Many a ballsy broad, Amanda Marcotte argues, is afraid to say ‘Please do this’ or ‘Don’t do that’ in bed. Here’s what some women are really thinking.
Our sexist culture unleashes many forms of toxic socialization on its inhabitants, but few lessons seem to take as well as teaching girls from the cradle to coddle the male ego, not just with flattery but with a deep unwillingness to speak truths that could cause men to feel uncomfortable or imperfect. And nowhere is this less true than in the sack. Many a woman who feels herself a ballsy broad in her daily life finds herself in bed, afraid to say “Please do this” or “Don’t do that” for fear of confronting a man looking shocked, upset, or disappointed—which can push a button installed in us as little girls labeled Failure As A Woman.
We know we should get over it already. We know we should speak up and take our lumps and men who can’t handle it are bad lovers we should be dumping anyway. It’s not like we’re not trying. The female half of the human race spends an ungodly amount of time and money trying to unlearn passivity and replace it with a dose of speaking up for themselves.
In the meantime, however, there’s a number of things women are thinking about sex that tend to go unsaid, but you men should probably know them anyway.
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We can tell when you’re doing something because you saw it in a porno.
Most sex in porn is about what’s good for the camera, not what’s good for the participants in it, especially the women. In fact, many things that look good in porn can keep us from having fun in real-life sex. For instance, in porn the only parts of their 
bodies the actors often touch are their genitals, so that the camera can get a full view of the action. But in real life, sex is more of a whole-body experience, and the genital-only thing can feel cold and masturbatory.
Of course, we know that men know this, and most would deny that they’re doing stuff because it looked good in a porn and not because it felt good in the moment. So we’d rather not bring it up when you do stuff that looks better in porn than it feels in life. We don’t want to argue over whether or not that’s what you’re doing. But when you do something you picked up in a porn that doesn’t add to the real-life pleasure, we take notice and we’re often hoping you get it out of your system so we can move on to activities that are actually fun.
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Endurance is overrated.
It’s not that cultural jokes about two-pump chumps are completely baseless. Women do like having sex, and most of us can point to at least one or two experiences where a man orgasmed as soon as he touched you, and then rolled over and fell asleep while you wondered if that was all you’re going to get. But just because women would prefer intercourse to last more than 60 seconds doesn’t mean that longer is always better. If you consider a point of pride that you can thrust away for an hour without coming, there’s a high chance your partner is lying under you wondering how on earth she can say she’d have liked to wrap it up 40 minutes ago, but is afraid to say anything because she doesn’t want to stomp all over your accomplishments. The vagina’s ability to continue lubricating itself is limited, which can make marathon sex feel more like a duty than a joy.
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Next: Is the “Big O” is more trouble than it’s worth?
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About Amanda Marcotte
Vocalyze
Nice to hear women speaking up. For all the negativity you’ve been known to spew this post is quite refreshing.
blah, blah. whine whine. victim, victim.
You want to talk about coddling ego’s, try going out with women and dealing with their constant need for validation, their sulky little girl manipulations, their impossible ‘prince perfect’ expectations and their narcissistic obsession with their own identity. Worst of all, try dealing with their feminist indoctrinated insistence that they are the powerless victims of, well, everybody else.
If you haven’t got the guts to ask your man for what you want in the bedroom then you have no one to blame but your own lack of self responsibility. Men are genetically, culturally and personally DRIVEN to please you.
Every time a man goes into the bedroom he’s freaking out about whether or not you are going to be happy. He’s walking the fine line between not being too revealing of his fears so that you don’t think he’s a wimp and dump his arse, and not being too macho or insensitiitve so you don’think he’a a Neanderthal and dump his arse. Every one of you is different. Some like it soft and tender, some like it hard, most of you change your mind about how you want it based on your mood at the time. There is nothing a man likes more than good information to work with, so grow up and give the guy a break by not expecting him to be some mind reader.
While your at it, instead of getting your view of men from some ancient Virginia Woolf diatribe – why don’t you actually ASK men how things are in their world. Yeah, you’d have to give up the dyadic power trip that comes with being the righteous victim, but on the positive side you might actually discover that the other half of the human species isn’t actually some conspiracy of pathologically dominating monsters set on being your enemy (though it would appear that you are set on being theirs).
You’ve obviously had a university education, try using your critical thinking faculty to deconstruct your own world view instead of mindlessly repeating a bunch of theories that have no empirical or logical basis to them. It’s ime for women in this society to grow up and take responsibility for their own happiness.
Men, all men, every man ever, no exceptions, are driven to please women eh?
Got any evidence to back up that spectacularly broad assertion?
Like, say, having had sex with 50+ male partners?
Speaking only from my experience (50+ partners, mostly male), I can say that some men are, and some men aren’t. Some men care about nothing but women’s pleasure, and frankly that’s almost as annoying as a man who cares nothing for his partner’s pleasure. I personally have a hard time enjoying sex if I can tell that my partner isn’t getting anything out of it.
Again, I ask: where’s your evidence?
Obviously there is no hard evidence of that, out side of the way that most men behave and the way that most women expect men to serve the interests.
But the rest of his post is great, I think that women have a lot to gain from men that are able to cut through the bullshit and tell it like it is, there is much learning to had from letting women know that it is not the job of men to absorb their neurosis and fears, and this whole fallacy that the male ego is more delicate than the female and that men display the more difficult and insecure behavior in relationships has the be challenged.
