Lisa Solod wants young women to understand that feminism is about much more than just sex.
My mother married my father because, she told me in a rare moment of candor, she wanted to have sex with him. She was 25 and tired of pre-sex fumbling and stolen kisses. My father was, of course, far more experienced, having been in the Pacific Theater during World War II; far less discreet about his former life (and life in general) he told his daughters inappropriate tales of the women he had met on shore leave. One I particularly remember had her front teeth filed into points. Well into their marriage, each of them managed to be unfaithful and they finally separated (but not because of infidelity) after twenty years of marriage. Yet, for another dozen years or so they would hook up here and there, travel together, and, of course have sex. In a further revelation, my mother told me that the sex was the best part of her relationship with my father.
I came of age at the tail end but the real beginning of the sexual revolution (1971-1974). At that point, sexual liberation was inextricably tied to the rise of feminism. Having sex like men, i.e., without attachment, was part of our freedom. But too many of us got hurt. We hadn’t yet factored in the biology of mating and how really hard it was to have that much sex without any real commitment. Most of the women I know who grew up during those years had far more sexual encounters than they were ever willing to reveal to their husbands. Those of us who divorced then dived back into the sexual market with the same abandon. I am not sure we were all the wiser. I hear STDs are on the rise in the over 50 group, which doesn’t surprise me. We all were pretty practiced in birth control but we took it into our own hands, with the pill and the diaphragm. This was pre-AIDS. Barrier methods were not our methods of choice then. They are not, apparently, our method now, either.
But those of us who grew up in the trenches of the sexual revolution know that feminism was about far more than women having the kind of meaningless sex with men that men had been having with us for eons. Feminism, which is still being parsed in the media as well as our own homes, still being debated and discussed and accepted and dismissed, was about being able to control (to the extent that anyone can) our work lives, our love lives, our lives as a whole. It was about being able to have a career, being paid equally well for that career, and making our own decisions about marriage and childbirth without having to merely capitulate to what society had set out for us. I, for one, was happy not to have to marry to have sex. I was thrilled to be able to go to college and think about a career without worrying that it might make me unmarriageable. I was ecstatic about the notion that I could make decisions for myself.
All those ideas I passed along to my daughter. But, of course, she had no need to wrestle with those notions as the women in my generation had. She lived in a society where (she thought) feminism was taken for granted. Women her age did not talk about marriage, either as an option or something to reject. They saw it as fact that women could do anything.
But sex still gets in the way. Even for young women who begin sentences with the phrase “I am not a feminist but… ”
Sex, for the women of my daughter’s generation, has too often meant the kind of pleasure that was once reserved for more intimate relationships. The statistics on young girls giving oral sex to boys, without expecting anything in return, sadden me. The still complicit willingness to be submissive to a boy’s desire isn’t what I had hoped would be a benefit of the sexual revolution. Even worse, perhaps, oral sex isn’t thought of as sex at all. Girls can keep their virginity intact while having the kind of sex it took me years to be comfortable with. Although the website feministing (in 2008) cited a survey that dismissed the media hype as just that, anecdotal evidence from talking with my daughter and her friends does imply that oral sex isn’t thought of as the “real” thing, no matter who is doing it to whom. And that boys are more often than not the recipients.
It is apparent the submissiveness of women during the sexual act is still the stuff of a lot of fantasies. And the subject of two recent New York Times editorials. (One by Maureen Dowd.) Why else would E.L. James’ sloppily written trilogy about a submissive college student have taken off as a bestseller and been sold to the movies for $5 million? (Sex, even badly written, sells. At least The Story of O was well crafted.). Why else would Girls, a new television show, concentrate on exploring the sort of soulless coupling that has the goal, according to the article, of having sex and feeling nothing? Frank Bruni, the writer of the story about Girls uses the word “post-feminist.”
Well, pardon me Frank, but we are no more a post-feminist society than we are a post-racial one. The goals of feminism have yet to be reached. But if there is still a lot going on in feminism right now, too much of it centers around sex. It’s no wonder, of course: with the draconian birth control laws some Republicans wish to re-instate, the insane attempt to repeal abortion freedom that has captured the airwaves, the overwhelming wish by too many men (yes, it is mostly all men) to slide women backwards is extremely troubling. But those things have to do with much more than sex, even if it seems that sexual supression is the goal.
In 2010 in a Harper’s magazine article that should have received far more notice than it did, feminist icon Susan Faludi wrote extensively about the mother/daughter divide in feminism and how young feminists were tired of being grateful to the older women who had paved the way. Faludi, in what could be called a eulogy to the feminist movement, wrote:
“The nineteenth -century feminist dream of ‘the empire of the mother,’ which gave way first to the hope that ‘sisterhood was powerful’ and then to the hokum of ‘girl power,’ now faces displacement from an even more infantile transgressiveness (‘the brave new world of Gaga girliness’), a cosmetic revolt that has less in common with feminism than with 1920s flapperism. It posits a world where pseudo-rebellions are mounted but never won nor desired to be won, where ‘liberation’ begins and ends with wordplay and pop-culture pastiche and fishnet stockings and where all needs can be met by the bountiful commercial breast, the markeplace’s simulacrum of the mother.”
Televisions shows about women being casually sexual and pornographic novels being optioned for the movies fall in line: they are the big news. That’s unfortunate.
Faludi decries the shedding of feminist history. I lament both that and the divisiveness that still marks the movement (which Ariel Levy wrote so movingly about in The New Yorker in 2009). But more than that, I wonder when it all came down to sex.
I applaud the Slut Walks and the way young women wish to take back their right to dress as they please without being attacked (the law has been far too behind on this notion). I applaud the idea that women can be sexual beings outside of marriage; that they don’t have to be afraid of their own sexuality as my mother was afraid of hers. I even applaud the right to have meaningless sex if one so chooses. All of those things can be ultimate gains for women, but not if those gains costs her her soul, not if sex becomes the only fight worth marching for.
Just because the Republicans have made women all about sex doesn’t mean we have to accept their view of us. We need birth control and abortion rights; we definitely need to have control over our own bodies (the advent of birth control has made it possible for women to work, to make money, to be successful ) but we also need to remember that what we didn’t fight for was the right to behave as badly as men. While it is no mystery that the popularity of sexual submissiveness goes hand in hand with a rise in power (there is no shortage of important men who are happy to play the sexual submissive), let’s not forget to make sure we keep our power in the first place. Keep it, fight for it, hold on to it. Make sure that power is about more than sex. And let’s not trade our power in the world for a lack of it in the bedroom.
Feminism isn’t just about sexual liberation. It isn’t just about making choices about who to sleep with and when and even why. We need to be mindful of the fact that the sexual act can still do great damage, both physically and psychically. Liberation doesn’t give us the right to do ourselves damage, although I suppose it does give us the privilege. But what liberation should do now and forever is to give us the responsibility to be our best and most honest selves in all ways, in and out of the the bedroom. Frank Bruni is right to worry about depersonalization. If it starts in the bedroom it may well spill over into the rest of life. And that would be neither feminist nor post-feminist. It would be incredibly self-destructive.
Photo: AP/Josh Reynolds
http://www.canadiancrc.com/newspaper_articles/Globe_and_Mail_Father_loses_custody_guardians_30JAN07.aspx
Here is a really good example of this.
What is also amazing about the courts decisions (here in Canada) , they have stated time and time again that when a person is at a biological disadvantage they must be given greater right NOT less rights. These case though have all been about women who are (were) at a biological disadvantage in cases such as physical fitness tests etc. YET, they seem to say to men who in fact are at a biological disadvantage that oh well, too bad, that is what nature gave you, deal with it.
@ Uglygirl I think the best way to sum up the adoption laws in the U.S. is this. If the rights of the father were truly protected, establishing paternity would be required before a child can be adopted. A father’s consent would be required before a child can be adopted. Even you’re not arguing that this is the case. Since this is not the case, why is it so? There is an assumption made by the courts that if a father wanted to parent his child, he would have some involvement with the mother during pregnancy. I’ve had discussions about… Read more »
@Transhuman … Although I am against abortion, I see what you’re saying and in theory it’s right on but unfortunately will never happen simply because of the “It’s my body.” The unborn is not seen as a separate entity.
How about we have the women who abort fill out a form that asks if the father of the unborn agrees with the abortion much knows about the abortion? Let’s start compiling stats on the fathers role in all of this?
