Yashar Ali believes that having consciousness about the daily struggles of women makes him a better man.
The other day, my friend Dina was talking about her experiences of being catcalled—street harassment is a more accurate term—while walking around the streets of New York. This wasn’t the first time I’ve heard about the epidemic of street harassment. Many of my women friends have remarked about experiencing and dealing with this kind of harassment and how unsafe it makes them feel.
For Dina, one particular instance of harassment on the streets of New York was cemented in her memory. She was walking alone, during the day, on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, when she heard a man taunt her, “Hey baby, you’re lookin’ good…”
“Don’t call me baby,” she responded.
He looked her up and down and said, “…fucking dyke.”
For the record, Dina is straight—not that it would have been okay if she weren’t.
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This wasn’t the first, nor will it be the last time Dina faces street harassment. She has been
harassed in public places, and on a number of occasions, followed by men. Many studies
indicate that almost 100 percent of women will face some sort of street harassment at one point
in their lives.
Most men don’t even realize street harassment exists as a very real, serious problem. Yet, many women see this kind of harassment as part of daily life. For the few men who are aware of it, they assume the extent of street harassment is something akin to harmless, or at worst, annoying flirting, which still problematic if that attention is unwelcome.
The reality of street harassment is far worse than what most men think or believe. In cities large and small, women contend with comments that range from mildly offensive to disgusting. Beyond being verbally harassed, many women are followed and some women are even forced to deal with the same harasser on a daily basis. For some women, this “harmless” harassment leads to assault.
But I realized, as Dina was telling me her story, that I have never actually been witness to the kind of street harassment my women friends tell me about. If a woman is walking down the street with me, other men generally won’t engage in any kind of harassing behavior towards her because street harassment, like all forms of harassment, is about attacking the vulnerable.
I will never know what it feels like for a woman to walk down the street alone. How am I to fully relate to the pain, fear, and humiliation of street harassment when I have never witnessed its full form and lack the the personal experience of being harassed on the street?
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Street harassment is one issue that plagues women in their everyday life, but they are also constantly barraged with discriminatory obstacles that we don’t even see as obstacles.
My passion and main concern in combating sexism has been about revealing hidden forms of sexism. My fight lies in overturning the idea that women and girls are subject to a certain biological destiny, and revealing what we think to be biological destiny as actually the problematic ways in which we condition girls and women in our society. This conditioning creates a lens through which women see the world and approach their life—a conditioning that itself is discriminatory.
Women not only deal with discriminatory behavior on a daily basis, but they are also loaded with the baggage of their social conditioning. Women face lives that we men will rarely see and never feel. Women are constantly reminded that they are different from us. And while we will never fully understand or feel what it’s like to deal with these issues, we often don’t make the effort to ask. When we do hear about realities like street harassment, we dismiss the situations as just the way things are. Sometimes, as so often happens with street harassment, we diminish the impact it has on women, “Boys will be boys.”
And therein lies the problem: if and when we think of sexism, it’s about class-action lawsuits, wage fairness—the big issues. We don’t seem to pay attention to the minutiae of daily life and the discrimination that exists on an everyday level.
As men, we will never know what it’s like to get to get as primped and ready for work as they do. If a woman shows up to work without makeup they look haggard and tired to us. A woman who doesn’t have makeup on for work is seen as unprofessional.
As men, we very rarely, know what it’s like to face unwelcome comments and jokes from a co-worker and go through a process of deciding, like so many women do, if it’s “worth it” to say or do anything.
We don’t know what it feels like to ask our friends if our arms look fat or to hear comments like “just another ten pounds and you’ll be perfect.” We don’t know what it feels like, because we don’t have to buy Spanx, we don’t have to conform, and we don’t have to combat unhealthy body images coming at us from multiple directions.
We don’t know what it’s like to deal with the burden of birth control. We don’t try to understand what it feels like to remember take a pill every day, to deal with the insurance and associated costs, to confront yearly invasive exams, and to live with possible physical side effects. We don’t seem to realize that birth control is not just an issue for women deal with; it’s an issue that we should also take responsibility for.
We don’t know what it’s like to have our intuition dismissed, especially when we sense danger and feel unsafe. How would we know?
This is why the sexism we have to combat in this country is the kind we don’t even notice. It’s the sexism that we wave off as, “That’s the way things are.” It’s the kind of sexism we haven’t even started to address in our society at large. And because we refuse to dig deeper to learn about the everyday struggles of women, we persist with behavior that simultaneously hurts women and drives the issue of gender discrimination deeper into a hidden underworld.
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My friend Mike gets very frustrated with my writing about women because he doesn’t see a need for it. He sees the way men and women relate to each other in the world as a competition, instead of as an opportunity for us to help and defend each other.
Just the other day, he asked me, “Why don’t you defend men?”
Without the support and care of women, without their consideration of our aspirations and how we feel, we wouldn’t be who we are. Our daughters, wives, co-workers, mothers, sisters, girlfriends, need to understand that a day in their life doesn’t have to be lived alone.
Having consciousness about the daily struggles of women is something that I am still learning how to do. Like so many men, I have been conditioned by our society to think that women are here to support my needs, instead of learning that we are here to support each other.
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Last weekend, I had an experience that reminded me to think about the struggles of women. After leaving a dinner meeting, I walked to a bank of elevators that led to the parking structure where my car was parked. When the elevator doors opened, I was greeted by a woman who was headed to the same parking garage. Given the situation—it was late at night with no one around—I told her, “I’ll take the next one.”
