Why Can’t Straight Men Experiment, Too?

Nikki Brown wants to know why straight men don’t seem to have the same rights when it comes to sexual experimentation.

Have I mentioned how much I like sex?

Yeah, I know we don’t know each other that well. Apologies, but I do like to get straight to the point (and then wander off from there).

Another bit of personal info? I don’t really discriminate based on gender. I like eating pussy about as much as I like giving head (yes, there are women who enjoy the BJ). I’m not all that shy about it, either. I’ve been known to proposition threesomes and offer to pop lesbian cherries.

That’s not just me putting all my sexual-ness on other people. Apparently, in my real, non-bloggity-blog life, I’m the go-to if you want to discuss your fantasies regarding experimentation. Never been with a chick? Want to have a threesome with your dude? If past experience (and other people’s dreams) are any indication, you want to have it with me.

♦◊♦

Now, why am I telling you all this? I do bring it up for a reason (and, no, this post isn’t about being bisexual – that’s a whole ‘nother topic). Basically, I’m trying to highlight the fact that my sexual life involves two things:

  1. The ability to experiment.
  1. The overwhelming acceptance and comfort of others around that experimentation.

Personally? I feel pretty fucking lucky. But…What if I were a dude?

Would I feel like I had the freedom to experiment? And, more importantly, would I receive this kind of acceptance about that from others? Would they feel so comfortable with not only my sexuality, but also my expression of it? (And, believe me, I express the hell out of it.)

Hellz to the F no.

Why is it that women can experiment whenever they feel like it? Why is it that we even have a term [LUGs – Lesbians Until Graduation] for those chicks who lick pussy all through college and then go moseying on back to dudes?

Why is it that girls can make out with each other and aren’t told “oh, y’all are big fat dykes?”

And yet. With guys? Ohhhhh no. No makin’ out here. As Dan Savage has said and Hugo Switzer pointed out here, suck one cock, son, you are gay-ed for life.

♦◊♦

The problem with all this? I think we all have license to experiment.

It does not make us gay or even bisexual. It does not mean we are closeted, or we are suddenly unacceptable as dating material.

For one, as long as we are practicing safe, enthusiastic sex (you know I like that), we should be free to express our sexuality in whatever way we feel compelled – as long as we find partners who are equally compelled. We should not be subject to other people’s judgment or definitions. Period. Your sex is your sex – it’s not anyone else’s. I mean, are they having it?

For two, there may be that one person or type of person of the same sex (or opposite sex, if you’re gay) that just… gets under your skin. That one person that clicks in your brain. And you want to bang the crap out of them. Does it make you gay or bi? Maybe not. Maybe it just makes you straight-except-for-that-one-person.

See, I believe sexuality exists as a spectrum – not on hard (ha ha, I said “hard”) and fast terms. We fly a virtual rainbow flag of things that turn us on and get us off. As such, you can absolutely be straight-except-for-that-dude or straight-except-for-eating-box or even gay-except-for-that-one-lesbian.

Can you have very concrete sexual boundaries? Absolutely. Most people do. But does that mean everyone one does? Nope. Doesn’t.

♦◊♦

It is only Society, and Other People, who start to tell us the sex we’re having is wrong. It is only Culture that dictates who gets to experiment with their sex, and who has to keep it straight-and-narrow if they want to still be accepted.

Who gets the real shit end of the stick (ha ha) in this? Straight dudes. Yep. I mean the ones who identify as “straight” – not bi, queer, or pan. They should be able to experiment, but they can’t even enjoy their wife pegging them in the butt before someone starts raisin’ an eyebrow and questioning their sexuality (…and that person might even be the wife).

I mean, if a gay dude slips and falls into a vagina, does anyone tell him he’s not gay? If a straight chick sucks her friend’s titties, does anyone tell her she’s now a lesbian? Any dudes getting squeamish and saying they can’t pooooosibly date her now? Um…. nope. Experiment away, kids!

But the rest of the dudes? Nope. On the Sexuality Questionnaire, you can only check one of two boxes (and only one gets the girl kind).

As someone who takes her license to experiment very seriously, it’s not a little bit of fair or even ok. How can we promote sexual positivity, let alone open dialogue about sex if we still constrain so many people? If we only allow certain groups to express and experiment?