Are you saying that abortion should require the father’s consent, IE that he should be signing off on the procedure, or just that we should be gathering data on this? If the former, I think that that is sadly impractical. In most cases the father’s right to be involved in the decision is obvious, but what if the woman is seeking the abortion because she fears some reprisal from the father over the pregnancy, or has been raped? Honestly, I think this is an issue where we can, as the slogan goes, ‘trust women’ – I think healthy relationships, unlike… Read more »
@ Alex “what if the woman is seeking the abortion because she fears some reprisal from the father over the pregnancy, or has been raped?” I’ve heard this argument before. It’s based on the flawed belief that women are the ultimate ethical beings and would never act in their own self interest or be vindictive towards a man. We can’t enforce a father’s visitation rights because what I she’s keeping the children away from him because he’s abusive. The 14 year old shouldn’t have to tell her parents because what if their abusive. What if they’re not? I guess that’s… Read more »
**âFathers should have the right to unilateral adoptions. They should be allowed to put a child up for adoption without the consent of the mother as women now have the right to do without the consent of the father.â** This is untrue. Federal adoption laws require the agreement of both biological parents in all adoption situations. A biological father can stop any adoption from occurring just by refusing to sign the papers. There are occasionally cases where a woman has not informed the father and gone through with the adoption in secret; if the father finds out later and objects,… Read more »
“The argument of âmy body, my choiceâ is valid”
That is an incomplete thought and hence faulty logic.
The complete logical thought is “Her body, her choice, her RESPONSIBILITY”, unless the man chooses, voluntarily to take on some responsiblity as well. If she can unilaterally decide whether to give birth or not, she must be made to accept the responsiblity for HER choice.
“The complete logical thought is âHer body, her choice, her RESPONSIBILITYâ, unless the man chooses, voluntarily to take on some responsibility as well. If she can unilaterally decide whether to give birth or not, she must be made to accept the responsibility for HER choice.” @ Eric, I agree. The current laws on child support are lopsided and punitive and require total revamping. The biology (and the burden) is on women… as long as choice is available. But you must realize that choice is not exactly something all American women have depending on where they live. In many states and… Read more »
UglyGirl, “Could we possibly revamp the child support laws in a way that takes a womanâs reasonable access to abortion (and therefore ability to choose) into account?” OK, but I doubt there will be many situaitons where that is the case. Between 1.2 and 1.3 million abortions are performed in the United States each year. 40% of unplanned pregnancies are terminated by abortion, according to the #1 abortion advocacy organizatoin and authority in abortion statistics, the Guttmacher Institute. GI is truly pro-abortion; so, they are unlikely to inflate the numbers as a pro-life group might be tempted to do. The… Read more »
“This is untrue. Federal adoption laws require the agreement of both biological parents in all adoption situations.” The sticking point is, he has to be recognized as the father before he is capable of blocking the adoption, and in far too many states, it is very difficult (if not impossible) to become recognized as the father if 1: you are not already married to the mother, 2: don’t have the mother co-operation (say, because she wants to adopt away the child and knows the father wants to keep it). Let me ask you, I know of at least one state… Read more »
âThe sticking point is, he has to be recognized as the father before he is capable of blocking the adoption, and in far too many states, it is very difficultâ Adoption laws and state paternity recognition laws are not the same thing. Adoption laws are entirely different from paternity recognition laws. A man does not have to âbe recognized as the fatherâ in adoption proceedings. State paternity laws require ONE father be officially recognized; but adoption laws can have any number of âpotential fathersâ approve the adoption petition. If any one of those âpotential fathersâ objects, the adoption procedure is… Read more »
“Adoption laws and state paternity recognition laws are not the same thing.” That’s a little dishonest. though in gathering evidence, I need to correct myself. You are right, in that a father’s consent is needed for adoption. That said, there are a number of methods of terminating a fathers rights, and thereby, need for his consent, and they are all VERY easy. Utah is particularly bad about this, which is why many mothers will run to that state to adopt out their child, confident that no father can stop them. “Exactly which state is this?” California is just one example:… Read more »
Unfortunately even feminist seem to regard abortion as a trivial thing. I have known several women that have had abortions that were very tramatized by them. I have never known any of them not to be painfully aware of what they had done and felt guilt about it. In fact one of the women started dating me after I approached her in an understanding way, being me I couldn’t help notice the pain in her eyes. So I smiled and said,”Its never an easy thing to do.” We talked for several hours.
Doc Love
(aka James W. Love, M.Ed.)
The guilt issue depends a lot on culture and norms & value of society a woman lives in. In American society, which is extremely conservative I can very well imagine that women are sent on a guilt trip.
In societies where people have different concepts, women don’t need to feel guilty because it is not implied that they did a terrible thing.
I’m from Holland where abortion is legal and women are not sent on a guilt trip. Whereas here, in rural America my obgyn outright told me that I couldn’t be his patient if I ever had an abortion….
I hope you were able to get a different OB-Gyn; and a female at that. Its predjudices like that that make me refuse to have a male doctor when possible. I hope to go back to the clinic I used to use soon. Lately I’ve had to use a free clinic that has only a retired male doctor that has tried to force dangerous drugs on me several times; I have a weird liver that makes me very conservative about what drugs I use. Hey two TYLENOLÂŽ can kill me if my liver is on a down turn!
I have to say that it was seriously hilarious to read criticism of “prejudice” to justify a refusal to see any and all male doctors, prejudging the entire male gender.
Thanks for the laugh.
LOL Eric, I was thinking the same thing. clearly, men and male doctors are all pro-life and women and female doctors are all pro-choice and this line never ever blurs.
@ Uglygirl
“If any one of those âpotential fathersâ objects, the adoption procedure is put on hold until the paternity of the objecting âpotential fatherâ is catagorically disproven”
Doesn’t require consent. They just need to get it through without the father objecting. He can’t object if he doesn’t know. That is the point we’re trying to make.
” There are occasionally cases where a woman has not informed the father and gone through with the adoption in secret;” You just contradicted yourself. You said the fathers signature was required… If his signature is required, how can she do it without him knowing? Easy answer is, you’re wrong. “if the father finds out later and objects, the adoption is reversed on the basis of fraud, and the biological father is awarded custody.” You’re welcome to show me example cases where this has happened. I doubt you’ll find them. And for every one you do, I’ll find two that… Read more »
âYou just contradicted yourself. You said the fathers signature was required⌠If his signature is required, how can she do it without him knowing? Easy answer is, youâre wrong.â The operative word there is âsecretâ. There have been cases where a woman has lied about who the father was, and the wrong man signed the papers. In cases where the mother has slept with several men, all of the âpotential fathersâ sign the papers, if one âpotential fatherâ objects, the adoption procedure is put on hold until he is proven NOT to be the father. In cases where the mother… Read more »
@ Uglygirl Your examples http://www.parentdish.com/2010/09/28/adoptive-parents-ordered-to-surrender-3-year-old-to-biological-f/ “Grayson’s biological mother tells ABC News she lost contact with Wyrembek early in her pregnancy, and wasn’t required by law to provide his contact information to the adoption agency. Court documents confirm that the biological mother and her husband — the legal father — filed the necessary papers to surrender custody of the child within weeks of his birth.” Doesn’t seem like the law protects father’s rights. ” Seventeen months later, after genetic testing confirmed Wyrembek as Grayson’s biological father, and before the adoption could be finalized, an Ohio court ruled that the Vaughns had… Read more »
So are you in favour of responsibility and financial abortion for men?
@ Uglygirl “This is untrue. Federal adoption laws require the agreement of both biological parents in all adoption situations. A biological father can stop any adoption from occurring just by refusing to sign the papers.” Why do you think there is a putative father’s registry? It is for men , who believe they may have fathered a child to retain parental rights in the event that a mother were to put a child up for adoption without the consent of the father. How does this happen? Usually vecause the woman claims that she doesn’t know who the father is. Why… Read more »
Sexual freedom is important to feminists as it represents one aspect of being like a man; the social acceptance of sex without the messy ties of marriage or even a serious relationship. However, the freedom to have sex with whom you wish carries with it the potential for pregnancy; at the moment biology trumps social constructs so only women will run the risk of being pregnant. Should this occur, feminists have advocated “her body, her choice”, so whether she keeps the child or aborts is 100% in the woman’s court. Except, if the woman keeps the child suddenly the man… Read more »
This is why I personally favor much more sex education and free contraception for all. The government should hand out condoms on every corner! And fund more research into better methods of contraception, especially methods of contraception for men. Much of the pressure on family courts to award child support is driven by the government interest in getting single mothers off welfare. The man’s interest in not supporting an unwanted child is trumped by the taxpayers’ interest in not supporting an unwanted child. between the man and the taxpayers, the man loses. (Obviously there are many women who get child… Read more »
This viewpoint shows that either the point has been missed or, worse, is an attempt to rationalize/justify gender discrmination as long as men are the victims. Why not just say that the discrimination is wrong no matter who the victim is, and should/must change? Why is it that women’s reproductive and other rights aren’t “trumped by the taxpayersâ interests” but men’s are? Where is the outrage?
