Yoga pants aren’t just for the yoga studio anymore. And if the trend doesn’t die soon, Nathan Graziano may be doomed.
I’m obsessed with yoga pants. There, I said it. I can’t stop thinking about those damn yoga pants.
While I realize there is nothing shocking or revelatory about a heterosexual male saying that he has become captivated by a female fashion-trend that has obliterated the need for imagination, I like to think my obsession transcends the salacious. I like to envision myself as someone thoughtful and modern and progressive. But when it comes to yoga pants, I’m not.
Yoga pants have brought out my worst chauvinistic characteristics—the characteristics I’d like deny exist inside me. But when it comes to yoga pants, I can’t.
I understand that revealing clothing is nothing novel. For decades now, health clubs or fitness centers—we’ll use the word “gyms” for semantic purposes—have cultivated atmospheres not entirely dissimilar to soft-core pornography.
At any gym, on any given day, one can find both men and women, either scantily clad or in skintight workout clothes, who are in great physical condition, sweating and grunting and breathing heavy, pumping and pushing and thrusting. In microcosm, people at the gym are behaving according to their ascribed gender roles: the women trying to stay trim and sexy and fit and the men running and lifting to stay strong and hard and virile.
For my part, I am guilty as charged.
As a jogger, the New England winter—and my aversion to running on ice—recently drove me to join a gym for the sole use of a treadmill. But try as I may, earplugs inserted and Iron Maiden cranking and dimming my hearing, I have to employ a Buddhist-like asceticism to keep to from glancing at the attractive women and their yoga pants.
In fairness to myself, one cannot dismiss the biological components—the animalistic lure and the firing of pheromones—for both sexes of all sexual orientations, when an attractive person who is provocatively dressed passes the line of vision. It is reflexive, involuntary.
Let me start by saying that women have every right to wear whatever they want, where they want, without having to be leered at and objectified. Intellectually and philosophically, I know this. And the ex-Catholic in me tries his best to recognize the lechery and look away as the minutes and miles tick off on the treadmill’s dashboard in front of me.
Sometimes I succeed. Often I don’t.
My obsession, however, has been exacerbated by the ubiquity of women yoga pants outside of the gym. From supermarkets to bars and restaurants to semi-formal affairs, I can’t seem to escape women in yoga pants.
If the fashion doesn’t die soon, I consider myself doomed.
♦◊♦
I will be the first to admit that I have the fashion sense of an ashtray. I still haven’t moved past the ripped jeans, band t-shirts and flannel styles of the grunge-era. So if it is genuinely stylish for women to wear yoga pants everywhere at all times, I most-definitely missed this.
And when I ask women about yoga pants—hoping they’ll tell me the trend will pass—most women tell me that it isn’t that yoga pants are fashionable, per se, but they are comfortable to wear. As a claustrophobic guy, I couldn’t imagine being comfortable in anything that tight, but I’m going to suspend my disbelief and assume they are, indeed, comfortable.
But baggy sweatpants are also comfortable, so I can only assume there’s more to it. There is an implicit game here—the age-old tease where women flaunt and men look. Again, we’re simplifying ourselves according to a Y-chromosome.
Of course, fashion trends where women leave little to the imagination are not unprecedented. For example, I like to think the emergence of the bikini or the mini-skirt—hell, even the corset— in popular culture caused similar responses from men. And I know I’m not alone here. Websites and blogs, such as Girls in Yoga Pants, affirm for me the one thing I’ve always known about my gender: men are pigs.
But women are also complicit here. Again, I’m not asserting that the egregious rape-mentality of dangerous men—the ones who believe if a woman dresses provocatively, she is “asking for it”—has any validity. It unequivocally does not. However, I have a hard time believing that—outside of the gym or the yoga classes—women wear yoga pants solely for comfort.
Perhaps, the larger issue concerns, collectively, is our own frailties and vanities.
Whether we admit it or not, we all want to be noticed and desired and admired, men as well as women. And perhaps, in a culture blanketed with social media, the looming threat of loneliness has made us so insecure that we can’t leave anything up to chance or depend on another person’s imagination to do its work.
However, if I’m to believe Heidi Klum, one day in fashion you’re in, and the next you’re out. Yoga pants will likely pass, only to be replaced with another, perhaps, more revealing trend.
♦◊♦
And there I am, running like a gerbil on the treadmill. At 37 years old, I’m trying to ward off any impending middle-aged flab, trying to remain strong and youthful.
About ten yards in front of me, an attractive blonde with a high ponytail is doing step-aerobics in black yoga pants.
I stare and fear she knows, so I glance down at the dashboard on the treadmill. It reads, 29 minutes, 3.1 miles. Yet, somehow, I’m still going nowhere.
For responses to this article, please read:
Yoga Pants and Unexamined Assumptions by Noah Brand
Father and Son Have “The Talk” – The Yoga Pants Talk by Cornelius Walker
Read more Advice & Confessions.
Image credit: lululemon athletica/Flickr
About Nathan Graziano
You want to sneak a look at a woman’s butt? Go ahead. Chances are she’s doing the same to you. Just don’t assume we’re wearing yoga pants in order to torment you/turn you on. Don’t blame us because you feel guilty for having thoughts you deem inappropriate.
