Every time you pressure a man to perform masculinity in a certain codified, narrow way—you are traumatizing him. The man-box itself is an act of violence.
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On today’s Evangelist conference call, Good Men Project publisher and CEO Lisa Hickey talked about her insights gleaned while attending the International Conference on Masculinities. One of the panels she had gone to was on men and trauma, and she explained how Christopher Anderson, a Good Men Project contributor and Executive Director of MaleSurvivor.org had spoken about having a trauma-based framework to look at both men and life in general. That is, we need to start assuming men have or will be traumatized at some point in their life, and give them a model to deal with that trauma. And that trauma support should be taught to everyone—just like CPR or sex ed is taught. And Chris had come up with a model which was “Believe, Be Present and Thank You”. If everyone had just that that framework for dealing with people who had trauma, the world could be a better place.
A second speaker on that same panel was Steven Botkin of Men’s Resources International. He spoke about how the pushing men to “stay inside the man box” and conform to a very narrow definition of masculinity is, by its very nature, traumatizing to men. When someone says “man up” or “c’mon, be a man” or “don’t be a sissy” or “you’re so gay” — the intention is to traumatize a man into not behaving in a way that is natural to him. The man box itself, therefore, is an act of violence.
We then opened it up to discussion:
Jed Diamond: As someone who has lived with and worked with these issues for many years, I appreciate this perspective. “Believe us. Be present”. That allows the silence to be broken, a silence I do attribute to the man-box. The Man Box tells us we should handle pain and hurts by ourself. There was a cartoon I saw a while back, a couple is sitting at a table, and the man has a fork stuck right in the bridge of his nose. And the woman is the cartoon is saying, “That’s what I like about you Lou, you’re tough.” There is also an expectation that men should be traumatized because that is the ritual of being a man, it is part of what it means to be a man—that you should be able to handle it. If we as individuals can solve this, it is one of the most important social problems we can solve. If we can solve this problem, I believe, so many other problems of the world can also be solved.
Travis: As a victim of abuse and as an adult, I often find myself wondering how much of social slights I should live with. If someone makes an off-color comment, where do I draw the line? Where do I jump in?
Jed Diamond: “One of the things I have learned is to just say “ouch!’ when I hear something that hurts. It is a quick way of acknowledging my own hurt and letting someone else know that something they said hurts me.
Kozo Hattori: There’s a saying you’ve probably heard: “hurt people hurt people.” But with men—when they are traumatized, men are taught that it is not trauma. So as a man, you are hurt and you don’t know you are hurt and then you go out and hurt other people. There is a model for forgiveness that says in order for there to be real forgiveness you need a confession of the trespass, discernment and then forgiveness. And I wonder if now that that confession has been made that the man-box is a violent act, we can start to forgive the man-box and move forward.
Mike Patrick: When you speak of ‘hurt people hurt people’ consider the source. That is, what we really need to do is to figure out how to get that hurt person to deal with his or her pain, so that the hurt doesn’t come out against someone else.
Mark Sherman: Men still are seen as jerks. Their stories are not seen as important. Women are seen as victims but men are not seen as victims. This too may be part of the man-box.
Jed Diamond: When we see people hurting others—with woman we often look for what has happened to them. We look for the source. But with men, it’s just a part of ‘being a man’ we don’t look for the source.
Kozo Hattori: A good example of this, to your point Jed, is the show “Orange is the New Black”. It takes place in a women’s prison, and every episode tells the backstory of women—how they got there, what there past life is. And in every case, you find out the woman was a perfectly normal, fine and compassionate human being who happened to get thrown into these terrible circumstances that forced her to do whatever terrible deed ended her up in jail. On the other hand, the men on the show—they’re just all dickheads. The show never tells these men’s backstory. OITNB portrays these men as being dickheads just because they are men. They have no backstory. On the show, only women have backstories.
Brent Greene: I just joined in this call a few minutes ago. I want to talk about a significant news event that happened as part of a fraternity at the University of Oklahoma. First of all, understand that fraternities themselves are part of a male alpha movement….And as a member of a franternity myself, I quickly found out that the fraternity I had joined when I was in college was not favorable to other religions, races, etc. I was disgusted with this after 6 months. But in addition to the extraordinary treatment of hazing, you were also pressed all the time to conform to a very narrow point of view. You were called out any time you stepped out of he range of acceptability—whether it was the way you wore your hair, what sweater you wore, or what girl you dated. And this one event at the University of OK continues to write the narrative of what bad men are like.
Jed Diamond: For anyone who hasn’t seen these, there is a series of articles by Mark Greene, and one in particular that I want to point you to is “Why Do We Murder the SBeautiful Friendships of Boys?” Mark’s articles speak to the woundednss of men and how men get sucked into the man box. And by the time those boys get to fraternity age, we don’t realize they are wounded,
Brent Greene: The fraternities try to be helpful, and certainly some are, but some are still creating the worst type of social manipulation possible, where they break down the boys confidence, break down their spirit, and then encourage them to go out and hurt others.