There is lots of growth and learning in that post for women.
And do you have any evidence to back up your spectacularly broad assertion that “most women expect men to serve the [sic] interests”?
No, I didn’t think so.
Please explain why on earth anyone should listen to you, or the commenter you are defending, when clearly both of you are talking out of your asses.
“and do you have any evidence to back up your spectacularly broad assertion that “most women expect men to serve the [sic] interests”?”
Yeah it is a broad generalization, but thats generally what I see from in particular feminist women – the expectation that men and society should bend over backwards for them, reserving the right to heap criticism on men while being extremely sensitive about criticism about themselves, shirk responsibility while blaming men for everything and whats more feel entirely to this and cant see there being any problem with having this mentality. Take the article for example, all responsibility goes to men and women are treated like children while the OP and her supporters are both supportive and oblivious.
Adam largely, told it how it is with an increasingly large number of women.
You might Google “confirmation bias”.
I don’t know any women like this. Clearly some of the posters here have an axe to grind — the woman who wrote the article was not criticizing men for their behavior. She was simply saying that men can’t read our minds and we need to speak up, but we are afraid of injuring our partner’s ego.
Defensive much?
Well I think its more likely that you have just rarely heard men being so frank about women and there is much more tip toeing around the female ego, in relationships than the male, and further down the thread I’ve explained why I think the OP is the wrong person to be handing out advice on over coming sexual inhibitions – she promotes victim and rape culture propaganda for political gain which is potentially damaging to the mental health, sex lives and relationships of those exposed to it.
Women do need to take responsibility, blaming the male ego for their own failures to communicate like adults in not taking responsibility.
I really appreciate this article. This passage especially rings true for me:
“Obviously, every woman is different, and even with these most general of guidelines, you’ll find dissenters. Communication between partners is the ideal. But have some sympathy on women who haven’t read enough self-help books or seen enough therapists to overcome their fear of speaking up.”
It’s easy cop out and blame a lack of communication on the other person, especially for guys who have been socialized to expect others to cater to our needs. We’d all do well to remember that efforts to improve communication — especially on topics like this — pay real dividends for both partners, and it’s on guys to put our egos in check to start the process.
I somehow managed to delete my comment, so here’s the shorter version: THANK YOU for making the point about how overrated endurance is. I’m very open when it comes to communicating with a partner, but this is one of those points that I never seem to able to get across. Strangely enough, it’s also one of the few points that all of my girl friends agree on, yet for some reason every time I’ve brought it up with a partner, he’ll react with disbelief. Which might be due to the fact that I try to take a positive approach and I bring it up as a compliment after a shorter session instead of as criticism after a long one, so it sounds more like I’m tending to their ego rather than telling the truth.
Also, YES to more moaning and groaning – feedback is an incredible turn on, yet it always feels strange to bring it up and say you want more of it, because it feels like the sexual equivalent of asking for more compliments.
Yes, thanks indeed for mentioning endurance, especially since the only way for me to last more than five minutes is to go so slowly that she can’t feel anything. If a woman wants a man to last for hours and hours, she should buy him a strap-on and persuade him to wear it.
I have to say, the biggest turn-on for me is when she is clearly appreciating what I am doing. I suspect that this is an empowering feeling for many guys, so I hope women are encouraged to speak up more.
That goes both ways – nothing is more of a mood booster than knowing that your partner is enjoying the sensations they are experiencing – share the pleasure – let me hear you. The exchange of feel good feedback fuels the fire – so how can a woman encourage men to turn up the volume, moan, groan, grunt – let us know you are feelin’ it and you’ll feel me feelin’ you!
Guys if you let us know you are feeling it and freely express it with moans, groans, growls, grunts it sends a message that you are enjoying it and that it is more than ok – it’s encouraged, appreciated and safe to be noisy, expressive. When women feel safe, secure, reassured and protected especially when naked and vulnerable it makes them more inclined to let go because they know that they are safe and the man they are with can handle it.
Excellent! At various times in my life, each of these have been true for me. As I approach 40 at lightning speed, I find I just don’t care as much anymore about coddling feelings and I’ll say, “To the left” or “Gentle” or “harder” or “hope you packed a lunch, dear” or whatever is needed. I’m more willing to propose new things–but that has a lot to do with my partner. My ex had a real madonna/whore complex going on in his head and so while he might seem to enjoy whatever we were doing in the bedroom, I paid for it for days or weeks afterward with a disrespect outside the bedroom that was hurtful and discouraging. I learned to be passive and to not enjoy it as much as I otherwise would have and I did this for 20 years.
Now, I’m with a guy who encourages and ADORES my fantasies and really wants me to share them with him and he never thinks less of me for whatever fantasy I may share–even the ones that I would never actually do in real life. What happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom–there’s no slut-shaming. He enjoys the benefits, better more frequent and satisfying sex, so why in the world…???
Oh! On the other hand from the hard-to-reach-orgasm side, there are those of us who have a very, very easy time reaching orgasm. Just word-to-the-wise, after awhile, it’s not pleasurable anymore. It’s painful. So just because you can get her to orgasm 10 times, doesn’t mean you should. After awhile, especially when we say “enough”, we realize that it’s not about us anymore–it’s about your own ego and bragging rights–for which most of us are not really willing to endure pain. Just sayin’.
