak?

  7. I’m a survivor of child sexual abuse (CSA), and this is my perspective.

    First I will define my survivor model for sex, then point out how a lot of sex-negative feminist campaigners have this survivor model, and I will finish with a better way of “protecting” survivors.

    Non-abused kids and teenagers go through a natural sexual development with “partners” their own age. This healthy development lets children and teenagers work out what kinds of sex and relationships they enjoy, and what they are comfortable with. If this process has gone well, then “a complete asshat” is someone who cheated on them…

    These people are capable of deciding weather or not they are comfortable with porn, stripping, wet t-shirt contests, sex parties, etc… Then they can make a healthy informed decision.

    As survivors, we are robbed of this healthy development. We were made to participate in sex that the other person was comfortable with. We don’t know our own boundaries, and this makes us easy to exploit, in porn, stripping, dangerous work, etc…

    Then if we go into therapy, we are given a correct, black and white model, where all sex with children is wrong. Then we extend this model to adult sexuality, without knowing our own boundaries. So we look to the media and build another black and white model. My model had all vaginal sex with girlfriends who verbally say yes is ok; all nudity on film/stage is abusive; everything not hetronormative is probably abusive.

    This black and white model for adult sexuality is great, I could live the rest of my life inside it. It would be limiting, but it would be safe. The problem is that child abuse is the only area where this model fits reality.

    Now that I have done a lot of healing, and had a lot of sex (which my model defined as safe). I have started to work out where my real boundaries are, and I can now see how limiting my absolutist model for sex is.

    The problem is that a lot of survivors get into feminism, then they try to protect other survivors before they heal. I see a lot of detailed models for what is and isn’t abusive/rapey (which is good for survivors). Then these feminist survivors try to protect other survivors by trying to make the world fit their black and white view. For example, trying to eradicate all porn and prostitution, because some survivors get abused.

    This attempt at protection has a noble aim, but it is fundamentally flawed. To make the world safe for me, the following would have to be in place.

    No working beyond 9-5
    No extreme sports with risk of death
    No access to frozen lakes
    No alochol
    No porn
    No drugs

    We can’t and we shouldn’t make the world safe for survivors, that safe world would be really boring.

    The best we can do is to try and prevent child abuse, then if someone is abused, offer them help. Activism where free therapy is offered, is much better, and more effective, than campaigning to close strip clubs.

    In summary, many sex-negative feminists have a survivor mindset, where sex acts are categorised into good or bad, with no acknowledgement of the individual feelings, boundaries and histories of the people involved. This mindset is limiting, and leads to counter-productive activism.

    • Great comment, very informative thank-you. I’ve noticed quite a lot of survivors as feminists. It explains why there can be such a hardcore anti-porn stance.

    • Hank Vandeburgh says:

      I loved this comment, too. And I’m aware that this paradigm is true for many sex workers. One difference in reference to “their own age.” I don’t think an older teen or young adult being initiated by or having a lover older than them is a bad thing. Absolutely not children or younger teens. Sex can be a little technical, and this is a way to pass down knowledge. I wouldn’t expect these relationships to be permanent. The age-appropriateness thing has come up here a few times, and I don’t automatically agree with it.

  8. Thank-you for this well-written n thoughtful article on the variety of people in porn. It’s great to see pro-porn stances which realize the complexities in the field. Every job can have people exploited in, should we ban mining because some miners are exploited?

  9. Heisenberg says:

    “”There’s a lot of complaining about the ‘reality’ of porn, with opponents arguing pornography presents an unrealistic representation of sex. Well, duh.”

    The issue is many people – especially young people – do not have this lightbulb moment. They do not have a frame of reference with which to compare the porn “reality”. What you and I view as “par for the porno course”, they may view as an accurate portrayal of sex.

    I will not deny the incredible diversity of human sexuality. I will not deny that some women may like cum on their face and being called “slut”. But if this is a dominant representation (which in my research, it is) that appears on many of the free porn websites available (redtube, youporn, et al.), then those that access these may begin to see that this is what sex is all about.

    Several studies in Sweden (Tyden and Rogala 2004 is one) find links between pornography consumption and sexual practices in young people. This shows young people are taking what they see from porn and adopting these practices in their own experiences. All fine and good, provided the porn they view isn’t degrading, and promotes equality and reciprocity. Which it most often does not. And in another Canadian study (talked about in James Check, “Teenage Training: The Effects of Pornography on Adolescent Males”) a correlation is found between porn consumption and young males views that holding a girl down during sex and forcing her to have sex after she has said no is okay.

    My view is this: porn offers entertainment to society and I would be a hypocrite to say it is wrong. I do not wish porn to disappear. At the same time I do not want young people I work with (I am a youth worker) to have ready access to content which educates them that women like being ejaculated on, like having their hair pulled, and love rough sex. While this may be true for some women, porn can educate these young people that ALL women are into these things, for they have no other source of information including a lack of lived experience. This is highly problematic.

    I love it that pornographers you know are attempting to subvert the archetype that has become so highly mainstream. This is definitely the answer. As is removing the taboo on sex so it is spoken about with more honesty and maturity in schools and around the family dinner table. That young people receive most of their sex education from porn is a blight on our supposedly liberal society. But while this is waiting to happen, I have to reject the notion that because you and I – and people of lived experience and intelligence – can see that porn is fake and unrealistic, that it isn’t capable of doing significant harm. It can, and is, harmful.

    • The thing is that there is so much variety in porn, but also that there’s no set guide to porn either depending on what you watch. It can have anything from hair pulling to the most sensual and loving content, I haven’t seen hair pulling in agggeeeeessss, but I look mainly at solo or amateur content. There is harmful content but there is also a lot of non-harmful content, should we be directing kids to the better stuff?

      Kids being educated by porn is a clear sign that our society fails at giving adequate sexual education, yet too often people blame porn itself. Do you blame violent movies for violent behaviour too? Whilst there can be effects on the minds of children with porn I think the bigger problem is the lack of OTHER forms of sex education. How are these kids going to learn? They’re growing up and have their sexual desires starting but the only education that is indepth is online porn, and yet so many will blame porn for not teaching “real sex” when there is SO MUCH variety in porn that it’s silly to generalize about it like that. Hell the majority of porn produced now is amateur, sexting is the largest porn production in the world and many teenagers use that as a form of porn. There exists porn which is a realistic view of sex, many amateur videos are like this where they are simply a couple having sex. Porn CAN BE fake, but it’s not ALWAYS fake.

      Porn is so often a scapegoat for poor parenting, poor school education which is the bigger issue. If the only way to learn about sex is friends who are inexperienced and porn then what do people expect? Do you learn math by watching a shooter in a movie picking off targets going 1, 2, 3? Why aren’t classes teaching students how to have sex? They tell you how to use a condom, don’t rape each other and that’s it and when they finally try sex they only really have porn, online guides, or friends to find out from and people wonder why porn has such an influence on them….it’s their only real education. So you can try fix porn but porn doesn’t have to be realistic, it’s fantasy material, it can be whatever the viewer wants…but really we need to be fixing sex education.

      • I have made this comment in response to other articles about porn. Although I have mixed feelings about porn for a number of reasons, I am not sure porn can be blamed for turning young men Into insensitive or inept lovers. When I first started having sex back in the 1980′s, I can’t say that my boyfriends were great lovers. I probably wasn’t a great lover either (although it was easier for me because at that age, guys were just thrilled to be having sex no matter what I did or didn’t do). Sex takes practice and communication. Our big complaint my friends and I had back then about men was “wham bam thank you ma’am” sex, i.e. sex without emotional connection or foreplay. Maybe the complaint now is that men are engaging in too many “porn” moves. Again, without enough emotional connection or foreplay. In other words, I don’t think porn created the underlying issue, which has to do with the differences between male and female sexual response. I will say, I believe the majority of men really, really want to please women sexually. They just may not know how. Some may have difficulty taking feedback or direction from their partner because of insecurity and wanting to act like they know everything already. This can be an issue in a relationship that the couple has to work on. Again, porn may have influenced what men think women like but most of those guys are actually TRYING to do what women like (even if they have it wrong) and overall, that’s a positive thing! Ladies, it is up to us to show our guys how to please us. That is true today and it was true 30 years ago. If your partner won’t take feedback and isn’t interested in pleasing you, then you may need to rethink that relationship. That’s true of men as well as women.)

        • “I will say, I believe the majority of men really, really want to please women sexually. They just may not know how.”
          Hi-5, someone who gets it. Bad education is to blame, how are men supposed to know?

        • Although I have mixed feelings about porn for a number of reasons, I am not sure porn can be blamed for turning young men Into insensitive or inept lovers.
          Only to a certain extent. It’s a matter of porn being the ONLY source of material and influence in their lives plus the problem of when they are discovered to indulge in that one source they are scolded for it but not being offered any alternative. It’s like, “That’s unhealthy!!! Where else are you supposed to go for this? How am I supposed to know I am just telling you that stuff is unhealthy!!!”

          In other words, I don’t think porn created the underlying issue, which has to do with the differences between male and female sexual response.
          Agreed. It may have made things worse but the problems were already there. Porn (and its ease of distribution) just brought it to the light.

          I will say, I believe the majority of men really, really want to please women sexually. They just may not know how.
          We don’t know how, we aren’t offered alternative sources, we’re offered conflicting sources, we are scolded for simply wanting to please women, etc… Goddamn mess.

          Some may have difficulty taking feedback or direction from their partner because of insecurity and wanting to act like they know everything already.
          Insecurity based on being expected to already know everything.

          This can be an issue in a relationship that the couple has to work on. Again, porn may have influenced what men think women like but most of those guys are actually TRYING to do what women like (even if they have it wrong) and overall, that’s a positive thing! Ladies, it is up to us to show our guys how to please us. That is true today and it was true 30 years ago. If your partner won’t take feedback and isn’t interested in pleasing you, then you may need to rethink that relationship. That’s true of men as well as women.)
          Greatly appreciate the acknowledgement.

    • Helsenberg, keep in mind that it is also educating young girls that this is what their sexuality should be. That they should like being called names and ejaculated on and the likes of that. In any other case, if not sexual, we would call this physical and verbal abuse. But today, for a lot of women and girls, physical and verbal abuse is suppose to be “sexy”. If young boys are seeing it today, so are young girls. And they are taking in messages about what their bodies should look like and what they should be doing to make boys happy.

      There are many articles about how body confidence in young girls drops in their early teens. I don’t think pornography is going to make them feel more empowered about their bodies.

      And in my personal experience, while I think kids are more vulnerable to this, I think a lot of adults are too. Sexuality has changed so much in a few short years and I think that’s largely because of pornography. I’ve had certain experiences with men that was much more selfish and pornographic and voyeuristic then men actually wanting to connect with me on another level physically. I was expected to perform “tricks” rather than just be myself sexually.

      Archy, the amount of “variety” in porn today that you believe there is, doesn’t override the stereotype about what the typical pornstar looks like. Most women in porn are young and beautiful. This is the largest pool of the industry. Youth remains the largest fetishized item in the industry. Most women even in the industry will talk about having an “expriation date”. If there are still “expiration dates” in porn, then it doesn’t have the amount of variety that you think it does. There is also a huge dirth in how women of color are represented in porn. Largely white, young women with big breasts are still largely projected as the epitome of what men want. And while there are many catagories in porn, I don’t think it’s positive when women are placed in those catagories for their big breats, small breasts, “grannies”, “teens”…and all the labels indiviual women in porn get fitted in do to one of their features. You think this is a positive, I don’t.

      Finally, Porn is not just a scapegoat for poor parenting. Normal, regular, middle class kids are seeing porn too. NOt because their parents are horible but because porn is everywhere now-a-days and it would be pretty much impposible to keep all sexual visuals from their child’s eyes. This doesn’t mean that these kids are from poor backrounds and that parents are crap. It means that porn is a major part of our culture now and that lots of kids are already being raised with the idea that sex is about what porn shows. Alot of men already have that idea when they ask their parents to do something more like what they seen in porn.

      So while I respect this piece a lot and am glad it’s here on GMP, I think we need to keep in mind that just because a woman is recounting her experiences personally from an in-side perspective, that it doesn’t mean it’s the whole story. Or that it obliterates the ways porn still stereotypes women largely. And until the day I see porn equally box men into sub catagories of his worth based on his shoulder size, cock size, calling men names…mind you that I am saying “equally” show men this way beause we know that currently doesn’t happen, the porn isn’t the egalitarian media you seem to want to respresent it as.

      • And while there are many catagories in porn, I don’t think it’s positive when women are placed in those catagories for their big breats, small breasts, “grannies”, “teens”…and all the labels indiviual women in porn get fitted in do to one of their features. You think this is a positive, I don’t.
        Out of curiosity why do you think such divisions are not positive? (For the record I can see how they CAN be bad but I don’t think it’s to the point of just flatly declaring them bad.)

        • if you read my response again you will see the answer is already in there. it categorizes women based on one feature that sends the message that that one feature is the surmount of her worth at that point and time, or rather, her lack of worth. So woman with large breasts gets to be fetishized for her big breasts. She doesn’t just get to be her in all her entirety, complexity and totaltality. She is the sum of her one body part. A woman can’t just be a full complete woman. She has to be a “big breasted woman” or a “small breasted woman” or a young one or an Asian woman. An ethnic woman can not exist in porn without her race being a bigger definer of her worth then her woman-ness. If she is Asian, then she is just an Asian sex object. If she is African American then she is just an African American sex object. She isn’t a woman first, she is a body part, age or race first. She is objectified for these qualities before she is even seen as a full complete, complex, self defining indivudal with her own sets of needs and desires.

          • I had a feeling that was what you were saying I just didn’t want to put the words in your mouth.

            What you say here, to me, is the can in how such divisions can be bad but not inherently bad.

            • I’m not sure I understand whaty ou mean by “….but not inherently bad.” Danny.

            • As in the difference between:

              “I have a preference of (insert trait) in women so what is what I mostly notice.”

              and

              “If a woman doesn’t have (insert trait) she doesn’t exist.” or “The only value a woman has is (insert trait).”