I’m not a saint. I still have so much to learn. But at that moment, I, as a man, made the conscious decision to calculate how riding elevator late at night with a strange man would make this woman feel. And by putting myself in her shoes (as much as I could), I adjusted my behavior accordingly.
This woman knew nothing about my intentions and nothing about me. Did I want her to spend the next thirty seconds wondering what was going to happen to her at 11pm at night? Nope. I wonder if she would have asked me to take the next elevator. I know she has probably been conditioned to think, like so many women, that asking a man to take the next elevator would be rude and presumptuous.
That night, I did what most women do for men on an everyday basis: I considered her needs. I thought about how the situation would make her feel—not because I wanted to avoid a reaction, but because I wanted to support her. It’s just not something men do as easily for women.
Hopefully, my decision was a respite for her. But I know it was a brief one.
Because the next morning, she’ll have to start the process all over again: living in a country— and a world—that may respect her on the surface, but finds a way, every minute, every hour, to make her feel like she’s different from me.
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Yashar will be soon releasing his first short e-book, entitled, A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not Crazy — How We Teach Men That Women Are Crazy and How We Convince Women To Ignore Their Instincts. If you are interested and want to be notified when the book is released, please click here to sign-up.
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This post originally appeared on The Current Conscience.
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photo: queereaster / flickr
About Yashar Ali
“Like so many men, I have been conditioned by our society to think that women are here to support my needs, instead of learning that we are here to support each other.”
What the. . . No offense, but who the heck raised you? Actually, I do know of non-US cultures where that is the case, so that may not be surprising. But, that is not a prevalent view in the urban-suburban American culture. However, some foreign cultures do hold such views.
First, on your picture, it may be hyperbolic, but if not – I have never cross-dressed and won’t ever but I have been married to my one and only wife for nearly 20 years, have 2 daughters and 4 sisters. All of whom I am close to. Not to mention hundreds of other women, with whom I have discussed their deepest concerns. Safety is certainly a concern, so I appreciate your mention of that.
However, I can tell you that catcalling is low on the list of issues for most women, although feminists love to talk about it.
If you want to help women via men, it should be more about how we treat them in personal relationships. Understanding how they feel is a good part of that. But, they don’t really want us all up in some of their things. They actually prefer some of that to be their personal secrets, their female mysteries (grooming and makeup and all that).
But helping men (and women) navigate their personal relationships in selfless ways (putting your mate’s interests/needs/desires/concerns ahead of your own) so that the relationship can be successful, secure, fulfilling, and supportive long term matters far, far, far (add a few more far’s) more than some guy on the street catcalling.
“Because the next morning, she’ll have to start the process all over again: living in a country— and a world—that may respect her on the surface, but finds a way, every minute, every hour, to make her feel like she’s different from me.”
News flash: She is different from you. Appreciate those differences. The differences are a big part of the beauty of life.
Your example of the woman on the elevator is just crazy. And incredibly insulting to both sexes.
Wouldn’t a better lesson be to ride the elevator and engage in harmless small talk? To show her you aren’t one of the bad guys? But instead, you perpetuate the myth that all men are rapists and a danger to women by not taking the elevator, for no reason at all. I don’t think you were being chivalrous or thoughtful. I think you played right into the dangerous stereotypes you’re railing against.
Also, some men do consider birth control. Obviously we don’t take pills due to biological impossibilities, but responsible men are concerned with condoms and safe sex in general. And I know a lot of guys who have to look good for work. Three piece suits, ties, the right shoes, make the hair look right, etc. Looking good at the office is not something only women have to deal with.
I think your “defense” of women is pretty insulting and patronizing, and I simply fail to understand the premise for this entire piece, other than to cast yourself as some sort of hero to the female population.
Like the vast majority of articles on this website, it tries to out-feminism the feminist websites. The simple fact of the matter is that maybe 1 in 30 articles actually addresses problems for men. Instead, the bulk of the content addresses “problems” that are the fault of men, that make women victims, and things that we have to change. There is never any discussion of actual problems from which men suffer. Injustices from which men suffer. No, there is only discussion of how men are at fault for X, Y, and Z and how women are our victims and how we are the problem and need to fix ourselves and that’s it.
I largely agree with both you and DF. So, why not contribute an article with some balanced content that doesn’t constantly belittle and demean men? The one way zero sum nature of the articles from the male feminist contributors IMO offers male readers of GMP no value. They only insult and belittle men and boys.
Women know that most men aren’t rapists. The problem is that at 11:00 at night with no one else around, a stranger is a stranger. It can be a scary situation for a woman.
You know that men are the primary victims of violence in our society, right? Men are between 3 and 5 times as likely as women to be murdered, depending on race and age. Furthermore, when women are mudered, it is most often by someone they know. When a man is killed, it is most often by someone they do not know.
Yet we are told that it is scary for a woman, who is already at a reduced chance of being killed, to be approached by a stranger, who is statistically unlikely to kill her, at night, as though men have no idea what is is to be scared about.
Give me a break.
Just because the statistics don’t support it doesn’t make that situation any less uncomfortable for a woman. You are more likely to die in a car crash than in a jet crash, yet most people are scared to fly. I’d feel vulnerable in that elevator too, even though I wish I wouldn’t.
Men on men violence is common, we should look at the causes, for example: drug trafficking, shootings, gangs, bar brawling,rioting, street racing, drink and drive, bullying etc. of course the statistics is going to show men are bigger victims of violence than women – but virtue of these statistics, they also point out the fact that MEN ARE MORE VIOLENT THAN WOMEN.
