Veronica Grace asks how you define the undefinable.
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Years ago I had a close friend who was struggling with a life that began in a male body but with a feeling of wrongness about that body. Eventually this friend came to understand that she was not a man even though her body screamed “Man!” to the world. After that realization, it took years while she worked through issues and meltdowns and fears and celebrations both small and large, as she brought her outside life into line with her inside.
Becoming a woman did not stop her from loving stereotypically male activities, things she’d loved her whole life. Yet her love for those activities caused her doubt and a feeling of discomfort. It seems that it’s not easy to explain to people that you are a woman in a man’s body. When you add on top of that traditionally male interests and being attracted to women, most people get even more confused. She was sometimes one of the people who was most confused by these seeming disparities.
Which leads me to the question of what exactly is it about a man that makes him a man? I was going to say “as a woman I am unqualified to decide.” But the more I think about it, the more I feel we are all completely unqualified to define gender for anyone but ourselves.
When I look around in the world I see a few main themes our society uses to determine masculinity and manhood. Please note that I don’t agree with any of these. They are simply the themes I see played out in the world around me.
They are:
Activities: Things “men” are perceived as doing. I asked a group of men and they gave examples that included sports but not just any sports, beer but not just any beer, being mechanical but not just any kind of mechanical. Repairing things, hunting, and martial arts were also mentioned.
Women: Being attracted to women. Being able to “get” a woman. Being able to have a family with a woman and take care of a woman. Everything except anything that even hints at BEING or acting like a woman. This of course is disgustingly heteronormative just to point out one of the most obvious problems with this theme.
Penis: Having one. There seem to be expectations around size and reliability of function as well.
Toughness: Strength and power, in mind, body and bank account.
My friend was born with all of these “qualifications” – she liked manly activities, was attracted to women, had a penis, and was strong. And so it was extremely difficult to accept herself as a woman while still fitting so much of society’s expectations of men. It took time for her to feel comfortable in her non-man-ness enough to participate in some activities and to allow herself to feel and be powerful. There was a period of adjustment to the idea that giving up manhood did not mean giving up strength.
From the outside it seemed that as hard as that was, it was not as difficult as making the transition from “I am a woman inside” to “I am a woman.” She came to some sort of peace with telling people she was transitioning to female, long before she was able to say or believe that she was a woman. It was as if she only felt entitled to say she was in training, or as if she always had to remind everyone, including herself that she had not completed the necessary prerequisites to graduate with her degree in womanhood. It seems that it’s easier to disqualify yourself from a group than to feel entitled to be a member of one.
There are also societal expectations for being a “real” woman. They include but are not limited to things like having a vagina, having interest in and the ability to attract men, having the drive and ability to have babies and nurture them as society sees fit.
My friend never seemed to feel that she could live up to her idea of the requirements to be a woman. She often talked about not being a “real woman.” She is not the only woman, trans or cis, that I have heard voice concerns about not being a “real woman.” For some it’s not having a vagina, for some it’s being unable to get pregnant or not feeling any drive to motherhood. For some it’s not desiring the attention of men, or not desiring the attention of men in the way society says they should.
This has always pissed me off. I rarely rant but this subject always puts me in a ranting mood. I want to scream and yell and point and stomp and make sure my point is heard. And this is my point:
You are a woman because you are. You don’t need any special equipment, you don’t need society’s approval. You don’t need to attract anyone or give birth to anyone or want to breastfeed anyone to be a woman. You don’t need to do girly things, you don’t need to look like a woman, you don’t need anything at all except the simple fact that you are a woman.
I want to take this space to say the same things for men. But I feel like men need to do that for themselves and other men. Instead I will say, if you hang out at The Good Men Project it doesn’t take long to see that you can be a man and love yarn. You can be a man and not be attracted to or successful with women or interested in being with many women. You can be a man and have or have had a vagina. and emotions. and a way with babies. You can desire affection from men. You can desire and have sex with men. You can be introverted. You can be just about anything that fits or does not fit into the stereotypes and be a man.
♦◊♦
So if you can be or do just about anything and be a man, how do we define masculinity?
Some people try to define masculinity by how it would be different from femininity. What is unique to men? What makes men different from women? I don’t think there is much value in that. Defining ourselves based on what we are not or on our relation to other people or groups is flawed and disrespectful to everyone involved. There may be general differences that statistically are more often true of men than women, but if you use those to define men you leave out the men who do not fit them or who do not fit them all. Besides, who gets to decide which items get on the list?
