Wherever they are, Julie Gillis writes, we need to make them clearer.
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This is not about rape. Well, not exactly. I admit to a little compassion and/or battle fatigue from the past few days and weeks. But I’m determined to keep focused on the path towards supporting all humans as we struggle with this together.
Rape is a difficult subject. It can bring out the worst fears in all of us, some odd and horrible mixture of shame, guilt, fear, anger, and probably a few other things thrown in for good measure. It’s the deepest part of our shadow side. It is a terrible thing, this shadow and it shows us the worst part of human nature.
Rape touches on the worst of that shadow–to take something so personal and turn it, twist it, change something so amazing, sex, into something fearful, forever. Because it’s so horrible is why it is vital to be able to accurately define it, identify it, report it, and eradicate it.
That being said, this article isn’t a post about rape precisely. It’s certainly not about rape that occurs in time of war, prison, or torture or systematized forms. This post isn’t about familial abuse, though that seems to be connected more to what I’m talking about. Neither of those angles are what I am addressing in this piece. They are real, they are extremely problematic, and they do need focus.
What I’m focused on at the moment are the posts and comments I’ve seen of more personal moments: date rapes, confusing nights, mixed messages. Was it rape? Was it sexual assault? What if I’m a man and I felt really bad about the experience? What if I’m a lesbian and I should have said no to her, does it count?
As noted, the FBI classification is causing lots of conversations. The recent change makes us lay people (read: non-legal experts) ask questions: What is rape, how do we define it, what’s the difference between sexual assault and rape and sexual misconduct. What makes female on male envelopment count as a different kind of statistic than male on female penetration? When is it bad sex and bad choices, and when is it much more nefarious?
Some of those questions are being dealt with elsewhere, so I am going to share my thoughts on an angle I think is worth examining.
Sexuality and Communication
Here are some some vignettes from my own life. Because I’m a woman and, at the time, was dating men, these little stories are told from my POV, and are heterosexual in nature. But I bet any of us, after reading the stories could share some of our own from any orientation and gender combination.
1) 1988 — I briefly began dating a man and we had reached a point of serious making out on our sexual progression. We went to a movie and he drove me home and we made out in the front of the car. Things got steamy and he stretched out over me and though I froze up and mumbled to stop, he engaged in frottage to fruition on my leg, looked embarrassed, I went inside and we didn’t date or speak again.
2) 1989 — I was at a theater festival and all the interns were sexually active. I went to a boy’s room one night. He hadn’t shown much interest, but neither had he rejected me. He let me in. We fooled around and didn’t quite have PIV but we did get naked. He didn’t talk to me the next day and avoided me.
3) 1990 — I met a young man in a city about an hour away from mine while I was visiting a friend. We hit it off and I invited him to come visit. He did though when he arrived he seemed different than when I’d met him in person. We hung out and even though he knew other folks in town, he wanted to stay at my apartment. He was sexually assertive with me and I grew uncomfortable with where things were going, yet there he was in my apartment. I freaked out, said I didn’t want to have sex. He slept on the couch.
4) 1992 — I was a party with some new friends in Seattle, where I’d recently moved. I met a guy, flirted with him and decided to take him home with me, though my friends seemed really worried about it. We got into things, but it was really no fun for me. Things weren’t going well, chemistry-wise, let’s say. He, though, was motivated to have a good night and made it clear he wanted his. I remember, very distinctly, a moment where I calculated the situation; alone, no roommates, late at night. Ask him to leave or take 5 minutes and get him off in order to get him out. I chose the latter option.
What did all of those vignettes have in common?
There was not one bloody word of communication about wants, desires, limits, boundaries, ideas, hopes between me or any of those men. In all the scenarios, I see both of us at some level of fault — no direct communication of yes or no, no curious conversation about what the night or relationship might hold, no “no harm no foul” card was offered from either party in any of the examples.
In the first scenario, we never talked about (for instance) our religious differences pertaining to sex, issues around my virginity or if we wanted to keep dating.
Second, at the theater festival, I was focused on getting the guy and not paying attention to his signals. He didn’t say no and he did participate. I have no idea what he really wanted.