When there is violence against women, the victims are truer victims because females are not (usually) known to instigate or participant in stupidity as their male counterparts have shown consistently. Male violence/victims more often than not bring about their own demise. Everybody knows you shouldn’t do drugs, don’t get involved in gangs, don’t fight-shoot, don’t street race…don’t drink and drive etc. DON’T BE STUPID.
Women victims of violence and women in general should acquire more attention and support because they’re the more sensible ones in society and more vulnerable than men.
“Women victims of violence and women in general should acquire more attention and support because they’re the more sensible ones in society and more vulnerable than men.”
This has got to be the worst comment I’ve seen in quite some time. Male violence should actually have the highest level of support and attention in order to reduce it. Males are more violent in criminal activity (though they also probably simply also are the working males for a family with women at home raising children in some cases, criminal careers are still careers). To reduce male violence would reduce overall violence, if men are the perps in many cases then this needs to be addressed and we must find out why, what is making them commit such high levels of violence?
I truly believe both genders should be focused on and BOTH need to be seen as victim AND perp. We have a lot of males and females suffering from female perps in domestic violence, we have a lot of males and females suffering from male perps, everyone is being hurt. Focusing on one gender when there is no awareness for the other simply allows that gender’s issues to go unchecked and rise out of control.
“Everybody knows you shouldn’t do drugs, don’t get involved in gangs, don’t fight-shoot, don’t street race…don’t drink and drive etc. DON’T BE STUPID. ”
Addiction is a real fuck of a problem but it isn’t this simple. Gangs also are a big problem, and we need employment opportunities for those people so they don’t need to be in a gang to survive. The fact they know they’re bad and still join up is a sign we’re failing as a society to tackle big issues like poverty, addiction, education, employment. Street racing happens usually because of an interest for motor vehicles, a thirst for adrenaline and no safe/legal alternatives for many areas. Where I live you can’t get to a racetrack in under 5 hours, although we have probably 500k+ people in a 200km2 area. Bar brawling is a sign of bad culture towards drinking, in Australia binge drinking is quite high and Fri/Sat night at the hospitals are quite bad.
We have statistics now proving women are as aggressive and/or violent in relationships as men, so the males are more violent gap is starting to shrink quite a bit. Humans are aggressive at times, some are quite violent, there are so many issues affecting violence that there is no simple approach. We need to address things like abuse in childhood, bullying in schools, drug abuse, cultural expectations (men are taught to be aggressive).
No group should be ignored and no group should be prioritized, doing so only leaves unheard victims who suffer in silence. Most of the violent men in my family were abused as children, their fathers were abused by their fathers going on n on for centuries. The women can also be quite violent too, although in my family the majority of stories I’ve heard are male. It could be that female abuse is rising and male abuse is dropping and the stats might suggest this, or it could be more of society simply joining in on bad behaviour…
Is there a cure for sheer wanton stupidity?
We need more money thrown into ad campaigns to tell people not to be stupid – specially love the “don’t drink and drive” ones. Now we have the “anti-bullying” thrown into the pot too…the list keeps on growing bigger and bigger. Stupidity is ubiquitous.
People are lacking morals and common sense these days; that’s where society’s problems lie. Children know what is right and wrong more so than some adults. Once children reach adulthood, it seems morals and self-control no longer applies in their world.
A billboard near my house informs us that “Depression is the major cause of suicide.” Thanks. I kinda had that impression already….
DaddyFiles, what if you looked like a thug trying to make small chit chat? Do you think she would care for your small talk at 2am in the morning? OOPS, perpetuating a myth that only bad guys look like thugs…oh no. A talkative and well dressed man can’t possibly be a thug or have bad intentions?
As a woman I would have peace of mind if a man offered to take the next elevator. ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that! There are all sorts of crazies out there; until there is zero tolerance and no more females being assaulted or murdered, women are not safe in any society. SAFETY FIRST!
Just the other day, he asked me, “Why don’t you defend men?”
And that’s all we get right there. The good ole GMP, out-manblaming the feminist websites since 2009. This website is comparable to a website about the struggles of being African American that constantly blames them as the source of slavery and racism.
“Many studies indicate that almost 100 percent of women will face some sort of street harassment at one point in their lives.”
This is the kind of statement made by those who know little to nothing about statistical analysis. 100% of a sample restricted to major cities does NOT correlate to 100% of the general population. That’s why polling is not restricted to the phone numbers of NYC, Chicago, and LA. They also include numbers in the “Springfield’s” of America. If you think that cat-calling is happening on the streets of small-town America, where everyone know everyone else, then you have never lived there.
Also, why include third world countries in this discussion? American men are not responsible for the behaviors of Chinese, Indian, or Iranian men as we cannot control or change their culture. For that matter, American men and women have no idea what the daily lives are like for people who live in these cultures.
If the Good Men Project is going to continue with the Blame Men Project mantra of late, can you at least do it with articles containing relevant, significant, and intelligent content and move beyond the anecdotal and over-exaggerated nonsense that has become all too frequent on this site?
Exactly.
I think it would be very hard to find an American woman who has never had a strange man harass her in some way. She would have had to live a life where she never left a small town.
Robert Picton, a serial killer from Canada, bragged and confessed to murdering 49 women. He is as white as white can be.
Great article! I really love your ideas, idealism and quite frankly your action. It is very validating in a non-coddling sort of way. I appreciate that.
And if the men you needed to “defend” are they type that have made certain types of comments on this article, well, you couldn’t really huh?