So am I saying there is no difference between men and women, or any other gender or mix of genders? Not at all. What I’m saying is that masculinity is not something I believe we can come up with a static/one size fits all definition for. Masculinity is too deep, personal and nuanced of a concept to be captured in a check off list.
In our writers call today one of the new writers said that he’d spent time with a poetry group trying to define poetry. In the end they decided that it is much more effective to show poetry than to try to write up a definition of it, he thought the same was true of masculinity. I agree completely. That’s why I love The Good Men Project, because I believe that one story at a time is the most powerful way to show what being a man is.
Masculinity – to me — is what men do from the part of them that they feel as male. If you take away the messages of our culture what are the moments, relationships and activities that make you feel masculine? Maybe it’s the power of your legs as you run, or the tenderness of your arms as you hold your child. Maybe it’s the feeling of building or repairing things, or maybe it’s the feeling of designing a great new skirt with pockets. Maybe it’s that feeling you get when you feel almost defeated but like you absolutely did the right thing. Can you define that? Can you pinpoint what part of you it comes from or what about it makes you feel masculine?
My husband has a knitting machine, when he knits it comes from the part of him that loves yarn, and making things and machines and tinkering with machines to make them do just what he wants. For him, knitting is a masculine expression. My husband loves to build things, it comes from the part of him that loves to make things and and use power tools and change our environment. Knitting and building things are just activites, masculinity is a meaning we give to them. The key is, does society give the definition? or does it come from you?
Who gave you your definition of masculinity?
Hi Ogwriter
There is a reason why your username is writer.
Writing is maybe your artform?
This is lovely how you express yourself:
✺”Fall’s creep is being felt where I live too.The late afternoon sunlight is thinner now and less robust,unable to hold back the darkness and chill of the Autumn nights.”✺
This is goooood 🙂
Hello Iben,how are you? Well I trust.Thank you for your kind praise.Even an old cynic like me is not entirely without a modicum of charm and romance.I was duly inspired by your melancholy musings.The feeling and words came to me in a burst.I hadn’t written anything creative since the spring.
This is something I have been thinking about for a while now, and I found your article interesting. For me, the definition of my gender identity is based on other people around me: I self-identify as feminine because I feel much greater affinity with other women than I do with men. It has nothing to do with my physical body, which is unambiguously male. It caused me a lot of uncertainty over the years as I felt I should identify with my male peers: I didn’t have the mental concepts to be able to work out and explain who I… Read more »
Hello Iben.Fall’s creep is being felt where I live too.The late afternoon sunlight is thinner now and less robust,unable to hold back the darkness and chill of the Autumn nights. The girlfriend…let’s just say,I wish I was as secure in the past as I seem to be now.Thank you for asking,you have a good memory. As you noted there are a hosts of pressing concerns facing the planet.Our inability to get out of our own way prevents us from making the kind of meaningful human connections we say we want and need. What used to be a personal relationship between… Read more »
Hello Iben.I will try to find the article you mentioned,although a Google search will likely put me some government terrorist watchlist.I think you are right about there being far more serious concerns in the world today than the reformation of the male and female personas.Unfortunately,we assume that what is important to us in the western world is also equally important to the rest of the world.That premise- we are the world- drives most of the conversations on GMP.
