If you’ve been dating someone for three years, but you don’t want to tie the knot, what do you do?
Dear Sexes: My girlfriend and I have been together for three years and everyone is bugging us to get engaged. It’s not that she’s not “the one” for me, but I just don’t have any interest in changing things. My girlfriend acts like she’s cool with just living together, but she’s dropping hints lately. If I got offered an ultimatum, I’d walk rather than get married. Is that so wrong?
♦◊♦
She Said: Lesson #1 in the She Said Bible: Marriage does not solve any problems. Ever. Marriage doesn’t make you love someone more, or make them love you forever. Marriage is simply an agreement to create a family together. It can be helpful for the purposes of taxes, property, and your Baptist grandmother, but that’s about it. It is a valuable institution to some, and that’s important, but it will never solve any problems.
What I’m trying to say here is that you’re right, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Especially if you’re relatively young. Life is long, enjoy the moment, and know that there is NOTHING wrong with you for not rushing into marriage. When you’re ready for marriage, you’ll know it. And then it will be great.
PS Ladies—stop buying into our wedding-obsessed culture pressuring men into marrying you! You will only pay for that a few years down the line when you’re at home with a baby and he’s banging hookers against a wall in Union Station. Fact.
♦◊♦
He Said: A few things: Can you imagine being married to anybody? What do you see when you look into the crystal ball of your hypothetical future? Can you IMAGINE being married to your girlfriend (of three years) one day? And does that day look happy and promising, even if it’s distant and somewhat cloudy?
If you can’t imagine it (in a positive light), it’s time to move on. It’s OK if you personally don’t want to get engaged/married. But now that you’re in a committed (perhaps monogamous?), long-term relationship, you have your girlfriend to consider. It’s possible, but unlikely she has your same laissez-faire approach to marriage. More likely, she’s hoping you’ll change your views, and eventually tie the knot. If you honestly don’t foresee that happening for you, it’s time to man up, be honest, and break your girlfriend’s heart. Otherwise you’re just delaying the inevitable—you’re still going to break her heart, AND all the while you’re wasting more and more of each others time.
Remember, your girlfriend has this special thing called a clock—a biological clock. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock… P.S.—That’s not just your girlfriend’s biological ticking. It’s also the clock ticking on your youth (and good looks).
If you have a question for Eli and Josie, ask it here.
Originally appeared at SheSaidHeSaid.
—Photo Flickr/cameronnordholm / joeshlabotnik / neeta_lind
About She Said He Said
Vocalyze
im kind of surprised at the advice given by the she in this case.
Yeah, I thought that the “You will only pay for that a few years down the line when you’re at home with a baby and he’s banging hookers against a wall in Union Station. Fact.” was a little much. A woman should be able to ask a question and get an honest answer. There should be no need to “bug” someone. And men should be able to say “no, I don’t want to marry you” if that’s the truth. Asking someone to marry you doesn’t give them to the right to use a marriage they “didn’t want” to justify banging hookers in Union Station. Fact.
I am totally with the “he” advice. It is important to sit down and discuss what you both want for your future. Having the “marriage” talk is just as important as having the “children” talk. If one of you needs either of those things to feel fulfilled, and the other would rather stab their eye with a fork than get married and/or have kids, then you need to stop wasting each others’ time.
I’m with you, D.C. This talk should have happened WAY before the 3 year mark, but it didn’t…so better asap, before more potential damamge is done.
What I don’t like is the advice coming from ‘She’. She is esssentially saying that the woman in this case must settle, put her dreams (and possible family beliefs and religious convictions) on hold so she can stay with said dude. I suppose if he wanted kids and she didn’t she would have to give in and put her needs aside?
I’m not saying every couple has to get married or have kids, but these things in life are big, and it’s not fair that either should have to give up what they want. Better to figure it out and/or possibly separate.
And dude, next time…outline your needs as soon as you have the ‘relationship’ talk. Jeeze.
“And dude, next time…outline your needs as soon as you have the ‘relationship’ talk. Jeeze.”
It shouldn’t be on him to outline his needs wrt marriage, any more than it is hers. It’s whoever wants the status quo change that should bring it up.
“Marrying after a few years” or “Marrying in order to have kids” is not the ‘default’ position, the same way consent is not there by default in sex.
Good point. As soon as SHE’s the one talking about marriage (rather than everyone else ‘bugging them’), then he should explain to her that he’s happy with their relationship as-is.
If she’s not OK with that, it’s time for HER to move on. The letter-writer hasn’t been dishonest or misleading to anyone.