I wear yoga pants every day. I also teach Pilates. They are my work clothes. Should I change in the locker room before going out in public? Should I not teach certain moves because my clients might find such movements provocative?
Shall we go back to covering up piano legs because men might see them and have dirty thoughts about women’s gams?
I realize it’s difficult for some (of both genders) to wrap their heads around the fact that not everything we do is done with the idea of putting ourselves on display (or not), but it is the truth.
If I were a man, I’d be hugely insulted by the idea that I’m some kind of horny toad who can’t control myself.
Why do some men and women feel the need to slut-shame women because men get aroused? I don’t get it. Men get aroused REGARDLESS of what women are wearing—so it really makes no difference. For some guys a t-shirt and jeans is sexy. Can I not wear that either? Am i not suppose to wear anything that actually FITS my curves? Can we stop now? PLEASE?
Why is it that when men feel uncertain or insecure about their actions or feelings sexually women have to get blamed for it? Nathan sweetheart, it’s OKAY to notice an attractive person—-as long as you are not being rude and STARING at them as if theY have five heads.
No need to blame yoga pants. OR blame women. Or say that women should expect rude behavior because of yoga pants. Or try to act as if it’s not slut shaming by saying ‘women can wear what they want BUT…’
Or write and overly LOOONG article about it. Just be polite.
Yes!
I agree with many of the criticisms of the piece. Wear what you want to wear & no one should stare.
However, I would take issue with the above poster’s assertion that men get aroused regardless of what women are wearing. Yoga pants are my Achilles’ heel too. I find a woman in YPs sexier than a woman in lingerie, or even (seriously) naked. And yet, if they’ve decided to go with a denim skirt or shorts, I can avert my eyes with ease.
Not implying any logical conclusions or moral judgments here. Just saying.
Yeah. What EA says.
And Andy, YOU find them sexier than lingerie. Should we all dress YOU? Some guys prefer denim shorts. Then what? Are we all trying to taunt THEM if we where them? Seriously, yoga pants are ridiculously comfortable, and men have been saying stuff like this for hundreds upon hundreds of years, so excuse me as I roll my eyes.
I agree so much, EA. Yoga pants are comfy and I wear them on days when I’m feeling lazy and can’t be bothered to do much with myself. I had no idea I was such a hazard to men of the world. Too bad for them. I’m so tired of feeling like, as a woman, I constantly have to police what I wear because men apparently can’t control their lustful thoughts. It’s fucking ridiculous. Why don’t I just throw away all my clothes and start wearing a burka around? It seems like it’s getting to that point sometimes.
Ok, the ice cream truck analogy is just yuck and offensive. Maybe female and male street sex workers could be equated to ice cream trucks, as they are trying to sell how they look for a specific purpose, but they aren’t likely to glare at customers if they stop to buy. Also, they deserve respect, too. But a woman at the gym or the grocery store in yoga pants is not selling anything, they just want to be comfortable, or look good for themselves for a personal confidence boost, or both. Maybe sometimes clothes are chosen to attract others one is interested in, but not always, and it’s not a crime either way. For me, a male, I’m the same way but for slightly different reasons.
I wear a t-shirt, harem pants and flip flops to therapy quite often when it’s warm (I have a Bowflex at home due to agoraphobia, social anxiety, PTSD….) I go commando in any pants ever because underwear bugs the heck out of me; it constricts, binds and hurts. Partly due to my abusive childhood and also due to adult personal comfort, I am used to being naked in my own home. It’s really not to entice my boyfriend or girlfriend (yes I’m bisexual and poly) it’s for comfort. I put on clothes to go outside, or if my kids are around, of course. Clothes often make me feel trapped, and I used to be beaten if I wore any at home without permission as a child, so yeah, I have some serious crap I need therapy for.
Therapy involves “outside” though. I really don’t care if somebody’s offended (or if they stare) due to my harem pants. I wear them for comfort. No I don’t wear tight things like yoga pants, running shorts, or speedos, because: commando. Yikes. Harem pants hide a lot and are comfortable as a cloud.
Other times I wear what I call “armor” (jeans, boots, Deicide t-shirt, leather duster) specifically to keep people at bay. Same reason for my tattoos and piercings. I’m usually uncomfortable in jeans though. Leather pants (yes tight) are actually comfortable (to me), but they are rarely a choice for therapy, unless I want to look like King Diamond and frighten all the people who aren’t into Heavy Metal. Admittedly, this is at times my goal, because I am more afraid of them than they are of me.
If I dress for intentional sex appeal, I go for tailored designer suits. I have issues with “sex appeal” anyhow, with a face full of scars, but I do work out at home to maintain my dancer’s health (yes pole dancing, but also ballroom and Latin) and I guess for some people muscles and crotch are alluring even if the face could stop an ice cream truck. In any event, somebody else’s rare attraction to me isn’t my “fault”, nor does it mean I want their attention.
Yeah sometimes my harem pants are a bit much, but I don’t often dress for others (except to ward them off). If somebody finds my harem pants fetching, fine; I still don’t want anybody to approach me for any reason. I have a desperate need to be comfortable in therapy, and that is way more important to me than what anybody thinks of my clothes, for any reason.
