Suburban wife, mother, and sex worker Elle Lynn Stanger talks about the women and men who make and use porn.
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We’ve needed to rethink our perception of pornography for decades.
I think I’m fairly typical. I grew up with two parents, went to college, graduated, got married and recently had my first child. I live in a relatively suburban section of Portland, Oregon. In many aspects, I am a typical candidate for consumption of so called mommy porn. Who am I?
I’m also a sex worker.
It started with the porn shop. After a couple years dabbling in health care, I grew tired of often ending my shifts in tears. On a whim, I dropped an application at a local adult store, and was hired. The four years I spent behind the counter of the porn shop taught me much more than any psychology, sociology, or human sexuality class ever could; that the retail end of the sex industry is a clear reflection of people as a whole. Many of us are having sex. Having sex with our boyfriends, girlfriends, husbands, wives, partners, and having sex with our selves. From giggling college kids to spectacle-wearing grannies, all kinds of people are getting in on sex.
Cheerful couples walking hand in hand, solo men looking for a quick masturbation in the video booth on the way home from work. Street walking prostitutes of both genders, looking to earn a few dollars. I’ll never forget the newly married young military couple, arriving at our doorstep to select the lingerie and lube that they would bring on their honeymoon. They walked the store hand in hand, her white dress trailing behind her, their eyes full of hope for their future together. Alternately, later that week, I had to summon the janitor, because someone had anonymously defecated on the floor of arcade number three, presumably post-masturbation. Yep, as a porn clerk, I saw a lot.
When I started the porn clerking, I was fortunate to have an insider’s peek into the adult industry. Two of my close female friends had become porn stars after high school. In the industry, these two girls made it big, their smiling, lipsticked faces appearing on glossy, triple X-rated DVDS, branding sex toys with major toy companies like Doc Johnson and Cal Exotics. One was often featured in music videos, the other appeared in the television show Entourage as herself.
These two girls had grown up in the same town, had the same circle of friends, yet had starkly contrasting experiences as pornographers.
Porn Star A maintained her sobriety, lived solo or with friends, had a few boyfriends, bought her mom a car and herself a modest house on the beach. She appeared in 100 titles in her first two years, on many of them she received top billing and the cover, a small feat in the porn industry. She is happy and healthy, and we speak on occasion.
Girl B admitted to a heavy cocaine habit, married twice, had two children, one of whom she never sees. She was a survivor of domestic abuse, and does not speak to her family. The last time I saw her image, she looked a decade older than her actual age of 25. I haven’t spoken with her in years. What is the simple moral of their stories? There is no absolute, these women surrounded themselves with good or bad people, and chose their own paths. Pornography was their livelihood, yet only incidental to their own happiness.
While I admired their fame and multi-digit earnings, I didn’t try my hand at porn. Rather, I took the soft core approach and was hired by a semi-nude website. At the age of 19 I was modeling nude for a world-famous website. I appreciated the random gifts I would receive from faraway admirers, and the incoherent, fantasy-laden emails that would clutter my inbox didn’t really bother me much more than any other junk mail.
In television and movies, we are shown stereotypes of men who lurk in strip clubs; gangsters, thugs, and creepy old men. My experience was different.
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Reactions from strangers, friends and family ran the gamut from disgust to pure admiration. Some of the other models and I became friends; the woman who photographed my wedding I had met at an airport on the way to a tattoo convention. We attended each other’s weddings.
At the age of 23 I decided to try my hand at stripping, and found that pole dancing was both lucrative and challenging, physically and psychologically. I showed up on time, drank little, never did drugs, and minded my own business. In short, I behaved as if I was working a job, because it is. I won a couple local pole competitions, and performed in burlesque shows for fun. I watched some of my peers thrive and enjoy the industry, competing in pole competitions and modeling gigs, while others would quietly cry in the backstage area, feeling trapped by their chosen profession.
In television and movies, we are shown stereotypes of men who lurk in strip clubs; gangsters, thugs, and creepy old men. My experience was different.
I met my husband and the father of my daughter at work, and he is the face of corporate America. Rarely a day passes when I don’t see a stranger on the street or on television, wearing some of his creations. Similar to my porn shop days, I meet and interact with many types of individuals and couples. I’m always delighted when a wife purchases a private dance for her husband, or if I have the pleasure of dancing for a couple.
Only last week, an unfamiliar woman waved me down as I approached the stage, and pressed a $20 in my hand. “I want you to take my husband, and give him the hottest dance he’s ever had.” I did so, and afterwards, she thanked me and explained. “I know that he’s going to come home to me, and fuck me like crazy.” It’s wonderful to be such a marital aid!
Of course, not everyone is so secure. My peers and I always shake our heads at the ladies who sit beside their partner, their fingers tightly clasping their drink, teeth set and eyeballs burning holes into our chests. These women have typically visited the strip club at the behest of their man-friend, if only to appear cool, sexy, and if nothing else, to keep tabs on him.
There’s a lot of complaining about the ‘reality’ of porn, with opponents arguing pornography presents an unrealistic representation of sex. Well, duh. True, most women don’t wear six inch Lucite stilettos while doing the dirty, and I’ll wager that most males don’t wax their entire bodies either, but much of this is par for the porno course.
Someone might want to point out that there’s not much truth to any kind of visual media or advertising. The women in H&M ads don’t wake up looking so airbrushed, and as for Victoria’s Secret, most American women won’t look like their runway Angels if they purchase a bra, no matter how miraculous it is. And while the traditional pornography has typically been of a cartoonish and outlandish aesthetic, my feminist and alternative pornographer friends know better, and are beginning to change it. Porn production companies like Abby Winters and Eon Mckai will show you the girls next door, not just the ladies from Silicon Valley. Director and performer Joanna Angel has produced her own brand of tattooed porn stars, and powerhouse porn star Belladonna has featured and fucked every flavor there is; transgender to typical.
There are women who are diehard feminists; I call them my friends. Some of them are webcam ladies. Most of them are strippers, and a few are pornographers. I listened with delight as my dear friend and adult star Sadie West detailed her love of filming, especially her enthusiasm for blow job scenes. I can recall clearly the hot, sticky afternoon I spent in the NE Portland feminist bookstore, where queer pornographer Sophia St James explained her drive to create scenes for real people, of all genders and kinks.