No Schala, you are right, it’s not only his responsibility, and if it sounded that way, my bad. I only directed it to him because he’s the one asking for advice. The onus is on both to outline what their needs are pretty early in the relationship so that everyone knows what they are (potentially) getting into.
This is what I don’t like about marriage. There is this assumption that if you don’t want to marry someone you don’t want to be with them, but that is not necessarily the case – like how in films if someone says no to a proposal they immediately break up. In reality there are many different ‘no’s. To name some of them: no, never; no, not yet; no, because I don’t believe in marriage and I love our relationship as it is; no, but I want to live with you and have children with you; and no, I can’t see a future with you. Not getting married doesn’t necessarily mean not being committed, or not wanting to have children.
He Said sort of touches on this, but then doesn’t give room for a discussion between the ‘no, because…’ and the ‘yes, because…’
Keisha Brown: This is why people feel sorry for ME when my partner tells people how long we have been together, when actually I am the one who generally argues against marriage.
I see that they live together…first mistake. it goes back to the old saying “why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free”
My question is for myself… I am 48, female, mother of 8 children (all born from my body) 2 exhusbands.
I have been dating a man for over a year. He is 55, never married, no children. (!!!) He is great with my kids (but not too great like weird) attends family parties (aka my grandkids’ birthday parties). He complains that he is alone everynight ~~ I always invite him over to my chaos…LOL.
Anyhoo my dilema is he wants us (just 5 kids still at home) to move in with him but I won’t unless we get married. (no ring yet…..)
Hi Cate8,
I’m going to send your question into our queue and we’ll answer it on our blog, if that’s alright with you.
Any other questions can be sent through the direct link, where you can even ask anonymously.
http://www.shesaidhesaid.me/ask
Why is living together a mistake for THAT couple, Cate? It apparently doesn’t work for you, but that hardly means it’s wrong for everyone–unless you have the mistaken notion that all relationships should proceed inevitably toward marriage, or else be canceled.
He’s right. If you are both not 100% convinced that you want to be married until death do you part, don’t do it. Too often, people have kids and THEN realize that they don’t want to be married anymore, and shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place.
Then, the kids end up having to shuttle back and forth, and only get each parent part time – if they’re fortunate enough to have both parents want time with them. (not criticizing people who are doing their best under that scenario but it’s so much better for the kids to not have to deal with that)
Better to stay single and childless if you’re not absolutely, positively certain. IMO.
If she wants to get married and you don’t? tell her. Tell her now that you are happy staying in a semi-committed state and you don’t plan on marrying her. Be blunt about it. She should decide if she wants to deal with that or not. If she wants marriage and family, she should move on and so should you. But you should be gut level honest about it with her.
Does she cook for you on a regular basis? Do you manage all of your own money? If you called at 5pm on a weeknight and said something came up and you’ll be home late does she accept it and not complain? Do you still have sex with her at least 3 times per week? If you answered no to more than one of these questions don’t marry her.
I don’t cook for my boyfriend. He cooks for us both all the time. Unless we order take out food, or pizza, or go out (which is rarer). He’s more skilled, has more experience (he’s also older), and more interest in varying meals than me. I generally lack dexterity and am clueless about most recipes beyond the basics. So it works out fine. I do the dishes. He does laundry, I fold it.
Not sure why sex “at least 3 times a week” is a requirement. Some people have lower libidos, or different desires. There’s also conflicting schedules and other things that could complicate that 3 times a week deal.
And you’re not married. Q.E.D.
I’m in a place where marrying is not THE expectation.
And I’ve also only been with my boyfriend for 2 and a half years. When we’ve passed the 10 years limit, we might consider it, mainly for the tax benefits.