How do we change this phenomenon? I don’t mean dealing with bi/trans/homophobes, I mean, men AND women who do not in any way, shape, or form think of themselves as homophobic.

Be honest: Do you allow men that same license I have to experiment? Why or why not?

—Photo ell brown/Flickr

About Nikki Brown

Nikki Brown blogs anonymously about sex, relationships, life, gender, sexuality, the environment, and anything else that piques her interest or raises her hackles. In her spare time, she practices yoga, sustainable living, drinking vodka, and the art of burlesque. Her blog can be found at http://womenarefrommars.wordpress.com/

Comments

  1. Great Article says:

    Experimentation involved exploring your feelings. Men exploring their feelings is a laughable in this society. Only women and fags do that. Great article! There needs to be more people out there like you.

  2. Nikki, you have raised 100% genuine question… Human do get attraction of the same sex… if not through out their life then specific year / situation or person…
    If as a man i like same sex person well enough then i do feel or get excited with his touch… if not having sex comes in mind but i do like talking, eating and drinking with him… i am sure if there was no conceptual social resistance of being straight then i would have experimented…

    I believe everyone is bisexual and later social training decides what to think (action) and what no to…

    enjoy !

  3. You have the right to be who you want to be and do what makes you happy, with and without backlash. Don’t blame other people for your fears and for misrepresenting yourself or taking advantage of people you choose to be dishonest with. Backlash and discrimination (in all facets of life) is a strong component of this world, that will never completely diminish no matter how many minds one change’s via propaganda. People receive backlash because of physical appearance, culture, criminal background blah blah blah blah blah blah blah…..

  4. How about we just accept everything that everyone does in society with no social backlash and let’s how even more destructive this world already becomes. Isn’t this already hell on earth for the most part with the high crime rates, extensive spread of diseases and stds, parent-less children, children killing their parents, parents killing their children……who cares what you do sexually…….the only person you should worry about caring is the person you plan on being involved with sexually and/or emotionally. You should be honest with that person. There’s always going to be some form of discrimination. This world will never be entirely fair to everyone or anyone, so who the F cares about backlash. Like another poster said before, deal with it. I’m a minority and a woman and consequently I will always experience some kind of discrimination SO NEXT!!!!! GET OVER IT PLEASE!!!!

  5. I kissed a boy…and I didn’t like it. Not into men or sexually experimenting with them either. I don’t have a problem with that because its my identity. Do you have a problem with my “heteronormativity?” (I don’t think you do but don’t call me a breeder-I can’t have kids anymore lol!)

  6. Thank you thank you thank you for writing this. I’m a bi trans guy who has been with a straight cis guy for six years. People get *really* confused when they find out that he identifies as straight because, well, he’s been in love with a dude for six years. But, it’s exactly like you mentioned above – he’s all about the women…except for me. Love works in funny ways, and the love of his life just happened to be a guy. It’s not at all what he was expecting, but there you have it. Also, we’re in an open relationship and all of his other partners are female (and generally very feminine as well), which actually makes me feel rather special.

    • This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. This right here. I honestly wonder how many more people would let special relationships (maybe not even serious ones, but at least fun, eye-opening ones!) into their lives if we didn’t have the social backlash – if it was ok. Of course, as Gabby mentioned above, this would also mean a lot of other things would be wayyy more awesome too… But I digress.

      OF COURSE this does NOT mean everyone should now experiment. OF COURSE many people are straight and have no desire to do so – and that’s fantastic too! That’s the whole point! That we are all able to feel comfortable with the relationships and sex we have, and are privileged to not be judged for it. Glad you enjoyed this! 😀

  7. This post is…true but fairly shallow and unhelpful. Why don’t you explore the patriarchal notions of “feminine” being lesser than “masculine,” and how that manifests itself in social acceptance of women taking on a “masculine” role (sex with women, wearing pants), but aversion to men taking on a “feminine” role (sex with men, wearing dresses). It’s one of the best examples of how patriarchy hurts men too; viewing some traits as lesser than others restricts our natural personalities, and confines men to rigid regulations of accepted masculinity.