Hi Veronica Grace , you write: ✺”So if you can be or do just about anything and be a man, how do we define masculinity?”✺ ✺ “Masculinity – to me — is what men do from the part of them that they feel as male.”✺ .✺ “The key is, does society give the definition? or does it come from you?”✺ Veronica, as a woman I do not feel like you describe it. But maybe I am more a mix of male and female than purely female? Lets turn it around and see if a woman can find out what femininity… Read more »
I won’t argue with your experience of inside of you(o: I actually relate quite a bit with what you describe. I have a few things that feel like an expression of the feminine or female parts of me, but for the most part I just feel like me and don’t feel a need to sort my characteristics into male and female. Which is good since I have a fair number of non gender stereotype conforming characteristics and if I cared that could cause some suffering. I do feel very comfortable with the label of woman, and I don’t think I… Read more »
Hi Alyssa I am comfortable in my body. A tomboy grew up to be a women. If some feel a strong indication of maleness or femaleness from inside I will not invalidate their feeling and sense of identity. So your advice it not a bad advice. I have zero knowledge about this issue, and wonder if trans persons are born that way,or not. Children know their gender at age three, and we all go through some sort of gender socialization . In the West we partially free to choose our gender roles. I do not know why many men are… Read more »
@Iben I can’t believe you are giving up so soon.This is a male female conversation.Men and women define and reciprocally inhibit each other.But there are limits to what one can demand and expect of the other.That is what needs to be determined and only men and women can accomplish that.Many women define themselves as women by their opposition to the desires and expectations of men.That narrative, matrinizing as it is,is the progressive mainstream remedy for what ails men and women. In my life experience,the more flexible the couple in their definition of the other,the better positioned they are to deal… Read more »
Hi Ogwriter If you ask me to come back, I am back 🙂 So often we hear men here on GMP tell women that they don’t want to here what women want or think about masculinity. So I thought it was best to leave the discussion to you men. But I see your point . You are right. I have just read the new article her called “Escape the act like a man box.” And it made me think. I will be back tomorrow. You are an interesting man Ogwriter. It is a pity I can not share articles I… Read more »
Hello Iben,how goes it?I will consider your comment a compliment.Thank you. I like to think that I am interesting,maybe even thought provoking. I trust you can appreciate why some men feel as you described.They are reacting in the same way many women do in response to pressures from men to define them.I think both sides are wrong to react this way.Knee jerk reactions typically don’t make for good stratedgy.Knee jerk reactions are base,gut level,defensive maneuvars,lacking the kind of subtle,nuanced, thought needed for solving problems.It feels as though the usefulness of the traditional male and female models has run its course.Considering… Read more »
Hi Ogwriter I feel a little lonely as the autumn now brings cold weather to my country,and each day is a little shorter until the sun turns in December. We spend more time indoors. I hope you still have your girlfriend ,she sounded nice:) I agree with you in what you say here. And this sums it up: ✺”It feels as though the usefulness of the traditional male and female models has run its course”✺ And think even our models of society has run its course. Do you know that the Una bomber has written a brilliant analyzes of techno… Read more »
@ Nathan Hmmm…I don’t that shame is a good motivator and like corporal punishment,too often,is misued.My was explaining to me how she and her husband spoiled their daughter,who is now 28.I am not sure how shaming this woman will help mature her.Shame,if it is useful,like guilt, must used minimally, then abandoned.
Hi Theorema ,Ogwriter and others
I leave the discussion here,this is mens issues, but take a look at what Wikipedia says about masculine and gender identity:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity
Masculinity under fascist Italian
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_of_masculinity_under_fascist_Italy
Masculinity I should probably not write this, but I can’t help myself. For me masculinity is maturity. A man or a transman is masculine when he grows up and become a mature adult. An adult that stands in his own feet, can survive in this world and fight like all adults have to survive in this world. Life is not easy for anyone. He is not irresponsible. And it makes me sad to read Theorema write: ✺ “I was brought up with the notion that a women is something you ARE and a man is something you DO. That maleness… Read more »
Dear iben! This afternoon while I was in the gym I was musing about your comment and suddenly I got an inkling of a (at least to me) surprising solution to the whole conundrum. So thank you for that! The key is this: When I (and other men) try to construct our own masculinity, what are we if we fail? Traditionally masculinity is constructed as opposite to femininity. If I fail to be a “real man”, I am a pussy, which means a woman. Not man ==> woman. Agree that that is the traditional perception? And now I realized that… Read more »
I like this idea a lot. My quibble might be that being a male does not make you “masculine,” nor being female “feminine.” This is why a person can describe someone as a “masculine” woman or a “feminine” man.
But you are so correct…. for the individual, it’s really about maturity, in the end.