Even those of us who do orgasm pretty easily can have times when we don’t, but are still willing and happy to engage in sexual activity. I’ve had to get my partner used to me being okay with that by occasionally simply not orgasming and being fine with it. At first, he seemed to feel almost guilty about it, and I almost felt bad because I don’t want him to feel guilty about sex for any reason, but he seemed to understand pretty quickly that it’s not common, but when it does happen, it’s not the end of the world for me so it shouldn’t be for him either.
I don’t think this article says anything useful about women who enjoy S and M. Because for a masochist, things which are uncomfortable or unpleasurable are often what turns them on/gets them off. Not that they want someone banging away like they are starring in a bad porno, but just that pleasure and pain are very subtly confused/turned around.
The high priority placed on communication and consent by reponsible kinksters makes this a nice little strawman. If you consider the most basic “Do you want to have sex with me?” level of consent as Sexual Communication 101, “Can I tie you up and hit you with things? What kind of things can I use? Is there anything else you’d like me to do while I’ve got you tied up? Are there positions/bondage styles/implements that are absolutely out of the question? How will you let me know when you’ve genuinely had enough and need me to stop?” would be more like an advanced, graduate-level seminar. What Amanda’s writing about here would be, idk, Sexual Communication 205 or thereabouts.
Bex
I don’t think that you understand the level of communication, consent, trust and bonding that is required for BDSM activities and relationships. Marcotte, is discussing sexual communication at a very introductory level – teenagers learning how to play with a clit and thrust properly and tell each other what feels good and what doesn’t.
I know that if you were at a play party with me and you acted the way you’ve come over on this blog, you’d be bounced and banned before you knew what was happening. You actually *are* the dude we warn newbies to avoid.
I’d happily discuss Marcotte’s blind support of a false accusing, child abusing murderer and how hypercritical it is to make a living out of frightening young and vulnerable women with rape culture hysteria and misinformation and so deliberately generating fear of sex and then preaching about how men need to be responsible for women that have fears about sex, with you Bex, and I don’t doubt that you might try to instigate some form of censorship or retribution
…and suddenly I am decidedly UNworried about ever actually encountering you at a play party. Neat!
But never mind that, let’s talk about how I’ve suddenly become my very own government! I had no idea! Screw that censorship nonsense though, I’mma go raise me some TAXES. Party at my place, y’all, we’ll get all socialized medicine and social safety-netted up in here.
I find it hard to believe you are a woman who enjoys BDSM. Poor communication, pretending to like something you hate to soothe your partner’s feelings, and trying dumb things because you saw them in porn are definitely NOT part of BDSM. The idea that masochists just like to be treated like shit and have bad sex is the fantasy of a poor top.
“It’s a clitoris, not an elevator button” = FUCKING PERFECT. XDDDD
In the opposite direction, one of my pet peeves in a relationship is when I can feel the sexual dynamic drifting towards “his goal is to get him off and my goal is to get him off.” Because, after months of mutual pleasure, it’s like my orgasm is suddenly just a bonus–one I shouldn’t expect very often–and even the most seemingly-egalitarian dudes get grumpy and defensive no matter how I bring it up. Sure, focusing solely on my partner’s pleasure is wonderful from time-to-time, and I don’t always want or need to orgasm to enjoy a romp, but feeling like my pleasure is ALWAYS secondary is a total boner-killer.
[Trigger warning]
I’d say that its better for men to avoid women that need self help books and counselling to let go, or at least warn them that they are potentially dealing with someone with abandonment issues and that women with abandonment issues can come with a lot of other baggage – a whole range of abusive behaviours, cutting etc. Using Pangagon as a pool for feed-back is going go net you a higher than average concentration than average number of opinions of women that have politicised sexuality, believe in various myths about men, cut, have BPD and associated anger and abandonment issues.
Also in the whole area of creating lowered inhibitions and encourating honest communication about desual desires, from my own perspective, that of a Dominant role in bdsm play and a little knowledge of male game, men can quite easily learn and apply the learning needed take a pro-active role in creating these conditions for women, if need be.
Wow. Characterizing all women who have difficulty giving feedback in bed as psychologically damaged is not only insulting, but incredibly inaccurate. You do not say why you reject the argument that otherwise well-adjusted women might struggle with giving sexual feedback because they have been socialized to protect men’s egos, so it is hard for me to interact with what you’ve said on a substantive level. Thus I am left to look at the global effects of your argument: to dismiss and delegitimize women who speak up about having problems giving feedback in bed, and also free men from any responsibility to be patient and helpful.
edit
“men that need self help books and counselling in order to cope with having sex”.
“men that need self help books and counselling in order to cope with the having sex.”
This is a mis-characterization of what Amanda said, as you well know. I’m sure it was quite deliberate.
Also absolutely hilarious is your characterization of Pandagon, a sex-positive feminist site, as a place rife with women who are afraid of the penis. BWAH!
Christina
Pandagon promotes the idea that we live in a rape culture, from my perspective, believing that we live in a rape culture and being sex positive are conflicting positions, as the belief that we live in a rape and reading some of the things that Marcotte has said about women and her article are negative messages that are not conducive to a sex positive mentality, being sex positive is more than a trendy label.