“The manâs interest in not supporting an unwanted child is trumped by the taxpayersâ interest in not supporting an unwanted child. between the man and the taxpayers, the man loses. ” First, I’d like to point out that nether man nor taxpayer get to make a choice in the bringing of a child into this world, so why do they hold any responsibility to support that child? Second, you keep saying “unwanted child”, but if the child wasn’t wanted by the mother, she would not have had it (abortion) AND kept it (vs adopting it out). The mother generally wants… Read more »
Would you let a children starve because their parents can’t support them? The fact is, we don’t let that happen in this country. So the taxpayers end up on the hook for that child. The mother has the baby, has no job, ends up on welfare, or the child gets put in foster care, or whatever. This is why states aggressively pursue fathers for child support when the mother is on welfare. It’s so they can get the mother off welfare. I’m not defending the system, but that’s what happens.
No, that’s not what usually happens. Most mothers aren’t on welfare, nor should they be. If they can’t afford a child, they have plenty of options. If the man doesn’t want the child and she insists on having and raising it, she should take full responsibiliy or choose one of her opt out options. Forcing a man to have a child is no less reprehensible than forcing a woman to. Contrary to modern thinking, males are human too.
“Would you let a children starve because their parents canât support them?” This already happens. Furthermore, the government lets it happen and aids it, through family courts. If I’m not mistaken, a single mother is twice as likely as a single father to live in poverty, yet mothers continue to routinely be granted primary custody. Not to long ago, a mother shot her two children in a welfare office after having her application expire (news reported it was rejected, but it was incomplete and she never responded to voicemails requesting more info)… The father had been trying to get custody… Read more »
And, by the way, I agree with you, it’s often unfair for the unwilling father. If we had better sex education, boys might be smart (and scared) enough to wear condoms every time, and to insist their partners use birth control as well (2 methods are better than one), or not have sex. We also need to teach girls more responsibility, I’m not blaming boys over girls.
Sex education doesn’t help against intentional deception and/or sabotage. You’re making the assumption that it is uneducated boys that are being preyed on by naive girls, but the truth is, it’s women who’s biological clock has become a ticking timebomb. “and to insist their partners use birth control as well (2 methods are better than one)” Tell me, what method of birth control do you suggest the man insist their partner use that he can be assured she is using, using properly and doesn’t come off as an abusive domineering fiend? Should he stand over her while she takes her… Read more »
What can I say, what’s old is new again. I feel like I’m reading something from the twenties.
Yes, you captured the essense of feminism. This is especially because you leave room for all kinds of relationships. I always find it amusing that power brokers love to be subs sexually. Go figure.
I’m one of those guys that was in the seventies “Womens Studies”. I was also in the first Human Sexuality class at Western Carolina University.
Lisa Solod, I know that you’re tired of answering the oral sex comments and I don’t mean to be rude, but I’ve never dissuaded a woman from exposing her genitals to me at any time and have actively encouraged it. I’ve heard female strippers complain that all men want now are their vaginas and are no longer satisfied with touching or suckling their breasts. If the girls wanted oral sex, I’m pretty sure that they would have gotten it. Were they refused oral sex or did they simply not ask or want it? If given the choice, I’d much rather… Read more »
“If the girls wanted oral sex, Iâm pretty sure that they would have gotten it. Were they refused oral sex or did they simply not ask or want it?” I had one boyfriend who thought that giving oral was gross though based on what I’ve read I think he’s probably in a minority. I saw a poll on a dating site (if it can be believed) that suggested more men like to give oral more than women do on average. Some religions seem to be opposed to oral sex though I would think that would apply to giving and receiving… Read more »
“Your comment about the ability to set limits=power is fascinating. It suggests a different interpretation of the passive/dominate dichotomy. I like it.”
It’s a theory born out of BDSM culture, really, and it works. I don’t have any specific links for you, but if you’re interested in reading more about it I suggest looking up some positive books about kink.
Vagina’s are beautiful, I can’t blame them:P. Though I do like all of a woman, as addictive as the lotus flower can be her eyes are still a major focus. Then there is the non-visual elements such as personality, enjoying time together, etc.
I think this is a good point. I didn’t learn to enjoy receiving oral sex until I was in my 30’s. In my 20’s, I usually refused to let boyfriends give me oral sex as I found the experience very embarrassing and I could never get an orgasm that way. Another thing is that I’ll sometimes offer a blowjob to my boyfriend because he’s horny and I’m not in the mood for sex, e.g. during my period (I know some women say they get horny during their periods, but I don’t!) He loves getting the BJ and I can get… Read more »
Don’t have to answer this but do you mind telling us why it was embarrassing? I am quite interested in body image, insecurity, embarrassment etc as a way of understanding people and I have a big desire on learning how to help others with it and avoiding triggers for people. I personally think it’s a great trait to have if you work at helping your partner become more comfortable so they can experience more pleasure and hopefully better overall self-esteem. I’ve talked to women who hated how their vulva looks and it has really bothered me that they feel so… Read more »
@Archy, well I was pretty insecure about my body at that age. I didn’t have a positive attitude toward my “ladybits.” I was always worried that things smelled bad down there, that I was messy (not too get too graphic, but lubrication has never been a problem for me!), and that it looked weird “down there.” So I had trouble enjoying it. It was only when I got older that I started thinking, “What the hell, this feels good!” I’m 45 now and sex is the best it’s ever been, actually.
Glad to hear it has changed and many guys like “messy”.
Lisa, thanks for writing. At the risk of being unfair, your article and comments suggest an absolutely gynocentric perspective of the gender binary, a perspective that I and many believe will ultimately limit and even retard the progression of all persons towards a truly egalitarian society. Wondering if you can clarify what role you believe men have to play in your understanding of feminism? Do you believe the unique and gendered burdens and inequities men experience now and historically can be served by your understanding of feminism? Alternatively, do you believe an independent movement that advanced the interest of men… Read more »
All I know is that a man who is a feminist believes in women’s equality in the workplace and the home. Even women who work more hours and make more money than men do now still wind up doing the bulk of the childcare and housework, except for a very few cases. At this point that’s an issue. There are others. Men who consider themselves feminists will understand that white male privilege allows them leeway and they will do what they can to make sure that women can get some of that power. Men writing on this site have called… Read more »
ht tp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2084582,00.html Seems men and women contribute near equally to the household? If you want to put women working more unpaid hours on the table, I’ll call and raise the stakes with the workplace injuries n deaths which are nearly all male. I hear about how women do all of this unpaid work and how they spend more time than men per week working paid and unpaid, care to show any stats? Also it’d be helpful to show stats on energy expenditure, eg, highly physical jobs in the outdoors for the hot climates such as roofers here in my country… Read more »
“Even women who work more hours and make more money than men do now still wind up doing the bulk of the childcare and housework, except for a very few cases.” I need to speak up, as a man who comprises one of those very few cases you refer to. My wife makes more than I do, and its because she is better at it than me (we are in the same field) and she is more driven to achieve success at work. We put in the same hours and her pay does not dwarf mine by any means, but… Read more »
Why wouldn’t it be feminist? I daresay that back in the dark ages an arrangement like this would have been as rare as hen’s teeth. It sounds like you and your wife have worked out a great arrangement for both of you and you are fortunate. But I wonder if, without feminism, it would have even been possible to arrange such a thing? I suppose that is a question we can’t completely answer, but I do know that with feminism women have felt able to ask for what they want in ways my mother’s generation never could. I still think… Read more »
Right sorry I’ve not been in much today for replies, but I’d like to comment on this. Yes, feminism has done great things…but it’s got to keep changing. It already has done…feminism today doesn’t look the same as feminism in the 1920s, or the 1960s, etc. I just think it’s important to recognize the failings and limitations of feminism, and then move on from there.