In the third scenario, I didn’t talk to the man about finding additional places to stay, that I wasn’t sure if I was ready for sex, he didn’t relay any information to me about his goals.
In the final story, I made assumptions about my safety without talking to him. I didn’t make decisions that were in my best interest and I didn’t have any idea at all what his actual feelings were.
I don’t consider any of the above situations rape, sexual assault, or actual danger of being in sexual assault. At the time, and still, I see those situations as really nights of immature sexual behavior by people with little to no skills about how to talk about sex, about how to communicate and own their own sexual desires and boundaries. I see individuals making choices without any structural support in their past that would have given them better skills, to have better sex. Or not to have sex at all.
Again, focusing only on people in the dating and mating scene, I wonder at times if all the very valuable stats, all the important anti-rape programs, all the Take Back The Night movements (for men, women, trans, and any sexual orientation) will do systemic good at all if there isn’t also a complete systemic overhaul about how we communicate about sexual health, sexual pleasure, bodily autonomy, sexual agency and until we learn to truly speak to each other about sex. I still think there is something bigger and deeper that needs to be addressed concurrently in order for those programs to be globally effective for both men and women.
How we begin that process in a country with such conflicted views about sex? In the US alone we have states that focus on total abstinence only sex education and states that promote a comprehensive sex ed program. We have battles over vaccines that could prevent cancer, because we fear that the administration of them will cause our children to have sex. Which they probably will anyway.
We have politics influenced by religion and beliefs, which are often opposition to more secular beliefs. I’ve seen articles focused on returning to decades old Family Values, posts on how feminism causes men to commit less, pieces on how women being sexual active lowers their market value. We’ve got activists focused on legalizing prostitution and we have activists promoting “True Love Waits.”
We have poles within poles within poles and the messages are very, very confusing. We speak, quite literally, different languages about it all. We need interpreters.
If we don’t talk about sex, if we don’t talk about boundaries, if we can’t together define bad sex from immature choices, to sexual assault to rape, how are we to get good stats? How do we inform men and women about rape, assault and the role consent plays in sexuality if we aren’t having clear conversations and mutually agreed upon definitions across the boards? How do we shift sex from poles of “Yes/No” to a continuum of mutually shifting and changing negotiations around sexuality and the sex act, as ClarisseThorn mentioned in her piece earlier this year. You know my position, as I’ve written about it before.
Naysayers will say, and have said to me, that no one will talk like that. That it takes the romance out of seduction. That it’s an impossible mode. Maybe. Maybe that’s the price we have to pay to get the clarity we say we want. Women have to own their desires, wants, and boundaries as clearly as do men. Women need to be able to say yes, men need to be able to say no. Maybe everyone needs classes in how to read body language, how to ask questions, how to use clarifying language in a sexy way. I personally think that class could be kind of fun.
Maybe our western cultural paradigms about sex, sexuality, sexual health, men and women (masculinity and femininity and the narratives connected to each) need some attention before we can figure out how to truly solve issues like date rape, consent, envelopment and how arousal doesn’t equal “yes.”
These things actually are happening, I believe. Concurrently. That’s part of why it’s messy work.
I realize we all come from different perspectives and opinions, some of them at a 180 based on religious, moral and cultural differences. But things don’t seem to be working well out there (std rates, teen pregnancies, ample examples of miscommunication, and more), and I’d rather deal with the differences than ignore the problems.
People are having sex, they don’t all have the same information, skills, and abilities, and there is room for improvement. If sex, pleasure, and connection are what we want (and if abuse, pain, loss, and assault are what we want to avoid), I think we should all work on it together, even if it’s difficult. Even if we speak different languages.
I’ll be posting a piece about intepreting sex in the next few days. Until then, I’d love to hear your comments, stories, and thoughts.
—Photo ctrouper/Flickr
About Julie Gillis
I’m an MRA and not (usually) a fan of this site’s articles. However, I found Julie’s article here (as well as prior ones she has written) mature, balanced, and well-intentioned to both sexes.