By the way, folks, the generalizations are crap. “Men are pigs”? Please speak for yourself, not for me. I don’t leer at other people, men, women, or anybody along the glorious spectrum. I may see somebody attractive and appreciate it quietly in my mind. I may want to politely compliment them if I feel comfortable doing so and feel it may be welcome (but that is very rare and usually requires knowing them at least a little bit). But I don’t leer or stare, and I don’t try to chat them up with hopes attached. I just want to get therapy over with and get back to the safety of home.
In short, not all men are pigs, and all people can wear what they want for the reasons they want, or need to. They shouldn’t have to worry that others will be jerks about it or make them uncomfortable, or blame them.
Joanna, Julie, P.J., KKZ & Alyssa: I agree with you. Alyssa, you said: “If I were a man, I’d be hugely insulted by the idea that I’m some kind of horny toad who can’t control myself.” You’re right. As a man, that attitude does offend me, no matter what gender is saying it.
wrr
i have a style harem pants too, i also wear women’s clothing in public, so thumbs up from me man, for wearing harem pants in public
“There is an implicit game here—the age-old tease where women flaunt and men look.”
No. There isn’t. There is a game that you have imagined and decided is real because it takes the responsibility for your own actions off your shoulders.
“However, I have a hard time believing that—outside of the gym or the yoga classes—women wear yoga pants solely for comfort.”
This is why you have decided to imagine a “game” that doesn’t exist in actual reality. Simply because you would rather believe that all women are secretly and constantly desirous of male sexual attention does not make it true. I’m not clear on whether you are actually so lacking in imagination that the idea of “pants being comfortable” is beyond you, or whether you are just projecting an insecurity that causes you to seek out affirmation from others onto the women around you so that you have an excuse to “look”.
This quote has me leaning towards the latter, “Whether we admit it or not, we all want to be noticed and desired and admired, men as well as women.” Maybe just speak for yourself, and not for all women.
Nathan should stop worrying. I don’t think there is anything wrong with him being turned on by women in yoga pants. I wear them because they are comfortable. I doubt my 41-year-old figure would cause such a reaction, but I don’t care if men look at me, even in a somewhat obvious way.
I did yoga for quite a while. Wore the pants. Had alarming feelings about my groin being, I don’t know, alarming? I admit it. I stared at the yoga pants…MY yoga pants in the big mirror. Trying to make sure I wasn’t alarming my own alarms.
Yoga pants.
Nothing worse than an insanely long post to confess that YOU have an issue with women wearing yoga pants. Nothing to read here, move along. Geez.
You know what happens to me when I see a woman wearing yoga pants? Sometimes absolutely nothing. Sometimes I think the yoga pants are a neat colour/style/whatever. And then sometimes my unconscious brain goes, “hey that woman in yoga pants is hot,” and my conscious mind agrees and says, “oh yeah look at that, we’re looking at an attractive woman’s bum in yoga pants.” And after that moments-long internal dialogue, I look away and go about my day. The end.
When I’m at the beach and there are people all around wearing bikinis and swimming trunks, same thing. Sometimes I’ll notice that a particular bikini is a cool pattern. Sometimes I won’t notice anything at all. And sometimes my animal brain goes, “she’s attractive in that bathing suit.” And then my conscious mind will often agree and then turn my attention elsewhere…because staring at a woman is rude. Plus, looking at a sexy anonymous woman just isn’t all that interesting to me. (Keep in mind I’m a lesbian).
Yeah, some women are attractive to you and some of these attractive women are wearing clothing that you find even more attractive. Get over it.
Yes. Sensible, commonsensical, rational, balanced, human approach. Don’t drench yourself in guilt for feeling attraction to some people in some situations more than others, and don’t dump your issues on other people for wearing something you like. Enjoy, keep perspective, and move on.
When I see attractive women in yoga pants, all I think is “ugh I’m a chubby old hag, I think I will crawl back into my cave now and sob quietly.”. Thanks yoga girls, for making my day!
Dont worry, men are a lot more forgiving to women on their looks than the other way round.
Chubby women can look appealing too in yoga pants.
There is not one perfect body type of women that men admire. Women can be short, chubby, tall, thin, curvy, petite etc and still have sex appeal to their bodies.
Thank you, that actually does make my day.
For the love of all that is sensible and logical, PLEASE read the response from The Frisky if you agree with this man. Maybe hearing from an actual woman would help you understand that it’s not out fault you can’t stop sexualizing everything we do …
http://goo.gl/vTahI
Why is this even an issue? It’s not about the pants. If a woman is attractive to a woman, he’s going to look and vice versa. It’s human nature. However, be respectful. It’s only becomes an issue when someone crosses the line. Liking a fashion trend should not be a crime.
Correction “man attracted to a woman” sorry about that
To: Nathan
Re: Yoga Pants Obsession Guilt
Steps to Removing This Obstacle
Strategy: Immersion Therapy
1. Go to a yoga class at a hip gym in peak hours. Situate yourself at the back of the class. Follow along with the class, but remember your real purpose: Releasing the guilt.
2. Notice, but don’t leer, all of the various shapes and sizes of gluteal clefts, shapely thighs and pudendal mounds encased in LuluLemon and Prana all around you.
3.Notice any feelings of arousal that arise from the looking exercise.
4. Appreciate the arousal, for you are a man, and your man parts are working, and it is good.
5. Notice any feelings of guilt that arise from the looking and the arousal. Do not identify with these feelings of guilt. Do not judge them, do not become attached or form further opinions about them. Simply breathe through those feelings, allowing them to dissolve, until all that remains are feelings of appreciation, for yourself and for women and the female form.