    • Ha! Shallow, eh? Fair enough. And I’d say, given your argument, I’d agree with you. Absolutely the issues of feminine as lesser is HUGE for homophobia and, in the same vein, for the aversion for men to experiment/gaying men immediately. I mean, WOAH you did something only ladies do, and they’re lesser, so why would you EVER do that, therefore, here, I now place you in the “gay” box because that’s also lesser. Yet the point I was making here *was* to hopefully get people thinking on a, well, perhaps more shallow level – but I’d prefer to say less defined level. Trying to say “hey, I can do this, why can’t men?” and asking people to contemplate that by itself, before really getting into the why/how dark underbelly of heteronormativity and gender roles. Your point, however, is well taken, and exactly where the conversation gets more serious. Thank you!

  8. Someone saying:
    “I had sex with someone of the same sex but I was only experimenting so I am still 100% straight”
    is like a man saying:
    “I had sex with women but I was only experimenting so I am still 100% virgin”

  9. Those who are a 0 in Kinsey scale are straight,
    those who are a 6 are gay/lesbians
    and all those who are 1-2-3-4-5 are bisexuals.

    You can call it experimentation, a phase, just fun, whatever, it’s just self-delusion.

    How about sleeping with me and then claim it was just experimentation, a phase, or just for fun.
    The fact doesn’t change, I shagged you 🙂

    So what’s wrong with identifying as bisexual.
    Yes, if someone enjoys having SEX with both SEXes, then that person is biSEXual.
    Claiming experimentation or a having a phase, are lame excuses. Yes you are biSEXual, deal with it.

    It seems there is bisexuality-phobia around.

  10. Wild Bill says:

    Well, as a straight man, I feel I am qualified to answer this question: there’s no desire to experiment for most straight men. Not saying it’s bad or they can’t identify as straight if they do. I just don’t find men attractive. You could argue it being due to a heteronormative society, but honestly? Even if society was not heteronormative as it is, I don’t think most men who identify as straight would suddenly be willing to have sex with other men. We just don’t find dudes sexually desirable, that’s all. Of course I can’t speak for all straight men, but at least in my experience that’s why we identify as straight in the first place.

  11. I agree with this article wholeheartedly. Good for you for writing about it

  12. Religion and parents set it pretty firmly in your head that homosexuality is evil, this perception is carried by society but not to lesbians much… mainly towards gay men… It’s really difficult for a lot of lesbians to really even truly know what real hatred feels like, they get the jist of it all, but often never lived it. Not saying I want them to, but sometimes it would be easier if they really did fully and truly know how demeaning it feels.

    Religion though, has certainly limited my life sexual experiences, to nothing… I felt pressured to have a girlfriend so I tried to date one when I was 15, but it only left her disappointed because I couldn’t get aroused to have sex with her… At the same time a friend of mine, he came over daily, I knew he liked me a lot, wanted to get close to me, I was like a deer in headlights, unable to love back because I couldn’t comprehend it as something that’s allowed, it’s strictly forbidden… even when it was him coming onto me, it’s like I was scared that he would know I am gay and tell people. I suppose it’s easy for lesbians and some gays that didn’t grow up under religious oppression to usually say “forget that religious bs, I’m going to love anyone” but it really is something that inhibits your ability to express your feelings, to welcome others near you… or deal with another guy who is in that state of sexual repression, unable to accept your own love, scared of being disowned by their parents. These fears are especially strong in guys. Hopefully some day religion crumbles to the ground so people can be free, in body and mind alike. There was no good in the rejection I inflicted on this boy that loved me, at the time he was abused by his parents, he really had no one in life, and yet he really loved me and I even though I loved him with all my heart, it was frozen by mental facilities that I wouldn’t break from for a decade to come… he later turned to hard drugs and eventually arrested for meth use. I only blame myself for what happened to him.

  13. Thank you for this article,
    I’m a bisexual man, I have a wonder girl friend and a beautiful son. Only but a few months ago did I openly admit my attraction to men also. This came to the light when I woke up in a detox unit from a wicked bender, my secret sexuality kept me in a dark place of addiction. From my recent experience I’m finding out that the most homophobic of all my friends are the most curious and ask the most questions ?? I’m very firm in the rejection of suck one dick and your gay for life.. I find it much more fun when there are women involved in the situation !! Adding an extra play toy just make the posibilitys endless !! Sorry girls but men do give better head !!!