As humans, we are curious. It is our nature to explore and create. How else would we have built the pyramids, crossed seas, or discovered fire? Humans are as resourceful as we are inquisitive, and we like to learn about everything. Reality television has shown us that humans are natural voyeurs: we like to witness how other people live. Pornographers know this, and they show us how other people fuck.
In truth, I have not yet read Fifty Shades of Grey. I might get to it, I may not.
In adult entertainment, in the sex industry, there is no black and white. As in life, things are rarely so simplistic. Rather, we find a grey area, and the outcome depends on the individual. I haven’t quit using porn, although “using” wouldn’t be the correct nomenclature. I utilize porn. For when I would like to relax, for when I would like inspiration, or for when I am feeling curious.
Porn, nudity, sex, masturbation, lap dances. If we as human beings are shaped by our experiences, than I cannot create a reality for any other woman or man. Is porn bad or good? I can’t tell, really. It’s a grey area, with many shades in between.
Fifty Shades of Grey, indeed.
The Men and Pornography series is the product of the joint call from elephant journal Love and Relationships and The Good Life on The Good Men Project. This previously appeared in elephant journal Love and Relationships.
Read more on Men and Pornography on The Good Life.
Image credit: litonali/Flickr
I think I speak for those of us who use porn because partner sex is unavailable to us and for some, this has been the case for years, even decades. We couldn’t care less about the women in porn other than their ability to bring us to climax. After all these women have easy, constant sex with a wide variety of very good looking people. We on the other hand, those who are sexually lonely, have nothing but our hand, a computer screen and the knowledge after years of sexual rejection no woman will agree to have any kind of… Read more »
This is sort of tangential, but this being blog comments and not a discussion board, I can’t really start a separate thread. @Erin, I think you and I (and others who have followed similar discussions) are pretty clear about our respective stances on porn. Hypothetically, let’s say we take porn out of the equation, for at least one man who through choice or circumstances, simply does not partake of porn – no pictures, videos, magazines, phone sex, strip clubs, or anything else that qualifies as porn to you. But, this hypothetical man still masturbates the old fashioned way, and fantasizes… Read more »
Do you really care about my opinion Marcus? Earlier you told me that my thoughts came from a “other source”. Are you sincerely asking me because you respect what I have to say?
Its funny to me how many of my comments on this topic you ignored but now you want me to answer your question.
I’d be the wife sitting at the bar, wearing an angry thousand-mile stare and teeth clenched. Is it because I was insecure? Probably a little. I don’t have sex for the sake of sex, not in it for a mind-blowing orgasm, so taking my husband there so I can “benefit” afterwards doesn’t work for me. He’d want to go home and have lots of sex that was inspired by the mainstream sexuality being utilized by the dancer to begin with… and that kind of sex doesn’t do anything for me. I’m an androphile, so gyrating women aren’t even visually interesting… Read more »
“I’d be sitting there, though, grumpy and frustrated because I’d be sitting there the whole time being bitter that my sexuality doesn’t allow me to find real, live outlets and entertainment. So while he can get his pretty much at every turn in this world, I can’t. And being happy for him for simply being normal only does so much.” Are you serious? Don’t you have manpower, chippendales, male strip clubs, male porn, etc available? Where do you live that hasn’t got any of these things? Because I can guarantee women can find plenty of adult entertainment here. Why doesn’t… Read more »
Who out there thinks there are many more strip clubs for men then there are for women? *raises hand*
How many people think men are more likely to be very turned on by naked gyrating young strippers then women are to be turned on by naked young gyrating male strippers? *raises hand*
How many men would be okay with their wife or gf stripping for other men without them touching her?
How many men are okay at looking at other women naked stripping for htem without touching them?
Think hard about this.
I actually believe that the standard fetishes we see in porn and stripping are likely to be a major problem. We may say we love the new sexual variety, but I, for one, am quite aware that porn fetishes often (very often) cluster around fake large boobs, anal (very common now,) facial ejaculations, gang bangs, too rapid pounding for most women. Stripping tends (like some porn) to feature fetish costumes, fake boobs (again,) and movements that are exaggerated (and not at all really sexual.) The REAL variety would be if none of that existed and we all had to deal… Read more »
If it’s so common, it’s not a fetish. Infact NOT looking at porn is the rarity. How would it be diversity if body modification didn’t exist? If bukkake etc didn’t exist? For those that like them they are fine and add to diversity. If you wanna say it’d be better if they weren’t so common it’d be good then that would be diversity but to outright get rid of them would shrink the pool. There’s more to porn than gang-bangs n bukkake, do some more searching. Relying on 1-3 sites is like relying on one channel on tv to bring… Read more »
Archy, those things are no less fetishes for being more common. The fact that they’re seen regularly to me means that society damages people in rather regular ways. Wilhelm Reich used (in the 1920s) to explain spousal abuse the same way. Foreman abuses worker. Worker goes home and beats or abuses wife and kids. In a world where male autonomy is lessened, we see facial ejaculation (who does that in real life?) Or anal (most women don’t like it – why do it?) I have done a lot of searching. Even the extremely large mainstream sites feature more and more… Read more »
Who ejaculates into women’s mouths? Isn’t that a fetish? I’ve done it and it was fine for her. A fetish is rare, it’s NOT mainstream. If the majority of porn has these elements then it isn’t a fetish. Plenty of people enjoy facials, I asked women in another thread if they were ok with it and the ones that replied said it was fine. Anal though is probably more rare, though it depends how rare you define a fetish being. What use to be a fetish, are now probably not a fetish. Anal sex, facials, etc are not inherently bad.… Read more »
PS Those “prudes” may be women who are exploring their boundaries for the first time, with respect to strip clubs. They may have gone in thinking it sounded fun and exciting, or they may have simply been curious, but found that unexpected emotions surfaced. Just as some sex workers may have fun and some may cry backstage, so might some female customers enjoy pressing money into the dancers’ hands and some may grip their glasses. These responses are not always anticipated, probably not planned, and not necessarily hateful.