6. Go back to step 2 until you feel free to compliment, without expectation, the next woman you see whom you appreciate.
Revo that is laugh out loud funny man. Well said.
Here’s the thing for me. I have practiced yoga for over ten years now off and on. When I go to yoga I am there really to let go of my mind. Distractions of any kind are not what I am looking for, they are what I want to release. For years I set up my mat at the front of the room for the very reason that I didn’t want to be distracted by women, men, or roving dogs in the class. Over time I moved back and realized the idea that to practice yoga is to be on my own mat in my own breath. The very idea of yoga and leering at some woman next to me are about as opposite as any two things could be. That is not to say that I haven’t at times had to struggle with all kinds of distractions. I have. But the goal is to breath and to experience my own body on my own mat.
Yoga is great. Eating is great. Laugher is a gift. Sex is amazing. Snowboarding is like flying on a fluffy cloud. Surfing is salty communion with the omniverse. Even changing a light bulb can be transcendental, with enough focus and appreciation. (how many humans who have ever lived, in the several million year history of humans, have ever even seen a light bulb, much less swapped a broken one?)
Their common thread, an ineluctable and total commitment to being in one’s body, here and now. Our eternal nowness need not be on a yoga mat. It’s everywhere. If we can only hold onto that, and not lose consciousness to non-now externalities like shame, guilt, worry, then we are free to experience the moment with not only maximum clarity, but also maximum joy and succor.
“And there I am, running like a gerbil on the treadmill. At 37 years old, I’m trying to ward off any impending middle-aged flab, trying to remain strong and youthful.
About ten yards in front of me, an attractive blonde with a high ponytail is doing step-aerobics in black yoga pants.”
How old was the blonde? Probably younger than the author. A lot of men don’t seem to even really like women their own age.
I never realized yoga pants where so sexual to men. I wear them because they are easy and comfortable. During the day I can wear them with boots and then when I am ready to go to the gym I just take my boots off, put on sneakers and change my top. They also hold in that part of my tummy that I don’t like very much without a button from my jeans digging into my skin.
Although I suspect it’s not really the yoga pants that is the issue. It’s simply all the attractive women the author wants but can’t have that happen to be in Yoga pants. We get it. Women are sexy to men. Of course, I am sure that the women the author notices fit stereotypical ideals of beauty.
I’m not really sure what to make of this piece. While not offensive, it doesn’t seem like we’ve come very far between men and women.
“Although I suspect it’s not really the yoga pants that is the issue. It’s simply all the attractive women the author wants but can’t have that happen to be in Yoga pants.”
No I can definitely say that for some of us guys its absolutely the yoga pants. For me personally, I’d rather see a woman in yoga pants (certain athletic shorts are nice too) than a mini skirt or even lingerie, and I see theres at least one other guy in this comment’s section who feels the same way. Now, not every guy may be into them as much as we are, but I can definitely say that a lot of the guys I know specifically like to see women in them, and the comments section here seems to reflect that as well.
Also just want to be clear in saying that I feel women should wear what they want and I understand why people are offended that the author is assuming that all the women that wear yoga pants do so to tease men.
Though I do think its somewhat ironic that you are assuming that Nathan isn’t being honest when he says its specifically the yoga pants that he likes, just like Nathan is assuming women aren’t being honest when they say why they wear them.
Which is bad how? If it turns out his favorite “type” to see in yoga pants are 200+ pounders over the age of 40, would that make him nobler or a man of greater integrity than if it’s more of a visual treat to see toned 20-somethings? If the point is about how we treat people, and how even people who don’t fit those stereotypical ideals are whole people who can be attractive in other ways, then I’d agree, but I don’t think that being turned out by what lots of people are turned on by is a character flaw.
“How old was the blonde? Probably younger than the author. A lot of men don’t seem to even really like women their own age.”
How tall was the blonde? Probably shorter than the author. A lot of women don’t seem to even really like men their own height.
Thinking about this thread earlier, and others on the “men and women and clothing” topic.
To be honest, yes, I think many women dress in ways specifically designed to turn men on. However, I don’t think the point of them dressing that way is to turn men on. I think it’s because being sexually attractive has social value. I certainly don’t imagine a woman putting on a pair of yoga pants and thinking “These make my ass look great, a bunch of guys are going to want to have sex with me!” I do imagine a woman thinking “These make my ass look great, I feel confident.”
I just don’t think its possible to separate the social value from the fact that men get aroused. If men didn’t get aroused, they wouldn’t start treating a woman better for dressing sexy, and women wouldn’t treat them better for looking like a sexy woman. There would be no social value, and hence no feeling of confidence. So, as far as I can tell, turning men on isn’t the goal, but the goal is something accomplished through turning men on.
Which got me thinking – if a woman feels powerful and confident when she dresses in a way that makes her look sexy, isn’t she playing into the “women are valued for their looks” idea? Isn’t it just a way of saying “How sexy I am determines my worth, and since I look very sexy right now I feel like I have a great deal of worth and therefore feel confident”? And if it is, what culpability does she have for carrying on such a harmful narrative?