              Both thoughts happen to run through the heads of countless men (and women I might add) every day several times a day.

              One is perfectly fine and pretty much free of problems while the other is pretty problematic. I would say that what you have been talking about is the damage the latter can cause. And I agree.

            • There is a difference between liking a certain feature a woman posses and noticing it in public vs specifically seeking it out and “shopping” for it through a catalog of material that is utlmately about your own pleasure first. A catalog that offers the “product” (women) up on a shelf based on what *you* like.

              Simply liking a woman with a certain feature isn’t bad if a man isn’t objectfying her for that part. But porn only knows how to objectify. That’s how it makes it’s money. That’s how it gets people to notice it. Since porn only represents the woman as having that feature that is specifically designed for whatever “flavor” a man is interestedin. Porn isn’t respresenting that woman as a full, whole person with needs of her own. Porn isn’t representing her needs or values or desires. Instead, it dissects and projects the features that will draw a man in. It doesn’t show anything else about her but her eagerness to please and have sex with whatever body part, age or nationality a man wants most at any given time. And that’s the difference. Not that some men liek big breasts or small breasts. But that women are the product being sold for your utlimate enjoyment. And I know a lot of men are find and dandy and happy with teh way things are in that regard. But don’t pretend you can’t see how it for a woman, it’s not such a great thing.

            • So basically your logic means you objectify ever tradesperson you ever meet because you’re shopping specifically for their skillset alone? I feel sad for people in your world if you only see their worth as one aspect of them, men are quite capable and often do see a woman as a real woman even in porn.

              And btw, humans are selective in who they approach and ask out, they “shop” as it’s a natural and normal behaviour. Do you know how many women have told me how much they hate when men DON’T shop for women? When they approach everyone with the hope one will say yes? They want to be special and thus the man has to browse all the women around, find one he is attracted to, who is single, who is available (hey look, categories!) and then ask them out.

              Objectification requires the person to only see them as an object, see their worth by one trait. Selecting people in categories does not mean they only see one thing of value anymore than me looking in the book for a painter or skipping most women and only asking out the woman who made my heart flutter.

              “But don’t pretend you can’t see how it for a woman, it’s not such a great thing.”
              Well you don’t seem to comprehend that men still respect women when being selective, so of course you won’t think it’s such a great thing. But by your logic anytime you hire a tradesmen, you’re objectifying them, how is that a good thing for tradespeople? Or maybe you can understand that being selective doesn’t mean you only care about one thing, but simply you’re more likely going to find a woman/man you desire when being selective since not everyone has a 100% spread of attraction to every single human alive.

            • I am talking about the unique topic of porn and sexuality. Which is infinitely more complicated for obvious reasons. I’m not interested in getting into a conversation about other career paths.

              I don’t think it’s a positive that women are labeled by their body parts or age in porn. As a woman, seeing that, it feels like crap. I understand that’s not how it makes you as a man feels. It feels good to you because you can pick and choose whatever desire you have in the moment. I understand this is a positive for you. I don’t consider it a positive and I don’t think that I’m wrong for that.

              Of course, I think most women hope their partners are selective and attracted to them, again, this isn’t what I am talkin about. I am not talking about personal relationships and real human interaction between individuals. You will see I was very clear with Danny that there is a difference between him being attracted to a feature a woman posses vs him visually seeking out a woman based on a feature he wants to use to masturbate to.

            • So basically it all comes down to you having a view that men masturbating to women in porn is objectifying them? What makes you think that single feature is all he wants? Wouldn’t it be possible that men are attracted to a feature a woman posses n are using categories in place of naturally bypassing women that don’t meet their attraction like what goes on in the face 2 face world?

              I used a category the other day, redheads, because I am very attracted to redheads. There was still quite a variety of women there and it’s only one feature that I am attracted to, there are still other processes going on in my attraction before I want to date or have sex with or watch porn of a woman. Categories just increase the chance I’ll be attracted to the people in the video, they still have to stand out. For me at least it has nothing to do with their worth, it doesn’t mean brunettes aren’t attractive. I can’t search based on personality because my attraction to personality is too damn random and requires personal interaction. It’s based all on lust, but that doesn’t make it objectifying unless you see them as an object vs a human. I don’t jerk off to objects, if I did I’d be looking at nice cars:P.

          • When you see these categories, Erin, do you think those women are just those parts, or do you recognize that they are individuals, regardless of where they’re placed in the porn taxonomy? If you think so narrowly of them, that’s sad, but I don’t think you do. Why in the world do you think men only see them that way – that they’re less capable of respecting the person?

            It’s like a menu. If I feel like lasagna, I’m more likely to go for Olive Garden than El Torito. That doesn’t mean I only ever like lasagna, or that I think the cooks at Olive Garden aren’t real people who could be interesting to know, or that the only thing they’re good for is making lasagna.

            Porn categories aren’t about defining the worth of women. They’re about categorizing content by taste, which I’m sure you have no problem with whenever it’s done in a non-sex context, like food, movies, music, etc. Whenever I see you describe the value or worth of a porn model/actress/performer, you consistently degrade and shame them far more than I ever do in my own mind. You describe a kind of objectification that is completely foreign to my way of thinking, and represent that as being how men think. Well, I respect women in porn. Do you?

            • “Whenever I see you describe the value or worth of a porn model/actress/performer, you consistently degrade and shame them far more than I ever do in my own mind. You describe a kind of objectification that is completely foreign to my way of thinking, and represent that as being how men think. Well, I respect women in porn. Do you?”

              Amen to that, her comment and comments like that are the absolute most degrading comments I’ve ever seen towards people in porn, far more than the guy calling a woman a whore. To see their worth as only categories is fucking disgusting and extremely foreign to my way of thinking. There is a huge difference between being attracted to and/or prefering X type of person and valuing them for 1 trait…

            • Archy: “Amen to that, her comment and comments like that are the absolute most degrading comments I’ve ever seen towards people in porn, far more than the guy calling a woman a whore. To see their worth as only categories is fucking disgusting and extremely foreign to my way of thinking. There is a huge difference between being attracted to and/or prefering X type of person and valuing them for 1 trait…”

              Show me where I ONE time made a derogatory comment about a porn star? Show me. Prove your own comments here. Because you know what? This claim that I am disrespecting actresses in porn is bull crap. I never once said anything derogatory about women in porn. All I ever said that was catagorizing women based on their age, small breasts or big breasts or whatever was boxing women into a limited perception that didn’t take into account her complete humanness. LOL. And that’s offensive? Your mad at me because porn labels women based on their boobs size or age? Now women are suppose to think that men are treating women with respect when they are pulling out the porn clip of 18 year old school girl with implants getting rammed out? yeah..tell me again that that guy is seeing her as a complete human being. And tell me again how I’m being offensive when all i am doing is talking about how I as a woman see women being catagorized and labled the way they are in porn as degrading. Unbelievable.

              And no one even wants to touch on how ethnic women are represented in porn. Which is even worse then how white women are. Although it’s no picnic for white women either. But I’m the offensive one? Yeah okay. You think it makes Asian women feel good that they are a fetish? You think they like being seen for their Asianess first and their woman-humaness second? Porn isn’t offensive. It’s not offensive for women to be put into catagories about their booby size and their age .
              I’m the offensive one because I am speaking up against that. Yeah okay….

              What is disgusting to me is that you just tried to act like I was the one deminishing women because I take issue with how women are often categorized in porn.

              Don’t try to tell me that most men are seeing women as complete individuals when they are using porn. Especially because porn isn’t about getting to know women, it’s about just masturbating to them!

            • “Show me where I ONE time made a derogatory comment about a porn star? Show me. Prove your own comments here. Because you know what? This claim that I am disrespecting actresses in porn is bull crap.”

              You have both myself and Marcus wondering how you respect these women. Do you read your comments? You talk constantly about their worth only being their body parts when the 2 men who watch porn replying to you see their worth as more. You think categories objectify women based on their body and that men are objectifying the women, as if they’re incapable of seeing a full human there. How is it not offensive?

              “She doesn’t just get to be her in all her entirety, complexity and totaltality. She is the sum of her one body part. A woman can’t just be a full complete woman.”
              Right there, is degradign them. Because YOU are seeing those women as only worth that, don’t you get it? You think these women’s worth is only their body parts. It’s some of the most degrading stuff I’ve ever seen written about porn. What’s worse is you’re trying to paint men as always objectifying where they are not. In the comments here the only person seeing women’s worth based on body parts appears to be YOU.

              “Now women are suppose to think that men are treating women with respect when they are pulling out the porn clip of 18 year old school girl with implants getting rammed out?”
              And who says they aren’t? You? You don’t know what these men are thinking, you’ve proven it often when you’re completely misread myself n others, you’ve womansplained about what men think and had a bunch of people tell you differently. What you think men think and what most men think are probably very different. You seem to think that jerking off to someone means they don’t see them as a full human, why? Do you see your partner as a full human when you have sex with them?

              I could watch that video and still respect her, why wouldn’t I? She’s a porn star who is consenting yes? She’s made the choice to have implants herself, she’s having sex on camera without being forced to? When watching that video I could be attracted to her and still see her as a human, why the hell wouldn’t I? I’m not jerking off to her tits or this or that, I’d be jerking off to HER as a person. Or do you see the act of masturbating to the thought or image of someone else as the degrading act?

              “If she is Asian, then she is just an Asian sex object. If she is African American then she is just an African American sex object. She isn’t a woman first, she is a body part, age or race first. She is objectified for these qualities before she is even seen as a full complete, complex, self defining indivudal with her own sets of needs and desires.”
              See, you’re objectifying her. Meanwhile I look at it and see ok it’s a woman who is asian. Being attracted to asians isn’t objectifying is it? Do I objectifying all women because I’m attracted to women solely becuase THEY ARE WOMEN? Or is it because it’s the gender I am attracted to, my preference?

              “Don’t try to tell me that most men are seeing women as complete individuals when they are using porn. Especially because porn isn’t about getting to know women, it’s about just masturbating to them!”
              There you go again, you’re womansplaining, AND YOU’RE BEING MISANDRIST. You’re telling men that they don’t see women as complete individuals when they use porn. It’s fucking disgusting, it’s manbashing, it’s insulting, and proves to me you haven’t got a damn clue about men. Seriously, do you even know men at all? You CAN’T get to know them via porn, it’s impossible, but you can still see them as human, as individuals. But seriously Erin, stop telling men what they think, it’s insulting. You are a woman, you have NEVER lived a life as a man right? Then you have NO idea what men think and are not an authority to speak for what men think. The best you can do is guess, and you’ve got multiple men telling you it’s wrong. So either take their word for it or continue on your path of misandry but don’t you dare try to tell me most men don’t see women as individuals.

            • Marcus: “When you see these categories, Erin, do you think those women are just those parts, or do you recognize that they are individuals, regardless of where they’re placed in the porn taxonomy?”

              If I didn’t see these women as individuals why would I have made this comment here on Nov. 2:

              “Most women even in the industry will talk about having an “expiration date”. If there are still “expiration dates” in porn, then it doesn’t have the amount of variety that you think it does. There is also a huge dirth in how women of color are represented in porn. Largely white, young women with big breasts are still largely projected as the epitome of what men want. And while there are many categories in porn, I don’t think it’s positive when women are placed in those categories for their big breaats, small breasts, “grannies”, “teens”…and all the labels individual women in porn get fitted in do to one of their features. You think this is a positive, I don’t.”

              And here in response to a question Danny asked me on Nov. 3:

              “…it categorizes women based on one feature that sends the message that that one feature is the surmount of her worth at that point and time, or rather, her lack of worth. So woman with large breasts gets to be fetishized for her big breasts. She doesn’t just get to be her in all her entirety, complexity and totaltality. She is the sum of her one body part. A woman can’t just be a full complete woman. She has to be a “big breasted woman” or a “small breasted woman” or a young one or an Asian woman. An ethnic woman can not exist in porn without her race being a bigger definer of her worth then her woman-ness. If she is Asian, then she is just an Asian sex object. If she is African American then she is just an African American sex object. She isn’t a woman first, she is a body part, age or race first. She is objectified for these qualities before she is even seen as a full complete, complex, self defining individual with her own sets of needs and desires.”

              Do you need more proof? I’m happy to provide it for you.

              Considering the fact that I am the one who made the argument here that these women are complete, whole individuals and what bothers me is that in porn they are dissected and categorized and limited based on their age, body parts or ethnicity, I think the answer to your question is obvious. You hold actual viable proof about my stance on this, before your very eyes Marcus, given way before you even asked that question. I’m the one that expressed issues with how these women are represented. I’m the one that made a comment about their wholeness, their individuality being ignored infavor of boxing them into categories about their breasts or age.

              Marcus: “If you think so narrowly of them, that’s sad, but I don’t think you do. “

              You don’t need to think I do. The proof is in my very words. Proof you can see made time and time again in my posts and right above where I re-posted things I showed you so you could easily see the proof for yourself. It’s obvious I don’t think narrowly of them. It’s obvious that my issue is with how narrowly popular male media reduces women’s image and body into. And it doesn’t just extend to the women in the videos but to every women..to women in general since how men see and treat women is going to be received by the actual real women in their lives, not just the women they are watching have sex and wishing they were with on film.

              I am the one that made the point about them being full, complete, individual women. I’m the one that pointed out how women being categorized based on their body parts, age or ethnicity is culpable in reducing women into narrowly defined terms about all they have to offer. I’m the one that made that distinction. So I am truly baffled why you even asked the question you did to begin with if you actually spent any time reading my comments at all.

              Marcus: “Why in the world do you think men only see them that way – that they’re less capable of respecting the person?

              It’s like a menu. If I feel like lasagna, I’m more likely to go for Olive Garden than El Torito. That doesn’t mean I only ever like lasagna, or that I think the cooks at Olive Garden aren’t real people who could be interesting to know, or that the only thing they’re good for is making lasagna.”