If it weren’t for women there wouldn’t be a need for a “Good Men Project” because the very fact that there is a distinction between Good and Bad men is the direct result of how women perceive such men and how such men have gained the distinction of Good or Bad based on their treatment and interaction with mainly women. In addition, the men that WANT to be perceived by women and subsequently the world, as Good Men, know that there would be no such aspiration if the quality of their lives, the substance of their thoughts and emotions, the weight of their actions were not unequivocally tied to how it affects women, in their lives and the world at large. Express your opinion, counter his ideas, yet no need to bash this site or his writing for not meeting your ideals of what it should be. If it were up to you to decide what it should be, then you would have created it (a la Mark Zuckerberg).
“…since we all came from a woman
Got our name from a woman and our game from a woman
I wonder why we take from our women
Why we rape our women, do we hate our women?
I think it’s time to kill for our women
Time to heal our women, be real to our women
And if we don’t we’ll have a race of babies
That will hate the ladies, that make the babies
And since a man can’t make one…” ~ Tupac Shakur
Women declaring what makes a good and a bad man: Sassy’s world order.
Men declaring what makes a good and a bad woman: oppressive sexism.
Sassy, hate to break it to you, but I don’t care what you think of me. My self-image and how I view my gender is not dependent on an evaluation from you or from your gender. Its pretty arrogant to think that you have such power.
As far as this site goes, it is supposed to be a place for men and about men who are working, striving, struggling, debating, and thinking about what it means to be a good man in our changing culture. Your criticisms are about as relevant as mine would be if I jumped on stage during the Vagina Monologues.
Sassy: Are you freaking kidding me?? You write:
“If it weren’t for women there wouldn’t be a need for a “Good Men Project” because the very fact that there is a distinction between Good and Bad men is the direct result of how women perceive such men and how such men have gained the distinction of Good or Bad based on their treatment and interaction with mainly women.”
So basically you’re saying that women decide which men are good? And the only reason to be good is because of women? Thank you for displaying exactly the kind of hyper-feminist, radical, illogical mindset that has seemingly taken over this site as of late.
I have news for you, women are not the arbiters of good and bad. Women do not solely determine what is right and wrong when it comes to men. The Good Men Project is here not because of women, but because of men. And this is not a site to turn bad men into good men. It’s a site to discuss masculinity and how it relates to the world. But you don’t see it that way. You see it as a place to “fix” men. And by “fix” you clearly seek to ridicule all those who don’t agree with you.
I don’t need you to tell me if I’m a good man, anymore than I would presume to tell you how to be a good woman. That having been said, if your comments here are any indication of the kind of person you are, I’d spend more time worrying about yourself than men.
I wouldn’t presume to tell you how to be a good man or otherwise. You have validated what I was trying to express in your own words:
“It’s a site to discuss masculinity and how it relates to the world.”
Isn’t part of the world female? A large part? And don’t you relate to that part? Of course you do because if you didn’t “relate” in any way to the female population your username wouldn’t make sense, unless you have become a father of a child that was not born of a woman. ????
Nevertheless, in some cultures there is no use of the adjectives “good” or “bad” when it comes to roles, men, women, husband or wife, such as the Hmong in Mongolia, they simply just are a man, woman, husband or wife based on their participation in the expectations of what those things are.
This particular western society places labels on the success or failure of anything or person, and since we are talking about men, I’ll say the success or failure of a man in terms of Good or Bad based on their “… masculinity and how it relates to the world,” of which a large part is female.
And to answer your question, No that is not what I was saying. No way you could misconstrue what I did say as anything you summarized. And thank you for the news that you enlightened me upon.
Simply put people: Would you define a good man as one who treats his mother badly? His wife badly? His children badly? Women he works with badly? Strangers who are women badly? Etc, Etc. Yes? No?
Please feel free to continue this discussion without me. I’ve got to go finish deciding which men are good and which are bad. Of course you 2 are in the Good pile. K, thanks. Bye.
“a distinction between Good and Bad men is the direct result of how women perceive such men and how such men have gained the distinction of Good or Bad based on their treatment and interaction with mainly women.”
- Right…how could that statement every be thought to mean that women dictate what is a good or a bad man? Thanks for validating DF’s criticism of your illogical mindset. K, thanks. Bye.
“Simply put people: Would you define a good man as one who treats his mother badly? His wife badly? His children badly? Women he works with badly? Strangers who are women badly? Etc, Etc. Yes? No? ”
Why do you exclude how men treat other men and children? A symptom of feminism is the concept that the way men are treated is irrelevant; only women matter – precisely as your line of reasoning/questions indicates.
Sassy: That is EXACTLY what you were saying. You wrote: “the very fact that there is a distinction between Good and Bad men is the direct result of how women perceive such men.” These are your words. Maybe you made a mistake and now you want to take it back? If so, fine. But make no mistake, you clearly stated that the way women perceive men is responsible for whether they’re good or bad. And while that’s true in part, there is MUCH more than that regarding what it means to be a good man.
And lastly, your credibility went out the window when you cited Tupac in terms of treating women well. The same guy who was arrested in 1993 for sexually abusing a 19-year-old woman. You might want to pick your inspirational quotes a little more carefully next time.
As much as I agree with you, she’s spot-on about this “project”
That I cannot exactly imagine and so fully understand the life of someone other than me is a trivial statement. That I cannot imagine and fully understand the life of Northern Eskimo people is another trivial statement. For someone standing next to me, the difference usually boils down to how much sympathy and/or empathy I can muster. I can easily draw on analogies to my own life, to sympathize, and if the experiences are close enough, I can easily empathize as well. I think most men understand the trials and tribulations I may go through and I also think I understand theirs to a good degree. Anyone who has ever been singled out, and not in a good way, understands it all too well. I don’t think there is a real need to continue on discussing this visibility/appreciation concern much further. We seem to be forever stuck in this concern, this perpetual consciousness raising of concerns, as if that is the end goal.