Not that you’re wrong about any of that, BUT, you (and lots of other people) seem determined to avoid the idea that we wear yoga pants because they are both comfortable and functional. I live in them. Seriously, 7 days a week. Because they’re really comfortable, allow me to workout – whether I’m doing CrossFit or Pilates – and I can put on a nicer shirt and a decent pair of sandals and look totally presentable. Kinda perfect. I have not once thought to myself, “I bet other people will think I’m hot” in these. The most I do is a Camel Toe check, and I am pretty sure I’m not alone in any of this. At all.
It is entirely possible that women do things because they want to, for their own reasons, and honestly don’t give a damn how anyone else reacts to it. Let’s at least allow for the fact possibility that women do things for their own comfort and convenience, not to to turn on, manipulate, attract, crush or otherwise cause anything to happen in the brains or bulges of men.
And MediaHound, you kill me. And I suspect you’re right. Yay, the noble man who can objectify women’s bodies for his own sexual pleasure in a way that bucks media trends. Nothing specious about that kind of equality.
I don’t doubt that personal comfort and function are the main reasons many, if not most, women wear yoga pants. I’m not determined to avoid the idea – I just refuse the idea that something with so much obvious social value is done with absolutely no regard to that social value. I’m flatly skeptical that young toned women “just happen” to enjoy wearing the clothes that “just happen” to make them look good which “just happens” to result in everyone around them treating them just a little bit better on a day to day basis.
“I’m flatly skeptical that young toned women “just happen” to enjoy wearing the clothes that “just happen” to make them look good which “just happens” to result in everyone around them treating them just a little bit better on a day to day basis.”
Drew – see here’s my issue with your comment: each “just happens” reduces the sample size significantly… young toned women —> flattering clothing —> treated better
We’re down to a pretty small portion of the population to the point where generalized conclusions based on that exact scenario might be highly suspect.
Your logic is flawed. Men don’t inherently treat women better for “dressing sexy”. Attractive people are treated better, sure, but dressing “sexy” actually only has “benefits” in certain situations. And honestly– HONESTLY– I wear yoga pants because they are damn comfortable and great for DOING YOGA and Pilates and yes, even grocery shopping! I see yoga pants in my drawer and I think, “Pants.” I don’t think, “Oh, if I wear these, men will be aroused. And maybe then I will get “preferential treatment” (like, uh… someone will let me go first in line at the grocery store? Riiiight…). Do be honest, I’ve never even actually thought of them as sexy before. Is it really that unbelievable to think that yes, I feel confident because I look good and feel comfortable with out thinking that I am intentionally playing into a harmful narrative?
But beyond that, the culpability in any given situation lies with the people who have the power. In our culture, men hold the power: women hold less than 3% of clout positions in all media-related fields, which I think is pretty clearly reflected in commercials, movies, songs, tv shows, magazines, billboards, etc. So women don’t creative this narrative. What should they do? Intentionally dress “un-sexy”? What would that do? If this harmful narrative bothers you, stop viewing women as objects. Stop assuming everything they do is somehow for the benefit of men or to manipulate men to get some sort of benefit. Correct harmful sexist assumptions, vote in some capable women leaders, support the women in your life. Support media that shows women in diverse, complex roles, and that doesn’t objectify them. Quit looking for ways to put the blame on women regardless of the situation. We aren’t villans in yoga pants.
“But beyond that, the culpability in any given situation lies with the people who have the power. In our culture, men hold the power: women hold less than 3% of clout positions in all media-related fields, which I think is pretty clearly reflected in commercials, movies, songs, tv shows, magazines, billboards, etc.”
I seriously doubt your 3% proposition here. And also, media pander to what their public wants. Don’t like the magazine, the video, the movie, the song? Then you don’t buy it, they get less profit, and change their ways, because they want you to spend on them. See how they can’t truly impose their view?
Most women’s magazines are headed by women, they decide what goes in the magazine, what articles, and when, how, etc. Maybe a man owns the parent company of the magazine, but he probably has no word on what goes in the magazine, because he lacks any experience about it. He can’t dictate his way, he knows his high ups and shareholders would lose money over it (because it wouldn’t sell), and blame him.
“So women don’t creative this narrative. What should they do? Intentionally dress “un-sexy”? What would that do?”
If you don’t like the narrative. Ignore the narrative. It’s really that simple. And women have that power more than men. Since its choices women do that make the narrative even exist.
It’s easy to choose clothing not based on what magazines or fashion shows tell me is “in”. I just use my internal sense of aesthetics, and pick clothing based on its looks, not its effect on people. Heck, I might intentionally not pick certain clothing I like because it has a negative effect on people (you try wearing lolita fashion dresses – very cute stuff…if you like being stared at).
” Support media that shows women in diverse, complex roles, and that doesn’t objectify them”
Since women are the ones deciding to dress or not in certain ways, it’s their role to not pander to the media, and thus the media will change to reflect that, or become obsolete and useless (and not making money).
“It’s easy to choose clothing not based on what magazines or fashion shows tell me is “in”. I just use my internal sense of aesthetics, and pick clothing based on its looks, not its effect on people. Heck, I might intentionally not pick certain clothing I like because it has a negative effect on people (you try wearing lolita fashion dresses – very cute stuff…if you like being stared at).”
Good point. If women are dressing the way they do 100 percent because it just happens to be what they like, how do fashion trends occur? Millions of women, by crazy random totally chance happenstance start to have an entirely independent proclivity for the same type of clothing?