I think GMP changed a lot during the last 2 months or so.
The GMP-staff did not give in to feminist demands of which articles and comments should be publish and which not.
It is possible to present now your opinion about certain issues which are important for men, even by the MRA-point of view, regardless if feminists like to read that or not.
Thanks, Aharon.
This.
In a nutshell, This.
I believe This. And This is virtually all I’ve bitched about for the past half a year. x3
I do not, do not, do not like the state of anti-communicative expectation in today’s dating scene.
The sort of class you describe, about enriching intimate communication, it sounds as though it would be tons of fun, and I’d have a lot to learn. I do feel like we need to move beyond body language though, for early encounters, since it’s so easily misunderstood and misapplied from person to person.
I believe the eradacation of romance by the “hook up” culture is a big reason for the seeming lack of communication today. I truly believe that men and women physches are different (Mars vs Venus, Left Brain vs Right Brain ) however you want to put it. Romance was the middle ground, where we met with love and RESPECT for each other. A place where even if you didn’t totally understand the other or the logic used to get there, you didn’t disparage them. I heard the young guys I work with talk about going to clubs and “getting some”. I ask them if the only reason they go there is to “get laid”. They say “Hell, sometimes I get laid IN the club! It all sounds very cold, just another biological function.
Au contraire.
I think the “hook up” culture communicates very, very clearly. And while the Mars/Venus difference is true there is no need to put women on a pedestal for it. The hookup culture is not ONLY for men, but serves a component of female biological wiring as well.
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Almost all the young men I work with would agree with you . They absolutly LOVE the “hook up culture” Julie’s article though is focused on “Hook ups gone bad”and seems to ask if there is a better way to communicate. With the absence of romance, maybe the only way is a “pre date” form. I know that sounds out there. Just think that 20 years ago how ridiciolious a pre nup marriage agreement sounded. I remember watching a comedy skit many years ago where a cuy comes to pick up a girl for a date. Before they leavehowever, she takes his personal info and puts it into a machine. It warns her that hes a PUA and gives his history as such. Well , guess what. Now there are web sites where for a fee, will do practically that!
I agree with what you’re saying about not putting women on a pedestal. And it’s also important to note that “hook-up culture” occurs with LGBTQ folks too – so if you have two same gendered folk hooking up, just because they’re the same gender that doesn’t mean that they communicate in the same way.
Julie, I think you are SO right about this! Kudos for speaking out and being active, and saying things the world needs to hear in such an open and accessible way. I truly enjoyed reading this article and I agreed with every word of it. You are awesome.
Thank you!
Au contraire.
I think the “hook up” culture communicates very, very clearly. And while the Mars/Venus difference is true there is no need to put women on a pedestal for it. The hookup culture is not ONLY for men, but serves a component of female biological wiring as well.
Rape is pretty clearly defined with the new FBI definition though, it’s quite simple:
If you’re a woman, you can’t rape. You can do whatever you want, including mounting a man’s manhood when he’s unconscious, or even force one down outnumbering him with a group, and you will not have committed a rape; even though you actually raped him.
If you’re a man, the question is, did she have a drink? You raped her. Even if she mounted you, and she is the one who seduced you, you raped her. If she mounts you, or even puts your finger, even slightly into any of her orifices without you first asking explicit permission, you raped her. Basically, if a woman feels like you raped her after the fact, regardless of reality, you raped her. A bride had something to drink on her wedding, and you, the groom, consummated the marriage on the wedding night: you raped her.
In short, if you value your freedom, a man should avoid every woman that has has even one drink. And if enough man understand this situation, and consistently apply this rule, women will eventually be forced between a choice: alcohol, or sex. If you want sex and you go to a bar, only soft drinks for you. If you chose alcohol and you get randy later on, tough luck for you, you ain’t getting any.
Im surprised with this article. As an MRA, i found it balanced and fair – which is weird for the GMP. I actually read this and thought – i’d be happy for my (future) son to read this.