              Women aren’t food right Marcus? Women aren’t something you should be able to pick from a menu based on how you feel at any given moment. Women are people. The fact that we can even have a discussion where you think it’s respectful to relate your desire for many types of women to your desire for many types of food feels really awful as a woman to hear. And no matter how much rationalizing you do about trying to make this issue *easier* by comparing your like of food and your like of women, anything involving people and not inanimate objects is always going to be 10 times more complicated. It doesn’t really matter if sometimes you feel like lasagna and sometimes you feel like hot dogs. Because people aren’t food! Neither are we met to be treated like food from a menu you can pick. Who actually wants to be treated like that? Do you?

              Do you want to be just one of many options on a menu that someone can pick or throw away based on how they *feel* any given monment? I know I don’t want to be. When you compare human begins to food or cars or anything else, you are objectifying them. When you say that picking food and how you interact with food is the same with how you pick or interact with another human, you are in affect, objectifying them.

              I don’t think you really mean to do this. I think you honestly and sincerely think that comparing people to food gives you a good analogy where you hope I understand better. But as a woman, it doesn’t feel good when men say things like “well sometimes I like pizza and other times I like salad..”…or the famous “sometimes I like hamburger and other times I want steak”. These comparisons feel like crap.

              Human relationships are 10x plus more complicated and you are never going to rationalize a good enough analogy that is going to help to understand human interaction on the back of how human beings use objects vs how human beings use actual other human beings.

              Please stop comparing women to steaks and lasagnas or other food items.

              Women aren’t food. Food is an object. Women aren’t objects. They are living beings.
              I experience everyday how easily men objectify women. I see it everyday whether it’s projected on myself, onto other women or onto women in visual medias that men are enjoying. I hear it everyday from little comments men make light heartedly that they think is no big deal to bigger comments. You would be amazed by the level of objectification women deal with every day. I don’t take this issue lightly because this issue isn’t light.

              Marcus: “Porn categories aren’t about defining the worth of women. They’re about categorizing content by taste…”

              Sure, part of it is about taste and what will draw a man in. But just because that categories are about taste, it doesn’t mean that women isn’t being represented as just a body part. And please, lets acknowledge that porn largely is categorizing women first and most because porn still largely focuses on specifically what men want. And this is a major part of the obecjtification. The fact that porn is about taste doesn’t mean it’s not also about dissecting women into just body parts or age. Woman are being targeted for offering a certain age, body part or ethnicity that will enable the man to pleasure himself to objectifying that body part, age or ethnicity. It is her body part or age he is enjoying, not the respect or the ability to see her as a whole person. Infact, often men defend porn use by saying that they infact don’t see that woman as a person. That they don’t care who she is and that if they really knew her, they probably wouldn’t like her anyway. These are regular arguments men make to their own partners.

              Marcus: “…, which I’m sure you have no problem with whenever it’s done in a non-sex context, like food, movies, music, etc. “

              Why would I have issue with movies or music being categorized? Movies and music aren’t human beings. Making a distinction between Jazz music and Pop isn’t the same as making a distinction between “teenagers” and “Milfs”. You also fail to admit that the women are largely the group being categorized. Not men. Men aren’t being called names in porn with the ease that women are. Men aren’t being described for their body parts as much as women are. That’s the reality of the industry.

              Marcus: “Whenever I see you describe the value or worth of a porn model/actress/performer, you consistently degrade and shame them far more than I ever do in my own mind. You describe a kind of objectification that is completely foreign to my way of thinking, and represent that as being how men think. Well, I respect women in porn. Do you?”

              Please tell me how I degrade or shame women in porn more than what you think you do in your own mind?Where have I ever..EVER, said anything personally disparaging about a porn actress? I am really interested in your response to this question.
              I think a lot of women that get into porn do so because they want to feel loved. I don’t begrudge them that. I think most women that get into porn don’t have a real firm grasp of the reality of the business when the camera isn’t rolling. I think a lot of women get into porn because they need money and know they can make money from that. I think most women in porn are human beings strugglign to make it in this world. I think very few women actually go into porn because they just love sex so much. But I do think those women exsist too. Just not in the greater quantity.

              My comments are not just for the women who act in porn, although they certainly deserve major consideration. My comments are also about thinking about regular women in a man’s everyday life. The mothers, sisters, girlfriends and wives of your regular life. The women that are there by your side. THe women that ruin their bodies for babies or don’t have time to work out as much as they want. The women that get older, get more saggy, the women that struggle with their body and their femininity and how they wished they looked because they see what their men *really* like in women. Keep in mind that porn doesn’t just affect the women in the industry but women outside the industry that love men that love porn. Women who are told all day long how they fail at being the women men really want.

              THere are two women in this equation. It’s not just the women who act in porn but your regular average woman that has to deal with all this content as well and the expectations that are placed on her for it. And the way men view and treat women both privately and in their real relationships because of the content they are actively absorbing and often reflecting onto their own partners.

              You respect women in porn. That’s great. I respect all women. Women in porn and women not in porn. I never once made a disparging comment about women in porn. I don’t just reserve my respect for women in porn specifically. What about you though? You didn’t say anything about respecting women not in porn..which I just refer to as “everday” women. How much do you respect real life everyday women?

              I see more men defend pornography then I see men defend everyday average not in porn women.

            • “I see more men defend pornography then I see men defend everyday average not in porn women.”
              Since when do women defend everyday average men on any major scale? Men defend porn because there is no shortage of women who will TELL men what they think instead of asking, they will misunderstand men, they will say men are degrading women and a bunch of misandrist bullshit whilst simultaneously ignoring the men replying who are proving otherwise. I’ve had women tell me watching porn = watching rape, that the porn stars are being raped. Hell I must have raped myself when I fooled around on webcam being porn for someone else. It’s sad seeing women actually tell men what men are thinking and getting it wrong, not ask, not say I feel like men do x, but state flat out that men think this or that. Then they will demonize men over the woman’s misinterpretation of men. All the while men are replying stating differently…..

              Are you even interested in what men have to say on porn because I so often see you dismissing what we’re saying and then implying negative behaviour of men with porn. We’ve even addressed many of your concerns. We’ve all agreed there is a lot of negativity in porn but you’re going a step further and trying to imply most men do not respect women or see them as people when looking at porn, and that is something I consider wrong and misandrist to boot.

            • I am interested in hearing what men have to say Archy. but I am not going ti dismiss my own values because you simply like porn and you describe yourself as being respectful to women. I don’t think porn is positive for women or men. I dont’ think porn represents women well. I think it’s hateful to women. Me believing that degrades no one. I think porn is a huge weakness for men too and I don’t think men are always coming from a fair place when they are defending porn. So yes, I am interested in what men have to say but I also know what I see as a woman. And you are often dismissve and offensive about that. You tell me I hate men because I think women are being degraded through porn. That makes no sense to me! You tell me I am degrading porn stars because I think the way porn categorizes women based on their age and breast size is degrading to women! That makes no sense to me!

              Here is the thing you always ignore. I’ve said a million times that I know good men look at porn. I know men that love their wives and gfs and daughters and sons look at porn. That doesn’t mean that men are treating women in general respectfully behind closed doors. That doesn’t mean that a good man that took his little girl to the zoo and protected her from a bully is always respecting women or is always doing right by women. It’s not a black and white issue. It’s not that men looking at porn = bad disrespectful man all the time. That’s what you don’t seem to get.

              You keep telling me I am being misandrist. Yet you think you’re what? Treating me with respect? You are labeling me with a negative name. And why? Because I think porn is largely degrading to women. And because I point out the ways in which I think this way.

              It’s not about all men being disrespectful men, end of story. They aren’t and that’s not the end of the story. It’s about there being a lot of good men out there, men that love and respect their partners and families that still very much like a product that often, more times then not, doesn’t really do right by women. And that’s what you miss. And that’s why a lot of women are so bothered by this subject sometimes. Because they know that good men like porn too. And they see porn and see how it treats women and have their own ideas about how their gender is being treated or not being treated. But it seems liek a lot of men want to be the only ones to set the terms about what women are allowed to find respectful or not. Yet if I ever told a man what he should or shouldn’t feel disrespected about, I don’t think that would go over well.

          • With that in mind Erin I wonder what is the difference between me clicking the link to the old women category on a porn and preferring to check out the old women I see while I’m say, walking around the mall?

            Are you saying that my clicking of that link to the old woman category, “sends the message that that one feature is the surmount of her worth at that point and time, or rather, her lack of worth” but my preferring to look at the old women at the mall (instead of the younger women, or women my own age) doesn’t?

            Now please bear in mind that I am not trying to say that such objectification never happens. It just seems to me that the threshold for what is considered objectification seems to drop when the conversation is about porn. When talking about objectification/fetishizing in outside of the specific context of porn it seems to take a bit more than choosing to look at a certain category of woman to meet the criteria.

            Usually there is at least something about choosing that certain category of woman and some evidence of actively reducing her to the category she may happen to fall in. But supposedly as soon as porn comes up simply having a preference counts as a reduction?

            Without having categories in porn you would still have those who reduce women to characteristics and those who don’t. The only thing that would really change is that instead of clicking a link to their preference or whatever the watcher is reducing women to, they have to surf through all the porn to find what they are interested in or interested in reducing those women to. In short it would make porn watching more like looking at women in public.

            This is why I say such a thing CAN be bad, but is not inherently bad as you seem to imply.

            • Then by all means, lets keep categorizing women just as men want them categorized so that men can more easily find the type of women they most want to jerk one off too. That’s a good enough reason to you, I guess it should be a good enough reason to me. …except…..except you are still justifying objectifying women because of what *men* want to jerk off too.

              The threshold for what is considered objectification does seem to drop when it comes to porn. Especially is the case for men. Many men are okay with many things being done to women in porn that are highly degrading and objectifying.

              There are many articles that pop up on this site about ways men are objectified in the media. When Huggies came up with a commerical that was degrading to dads, alot of men were very vocal about this kind of degradation. Now most babies wouldn’t see or understand that commerical enough to know Dad was being objectified. But the Dads knew. And they did something about it. And yet, millions of men..millions of good men..men that are fathers to babies and toddlers and young men and women don’t say a peep or fight against how degrading the industry is toward women and to themselves! Porn exploits men and women but it exploits us differently and it exploits women a heck of a lot more by sheer truth that porn is largely made FOR men..largely. Please notice I dind’t say “only”. Huggies puts on a commerical about Fatherhood and men speak up against it enough to get Huggies to change the commerical. Porn puts out all kinds of messages about sexuality and fantasies and images about what women need to be to make men happy..porn calls women al lkinds of names and shows women being hit and slapped andall anyone cay say is “people like what they like”. Objectification suddently becomes “okay”. Why is not okay to see Dad’s and fatherhood degraded and objectified but it’s okay to see womenhood and femininity exploited and degraded?

            • “Then by all means, lets keep categorizing women just as men want them categorized so that men can more easily find the type of women they most want to jerk one off too. That’s a good enough reason to you, I guess it should be a good enough reason to me. …except…..except you are still justifying objectifying women because of what *men* want to jerk off too.”
              It’s a good enough reason to me because I (and a good number of guys around here I bet) have certain preferences in the types of women they look at and jerk off to. Now with that clear does having certain preferences mean that as guys we are necessarily going around thinking that the ONLY reason they can possibly be attractive is because they fit that preference? Does having certain preference mean that as guys we are necessaily going around the writing off women that may not fit those preferences?

              The problem isn’t that a guy can pull up a site where women are categorized by traits. The problem lies with the guys that write women off or not write them off based on those traits. And not just write them off as unattractive by their own opinion but write them off as human beings that matter.

              Take your own preferences in guys (and I’m saying guys because from talking to you so far it seems your sexual preferene is guys, apologies if I’m wrong). I’m sure that when you check guys out you may think something like “Ooooh, he’s got _____.” and you’ll probably look for a moment. Of course that doesn’t mean that him fitting whatever preference you have means that that trait is all he is.
              And I also bet that whether you watch porn or not would makes no difference in whether or not you would think that him fitting your preference is all there is to him.

              The threshold for what is considered objectification does seem to drop when it comes to porn. Especially is the case for men. Many men are okay with many things being done to women in porn that are highly degrading and objectifying.
              Yes that does does happen but that’s not what I meant by lowered threshold. The threshold also seems to drop when it comes to declaring that nearly anything a guy likes or is into is some form of harassment/ojectification/degredation. Behaviors that women seem to have free reign to engage in with men can get a guy brought up on charges if he isn’t careful.

              There are many articles that pop up on this site about ways men are objectified in the media. When Huggies came up with a commerical that was degrading to dads, alot of men were very vocal about this kind of degradation. Now most babies wouldn’t see or understand that commerical enough to know Dad was being objectified. But the Dads knew. And they did something about it. And yet, millions of men..millions of good men..men that are fathers to babies and toddlers and young men and women don’t say a peep or fight against how degrading the industry is toward women and to themselves! Porn exploits men and women but it exploits us differently and it exploits women a heck of a lot more by sheer truth that porn is largely made FOR men..largely. Please notice I dind’t say “only”. Huggies puts on a commerical about Fatherhood and men speak up against it enough to get Huggies to change the commerical. Porn puts out all kinds of messages about sexuality and fantasies and images about what women need to be to make men happy..porn calls women al lkinds of names and shows women being hit and slapped andall anyone cay say is “people like what they like”. Objectification suddently becomes “okay”. Why is not okay to see Dad’s and fatherhood degraded and objectified but it’s okay to see womenhood and femininity exploited and degraded?

              You know why this happens? Because for a long time men have been trying to get some attention brought to the things that harm us and we are told that either we need to do it ourselves or that they aren’t as important as the things that harm women. When it comes to sexuality we are simultaneously told that we should treat women with respect (which I agree with) but that we do not deserve that same respect in kind.

              And about that Huggies ad. Yes it did happen that that ad released and millions of people spoke up about it and the ad was changed. So why are you comparing one ad to an entire industry?

              Since you want to talk about how women are exploited so much more than men when it comes to sex let’s compare that to something that actually does at least remotely close to being somewhat equal on impact. Let’s take that Huggies ad and zoom out a bit….to the fact that when it comes to parenting fathers are generally regarded as live in baby sitters and that ad was just the latest manifestation of that regard.