Hi Theorema Egregium You have an interesting name 🙂 And your thoughts around this also interesting. ✺”So if I fail in being a man (adult male human), I am not a woman (I KNOW I am not), I am … a boy”✺ Well. Yes and no. Obviously you are not a woman. Imagine a elderly man in the nursing home at the end of life, frail , helpless and maybe demented and in need of constant care. He is not reduced to boy by age and ill health, he is a man, but not so masculine a man as he… Read more »
@ Theorema Many people do what you and Iben are suggesting but It may be as problematic as the alternative.I told my sons that once they have become men no one can take that away from you.Therefore breaking some arbitrary code means little.In other words,if a woman fails to take care of her children she doesn’t become a girl!?She becomes an irresponsible woman.Calling a grown man a boy because he fails someone’s maturity test is no different than the traditional masculinity shaming.The problem is people continue to insist upon using sweeping,personalized, judgments to define what they neither experience nor must… Read more »
But there’s nothing wrong with shame, when it’s for shameful acts. Lance Armstrong should feel shame for cheating. A child should feel shame for letting a friend of theirs get bullied and not standing up for them. Shame serves a useful purpose of upholding moral and cultural values. So if a grown man acts like a boy (say, spends money he doesn’t have, or fails to treat a woman with respect) then he has not been mature and should be ashamed of himself. That shame, imposed by others or by his own internal code, motivates him to be a better… Read more »
@ Nathan Hmmm…I don’t that shame is a good motivator and like corporal punishment,too often,is misued.My was explaining to me how she and her husband spoiled their daughter,who is now 28.I am not sure how shaming this woman will help mature her.Shame,if it is useful,like guilt, must used minimally, then abandoned.
[I]So am I saying there is no difference between men and women, or any other gender or mix of genders?[/I] I am afraid that is in fact exactly what you are saying. It is a case of circular reasoning: If I feel me knitting is a masculine activity the inference is not “I knit, which is manly therefore I am man”, it is “I am man and knit, therefore knitting must be manly”. Because if I were a woman I might with the same justification say that knitting is a female activity, right? Therefore the act of knitting has no… Read more »
Well first we could start in stilling it in the ones who are still whatever that magic age is. But also, my understanding of brain science tells me that the more we believe we can change our thoughts the more we can. Will it be magic and perfect and easy and you just decide and it’s true? Hell no. But there has to be a belief that you can at least make progress toward being a man… being about “being” instead of about “doing” From there we start the really hard journey of how do you do that. But believing… Read more »
Faith and idealism can only take you so far.While it is possible to rewire one’s brain,doing it is an all consuming task. It takes roughly 10,000 hours of keenly driven,focused, effort to master a new skill.It may take even longer to rewrite a bad script.Or maybe one will be lucky and have a life changing event that cuts through the crap.Nonetheless,there are practical matters that must be addressed and resolved for change to occur.Sadly,it is progressives who ,convinced of the righteousness of their politics, are clogging the drain.Think of it,the folks who by tradition should be leading the way are… Read more »
Thank you very much for your kind words. Today I had a surprising insight on how it might just be possible to solve the problem without the need for making the big change in our heads; a surprisingly small change might be all it takes. I expounded it all in detail on the bottom of the page as a reply to iben. I would be glad to get your take on it.
The thing of it is, self-confidence and self-esteem come from having an ideal and working hard to meet it. Studying hard to get a A, working together to win a game, acting appropriately and getting a compliment… The self-esteem movement thought they could put the cart before the horse, but kids know the difference between a 1st place trophy and a participation trophy. So “being a man” or “doing” it as Teorema says, is striving for an ideal. It’s motivation to be better than yourself, just as Christ is an ideal of love and humility, or Buddha an ideal of… Read more »
So if masculine is something you do rather than something you are, then who are you? I am pretty sure she didn’t say anything along the lines of there being no difference between masculinity and feminity. What I THINK she is saying is that you can be masculine without necessarily possessing all of the stereotypes that society has placed upon you. It’s up to you to find out what makes you masculine, what makes you a man. If being a man is simply something that you do then you possess no identity, no characteristics: you blindly follow what society tells… Read more »
I absolutely can relate to your point about masculinity being impermanent.I prefer to define impermanence that as conditional.In others words,masculinity can and taken from you,at a moments notice for violations of the man rules.This is especially true in the black community.Standing up to this monster is,if one is even aware of its existance,a dangerous, arduos task,that can leave one isolated,rejected by one’s community and depressed.Most women are woefully ignorant that manhood/masculinity are defined this way(black women just don’t get it) and that they contribute to the process oppressors.After all,only men are capable of being oppressors.This is one reason why women… Read more »