The question of why we cannot empathize more than we already do is not a gendered thing.
- Men DO know what it’s like to face unwelcome comments and jokes,
based on our sexuality and manhood.
No matter what your response is, you’ll be seen in a negative light by someoone.
- Men do go through instances of conforming, i don’t understand how you could say otherwise.
- I’d laugh if a woman asked me to take the next elevator.
I’m not going to put someone elses needs before my own, i’m not responsible for their insecurities.
I don’t care about your average cat call, to be honest. It happens to all women at some point, and how I react (whether it’s with smile, a ‘fuck you’, a rude hand gesture, or just ignoring the guy) mostly has to do with my mood and how tired I am. I don’t see what the guy could possibly get out of it other than the knowledge that they’ve humiliated me, which is why I don’t let myself get humiliated. There’s a difference between your boring old street calls and actual harassment, though.
I’ve been been followed home after a bus stop, proposed marriage by a weird and creepy stranger, been locked in a convenience store by a drugged up clerk, had pictures taken directly of me at the beach without my consent, had my ass grabbed out of nowhere, had penises aggressively flashed to me, and been stopped on the street and on trains when I had places to be or things to do–then called a bitch/dyke/whore when I didn’t respond kindly. None of those are exaggerations. I could probably think of more situations, and that doesn’t include ones that deal with people I know and like making rape jokes or offensive comments about other women in my company. I’m not going to let my experiences affect the rest of my life, but they weren’t too pleasant, either. These aren’t imaginary situations made up by random feminists, though. It doesn’t hurt men to take a look at them and to at least recognize that they happen.
This has got to be one of the most opportunistic & narcissistic displays of White Knight Grandstanding I have ever read. Your fake prostrations nobility reeks of a cash grab and speaking fees.
The sick part is that you don’t even have the common decency to flagellate yourself. No sir you throw Men under the bus for a fast buck and probably some teary eyed sympathy sex….
….John Mayer could see through your B.S….
“Like so many men, I have been conditioned by our society to think that women are here to support my needs, instead of learning that we are here to support each other.”
Um. I was raised to believe that my sole purpose in life was to support a wife and children, and to carry on the family name. I was expected to hold doors, stand when there was a scarcity of seating, mow lawns, drive cars, and generally in all things put “ladies first.” When, at age 17, my parents found out I was gay, they said they were having another son and I went to live somewhere else.
My parents were pretty average working class people. What culture were YOU raised in?
Also, I don’t know how you back this up with anything other than anecdotal evidence: “As men, we very rarely, know what it’s like to face unwelcome comments and jokes from a co-worker and go through a process of deciding, like so many women do, if it’s “worth it” to say or do anything.” I, myself, am constantly having to point out to a girl in my office that she’s making a sexist joke, or that her insistence upon a particular mold for the male body to fit is sexist.
That’s another thing–since WHEN are men not conditioned by contemporary society to have an unhealthy body image?
I think men are conditioned to financially and physically support their wives and familes. I think women are conditioned to emotionally support their husbands and families. I don’t think the article is saying that men aren’t conditioned to do things either. He’s just trying to say that more emotional support from men to women isn’t a bad thing. Unless you really believe it is. I don’t see why the ideal of emotional support of men toward women, not something our society really conditions, is a bad thing.
“I don’t see why the ideal of emotional support of men toward women, not something our society really conditions, is a bad thing.”
Except that’s not what he said. He is saying that most men are selfish pigs, as is often the implication in these articles. Once again, it’s the “man selfish pig, woman innocent victim of selfish pig” message.
Erin,
The quotation I pulled says “Like so many men, I have been conditioned by our society to think that women are here to support my needs, instead of learning that we are here to support each other.” It does not say that men should support women. It says men think women are here to support them–which is totally false and is in fact the OPPOSITE of the cultural norm that I have been exposed to.
Of course, he says nothing of the idea that women should be supportive and encouraging toward men, just as men should be toward women. On the contrary, he almost says that women support men more than they should have to. But I don’t know the last time I heard a woman say positive things about males, generally.
I really appreciate your efforts to see sexual harassment from a woman’s point of view. In my experience, this is an issue that most men don’t understand because MOST men are good and they don’t do this stuff. When women start talking about it with their male friends, the guys find it hard to believe. I think some of the comments reflect that perspective.
The reason women see it so differently is that if you’re young and not hidden away somewhere, it happens to you. The guys who do this stuff get around. They do it again and again. And like Aya says, sometimes these guys are scary and get mad at you if you aren’t interested.
Talking about this issue can be a way to defend men. If we could stop the creeps, the rest of you guys would all be better off.
Having said all that, I think men also experience some of the other things you mentioned. Men who aren’t white/gorgeous/rich are likely to have heard jokes about their group at times. Men do feel pressure to look good and hating overweight people extends to men (look at Christie). Men who are responsible and smart do get involved in birth control.
This article seems to fall into a typical feminist trap: privilege is defined as existing in one direction only.
Women often receive unwanted, even harassing, attention from men.
Yet simultaneously, men are told that if they want a relationship, they have to make the first move.