Also, Marcotte would never start advising women to sleep with men that need self help and therapy, so its a little off for her to be asking men to do the same.
A) We do live in a rape culture.
B) I am sex positive.
See? That wasn’t so difficult. Rape exists and many people apologize for it by claiming that the vicitim is to blame. Sex (not rape, but actual consensual sex, that many people have and enjoy a lot) is a good thing that people should do if they are respectful to each other and enjoy it.
I don’t know what Marcotte would say, but I would suggest that men who need self help and therapy are not that different from other men. Same goes for women. Men and women who need self help and therapy should engage in sex (and be engaged in sex) under the same conditions as anyone else. If a man is abusive and not respectful and does not have consensual sex, then he needs therapy and a woman should not have sex with him.
It’s really not difficult.
You would have a point if you were talking about female pedophilia, that is an actively covered up and excused sex crime but rape of women is the most over exposed, over exaggerated, falsely reported and politicized crime there is, mod justice and vigilantly action is not uncommon and convicted rapists are the most despised of inmates.
I do question any follower of the rape culture political cult’s ability to be truly sex positive, with that propaganda and the thoughts of the crime itself ever present and festering in their minds.
above post to Tlauf
The fact that rape exists is not what makes a rape culture a rape culture. Rape has existed since time began; because it is about one person forcing their will on another and not respecting the humanity of the other person. Rape can/does happen to anyone regardless as to gender because it is about violence, power and aggression. The term “rape culture” implies that there is a system that encourages celebrates and integrates rape which is an action of violence. this characterization put forth by some fails to take into account that individuals can choose to exchange power and have a power sharing give and take based on the individual needs and parties involved with mutual respect for each of the individuals.
A sexual relationship must have mutual respect, caring, and communication – this item attempts to communicate so that individuals can work toward communicating openly with respect. This response sounds like the article hit a nerve
Personally, I would be thrilled if more men were interested in self-help and therapy. I’ve dated a lot of guys who refused to deal with their “issues” and it created nothing but problems. On the other hand, my current boyfriend has read a couple dozen self help books, been in therapy at various times and even went on a couple of men’s movement retreats where he ran around in the woods and banged. Guess what? He’s a better person because of it. I’d rather date a man who has been in therapy and worked on his issues than a guy who is in total denial.
Frankly, you strike me as a little obsessed with this idea you have of emotionally unbalanced, sex-negative women, perhaps “cutters,” talking about “rape culture” on feminist websites. Given your asserted interest in being a dominant in BDSM relationships, you might want to take a good look at yourself and figure out why you find these thoughts about fearful, emotional vulnerable women who are terrified of rape to be so fascinating. After all these women are no threat to you and no one is forcing you to read their comments on feminist websites or to give any attention to what they think or say.
meant to say “ran around in the woods and banged on drums”. Just banging would have been a whole different kind of retreat, LOL
Yes of course Sarah, self-help and therapy isn’t inherently bad.
I was saying that if a woman is using self help and therapy to over-come a fear intimacy and letting go during sex that we might be talking about women with BPD. Women with BPD destroy the lives of others and its not responsible to advise men to date women with BPD or the problems associated with it. I also observed that Pandagon has a higher number of these women than the general population.
And spare me the insinuations about sexual abuse, feminists making false accusations and insinuations about sexual abuse is par for the course and it reveals more about them and their movement than it does the latest person they are trying to frame as a rapist, whoever he may be.
I didn’t say anything about you engaging in sexual abuse, you jumped right to that yourself, but yes it might be useful for you to understand why you have such a strong reaction to the idea of women who are fearful or inhibited about sex or afraid of rape. SUCH a strong reaction that you have to immediately disparage and utterly reject such women by making ludicrous blanket assertions about them havimg BPD — while at the same time, for some reason you seem to have dedicated a lot of time to thinking about these women (women you ostensibly find totally undesirable), and reading what they say on blogs and comment boards on feminist websites (forums you apparently disagree with vehemently). I find that rather interesting, don’t you? I mean, why do you care? Why get yourself so worked up about women you have no desire to be with? However, I’m not going to try to psychoanalyze you over the Internet as this conversation has really gotten kind of boring. Good luck to you sir.
Hello again Sarah
I feel that Im misrepresenting myself/being misrepresented here.
I believe that men can play a pro-active role and mutually rewarding role in creating the space for women to release whatever sexual inhibitions that they may have. This is healthy and fun and a great way to bond, under what Im going call “normal circumstances”. I also believe that women are prefectly capable of lowering their inhinitions themselves.
Where I take issue here is as follows.
Part of Marottes job is to create rape hysteria to advance certain politic agendas. This means instilling a perpetual fear of rape and helplessness in as many women as possible through rape and victim culture propaganda and then using these women, be they suffering with PDs, are rape victims or are just young a gullible as political tools, this progressive style of politics goes back to the days to the lynch mobs. You can see Marcottes agenda and poor judgement in her very public support of false rape accuser, child and domestic abuser and murderer Crystal Magnum and lynch mobbing of her victims, something which Marcotte has chosen not to apologise or take responsibility for.