Masculinity – to me — is what men do from the part of them that they feel as male. If you take away the messages of our culture what are the moments, relationships and activities that make you feel masculine? Maybe it’s the power of your legs as you run, or the tenderness of your arms as you hold your child. Maybe it’s the feeling of building or repairing things, or maybe it’s the feeling of designing a great new skirt with pockets. Maybe it’s that feeling you get when you feel almost defeated but like you absolutely did the… Read more »
I can’t agree with hardly any statements that contain “all” (o: I’ve never thought someone was less masculine for that sort of thing, but to be clear I can’t think of a time I ever thought of someone as less masculine or more masculine. I may think of them as less helpful or more selfish, or less capable or more self protective. But it won’t be based on their gender, though I do notice that there are many men who are more willing to do that sort of helpful thing. I also notice there seem to be more women who… Read more »
…on the other hand,men must not sit by passively, as they did for decades, allowing others to misrepresent who they are.Like it or nor this fight is political as well as personal.Fortunately,at least on ocassion, some of that resistance is breaking through to the mainstream.However,on the national level,men do not have sufficient input or control of the discussion to effect change.In massive mega complex societies identities are multidimensional and hierarchal.The rules that define masculinity are not the same for everyone and some men must master multiple identities to live.In truth,it may be foolish to try and construct a global definition… Read more »
If something can be anything, than everything could be it, and the term defines nothing. Masculinity cannot be left up to each individual to determine, or it has no meaning. Words have meaning, determined through culture, tradition, history… You can’t just wish those away. Masculine and feminine are qualities, on a spectrum, that we use to characterize people, places, activities. The hurt comes from assuming that in doing so one is saying one is better than he other. No. It’s okay to be a feminine man. Rock it, if that’s who you are. But don’t tell everyone else you’re just… Read more »
But I possess strength, courage, mastery, and the respect of my peers. So how does this definition define masculinity?
Speaking for the author: these four qualities explain what someone means when they describe a person as “manly.” His premise is that they are how primitive humans would have judged a male for his ability to defend the tribe. While other virtues, such as honesty, compassion, and wisdom make a person a “good man,” they don’t make a person “manly.” If you examine historical or media examples of “manly” men, these qualities explain what makes them so. Of course, women can have all four of these qualities, and an individual woman more so than an individual man. But women aren’t… Read more »
Hi Nathan
You say it well here:
✺ “I would argue we should accept what they are and embrace our freedom to choose which of these ideals we wish for ourselves as individuals, and accept other individuals for who they choose to be.”✺
…folks keep sayin’,”leave it up to the individual,define yourself,don’t listen to others.”The problem is they don’t say how this is to be done in a complex co dependent society.Does anyone actually believe men and women can define themselves in absence of the wants,needs and desires of others?One could argue that men are misunderstood today because men lost control of their identity.The battle to reclaim that identity is,at least in theory,the very reason GMP exist.It is a robust discussion with many different voices having vested interests lending their opinions.Is there any doubt that attempting to define masculinity for oneself is an… Read more »
You have an excellent point. We absolutely need to begin teaching people how to define themselves in our complex and in many ways messed up society. I hope the first step in that is simply the suggestion to be mindful of where the attitudes and beliefs you currently have came from. It isn’t enough, but it’s a powerful start. Once you begin to see that these beliefs came from somewhere and are not inherently true, you can begin the journey of sorting through them to figure out which ones you believe on their own merit and which ones you would… Read more »
“Knitting and building things are just activities, masculinity is a meaning we give to them….” This is such an interesting question….my doctor is European and so unlike the rough and tumble, tough-talking jock-y surgeon stereotype (he is definitely not anything like “The Todd” from “Scrubs”!)…..he is reserved and well-mannered and just quietly confident…he doesn’t blurt things out and talk over people…he enters the room slowly and takes a temperature (Is the patient anxious? Mad? Frustrated? Or just sad?)….then he gently makes his greeting and listens…and listens….I ask questions and he gives me a respectful answer…when all is said and done,… Read more »
“I was going to say “as a woman I am unqualified to decide.” But the more I think about it, the more I feel we are all completely unqualified to define gender for anyone but ourselves.”
True.
In the end it has to be left to the individual.
As soon as you start imposing on other people what forms or traits of masculinity are “real” that’s when the trouble starts.
Feel free to disagree and even not like it but as soon as you start trying to dictate you’ve already messed up.
Agree, who cares? As long as it does not depend on hurting people.
I care. I care because I want people to know that masculinity can have several meanings and definitions all relative to the person you are rather than having someone define them for you. In some ways it’s about respect but moreso about how you can have a bunch of different characteristics, qualities, and emotions yet still be considered masculine if that’s what you identify with.
I care, and so should you.
I have no idea what masculinity means and in some ways I don’t care. I want to be treated with respect and decency and I’m tired of people trying box me into their stereotypes.