So, silly rabbits… the fact of the matter is that you have only today…to be the person that you are today. “She says”… live crazy while young… “He Says”…. imagine yourself in three years…. She makes a valid point, getting married too young, in many cases, results in disaster… especially if there are kids involved. Marriage is a financial agreement, and although love is a bonus, it is not a necessity… much better to marry someone that you smolder with than some one you flame with… the flame will burn out… Less metaphorically, marry your friend, your best friend… and KNOW… that EVERY singe day you will wake up a different person than the night before. Just the experiences that you went through, however mundane, on Monday, will shape the type of person you will become on Tuesday. This is usually subtle, but, when something earth shattering happens, you need to know the person that you married is going to stick around… let’s say you wake up with an arm missing… your best friend, someone that you have grown with, will not leave you. A superficial partner will… if you don’t fit the mold, they will hit the road. “He Said” is a bit clueless when he suggests that we can “imagine” what tomorrow will hold… it is an immature expectation, that the “Ideal” you create in your mind now, is going to be what you hold dear three years forward. It is a typical players line… it goes something like this, just after you had a great sex session… “I could spend the rest of my life, in this moment, with you”… what this means is… you were a super fuck, I wonder what I am going to do for lunch???? Most women eat this shit up because it is the theme of every romance genre from time beginning… I don’t want to give Eli too much shit, but the fact is that if you live your life in a “day dream ideal” of what tomorrow may hold… you are going to be sorely disappointed…. and so will your soon to be disillusioned wife, that will be banging someone in Central Station as you try to tell her how great things will be next year!
From the perspective of my 40′s, I have to say I disagree with the advice from “she.” If you don’t want to marry your girlfriend after 3 years, and you don’t hink you ever will, you are doing her no favors by keeping the relationship going. If marriage, family and children are important to her, she needs to move on and find a man who really loves her, not just a dude who likes having a girlfriend around for sex and companionship. Not that there’s anything wrong with sex and companionship, but you know what I mean. Some guys are lazy, they are not totally “into” a woman but she’s “good enough” so they will let the relationship drag on for years and eventually the woman is hurt, angry and feels she has wasted years on a dead end relationship. If you think you love her, and want her to be happy, you owe it to her to say, “I care about you and everything, but marriage and family is not in our future. If that’s what you want, you need to find a different man.”
I remember reading an advice column (Dear Prudence?) where a guy said he had been with a girlfriend for 7 years but never wanted marriage or children. Finally she got frustrated with him and broke up. He then met the love of his life, got married and decided he did want kids after all. When his ex-girlfriend found out his wife was pregnant, she called him up in a rage. In other words, it’s possible that if a man doesn’t want marriage or children, it’s not because he really doesn’t want those things someday, he just doesn’t want the,pm with this particular woman, as harsh at that is. So, let her move on. And let this be a lesson to women not to stay with a guy who want make a long term commitment IF that’s what you think you really want. Don’t stick around thinking he’ll change — he probably won’t.
This is the absolute truth.
This is spot on. I’m very surprised as well by the “She” advice.
The letter writer didn’t say how old he is or how old his girlfriend is. I think if they’re very young they may not be wasting each other’s time. Maybe neither one of them is really ready for marriage yet, even if they might be someday, and that’s OK. Maybe neither of them really know what they want yet and are just enjoying each other’s company meanwhile.
But if his mind is already made up that either he’s not going to get married ever, or he’s not going to marry this particular woman, he needs to let her know, and let her decide whether she wants to stay with him under those conditions or not. And if you’re both over 25 or so you should do this immediately. If she wants a family, she needs time to find a man who wants to have children with her while she’s still of childbearing age, and she doesn’t want to be in a position of having to marry the first guy who will have her because time is running out. Give her a chance to have the life she wants, if that’s what she wants and you don’t.
She’s just as much part of the picture as he is. If she wants to know if he is interested in marriage or not, she can easily broach the subject. She may be perfectly content to leave things as they are. If not, they can simply have an adult conversation.
Some women will hang on to a relationship for a long time, assuming that the man will wake up one morning and want marriage and a family. She may not ask him about it directly, because she doesn’t want to scare him off. A lot of relationship books for women advise against asking questions like “where is this going?” etc. Obviously you are right, women have a responsibility to have the conversation if that’s what they are looking for. Absolutely true. In fact, I think if a woman is looking for marriage and kids, she’s probably better off telling guys that early on. (Not immediately, but don’t wait 2-3 years!) But I’m also of the mind that men should also be very upfront about NOT wanting marriage and not seeing it in the future with that woman or any woman. I have just seen too many friends waste years of their lives lying to themselves about relationships with no future. And, to be honest, I am guilty of that myself.
You can have kids, and stay with someone for decades, without marrying.
What a novel concept right?
Been that way for 30 years here. 67% of kids born outside marriage. No problem with it, because that’s normal. And it doesn’t mean more promiscuous stuff, either.
Schala,
Wondering why you chose to not get married? Did you plan to stay together for 30 years, or did it just work out that way? I mean, if a couple plans to raise children, and be together for life, what reason is there to not get married? On the other hand, if they want the flexibility of choosing to leave with no legal strings attached, not getting married makes more sense.