I think its funny that I’m told I treat women like objects when I say I think women dress a certain way because dressing that way provides them with social value… considering the fact that I’m saying they dress that way based on their own agency which is something an object could not do.
It’s no different with men ether. men dress in suits to look more professional, which gives an air of success and wealth. This helps with many social interactions, from business to relationship. Am I being hateful or controlling of men acknowledging this point? Am I treating men as objects for pointing this out? Of course not. It’s a foolish argument to dismiss the impact our appearances have in social scenarios, or to pretend that influence plays no part in how we dress, men and women alike. If sexual appeal wasn’t a factor, women’s suits would not have taken on the cuts they have.
“If this harmful narrative bothers you, stop viewing women as objects.”
And this here, the part where you accuse me of viewing women as objects, is why I’m not going to reply to you anymore. You are not worth my time to engage with.
Drew – you raise an interesting question about the link between dress and social value, but inserting sexual attractiveness and confidence between those two is problematic. I had a professional mentor who was the highest ranking woman in a Fortune 100 company. She said over the course of her career she had learned that being (thin and) sexually attractive actually undermined her ability to be taken seriously (as did being overweight). She extracted the highest value from her professional encounters when her body was relatively invisible and unnoticed. (Perhaps just like the men she was dealing with.)
My point is, there most probably is a strong link between dress and social value but the dynamics of that link are highly variable and depend heavily on circumstance and the individual woman (I would love to be a single-digit size and might feel more attractive and confident if I were, but other commenters have mentioned that same size makes them unattractive.) People (women and men) use their bodies and the clothes they put on their body for all sorts of purposes, sometimes it is to increase their social value, other times it might be the utility of staying warm or comfortable.
Good post. You’re right, I should consider the issue of clothing and social value with more nuance. Thank you.
… How is this even a conversation still?! They are pants. PANTS! Not even short, skin revealing pants. Can’t be tighter than most skinny jeans. So women can’t wear pants that are tight or things that make your butt look good by happensstance because some guys can’t handle it? What turns me on most is a guy in jeans and button downs, or a nice v-neck. Should they stop?? I just can’t control my emotions and I might become harmfully obsessed with them because of my lady-hormones… Puhlease. Honestly, men who are complaining, GET OVER IT!
I’ve seen very few people imply that women shouldn’t wear what they want. Almost everyone here, including the author agrees that women should wear whatever they please. One of the main points of the article is the temptation and later guilt men feel when they want to check out women wearing something they find really appealing, but that women are just wearing for comfort or other practical purposes. You say, “Not even short, skin revealing pants.” as if thats what men “should” find more appealing, but a lot of us think yoga pants look particularly attractive, sorry but we do. Thankfully most of the women here have said they don’t mind a quick glance as long as you don’t stare and many have admitted to doing the same.
The big controversy is over his statement that most women wear yoga pants to be attractive to men, which is being largely criticized.
Well the point is that’s what YOU find attractive, but most of my life, I’ve heard people speaking out about girls who “show too much skin”. So it’s just getting ridiculous… what am I “allowed” to wear?! Girls who wear baggy sweats are “frumpy”. Girls who wear tight pants are “asking for it”. People assume that women should dress depending on what guys do or don’t find attractive, or that it’s a women’s responsibility to control a man’s impulses. This leads to a rape apology culture… that somehow, men simply can’t overcome their biology, or than women are somehow “asking for it” and should expect it.
But women are also complicit here. Again, I’m not asserting that the egregious rape-mentality of dangerous men—the ones who believe if a woman dresses provocatively, she is “asking for it”—has any validity.” … Actually yes, yes you are. “However, I have a hard time believing that—outside of the gym or the yoga classes—women wear yoga pants solely for comfort.” (Clearly, female brains don’t work the same as male brains, because I, for one, do). This article is hugely problematic, and I can’t believe it was allowed to be published by a website that’s trying to form “good men”.
But again almost no one here is saying your “not allowed” to wear anything. As you say, no matter what you wear theres probably some group of guys out there that have a thing for that, and based on your tone it almost sounds like this fact bothers you and I’m not sure why. The fact that a man expresses his guilt and conflict over what women are wearing doesn’t automatically mean hes trying to shame them or tell them what they should wear.
Like I said before the main controversy over this article seems to be over Nathan’s assumption that all women wear yoga pants specifically with men in mind, and I agree that this is not something he should have said. However I don’t think it was fair of you to make the leap you do in your second paragraph. The article expresses the sentiment that all those women are teasing men, which again I agere is wrong, but that doesn’t automatically mean hes falling in line with rape-mentality. Its a huge leap to go from “Women are teasing men,” to “that woman was asking for it so I raped her”, and I don’t think it was fair of you to make that leap for the author. The fact that you think someone is teasing or toying with you doesn’t mean you think they are “asking for it” or that you think rape is ok.
Ok, so here’s what we do. We replace all the references in this article to yoga pants with “pizza”, and sweatpants with lasagne, and women, with “you” (as in the author), and the author with “me’ (the person commenting).
What do we end up with apart from some odd mad libs. We end up with a situation where I start out with a bit of false self deprecating humour about me having this crazy obsession with pizza, but very quickly we degrade into how everywhere I go you just happen to be there, eating pizza. But I’m obsessed. I want me some o’ that good greasy food of the gods. But I can’t. I have to try real hard not to rip that artery clogging food crack out of your hands and devour it whole.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’d be your fault if I just pounced on you and devoured your pizza.