  14. …..cont as sexy and a man being into another. That’s fine and dandy,but don’t go about saying your straight to chicks! That pisses them off. I know. I’m sorry,but men are the one’s who oggle over two chicks(they have to look a certain way for them to enjoy). I don’t want my girl to be into girls. I want her to be straight. I have been offered blow jobs and everything else from “straight” men and had to hold myself from punching them. These were married men with kids. Stop hiding behind your wives and girlfriends. I am a dude and I could care less if your bi,curious or what. My cousin is bi and is. The gay community has it’s share of hetero and biphobia. Not many want to date a guy who is bi or what have you because they don’t want to be left for a woman. Some women don’t want to sit there,have kids and one day have her husband say…..I am into dudes or I want to experiment. No man nor woman is suppose to support their spouse in that manner. I would be pissed if my wife wanted to experiment with other women or other men for that matter. It would seem like a huge life from the get go.

  15. Men can experiment. There many that do,but choose not to tell their wives or girlfriends. So what,there’s biphobia. There are phobias about “ugly,”fat” fat,”stupid”,Black,White,Asian,Latin,and Middle_Eastern people. They can’t exactly hide what they are. They go through life and deal with it. If a woman want a man who doesn’t have ANY relations with another man,that’s her right. There are too many stories about some dude who left his wife with some guy. It’s not a woman’s fault that being into girls is seen as sexy and a man being into

  16. Madeline Kay says:

    A straight guy once told me something that really sheds light on this. He said to me “hey I said I was straight but I am not an asshole,” to explain how he was okay being intimate with me even though I am intersex and a transwoman, cause I am still a woman and he’s not into guys. I always remembered that cause I am not usually attracted to Gay or Bi men and seem to attract straight men only. I have only dated straight guys in all my long term relationships so I can vouch for them. Many didn’t know I was intersex and transgender until after meeting me and they were still okay with it, because they had met the female first and not my genitals.

  17. I dont want to have sex with a bi man, the risk is very very great and more than I want to deal with. Just being real. I know a bi man who wants to bareback me. I dont think soooo!!!

    • NickMostly says:

      You’re not are more risk because he’s bisexual – it’s an irrational fear (and by irrational, I mean disproportionate to the actual risk posed). I think a lot of that fear comes from the 80s and 90s when HIV was presented as a “gay” disease, which allowed it to progress unabated and undetected among heterosexual men and women for more than a decade.
      We also have this stereotype of gay men as being more promiscuous, but that’s not true for everyone and there’s no reason to think it’s true for guys who identify as bi. Would you rather have sex with a completely heterosexual guy who’s had fifty partners in the last year, or a bisexual guy who’s had three, two of whom were women? The additional risk in the situation you propose is not that he identifies as bi, it’s that he wants to bareback; that’s risky no matter who is doing it.

      But ultimately, it’s your body and your call. And if “just being real” means you’re owning your prejudice, then more power to you. Most people aren’t self-aware enough to realize when a position they hold is based more on fear than on fact.

      • Oh, man, NickMostly, you took the words right out of my mouth. Right. On. And thanks! 😉

      • I am still pissed that I can’t donate blood because of this perceived risk. Because I’ve had sex with a man who has had sex with a man sometime since 1980. And I continue to have sex with that man, because he is my husband. This makes us both ineligible – unqualified – to donate blood, even though we are both HIV-negative, and as we are monogamous, it’s unlikely that either of us will contract HIV through sex. This makes my blood boil (pun intended) whenever I see a sign asking me to donate blood to save lives. Why, thanks, I’d love to, but you’ve told me I can’t.

        And because of the stigma Nikki has written about here, I can’t even tell anyone about it, except my closest friends (and you anonymous web-dwellers). Our parents aren’t likely to understand. Neither are my coworkers when the blood drive van shows up outside work. I have to make up some dumb excuse so as to avoid airing my & my husband’s sexual details to everyone. (Mumble mumble, something about my thyroid meds, mumble mumble.) PISSES. ME. OFF.

        {end of tangentially related rant}

        • I don’t think your rant is tangential at all. I have the same reaction to all that shiz. It makes me almost not give blood, but then I remember who that actually hurts, so I give it, but it still makes me infuriated. Especially since HOW LONG has it been since we’ve realized HIV/AIDS is NO LONGER the gay man’s problem????