However, having done the one night stand thing quite a bit in my younger days, i can say that, for me, communication prior to sex is such an awkward and difficult (near impossible) thing to do – without killing the mood. With communication being 90 % non -verbal, our reliance on verbal communication in a court of law “But did she actually SAY yes Johnny????” seems out of touch with sexual reality.
The questions are clear – But what to ask, when to ask and how to ask are such variables…
Is it – so would you mind if i helped you out of your blouse? Oh great, that’s done… do i have permission to fondle your breasts? Great… And now your pants – can i help you with those too…
So ripping each other’s clothes off while kissing is out of the question unless you’re both ventriloquists, eh? Got ya.
It’s also interesting you only mention men asking to undress a woman. It completely fits with entirely “equal” bill that women can’t rape and are allowed to do to you whatever you want, but men need to verbally ask permission between every step.
This is an awesome article! I’ve been giving this topic a lot of thought, because yes, it can feel very awkward negotiating consent in the heat of the moment. It can be done and it can be sexy, but it might be easier if both parties are feeling playful about it.
I have a friend who refuses to take home a woman who’s been drinking (even one), because a) he doesn’t want to potentially hurt a woman who agreed while drunk, but would not have while sober and b) the laws here have stated that being intoxicated negates the ability to consent and those laws have been in place for some time. It hasn’t slowed down his ability to date or get laid at all. If he suspects she’s been drinking, he gets her number and they get together when they are both sober. He’s quite happy about the arrangement.
I’ll agree that the wording of the new FBI guidelines is problematic. I’ve been on other sites that have specifically addressed this issue. It important to note: the FBI guideline is just that. It changes what information and data the FBI collects to track the prevalence of rape. It is NOT the law. Laws pertaining to rape are handled on a state by state basis if my understanding is correct.
And what do you think the feminists who lobbied for this change will lobby for now that they have their change? Oh, yeah, the states; and they now have the FBI inflated rape numbers list to use as a weapon, for both law changes and getting more funding.
I once dated a girl who liked to (occasionally) be dominated. We discussed the whole plan ahead of time, but it was a little uncomfortable for me when she acted like she was under duress. For people who want to travel off the beaten path, prior clear communication is essential.
She had an interesting idea that maybe there should be some kind of dating school. You’d have to have a diploma before you could date. You had to be able to tell how someone is feeling, if they want something, how to break up in an open civilized manner, how to express what you want, etc.
On the other end of the spectrum, Jean M Auel (author) puts forth the idea that very young adults would get trained in sex and relationships by actually having sex/relationship with an older responsible person approved and monitored by the community. They would have a ceremony or period of training within a year of puberty. I do not think this would fly in this day and age, but the system is interesting from a community selection and involvement prospective.
I thought this was a very mature, intelligent article. There is definitely an idea that open communication during sexytimes somehow ruins the mood. Which is entirely untrue, you just have to word it well. If people were able to communicate, there would be fewer issues I believe.
I have been on both sides of this. When I started doing things with my boyfriend, there was one time when I was deeply uncomfortable about something we were doing, but I was unable to say anything, so I was just silent until it was over. Afterwards, I finally got up the courage to say that I didn’t like it, and he was totally stunned that I didn’t say anything during. He felt bad and I felt bad and it sucked.
On the other hand, the first night we did anything, we were both drunk and he continuously asked me if I was okay and if I was too drunk. It did not kill the mood, I appreciated him caring enough about me to make sure I was okay. In turn, I frankly said that I was not interested in sex, but we should keep making out. Which we did and he put his hand down my pants and it was awesome.
I can’t fathom why people think it is hard to just talk to people, especially when they are drunk.
It’s interesting to see how many people here see communication for a hook up as a turn off in most cases. As some one who is both transgender and queer (being trans especially), I cannot avoid communication during a hook up, at least not without potentially getting hurt. And quite honestly, that communication has never been a turn off for either party involved, rather made the sex a lot better. This is true even before I came out as trans! I’d feel awful hooking up with some one who felt obliged to have sex with me, because sex supposed to be fun! I definitely do not wish to deliberately hurt anyone’s feelings and by not having proper communication (and being drunk), it’s a very easy to do.