Good point, Erin. Setting parameters for what we feel comfortable with should be respected whether we are in the industry or not. Archy, the wording of the article (women shaking their heads at other women) didn’t convey to me a sense that the head shaker felt hated or disrespected, but rather a bit superior in their sexual confidence.
It could be either, the possibilities are endless and it’s a subjective view of her thoughts, even her own thoughts on the manner are subjective and she may have seen something different in the women’s reactions than what the women were trying to convey. Sometimes nervousness can look like anger for example.
Elle, while I don’t agree with your stance 100%, I was with you in your article until I got to the comparisons you made regarding the woman that placed a $20 in your hand and asked you to give her husband the hottest dance he ever had vs. the other women that sat as you described: “ …fingers tightly clasping their drink, teeth set and eyeballs burning holes into our chests.” For one thing, you are clearly shaming the second type of women. Do all women need to be comfortable with strip clubs and the likes of that to be… Read more »
I think her dislike of the finger-clutchers was that they went along and had hatred for her, in her own workplace. Do you realize how insulting it is to have the gf’s/or bf’s if it happens, come into her workplace n look at her with contempt n hatred? They made the choice to attend the stripclub, the least they can do is show her some respect. Why attend if you hate the stripper? Because your bf wants you to? That’s not her fault yet these women are making it about her when really the hatred should be to the bf… Read more »
So now you know these women’s feelings so much that you know the carry “hatred” for her? They can’t simply be sad, uncomfortable or upset that their boyfriend actually wanted to do this without it being automatically disrespectful to the stripper? Also, when does the respect for the actual partner come into play? You don’t actually know what these women are feeling. I bet it’s a combination of feelings and confusion which lead them to make the choice to agree to go to the strip club in the first place even though they aren’t fully comfortable with it. Women aren’t… Read more »
“If men were so happy and loving and enthralled in the beauty of their own partners, they wouldn’t be seeking out visuals of other women like the majority of men seem to do today. I really don’t think most men would really even know what to do with themselves without pornographic visuals.” What makes you think this? It could be that men are more likely to be polygamous so his partners beauty is a moot point if he still has desires for others. I feel you’re trying to find simple answers in an extremely complex system, it’s impossible to say… Read more »
Archy: “It could be that men are more likely to be polygamous so his partners beauty is a moot point if he still has desires for others. I feel you’re trying to find simple answers in an extremely complex system, it’s impossible to say men want this men want that because we differ so much. Speaking as a man who has loved I can tell you that yes it takes a supermodel to come even close to her beauty and never ever will it surpass her beauty. I’m sure there are many men like me, and I’m sure there are… Read more »
“You seem to think that solves the problem and answers all the questions. Not too sure why you think I want the simple answer when you repeatedly showcase a “everyone is different” mentality which leads me to believe that you don’t really want to talk about anything much more complicated then that.” No I say that because of your (and others) extremely high level of negative generalizations of what men are, you speak of them regularly as a single group with similar ideas when it’s more a collection of individuals and impossible to say what a man wants, or what… Read more »
Erin, I don’t think anyone, from strippers all the way to Archy, would shame you for having and abiding by your own sexual boundaries. If that includes avoiding strip clubs and porn, and even making it a condition of entering a relationship that your man avoids them, too, then cool for you if that’s what works and keeps you feeling happy and secure and sexy and all those other good things. There’s no shame in that. What’s abundantly clear from your many comments on porn and sex work more generally is that you have no tolerance for anyone else thinking… Read more »
@Marcus Williams “What’s abundantly clear from your many comments on porn and sex work more generally is that you have no tolerance for anyone else thinking any aspect of it is ever okay. ” I don’t think that is true at all. I find your comments to be more in the way of this blinkered thinking. You seem to think that because you don’t see objectification, then it doesn’t exist. This is also evident in the way you use a semantic argument to discredit another poster. You comparing the categorisation of food, to the categorisation of women in porn is… Read more »
You seem to think that because you don’t see objectification, then it doesn’t exist. Then allow me to clarify. If Erin makes statements that make objectification a universal and harmful consequence of men consuming porn, that argument includes me, as a consumer of porn. If I and several other men provide counterexamples to the mindset and regard for women that she argues is inevitable, then the universality of her argument is defeated. That does not mean that other men aren’t capable of the kinds of bad consequences of porn that Erin decries. My argument isn’t, “I don’t, therefore no one… Read more »
Great comment. “Then allow me to clarify. If Erin makes statements that make objectification a universal and harmful consequence of men consuming porn, that argument includes me, as a consumer of porn. If I and several other men provide counterexamples to the mindset and regard for women that she argues is inevitable, then the universality of her argument is defeated.” Yes x 1billion suns. The broadbrush universal statements are wrong as they’re instantly disproven on these boards by the men commenting. It truly makes me wonder if she understands men at all, I’ve been extremely open in my own mind… Read more »
Marcus, and If I provide counterexamples to your counterexamples does that mean your argument is similarly defeated? I feel like you and other men feel like you get to tell women what should and shouldn’t make them feel degraded. That because you don’t think it’s degrading to categorize women, it simply isn’t. That because you love and respect the women in your life, how you deal with porn is perfect. Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t. I know there are things I can do that make my partner feel disrespected. If he did them to me, they wouldn’t cause… Read more »
Marcus, and If I provide counterexamples to your counterexamples does that mean your argument is similarly defeated? No, because it’s a matter of simple logic. Consider a hypothetical exchange as follows: Person A: All movies scare everyone. Person B: I am not scared by romantic comedies. Person A: You’re completely dismissing horror films like Saw, The Shining, and Ishtar. Person B: You didn’t say some movies are scary to some people, you said all movies scare all people. I gave an example of a not-scary movie. Person A: But all movies do scare everyone. There’s Halloween, The Exorcist, Jaws, Gigli…… Read more »
Amen Marcus, Amen. Being told what we think by a female takes the cake. Not even other men have the right to tell me what I think.