              Oh and this:
              And yet, millions of men..millions of good men..men that are fathers to babies and toddlers and young men and women don’t say a peep or fight against how degrading the industry is toward women and to themselves!
              Erin I know you’ve been around here for several months and you know good and well that this is not true. There have been plenty of sex and porn threads where guys have done something that I think very much contributes to fighting that degredation. We’ve been openly and honestly talking about WHY we engage in such behaviors in the first place. I know for a fact last week in one post Archy flat out said that he has begun to think about the whether the participation of women in some porn he’s watched was actually consensual. I know for a fact that in many of these posts I’ve spoken up about how I watched that kind of content because I had gotten to a point of “well no one cares about me when it comes to sex so why should I care about anyone else when comes to sex?”.

              Frankly I think the only reason you aren’t hearing any peeps is because the peeps are not the ones you’re looking for. We’re opening up and we’re changing. Believe it or not I think you are contributing to it. You just don’t seem to notice it because we aren’t starting at the finishing line you expect us to be at. We aren’t just condemning porn in the way you prefer so that must me we are defending the worst of the worst behaviors.

              If we’re moving at a pace that doesn’t please you then, sadly, maybe this isn’t the place for you here…

            • Jerking off to women in porn IS NOT OBJECTIFICATION. Even doing it by category is NOT objectification. You have to see that woman as only being a sexual object to you to objectify her, you can watch porn even by category and still see her as a human being. It’s an extremely easy concept to understand.

              Women CAN be objectified in porn and there is a lot of bad porn out there I agree but not all of it is and it matters a lot of what the viewer thinks. Let’s say I look at redheads because I find that attractive, it’s the exact same as my preferences on the street, I am drawn to women with red hair but I still see women as women and not objects. I click the redhead category because it has the highest chance of having women I really like in it, have I thought of them as an object? Have I thought their only worth in life is to turn me on? NO. By that logic a person you have sex with is only worth sex because at the time you’re having sex you need/desire sex.

              There is a HUGE difference in desiring something from someone, and desiring only one thing! I desire seeing these women naked but it’s not all I desire, but it’s impossible to date one as they’re thousands of miles away and probably have a relationship. I don’t look at them as an object, I look at them as a beautiful woman who yes I’d like to have sex with but also get to know because I’m curious about them but porn only really allows you to see them.

              Categories n preferences exist everywhere in life, I’m not objectifying the hairdresser when I look in the category in the phonebook to procure a service from them, so why the fuck would it objectify women to lookup redheads? Is it because it categorizes based on body attributes vs abilities (abilities being their profession, hairdresser, doctor, etc). I refuse to think of women as objects, I don’t think of porn stars as objects, they’re living breathing human beings whom I happen to be sexually attracted to and often fantasize about being in a relationship with. Stop trying to suggest ALL men are degrading women by categorizing them, the only ones who appear to be objectifying women here are the ones suggesting categories = objectification.

          • So basically you’re objectifying women where many men are not? YOU see their worth based on breasts, I see categories such as women WITH small breasts which makes it easier to find content I like, all the whilst I know 100% they’re a woman and still see them as women.

            It’s pretty sad when people commenting negatively on porn often objectify the women to quite a high degree, probably more so than most of the porn viewers.

            • Then that’s what matters Archy..that *you* can find the content *you* want based on how women look. Problem solved. Women are categorized and labled and boxed into a catagory because *you* need that so you can find what you want to masturbate too. I feel so much better about all this!

              It’s pretty sad that you keep trying to imply I am degrading women by speaking up about problems I see with the porn industry as a woman.

            • “It’s pretty sad that you keep trying to imply I am degrading women by speaking up about problems I see with the porn industry as a woman.”
              See, again you have no idea what I am saying. I’m not annoyed or saying you’re degrading women by speaking up over the problems. I’m saying you’re degrading them by objectifying them when you think of categories when myself and other men commenting here are not doing that. Having a preference, looking at women based on that preference is not objectification anymore than hiring a plumber is objectifying him/her because all you need is their skill to fix something. You still see them as human.

              Does watching a movie about soldiers objectify them because you’re only watching them because they’re acting as soldiers? I spoke to someone the other day at a fast food restaurant to order food, did I objectify her because at the time I only needed one thing from her…to process my food order? Are humans “boxed” into categories all day, every day because we are selective in who we approach n ask out n date?

            • Do you stand over the plumber and jerk-off? I’m confused as to what a plumber has to do in a discussion of men, women, relationships and sexuality.

              Do you masturbate to movies about soldiers?

              I’d like to stick on the topic that is specific to men, women, relationships and sexuality. I am not interested in talking about a-sexual situations as comparisons for sexual ones.

            • So only when someone masturbates is it considered objectifying? Why did I bring it up? Because categories exist everywhere, we’re humans, we’re selective, it doesn’t mean we don’t respect people if we look only at those we find attractive n purposely seek them out. It doesn’t mean their worth is solely their looks either, why would it? In all examples you’re using their services in one form of another, but why is sexuality somehow different where it’s indicative of their worth? Masturbating to women by categories does not exclude every other feeling you’d have for women including caring about who they are, what they want, do, desire, etc.

              Hell one could make arguments that one night stands mean the people involved feel the others worth is only sex, but why would that be true? Their main desire may be sex but that doesn’t automatically disable their humanity. There is a huge difference between wanting to masturbate to video of a woman you find beautiful to thinking her only worth is her sexuality, is that really so hard to understand? Hell the category argument could be used to make dating sites seen as bad, do you think age ranges people put on profiles are objectifying?

            • Categories do not exist everywhere as they do in porn. Categories in porn largely categorize women, not men. Men and women are not cateorized equally in this product.

              My questions about what you masturbate to is to highlight the different ofcomparing sexual things to a-sexual things. Sexuality is the topic here. Not A-Sexual things.

              For lots of people that have one night stands, the person is only worth sex to them. Which is why they only want a one night stand with them.

              I understand that many guys here are okay with women being categorized and labeled do to your personal preferences so you can easily pick and choose the ladies you want to look at most. I see how that’s great for you. I don’t see how that’s great for women.

            • The disparity in viewership is largely to blame for the disparity in categorization howevre that is slowly changing. It still doesn’t make it objectifying though unless the viewer ONLY see’s their worth as that body part, instead of people like myself who simply see them as women who are attractive and not an object. Categorization happens everywhere from picking what service you want, to picking body type, age, personality, theme, etc. It’s in all kinds of media, only difference is porn has more of the body-type categorization.

              As a man I don’t care that people categorize men in porn as bears, twinks, fat, thin, yada yadda, everyone has their attraction and if they wanna see people closely resembling that then so be it. The attitudes behind it are the issue, if they can still see them as human then great, if they see them as objects then that isn’t great and that happens regardless of category. The phone book doesn’t limit a persons worth to their occupation, nor should categories in porn limit women’s worth, it’s only one aspect of them and a person seeks to see them, use their service, etc.

              Is it great for women? I think it’s fine but it depends on the rest of culture as well, there does exist the issue that women’s worth in media can largely be about their body which is a huge problem and that can be exacerbated in porn as I feel you might be seeing, but that’s not the fault of categorization but the shitty roles women have had in media. Everyone has a responsibility to ensure they still see people as people and not objects, I make sure I look for a wide range of women in media and read about female ceo’s, mothers, doctors, soldiers, every profession possible. I even read about the lives of pornstars, I talk to some occasionally on their webcam chats such as recently one was doing glass blowing and I talked to her about it whilst being amazed at her creativity. But even most men who jerk off to women I’d say still see them as human.

              Why is categorization of profession (doctor, welder, etc) ok but categorization of bodytype bad?

            • I’m just going to give you what you want: Everything you say is 100% right!
              Good job!

            • If you say so

      • When i talk about porn, I don’t mean the industry, I mean every single piece of pornography made. Sexting, amateur porn, pro porn, the porn I make on webcam with a friend, etc. When I talk about the variety of porn I refer to that wide range of porn, the actual industry’s like the one in the U.S (as in Hustler, internet pro porn, etc) don’t have as much variety.

        I often watch amateur porn of couples in their 40′s, sometimes 50′s though being late 20′s myself that’s reaching the limit of my attraction. I am thankful for the wide range of movies available, if I was stuck with just pro porn however I’d be annoyed as I don’t like much of it.

        “Finally, Porn is not just a scapegoat for poor parenting. Normal, regular, middle class kids are seeing porn too. NOt because their parents are horible but because porn is everywhere now-a-days and it would be pretty much impposible to keep all sexual visuals from their child’s eyes.”
        I didn’t mean it was the parents fault for letting the kid see, I meant the parents, schools, etc are failing on educating teens on GOOD sex. Did your parents teach you that your bf should focus pleasure on your clit to allow you to also orgasm for instance? The kids are learning sex from porn because there is pretty much NO other form of education, they’re guessing at what women or men will like and if they’re watching pro porn it probably won’t show a decent way to have sex, amateur though tends to be more realistic. There are some pro studios though that I believe are now bringing out hardcore porn but in an educational manner as well.

        “mind you that I am saying “equally” show men this way beause we know that currently doesn’t happen, the porn isn’t the egalitarian media you seem to want to respresent it as.”
        I’ve never said porn is egalitarian, do you ever bother reading my comments? I said amateur porn is MORE egalitarian than pro porn, that you can find individual videos which are fully egalitarian and quite a lot of them. Please pay more attention to that. I know full well a lot of porn isn’t egalitarian and I’ve been telling people I hate it and avoid that stuff. I can find PLENTY of videos of egalitarian, sensual sex or loving n caring stuff, real couples. Hell there are plenty of couples that run their own websites, one has even made an article on this site. My philosophy with porn is to detest the bad but love the good, to hold on to the good and allow it to become more popular which I am 100% sure is happening. The internet is largely driving that move as we’re not longer bound by what production companies think people want, but we can search for whatever we want.

        When more women consume porn you’ll probably see more categorization, you can already find it if you google for it. Black man, white man, fat man, thin man, husky, etc. Granted the categories apply more to gay porn as many sites still need to catchup. Sites I have seen though do categorize men and have groups to cut/uncut penis, fat, thin, tall, short, race, transgendered, you name it and it’s probably a group or category.

      • Heisenberg says:

        @Erin
        “Helsenberg, keep in mind that it is also educating young girls that this is what their sexuality should be.”
        Absolutely. 100%. I didn’t mean to assert that only young men are negatively impacted by the porn they watch, although men do consume porn of all mediums at higher rates than women in all age categories. Still, the porn images filter into the mainstream, so that “porno chic” becomes the latest fashion trend for women.

        @Archy
        “yet so many will blame porn for not teaching “real sex” when there is SO MUCH variety in porn that it’s silly to generalize about it like that.”
        I see where you’re coming from, but I disagree. Here’s a tiny bit of research I did…

        Suppose you’re a curious teenager and turn to google to find some porn. Internet search engine stats show that two of the most popular “adult” related search items are “sex” and “porn”. Punch these into google and a website called pornhub.com is returned at the top of the list for “porn”, and near the top for “sex”. If you go to the home page and look at the “Recently Uploaded” section, this is what you’ll find (or at least what I found when I did this on November 3rd):

        Of the 30 videos in this section, 19 featured at least two people (man and woman) engaged in sex acts.

        Of these 19, 7 were threesome scenes;
        7 featured anal sex;
        11 featured acts that could be considered violent or aggressive (I understand these are subjective terms, but slapping, pushing the woman down, and extremely rough anal sex is what I observed);
        12 of them featured the man ejaculating on the woman, most often on her face (interestingly, the videos that did not show this, did not show the man’s climax at all.);
        all 19 videos featured women with no (as in none, zip, zilch) pubic hair.

        Now I tell you this to point out that the stuff that young people are accessing is far from “variety”, nor does it portray what real sex is.

        Sure, you can find all kinds of porn. I’m not interested about you, and what porn you access. I’m concerned about the path that a young, inexperienced, naive person takes when watching porn. If you’re not seeking out content that represents your interests and desires (like you do when you seek “solo” and “amateur” stuff), then you are being fed stuff which is highly unrealistic.

        “…should we be directing kids to the better stuff?”
        Yes. Absolutely. As I said in my original post, we need to break taboos around speaking openly and honestly about sex, and this includes directing young people to porn where there is an equitable balance of power, and the sex that is shown is representative of reality.

        “…the majority of porn produced now is amateur, sexting is the largest porn production in the world and many teenagers use that as a form of porn.”
        In a broad definition of porn, sure. This is true. But we’re not talking about that, and I would argue that the “many teenagers” you speak of might not be limiting their porn consumption to just these mediums.

        • Speaking as I was once a teenager looking up porn exactly how you describe I would start on one site and quickly went to others when I didn’t find content I liked. I dare say many teens will look around, and probably quickly utilize the category system. The problem with user-based porn sites is that one uploader can do a mass upload, and so you see a representation of his/her preferences and not the variety.

          If you think teens can’t do more searching and just look purely at the recent list than I dunno what to tell you, you’d be better off comparing the top 10 videos or something. Variety is there, but being lazy and not searching whilst relying only on recent uploads that are often by 1 person is a great way to fail at finding any sort of diversity in porn. I found a wide variety and I’m sure every other teenager with half a brain can too. I think those that wanna see violent porn will be looking mostly because of other things, maybe angry at women for some reason, maybe they’re kinky lil bastards, who knows but I do know that I wasn’t interested. If she isn’t all smiles, happy, loving it, I am turned off and I highly doubt I am rare on that part.

    • You have to be careful trying to work out “Men’s” porn consumption by watching red-tube. These are the problems.

      1. Porn is cheap to make, so the porn that exists does not equal the porn that people are watching. Most viewers watch a tiny subset of the porn that exists.

      2. Most porn on red-tube is “Pirated” from porn sites that have gone bust.

      3. Sites like red tube try to predict the porn that you want, based on what you have just watched. If you just watched something hardcore, it will give you more of the same. The same is true if you start watching soft-core. (The maths behind this is really clever :D)

      The way to work out what men like, is look at sales of porn. The very soft-core playboy is still america’s best selling men’s magazine, and this represents what most men want to see.