In this system there is clear privilege on both sides. On the one side, men get to go through life without knowing the pain of street harassment. On the other, women get to go through life without truly knowing what widespread romantic rejection feels like (because in the system where men make the first move, women make the decision to accept or reject). Proof of this is pretty clear: there seems to be no counterpart (or at least, no counterpart of comparable size) to the Nice Guy TM that feminists love to complain about: the man who is unsuccessful romantically and has come to blame women for his rejection (often depicted as doing so from his mom’s basement).
When this is brought up, women often respond with a chorus of “Oh but I do make the first move and so do my friends!” This would be fine, accept that the counterpart, a chorus of “I do not street harass, and neither do my friends,” is rejected out of hand because it is contrary to the majority female experience, much like the woman-who-hits-on-guys is still contrary to the majority male experience.
As someone who has had friends who could probably be described as “Nice Guys TM,” I can say with certainty that they often would claim to wish to trade the one privilege for the other: a willingness to put up with street harassment in exchange for the chance to be hit on by women.
Yet feminism wants to ignore this possibility. When women have a privilege, it cannot possibly be important. After all, privilege must run from men to women, and not the other way around. Until mainstream feminism is willing to acknowledge reality, I honestly remain confused as to why I should listen to it.
Street harassment is pretty scary. I’m not sure guys would really be willing to put up with it for the chance to be hit on by women.
Remember, the harassment isn’t just walking by a bunch of guys who whistle. Sometimes it’s a drunk guy who’s not at all attractive and stronger than you making crude suggestions and all you can do is move away from him quickly.
Also, being hit on isn’t as great as it sounds. Most of the time, it’s guys you aren’t attracted to. When you’re young, a lot of the guys are much older than you. An older woman who looked like them wouldn’t have the nerve to make a pass at younger guys because she’d have already gotten the message that she is no longer hot and should cut her hair and cover her body already.
I don’t think it’s fair to blame feminists for the American dating system. Feminism promoted the idea that women should be able to ask guys out. The books and movies out there telling women to hold back and make the guy do the work aren’t being written by feminists.
I really wish we could move beyond feminist bashing. Some issues should be things men and women of good faith can just agree on. Women shouldn’t have to live with being harassed. It’s an experience men don’t usually have. It’s clearly an area where our different experiences make it hard for us to understand each other. Most men don’t do it, so why is it so hard to talk about how it can hurt women?
When I was in high school, the general wisdom was that its okay to do anything possible to get the girls to notice you. I can’t say that men are taught out of that attitude but for me and a lot of other men, We need to know that we are better then we were in high school. We need to know that We are not a criminals.
We haven’t defined a concise notion of Mutually Beneficial Sexual Morality. We talk past each other, we hurl accusations of gender Privilege, we refuse to see the problems of the opposite sex. We shame sexual proficiency we shame sexual incompetence.
This article is a call to hang your head in shame because you are either complacent or ignorant to the problems of women. I can’t walk on eggshells for something I am not part of.
Black Iris, your comment is why I simply do not trust feminists: there is too much hypocrisy.
I stated, upfront, that I have a problem with feminists believing privilege only runs one-way. They believe that men need to empathize with women, but they never try to empathize with men.
Your comment has thus far only served to prove my point. I state that the American dating system is bad for men and women, and your primary response is “Yeah, but it’s REALLY bad for women,” This demonstrates an unwillingness to consider the experiences of others, exactly the behavior that feminists often accuse men of exihibiting.
As for your other point, I could easily turn it around: most men don’t participate in street harassment, so why is it so important to talk about? I am supposed to take for granted the idea that street harassment is a huge problem that I am unable to observe, yet when I suggest to feminists that men may have problems they are unable to observe, I’m ignored.
I’m sorry, but until feminists end the hypocrisy I’m done listening.
Nice article. Yeah, you’re right. Most men don’t put themselves in the shoes of women. I’m not really sure why. Maybe a good article would be to ask men why they don’t. Aren’t they even curious? Imagine all the movies I couldn’t watch if I just couldn’t put myself in the shoes of a man and contemplate that characters dilemma as if it were my own. That’s like 90% of all movies and TV shows too. Weird.
You’re equating TV and movies to knowledge of a man’s life experiences? Isn’t that like saying I watched “Sex in the City” so I know all about what women think and feel?
According to what data does the writer and do you conclude that,. “Most men don’t put themselves in the shoes of women?” Anybody can make a general statement with no facts.
Here’s another: “Most women don’t put themselves in the shoes of men.” If your statement and his is fact, so is mine. I have just as much proof as you do.
In reality, men and women don’t need to put themselves in the shoes of the other. Just be a decent human being rather than incessantly insult and demean males, as almost all feminist-writer articles (such as this one) do.
Did I hit a nerve Eric?
Valerie – yes, you did hit a nerve. i reacted to your comment because of it’s sexism and anti-male bias. I have low tolerance for discrimination no matter who the target is?
How on earth do you tolerate being on this site? Sane, sensible references to being a decent human being have no place on a politicized site like this.
I congratulate you, sincerely. It’s a shame because the hatred of masculinity that is so pervasive today should not be the dominant theme on a site that is supposedly about ‘good men’.
But it is.
And that is a reply to ERIC
A few of us swim against the tide. Someone’s got to be the adult in the room and teach against discrimination, even if the targets are males. It’s politically correct to bash and discriminate against boys and men. But IMO it’s still wrong.
so should I also take the next elevator when a really small guy is waiting?
If I’m waiting for an elevator and a guy who is the size of an NFL lineman approaches (outweighs me by 100 lbs). Should he wait for the next one?