          Oh, homophobia. How deep and subtle you can be.

          And then, of course, your personal issue. Should you be a gay man whose husband is also gay, then people would at least feel pressure, in this day and age, to “accept” your lifestyle (I fervently dislike using the term “accept” to deal with ANYONE’s sexuality). But, of course, instead they feel free to question his sexuality, your sexuality, your sex life, marriage, etc etc etc as if it were their business and something that were, clearly, wrong.

          I don’t think your rant is tangential because it is, once again, how this shiz actually operates in people’s daily lives. And it’s bullcrap.

  18. dr_eats_babies says:

    This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: “Hammer nails all your life, nobody calls you a carpenter, but you suck one dick…” — Jesus

  19. Personally, I find this article hypocritical and not very convincing. Right when I got to the tagline – “Nikki Brown blogs anonymously about sex, relationships, life, gender, sexuality, the environment, and anything else that piques her interest or raises her hackles.”

    If you are so free to express yourself sexually in every way you feel compelled, then why do you blog anonymously?

    Men are as free to experiment sexually as they want to be.

    There are bisexual men out there, period end of story. And I’m sure there are men who experiment once or twice.

    • NickMostly says:

      Between bi-phobia and bisexual invisibility, I think it raises questions about a real problem.

      If you read the letters to sex advice columnists, one of the themes of the questions is, “am I gay?” Typically the person posing the question has had some experience where there was another naked man (in the room, on the screen, etc) and they weren’t repulsed by it. In fact, they may have even been turned on a little. To me it seems simple: if you are a man and you want to fuck (or be fucked by) men to the exclusion of women, you’re probably gay. If you want to fuck men and women, you’re probably somewhere on the bi-sexual spectrum. If you want to fuck women to the exclusion of men, you’re probably straight. Much was made of a recent study (since repudiated by one of its authors for sample bias) that claimed male bisexuality didn’t exist – that those men identifying as such were semi-closeted gays. When you compound this with some gay men using the “bi-sexual” label as a stepping stone to their gay identity, it’s easy to see why there is mistrust about someone who identifies as bi-sexual.

      The problem is that this mistrust exists as a sort of bi-phobia on the part of men and women. For some women, my having consensually touched another man’s erect penis automatically disqualifies me as a potential partner, even though I identify as straight and have no desire to fuck other men, let alone form a romantic relationship with one. For some men, I’m a homo, or suspected homo, and any sign of me not being repulsed by male sexuality is evidence of that.

      I think, for the most part, all but the most homophobic men don’t really care what I’ve done in the past or who I prefer to do in the present. But there are plenty of women – specifically those considering me as a potential romantic partner – who do and for whom any past “experimentation” is considered a deal killer. While there are assuredly straight men out there who also see it as a deal killer for a woman who has “experimented,” I suspect the proportion is far fewer. There’s no stereotype of two guys making out being hot, whereas the obvious hotness of two girls making out is a common trope in our beer commercials and our media, and Joe Francis has built a fucking multi-million dollar empire on it.

      • YES! This, exactly.

        I mean, the first paragraph is a lil wonky for me. I tend to think of sexuality on a spectrum (*tips hat to Kinsey*) and that some people can and do blur the lines, but would prefer to identify as straight or gay. I think that’s perfectly fine – we should all be able to define our sexuality as we see fit, and that doesn’t we can’t use “experiment” to mean “tried it with someone who was outside my identified sexuality.” Does this mean everyone should? No. In fact, I think the vast majority of people stick within their definition, and/or are actually closeted (which brings up whole ‘other issues) – but that shouldn’t mean *everyone* has to.

        However – the points remain well articulated as to why people take issue with it, and how it translates into how people who do this kind of experimenting are perceived – and the intense double standard there.

        The last point, about women deciding you’re undatable, is absolutely on-target and, in my opinion, absolutely crap. For why, I’d check out this post: http://www.metanotherfrog.com/2011/07/12/bi-men-dateable/

        Personally, I think guy-on-guy IS hot, and I think a past with experimentation is awesome. Naturally, that means I’m also into dudes who are honest with both themselves and their partners, and are not ashamed of their sexual past.