IMO (not that you asked), the permanence of the union is only critical if there are chlidren involved. If so, the kids knowing that their parents absolutely intend to be together for life, provides a level of security and stability, which has benefits.
You misunderstood.
Here, in Quebec province, it’s been 30 years that people don’t marry by default, that people stay together in LTRs, have kids, without marrying.
I don’t understand how you can be in an exclusive relationship with someone for years and not know basic things about them, such as what their plans are for the next few years. That’s pretty basic as far as I’m concerned. What the heck do people talk about and still not know some of the most basic things about their ?
To me, it’s the same with proposals. Why the suspense? If the woman (or man) wants one so that s/he can tell his/her friends about it later, fine. But, it really should be no more than a romantic formality, since you should (IMO) know the person well enough to know that the two of you want to be married to each other, and when you are ready to do so (or will be ready in a year or so).
What ever happened to basic adult communication?
Jill said: “I think if a woman is looking for marriage and kids, she’s probably better off telling guys that early on….”
She might also want to examine exactly WHY she wants marriage and kids so much; could be she’s been conditioned and brainwashed in those expectations.
“But I’m also of the mind that men should also be very upfront about NOT wanting marriage and not seeing it in the future with that woman or any woman. I have just seen too many friends waste years of their lives lying to themselves about relationships with no future.”
I don’t agree that a comfortable romantic partnership without end is “no future.” It works for plenty of people. Again, you might want to look at that whole conditioned-expectations thing and ask yourself WHY it’s so important for your relationship to result in marriage and kids. Is that your true, personal ideal of fulfillment, or is it simply what you’ve always assumed and expected?
Because I can tell you, a lot of men these days are asking those same questions and getting some interesting answers. MGTOW.
I’m really looking forward to the day when the current concept of marriage is seen as archaic. Well done, She.
ALSO. Diamond engagement rings are a tradition that is maybe 50 or 60 years old and was put in place by the diamond industry. Don’t fall for it.
I agree about diamond engagement rings, but not about marriage.
Yeah, the whole wedding ring concept is an unnecessary expense. She wanted one, so I bought them for her, but won’t wear a ring myself.
JS won’t get an argument from me, I married my husband in a pair of jeans after we were together for years and had two kids together. We did it for legal and tax reasons. We don’t even wear rings.
Also, I’m addressing the ultimatum that our questioner was asking about, not the conversations about marriage. Talk about marriage, talk about it a ton if you want. But if he’s not ready to marry her when/if that ultimatum is delivered, he should go. Marriage isn’t walking a plank, it’s a lifetime of commitment, sacrifice, compromise, work and… oh did I mention sacrifice? If you’re not 100% on board you should jump ship before it gets too late.
(I will also say that marriage at its best is amazing. A good marriage shows the best of humanity in one tiny microcosm: love, sacrifice, commitment, regular and awesome sex, spiritual bonds and more… But that sort of thing doesn’t start with an ultimatum.)
-J
Oh and He, I like your advice as well but I disagree that it’s wasting time to be with someone if you’re not going to be with them forever.
It can be a HUGE waste of of time for women, if they really want marriage and children. Some do, some don’t. But if you do, keep in mind that the years go by awfully fast. You don’t know just how fast until you get older. Anyone reading this who is over 40 knows what I mean. Life rushes by. Those of you in your 20′s don’t know it yet.
Yep.
Jill, you’re right on this one. If a woman hopes to give birth to a healthy baby, Jill is right; time does matter. If not, it doesn’t matter as much.
Women are having babies well into their 40s; however, after 35 the odds of infertility, high risk pregnancies, and birth defects begins to rise significantly.
I suggest that you just be honest in the first place and tell her that marriage is very risky for men and serves little purpose other than a tool for women’s power and control in marriage and divorce. It’s not that you don’t trust her, you don’t trust the system.
That’s fair, and telling her that gives her a chance to move on to find someone who doesn’t feel that way. The majority of women want to have children and if so, they should not be with guys who don’t. That’s the bottom line.
The majority of people, men and women, are told by everything (media, peers, tradition, parents) that marrying, having kids and the white picket fence is THE ideal, and that pretty much nothing compares, in fact nothing else exists.
So the “most women want children” might be a product of that culture rather than always a genuine desire.
Great discussion! I am a big supporter of being clear about what you want, being honest about it, and then letting things move on from there. Too many people operate from a belief that if they’re (fill in the blank) enough, their partner will change and/or accommodate their desires. Bad plan.
This is so typically US-biased.