Marcus: No, because it’s a matter of simple logic. Consider a hypothetical exchange as follows: Person A: All movies scare everyone.” Your statement is already invalid. I never said “all” porn movies *insert anything* here. I said a large pool of porn is degrading and I think largely a majority of what I say about porn applies. But I never said it was “all”. I do think a majority of what men are looking at is largely objectifying of women. I think there are movies and material that exists that isn’t objectifying but I don’t think it largely exists for… Read more »
“You comparing the categorisation of food, to the categorisation of women in porn is in poor taste. A woman is a human being, and shouldn’t be reduced to a single body part or aesthetic quality. They shouldn’t be grouped according to these characteristics.” The thing is HE is not doing that, SHE is. He does not see them as single body parts or qualities when looking at a category. There’s a massive difference between clicking “large breasts” and seeing women with large breasts vs only wanting to see the breasts alone. This is an extremely easy concept to understand, people… Read more »
Agreed 100%. There is a great sense of no tolerance, which comes across as demonizing porn and men so often.
“When you keep coming back to tell everyone how shameful it all is…well, that’s just not very neighborly.”
I think I tend to be exuberant about this discussion because I don’t really ever feel like most men are ever really listening. I feel like most men like porn and that’s really all that matters to most men. Not real women. That’s how I feel whether it’s right or wrong or whether you think that’s worthwhile or not. I am angry. I’m sad too. Discouraged. Disappointed. Frustrated. I feel a lot of different things. Just as I’m sure you do Marcus. I don’t really appreciate you telling me what I have to say gets old though. That comes of… Read more »
I guess I just feel like most guys are looking for justifications in favor of porn more then they really want to have a real honest dialogue about it or hear about the things women struggle with or be honest about how they use porn. Read more at https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-women-in-porn/comment-page-1/#IX8tDvk3bZ1Gf2Ah.99 “So instead of having a real discussion about it all, it gets glossed over with generalities. Generalities that porn is good, that it’s healthy because sex is healthy, general comments are made about how much variety there is in porn, general comments about how “some” men do this and “some” men… Read more »
Just because you personally wouldn’t pay for a boyfriends lap dance doesn’t mean that no woman would. It also doesn’t mean that that it is unhealthy.
This act can come from a place of empowerment for all parties. It can also come from a place of exploitation.
“In adult entertainment, in the sex industry, there is no black and white…the outcome depends on the individual.” Absent from this glowing anecdote of sex-positive exploration are any discussions of the impact of race, class, or gender on workers in the adult entertainment industry. Different career outcomes for sex workers depend heavily upon their background. There is a huge difference between being Sasha Grey and being a queer black Latina prostitute working in the underground economy. Moreover, this article seems to ignore the very real persistence of sexism, racism, and heterosexism within the porn industry. Who profits from sex work?… Read more »
Excellent response Jdub.
“Rather than just offering a carte blanche, “it’s all good” appraisal of pornography, we really need to recognize that there is often real exploitation of all workers in the adult entertainment industry.” The porn industry already has a plethora of negative critiques of it, yet we get a few positive ones and people are quick to point the finger again n say BBADDDD BADDD. Point out the negatives if you will, but I hope you’re also celebrating the good along with it, otherwise you’re only demonizing a medium over some of it’s content. BTW, the majority of porn produced is… Read more »
Did you happen to notice how you’re absolutist claim of the effect on all workers was contradicted in your very next sentence that allowed for the possibility that some workers *do* find it fun, sexy, or even financially rewarding?
That’s a good notice there Marcus.
When talking about sex workers this seems to happen often. They are all being exploited but some of the are doing it for reasons they actively chose on their own. I guess it allows for people to switch back and forth depending on which answer they need.
“”There’s a lot of complaining about the ‘reality’ of porn, with opponents arguing pornography presents an unrealistic representation of sex. Well, duh.” The issue is many people – especially young people – do not have this lightbulb moment. They do not have a frame of reference with which to compare the porn “reality”. What you and I view as “par for the porno course”, they may view as an accurate portrayal of sex. I will not deny the incredible diversity of human sexuality. I will not deny that some women may like cum on their face and being called “slut”.… Read more »
The thing is that there is so much variety in porn, but also that there’s no set guide to porn either depending on what you watch. It can have anything from hair pulling to the most sensual and loving content, I haven’t seen hair pulling in agggeeeeessss, but I look mainly at solo or amateur content. There is harmful content but there is also a lot of non-harmful content, should we be directing kids to the better stuff? Kids being educated by porn is a clear sign that our society fails at giving adequate sexual education, yet too often people… Read more »
I have made this comment in response to other articles about porn. Although I have mixed feelings about porn for a number of reasons, I am not sure porn can be blamed for turning young men Into insensitive or inept lovers. When I first started having sex back in the 1980’s, I can’t say that my boyfriends were great lovers. I probably wasn’t a great lover either (although it was easier for me because at that age, guys were just thrilled to be having sex no matter what I did or didn’t do). Sex takes practice and communication. Our big… Read more »
“I will say, I believe the majority of men really, really want to please women sexually. They just may not know how.”
Hi-5, someone who gets it. Bad education is to blame, how are men supposed to know?
Although I have mixed feelings about porn for a number of reasons, I am not sure porn can be blamed for turning young men Into insensitive or inept lovers. Only to a certain extent. It’s a matter of porn being the ONLY source of material and influence in their lives plus the problem of when they are discovered to indulge in that one source they are scolded for it but not being offered any alternative. It’s like, “That’s unhealthy!!! Where else are you supposed to go for this? How am I supposed to know I am just telling you that… Read more »
Helsenberg, keep in mind that it is also educating young girls that this is what their sexuality should be. That they should like being called names and ejaculated on and the likes of that. In any other case, if not sexual, we would call this physical and verbal abuse. But today, for a lot of women and girls, physical and verbal abuse is suppose to be “sexy”. If young boys are seeing it today, so are young girls. And they are taking in messages about what their bodies should look like and what they should be doing to make boys… Read more »
And while there are many catagories in porn, I don’t think it’s positive when women are placed in those catagories for their big breats, small breasts, “grannies”, “teens”…and all the labels indiviual women in porn get fitted in do to one of their features. You think this is a positive, I don’t.