        • NickMostly says:

          I shouldn’t have framed it solely as who you want to shag, as it ignores the question of who you want to form romantic relationships with. But I think the analysis is fair, if you keep it restricted to how someone who doesn’t know if they are gay or bi (based on things they’ve done or found hot) might look at it. But if a guy who occasionally makes out with a dude but only dates women chooses to identify as straight I see no problem with that.

          I must say, Cassidy’s position in the link you posted reminds me of a guy who was only attracted to virgins. The thought of sexing up a woman who has had a penis other than his own inside of her makes him sick. He described his preference as an “orientation,” and felt it was just as valid as someone identifying as gay or bi. I see a lot of similarities in the two positions.

    • Again, this wasn’t about bisexuality. It was about men who identify as straight and choose to experiment outside that definition. I think it’s awesome to do so if you feel compelled. Moreover, it’s a huge double standard that women have no problem doing so, but men are highly stigmatized for it, or end up with people defining their sexuality for them. Please see NickMostly’s excellent response.

      That said, your point that I blog anonymously made me laugh – because you’re totally right and I’m surprised no one else called me out on it! I have questioned my anonymity at times in the past, and will in the future but I do it now because I blog about my friends (no real names of course) and people I am crushing on sometimes (very rarely, actually) and I don’t want my friends to be irritated with me (because if all our friends read my blog, obviously it wouldn’t matter if I used their real names or not) and I don’t want people I dig to know sometimes. Things like this, however? Oh, everyone who knows me knows my thoughts.

  20. Abso-effing-lutely!!!!

    Everything you said above?

    Word.

    *grin*

  21. Here’s a serious thought experiment regarding the sexual experimentation, which may or may not be based on real people and events:
    “Roger” was adopted as a baby into a family into which two unrelated (to him and to each other) sisters were also adopted as infants. During his teen years and beyond, Roger regularly fucked his sisters with their consent and active participation. He reported, at the time, that his sisters provided him with terrific sexual experiences. His sisters were equally enthusiastic. Roger also had numerous sexual relationships with various women outside of his family. During this time, Roger also casually experimented with “light” homosexual experiences.
    After leaving home, Roger at some point determined that he was actually fully homosexual. For the next 5-10 years thereafter, he entered into a series of long and short term homosexual relationships. He stated, at the time, that these homosexual relationships were vastly superior and preferable to any heterosexual encounter he had ever had.
    Roger then found a (new-age) spiritual path, and after extensive study, became a (new-age) spiritual teacher. He decided at this point that he was actually predominantly heterosexual, and that he would commit himself to conventional, long-term heterosexual relationships. He thereafter entered into a relationship with an attractive female spiritual teacher, and the two married. They produced several children. There is no information available regarding the prior (and indeed, current) sexual preferences, practices and proclivities of Roger’s wife. Also
    Roger has kept his sexual past a secret from his spiritual pupils. He presents himself to them as a married heterosexual.
    Questions: What do you think? Is Roger a reliable heterosexual partner, or is he actually “gay”? Can someone with his sexual past be a “good man,” especially if he keeps his past a secret? Is there a duty of disclosure to his pupils, to whom he preaches an ascetic, Eastern heterosexual (i.e., Buddhist) path? Would the straight female readers of this blog enter into a long-term relationship with someone like Roger? Is Roger “damaged goods”?

    • Julie Gillis says:

      I’ll play (and all answers are according to my opinions and my own personal hang ups! Yes! I have some!)

      Questions: What do you think? Is Roger a reliable heterosexual partner, or is he actually “gay”?
      I think Roger is bisexual, possibly a genderqueer type.

      Can someone with his sexual past be a “good man,” especially if he keeps his past a secret?
      Possibly yes, but lying and hiding information that he knows would influence an opinion is unethical I think.

      Is there a duty of disclosure to his pupils, to whom he preaches an ascetic, Eastern heterosexual (i.e., Buddhist) path?
      I personally think there is a duty to disclose, if for nothing else to provide his pupils with a model for change. Also, because being found out is shitty PR.

      Would the straight female readers of this blog enter into a long-term relationship with someone like Roger?
      I would possibly. The sister thing freaks me out I still squick at anything incest related.
      The male/female thing doesn’t bother me though.