      • Agreed, the porn I watch isn’t always reflective of what I want in a real woman anyway. Porn usage only indicates what they like IN PORN.

      • Okay Mike, if most men want tosee soft-core Playboy stuff then most men want to basically see young beautiful women with large breasts, usually white, possibly airbrushed. Because I don’t remember Playboy being very equal in the age or race of the women it often pursues for it’s magazine. And that’s a better message for women how?

        Although I don’t really agree with your conclusion, I think that men have much more hardcore tastes in porn then ever before but I do agree that men are largely interested in young women with big breasts and women receive that message daily about their worth ot men..or lack of worth on those factors. Even women in relationships with men know that he rather be with a younger version. Because that is largely what men of all ages look at. As a woman, don’t get old because men don’t like you very much anymore. Sadly, women don’t have a say in that. But if we did, you can be sure that we rather be young forever the nbecome the castaways a lot of men view us as for aging.

        • I’d say videos are far more realistic, images are way too easy to photoshop to the pure skin as you say. Even in my portrait photography I avoid doing any major alterations but simply clean up basic stuff that will disappear in a week or 2, or that shouldn’t be there such as pimples, flushed cheeks from extreme heat (hot climate :( ), etc. To do that in video though is extremely time consuming n expensive. Amateur porn is the better choice, there are plenty of sites where users upload their own pics n videos which shows a much more realistic view of men n women.

          • How dare someone have flushed cheeks or a pimple. Dirty, dirty humans with their imperfections and natural body reactions.

            Videos are more deceptive. If an actor and actress are “acting” out a scene, the reality is that neither of them could really be enjoying it, liking it or having fun but as long as they have big smiles on and pretend it’s great, the person watching that is tricked into believing the fantasy of it. And then that person might bring that new information to their own partner and want to “try new things”..because heck, the porn stars where doing it so why shouldn’t they right?

            This can happen even in flim that’s earmarked as “amateur”. There is acutally no real way to know what is truely “amateur” though. There isn’t even a real way to know that both people actually consented to the video being posted or even taped. It’s not unheard of, especially with men, to share images of women they were with among friends or the internet. Although this is something younger men I think are more prone to do. And despite the “amateur label” I suspect a large amount of content is still focused on young, thin, white women.

            Despite some people’s claims that they are ageist, and they watch porn of people from 20-60, i would be interested in actually statistical information of how much they are watching of each age group the most.

            I know you think branding video content “amateur” makes things better. But the points I brought up show that “amateur” content label can be just as deceptive.

            Further, there are actual website dedicated specifically to taking pictures of women in public, without their consent, sometimes even up their skirts or down there shirts, and posting them to share with other people. Women don’t seem to do this to men but there is some amont of popularity among men to do this to women. That is also “amateur” content. So lets not full ourselves that because something is caleld “amateur” it’s “healthy”. Could still be a porn star being paid to do an “amateur” content video, it could be someone that doesn’t even know their vdieo was posted and never consented to it either pubicially or privately.

            We are a way too voyeristic culture. We need to get back to our roots and explore our sexuality more authentically independent from the wants and desires of others.

            • Well I’ll only say that all I’ve been saying is amateur has a higher chance of being better, not that it always is better.

  10. “In adult entertainment, in the sex industry, there is no black and white…the outcome depends on the individual.” Absent from this glowing anecdote of sex-positive exploration are any discussions of the impact of race, class, or gender on workers in the adult entertainment industry. Different career outcomes for sex workers depend heavily upon their background. There is a huge difference between being Sasha Grey and being a queer black Latina prostitute working in the underground economy.

    Moreover, this article seems to ignore the very real persistence of sexism, racism, and heterosexism within the porn industry. Who profits from sex work? Despite increasing female and queer ownership, the majority of the adult entertainment industry is still hetero white male-dominated. While it’s important to note that there are alternative visions that contrast with mainstream adult entertainment designed for hetero white male consumption, one shouldn’t fool themselves into believing that these alternatives currently represent anything but a small minority within the larger industry. The vast majority of pornography remains imbedded in patriarchal, heteronormative, white supremacy.

    Rather than just offering a carte blanche, “it’s all good” appraisal of pornography, we really need to recognize that there is often real exploitation of all workers in the adult entertainment industry. For many sex workers, their job is neither fun, nor sexy, nor even financially rewarding. Focusing on how pornography and adult entertainment are produced, rather than simply focusing on how they are consumed, offers a more meaningful critique. Pornography cannot be truly “sex-positive” unless it is produced in a manner that respects sex workers as more than merely the images and fantasies their labor creates for the consumer.

    • Excellent response Jdub.

    • “Rather than just offering a carte blanche, “it’s all good” appraisal of pornography, we really need to recognize that there is often real exploitation of all workers in the adult entertainment industry.”
      The porn industry already has a plethora of negative critiques of it, yet we get a few positive ones and people are quick to point the finger again n say BBADDDD BADDD. Point out the negatives if you will, but I hope you’re also celebrating the good along with it, otherwise you’re only demonizing a medium over some of it’s content.

      BTW, the majority of porn produced is made by home-users via sexting.

    • Rather than just offering a carte blanche, “it’s all good” appraisal of pornography, we really need to recognize that there is often real exploitation of all workers in the adult entertainment industry. For many sex workers, their job is neither fun, nor sexy, nor even financially rewarding.
      [Emphasis added.]

      Did you happen to notice how you’re absolutist claim of the effect on all workers was contradicted in your very next sentence that allowed for the possibility that some workers *do* find it fun, sexy, or even financially rewarding?

      • That’s a good notice there Marcus.

        When talking about sex workers this seems to happen often. They are all being exploited but some of the are doing it for reasons they actively chose on their own. I guess it allows for people to switch back and forth depending on which answer they need.

  11. Elle, while I don’t agree with your stance 100%, I was with you in your article until I got to the comparisons you made regarding the woman that placed a $20 in your hand and asked you to give her husband the hottest dance he ever had vs. the other women that sat as you described: “ …fingers tightly clasping their drink, teeth set and eyeballs burning holes into our chests.” For one thing, you are clearly shaming the second type of women. Do all women need to be comfortable with strip clubs and the likes of that to be considered sexually open? Do all women need to be pressing $20 dollar bills in strippers hands and asking the stripper to give her man a lap dance to be confident? And even if there is insecurity at play there, is it really that hard to understand why some beautiful, young woman with a perfect body dancing physically on your man is a bit threatening? Does it mean he is going to leave her for that woman? Of course not. But does that mean that it’s any less threatening? Again..of course not!

    You made the connection that the first woman was secure and that the second women weren’t. Maybe that’s true but maybe it’s not. The problem with making such a statement though is that you are actually stereotyping women outside of the industry in an article you’ve written to buck stereotypes about women in the industry.

    See, I would never go to a strip club with my guy. I don’t particularly need to sit next to him and watch him get excited over other women that most likely are younger, hotter with bigger breasts. Does that make me insecure or does that make me practical? Probably a little of both. But I’m not ashamed that I would be insecure about another woman dancing on him. Why should I be ashamed of that? Why do we believe that what people feel insecure about should be treated with shaming them for it?

    I would never press a $20 dollar bill in your hand and ask you to work up my man. I’m a possessive little thing and what is mine, is mine. That’s me. And I’m not ashamed of that. It doesn’t mean I’m sexual prude or that I don’t like sex. It just means that I’ve set the peramoters for what is okay in my relationship for me. And isn’t that actually what you are advocating for? Setting the perometers for yourself about what is okay and what isn’t without being shamed for it? So why would you do that to women that come to the club and clearly feel uncomfortable with the situation but are clearly trying to be “cool” for their men?

    I think that women today have a lot to contend with regarding sexuality. We get a lot of messages about what our sexuality should be. Such as that we are “sluts” if we enjoy it or “prudes” if we don’t want a strange girl gyrating on our man. We are told to be “sexy” but don’t be a “tease”. … Whatever that really means. We are expected to sit next to our man while he enjoys other women visually or even physically. We are suppose to feel open and warm and vulnerable toward him when he is done enjoying those women so he can finish with us. We are suppose to be okay with men looking at younger women and lusting after them even as we age. We are suppose to feel confident in our bodies even when our men are oggling women with fake breasts and perfect bodies, natural or not…there is a lot of expectations on women today. Maybe it’s time we start recognizing that.

    Maybe the unrealistic projections of women in the porn business don’t affect you. Maybe you simply are more confident than me. But then again, maybe not. I think one of the biggest issues in the industry is the unrealistic projections of women in the business. Projections that many young boys and girls are taking in as if it was gospel on how they should look and act. If sex is suppose to be about men and women and what we both like, then unrealistic projections of women in porn can’t exist. If sex is about equal exploration and diversity, then stereotypes about women in porn wouldn’t still be in the industry. However, they still largely are. And I can’t easily shrug my shoulders at that and say “oh well, it’s fantasy”. It’s fantasy that a largely male audience wants to see women portrayed as. And I don’t think that representation is positive to womanhood in general.

    It’s really difficult being a woman today. I think a lot of women end up feeling like failures with their own femininity because we see so many visuals of what other people what us to look like and conform too or act like. And I think porn is one part of that equation. I don’t think it gives women the freedom to explore sexuality with comfortableness and ease. I think it can make them feel ashamed for the ways they fail to measure up to what men want them to really be. And we get hit with those messages 24/7.

    • I think her dislike of the finger-clutchers was that they went along and had hatred for her, in her own workplace. Do you realize how insulting it is to have the gf’s/or bf’s if it happens, come into her workplace n look at her with contempt n hatred? They made the choice to attend the stripclub, the least they can do is show her some respect. Why attend if you hate the stripper? Because your bf wants you to? That’s not her fault yet these women are making it about her when really the hatred should be to the bf that ignores their wishes. Hell if I was her, I’d be pissed off too with jealous gf’s or bf’s attending. I’m not sure she is trying to judge “prudes, but more the prudes who hate her for doing her job.

      You do realize that women have to be extremely hot to come even close to 1/10th or less of the attraction many men have to their partner right? That for some he may find her physically attractive but it’s not going to be anywhere near the level he feels for his wife, and is there because of the sexual confidence more than the looks? Of course some will be there because they do find them hotter than their partners but it’s something that should be asked of the guy and not just assumed outright. Seeing sexuality itself is sexy, looks are helpful but as long as they are somewhat attractive it’s probably largely about the sexuality. It’s a choice each couple has to make, I personally have no real desire to goto a stripclub if I have a partner and the only time I would is probably bachelor parties.

      • So now you know these women’s feelings so much that you know the carry “hatred” for her? They can’t simply be sad, uncomfortable or upset that their boyfriend actually wanted to do this without it being automatically disrespectful to the stripper? Also, when does the respect for the actual partner come into play?

        You don’t actually know what these women are feeling. I bet it’s a combination of feelings and confusion which lead them to make the choice to agree to go to the strip club in the first place even though they aren’t fully comfortable with it. Women aren’t perfect people. It doesn’t mean they simply “hate” on other women or that they are being insulting just because their feelings aren’t all happy and joyful and sexual all the time, even in sexual environments.

        I think a lot of women try to navigate the tricky world of commercial pornography when it comes to their boyfriends the best they can. They don’t want to be the Grinch that stole away his young hot porn babes and all the fantasies he carries deep in his heart of other women that aren’t her. So some women, while not being fully comfortable with it, try not to take away their boyfriend’s “fun”. Because as Elle pointed out, you are considered the “cool” girlfriend if you pay for lap dances for your boyfriend and look at porn of the kind of women he wants to really be banging with him. A lot of women feel backed into a corner where they have to accept these things to keep him happy. So is it fair for a woman to agree to go to a strip club if she isn’t fully comfortable with it? No. But it’s not far fetched to see why some women do agree even though they aren’t totally happy with it. And that doesn’t mean she is disrespecting the strippers. Is it fair for a man to want to openly oogle and get lap dances from other women infront of his woman? I don’t think it is either. Yet there is a lot of social commentary from men directly that this is what “cool” girlfriends do.

        And no, I don’t agree that women have to be “extremely hot” to come even close to 1/10th of less of the attraction many men have to their partners. If that was truly the case, strip clubs and pornography wouldn’t flourish like they do among men. If men were so happy and loving and enthralled in the beauty of their own partners, they wouldn’t be seeking out visuals of other women like the majority of men seem to do today. I really don’t think most men would really even know what to do with themselves without pornographic visuals.

        By the way, men don’t just go to strip clubs for bachelor parties. And even if men are going during a bachelor party, doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to bang the stripper any less!

        • “If men were so happy and loving and enthralled in the beauty of their own partners, they wouldn’t be seeking out visuals of other women like the majority of men seem to do today. I really don’t think most men would really even know what to do with themselves without pornographic visuals.”
          What makes you think this? It could be that men are more likely to be polygamous so his partners beauty is a moot point if he still has desires for others. I feel you’re trying to find simple answers in an extremely complex system, it’s impossible to say men want this men want that because we differ so much. Speaking as a man who has loved I can tell you that yes it takes a supermodel to come even close to her beauty and never ever will it surpass her beauty. I’m sure there are many men like me, and I’m sure there are probably others who aren’t like that too. Some men are poly, some are monogymous.

          “So now you know these women’s feelings so much that you know the carry “hatred” for her?”
          I should have clarified that the eye burner ones were the ones I was talking about, not just anyone who was nervous. There are a wide range of reasons someone might go, but to go there with contempt n hatred for a stripper is what bothers me. Being nervous about it doesn’t bother me, I can understand why many would be nervous especially if they are extremely monogymous to the point they get upset and jealous when their partners even LOOK at others.

          These debates make me wonder if men are more poly than women and if porn is simply a an adequate way to be monogymous in a relationship but still exercise some poly tendancies enough to stave off that desire, a happy medium I guess. But considering how many women are looking at porn, romance novels, fantasizing about others it could be that it’s more just a certain portion of the population itself and not more men or women. I guess it’s just something a couple has to work out for themselves.