“I wonder if, without feminism, it would have even been possible to arrange such a thing?” I think it would be possible. I would not say I’ve been raised with any kind of emphasis that sought to reinforce gender equality or feminism. I’m only 31 so perhaps I’m an indirect product of that social environment. But it’s not that my wife and I have pre-negotiated this arrangement, it just kind of happened by virtue of our gradual discovery of what our particular skills best applied to in daily life. She is better with money and pays the bills, manages our… Read more »
@John Gottman … Something that stood out for me in what you said is that it wasn’t prenegotiated. The two of you naturally grew into your roles and I think that’s cool. Thinking back on my 38 years of marriage, I can honestly say the same. It just happen. Maybe if people (couples) were to not over think things, maybe they too would do the same. Just let it happen and not be influenced by what society thinks they should be doing. In so far as cooking, men are GREAT cooks. In our house, the kitchen was the focul point… Read more »
Thanks for your response, you’re answer and non-answer alike are extraordinarily informative and I must say, galling. If your views are representative of your movement, and I know a few feminists would distance themselves from them, it appears the movement’s interest in men is limited to their utility as vehicles for advancing the movement’s agenda. If I understand you correctly, your movement ostensibly seeks to liberate women under the gender binary while, without a hint of irony, reinforcing the historic gender script for men as empty vessels valued for their utility and not persons respected as ends in their own… Read more »
Thanks for your responses, they are extraordinary informative. If your views are representative of your movement (and I know not all feminists are in monolithic agreement) it appears the movement’s interest in men is limited to their utility as vehicles for advancing the movement’s agenda. If I understand you correctly, feminism ostensibly seeks to liberate women under the gender binary while, without a hint of irony, treating men as empty vessels whose value is suspended until he makes himself useful as a means to an end, rather than a person valued as an end in his own right. How can… Read more »
Moderator, Well that’s kind of the point. If you asked David Duke if he was a member of a hate group, he would say no. He would say his group celebrates the achievements of white people and advances their interest. And while explaining this he would drop a few choice statements like “itâs great that white people earn most college degrees”, “..the inequities facing non-whites? I don’t understand the question” and generally scapegoat non-whites as the source of his groups’ problems. How a group gets to that point is pretty much what I outlined above, you obstinately deny the existence… Read more »
Lisa, Ahh, but you are asking for our respect. By writing here, and advocating for the change you mention in the article, you ARE asking to be respected. And you need to give respect to get respect. There is a lot to discuss here, not to mention the gratuitous remark about my being a prude and my daughter a libertine which is about the farthest thing from the truthâŚbut no matter. I never said anything about you or your daughter. I was talking about Erica Jong and her daughter, the post, and the changes in perspective mainstream Feminism has about… Read more »
I never said anything about you or your daughter. I was talking about Erica Jong and her daughter, the post, and the changes in perspective mainstream Feminism has about sex. But I wasnât talking about you personally. So no need to get defensive. –You certainly alluded to it with his sentence: your opener “For some reason Iâm reminded of the dynamic between Erica Jong and her daughter, Molly Jong-Fast, only in this case it appears that the mother is the prude, and the daughter is the libertine.” So don’t be coy. I know nothing of the slut walks being racists… Read more »
Lisa, So donât be coy. Not being coy. I’m being honest. I know nothing of the slut walks being racists or using signs with the N word. If that is true, then it is horrible. I donât understand why that would happen. This is obvious. I suggest you Google the practice, and perhaps read up on how Black women have reacted to the entire notion of Slutwalks. As to why it happens, it happens because being Feminist does not stop someone from being a racist. I donât think my privilege is nearly what yours is That’s funny, because a lot… Read more »
You know, Zek. I don’t think engaging in a dialogue with you any more is constructive. You clearly don’t like anything I have to say, think me racist, privileged, out of touch, think I am “suspicious”” of young men and women engaging in sexual acts…. etc. etc. Short of writing a completely different piece, there will be no way to please you or to convince you I am not completely worthless as a writer in this instance. That’s ok. This piece has touched a lot of people very positively. It has also, obviously, because it strikes a chord, pissed some… Read more »
Lisa, You know, Zek. I donât think engaging in a dialogue with you any more is constructive. You clearly donât like anything I have to say … Short of writing a completely different piece, there will be no way to please you or to convince you I am not completely worthless as a writer in this instance. Actually I liked some of the things you’ve said, but sadly the things I take issue with are far more damaging than the ways in which we agree. You don’t need to write a completely different piece, nor is this about “winning” anything.… Read more »
Zek. Damaging? To whom? To what? To your opinion of me gained by reading this article and not approving of it? You know nothing about me, my life, what I’ve done, who I am, what measure I have taken to mitigate the privileges with which I have grown up (and they are far from as extensive as you think). You don’t think I am self -aware? That’s an easy judgment. You do’n’t think I understand gender issues? That’s a blanket indictment. And yet you insist this is a dialogue. It isn’t. I’m more than twice your age and have lived… Read more »
I see nothing of a personal attack in his post to you, Lisa. I do see here that you are coming very close to calling him egotistic and shallow, and patronizing which I would think comes close to an attack back at him. This thread is getting very heated and we’ll be moderating it heavily.
Ah, here is the comment. There is a lot to discuss here, not to mention the gratuitous remark about my being a prude and my daughter a libertine which is about the farthest thing from the truth…but no matter. I am not in agreement with sexlessness…..that is all I need to say about that. As for your not understanding how the Republican War on Women has everything to do with what we have gained and what we might lose….I don’t know how to try and explain it. We don’t want to go backwards but when we have to keep fighting… Read more »
For some reason I’m reminded of the dynamic between Erica Jong and her daughter, Molly Jong-Fast, only in this case it appears that the mother is the prude, and the daughter is the libertine. Historically, Feminism was extremely sex-positive for women, encouraging them to have sex (like a man?) and be free to own it. Now, those same Feminists have gotten older and suddenly sex is no longer encouraged. Now sex is slavery. Now sex is patriarchal. I think specifically of Daphne Patai, who writes about how “contemporary feminism is poisoned by a strong element of “heterophobia”: a pronounced hostility… Read more »
I can relate to the feeling of seeing sex as harmful and patriarchal. I was hardly aware of it when I was younger but I just had a general feeling that sex was bad for women and had a lot of anxiety about “submitting” to sexual intercourse as though it would compromise my sense of self. Sex was something bad for women, something I shouldn’t be interested in because that would hurt me. It has taken me a long time to get over that upbringing but I am glad to be able to give and receive sex without feeling like… Read more »
I am glad you are happy in your sexuality. Most feminists don’t think sex is bad for women…. but like any movement there are differences of opinion. I certainly don’t think sex is bad for women at all. As long as they are conscious of its complexity. But then men should also be conscious of that, too. Sex doesn’t exist in a vacuum, as much as some people would like it to.
HA HA HA HA HA!!!
Sorry, your comment “Most feminists donât think sex is bad for women” is so crazy I have to laugh.
“Most feminists” think men are rapists.
“Most feminists” think intercourse is rape.
“Most feminists” see men as the Evil Other.
99% of the feminists I’ve met hate men. You can claim it’s not the majority, but my experience refutes the hell out of that.
Moderators note: Generalising feminism, or other groups, in such terms is discouraged. If you take issue with specific feminists or feminist groups please refer to them.
Dude you just can’t understand how pathetically you sound. Its people on both sides of the issue that have ridiculously ignorant views about equality. Equality and sexual roles is really everything in a nutshell. Believe me everyday I deal with these issues as a male nurse. I have had charge nurses to ask me if I had problems with taking orders from a woman. I’m trying to be nice and just say yes; when I’m thinking if I did have problems I wouldn’t have taken the first class of CNA training let alone go any farther. In case your wondering… Read more »
âDude you just can’t understand how pathetically you sound.â Really? But, let me guess, the below generalization of males isnât pathetic, is it? âYou see female doctors actually do something that most male doctors don’t; they LISTEN!!!â So, thatâs not the least bit sexist, is it? âIn case youâre wondering yes I am a feminist.â Shocker. Would NEVER have guessed. As a result of that ideological indoctrination, making negative generalizations about men such as most males âdonât LISTENâ is perfectly acceptable, but claiming that one most female doctors are âtoo emotional would be sexist. This is the kind of ideological… Read more »
My male doctors listen and have been excellent, it’s interesting to see a comment on equality with some blatant sexism in it….
Agemaki writes: ” I was hardly aware of it when I was younger but I just had a general feeling that sex was bad for women and had a lot of anxiety about âsubmittingâ to sexual intercourse as though it would compromise my sense of self. Sex was something bad for women, something I shouldnât be interested in because that would hurt me.” Strangely this parallels a lot of writing from pickup artists. It is said that every time a woman has casual meaningless sex she loses a little bit of her soul. She leaves the act feeling devalued. Pickup… Read more »
You’ve made a number of good points here, Zek, but one in particular should be re-emphasized:
Women don’t get to define what makes a good man. Men do.
PS The truth is that biologically women DO seek relationships and men seek to sow their seed as far and wide as possible. Women historically raise the children born of that seed sowing. I don’t think we are going to change a biological imperative by merely getting it off with every cute guy we see. And, by the way, I don’t think that is desirable. I certainly don’t think one has to be in a committed or even monogamous marriage (monogamy is another thing that peters out after the 4 years it takes to historically wean a child). Feminism isn’t… Read more »
GMP Mod here. This thread is getting filled with generalizations without cites, tone is getting hostile at time between author and commenters both, and we are just noting it. Please focus on critique of arguments and not of people, cite sources and make a good faith attempt not to throw generalizations around.