Maybe people should all line up according to weight, do a genital check and sort it out. Of course, while all of you are doing that I’ll ride up the elevator with the little guy, the really big guy and women who don’t mind riding an elevator with a guy. That way we will get to our cars, get out of the garage and avoid the traffic before you sort out who gets dibs on the first lift.
Great point!
If a huge, hulking black man is waiting for that elevator does he have a responsibility to let me ride alone based on the assumption that I’ll be nervous he’ll attack me late at night? It’s the exact same principle. Yet the author fancies himself an enlightened, thoughtful feminist while my example would be considered racist. A total double standard.
He decided to take the next elevator so she wouldn’t feel uncomfortable riding in the elevator with him. I can understand the courtesy in that.
So, that also means she rode up to the next elevator stop alone, to a parking garage late at night, to whatever horrible men might be waiting to get on the elevator at the next stop. If he had ridden the elevator with her, she would be less likely to be accosted by another man. How could he abandon her to that fate, if he really cared about her security? He put her in needless danger, just to avoid some discomfort. If only he could have put himself in her shoes – if only he had realized what women have to put up with….
Women are good. Men are evil. Pathetic message.
Wow – I thought this might be a good site. I was taken in by the title (very shrewd)
But this is just an avalanche of hysterical political correctness and the trendy male self-hatred that is everywhere today.
Very frustrating and disappointing. There is so much of this weird, masochistic nonsense everywhere.
Oh well – back to web surfing.
“Without the support and care of women, without their consideration of our aspirations and how we feel, we wouldn’t be who we are. Our daughters, wives, co-workers, mothers, sisters, girlfriends, need to understand that a day in their life doesn’t have to be lived alone.”
Thank you for saying this. For appreciating what the women in your life do for you, giving them acknowledgement for that, and letting us know that we don’t have to live life alone. Because women don’t want to go through life alone and we deeply value the men in our lives that do make them better.
I don’t think suggesting that men relate to women on a different emotional level is a bad thing at all or is suggesting that men are evil as some have insisted in the comments. Usually society defines mascunlinity through a man’s ability to finacially support a family, not emotionally support one. Society doesn’t define masculinity through a man’s ability to be relationship oriented and for a man to be an emotional support system. But if we talk about how important it is for a man to do that, then perhaps we will see an important shift in how men and women relate.
And I know that I feel the most loved and appreciated when the men in my life strive to go to places that before men weren’t expected to go.
Pure speculation here, just my impression:
I think Yashar has positioned himself here to have a chance for a lot of sex with quasi-feminist young women. I remember this sensitive anti-misogyny political position as being moderately successful in my own college years. It can be just another form of saying what you think women want to hear, whether they really want to hear it or not. This sounds to me like a “least offensive to women” approach – some women may be slightly insulted by his writing, but if a lot of men find it insulting, he can use that to his advantage. Never underestimate the temptation of men to use versions of feminism in the pursuit of sex with women.
Again, maybe this is just based on autobiographical experience and I’m just projecting that onto someone who talks like I used to?
A bit of a leap to say he’s trying to get women to like him. That could just be an unintended consequence.
I came to a realization a few weeks ago about the some of the articles on this site, the ones that seem a bit odd or unbalanced in their views of men’s relationships with women. I would put this article in that category. Often in those cases, when I stop assuming that men are the primary audience for the article, the piece makes a whole lot more sense. For example, when I imagine a certain group of women as the audience for Hugo Schwyzer’s articles, those articles make much more sense to me in that light. I kept making the common mistake of thinking that the things I read are written for me to read, when in fact I may be eavesdropping on something intended for someone else.
I do agree that sometimes men use versions of feminism (or illusions of feminism) as part of their pursuit of nookie. There’s a bit of irony – feminism AS a pick-up technique. I am reminded of what I overheard many years ago at a college social: “Don’t worry, babe, I won’t exploit you. I’m a Marxist.” I don’t remember what her reaction was.
Anonymous Male, I think a number of men are capable of thought provoking discussion regarding any matter of subjects, their relationship with and treatment of women included in that. Inferring that the only reason a man promotes positive relationship and social views of women just to sleep with them is insulting to men more then anyone else. It basically infers that the only thing men are capable of being motivated by is sex. And any discussion that reinforces positive experiences with women is just window dressing to use and discard women for sexual pleasure. And that seems more closely aligned with stereotypes found in beer commericals about men, that if you sak me are rather unhealthy, then anything based on what men are about today.
Wellokaythen – your assertion that some articles are for another primary audience other then men seems a touch jaded and certainly something I disagere with. Man or woman, we are all here to improve our relationships with the opposite gender. It seems that GMP is very successful at approaching old discussed subjects with fresh eyes giving us all a chance to look at things from a different perspective. Which hands down beats publications like AskMen that’s articles range from “how to have a one night stand” and “how to oggle other women while i’m out with my girlfriend”.
Erin,
I don’t see where I was implying that men are only motivated by sex. I tried scrupulously to use “I” statements when talking about my perspective. I was noticing a tone and approach in an article that I interpreted a certain way. Some commenters go so far as to call this tone “pandering.” I think that’s vastly overstating it, and I think assigning motives to people gets us off track, but I do think it’s valid to present an interpretation of what I read, and that includes *possible* motivations.
Perhaps I should have said “if” it was his intention to get women to like him, this article is a really good one. I definitely made no mention of “discarding” women.
I was noticing out loud what I see as one pattern within some of the GMP articles. Articles here have to simplify complicated issues in the interest of brevity and stimulating discussion. What I have noticed is that there is one kind of simplification that sounds to me like the “least possibly offensive to women” strategy. I would put Hugo’s and Yashar’s articles in this category. Nothing inherently wrong with this strategy, except that it may go so far in dodging controversy that it triggers other controversy. Just as other forms of simplification, like “nothing men do is wrong because it’s all biology!” oversimply complex gender issues.