Men bear no responsibility for women that have had a perpetual state of fear of rape conditioned into them by the Marcotte and the political left, nor do men have any sort of responsibility to get in involved with and enable women with personality disorders that present the attachment and fear of abandonment behaviours that are associated with BPD, as these women, are abusive personalities that blame external forces for their behaviour.
Its irks me that someone who makes a living out of deliberatly creating and enabeling sexual and emotional problems in women through rape and victim propaganda is trying to tells that men have a responsibility to help these same women.
My “perpetual fear of rape and helplessness” is because, in my relatively small social circle, I can count women who have been:
-raped by their boyfriends
-raped by their dates
-raped by their husbands
-raped by dudes they met in bars
-raped by their fathers
-raped by their stepfathers
-raped by their neighbors
-raped by their dormmates
I also know women who have been:
-accosted and propositioned by total strangers on the street
-verbally harassed on buses, trains, and other public places
-groped on buses, trains, and other public places
-flashed on buses, trains, and other public places
-offered unsolicited advice on “looking sexy” from total strangers
-followed home by total strangers
-told they “deserved” any or all of the above because of their body/clothes/behavior.
I would still be afraid of the RAPE CULTURE I live in even if there was no such thing as a feminist blog to tell me about it, get it?
Bex
When we look at the more reliable research, rape is not gendered, nor is sexual assault, female pedophilia is in the closet and women commit most child abuse and domestic abuse.
So using the feminist definition of what an abuse or rape culture is, in reality it works in favour of the female abuser and against the children and adult male victims and that culture is maintained both by traditionalism and feminism, more aggressively by the latter which dishonestly presents bad behaviour as generally male and victimisation as generally female, when females are the least victimised, lmost protected abusers most protected group in society.
People like Marcotte make a living out of disseminating the lies that maintain this culture, they also deliberately stir up fear and hatred with this false reality.
If you want to see what a rape culture looks like, try posting as an advocate for victims of female abusers around feminists, and see the denial, censorship and abuse that follows, feminism is the most active rape/abuse culture in operation in our society.
Victimisation of women is not hidden behind a culture of acceptance, victimisation of women by men is the most over exaggerated, politicised and exploited, lied about, falsely reported and taken seriously form of abuse… to the point where certain totalitarian elements are using feminists to erode the right to the presumption of innocence for men.
This seems like a rather nice and fairly harmless article trying to give guys an idea about some minor sexual hangups that their wives/girlfriends might have. I am really kind of mystified how you can read so much into it about gender politics and rape for goshsakes. Your view of sex seems to be kind of sad and grim.
@Shakes head sadly
Ill explain it to you .
I clearly take issues with rape culture fear mongers like Marcotte exploiting gullible and/or vulnerable women for their own ends while having the gall to then preach about men talking responsibly for women having sexual hang-ups. Its a bit like a catholic priest lecturing on sex-positivity. I’m also talking issue with her well documented public support of at least one abusive woman.
Now, if I’m taking issue with Marcottes hypocritical stance here, rape culture propaganda and support of abusive women, I’m not taking issue with sex, itself I’m talking issue with an unscrupulous and exploitive way of doing business.
Well, make up your mind. Sex-positive is a fake label, or it’s real but incompatible with believing in rape culture?
The fact that you, personally, cannot reconcile concerns about rape culture with an appreciation for consensual sex is your problem. Not everybody else finds that a stumbling block.
muthago
Ah, the fake implication that I am pro-rapist, how predictable, and of course there isn’t a problem with women falsely accusing men of rape, right?
I didn’t say that sex-positive is is inherently fake, its something that a person either is or isnt.
I do maintain that “rape culture” propaganda, which is a socially constructed rape and abuse culture in itself, (check Bex list in which female sex crimes are kept hidden protected and male victims are excluded) is incompatible with having a truly healthy and sex positive mentality.
Think about it mythago, when the progressive movement began using rape fear mongering to advance their other agendas during the progressive era with black rapist and black brute propaganda, did this construct not damage relations between black men and the white women that that were deliberately worked up into a panic through this unscrupulous political game?
Its reasonable to assume that,potentially, when women visit the areas where this same, but modified political construct is being used to advance certain agendas (Pandagon) their view of men and society and themselves, even at an unconscious level is being manipulated in ways that are detrimental to their mental health, relationships and sex lives.
Boy, nice attitude. You sound like a real gem. Had many girlfriends? No? Please go back to playing your video games and watching porn in your parents’ basement. The grownups are talking now.
Sarah,
this article is dealing specifically with people who are sexually inexperienced, and might be talking about women that might have abandonment issues that they need self help and therapy for in order to have a healthy sex life. Its not a”grown up” chat about sex.
SF
I was characterizing the women that the OP said need lots of self help and therapy to talk to their partners about sex as having psychological problems. I’m also saying that if these intimacy problems are rooted in BPD and abandonment issues, that its somewhat irresponsible to to advise men to get involved with these women in the first place.
Well, I think its offensive for you to say that any woman who has difficulty talking about sex must be severely emotionally disturbed, if not mentally ill. Frankly, it makes me suspect that you lack experience with women since most normal, emotionally stable women have some inhibitions in that regard. So do most men, actually. If you actually had any sexual experience, you’d know that. I think you have read a lot about “game” and BDSM and you may be intimately familiar with the DSM4, but nothing in your comments indicates that you have a clue about anything you are saying.