Hi, Moderator… a comment showed up on my email but I can’t find it here…. is it being held for some reason?
In my opinion, this opinion depicts the feminist anxiety that sexual liberation has somehow lowered the value of women in sexual market place. The oversupply of female sexuality has depressed its market value and they cannot gain much in exchange from men for it. The following sentence of opinion piece shows it quite clearly:
“All of those things can be ultimate gains for women, but not if those gains costs her her soul, not if sex becomes the only fight worth marching for.”
That sentence says nothing of the sort. Any exchange value of sex for….whatever (do you mean money) would have nothing to do with a woman losing her soul. I am fully aware that there are many women who still look to marry rich, that there are women who literally sell their bodies for money. I am also aware that lots of men think all women are golddiggers when I personally don’t know of one. I do not think of sex as a commodity. I do think that if we don’t realize the repercussions of casual sex then it can wreak… Read more »
The only thing that I can make out of this opinion piece is that the author has problem with girls giving oral sex to boys without expecting anything in return and their complicit willingness to be submissive to a boyâs desire.
Lisa I would be really interested in your expanding on the sentence, “the kind of meaningless sex with men that men had been having with us for eons.” It’s just the kind of sweeping generalization that frankly has gotten me put to the firing squad more than once on both sides of the gender divide. The idea of this site is actually to try to get underneath what is going on to come to a healthier, better understanding of what it means to be a man. While I am sure it’s true that some men have had meaningless sex, and… Read more »
Anecdotal evidence is just that. Anecdotal. I, too have raised two kids to adulthood: a boy and a girl. Their experiences are very different. My daughter tells me that all the boy she knows want sex right away whether there is the possibility of a relationship or not. They seem to think that the sex comes first. My son has had several long-term relationships and would like another. But I know that that is not all the sex he has had. I think we can look at the typical. Just because you don’t relish the easy hook-up doesn’t mean a… Read more »
I think you think I am younger than I am. I am pushing 50. Anyhow that helps some. I am with you that broad statistics and trends are important and helpful. I would just note that even talking about “feminism” has it’s perils, as does “men in general”, since the meaning is so broad that it becomes mis-interpreted. In the end what we have tried to do is focus as much as is humanly possible on individual stories of men, and women in relation to men, to come at the widest possible definition of “goodness” when it comes to dads,… Read more »
Hmmmm. Pushing 50 could easily mean you are 45:) As for talking about feminism having its perils, well, talking about racism has its perils, too, as does talking about class issues, so should we discuss none of them? Feminism was born with the desire of women to have the vote, a very simple thing too long denied. Then, God forbid, we wanted ways to control the number of babies we had, and then, well, we wanted to work and get paid properly for it. We didn’t wish to be put into boxes by a patriarchal society and so we marched.… Read more »
I am for talking about race and class, and do so frequently. I will admit that the last time I tried to talk about feminism the world got pretty crazy on me, but I am always game for another try at things I fail to do well. I am for the right of women to vote, control their bodies in terms of reproductive rights, get paid equally, and to not be put into boxes. I guess I would just add that I really don’t want to be put into a box as a male either.
I am not trying to put you in a box. Honest.
BTW, did you read that link I sent you? I would think it would be of interest to you and the men on this site, but who knows? I could be wrong.:)
Einstein said that if you’re not failing, then you’re not trying something new.
I certainly agree with that and have spent a good part of my life living it.
Tom I agree with you on this.
@Lisa, I’m not trying to start a fight here, it just that I find it offensive that it is assumed that as a man, I am primarily interested in meaningless sex. A world were I can get easy sex with a number of attractive women is no utopia for me. I’d rather a healthy relationship that is satisfying and where sex is not used for manipulation.
Just letting you know how I feel – maybe some other guys feel the same.
Tom I agree with you on this.
“@Lisa, Iâm not trying to start a fight here, it just that I find it offensive that it is assumed that as a man, I am primarily interested in meaningless sex. A world were I can get easy sex with a number of attractive women is no utopia for me. Iâd rather a healthy relationship that is satisfying and where sex is not used for manipulation.
Just letting you know how I feel â maybe some other guys feel the same.”
@John Gottman A and Tom, I feel the same
We have had a blog post on 50 shades of gray which got the ball rolling this topic, which is how it is that straight women seem to find such sexually explicit material as energizing as they apparently do by the sales and discussion of that book. A male reader sent along this piece and suggested we publish it. Like all else published on GMP, it is one point of view. We are happy to publish opposing views on why the hows and whys of female sexuality as it relates to men. Just because we published this one doesn’t mean… Read more »
Hmmm. Don’t think I want to fall in the 50 shades category. And I think this piece is on a different topic.I like reading good erotica as much as the next woman, but I wonder why such badly written stuff is so popular. As a writer, I wish that weren’t so. I understand the appeal of reading about certain subjects, I just wish, for example, women would read Anais Nin, who writes like a dream. Oh well.
I do thank, Tom, though, for expanding the readership of this, whether he agrees or not:)
I’m having troubles trying to figure out how this relates to men or being a good man. Seems to me this is just another feminist attack piece on republican’s and their policies, and isn’t even related to how those policies affect guys.
I have a great deal to say on this piece, but until I know how this fits in with the GMP, I’ll reserve those comments.
Well, I guess you will have to take that up with Tom. If you don’t think this is a discussion worth having between men and women, then that’s your call. A lot of men feel differently.
@ Mark Neil
“Iâm having troubles trying to figure out how this relates to men or being a good man”
My thoughts also. If the article was directed at men, I could see the connection, but it seems to be directed at women. I don’t think it was a wasted read and it’s good for men to be aware of things that women feel is important to them.
Sorry, I don’t buy it. If Equality is Marxist then I am okay with that.
But what you don’t seem to see is that your preconceived notions of equality have no basis in reality. You assumed what equality would look like, and then when reality didn’t match your assumption you don’t question yourself, you question reality.
Until you admit that your own assumptions could be at fault there’s no reasoning in your argument: it has become tautological, and we should treat it just as we treat other tautologies (you know, like Intelligent Design or 9/11 Conspiracy Theories…)
Hmmmm. Feminism as a conspiracy theory. Interesting. Weird. Very weird. But interesting. Until the last century, women were essentially chattel, property, disposable. In some parts of the world they still are. Two out of three people sold into sexual slavery are female. My assumption (not mine alone, by the way, but one shared by more people than, say, the usual conspiracy theory) is that feminism means equality in all areas of life. Not SAMENESS. Women and men are different. But equality under the law. I have here made a suggestion that, since we still don’t have that equality, we might… Read more »
Lisa, First, way to go about not refuting feminism-as-tautology. I’ll assume you’ve ceded the point. Second, the real problem with your argument is the ignorance of objective reality. We live in a world where the majority of college degrees go to women. The majority of graduate degrees also go to women. Women in their twenties out earn their male counterparts. And according to you we should ignore all of this because “Girl Power” is “hokum” that doesn’t meet expectations that were dreamt up over 40 years ago? At a certain point you need to consider the possibility that the old… Read more »
Moderator’s Note-Edited People who say someone needs to accept something don’t really want to have a discussion; they just want to be right. You are not right. The fact that more women than men get degrees now and feel that they can pursue any career they wish is a good thing. But look at Tom who, in his comment, dismisses women’-owned companies…. In other words, feminism is a process. It is not complete by a long shot and Republican congressmen who want to throw women back into the dark ages show that. As do many of the comments on articles… Read more »
“The fact that more women than men get degrees now and feel that they can pursue any career they wish is a good thing.” Wait a tick…the same number of women and men aren’t getting degrees…more women than men are. I think that means we gotta look at see whether we’re perhaps focussing our education on closing a gap that doesn’t exist any more. I mean obviously, statistically, it’s never going to be completely 50/50…but if more women are getting degrees then clearly that’s one aspect of feminism where we can back off now. “The fact that we have made… Read more »
Um. I said MORE women get degrees…..
What do you think the legitimate criticisms are? I am interested.
And I do think that the ire comes from more than just traditionally-minded people. I think it comes from a lot of people because it is a major upheaval, feminism, like the civil rights movement was for Afro-Americans and like the marriage quality issue is for gay men and women. It represents a huge societal change. Which is why it scares people.