But… I kinda am. Just a little bit. Because, I mean, you could be eating lasagne. I don’t like lasagne as much, it’s not nearly as sexually attractive. Wait. Tasty. Yeah, we’re talking about food here. You probably like lasagne, I’m totally right in assuming that I know your tastes. And for that reason, I’m totally right in gradually sloping towards saying that you wake up in the morning, and decided to eat pizza, because you know I like pizza. That’s just the kind of tastebud tease you are. You just like to dangle that slice of saturated fat, gluten and misc organ meats in front of my face because you know, you just know that I want it. You love seeing me fight the urge to rip that melted rotten breastmilk slathered bad boy right out of your hands. Because that’s how you roll.
It’s totally impossible that you just like pizza, for your own reasons, and you have a right to enjoy it, without having your motives questions, and most importantly, it is entirely impossible that your pizza, is your pizza, and not something that I have a right to police, control, or lay judgment on.
Because, you know, if I laid judgment on your pizza, that kinda displays an attitude where I kinda think I have a right to tell you what to eat and where to eat it. And I’m not talking about you waving that pizza in my face, I’m talking about you just sitting on the park bench I happen to walk past, or after the gym. Thing is, if I have a pizza problem, that’s on me, I should stay away from pizza places. If you come into my house and eat pizza and rub it on my face while I’m asleep – that’s different. Why should what you choose to eat, which doesn’t hurt me, or even actually cause you to interact with me, give me right to write this article that basically reduces you to a grease mongering pizzacrack dealer?
Or hey, how about this. Straight gentlemen wear nice jeans sometimes right? Well, those jeans give certain other gentlemen boners. Clearly, you wear them for those gentlemen, because you know they like it, and because you like to tease. I mean, why else? You could wear sweatpants. They’re comfy after all.
“Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’d be your fault if I just pounced on you and devoured your pizza.
But… I kinda am.”
Yup, we’re all just rape apologists. What an incredibly fair assessment.
You took that out of context. You forgot the rest of the sentence, which included “just a little bit”. And there is a major element of slut shaming and “well, you COULD dress more modestly”, with associated implications of blame, going on in there.
The author complains about the temptation being dangled in front of him, and places the blame for that on women because they obviously dress like that to tempt him. That, like it or not, is in the same vein as rape culture. It’s not nearly as pronounced, but it is an attitude that needs to change, both for the sake of women and men. Clearly there is an unhealthy attitude of guilt around sexuality, when really that guilt should be around reducing individuals to nothing more than a vehicle for one’s desires.
I’m not going to say men in general have this issue, but what I’m seeing here is an individual who believes appreciating sexy posteriors is bad, and because he feels guilty about that, he’s trying to blame it on the women with the sexy posteriors, assuming that they’re wearing tight pants just to tempt him. He’s mistaking sexuality for objectification, feeling guilty about what he likes, which isn’t wrong, while perpetuating something that actually is harmful – slut shaming.
The author is speaking about the temptation to LOOK, not to take by force. Your adding the element of taking by force converts it from something which should be harmless, but for some reason, the author clearly feels noticable guilt and shame over, into the realm of assault. So no, I don;t think Drew was out of line for what was said. you’re the one that changed the context from looking to taking by force.
“You took that out of context. You forgot the rest of the sentence, which included “just a little bit”.”
Yes, entirely out of context. We’re “just a little bit” rape apologists.
I get it. It’s difficult to respond to the actual point being made (that being sexually attractive is one of many factors that determine the way women dress), so you’ll just go ahead and build up the slippery slope strawman of “If you think she’s wearing those pants to look sexy, you must think it would be okay for you to rape her! She’s just asking for it, isn’t she?”
That’s right up there with “if you think it’s okay to get an abortion, you must think it’s okay to murder anybody you want at any time for any reason!” Not buying it.
Like it or not, the attitude of blaming women for male lust is in the same vein as rape culture. It blames women for men’s lust and behaviour. There are other factors, yes, and I dealt with those too. But you chose to pick on one particular thing, ignoring the whole issue. You could perhaps try to consider how you would feel in the situation I outlined – the whole situation. If it wouldn’t be good and happy, then perhaps you should consider the parallels to it in the article.
Rape culture isn’t just about blaming women for rape, it’s about blaming women for things they can’t control, like how men react to clothing. And it’s worth noting that in cultures where women’s clothing choices are most strongly controlled, rape is horrendously common. That tells us that the attitude of blaming women’s clothing choices, or hair colour, or how they smell, or where they workout, for the behaviour of men, whether it be leering, objectifying or actual assault, is harmful. It’s part of a greater attitude that degrades women to little more than walking bags of flesh. It’s wrong, and hopefully one day it will stop.
You’ll also note, that the article used words like ‘age old tease’ and ‘implicit’, and talks a lot about guilt and piggishness (I personally don’t like that term, pigs are smart and clean and loving), and then puts the blame for that on women. What the author may want to consider is that arousal is not intrinsically shameful, and nor is noticing. Leering, open staring, and harassment are not cool.
Maybe then he wouldn’t feel the need to blame women for his own issues.