Out of curiosity why do you think such divisions are not positive? (For the record I can see how they CAN be bad but I don’t think it’s to the point of just flatly declaring them bad.)
if you read my response again you will see the answer is already in there. it categorizes women based on one feature that sends the message that that one feature is the surmount of her worth at that point and time, or rather, her lack of worth. So woman with large breasts gets to be fetishized for her big breasts. She doesn’t just get to be her in all her entirety, complexity and totaltality. She is the sum of her one body part. A woman can’t just be a full complete woman. She has to be a “big breasted woman”… Read more »
I had a feeling that was what you were saying I just didn’t want to put the words in your mouth.
What you say here, to me, is the can in how such divisions can be bad but not inherently bad.
I’m not sure I understand whaty ou mean by “….but not inherently bad.” Danny.
As in the difference between:
“I have a preference of (insert trait) in women so what is what I mostly notice.”
and
“If a woman doesn’t have (insert trait) she doesn’t exist.” or “The only value a woman has is (insert trait).”
Both thoughts happen to run through the heads of countless men (and women I might add) every day several times a day.
One is perfectly fine and pretty much free of problems while the other is pretty problematic. I would say that what you have been talking about is the damage the latter can cause. And I agree.
There is a difference between liking a certain feature a woman posses and noticing it in public vs specifically seeking it out and “shopping” for it through a catalog of material that is utlmately about your own pleasure first. A catalog that offers the “product” (women) up on a shelf based on what *you* like. Simply liking a woman with a certain feature isn’t bad if a man isn’t objectfying her for that part. But porn only knows how to objectify. That’s how it makes it’s money. That’s how it gets people to notice it. Since porn only represents the… Read more »
So basically your logic means you objectify ever tradesperson you ever meet because you’re shopping specifically for their skillset alone? I feel sad for people in your world if you only see their worth as one aspect of them, men are quite capable and often do see a woman as a real woman even in porn. And btw, humans are selective in who they approach and ask out, they “shop” as it’s a natural and normal behaviour. Do you know how many women have told me how much they hate when men DON’T shop for women? When they approach everyone… Read more »
I am talking about the unique topic of porn and sexuality. Which is infinitely more complicated for obvious reasons. I’m not interested in getting into a conversation about other career paths. I don’t think it’s a positive that women are labeled by their body parts or age in porn. As a woman, seeing that, it feels like crap. I understand that’s not how it makes you as a man feels. It feels good to you because you can pick and choose whatever desire you have in the moment. I understand this is a positive for you. I don’t consider it… Read more »
So basically it all comes down to you having a view that men masturbating to women in porn is objectifying them? What makes you think that single feature is all he wants? Wouldn’t it be possible that men are attracted to a feature a woman posses n are using categories in place of naturally bypassing women that don’t meet their attraction like what goes on in the face 2 face world? I used a category the other day, redheads, because I am very attracted to redheads. There was still quite a variety of women there and it’s only one feature… Read more »
When you see these categories, Erin, do you think those women are just those parts, or do you recognize that they are individuals, regardless of where they’re placed in the porn taxonomy? If you think so narrowly of them, that’s sad, but I don’t think you do. Why in the world do you think men only see them that way – that they’re less capable of respecting the person? It’s like a menu. If I feel like lasagna, I’m more likely to go for Olive Garden than El Torito. That doesn’t mean I only ever like lasagna, or that I… Read more »
“Whenever I see you describe the value or worth of a porn model/actress/performer, you consistently degrade and shame them far more than I ever do in my own mind. You describe a kind of objectification that is completely foreign to my way of thinking, and represent that as being how men think. Well, I respect women in porn. Do you?” Amen to that, her comment and comments like that are the absolute most degrading comments I’ve ever seen towards people in porn, far more than the guy calling a woman a whore. To see their worth as only categories is… Read more »
Archy: “Amen to that, her comment and comments like that are the absolute most degrading comments I’ve ever seen towards people in porn, far more than the guy calling a woman a whore. To see their worth as only categories is fucking disgusting and extremely foreign to my way of thinking. There is a huge difference between being attracted to and/or prefering X type of person and valuing them for 1 trait…” Show me where I ONE time made a derogatory comment about a porn star? Show me. Prove your own comments here. Because you know what? This claim that… Read more »
“Show me where I ONE time made a derogatory comment about a porn star? Show me. Prove your own comments here. Because you know what? This claim that I am disrespecting actresses in porn is bull crap.” You have both myself and Marcus wondering how you respect these women. Do you read your comments? You talk constantly about their worth only being their body parts when the 2 men who watch porn replying to you see their worth as more. You think categories objectify women based on their body and that men are objectifying the women, as if they’re incapable… Read more »
Marcus: “When you see these categories, Erin, do you think those women are just those parts, or do you recognize that they are individuals, regardless of where they’re placed in the porn taxonomy?” If I didn’t see these women as individuals why would I have made this comment here on Nov. 2: “Most women even in the industry will talk about having an “expiration date”. If there are still “expiration dates” in porn, then it doesn’t have the amount of variety that you think it does. There is also a huge dirth in how women of color are represented in… Read more »
“I see more men defend pornography then I see men defend everyday average not in porn women.” Since when do women defend everyday average men on any major scale? Men defend porn because there is no shortage of women who will TELL men what they think instead of asking, they will misunderstand men, they will say men are degrading women and a bunch of misandrist bullshit whilst simultaneously ignoring the men replying who are proving otherwise. I’ve had women tell me watching porn = watching rape, that the porn stars are being raped. Hell I must have raped myself when… Read more »
I am interested in hearing what men have to say Archy. but I am not going ti dismiss my own values because you simply like porn and you describe yourself as being respectful to women. I don’t think porn is positive for women or men. I dont’ think porn represents women well. I think it’s hateful to women. Me believing that degrades no one. I think porn is a huge weakness for men too and I don’t think men are always coming from a fair place when they are defending porn. So yes, I am interested in what men have… Read more »
With that in mind Erin I wonder what is the difference between me clicking the link to the old women category on a porn and preferring to check out the old women I see while I’m say, walking around the mall? Are you saying that my clicking of that link to the old woman category, “sends the message that that one feature is the surmount of her worth at that point and time, or rather, her lack of worth” but my preferring to look at the old women at the mall (instead of the younger women, or women my own… Read more »
Then by all means, lets keep categorizing women just as men want them categorized so that men can more easily find the type of women they most want to jerk one off too. That’s a good enough reason to you, I guess it should be a good enough reason to me. …except…..except you are still justifying objectifying women because of what *men* want to jerk off too. The threshold for what is considered objectification does seem to drop when it comes to porn. Especially is the case for men. Many men are okay with many things being done to women… Read more »
“Then by all means, lets keep categorizing women just as men want them categorized so that men can more easily find the type of women they most want to jerk one off too. That’s a good enough reason to you, I guess it should be a good enough reason to me. …except…..except you are still justifying objectifying women because of what *men* want to jerk off too.” It’s a good enough reason to me because I (and a good number of guys around here I bet) have certain preferences in the types of women they look at and jerk off… Read more »
Jerking off to women in porn IS NOT OBJECTIFICATION. Even doing it by category is NOT objectification. You have to see that woman as only being a sexual object to you to objectify her, you can watch porn even by category and still see her as a human being. It’s an extremely easy concept to understand. Women CAN be objectified in porn and there is a lot of bad porn out there I agree but not all of it is and it matters a lot of what the viewer thinks. Let’s say I look at redheads because I find that… Read more »
So basically you’re objectifying women where many men are not? YOU see their worth based on breasts, I see categories such as women WITH small breasts which makes it easier to find content I like, all the whilst I know 100% they’re a woman and still see them as women.