In every other country in which I’ve lived (and in many other countries where I have good friends) getting married has very little to do with making a commitment/having a family.
It’s just not necessary. Except for legal/financial benefits (which admittedly, don’t exist in those other places I’m talking about for the most part– civil unions are recognised equally with marriage), WHY do you need to get married?
But then, I’m a maverick and I ADORE living outside the box. Apparently, a lot of people feel the need/pressure to conform to societal expectations. And I guess that’s their right. I agree with the people who say it should be an honest, up-front discussion and that neither party should compromise her/his basic principals away for the sake of either marriage or non-marriage.
For once I agree with everything you say.
Marriage shouldn’t be the default position.
To Eric M.
For us, we were so busy all the time and had both been married and divorced before. Being married doesn’t make you committed, the marriage is a symbol of that commitment. Because of the fact that we had a baby pretty fast into our relationship, we were more deeply committed than most married people who don’t have kids. No matter what, we were going to do our damnedest to make their lives steady and to stay together. Nothing about that changed when we got married except the law in relation to us.
-j
PS You could argue that we were even a little superstitious about it… I’d entertain that idea. But our commitment to one another could never be challenged, not from the day I knew I was pregnant with our oldest.
She said, He said,
I would be good if everyone went into marriage with that same determination, or didn’t have children. It would make for a better and more stable society overall, IMO.
Cheers
By the way, our commitment that goal doesn’t mean we’ve always been happy… But not being married definitely didn’t make us less committed than married people. I just needed to clarify that. I’m not rainbows and butterflies about marriage, childrearing or relationships. It’s all complicated and imperfect. But I guess there’s beauty in the imperfections.
-j
*sigh*
He and She are both idiots. Fact.
Off the bat, neither have even ADDRESSED the BASICS of what and WHY you’d want to be married.
Good Lord, it was like reading a book on physics written by a 5 yro.
The guy in this case doesn’t want to change a thing because he is getting what he wants out the arrangement…which is likely: sex & domestic services.
The girl in this case should be direct in communicating her expectations. Dropping hints is manipulative and damaging to herself.
Isn’t she getting sex too? How do we know she is providing domestic services and he isn’t? I dislike this idea that the woman is the giver of sex and the man is receiving it or that the proper payment for domestic services is a wedding ring. (The cow and milk metaphor that came up here in other posts.)
I have a certain amount of ambivalence about marriage. I feel as though people are pressured to enter into it for many reasons and that the high divorce rate may indicate that many people enter it who shouldn’t or who have not really thought it through.
It is good in that it is an agreement not to just walk away easily when things get tough, and that helps. I do think it can also be a source of confusion. Instead of actually discussing what you expect from each other you enter this standard union, assume it will fit and that you both have the same assumptions about what “marriage” means. Often people don’t. Marriage is fine and not being married is fine. More important in my book is addressing what you want from each other and can give to each other.
One of the very important things I was not clear on from the letter was whether the girlfriend wants marriage because she thinks that is “the next step” and she is feeling social pressure, or whether she wants children and wants to feel secure that the father will be there, or whether there is some other reason for her desire for marriage. She may not be clear on it. I’ve been thinking a lot about this question, at age 42. I’m not sure whether I always assumed I would marry simply because that is what people do or because I really feel as though it would be the best way for me to live. It is not an easy question.
What assumptions do each have about what marriage is and what it will do to and for their relationship? What are their feelings about those and are they compatible, and if they are not, which desire/goal of each individual is more pressing– the desire to be with this person or the desire to be married. I don’t think anyone could give a hard and fast rule for any of that. Marriage is about compromise, but not marriage is also about compromise and all of life is about feeling out when you should bend and when you should not.
I was *this* close to posting this website to my facebook page, as I am always looking for content that speaks to men’s issues in a non-woman-undermining way.
And then I saw this: “and he’s banging hookers against a wall in Union Station. Fact.”.
What a hateful statement. It disrespects men, to suggest that this would be their response to dissatisfaction, though male depression as a response to stress is a growing health crisis, Furthermore, it is disrespectful to women who find themselves caught up in the sex trade, where 85% are found to be victims of child sexual assault.
I was never fond of the name of this blog, as if “good men” were something created as a project rather than all men being considered to be sacred beings and worthy of the same respect we would hopefully accord to women. My friend who is also concerned about the amount of negativism towards men and boys has never liked the content, finding that the presentation implies that males are bad unless miraculously discovered not to be.
Having a statement such as that above thrown about so casually tells me that this blog is not about contributing to the development of a respectful society.