Moreover, I think the author’s reference to women needing therapy to talk about sex was simply a bit of poetic exaggeration, but even if you take her absolutely literally, as apparently you do, the fact is that a lot of people get counseling or therapy for various issues, and that doesn’t mean they are mentally ill.
Sarah
Its a little silly chosing to get offended by something that I haven’t actually said and dealt with in another post, that was censored, Take my lead -I chose to not be offended by your own attempts to offend me, because what you are saying is not true in the first place, see? If I can do that you can easily chose to not be offended by things that I haven’t said.
Again, I’m not talking about women that just need a little conditioning or to be lead by example to lower their inhibitions. I’m talking about women that need “self help and therapy” and the fact that at Pandagon you will find a higher concentration of women with issues relating to sex, at best, its women that believe that they live in a rape culture and at worst women with full blown PDs, than you would in the general population.
Obviously if you have rape culture propaganda and myths in your mind and believe that men are responsible for everything and women are victims (see Adams post near the top for more on that) the chances of your having some sexual problems are going to be high
Again this is not a commentary on the general population, its a commentary on Marcottes subculture and the neurotics and histrionics that populate it.
“its women that believe that they live in a rape culture”
Oh well then, never mind. Does this blog have a pie filter?
Sarah
Just to be more clear about what I’m saying to you here, you might believe that a conversation about having difficulty saying what you want, having orgasms and how to touch a clit is all grown up and all but human sexuality is hugely diverse and sophisticated, there are many activities and subtleties. Power exchange, all the colours of BDSM, the more psychological and spiritual aspects and on it goes. How to orgasm, touch a clit and how to say what you like is an entry level discussion.
“Boy, nice attitude. You sound like a real gem. Had many girlfriends? No? Please go back to playing your video games and watching porn in your parents’ basement. The grownups are talking now.”
Classic shaming language right out the playbook.
Is logic and reason alien to you?
Oh, right.
Logic and reason are tools of the patriarchy.
Translation: women who don’t want no-strings sex with me are psych cases. The best way to deal with a reluctant woman is to dominate her.
Best of luck with that!
“women who don’t want no-strings sex with me are psych cases. The best way to deal with a reluctant woman is to dominate her.
Translation – I see nothing wrong with falsely accusing men that offend me, of rape.
Flora
“women who don’t want no-strings sex with me are psych cases. The best way to deal with a reluctant woman is to dominate her.
Translation – I see nothing wrong with falsely accusing men that offend me, of rape.
You are the sort that I’m talking about, have you come from Pandagon?
I think this is pretty damn good at covering a lot of bases — even as a kinky girl (who likes being flogged and so forth). Especially about masturbating. I am not porny photogenic when I masturbate. So don’t make me feel shitty for not turning you on enough with it.
But I would add that it’s really uncomfortable to end up feeling like your orgasm is for someone else. A little bit of “yeah, come for me” when I’m on top is fine, but it can be kind of creepy pressure. It shouldn’t really be about you and your manliness to get someone off. Can’t their pleasure be their own for once? Try to please them, but not because You Da Man. It’s related to the enthusiasm-without-technique oral sex Amanda refers to. It’s great that you like it; but can I like it too please?
Maggie, I totally agree with your points.
Ditto ditto ditto on the porny photogenic while masturbating thing. I’d never made that connection until you made your post, but it is so true. I don’t feel comfortable masturbating in front of my partners–you can just feel them evaluating you compared to women masturbating in porn.
YES. I fourth? you on the ‘porny photogenic’ thing when masturbating. When I’m feeling my best pleasure, I’m not at all. Especially when in a video situation, I sacrifice my own pleasure in order to make the right noises and faces and angles. It sucks, but that’s life. It’s funny, but like the rest of you, for the longest time, that made me far less comfortable than many of the things that would be considered ‘crazier’ and less directly related to my pleasure. I realize why now–the pressure of feeling ‘evaluated’.
THANK YOU. It may not necessarily be true for other women, but, this is entirely true for me. Thank you thank you thank you.
Wow. It’s been awhile since I’ve read something that, at the end of every paragraph, left me saying “YES! Exactly! Glad I’m not the only one.” Kudos.
Men, take heed. Your girlfriend will thank you.
Thank you. I was one of the Twitter respondents, and I believe you’ve hit the nail on the head with this article.
Another interesting thing I’ve found is when I started to have sex with my male partner the way he has sex with me — by not being as vocal, initiating “porny photogenic” sex positions that are the least pleasurable and even uncomfortable for me, prolonging the session even when I’m clearly tired, climaxing way to early or too late, and even adding the occasional “This dick belongs to me” comment(sorry for the explicit language) — I successfully made him feel inadequate in bed, even if he did climax. Afterwards it was so much easier to have a conversation with him about how the above things make me uncomfortable and inadequate as a lover without the guilt-trip. His ego used to get bruised a lot before when I would even slightly suggest a change in how we have sex so that it could be easier for me to climax(because that’s what he wants, right?). Not so anymore
I forgot to add this to my last comment.
I want to make clear that I do not support the usage of sex (or bad sex) as revenge on your partner. But I really felt I had exhausted all other forms of communication with my partner, from slight suggestions to confronting him directly about the things that made me uncomfortable. At that point I felt like fighting fire with fire, if that makes sense.
Thanks again for the article Amanda!