” That tells us that the attitude of blaming women’s clothing choices, or hair colour, or how they smell, or where they workout, for the behaviour of men, whether it be leering, objectifying or actual assault, is harmful.”
And who in holy hell did here, on this thread, say that leering, objectifying, or assaulting a woman is okay, under any circumstance?
Ya know, I really love the whole “well you think it’s okay for a man to look because a woman is dressed sexy, you must think it would be okay for a man to rape her because she’s dressed sexy. Its the same concept!”
Just like “If you get an abortion, you’re ending an innocent human life. So you must think any kind of murder is okay. It’s the same concept!”
Or “You support taxation for fire, police, and EMS services for everyone? You must be a socialist who thinks everyone should share everything equally! Rob from the rich and give to the poor who have done nothing to earn it, right?”
Or “You say it’s your body and you can eat what you want? You must think you can eat someone else’s food or eat a human baby if you want, because you can eat ANYTHING you want, right?”
Or “You think spanking is okay? You must think it would be okay for a parent to starve and mercilessly beat a child, since it’s entirely up to them how to raise it! Right?!”
…see, there are plenty of other bulls**t ways we can play the “Well if you think X, and we expand on the concept of X to a ridiculous extent, we can infer that you must believe Ridiculous Conclusion Y!”
The “slippery slope fallacy” is a well known fallacy for a very good reason, Rave.
That’s either pizzandrist or lasagynist, or maybe both, but I’m too hungry now to tell. That’s your fault.
That’s the second roaring laugh you’ve gotten from me in as many days. Good show, Mr. Williams.
Yoga pants are extremely comfortable AND make my butt look good. It’s great we can have dual purpose clothing.
Like it or not, the Yoga bum is a fashion accessory and is marketed as such.
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/yoga/butt-muscles
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/lululemon-goes-to-court-to-remove-calvin-kleins-pants/article4482297/
“Lululemon’s skyrocketing popularity has been built on stylish athletic apparel – especially its bum-accenting yoga pants. Its success has fuelled competition, however, and this week the Vancouver-based retailer filed suit against rival Calvin Klein Inc., launching a war over a waistband.”
Under this all, I feel profoundly sad that we still live in a culture in which people of either gender have to take their sexual arousal with a heavy dose of shame. And take other people’s feelings personally. I get turned on and aroused by countless things each day. I consider myself lucky.
Me, too. I suspect, though it hasn’t been framed as such in this discussion, that there’s a religious component to this. Not in an intentional way, but if you’re trained to believe that lust is a sin (and a deadly one at that), and even lust “in your heart” makes you guilty (so you don’t even have to act on it for it to be evil), that’s going to mess with your ability to enjoy or accept lust. I shed the religion and faith that taught me that a long time ago, but I still haven’t completely shed the feelings of guilt and shame about how much I want sex or enjoy looking at attractive women.
I was Catholic, and if you ask priests or devout Catholics about whether they think or teach that sex and sexual thoughts are shameful, I guarantee the answer will be no, that sex is a beautiful gift from God and absolutely should be enjoyed and treasured, it’s just that God wants it to be unitive and procreative. Any other kind of sex is a departure from that and therefore sinful, but godly sex is a beautiful wonderful thing. That sounds really sex-positive, right? It makes all sorts of sexual thoughts and activities shameful to someone who goes along with that, though, like masturbation, oral sex, birth control, and homosexuality, to name but a few.
I get that same vibe from much (but not all) of the feminist blogosphere and discussions like these, that swear feminism is sex-positive, and replace “unitive and procreative” with “enthusiastic consent”, and “sin” with “rape culture”, but the logic of it leads just as inevitably to shame and guilt, and more Don’ts than Do’s. Like Catholicism, a thought or reflexive desire is frequently treated as no different from having acted on on it. Unlike Catholicism, the lust-negativity isn’t as unisex, so it manages to get celebrated or justified for women, but men ought to be ashamed.
There are exceptions, as I consider you to be, Alyssa, or also Julie G. to name a couple, but such exceptions are shunned so consistently by self-declared “real feminists”, that I don’t find the exceptions characteristic of feminist thinking any more than my prototype for a Catholic is a liberal priest or nun who would get the smackdown from Church higher-ups if they’re caught doing things like advocating for birth control or women priests.
I agree with you Marcus. The tone of the piece and much of the conversation has a very puritanical edge to it.
I’ve noticed that, too. The social crime of “objectifying her in your mind” sounds awfully similar to the sin of “lusting after her in your heart.” Sounds like we’ve just swapped out one invasive, repressive clergy for another.
My yoga pants are also my maternity pants….I don’t think I look attractive at all in them with my sweaty t-shirt and my hair in a messy topknot (but hey, the fact that I made it to 6AM yoga class is a miracle in itself)….
While I go to yoga class just to do yoga, I cannot deny that the yoga instructor is really hot (think Johnny Depp crossed with Donny Osmond), but I’m a married woman so yoga and no talking is all that goes on in class….[BTW, he does not wear yoga pants...just sweats, I think]….there is some hint of sensuality or sexual sparks…or maybe there isn’t….when I am doing “downward dog” and he corrects my position by putting his hand on my lower spine or touches the sides of my hips to remind me to lift a little higher….read into this (or don’t read into this what you will)…I guess it depends what kind of Desperate Housewife you are….