“I said MORE women get degrees.” Yeah I phrased what I was trying to say badly. What I was saying was that feminism is a fight for equality, and yet women are earning more degrees…an indicator that with regards to education, feminism has either achieved it’s goals or gone overboard. Anyway, as to some legitimate criticisms of feminism: Well for some issues, by focusing on women feminism has ended up ignoring and marginalizing men who face similar issues. The biggest example of this I can think of would be male victims of domestic and sexual violence. Yes, part of the… Read more »
Well stated, Heather.
Ii think your points about feminism are good ones, Heather. Not the subject of my article but certainly things to think about. I do think we did a disservice in not including men initially re domestic violence. Although the statistics overwhelmingly show that more women than men suffer from this. I worked with abused women for more than a dozen years, starting in the early 80s when the police didn’t take it a bit seriously. I am glad there are now laws so that they have to. The middle eastern women question is very complicated but i do appreciate the… Read more »
Well now I’m on my phone so this’ll no short, but I’ll come back tomorrow and expand on it. Though the points I mentioned aren’t directly related to your article, they are sort of related. When I read your article, I got the feeling that it was placing stereotypically feminine aspects of sex above stereotypically masculine ones. Which is another Of my criticism of some versions of feminism.
I’m not even sure we can say women suffer overwhelmingly from domestic violence anymore, with just psychological abuse the stats were around 50% of each gender if I remember correctly. There clearly has either been a major increase of DV against men or simply more men and/or less women reporting it. Studies also vary in physical domestic violence, CDC was 33% female, 28% male victims if I remember correctly and others show near equal levels with a large amount being reciprocal violence. There was some degree of difference with more injuries to females due to strength differences, however both still… Read more »
Domestic violence is not a gender issue. Surveys find that men and women assault one another and strike the first blow at approximately equal rates. Besides, the conclusions drawn from many of the published statistics on DV are correlated to the gender and political affiliation of the authors. And there is Erin Pizzey, the original refuge for battered women who has consistently denied DV as a gender issue. (Archer, J. (2000). Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review. Psychological Bulletin, 126 (5), 651-680. Dutton, D., Kwong, M., & Bartholomew, K. (1999). Gender differences in patterns of relationship… Read more »
In terms of the historical aspect, there is book by Dorothy Ko called Cinderella’s Sisters that re-examinations the practice of foot-binding in China. Rather than taking the usual approach that these women were being forcibly debilitated, she argues that the practice could not have existed without the active participation of women, and that women had much to do with the changing fashions of foot-binding (changing the shape of the foot through different binding methods, creating different kinds of shoes). I’m currently working on a research project wherein I examine the notion that women diarists in pre-modern Japan were devoid of… Read more »
Good points Agemaki,
I would add at the same time in China boys were routinely castrated to become eunuchs, while men were castrated as punishment (for non-sexual crimes)
Yet castration generates less outrage than foot binding!
How worthless is manhood?
“”The fact that more women than men get degrees now and feel that they can pursue any career they wish is a good thing.” The satisfaction in this statement is evidence that the feminist movement overall is not an equality movement. Men and boys are only visible if they are percieved to have an advantage. When they are passed by and left in the dust, they become invisible and irrelevant. And while it’s clearly a hopeless cause to try to change the movement overall, Heather’s comments show that there are some that ID as feminists that seem to be trying… Read more »
Frankly I don’t want anyone to not have an opportunity to be educated. I do know that there are many programs to try and steer minority men into higher education because minority women, like white women, go on to college in higher proportion I support that. A lot. But just because women have begun to see the value in getting an education doesn’t mean that we aren’t an equality movement. Just as the civil rights movement focused on empowering black men and women but also, with new laws on poverty, also helped poor white men and women rise up. Equality… Read more »
I never said that you donât want anyone to have an opportunity to be educated. I canât know what someone else wants or doesnât want. However, the statement you made reveals a very familiar attitude within feminism of indifference about males being on the short end of inequality, no matter how unequal it becomes, as long as females advance. Is the goal a zero-sum gain for women? There is no evidence that it is not. If the feminist movement was truly about equality, then it would be openly and actively working to increase the participation of minority males in higher… Read more »
Eric M. writes: “If the feminist movement was truly about equality, then it would be openly and actively working to increase the participation of minority males in higher education and high school graduation, for that matter.” Or if feminists really were concerned about all victims of sexual violence then at least 1 feminist org would have talked about Sharon Osbournes mocking a man who’s penis was cutoff and thrown in a garbage disposal by his wife (apparently because he wanted a divorce). Sharon Osbourne said that the idea (that a man was mutilated and his penis destroyed) was ‘delightful’ and… Read more »
@Lisa, I am a man, so from your perspective I’m sure my opinion means nothing, but here’s my two cents anyway. In the time when women were allegedly treated like chattel men were being hung for the various offenses committed by their wives, going to debtor’s prison because their wives spent too much money. At the time when you say woman had it so horribly men were dying in coal mines, in factories and in many repressive situations, all so that their wives would not have to work. What we see now is for the first time something closer to… Read more »
“In the time when women were allegedly treated like chattel men were being hung for the various offenses committed by their wives, going to debtorâs prison because their wives spent too much money. At the time when you say woman had it so horribly men were dying in coal mines, in factories and in many repressive situations, all so that their wives would not have to work. It looks like women are struggling, just like men have been for hundreds of years.” Eh…now you’re oversimplifying history to suit your narrative. Men weren’t going to work just to suit the whims… Read more »
Chicago, NEVER start a sentence like that. If you read the article AND the comments you will see that I respect men a lot. And if I didn’t care what they said i wouldn’t have allowed Tom to reprint my article here. I think Heather answered you well. She points out many truths. You might also note that in divorce men got the children, that men could divorce their wives for infidelity but women could not do the same. If men supported their wives it was so that the wives could raise the children and keep the house, but too… Read more »
Lisa, it’s interesting because you seem to be refuting yourself.
Specifically, you write:
“People who say someone needs to accept something donât really want to have a discussion; they just want to be right.”
Yet your argument from the piece forward is simply “This is what feminist thought is, and everyone needs to accept it.”
In your own words, you are not right.
This piece uses the same bankrupt logic that feminism and other marxist-derivative thought has always depended upon. Marxist-derivative thought is based on the idea that oppressor-oppressee is the default description of any relationship, and that it should therefore be a jumping off point for analysis. Put simply: there is no reason to accept this assumption. Indeed, the most basic application, that the employer-employee relationship is really just oppressor-oppressee, has been demonstrated as incorrect by empirical evidence dating back to the 1980s, and demonstrated consistently since then. The entire inquiry into principal-agent problems within Game Theory has produced mountains of evidence… Read more »
I wonder why more girls would be giving oral to boys than vice versa? I had a boyfriend who was less interested in sex in general than I was though he liked to receive oral. He was the more passive and I was the more active and he seemed to prefer things that way. I would have liked for him to take a more active role though I did (and do) enjoy giving oral. I love hearing the little gasps of pleasure. My current boyfriend likes to give as well as receive and I prefer this dynamic as it feels… Read more »
I don’t know the answer to your first question. I am still amazed that the comments on this site are focusing on oral sex. I guess that is such an INTERESTING topic, while more broad sexuality discussions are not.
Come on Solod, as a former journalist, Its more than just a little disingenuous to comment at length on the subject in your article and then feign surprise when people read it and react to it.
“The still complicit willingness to be submissive to a boyâs desire isnât what I had hoped would be a benefit of the sexual revolution.” Now wait just a minute…performing oral sex does not automatically equal being submissive. If I’m going down on a woman you wouldn’t say that I’m being submissive to her. Actually, what’s really flippin bizarre is that in a stereotypical lesbian relationship, the woman who is performing oral sex could be considered the ‘top,’ and the dominant one. (Not like really in practice…I’m just talking about the stereotypes). I think we gotta look at why oral sex… Read more »
Amen, Heather. Lots of teens perform oral and anal to avoid pregnancy. Lots because they like it. Some because it’s a pressure. Just like all of life. But oral does NOT have to equal some D/s play.
Nah. You’re not allowed to think that. It doesn’t fit the script. You know, the script? Right? The one where… Eh, do I even need to say it out loud?
Surely by now we all know the source of every ill and every problem in the lives of modern women. I don’t think I need to say it do I?
For the record, I love going down on my Sweetie! Her screams of delight are the finest music to my ears! And then when she whips out the Lelo, well…
đ
Happy times! Happy times!
And oral sex was just a tiny part of this article. Focusing on consenting oral sex between consenting adults is a different animal.
I pointed out that particular sentence because it sort exemplifies the general theme of this article…or at least what stuck out to me. It seemed like this article was suggesting that anything except ‘vanilla’ sex within the confines of a long-term relationship was somehow a bad thing.