Sorry, Amanda, but your body doesn’t come with a manual. If it did, it would be useless as soon as we parted, since what works for you might not work for the next woman. So, if women care about having their men please them, they must speak up. I’m tired of having bad sex because a woman won’t speak up. I’m also tired of playing twenty questions trying to figure out what a woman wants this time around. As a software developer, I can do that at work and get paid to waste my time.
I’ll tinker with a computer. I’m not going to waste time tinkering with a woman.
Hey there Matt.
There’s no reason to be negative there is something you can do. Stop slut shaming, Women get mixed signals about sex. You should like sex, but not too much or you are a slut. Yes, even in the age of feminism – there are many women who feel horribly shamed about sex whether its from their family, religion, sexism or body shame. More and more women are feeling intimated by the standards set by fashion, TV and porn.
To paraphrase a quote about blow jobs – they don’t call it a job for nothing. I think either sex to expect that all it takes to get folks to get revved up is a “plug in” – I’m sure you know that reference. Instead if taking the suggestions so personally why not try them out, before declaring them invalid. Look at all of the women who are commenting, they just want good sex – should they feel shamed about that?
When did I engage in slut-shaming? I was griping about women who won’t take responsibility for their own pleasure and assert themselves, yet still expect to have good sex. Such women expect the man to do all the work, and I’m supposed to think that that expectation is not sexist?
Whatever. Downvote this post into the void as well, if you like.
The real mystery here is why you ruled out simply asking.
I’m not responsible for your pleasure. You are. If you want something, ask for it. Don’t wait for me to ask you.
Interesting analogy. You find tinkering to be something onerous that never produces good results, and that you will only do for compensation like money. Have you never really had any good results from experimenting during sex?
“We can tell when you’re doing something because you saw it in a porno.”
Actually men touch you this way because this is they way we like to be touched as far as I know. We are more genitally focused. We also touch you this way because this is the part of your body we desire.
As far as giving a modern woman oral sex I would highly recommend against it. 1 in 4 American women carry one or more forms of disease. Of primary concern is HPV which men and boys are still banned from getting the vaccine for. HPV has become a serious health concern for men and currently we have no way to protect ourselves from it.
“Researchers found a 225% increase in oral cancer cases in the U.S. from 1974 to 2007, mainly among white men, said Maura Gillison, a cancer researcher at Ohio State University.”
“The more oral-sex partners a man had, the greater his cancer risk, Gillison told a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.”
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-22/entertainment/28639602_1_oral-cancer-hpv-vaccines-cervical-cancer
“As far as giving a modern woman oral sex I would highly recommend against it.”
If you’re worried about getting HPV from eating pussy, use a dental dam. If a dental dam doesn’t offer enough coverage, break out the Saran Wrap. If she doesn’t like it, she has two hands and doesn’t really need you anyway — just like you don’t really need her.
ryan’s actually lying, the series of 3 vaccines for HPV is reccomended for boys over the age of 11, it’s not covered by insurance and you have to pay out-of-pocket. My middle-school-age son just finished the series, and his pediatrician said his professional organization is putting heavy pressure on our state legislature to make it mandatory for boys and thusly covered by insurance.
Amanda, this is a WONDERFUL article. Thank you so much for writing it. There is nothing I disagree with. I’ve experienced some forms of all your points at one point or another.
It’s still sometimes hard to ask for things or say I don’t like things that my guy might like but the older I’ve gotten, the better I’ve gotten at it. I am still working on it though. The desire to please him sometimes overrides what I would truly get pleasure from. And I think a lot of women fall into that trap.
Key points from Amanda’s article that rang true for me:
Amanda: “But when you do something you picked up in a porn that doesn’t add to the real-life pleasure, we take notice and we’re often hoping you get it out of your system so we can move on to activities that are actually fun.”
This has been a reaccuring issue with pretty much all the men I’ve dated at some point. It’s clear when a guy is attempting something he saw from a porno and it couldn’t be a bigger turn off. I’m a real person. I’m here to enjoy a mutually exciting experience. I am not here to put on a show for you or fulfill your porno fantasies.
Amanda: “The vagina’s ability to continue lubricating itself is limited, which can make marathon sex feel more like a duty than a joy.”
I think part of the issue with marathon sex is sometimes the guy is too desentilized perhaps from too much masturbation or other reasons.
Amanda: “For women who have trouble orgasming, sex could be fun, but it isn’t not because of their lack of orgasm so much as their fear they’ll disappoint their partners. They find themselves avoiding sex because they don’t want to have to endure endless attempts to bring forth an orgasm that will never come,”
Sometimes I just like to have sex even if I know I’m not going to orgasm. That doesn’t mean my partner still shouldn’t care about my pleasure but he shouldn’t try to force it either. Otherwise I feel like I should be a performer putting on a show. The intimacy is a lot of fun even if I don’t reach the finish line all the time.
Amanda: “But pretty much all women turn the volume up on the ones they do have, because they know you like it. This isn’t lying, but embellishment, and it would be nice if men returned the favor. Sex is no time for masculine stoicism. A little verbal appreciation in the form of moaning and groaning makes a nice two-way street.”