Lisa Hickey: As you were talking, Brent, I recognized some of those same tactics in the PUA community . For those who don’t know, PUA’s are Pick up artists—and they teach men—young men, just out of college—to pick up women by insulting them, hurting them—it’s the same sort of social manipulation you were talking about. So the cycle continues.
Also – panel I was on at the International Conference on Masculinities was about men and fraternities. And there were some angry people in the crowd – school administrators were angry because they didn’t know what programs were actually effective in changing behavior about sexual assault on their college campuses. “Where is the research?” they were asking, and rightfully so.
Mark Sherman: I’ve been trying to get a White House Council for Boys and Men—there is already one for Women and Girls. Part of that panel would be to get more funding for research. Because we don’t know what it is going on with boys.
Lisa Hickey: This is going to sound absurd, but I think part of the man box is the part that says ‘don’t do the research…we’re fine, we’re good, we’re in control here. Nothing to see, move along.’ And that is why it is so important that we change that narrative, get this conversation out there.
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What do you think? Is the Man-Box inherently traumatic? Please join this important discussion in the comments.
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Photo composite: ArenaGroove and Trevor Butcher / flickr
I think it is important to remind women that men define themselves, not women. Every time I see facebook image with the words “a real man” followed by a description of how a woman wants to be treated; it makes me want to puke.
A real defines himself, and is not defined by a woman’s desires.
Another thing to consider is how did the manbox change in relation to the Feminist challenge. At first it was threatening but hasn’t man’s role been broadened as a result of the challenge and consequent discussion?
Broadened by default and/or out of need. Some men who have become the caregivers would jump at the chance to return to their careers as would many of the women jump at the chance of going back to staying home.
Many women are working out of financial need and not motivated by career.
I’d also like to point out that those who desire men move out of the “man box” would seldom be okay with a man simply being a (childless home) house husband., He’d still be viewed as a lazy bum.
So, I am not sure this is as true as you imagine it: “When we see people hurting others—with woman we often look for what has happened to them. We look for the source. But with men, it’s just a part of ‘being a man’ we don’t look for the source.” From another article recently on this site: “In another project, researchers asked people to read a mock police report about either a man or a woman who punched a person of the same gender in front of a potential romantic partner. When they were asked to evaluate the motivations… Read more »
@ Tom Brechlin “Something that bothers me is that there is so much attention given to working outside that “man box”and very little attention given to the positives that are in that box.” I’m going to do you one better. No one really looked at why the gender roles were there in the first place. I remembered references in ancient Greece to people being born as both men and women and they were in search of their other halves. I don’t remember the original source, but this web site quotes Plato. “According to Greek mythology, humans were originally created with… Read more »
Interesting point John and I’m glad you said “deconstructing gender roles” because that’s what I see happening. Whereas the deconstruction of men is a relatively new phenomenon that men are oblivious about it happening, women have been deconstructed for many years.
I will be long gone before seeing the end result of both but I predict that it’s not gonna look good.
It may be a matter of semantics. Change “man box” to “man canvas” and you can pick up the paint brush and paint the portrait of your choosing. As always, interpretation of the portrait is beyond the artist’s control…
Something that bothers me is that there is so much attention given to working outside that “man box”and very little attention given to the positives that are in that box. I completely agree that it’s vital for men to expand who they are but at the same time, I see males also losing site of their natural tenancies to be leaders, protectors, the financial supporter of his family. Men grieve differently then women but the trend is if a man doesn’t cry in the open, he’s holding back and his holding back is a result of the “man box” and… Read more »
Tom
I have never in my entire life heard anyone say something negative about a man that wants to take care of his family economically.
But tell me,why do the oldest men , the men that do not have a woman, committ sucide?
I mean lets imagine a healthy man,but old 80+.
Is he too lonely or is it an inability to do the daily tasks,or is it no meaning in life when the woman is gone?
I wish I could understand.
Hi Silke, You said “…negative about a man that wants to take care of his family economically. Here in this country, it’s a well known fact that people perceive the proverbial “male breadwinner” as being misogynistic or at the very least his role as such as negative result of a misogynistic society he grew up in. Often times, when the wife doesn’t work, the husband is expected to share the household chores. And especially when there are kids in the home dad is expected to pick up the slack when he comes home from work. With respect to your question… Read more »
Tom I wonder if it is easier to be man in Norway than in your country,in the period after we found oil in the North sea. And I also wonder if it is harder to be a woman in Norway than in it is in the US. The way I see it and I think many others in my culture see it the same way. A man that work and earn money to provide ,and take of his family is not deminished if the women he lives with also work and bring in money. He provides economically the same way,… Read more »
typo
They need all the hands they can get
I mean they say they need women in the workforce .
Tom
I do not understand why old men do not want to live.
The old women I see in my family also took care of others all their adult life,but they do not committ sucide but goes on living .
The Swedish film producer Ingemar Bergman became a widower. He said in an interjvue ” I had never imagined it to be so hard to age with dignety”.
Silke, older women who took care of their family as nurturing moms are able to comfortably maintain that role as grandma or at the very least, nurturing their adult children.
As a grandfather, I’m still providing for my family in the ways that I always have and have not experienced the “you don’t know what you’re talking about old man” as many men have experienced. Moms are still revered and respected as elderly women, men not so much.