It’s pretty sad when people commenting negatively on porn often objectify the women to quite a high degree, probably more so than most of the porn viewers.
Then that’s what matters Archy..that *you* can find the content *you* want based on how women look. Problem solved. Women are categorized and labled and boxed into a catagory because *you* need that so you can find what you want to masturbate too. I feel so much better about all this!
It’s pretty sad that you keep trying to imply I am degrading women by speaking up about problems I see with the porn industry as a woman.
“It’s pretty sad that you keep trying to imply I am degrading women by speaking up about problems I see with the porn industry as a woman.” See, again you have no idea what I am saying. I’m not annoyed or saying you’re degrading women by speaking up over the problems. I’m saying you’re degrading them by objectifying them when you think of categories when myself and other men commenting here are not doing that. Having a preference, looking at women based on that preference is not objectification anymore than hiring a plumber is objectifying him/her because all you need… Read more »
Do you stand over the plumber and jerk-off? I’m confused as to what a plumber has to do in a discussion of men, women, relationships and sexuality.
Do you masturbate to movies about soldiers?
I’d like to stick on the topic that is specific to men, women, relationships and sexuality. I am not interested in talking about a-sexual situations as comparisons for sexual ones.
So only when someone masturbates is it considered objectifying? Why did I bring it up? Because categories exist everywhere, we’re humans, we’re selective, it doesn’t mean we don’t respect people if we look only at those we find attractive n purposely seek them out. It doesn’t mean their worth is solely their looks either, why would it? In all examples you’re using their services in one form of another, but why is sexuality somehow different where it’s indicative of their worth? Masturbating to women by categories does not exclude every other feeling you’d have for women including caring about who… Read more »
Categories do not exist everywhere as they do in porn. Categories in porn largely categorize women, not men. Men and women are not cateorized equally in this product. My questions about what you masturbate to is to highlight the different ofcomparing sexual things to a-sexual things. Sexuality is the topic here. Not A-Sexual things. For lots of people that have one night stands, the person is only worth sex to them. Which is why they only want a one night stand with them. I understand that many guys here are okay with women being categorized and labeled do to your… Read more »
The disparity in viewership is largely to blame for the disparity in categorization howevre that is slowly changing. It still doesn’t make it objectifying though unless the viewer ONLY see’s their worth as that body part, instead of people like myself who simply see them as women who are attractive and not an object. Categorization happens everywhere from picking what service you want, to picking body type, age, personality, theme, etc. It’s in all kinds of media, only difference is porn has more of the body-type categorization. As a man I don’t care that people categorize men in porn as… Read more »
I’m just going to give you what you want: Everything you say is 100% right!
Good job!
If you say so
When i talk about porn, I don’t mean the industry, I mean every single piece of pornography made. Sexting, amateur porn, pro porn, the porn I make on webcam with a friend, etc. When I talk about the variety of porn I refer to that wide range of porn, the actual industry’s like the one in the U.S (as in Hustler, internet pro porn, etc) don’t have as much variety. I often watch amateur porn of couples in their 40’s, sometimes 50’s though being late 20’s myself that’s reaching the limit of my attraction. I am thankful for the wide… Read more »
@Erin “Helsenberg, keep in mind that it is also educating young girls that this is what their sexuality should be.” Absolutely. 100%. I didn’t mean to assert that only young men are negatively impacted by the porn they watch, although men do consume porn of all mediums at higher rates than women in all age categories. Still, the porn images filter into the mainstream, so that “porno chic” becomes the latest fashion trend for women. @Archy “yet so many will blame porn for not teaching “real sex” when there is SO MUCH variety in porn that it’s silly to generalize… Read more »
Speaking as I was once a teenager looking up porn exactly how you describe I would start on one site and quickly went to others when I didn’t find content I liked. I dare say many teens will look around, and probably quickly utilize the category system. The problem with user-based porn sites is that one uploader can do a mass upload, and so you see a representation of his/her preferences and not the variety. If you think teens can’t do more searching and just look purely at the recent list than I dunno what to tell you, you’d be… Read more »
You have to be careful trying to work out “Men’s” porn consumption by watching red-tube. These are the problems. 1. Porn is cheap to make, so the porn that exists does not equal the porn that people are watching. Most viewers watch a tiny subset of the porn that exists. 2. Most porn on red-tube is “Pirated” from porn sites that have gone bust. 3. Sites like red tube try to predict the porn that you want, based on what you have just watched. If you just watched something hardcore, it will give you more of the same. The same… Read more »
Agreed, the porn I watch isn’t always reflective of what I want in a real woman anyway. Porn usage only indicates what they like IN PORN.