Wow. You got that? That only vanilla sex within a long-term relationship was recommended. I don’t see how. My own sexual history is within that piece and I said no such thing at all. Nothing of the kind.
Sentences like this: “Sex, for the women of my daughterâs generation, has too often meant the kind of pleasure that was once reserved for more intimate relationships.” And: “Televisions shows about women being casually sexual and pornographic novels being optioned for the movies fall in line: they are the big news. Thatâs unfortunate.” And: “but we also need to remember that what we didnât fight for was the right to behave as badly as men.” There’s an underlying theme that casual, unattached sex is somehow a masculine thing, and that it’s a bad thing. Perhaps long-term wasn’t a good word…but… Read more »
I would suggest reading the article, but it appears that you have leapt to a one sided, ‘ see what you want to see’ approach the first time round. I can’t see that reading it again will change that. She states:
” I applaud the idea that women can be sexual beings outside of marriage; that they donât have to be afraid of their own sexuality as my mother was afraid of hers. I even applaud the right to have meaningless sex if one so chooses”
take from that what you will.. as you have evidently done.
Right, I’m not saying I thought the article was pushing for sex within marriage. I’m not even saying that the article was pushing that women shouldn’t be allowed to have meaningless sex. I’m saying this article seems to push the idea that sex outside of an intimate relationship (i.e. casual sex) is somehow a bad thing and that it’s something women shouldn’t want to do. It (plus the subsequent comments) also seem to suggest that casual sex is somehow a masculine way of looking at sex, whereas sex inside a relationship is a more feminine way of looking at sex.
Slee: I see Lisa *supporting* women choosing the sex that’s best for them, while at the same time making a personal (non-politicized, non-declaratory) *personal* lamentation that women are becoming hound-dogs just like men and having more meaningless sex. I think the snippets that Heather pulls out is pretty evident of this. I agree with Heather’s comment about giving oral sex = being submissive. It may be that the latest generation of girls are much less repressed and truly enjoy it. I enjoy going down on my wife. Far from being submissive, it really puts the person performing it into the… Read more »
Sigh. I really don’t get why some of you insist on parsing the oral sex thing as you do. What I said, and it was clear, apparently, to tons of other people, is that girls going down on boys without reciprocity has become quite common. Not only that but the girls don’t think that that is sex. I never said casual sex is BAD sex…just that it has repercussions that are often, for young people, not felt until much much later. And I said that I hoped it wasn’t the biggest takeaway from feminism. I think there is a deliberate… Read more »
I guess I would ask if you also think that men goind down on women is or can be submissive. If not (or if you think it’s much less likely) then I guess I would ask why. I see a lot of feminists seem to be the ones who are in the closet with carrying some very strong gender stereotypes. Women going down on men: submissive. Men going down on women: empowering and positive for both partners. This is an idea that Heather distilled with her excerpts quite well. When women have sex w/out emotional attachment (like men) that is… Read more »
thanks, slee. And Heather… I have had the most mind-bending not even close to vanilla sex of my life, in my 50s and in relationships. I don’t know what kind of sex you have but, frankly, the one-night-stand stuff I did wasn’t nearly as much fun as the stuff I have had with a longer term partner. It doesn’t even come close. There IS something to knowing more about a person than that he’s hot and wants you. That seems, to me, the easy part. I don’t want young girls to get caught up in expectations that are unrealistic. I… Read more »
Again, I’m not saying that sex within a relationship is somehow not as good as a one-night-stand. What I’m saying is that both have their merits…and that we shouldn’t place a higher value in society on one or the other.
“That seems, to me, the easy part. I donât want young girls to get caught up in expectations that are unrealistic.”
Could you maybe unpack this statement a bit? I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here? Unrealistic expectations about what? About what men will want? About what they should want?
I think men can dress as they please. And I think that other question/comment has no place in this discussion.
Actually Lisa, despite your generosity, men have severe restrictions on what they can wear. In many workplaces men are forced to wear a suit and tie with black shoes – even in hot weather. In other workplaces men need to wear protective clothing (one reason women are reluctant to work there). Socially, my experience is that men will receive criticism and be ostracized for dressing outside the norm. If a man goes to the wrong place at the wrong time he can be beaten to a pulp simply because of what he is wearing.
Here, you and I agree, John A. In my butcher days (read shaved head, no make-up, no jewelry except my nose-ring, army trousers and a man’s t-shirt), I often got heckled by people….but I never feared for my physical safety. Case in point: when I was in Egypt I dressed butch enough that I was mistaken for a man a couple times, but when people found out I was a woman nothing bad happened. Sometimes I got some weird looks, but no one threatened me. If I’d been a man dressing as a woman, I’d probably have ended up beaten… Read more »
When i read your first sentence, I thought you were going to discuss the dress code of the meat precessing industry. Then I realized you meant adjective, not noun.
@Heather ⌠I disagree with you about the dress code. Having been in the corporate world I have personally experienced harsh dress codes. Suites are the business norm in that world and I should also add the attire went all the way to the socks they wore. Even where I work now, we just finished our competency tests which included the review of the company policy on dress code. Men are not allowed, even on âdress downâ day (Fridays) men are not allowed to wear any kind of shorts, sleeveless shirts or open sandals. Women have far more flexibility where… Read more »
@ Tom B At my job, men can’t wear sweaters even if your job requires you to unload trucks on the heated docks in the wintertime. The heat coming from the vents doesn’t help with the cold air blasting through the dock doors. I’m not sure how much their willing to enforce it now, since they tried and stopped when they realized I would eventually file a discrimination complaint. If you can prove a dress code constitutes a hardship on one gender, but not the other, you can file a discrimination complaint with the EEOC. At work, I have a… Read more »
Um Tom (and John)…I said women’s corporate dress code is more flexible. Actually the word I used was “varied,” but really it’s the same thing. My point was just that it’s not as if women can go to work wearing whatever they want, and men are stuck in suits. It’s more like, men are stuck in suits, and women are stuck in a range of business wear.
No, but they have far more flexiblility. If women were subject to the same restrictions that men are, and men had the same flexility women do, would the feminist Ashley Judd claim that it was sexism?
@HeatherN
You made some good points, but the issue is that men can’t “dress as they please”, which is what Lisa contended. I’m not playing the victim Olympics here – I’m just saying that men and women have social restrictions on how they can dress and behave. So often when feminism complains about restrictions on women, it is blind to complementary (sometimes harsher) restrictions on men. I think you understand this, I don’t think that Lisa Solod does.
The comment i made in a comment about men dressing as they please had to do with women being attacked and raped and harassed while wearing certain clothing and that law enforcement and judges still used a woman’s clothingn to justify those attacks. it had nothing to do with dressing for certain jobs. Almost every job has some sort of dress code for men and women which may feel restrictive but is hardly worth moaning about. And is not at all pertinent to the article I wrote, But then a good many of thre comments are completely off topic.
Excellent summation, Wet One.
I too applaud the “slutwalks” for demonstrating that women can go anywhere and dress however they please without condemnation… and I eagerly await the day that men can do the same.
Quick question: What does Solod think of large black men walking down the street at night near a lone woman? should they be obligated to change their appearance or behavior in order not to upset someone else’s sensibilities?
Thank you for mentioning SlutWalks….and the freedom of girls and women to walk on the streets and subways and public spaces without being harassed, groped, or propositioned….it still happens to me (30 years after I started riding the subways to junior high school!)….I support SlutWalks and iHollaback! and I will be passing out iHollaback! stickers/tchotchkes at my son’s middle school Career Day while talking about my daily experiences at work…it is degrading to still be treated like some Asian prostitute on the street when I am a career professional with multiple degrees (my husband has a the same credentials but… Read more »
I agree with you that everyone should be free to walk in public without being harassed or groped. I’m not sure what being propositioned means to you so I can’t comment. I’m just curious as to whether or not you think Asian prostitutes are less respectable or deserving of less respect than other prostitutes. I’m also curious as to whether or not you think prostitutes in general are less respectable or deserving of less respect than other professions.
I have an idea but not sure if it’s legal. For a woman (or women) that is regularly harassed to have a hidden camera on her when she is in public to show the world what kind of harassing behaviour happens. Where I live I don’t think I’ve ever seen it happen, most of the stuff I see is males harassing mainly males especially when drunk, but I’m not saying harassment of women doesn’t happen, I just don’t see it in my life. It’d be interesting for people like me to get a better understanding of what happens.