“In addition to the extraordinary treatment of hazing, you were also pressed to conform to a certain point of view all the time. You were called out anytime you stepped out of the range of acceptability…” That’s funny that you say that…. My husband had a friend who made him his drinking buddy and his little puppet….they would go drinking and I would see this friend constantly pushing the limits…his behavior became more and more controlling….this guy was very financially successful and fun for a time, but as his behavior got uglier, I had to put on the brakes to… Read more »
Do you want to know where the men are in this man-box? They are still boys. Gone are the male mentors who can show them how to live in a world that doesn’t always care. Gone are the fathers who can show them how to be vulnerable. Gone are the female mentors who can show them what the standards they expect of men. Gone are the mothers who can show them how to deal with pain and loss. Gone are the peers who can accept them for who they are. Gone are the male friends who they can share their… Read more »
Luke, We have lost a lot, but we’ve also kept a lot. Boys and men are breaking out of the Man Box, but we often don’t recognize it. In her excellent, highly readable, and soundly researched book, Deep Secrets: Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of Connection, Harvard research psychologist Niobe Way (http://niobeway.com/) uncovers the hidden world of early adolescent male friendships. In the book, based on research over the last twenty years, she recounts stories of boys sharing their deepest feelings about the importance of male friendships. Here’s 15 year-old Justin talking about friendships: “My best friend and I love… Read more »
Thanks Jed I will.
I feel we may be confusing the symptom with the disease. The strict role(s) are not the cause of loneliness and neither is their lack of emotive expression – whatever this means. These things are important to be sure, but neither is the cause. It’s much simpler I feel. The social networks for men are structured around activities and when such activities dry up, or become monotone as in only existing in a work context, then the social networks wither and disappear. Men build camaraderie by simply being together, not specifically by being together in a certain way that uses… Read more »
It surprises me to hear that there is no research .
without emotional abuse of the small boys from an early age it would be impossible to make men conform and accept to male box.
Yes there is abuse ,there must be emotional abuse ,invalidation of feelings on a large scale from the day a boy is born.
this is not something that starts in puberty???????
Lisa Hickey said: “I think part of the man box is the part that says ‘don’t do the research…we’re fine, we’re good, we’re in control here. Nothing to see, move along.” This is a core problem, indeed. I’ve come across this with men I want to get to know as platonic friends, but when they give the impression they want a person to “pull teeth” just to get them to open up, I’m done. It’s too much work. I don’t allow myself to get into the role of counselor and teacher with those I consider peer and colleagues. I have… Read more »
What bothers me about what you said is that if a man doesn’t conform to the way you want them to, they aren’t worth the bother. One of the many things I’ve learned in my career is that you meet the client to where he is, not where I want him to be. There is a reason why males don’t put their guards down. At the same time. You said “… seem shallow even if they aren’t.” You automatically assume that the guys is “shallow” if he doesn’t open up? If anything, I would see him as “guarded.”
GemGirl: I’m with Tom, here. I feel like you don’t seem to get it, that many men don’t “open up” because they have tried in the past and been traumatised for it, when the person told them ‘don’t cry’ or ‘man up’ or when the person they were opening up to froze because they ‘didn’t know what to do’. You lack of patience is, really, part of the problem in my view. A man will need to build trust before he opens up, because he’s likely had a negative history of opening up with others. In my view, on the… Read more »
I have to agree with Tom as well. This is a core problem, indeed. I’ve come across this with men I want to get to know as platonic friends, but when they give the impression they want a person to “pull teeth” just to get them to open up, I’m done. It’s too much work. I don’t allow myself to get into the role of counselor and teacher with those I consider peer and colleagues. I have no interest in coaxing meaningful conversations out of people who seem shallow even if they may not be. Let me ask you something.… Read more »
This kind of thing, (not so much the performance itself as the comments): http://kos.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=PB4%2FNQ3JEN3DBbkVHwR9zZD3eZDAXsMu makes me sick. It is so easy to hate men, our hatred for one another just flows like water. How else could ISIS raise an army, and how else could we write the whole lot of them off as deserving death. We can see the inhumanity of this man, and care only about the child and the mother. But where, exactly did his humanity go? It did not ‘go into a bottle’. It was wasted by our culture long before that. Every time we see this… Read more »
Great point Jon. Back stories of men are seldom brought to surface. We hear about women who have murdered a child, one case here in Naperville. Not only was there an out pour of empathy for the mom where the media portrayed her as mentally ill and gave every excuse under the son for her, but they turned on the dad, blaming him, that he should have seen the signs. What message does this send? “President Obama’s fiscal year 2016 budget eliminates all funding for the Centers for Disease Control prostate cancer program.” It says that men are disposable, unimportant.… Read more »
You can see the difference in those 20/20 or Dateline like shows that cover the actions of a killer. If you look at ones that cover male killers you’ll see that they get nowhere near the sympathy that female killers get.
I was watching the show Snapped a few nights ago. It’s a show that profiles female killers. First off the show is called “Snapped” to imply that something drove them to kill and that’s exactly how the stories are portrayed.