Okay Mike, if most men want tosee soft-core Playboy stuff then most men want to basically see young beautiful women with large breasts, usually white, possibly airbrushed. Because I don’t remember Playboy being very equal in the age or race of the women it often pursues for it’s magazine. And that’s a better message for women how? Although I don’t really agree with your conclusion, I think that men have much more hardcore tastes in porn then ever before but I do agree that men are largely interested in young women with big breasts and women receive that message daily… Read more »
I’d say videos are far more realistic, images are way too easy to photoshop to the pure skin as you say. Even in my portrait photography I avoid doing any major alterations but simply clean up basic stuff that will disappear in a week or 2, or that shouldn’t be there such as pimples, flushed cheeks from extreme heat (hot climate 🙁 ), etc. To do that in video though is extremely time consuming n expensive. Amateur porn is the better choice, there are plenty of sites where users upload their own pics n videos which shows a much more… Read more »
How dare someone have flushed cheeks or a pimple. Dirty, dirty humans with their imperfections and natural body reactions. Videos are more deceptive. If an actor and actress are “acting” out a scene, the reality is that neither of them could really be enjoying it, liking it or having fun but as long as they have big smiles on and pretend it’s great, the person watching that is tricked into believing the fantasy of it. And then that person might bring that new information to their own partner and want to “try new things”..because heck, the porn stars where doing… Read more »
Well I’ll only say that all I’ve been saying is amateur has a higher chance of being better, not that it always is better.
Thank-you for this well-written n thoughtful article on the variety of people in porn. It’s great to see pro-porn stances which realize the complexities in the field. Every job can have people exploited in, should we ban mining because some miners are exploited?
I’m a survivor of child sexual abuse (CSA), and this is my perspective. First I will define my survivor model for sex, then point out how a lot of sex-negative feminist campaigners have this survivor model, and I will finish with a better way of “protecting” survivors. Non-abused kids and teenagers go through a natural sexual development with “partners” their own age. This healthy development lets children and teenagers work out what kinds of sex and relationships they enjoy, and what they are comfortable with. If this process has gone well, then “a complete asshat” is someone who cheated on… Read more »
Great comment, very informative thank-you. I’ve noticed quite a lot of survivors as feminists. It explains why there can be such a hardcore anti-porn stance.
I loved this comment, too. And I’m aware that this paradigm is true for many sex workers. One difference in reference to “their own age.” I don’t think an older teen or young adult being initiated by or having a lover older than them is a bad thing. Absolutely not children or younger teens. Sex can be a little technical, and this is a way to pass down knowledge. I wouldn’t expect these relationships to be permanent. The age-appropriateness thing has come up here a few times, and I don’t automatically agree with it.
To the woman who gave the stripper $20 so that her husband would come home and fuck her like crazy — is it a good feeling to know that that’s because he’s turned on by a much hotter and more attractive woman? IDK, I’m not sure I’d enjoy that. It’s not a question if being insecure, it’s a question of wanting to feel like you are the one who is turning your partner on. Otherwise, what’s the point?
is it a good feeling to know that that’s because he’s turned on by a much hotter and more attractive woman?
1. It’s not so certain that the husband finds the stripper “much hotter and more attractive” than his wife.
2. It could be that the woman herself gets off on the idea of knowing that at the end of the night SHE is the one that he is going to come home to have sex with.
Oh come on, of course strippers are way way way more attractive than the average woman! If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it? That doesn’t mean he’s not committed to me, but I’m being realistic.
Hate to break it to you but not everyone thinks every stripper is more beautiful than the average woman. I’m sure some are quite beautiful but I have seen plenty of extremely beautiful non-strippers, many of which are mothers here and are quite average. Beauty differs for everyone, getting too caught up in what you THINK is more beautiful than you vs what your partner thinks will surely cause issue. “If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it?” No, the effect of love can seriously increase… Read more »
Oh come on, of course strippers are way way way more attractive than the average woman! If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it?
well because someone is ‘objectively’ more attractive, doesnt mean that every individual would find them ‘subjectively’ attractive. quite a few times ive heard men and women say they can see why a someone is seen as very attractive by the majority, but personally that person does nothing for them
If we look just at the stereotypical version of attractiveness in the US I would say that attractiveness depends on which establishment one goes to. You are likely more attractive than many strippers. You many not be oozing the same level of confidence as some stripper ooze because they stand in next to nothing (or nothing) for their job in front of people they don’t necessarily know. For the men I knew who went to strip clubs more often they didn’t go because they thought the women were hot in the stereotypical way. They went because they found the confidence… Read more »
Oh come on, of course strippers are way way way more attractive than the average woman! If I thought my boyfriend believed I was more attractive than a professional stripper, well, that would be completely delusional, wouldn’t it? That doesn’t mean he’s not committed to me, but I’m being realistic. What makes you so sure your boyfriend would find a stripper more attractive than yourself? What exactly is “delusional” about the idea that a guy would find a non stripper woman more attractive than a woman that strips? Or are you taking the title of stripper and just elevating it… Read more »
No one would pay to see me strip. alas, they would probably pay me not to strip. 🙂 I’m 45 years old, 20 lbs overweight and gravity has taken its toll on my boobs. So, yes, strippers are definitely more attractive than I am. I’m not trying to beat myself up, it’s just a fact.
I can agree that MOST men wouldn’t pay to see you strip but you were talking like you know your husband wouldn’t rather see you strip than some other woman.
I can believe you aren’t trying to beat yourself up but you seem to be drawing some pretty absolute conclusion.
Yeah but love itself can make you the most beautiful woman, regardless of your actual physical looks. I think many women are discounting this here, they’re too focused on their looks as seen by OTHERS and not as seen by their partner. It takes a supermodel to be 1/10th as attractive as the woman I loved, her looks aren’t perfect but I don’t care…her eyes n smile alone does something completely unique to me, those supermodels couldn’t do that to me unless I was in love with them. It’s hard to quantify attraction though since it’s a feeling, for many… Read more »
I’d be willing to bet you are a wholly beautiful and gorgeous lady. Like others say, beauty is subjective. I’d prefer women to feel better about themselves, as they are, in general.