@ Archy
I’ve seen it happen to a woman one time. I was walking with a lady friend, who just got her hair done, and as we passed a man, he yelled out, “Hey you with the nice hair.” I immediately turned my head, started stroking my hair, and said oh thank you in my softest voice while fluttering my eyelashes. The guy looked in shock. My lady friend was laughing her butt off and said, “I think he was talking to me.”
Oh that’s nothing…I once had a car full of guys pull up alongside me while I was walking on the sidewalk and invite me to hop in back and blow one of them. This was in the middle of the day, even. I ignored them but the kept following me, so I told them to f**k off, and they still kept following me…I ended up having to walk into a shop, at which point they drove off.
Mind you, that’s rare. I’ve never had anything like that happen to me since then.
Thank GOD for meaningless sex. As for these freely given BJ’s, I missed out. I missed out completely and I lament this fact to this day. Needless to say, I am a man. Meaningless sex certainly had it place back in the day (ages 18 – 35 or so). Sadly, I had almost none of it until I had some career success and money (i.e. marriageable). Such is the fate of males about whom no one gives a damn. One of these days, we’ll read the flipside article of what young men face in this same arena. Today is not… Read more »
Feminism has always been about giving women SPECIAL RIGHTS in the name of equal rights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OdQGbVNa4
It’s just never been politically correct to tell the truth.
That, my friend, is bullshit. Feminism is not about special treatmeng and you know it.
Sorry for the typo…I am on my phone.
Strong argument Lisa.
Do you always choose profanity over a reasoned response, or was this a special occasion?
That was not profanity, and the retort was no less reasoned than the original charge.
Bless your heart! Nick, mostly.
Ok some special rights: Feminists have consistently advocated for laws that privilege women in child custody cases and NOW opposes default joint custody and favors the status quo. Of course the status quo favors women. If feminists were for equal rights or even meant it when they said that men should take care of children then they should not be in favor of always awarding custody to women VAWA only protects women and makes zero provision for men. Of course VAWA was heavily supported by feminists. As mentioned before feminists strongly support rights to enable women to have consequence free… Read more »
“Bless your heart! Nick, mostly.”
So you get attacked and Nick comes to your rescue and you have to bless his heart? Funny I never hear guys blessing each others hearts when they support each other. But I guess when a women needs a man to come to her rescue because she is being attacked then she has to bless his heart.
Another instance of women simultaneously rewarding chivalry and expecting it when they aught not to.
Am I rescuing someone? I totally forgot to don my cape and mask. Could I trouble you to look the other way as I scout out the nearest phone booth?
Incidentally, “bless your heart” is a colloquialism that can be used to convey a positive sentiment or introduce a negative. To wit: Bless her heart, she’s dumb as a stone.
Why yes, I am feeling a bit pedantic this morning.
đ
The word she used is, by definition, profanity. Knock it off.
Profanity.
a. Abusive, vulgar, or irreverent language.
b. The use of such language
Okay, let’s deconstruct what you just wrote there. The word she used to be clear, the word in question is bullshit is, by definition definition of the word bullshit, or the word profanity? [a] profanity. Defining the word profanity doesn’t tell us whether a particular word is profane or not. But the definition you provided isn’t terribly accurate given the origin of the word, and its juxtaposition with the word sacred. Do you understand the distinction between profane, vulgar, and expletive? I’m guessing you don’t, because if you did you’d realize that bullshit, by definition, is vulgar but not profane.… Read more »
@ Nick, mostly I’m fairly certain that Mike was being sarcastic when he said Lisa Solod had a strong argument. He also has a point she didn’t use reason to counter what Sarah said. I’ve communicated with many feminists. I’ve found 2 who support a ban on MGC although they have universally supported the right to bodily autonomy and a ban on FGC. Odd, how bodily autonomy doesn’t extend to men and boys. Look at the FBI definition of rape the adoption of which was pushed by the feminist lobby. It exempts almost every instance where there is a female… Read more »
“These feminists do not call out others when they take misandric positions as being unfeminist so Sarahâs point has validity.”
Well now…except that there are feminists on this very article doing just that.
Indeed there are, Heather. You and I have had a very lively discussion. But I absolutely disagree that feminism is about giving women “special” rights. At its core it is about giving us the same rights enjoyed by men. The same rights that were historically NOT allowed us until one constitutional amendment (voting and by extrapolation land rights). As for rape laws, I absolutely support the inclusion of ALL kinds of rape. I am very glad boys who were abused by clergy and coaches are speaking out. I think women speaking out against rape made that easier for them. But… Read more »
Actually, you were one of the two feminists I was referring to when I spoke about encountering two feminists who support a ban on MGC at least in the U.S. It isn’t so much that there are no feminists that call out others on misandric positions. There is a small minority in my experience of feminists that do. When I’ve done it on feminist boards, my comments have never been supported, but I’ll often see the topic of discussion change. One example was a political discussion on Rick Santorum on feministing. When I logged in I noticed that three of… Read more »
I still have no idea what MGC is. Here are some statistics on rape:http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims Here are some on domestic violence: http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/ The situations are still overwhelmingly female. And be reminded that many victims of rape do not report it and that holds true for domestic violence. I suspect that many men don’t report either… and that isn’t a good thing at all. Nor is it a good thin when women don’t report it. But it is a fact of life. Abuse and rape can be deeply humiliating. It is often hard to speak up about them. I have no doubt… Read more »
MGC = male circumcision. Male Genital Cutting, to be precise. You might also see it referred to as MGM (Male Genital Mutilation).
@ Lisa Solod “The situations are still overwhelmingly female.” That actually depends on the standards you use. “The National Family Violence Survey (NFVS) found nearly equal rates of assault (11â12 percent) by an intimate partner among both men and women. If so-called “minor” violence such as pushing and shoving is excluded, the rate is around 3 percent â more than twice the rate found in NVAWS. The studies that find that women abuse men equally or even more than men abuse women are based on data compiled through the Conflict Tactics Scale (CTS), National surveys supported by NIJ, CDC, and… Read more »
@ Lisa Solod I’m not trying to win the victim Olympics just trying to educate someone I believe means well, but simple has bad information. In the last 12 months there were 1,270,000 rapes and 1,267,000. With the margin for error embedded in any research, the difference is statistically insignificant (Note: emphasis on statistically. No rapes are insignificant). On another thread, I believe it was GirlWrites What or possibly Typhon who found research that men are 4 times as likely to forget a traumatic sexual violation than women. Sorry if I got that wrong, but it would explain a lot… Read more »
Usually rape statistics do not take into account men who are forced to penetrate, or enveloped, only when they are forcibly penetrated. It’s one way you can inflate the percentage of rape victims in favour of women by failing to count the envelopment victims seeing as most sexual abuse of men is done by women via envelopment at least according to the latest cdc statistics.
I have no idea where you got the idea I support a ban on male circumcision. We have never had that discussion and I am not interested in having it here. But please don’t make assumptions one way or the other.
@ Lisa Solod You were not the second feminist. Heather was the first and I believe Jenna was the second if memory serves. I generally operate under the assumption that feminists are hypocritical when considering the rights of men, but I promised Heather and Jasmine that I would attempt to disabuse myself of that tendency and wait until each individual feminist state their position. I suspect that it will make a difference on only the rarest of occasions. Heather and I have had spirited, but civil discussions on these boards before and I must admit that she has made me… Read more »
Wrong.
As hard as you may try, you canât obfuscate that word out of fitting the applicable definition of profanity, âAbusive, VULGAR, or irreverent language.â
Synonyms: curse, expletive, swear word, four-letter word
You may wish to try another angle but it will appear to be even more desperate as it can’t change the facts.
(Apologies if this is a duplicate post – WP seems to have eaten my comment)
http://randommisanthrope.com/2011/04/27/word-of-the-day-obscene-profane-and-vulgar/
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/23102
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/27217/that-which-is-vulgar-obscene-or-profane-title-reflects-contents
I appreciate the entertainment value of the opinions expressed at blogs like mentalfoss.com as much as the next guy, but I’ll stick with professional dictionary lexicographers for definitions and uses of English language words. But, that’s just me.
Y’know, in all this time that Eric and Nick have been arguing the semantics of bull****, no one has actually discussed the questions which brought it up.
Does Feminism seek to give women special rights/treatment? And does Lisa have an argument besides “bull****” to address that?
Just saying.
(Basing this on VAWA which I’ve seen plenty of comments saying it’s gendered and has special treatment for women). I don’t think feminism as a whole wants special treatment, I do think there might be a few who have some power or pull that may want it though. With gendered laws, studies, etc regarding domestic abuse one could argue there is preferential treatment, but that could simply be ignorance in society to the other gender’s issues and measures to protect the group seen as a victim could be seen as special treatment. Eg, if we see DV against females as… Read more »