      Is Roger “damaged goods”?
      My gut instinct is yes, because he’s shifted gears rapidly and I squick at the incest thing. And because he apparently hides a piece of his life from people he knows wouldn’t approve. But, I don’t know him, don’t see how he operates in real life, don’t know the reasons he’s shifted and am aware that my cultural and familial upbringing has me place a bias for consistency.

      My turn, are you speaking about someone we all would recognize?

      • I had written a fairly lengthy response, but then the %^&* page re-loaded spontaneously and wiped it out. Aargh! Here’s a far shorter one.

        You very well might recognize this person were I to reveal any identifying data, which for obvious reasons I won’t.

        Thanks for your response! Your reaction makes me think that perhaps men can experiment rather freely after all without being blacklisted by women. At least among the progressive types who read this blog.

        While incest is generally very, very creepy to me, the facts of this case study are different to my mind. Weird, yes, but not necessarily taboo.

      • I tend to agree with Julie – aside from the term “damaged goods”. Another topic I want to think about, eventually, is how we go about forgiveness and redemption – but here I would say it’s about the disclosure thing. Does he really need to disclose this? Maybe, maybe not… I think it’s important for all people to be able to discuss their sexual histories with their partners, IF their partners want to know.

        As for his students? Is it their business? I want to say no, as long as he’s not preaching something he’s *currently* not practicing.

        As for his sexual history? The incest thing is kinda weird and I wonder about underlying issues (because the stigma around incest is so huge – what motivated him to originally overcome it? What does he think of it now? Is he shameful, or happy about it?), the rest of it I am cool with.

        • Peter Houlihan says:

          About the incest thing, I’m not sure that stigma should neccessarily be worked into that: if he was a kid he may not even have been aware of it. I heard one story from a guy about how he and his sister did all kinds of things before they even knew what sex was, but then stopped when she had a sex ed class and decided it was something much more serious than they had thought.

          Also, is it really that weird? Anyone play doctor when they were a kid? From talking with a few people I know, I suspect some degree of childhood sexual experience (with other children) is pretty common.

          On a slightly unrelated note I remember finding a box of resource manuals for teachers in the school our scout hall was in. They covered almost every subject from bullying, to kids with toilet trouble. I noticed at the time that one was missing from the box, so I looked on the index at the side and it was the one about incest. I don’t know why it was missing, but since it was a catholic national primary school (these represent the majority of primary schools in Ireland) I have my suspicions that it was removed to avoid corrupting the innocent or some such crap.

    • Peter Houlihan says:

      Honestly, I think only Rodger can answer those questions, all except the last one, its too open, vague and subjective for any one individual to “call.” Maybe god?

  22. Peter Houlihan says:

    Thank you for writing this.

    Thank you for being graphic,
    Thank you for being funny,
    Thank you for being honest 🙂

    The whole thing reminds me of a conversation a group of guys I was in venture scouts with had. We had fallen out of drill, the younger scouts were playing games in the school hall and we were in the teacher’s canteen planning camping trips and hikes (read: slacking off and talking about the kind of things teenage boys do). We were talking about lesbians and whether any of the girls we knew might be and the topic got around to girls experimenting (by which we specifically meant dabbling in homosexuality). Suddenly, one guy in the group about a year older than me asked exactly the question Nikki asked above: “Why can’t guys do this kind of thing?” -silence and nervous laughter- “No seriously, why are girls able to do all this kind of stuff and we aren’t.” The reaction was immediate, everyone else in the room looked at each other nervously to see if anyone was taking it seriously and laughed a little to show that they weren’t. A couple of people asked if it was only him that was wondering. The question was dropped and we got back onto safe topics like hot lesbians.

  23. Odd observsations.

    Heterosexual sex:
    Guys are regarded as “players” women are regarded as “sluts”.

    Homosexual sex:
    Women are regarded as “sexually free” men are regarded as “freaks”.

    (But of course bear in mind that those four conditions are centered around the ideas that woman/woman sex is okay because that’s what men want to see, man/man sex is disgusting because women don’t want to see that, which are both born from the idea that men are overcome with uncontrollable heterosexual lust and women have no heterosexual lust.)