          “Is it fair for a man to want to openly oogle and get lap dances from other women infront of his woman? I don’t think it is either.”
          Depends on the couple, my woman can look n oogle at a stripper, a lapdance might start making me feel uncomfy. As long as she’s bringing that sexual energy home to share with me and still finds me attractive all is well. I think some of us aren’t thinking of it in the manner of sexual energy for the stripper OR the partner, but for both, allowing everyone to raise the sexual energy and for some that will culminate in the great sex at the end of the night as the article I believe suggests. For others the mere act of looking at someone else will get them in the doghouse with the partner.

          To me this sounds more like mismatched sexualities + inconsideration for the partners feelings, both with the man n woman in your comment. The man because he’s going to a strip club, and the woman because he’s imposing control over his sexuality to some degree, her way of thinking isn’t automatically the right way but it’s something both of them would need to discuss n work out an acceptable compromise. It may be that they aren’t very good for each other because their sexuality is so mismatched. Not everyone makes a great couple together.

          • Archy: “It could be that men are more likely to be polygamous so his partners beauty is a moot point if he still has desires for others. I feel you’re trying to find simple answers in an extremely complex system, it’s impossible to say men want this men want that because we differ so much. Speaking as a man who has loved I can tell you that yes it takes a supermodel to come even close to her beauty and never ever will it surpass her beauty. I’m sure there are many men like me, and I’m sure there are probably others who aren’t like that too. Some men are poly, some are monogymous.”

            Funny you should say that you think I am the one looking for the simple answers when you are often the one that wants to wrap up the discussion in “everyone is different, oh well, lets move on.” Your response basically is, “Some men are poly, some are monogamous”. You seem to think that solves the problem and answers all the questions. Not too sure why you think I want the simple answer when you repeatedly showcase a “everyone is different” mentality which leads me to believe that you don’t really want to talk about anything much more complicated then that.

            “I should have clarified that the eye burner ones were the ones I was talking about, not just anyone who was nervous. There are a wide range of reasons someone might go, but to go there with contempt n hatred for a stripper is what bothers me. Being nervous about it doesn’t bother me, I can understand why many would be nervous especially if they are extremely monogymous to the point they get upset and jealous when their partners even LOOK at others.”

            Again, how about we stop degrading those women that might be feeling angry by calling them simply “eye burners”. How about we look at the entire picture and the range of the feelings EVERYONe can be feeling in that situation..Happiness, horniness, sadness, nervousness, jealously and even anger. Women aren’t perfect Archy. Like you said, there are all kinds of reasons a woman might agree to go. And we should try to understand why she feels angry just as much as why she may feel jealous or sad or nervous right?

            Archy: :These debates make me wonder if men are more poly than women..”

            Then perhaps these men shouldn’t commitment to a monogamous relationship.There is nothing wrong with not making a monogamous commitment to someone if you can’t or aren’t monogamous. But it’s not fair to say that you want to be monogamous and then find all these little short-cuts around the fringes of it to “play” for at for a little bit.

            Archy:…and if porn is simply a an adequate way to be monogymous in a relationship but still exercise some poly tendancies enough to stave off that desire, a happy medium I guess

            It is an adequate way for you. It’s a “happy medium” for you. That doesn’t mean it’s an adequate way for everyone else or a happy medium for everyone else. If someone doesn’t want to be monogamous then they shouldn’t commit to a relationship. that’s okay.

            Archy: “Depends on the couple, my woman can look n oogle at a stripper, a lapdance might start making me feel uncomfy”

            How would you feel if she wanted to be the stripper? Not have any men touch her or give lap dances..just dance around on stage showing off her body? Would you be okay with that?

            Usually I find that men are not okay with their women displaying their bodies to other men. But their men are usually okay with other women displaying their bodies to them.

            Archy: “As long as she’s bringing that sexual energy home to share with me and still finds me attractive all is well.”

            And that works for you and that is okay. But for a lot of women, they don’t want the sexual energy to be from other women and then him come home to her. That’s not flattering to her and it’s not a turn on.

            Archy: “To me this sounds more like mismatched sexualities + inconsideration for the partners feelings, both with the man n woman in your comment. The man because he’s going to a strip club, and the woman because he’s imposing control over his sexuality to some degree, her way of thinking isn’t automatically the right way but it’s something both of them would need to discuss n work out an acceptable compromise. It may be that they aren’t very good for each other because their sexuality is so mismatched. Not everyone makes a great couple together.”

            Everything is so easy for you! It’s amazing.

            • “You seem to think that solves the problem and answers all the questions. Not too sure why you think I want the simple answer when you repeatedly showcase a “everyone is different” mentality which leads me to believe that you don’t really want to talk about anything much more complicated then that.”
              No I say that because of your (and others) extremely high level of negative generalizations of what men are, you speak of them regularly as a single group with similar ideas when it’s more a collection of individuals and impossible to say what a man wants, or what a woman wants. There are many many many reasons why people look at porn, why they cheat, why they do this, or that. The simple answer is trying to think of men as a single group wanting young women for instance. I haven’t wrapped up anything, you’re just assuming I have but I’m leaving it open to talk about those individual types of men.

              “Again, how about we stop degrading those women that might be feeling angry by calling them simply “eye burners”.”
              How is it degrading them? If they’re angry at looking at a stripper with contempt n hatred (I don’t mean all of the women who are nervous or angry there, but specifically the eyeburners) then wouldn’t they be eyeburners?

              “And we should try to understand why she feels angry just as much as why she may feel jealous or sad or nervous right?”
              Did I say we shouldn’t? I just think it’s a bad idea to goto someones workplace n look at them with daggers or whatever, if you don’t like them then LEAVE, regardless of how you feel it’s not her fault so why give her negative energy?

              “Then perhaps these men shouldn’t commitment to a monogamous relationship.There is nothing wrong with not making a monogamous commitment to someone if you can’t or aren’t monogamous. But it’s not fair to say that you want to be monogamous and then find all these little short-cuts around the fringes of it to “play” for at for a little bit.”
              Agreed, my guess is many don’t particular realize it until after the relationship has progressed far or feel they can suppress it, maybe some suppress it with porn or strippers. Sadly it can take quite a while to understand yourself and in the end they both suffer, he suffers as he is in the wrong type of relationship and so is she. I guess that’s the sad thing about feelings n knowing yourself.

              “How would you feel if she wanted to be the stripper? Not have any men touch her or give lap dances..just dance around on stage showing off her body? Would you be okay with that?”
              Probably. I’m more concerned about how others would treat her, and my anger would be with them. As long as she is in a safe place with as much respect as possible I should be ok.

              “Everything is so easy for you! It’s amazing.”
              What’s easy about it? I haven’t closed off any discussion, I have given my opinion. It’s not generalizing that men do X. These are individuals in relationships and every relationship has an individual response, hence why advice has to be tailor made specifically to that relationship to have any real effect.

    • Erin, I don’t think anyone, from strippers all the way to Archy, would shame you for having and abiding by your own sexual boundaries. If that includes avoiding strip clubs and porn, and even making it a condition of entering a relationship that your man avoids them, too, then cool for you if that’s what works and keeps you feeling happy and secure and sexy and all those other good things. There’s no shame in that.

      What’s abundantly clear from your many comments on porn and sex work more generally is that you have no tolerance for anyone else thinking any aspect of it is ever okay. At least metaphorically, you come across as that angry woman in the club staring daggers at everyone in it, and since you come in to stare those daggers night after night (metaphorically), it gets old. The first night, maybe you didn’t know what to expect and your discomfort was misinterpreted as something else. When you keep coming back to tell everyone how shameful it all is…well, that’s just not very neighborly.

      You also mentioned twice how it’s really tough these days for women and their sexuality. I concede without reservation that it’s tough, but it has always been tough, and that’s regardless of gender or orientation. It’s one of those generational illusions that everyone thinks it’s always tougher “these days”. Nowadays sexuality is influenced by the Internet, so that presents new challenges compared to pre-digital eras. A generation or so before that, AIDS happened, so that made sexuality harder than before. Before that, there was the pill, which posed previously unknown challenges to navigating modern sexuality. And so on. It’s like the cliché of kids “growing up so fast these days”, or “having no respect”, which is true, but so unchanging as to mean practically nothing. Being a woman in the age of Internet porn and legal access to contraception, antibiotics, and abortion undoubtedly presents a unique and difficult set of circumstances for handling one’s sexuality, but that doesn’t mean pre-industrial women who didn’t have those things ever had it easy. I think women today (or any day) have it different, not harder.

      • Heisenberg says:

        @Marcus Williams
        “What’s abundantly clear from your many comments on porn and sex work more generally is that you have no tolerance for anyone else thinking any aspect of it is ever okay. ”

        I don’t think that is true at all. I find your comments to be more in the way of this blinkered thinking. You seem to think that because you don’t see objectification, then it doesn’t exist. This is also evident in the way you use a semantic argument to discredit another poster. You comparing the categorisation of food, to the categorisation of women in porn is in poor taste. A woman is a human being, and shouldn’t be reduced to a single body part or aesthetic quality. They shouldn’t be grouped according to these characteristics.

        • You seem to think that because you don’t see objectification, then it doesn’t exist.

          Then allow me to clarify. If Erin makes statements that make objectification a universal and harmful consequence of men consuming porn, that argument includes me, as a consumer of porn. If I and several other men provide counterexamples to the mindset and regard for women that she argues is inevitable, then the universality of her argument is defeated. That does not mean that other men aren’t capable of the kinds of bad consequences of porn that Erin decries. My argument isn’t, “I don’t, therefore no one does.” It’s, “I don’t, and many other men I know don’t, so your thesis that [these terrible consequences] are the inevitable byproduct of porn/strip clubs/sex work is incorrect.”

          By calling someone a “woman”, you’re already describing a subset of human beings that have characteristics in common that the subset “not woman” doesn’t share. Labeling the groups does not reduce someone to something less than human or exclude the possibility of also belonging to other equally or more important categories. If you describe your nationality, gender, orientation, age, or a million other things, it’s all grouping. The dehumanizing part only comes if you think a particular group, like maybe 36-year-old pansexual Lithuanians, ought to be treated as less than human. If you think 36-year-old pansexual Lithuanians deserve all the respect and rights of any other group, then using the labels hasn’t “reduced” them to anything. It is literally senseless to argue that there exists anything which should somehow resist categorization. By identifying what that thing is, you’ve already categorized it.

          Could you elaborate how a “semantic argument” is a bad thing? Semantics is literally about meaning, so if one person is arguing that labels in porn mean one thing and another argues they mean something else, that’s a semantic argument on both sides. If you’re not using semantic arguments in such a discussion, your argument would literally be meaningless.

          • Great comment.

            “Then allow me to clarify. If Erin makes statements that make objectification a universal and harmful consequence of men consuming porn, that argument includes me, as a consumer of porn. If I and several other men provide counterexamples to the mindset and regard for women that she argues is inevitable, then the universality of her argument is defeated.”
            Yes x 1billion suns. The broadbrush universal statements are wrong as they’re instantly disproven on these boards by the men commenting. It truly makes me wonder if she understands men at all, I’ve been extremely open in my own mind n porn viewing to try get others to see that men aren’t as bad as some people think and men aren’t a collective. Her negative generalizations paint ME as a porn user, and you, as negative and she is telling us what we think. I sense zero tolerance from her and others like her, just shameful eyes and how porn has pretty much no good points, it’s demonization of porn and men.

            I doubt any of us mind her having boundaries, I agree with probably half of what she says (I differ on the rate of bad). But it’s like were seen as men who look at porn that are automatically degrading women and think so negatively of them. It’s very much a case of sounding like “If you look at porn you think lowly of women”.

          • Marcus, and If I provide counterexamples to your counterexamples does that mean your argument is similarly defeated?

            I feel like you and other men feel like you get to tell women what should and shouldn’t make them feel degraded. That because you don’t think it’s degrading to categorize women, it simply isn’t. That because you love and respect the women in your life, how you deal with porn is perfect. Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t.

            I know there are things I can do that make my partner feel disrespected. If he did them to me, they wouldn’t cause me to feel the same way. But knowing that and understanding and relating to men makes me a better person, knowing that giving my partner what he needs, respect, makes me a better girlfriend. So I try to understand the way my actions make him feel disrespected even if I don’t agree. If I am doing something that makes my man feel disrespected, I stop doing it. I know there are things that make men feel devalued that even if they were done to me wouldn’t make me feel the same way. But just because it wouldn’t make me feel the same way doesn’t mean it’s not infact disrespectful. We actually had a recent small argument about this and I have been very mindful about changing my behavior. I really care about him and respect him and want to show him that and that’s more important to me then to keep doing something that wouldn’t make me feel disrespected.

            By the way, just because you don’t think you disrespect women and you think the actions of the men you know aren’t disrespectful to women, doesn’t mean I’m incorrect or that my comments about porn and strip clubs and the byproduct of these, especially on relationships is incorrect.

            I also think the issue of respect and disrespect is very complicated. Someone can treat someone disrespectfully and not hold them in disrespect. I respect my boyfriend but sometimes I do things that ARE infact disrespectful to him. I’m human. I’m not perfect. I’m doing the best I can but I make mistakes. Life is a learning process and ultimately, I want to show him respect.

            You already know what I think about porn and how it disrespects women so I won’t get into again talking about how porn shames women by labeling them. I understand that you think this is perfectly find behavior but if you talk to most women, there are a lot of women out there that don’t like that they are labeled based on their bodies.

            • Marcus, and If I provide counterexamples to your counterexamples does that mean your argument is similarly defeated?

              No, because it’s a matter of simple logic. Consider a hypothetical exchange as follows:

              Person A: All movies scare everyone.
              Person B: I am not scared by romantic comedies.
              Person A: You’re completely dismissing horror films like Saw, The Shining, and Ishtar.
              Person B: You didn’t say some movies are scary to some people, you said all movies scare all people. I gave an example of a not-scary movie.
              Person A: But all movies do scare everyone. There’s Halloween, The Exorcist, Jaws, Gigli…

              Person A made an absolute argument that was easily defeated. Person B’s counterargument does not assert the opposite absolute, so when Person A provides additional examples of movies that some people find scary, he neither saves his own argument, nor weakens Person B’s. Similarly, it would not strengthen A’s absolute argument by divulging that due to his sensitivity to surround sound and a fear of the dark, A is literally afraid of all movies in theaters, no matter what kind of movie is showing. That *would* support the assertion, “I find all movies scary”, but not the generalized form that, “All movies scare everyone.”