Sarah, I have wondered why some women, and some men, do not have a problem with their partners becoming sexually aroused by someone else, someone (regardless of that person’s level of attractiveness) whom they are unable to equal simply because that person is not them. I have also wondered why their partner coming home to them demonstrates anything other than their partner did not have sex with the person who they would prefer to have sex with, and instead went to the SO and basically used them as a masturbation aid.
I’ve thought this too on numerous occasions, but I’m a paranoid little fucker with an anxiety disorder, so…
“I have also wondered why their partner coming home to them demonstrates anything other than their partner did not have sex with the person who they would prefer to have sex with, and instead went to the SO and basically used them as a masturbation aid.” That is a very disgusting way of thinking, wtf? The person goes out, is turned on sexually by others, they come home and HAVE SEX with their partner. Don’t you get it? You can be turned on by more than just your partner. That sexual energy is the sum of your days experiences. Do… Read more »
I used to read a forum where one could Ask Men relationship questions. I remember one male commenter in particular saying how women believe that their partners were turned on by them while they were having sex, when in reality the men were thinking of their current masturbatory fantasy woman.
Because every man is the same right?
EVERYONE is diff, some will do that, some will think of their love. Some women themselves will do it too….
“Because every man is the same right?”
I was unaware I had made such a generalization.
I jumped the gun a bit, apologies. Often there are negative generalizations of men with porn so it can muddy it up.
Good question! In truth, I’ve never felt victimized or exploited, because I’ve always accepted the challenges of my job, and feel that people’s negative feelings or statements are true reflections of their own insecurity or lack of understanding. When I’m dancing at the strip club, some people view me as a ‘slut’. However, slap some pasties on my nipples and utilize a theme, and it suddenly becomes ‘burlesque’ and is adorably retro. Pole tricks are work, talking to people for a living can be difficult, and being naked for strangers takes self security and confidence, at least in my own… Read more »
“The men and women that behave outrageously (insulting us, hooting like animals, pawing at us, giving dirty looks) are really only degrading themselves, by acting like either animals or badly behaved children.”
Hi-5, I HATE people like that. Look with respect or get out is what I believe.
When I’m dancing at the strip club, some people view me as a ‘slut’. However, slap some pasties on my nipples and utilize a theme, and it suddenly becomes ‘burlesque’ and is adorably retro. Pole tricks are work, talking to people for a living can be difficult, and being naked for strangers takes self security and confidence, at least in my own eyes. Do you think that is confidence is why some guys actually open up to strippers like they their own partners? The fact that a woman is willing to strip down to nearly nothing in front of a… Read more »
I’m an occasional porn consumer (probably about once a week because my wife like sex once a week and I like it twice.) I’m very grateful, though, that I came of age long before porn became so ubiquitous. So, for me, real sex is much more significant. In terms of porn, I like the rare real scene where it seems like both people are really into it, no anal occurs, and hopefully no facial ejaculation occurs. I can’t stand gangbangs or nasty talk, and I hate fast “pounding,” knowing, as I do, that most real women, not all, don’t like… Read more »
Your comment got caught up in moderation. I’ve deleted your second copy of the comment. Sorry for the delay on getting it out.
This was a great blog. I don’t know anyone in the porn industry, but I do know several women who have and who are still dancing. In my experience, they run the entire gamut of personalities and lifestyles outside the club. I do think that there is perhaps a significant distinction between dancing and doing actual porn with a non-significant other in that perhaps only a small number of people would feel entirely comfortable having penetrative sex with someone they felt no emotional or even friendship invlovement with. However, I do not think that is a subject for moral judgment… Read more »
But what about the objectification, man? Aren’t you, like, a victim or something? Must be some sort of false consciousness perpetrated by patriarchy. Clearly a damaged soul ravaged by male domination. [sarcasm] Seriously, though, I am curious how you would respond to the idea that you are a victim or subject of men’s objectification of women or of the commodification of women’s sexuality. What would you say to the people who see porn as a practice of oppression? I bet your definition of feminism is not the same as others. These are questions that go round and round on the… Read more »
Good Q! I responded to it on the bottom of the page, somehow the page timed out when I was originally trying to post….
Lol, this comment is so accurate it hurts!
WellOkayThen, is it wrong to see objectification in porn? Is it wrong to see the porn industry as defined through largely male fantasy? I understand that Elle doesn’t feel objectified by what she does and she enjoys it. I understand that she doesn’t feel that the industry is objectifying. But does that mean that it isn’t all around? As someone not in the industry, never have been in the industry and never will be in the industry, I personally see a lot in porn that objectifies and stereotypes women. Am I really wrong to say that? I don’t really think… Read more »
Like.
Interesting read, though I’m skeptical that the people one would meet at a porn shop are “a clear reflection of people as a whole.” That’s a bit like working the late late shift at a dive bar and suggesting your customers’ habits are a clear reflection of people’s drinking habits as a whole. No doubt you’ve come across all sorts of people from all walks of life, but I’d wager to guess a majority of people don’t frequent adult stores (they get their porn/sex toys the respectable way … online) and those who do have a different – or at… Read more »
True, however I’d be willing to bet my tips on it, because these people were the same variation of demographics: age, race, gender, socioeconomic status that I have seen working at a grocery store, a pharmacy, an ice cream shop, two clothing stores and a mall kiosk. The only difference?
No children.
I spent three months working the graveyard shift of a porn store and all it took were my first few transactions to realize a lot of these folks were confessing things to me they likely had not told anyone else. It made me feel strangely responsible. I definitely made every effort to treat them like how I would like to be treated in that circumstance.
I wrote about the experience for XOJane: http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/working-at-a-sex-store
PastorofMuppets,
Everyone has sex. Even your own parents. Almost everyone is interested in sex except asexual people (they exist, google their website). Why is it surprising that people who pretend to be asexual all the time actually go to porn shops and adult stores?
I remember asking the clerk at my local porn shop how on earth the place survives. He said “Not everyone is online.” A pretty sound answer. It applies everywhere where there are people who are not online, or do you figure I’m wrong?
Anyways…
Asexuality is what’s in your heart and your head, not who’s in your bed. Update your definition: it’s an orientation.
Excellent and fair-minded overview of both the industry and the people involved. Thanks for writing it!