For example, I can’t help but notice in Hugo’s writing a sense of atonement in his approach. A sensitivity to the slightest chance that he could be accused of victim-blaming women in any way. That creates a particular tone that has certain tradeoffs.
Just as anyone might notice in my writing a tendency for trollishness or defensiveness about porn use. At least, I’m aware how my statements could come across that way.
Articles on blogs present a particular public image of the author. I’m not saying that creating a particular image is the main motive or only motive of any specific author, but it can hardly have no effect on the writing. If I put my real name on a web article, I would be very careful to make sure I said things that people liked and that made me look good, maybe even at the expense of being realistic or thorough. Maybe not everyone would, but I would. The issue of audience can be very complicated – an open letter to the US government printed in the New York Times is hardly just a letter to the US government. A letter to men from a man may be more than just a message to men.
Perhaps my language was not cautious or precise enough to get my point across.If so, I apologize. I definitely did not intend to make a sweeping statement about ALL men, either all men on this site or all billions of men everywhere. I hope my language was not as sweeping as “Man or woman, we are all here to….” I would HOPE we are all here to build good relationships, but I would not go so far as to presume it.
wellokaythen,
I agree with you. A lot of the articles on this website are not written for men. They’re written for women. I would include this article in that category. It’s kind of weird but true. Maybe it is being done because they’ve found that they have more female readers than male readers? I don’t know.
Jeni,
Written for women, seriously? the article is from a man’s perspective and his experiences with women. So you think his advice is directed to women? Would it make better sense if women waited to take the next elevator so men feel safer? If women catcalled on men, the guys would be flattered and get a hard-on – not so much with women if men did the catcalling, women would see it as plain creepy.
I cannot tell that he’s advising anyone. He’s talking about how he is so sensitive to women and how he’s on the front lines in combating sexism. He’s coming from his ego. That will not build much rapport towards men but will impress some women.
Sorry. I do see that a lot on this website. It doesn’t mean the articles aren’t good or worthy of printing. I am just perplexed as to why they are on this website.
Taylor,
There can be an article giving advice to men in such a way that the manner of advice is pleasing to women. I don’t think Jeni is saying that Yashar is advising women.
An example from the other side of things is the advice articles you find in Cosmopolitan. I am convinced that Cosmo is secretly written by men, in the interests of men, and its label of a women’s magazine is a flimsy disguise. Lots of advice for young women about how to please men and how to look good for men. Would anyone seriously think that the desire to please men has no role in all those Cosmo articles written by women, for women?
I think the GMP is much higher quality, on the whole, but sometimes I wonder if there’s not a little reverse-Cosmo going on here.
To Yashar Ali – No.
Well, this was comical, anecdotal and not relevant to many women or men.
If this is what women have to complain about then they have it pretty damn good.
You know, I read this article and just thought it was strange. The tone was weird and I don’t know…something felt off.
I think mutual empathy is a good thing. I also prefer to look at the men I come across day-to-day as human beings rather than predators. I think that when it comes to elevators late at night, body language says a lot about how fearful I would feel. Men know how to throw their size around, intimidate, and incite fear. They also know how to just be another human being tired from a long day. They also know how to use their body language to be friendly and honorable. Women can essentially do the same. I don’t think most men in most circumstances set out to intimidate or scare women. I don’t want to live in a world where men are inherently considered to be predators of women. It’s not fair and it doesn’t help anyone.
When it comes to emotional connection or support from men, the things the author does are not the things I want. I don’t want a man who coddles me in my fears. I want a man who lovingly challenges my fears and helps me tear them down, because, after all, most fears we have are not real. A man like that will free me from myself and from the dictates of the culture surrounding me. Freedom is what I want more than anything.
Jeni,
“most fears we have are not real”, yet everyday in this world – people are always astounded when their close neighbour, friend, family member or some stranger they may not know who lives in the neighbourhood, kills someone or commits some other crime, they can’t get over themselves. It can’t happen in their neighbourhood, it is a dream, it is a nightmare, this is not the real person they know – they all exclaim.
This article is for men, I can’t see where he is coddling you in fears – you are a woman???
Freedom is what we all strive for. But we can’t ignore the crazies in this world, most of them are locked up, but many more roam freely…some of the best crazies are sociopaths who behave as normal as you and I, but they are master manipulators.
Taylor,
I refuse to live my life in fear. This article is coddling women in their fears that men are, generally-speaking, forces they need to be protected from. I don’t buy that…and I am careful when I truly put myself in a potentially dangerous situation. I will not ride an elevator and fear that a man will join me in the elevator. Sorry.
I am not going to give that much time and energy worrying about the sociopaths. There are far more important things to worry about in my opinion.
I don’t see how this article is helpful to men. The author is wrapped up in his ego and that creates a feeling of separation for a lot of the men reading this. What he really wants is for some woman to stroke his ego and tell him how wonderful he is.
Any self-respecting sociopath wouldn’t use an elevator for an attack location; there is only one easy exit, the escape through the roof tile you see so often in movies is a lot harder than it looks – the damage alone from metal fibre cables on even gloved hands is appalling.. You have the problem of being interrupted, you have to carry all your tools with you and then there is disposal of the body. Seriously, if you’re afraid of being in a lift because of a sociopath you’re not putting enough thought into it.
Yes this was written tongue in cheek, no I am not my neighbourhood sociopath.