              I get that porn makes you feel objectified. That’s a feeling, so it’s pretty inarguable if I take you at your word, which I do. You go those extra steps, though, arguing that all porn objectifies all women, all women feel objectified by it, the very act of consuming it is objectification, and so on. Those aren’t “some people” arguments, which is why they *are* defeated by even one counterexample, though you have been presented with much more than one, time and again. You keep defending your feeling, which is unnecessary, while apparently thinking you’re defending how it applies to everyone in the world, which is plainly wrong.

              By the way, just because you don’t think you disrespect women and you think the actions of the men you know aren’t disrespectful to women, doesn’t mean I’m incorrect or that my comments about porn and strip clubs and the byproduct of these, especially on relationships is incorrect.

              This is literally an assertion by you that you know my and other men’s minds better than we know our own, and that whatever you think is our attitude towards you or other women, IS our attitude. If I was to tell you that through my powers of intuition, I know what really motivates you to argue against porn, and that you don’t really feel the way you say you do about it, you would be justified in finding that a rather presumptuous and arrogant claim. Similarly, I don’t take seriously your assertions that you know how porn makes me feel about women better than I know how it makes me feel about women, because I pull my evidence about that claim from my brain, while you pull yours from your…other source.

            • Amen Marcus, Amen. Being told what we think by a female takes the cake. Not even other men have the right to tell me what I think.

            • Marcus: No, because it’s a matter of simple logic. Consider a hypothetical exchange as follows:
              Person A: All movies scare everyone.”

              Your statement is already invalid. I never said “all” porn movies *insert anything* here. I said a large pool of porn is degrading and I think largely a majority of what I say about porn applies. But I never said it was “all”. I do think a majority of what men are looking at is largely objectifying of women. I think there are movies and material that exists that isn’t objectifying but I don’t think it largely exists for the general public and I don’t think it’s the stuff most men are sincerely drawn to.

              Even if material does exist that isn’t objectifying, that still doesn’t deal with issues concerning people that already have a partner and how those people use material and what they think in relation to other people or their own partner.

              Marcus: “I get that porn makes you feel objectified. That’s a feeling, so it’s pretty inarguable if I take you at your word, which I do. You go those extra steps, though, arguing that all porn objectifies all women, all women feel objectified by it, the very act of consuming it is objectification, and so on. Those aren’t “some people” arguments, which is why they *are* defeated by even one counterexample, though you have been presented with much more than one, time and again. You keep defending your feeling, which is unnecessary, while apparently thinking you’re defending how it applies to everyone in the world, which is plainly wrong.”

              And I get that porn makes you feel good Marcus. That’s a feeling as well. Porn making you feel good is also pretty inarguable. So I take your word for it. You go those extra steps, though, not to really intellectually talk about porn, but to shame me and put me down. Interesting how little of your discussion is actually about porn and is actually about targeting me. Really, I can feel your anger and dislike for me right over the internet. It manages to seep out of your posts whenever you address me. You keep claiming your so “logical” but very little of your argument is actually all that logical. Porn makes you feel good. That’s all you need to know to say it is good. But you actually haven’t proven anything about it yourself. You haven’t used any actual facts. You just used your own opinion. Which is actually what discussion is about amazingly enough!

              Further, it isn’t just about my “feelings”. I’ve been very vocal in describing how I’ve come to those conclusions and they are infact, logical reasons. There is logic in the idea that categorizing women based on their body parts is objectifying.There is logic in believing that a large pool of porn doesn’t really represent women very well. But keep in mind that none of us live in a vacuum where feelings aren’t logical and logic is always proved through facts and figures. Sometimes feelings can be logial and sometimes things are true even when they can’t be proved immediately. Science knows this well!

              I am not simply defending my feelings although my feelings are a part of the discussion for sure. Just as it’s clear your feelings are part of the discussion although I think you like to believe they aren’t. Which is why you become rather belligerent and mean-spirited. Naturally, in any discussion involving relationships between people, feelings are going to be involved. And just because people have feelings, doesn’t mean they are raving lunatics with no logic behind their thoughts.

              I said: “By the way, just because you don’t think you disrespect women and you think the actions of the men you know aren’t disrespectful to women, doesn’t mean I’m incorrect or that my comments about porn and strip clubs and the byproduct of these, especially on relationships is incorrect.”

              Marcus: “This is literally an assertion by you that you know my and other men’s minds better than we know our own, and that whatever you think is our attitude towards you or other women, IS our attitude. “

              Actually it’s an assertion to the agency I have in setting the terms of what I consider disrespectful treatment of my own gender just as you and Archy are allowed to set those terms for yourself.

              Which is why I talked about experiences I had with boyfriends about things I did that they didn’t consider respectful toward them even though I wasn’t trying to actively disrespect them. There are things that men see as disrespectful that would be good for women to pay attention to and acknowledge and practice so that she doesn’t make a man feel disrespected by something she’s done. The same applies to men. This will be different for couples and it will be the same at times too.

              Marcus: “Similarly, I don’t take seriously your assertions that you know how porn makes me feel about women better than I know how it makes me feel about women, because I pull my evidence about that claim from my brain, while you pull yours from your…other source.”

              You are not pulling anything from your brain when you make emotionally charged personal attacks as you did above. Simply claiming you pull things from your brain and I pull them from a “other source” has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with your emotional opinion of me.

              By the way, where exactly have you made logical claims about this topic? I don’t see any facts and statistics and number or cited sources. Where are these logical claims?

              Further, did you notice how you said, “I know how it makes me feel about women…..” and tied that in to a logical basis of those feelings being pulled from your brain? Why would I be any different? Feelings and logic are connected. Our feelings are somewhat going to be about our opinion. Even for you. You are not an emotionless robot. Either am I. Why try to put me down and say “That’s only your feelings” and then go on to talk about your own feelings in relation to women?

              I sincerely don’t get your vitrol toward me personally. All because I think the majority of porn is degrading and you don’t? Even though you haven’t actually proven that it isn’t. You just believe it isn’t.

              And let me be clear again and state something to you that I stated to Archy. I don’t think this is a black and white issue. I also never said that if a man likes porn, he hates women. I do naturally have concerns about men regarding how they view women when they enjoy material that is largely objectifying, stereotyping and degrading of women. But that doesn’t mean I think that man is *bad*. Infact, as I said to Archy, I think many good men look at porn. Many men that are loving husband and fathers. But that doesn’t mean that these men are perfect or that them looking at porn is good. You can see the distinction right? You see the difference is saying that porn is degrading toward women and questioning how that fits into the lives of men that are infact loving husbands and fathers and flat out saying men simply hate and degrade women right? The first is what I’ve said from the start, the second is what you seem to be think I am saying even thoughs words were actually never logically written.

              You are allowed to set the terms for how you feel disrespected or how you feel men are disrespected. I am sorry that you don’t like me doing the same.

        • “You comparing the categorisation of food, to the categorisation of women in porn is in poor taste. A woman is a human being, and shouldn’t be reduced to a single body part or aesthetic quality. They shouldn’t be grouped according to these characteristics.”
          The thing is HE is not doing that, SHE is. He does not see them as single body parts or qualities when looking at a category. There’s a massive difference between clicking “large breasts” and seeing women with large breasts vs only wanting to see the breasts alone. This is an extremely easy concept to understand, people have desires, tastes, their mind mentally categorizes everything anyway and they will naturally go towards whatever their taste is. That’s not objectification, that’s normal human sexual behaviour and shouldn’t be shamed. If you see it as reducing women’s worth to that body part than the problem lies with your way of thinking, as YOU are objectifying them.

          The other men replying here as saying they do not objectify via categories, they still see full human beings yet 2 others who happen to be talking about the negatives of porn are the ones who see categories as a sign of women’s worth, they see only her value in that body part. So who has the problem here? The most disgusting comments and thoughts I’ve read so far are from the anti-porn people who are objectifying the women in porn and treating them like their value is a body part or 2. The pro-porn people seem to be the only ones here who can look at categories whilst seeing a full human, why is that? Why can I see a complete human?

          If you like redheads and ask out a redhead, are you objectifying her??? If you do online dating and check a preference for women, are you objectifying them? Categories serve a use, we all have preferences, I’d like to say we all can see the value of a whole woman but for some that seems impossible huh?

      • Agreed 100%. There is a great sense of no tolerance, which comes across as demonizing porn and men so often.

        “When you keep coming back to tell everyone how shameful it all is…well, that’s just not very neighborly.”

      • I think I tend to be exuberant about this discussion because I don’t really ever feel like most men are ever really listening. I feel like most men like porn and that’s really all that matters to most men. Not real women. That’s how I feel whether it’s right or wrong or whether you think that’s worthwhile or not.

        I am angry. I’m sad too. Discouraged. Disappointed. Frustrated. I feel a lot of different things. Just as I’m sure you do Marcus. I don’t really appreciate you telling me what I have to say gets old though. That comes of as you belittling me. That’s the kind of thing that leads me to believe you don’t really care what I have to say and you don’t respect it. You didn’t tell Archy that even though Archy talks about this subject as much, if not more, than I do. You never told Archy what he has to say is old. Just me. Archy says a lot of the same things too you know?

        You feel like I am telling you it’s shameful. And I feel like porn shames women. And I feel like when I try to point out the ways that I think porn shames women, that men simply don’t really care because they simply like porn a lot. So where does that really leave us? You feeling bitter and angry toward me and feeling like I am shaming men or you or porn and chalking me up as just silly or angry women whose opinion is really of no consequence and me feeling frustrated and discouraged and devalued because I don’t ever feel like anything is actually getting better between men and women. Doesn’t really sound like it leaves either one of us in a great place.

        I guess I just feel like most guys are looking for justifications in favor of porn more then they really want to have a real honest dialogue about it or hear about the things women struggle with or be honest about how they use porn. I also don’t think men get the extent of how discouraging porn can be for some women and how the expectations of women’s bodies and actions through sexual fantasy and media is really exploited.

        I don’t think we’ve gotten to a place where men are being honest about how much they really use porn, what they think about when they use porn, how they compare their partners or think of their partners in comparison of porn or what exactly they are looking at it. I think most people keep what they are really doing behind closed doors. So instead of having a real discussion about it all, it gets glossed over with generalities. Generalities that porn is good, that it’s healthy because sex is healthy, general comments are made about how much variety there is in porn, general comments about how “some” men do this and “some” men do that but rarely do men reflect complete honesty about what *they* are doing and how much of the time they are doing it. And then a lot of men express anger when women come to their own conclusions based on the general statements some men make. Or come to conclusions based on their own experiences and what they have seen men do and what they see men say.

        You’re ready to think the worse of me instead of seeing the humanity in me. You see me just as some angry woman who wants to shame you and other men and who is a mean lady who wants to take away men’s fun. That’s not who I am but that’s how you see me. While women like Elle, are given compliments because she gives married men lap dances at wive’s requests…. or not at wives’ requests since I am sure many men have gotten lap dances from her that never told their wives what they were doing. She gets complimented because she shames women that try to be the good gf/wife and go to the strip club because their men want other women to dance for them or on them. She gets compliments because she freely expresses her sexuality with other men. But women that aren’t comfortable with these things? We get told we are “angry”. And that’s all we are.

        And insinuations that we just want to be mean women that take away all of men’s fun. I guess I am a real kill joy. But all I ever wanted was not to feel like there was this wall up between men and myself and that’s all I ever feel. And I feel that wall even more when it comes to how men interact with pornography and strippers and the things men say about real women vs strippers and porngraphy.

        I use to hear men say, “I only look at it once-in-awhile”. I don’t hear men say that anymore. Men don’t look at porn “once-in-awhile” anymore. That’s really discouraging to me. It’s become a bigger part of men’s lives and I’m afraid that it’s causing more disconnection for men from real life average regular women. It seems like men aren’t really just happy with you as one woman. That today you need to perform all kinds of tricks that he’s seen in porn so he can feel good. I feel like men don’t really value women much. And when I try to talk about the ways it comes off that men aren’t valuing women, I am told that I am devaluing men or that I am just angry or bitter or jealous. I don’t get how it’s devaluing to men to say that calling women “sluts” in porn seems really degrading toward women. Or that labeling women by their body parts is degrading to men but that it’s not degrading to women? I don’t get that.

        It seems that most men are more often defending pornography and women in pornography then they are open to hearing out their own partners. Average everyday women get accolades when they press $20s in strippers hands and ask her to give him a lap dance he will never forget. Women like me that talk about the concerns, hurts and frustrations get told that I am “angry” and that what I have to say is “old” and not very important.

        I feel like the value men find from the orgasms they get from porn is what is of value to them. I feel like men, on some level, like seeing women abused verbally and physically since so much of this is in porn. It isn’t in porn because only a few men want to see that. It isn’t in porn because no men want to see it. It’s in porn, and it’s in porn a lot, because that’s what a lot of men want to see. Maybe it’s not what you want to see. But porn is fueled on what men want to see. Not what women want to see. Not what doesn’t sell. It’s fueled on what sells and what gets hits.

        I feel like men will more often defend women in porn against their own partners then they will actually stand up for their own real life partners. I feel like it’s this wall between women and men. Me and men. Considering how I look at it vs how easily accepting and accommodating men are of it. I feel like real women loose. We aren’t important. What is important to men is to have pornography no matter what that pornography is. And if you are bothered by what your man is looking at , you are uptight or selfish or jealous or all these awful things. I feel like it’s not about average women being more important today or men being able to be happy with average women.
        I don’t think the anger I feel about porn discredits my view point though. Anymore than it would discredit someone’s views if porn made them happy. Just don’t confuse my anger about porn to mean hatred for people in porn or for the people that use porn. But yes, I am angry about porn. I feel so extremely discouraged by it and I feel like I am fighting a loosing battle since men today look at more porn then ever before. Average real women minus 1000, porn and women in porn plus 2000.