So true. When I was a young teenager, before I even started having sex, and came across porn for the first time, I would literally practice moaning like the girls in it because I knew guys liked it and I wanted to be what guys liked. It wasn’t until a good decade later when an ex boyfriend complimented me on my vocalness did I realize that I taught myself to do that, it wasn’t really all that “natural”. Now I just do it but I was really duplicating something I had seen that I knew men liked. I do like men that are vocal in bed but that doesn’t mean I want to be told what a *insert for letter word here* I am, but some verbal communication during sex is a good thing.
Amanda: “When I put the call out for suggestions for this article, this was probably the No. 1 category, with comments like, “That’s a clitoris, not an elevator button.” Nipple-twisting was also denounced, and one woman noted that not every woman is a fan of finger-banging, which can feel rough and sort of pointless. Men who dive at your genitals with their mouths were appreciated for their enthusiasm, but not so much for their technique. Overall, the feeling was that more pressure can be added as needed, but the shock to the system of having someone overdo it can be a major turnoff.”
Again, so true. Please don’t bite my clitoris either. Would you like your penis bit? I think this goes back to men doing what they see in porn instead of authentically responding to a woman.
It’s clear when a guy is attempting something he saw from a porno and it couldn’t be a bigger turn off. I’m a real person.
Those who make are real people, too. As someone who has sex with men, I do not think it is clear when they attempt something they saw in a porn. To even begin to do that one would have to watch tons of porn. I think that assumption comes from men and women being sexually aroused in different ways. Another thing to keep in mind is that just because something does not feel good to you does not mean it does not feel good to the other person, and since people tend to do what feels good to them, that is probably the reason men try different things.
I think part of the issue with marathon sex is sometimes the guy is too desentilized perhaps from too much masturbation or other reasons.
The penis is really sensitize. Most men would get skin burns if they had sex without lube, especially if they did it for an hour. And that does not even get to the pain of having an erection that long or not ejaculating (it really hurts). Likewise, masturbation will not make someone so desensitized that they would not feel skin-to-skin rubbing.
“Those who make are real people, too. ”
Those who make porn you mean? Of course they are real people. However , the motivation for a porn movie vs a real life experience are two different things. Porn movies aren’t usually motiviated by the subtle ways women are turned on. It’s more about the showmenship of getting the woman in porn to be in more and more kinky positions or more and more kinky acts. And that has nothign to do with her pleasure. There is a very popular segement of porn that is about literally choking a woman on a man’s penis. What exactly do men think is pleasurable in that? Do men think a woman’s clit is located in the bottom part of her throat now?
“As someone who has sex with men, I do not think it is clear when they attempt something they saw in a porn. ”
For me it is.
“To even begin to do that one would have to watch tons of porn.”
A lot of men begin watching porn in their young teens, studies say that average age is 11. That’s a lot of porn from that time into his adulthood.
“I think that assumption comes from men and women being sexually aroused in different ways. Another thing to keep in mind is that just because something does not feel good to you does not mean it does not feel good to the other person, and since people tend to do what feels good to them, that is probably the reason men try different things.”
So it feels good when a heterosexual man gets something shoved far down into their throats they are made to choke? And this is why there is a significant chunk of porn that shows this particulare sex act in hetero porn directed to men showcasing women?
This so thoroughly needed to be said.
Just to add my own two cents though, I’m a girl who generally DOES speak up when I don’t enjoy something. And I’ve honestly had a guy tell me to get out of his room immediately, in the middle of things, because I responded that I wasn’t feeling anything when he asked me if a *particular* act felt good. Granted, he’s an unusually bad case, but I don’t think girls are totally unreasonable for hesitating or having some fears about speaking up during sex. Even in nicer cases, we know that there is some degree of self-esteem involved in being a good lover, and just like guys don’t want to ask for fear of seeming like they’re fishing for compliments, girls don’t want to come to sex with nothing but negativity. And, sometimes we know what we don’t want, but we don’t have a very clear idea of what we *do* want, especially with less experience.
Also, communication is important, but it isn’t necessarily something that comes instantly and easily. It would be nice if a few of the guys who are blaming these girls for not communicating enough could brainstorm about how to encourage communication, or recognize when it just isn’t happening.
Great article.
I love the part about the nipple twisting. If it is used as a bullying device by grade school children please ask before doing it.
I do have to ask though. WTF is up with the picture accompanying the article? Why is that nail photoshopped on there backwards?
Nice article, v. funny. Weird that the suggestion of tolerating a small, harmless and common hang-up generated so much anger among certain commenters….
BTW, @Me, my husband has BPD and being with him is great. Just a different set of problems, and everyone has those. Your dismissal of “these women” as damaged goods to avoid really reminded me of the infamous answering machine tape that went viral, “Alexei the Lover.” Yeesh. Oh yeah, and sex and rape are two different things. “Have sex with me” and “don’t rape me or act like that’s ok” are attitudes that compliment each other rather well.
Sure, the advice here is Sex 101 stuff, but sometimes people sort of start over learning how to have sex after a long relationship ends or whatever. These tips are classic. I’d add that sometimes I’ve not spoken up in the past b/c it was really awkward, or because it was a trade-off: endure a weird sex move (probably won’t go on too long) or offend the guy and deal with some tedious ego-stroking (which will set back orgasm by probably 10 minutes).
“Our sexist culture unleashes….” was as far as I got. If I wanted a feminist sermon, I would have gone to a feminist site. Good bye!