        I’m sad that it’s such a big part of men’s lives today. I’m sad that a man can have a beautiful, kind and loving wife/gf and maybe even kids but a part of him still needs pornography. And that men will tell women how insecure or awful they are if they feel hurt by his porn use of women that don’t look anything like her and aren’t anything she could ever be. That his idea of the epitome of femininity is nothing what a real woman really is. I’m angry that so much of it comes off as degrading and at the very least, objectifying of women. I’m angry that women are boxed into little cagetories of their worth based on their age or breast size. I’m angry that a lot of men like porn. I’m angry that largely young, beautiful, white women are still held to the epitome of beauty while people try to pretend that great strides in equality have been made when it’s really been *little strides*. I’m angry at the casualness with which verbal and physical abuse toward women especially has become so sexualized that people are no longer surprised to hear about a woman being hit, gagged or spat on. I am angry when we start saying things like, “So what if wome nare called names. Some women like that.”

        There are things you can do and say about women based on being women that you can’t do and say about people based on their religion or ethnicity. If you took sex out of the equation, the things that happen to women in porn, are simply abusive. You could *never* treat someone based on their ethnicity or religious beliefs the way women can be treated in porn. Oh and yes, I am aware that degrading porn of men exists. And that’s just as much a problem .But you know what? That kind of porn, in the mainstream, most watched kind of way doesn’t exist as much as the degrading kind to women. I’m angry that a lot of men seem unable to admit that. I’m angry that every Halloween, our pop culture world pushes sexy costumes on young girls and young women alike. Where costumes have turned into men’s porno fantasies. All women are in this culture are sex objects. And men might love and respect their gfs, wives and daughters but as a whole, women are not loved and respected. If feels like we are just a couple of warm holes and big breasts and butts to men now-a-days. And that most men are more eager to defend using women as masturbation aids then they are seeing how hard it is living like this 24/7.

        I’m angry that real women with real bodies aren’t celebrated. I’m angry that what is celebrated is the fantasy men want women to be. Not who women may really be. Whether they are really kinky or not! That doesn’t really matter.

        By the way, I never said that women and other generations never had it difficult. I never said anything close to that. But I, neither you, live in that time period. We live in this time period. We deal with social issues as they are today. And I really feel like you brought all that up to undermine that. And what you ignored is that never before in the history of the world are we dealing with techology in the ways we are dealing with it now. We do have it harder. All of us. Because more information is shared on more mediums and that makes things vastly more complex. The internet, Facebook, Twitter, texting have made things vastly more complicated. So yes, women do have it harder now in that regard. And that doesn’t undermine the difficulties other generations had to go through. But I don’t live in those generations. I’m here to talk about the context of what is going on in *this* generation. Surely you can understand that.

        • I guess I just feel like most guys are looking for justifications in favor of porn more then they really want to have a real honest dialogue about it or hear about the things women struggle with or be honest about how they use porn.
          Read more at http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-women-in-porn/comment-page-1/#IX8tDvk3bZ1Gf2Ah.99

          “So instead of having a real discussion about it all, it gets glossed over with generalities. Generalities that porn is good, that it’s healthy because sex is healthy, general comments are made about how much variety there is in porn, general comments about how “some” men do this and “some” men do that but rarely do men reflect complete honesty about what *they* are doing and how much of the time they are doing it.”
          You regularly make negative generalizations about porn, why is that better? Most of the comments from the men are saying porn is porn, it can be negative, it can be positive and to basically celebrate the good whilst getting rid of the bad. And how is this a real discussion when you’re telling us men what we think??? You say it gets glossed over with generalizations and then you go n make heavy amounts of them yourself, so wtf?

          “And then a lot of men express anger when women come to their own conclusions based on the general statements some men make.”
          Ugh, you really can’t be serious. They get angry because those women are making negative generalization about porn. You have literally said a negative statement about ALL porn before. You seriously can’t be surprised you’re getting people calling you out on this can you?

          “You’re ready to think the worse of me instead of seeing the humanity in me. You see me just as some angry woman who wants to shame you and other men and who is a mean lady who wants to take away men’s fun. That’s not who I am but that’s how you see me.”
          Yes yes, play the victim, Poooorrr Erin being targeted unfairly, seen as just some angry woman because she makes gross negative generalizations about porn, misunderstands men regularly and then creates strawmen arguments against a position that doesn’t exist in the man’s comment, tells men what they think because she knows better than the 5+ men responding here about their porn usage and that isn’t shaming men? Are you blind? Seriously? How many times do I need to point this stuff out to you? The negative response your getting is because of the womansplaining and negative generalizations. Learn to say I THINK men think this or this, instead of stating it directly. Learn to reduce your generalizations and you’ll probably get far less negative responses. You’re on a site for men, asking n hearing what men think n do in regards to men whilst dismissing it n telling us what men think. Do you think we’ll be happy about it?

          “But women that aren’t comfortable with these things? We get told we are “angry”. And that’s all we are.”
          The angry label is usually given to those who negatively generalize about porn n male sexuality, those who demonize male sexuality for which you have done in my honest opinion.

          “But porn is fueled on what men want to see. Not what women want to see. Not what doesn’t sell. It’s fueled on what sells and what gets hits.”
          There you go again, there is a growing market for female porn but hey, bury your head in the sand n ignore it’s existance because porn is fueled by men, not women right?

          I understand you feel a lot of pain from porn, i truly do. I feel bad for you and hope porn get’s better. But I FEEL ANGRY because you are part of the group of women that demonize male sexuality, you tell us men what we think, all the while you don’t understand us at all. You try to tell us we don’t see woman as full humans even when jerking off to them, you honestly truly think you understand men better than men do. Yet hear you are playing hte victim here and not even taking responsibility for your words, what you have said has made ME FEEL ASHAMED OF BEING A MALE. It’s made me feel shame for having a sex drive, looking at porn, it’s made me feel like it’s a MASSIVE RISK to open up to women about my porn usage because if they are like you they will misunderstand me and demonize me with it. I feel you see harm far more than it exists, and see men as far worse than they are.

          I hate that you have pain and wish it could be taken away but I don’t think you’re going the right way about it. You do bring up many concerns which I have taken into account but it’s really like you see NO good in porn and your words demonize it so much, demonize male sexuality so much that we’re never going to have a common ground to talk from. You seriously need to listen to the men replying here more.

    • Just because you personally wouldn’t pay for a boyfriends lap dance doesn’t mean that no woman would. It also doesn’t mean that that it is unhealthy.

      This act can come from a place of empowerment for all parties. It can also come from a place of exploitation.

  12. Dorine Moore says:

    Good point, Erin. Setting parameters for what we feel comfortable with should be respected whether we are in the industry or not. Archy, the wording of the article (women shaking their heads at other women) didn’t convey to me a sense that the head shaker felt hated or disrespected, but rather a bit superior in their sexual confidence.

    • It could be either, the possibilities are endless and it’s a subjective view of her thoughts, even her own thoughts on the manner are subjective and she may have seen something different in the women’s reactions than what the women were trying to convey. Sometimes nervousness can look like anger for example.

  13. Dorine Moores says:

    PS Those “prudes” may be women who are exploring their boundaries for the first time, with respect to strip clubs. They may have gone in thinking it sounded fun and exciting, or they may have simply been curious, but found that unexpected emotions surfaced. Just as some sex workers may have fun and some may cry backstage, so might some female customers enjoy pressing money into the dancers’ hands and some may grip their glasses. These responses are not always anticipated, probably not planned, and not necessarily hateful.

  14. Hank Vandeburgh says:

    I actually believe that the standard fetishes we see in porn and stripping are likely to be a major problem. We may say we love the new sexual variety, but I, for one, am quite aware that porn fetishes often (very often) cluster around fake large boobs, anal (very common now,) facial ejaculations, gang bangs, too rapid pounding for most women. Stripping tends (like some porn) to feature fetish costumes, fake boobs (again,) and movements that are exaggerated (and not at all really sexual.) The REAL variety would be if none of that existed and we all had to deal with each other as very different sexual individuals (which we actually are.) This is (to me) extreme commodification, and scary. And it ratchets up. Cuckolds. Bukkake. Where does it stop? I still like naturalistic porn, but…

    • If it’s so common, it’s not a fetish. Infact NOT looking at porn is the rarity. How would it be diversity if body modification didn’t exist? If bukkake etc didn’t exist? For those that like them they are fine and add to diversity. If you wanna say it’d be better if they weren’t so common it’d be good then that would be diversity but to outright get rid of them would shrink the pool.

      There’s more to porn than gang-bangs n bukkake, do some more searching. Relying on 1-3 sites is like relying on one channel on tv to bring you a fair n balanced view of the world. The key is to find a site with millions of videos, multiple sites even, and look beyond the recently added category. Hell that’s where categories become good because you can AVOID a lot of that shit you describe. Why do you think I’m such a fan of categories? It allows me to avoid 90%+ of the fake pro porn.

      • Hank Vandeburgh says:

        Archy, those things are no less fetishes for being more common. The fact that they’re seen regularly to me means that society damages people in rather regular ways. Wilhelm Reich used (in the 1920s) to explain spousal abuse the same way. Foreman abuses worker. Worker goes home and beats or abuses wife and kids. In a world where male autonomy is lessened, we see facial ejaculation (who does that in real life?) Or anal (most women don’t like it – why do it?) I have done a lot of searching. Even the extremely large mainstream sites feature more and more of this stuff.

        • Who ejaculates into women’s mouths? Isn’t that a fetish? I’ve done it and it was fine for her. A fetish is rare, it’s NOT mainstream. If the majority of porn has these elements then it isn’t a fetish. Plenty of people enjoy facials, I asked women in another thread if they were ok with it and the ones that replied said it was fine. Anal though is probably more rare, though it depends how rare you define a fetish being. What use to be a fetish, are now probably not a fetish.

          Anal sex, facials, etc are not inherently bad. They CAN be bad but that has more to do with why it’s done, some will do it to degrade whilst others do it because it’s fun. If my partner wanted to I’d give her a facial, why? Because it’d be interesting to try. I prefer to ejaculate into her mouth or a tissue though as it’s much easier to clean up. Is it bad to give a woman a facial?

          Some women enjoy anal sex, I can’t say I’m a fan of it and I do hate how prevalent it is in pro porn as I skip it but I can’t judge those who engage in it. Is it bad to have anal sex?

          Vibrators could be considered a fetish too couldn’t they? Though they’re now quite common in porn and in real life.

          The acts themselves aren’t the problem, it’s how they are performed. A video where someone is being slapped around n rough anal sex is most likely degrading but something more sensual is not. Even PIV sex can be degrading…

  15. I’d be the wife sitting at the bar, wearing an angry thousand-mile stare and teeth clenched. Is it because I was insecure? Probably a little. I don’t have sex for the sake of sex, not in it for a mind-blowing orgasm, so taking my husband there so I can “benefit” afterwards doesn’t work for me. He’d want to go home and have lots of sex that was inspired by the mainstream sexuality being utilized by the dancer to begin with… and that kind of sex doesn’t do anything for me. I’m an androphile, so gyrating women aren’t even visually interesting to me in any aesthetic way either, even though it’s generally expected that straight women are supposed to find female strippers exciting along with their husbands. The whole situation is pretty much the exact opposite of anything that does anything for me.

    I’d be sitting there, though, grumpy and frustrated because I’d be sitting there the whole time being bitter that my sexuality doesn’t allow me to find real, live outlets and entertainment. So while he can get his pretty much at every turn in this world, I can’t. And being happy for him for simply being normal only does so much.

    • “I’d be sitting there, though, grumpy and frustrated because I’d be sitting there the whole time being bitter that my sexuality doesn’t allow me to find real, live outlets and entertainment. So while he can get his pretty much at every turn in this world, I can’t. And being happy for him for simply being normal only does so much.”

      Are you serious? Don’t you have manpower, chippendales, male strip clubs, male porn, etc available? Where do you live that hasn’t got any of these things? Because I can guarantee women can find plenty of adult entertainment here. Why doesn’t your sexuality allow it, is the local stripclub only female?

      • Who out there thinks there are many more strip clubs for men then there are for women? *raises hand*

        How many people think men are more likely to be very turned on by naked gyrating young strippers then women are to be turned on by naked young gyrating male strippers? *raises hand*

        How many men would be okay with their wife or gf stripping for other men without them touching her?

        How many men are okay at looking at other women naked stripping for htem without touching them?

        Think hard about this.

  16. This is sort of tangential, but this being blog comments and not a discussion board, I can’t really start a separate thread.

    @Erin, I think you and I (and others who have followed similar discussions) are pretty clear about our respective stances on porn. Hypothetically, let’s say we take porn out of the equation, for at least one man who through choice or circumstances, simply does not partake of porn – no pictures, videos, magazines, phone sex, strip clubs, or anything else that qualifies as porn to you. But, this hypothetical man still masturbates the old fashioned way, and fantasizes about women. Those fantasies reflect whatever sexual tastes he has as far as how his fantasy women look, what acts they engage in, how specific parts would feel as he imagines touching them, and so on. They combine thing he has actually experienced, things he would like to experience, and things he would never do but are fun to fantasize about.

    So, is masturbation with fantasies acceptable? Can it be objectifying and degrading? How about masturbation without fantasies, like if a man could avoid fantasizing altogether but focuses just on the pure physical pleasure of self-touch? Does porn make masturbation bad, or does it make a bad thing worse?

    • Do you really care about my opinion Marcus? Earlier you told me that my thoughts came from a “other source”. Are you sincerely asking me because you respect what I have to say?

      Its funny to me how many of my comments on this topic you ignored but now you want me to answer your question.

  17. Just Sayin' says:

    I think I speak for those of us who use porn because partner sex is unavailable to us and for some, this has been the case for years, even decades. We couldn’t care less about the women in porn other than their ability to bring us to climax. After all these women have easy, constant sex with a wide variety of very good looking people. We on the other hand, those who are sexually lonely, have nothing but our hand, a computer screen and the knowledge after years of sexual rejection no woman will agree to have any kind of skin to skin contact with us. So really….why should we even think twice about these people?

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