    So it seems to me that when people go around talking about how guys are so much more free to have sex and women aren’t its pretty safe to say those people are talking about heterosexual sex. And even then, in my experience, the player/slut dynamic is changing where women are getting freed up and men are getting locked down (because it seems to me that yesterdays “players” are today’s “pervs/dogs” and yesterdays “sluts” are today’s “sexually liberated”).

    Fucked up all around I say.

    • Julie Gillis says:

      Yes. Yes it is.

    • Peter Houlihan says:

      That’s possible, could I suggest another possibility: Its more important to censure men’s sexuality because within gender roles men are sexually wound up like a spring. Men are taught from the moment that they learn the word sex that to be a man means to be a stud. Women are taught the opposite. As a result channeling female sexuality becomes less important: its not supposed to exist. Channeling men’s sexuality becomes paramount. No masturbation, no extra-marital sex, certainly no gay sex! The point of the whole thing is to land him in a house with a wife and couple of kids before he knows whats happening, let alone works out whether he likes guys or not.

      I don’t want to imply that things are any better for women: being told that you aren’t supposed to want or enjoy sex can’t be fun. But its equally true that having your sexuality defined down a narrow channel isn’t exactly privilege, or empowerment.

      I think things have changed alot in this regard: my generation doesn’t regard masturbation as any kind of sin, extra marital sex is the norm (thanks condoms!) and women are increasingly being recognised as having every bit as much of a libido as guys do. Male freedom to experiment (rather than freedom to be gay) is just another step on a long road.

      • How about:

        Male freedom to experiment (in addition to freedom to be gay) is just another step on a long road?

        Because guys that are gay aren’t exactly getting the best of treatment either. But your overall point stands. Guys need the sexual freedom that we have supposedly have already.

        • Peter Houlihan says:

          Oh completely, I just meant that even some folk who recognise gay rights and don’t find it repulsive still seem to turn their nose up at bisexuality a little.

    • Good points, and you’re starting to get into the whole underlying theory that I didn’t bring up…

  24. Who is this “we” that is only allowing “certain groups to express and experiment?” I think straight men who want to experiment — and there are many — are just as able as women are; they just don’t seem to need a cheering crowd egging them on with “You go, girl” or talk of sexual “empowerment.” They just, you know, do it. No “loud and proud” required.

    Are they suffering because they can’t talk about it with “the guys” over a few beers at the baseball game? I don’t think so. If I were sexually experimenting with women I wouldn’t necessarily talk about it over Lemon Drops on a girls’ night, either. It’s kind of private, and I don’t feel weird about keeping it private. Why does everyone need to know what we’re doing in our sexual lives? Except, as you say, our partners, and I would hope a man or woman who had “experimentation” in his or her past (or present) was smart and aware enough to be able to pick a partner who wouldn’t be turned off by that — and might even be turned on.

    Yes — as a society we tend to be much more accepting of women having sex with women than men having sex with men. But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t happening — or that there aren’t a lot of happy experimental men walking around who carry that delightful secret.

    • I think you have missed the author’s point. Saying men “can” experiment with other men sexually doesn’t change the fact that it is more stigmatized and comes with more (social) risk than for women.

      Yes, there may be a group of men who experiment with other men and keep it secret *and* are happy to keep it secret, and we might well assume they have no lingering feelings of shame about it. What about those who would experiment with other men but for the stigma? Those who would experiment but for the risk of being caught? Those who DO experiment and feel shame because of an internalized message that having a sexual experience with a man (or, even worse, enjoying it!) makes them homosexual. And what about those who do experiment with other men and would like to be open about it, with other partners or just in general?

      For some it may be a “delightful secret,” but for many others it is off-limits, leads to feelings of shame and guilt, and comes with very real risks.

      • Exactly. The point is, not everyone needs to yell from the rooftops, but talking about it in general terms makes it more safe for people. Hiding sex in the closet clearly hasn’t worked before, and it certainly doesn’t work in our sex-obsessed culture.

  25. David Byron says:

    You’re missing out on one rather obvious thing. To be able to experiment with sex you need to be able to have sex at all. For a lot of guys that’s not realistic. If a woman wants sex she can get sex. And she doesn’t have to worry about her partner refusing because she did something slightly wrong. You’re living in a swimming pool asking someone who lives in a desert if they ever did the backstroke.

    Second point I am sure you realise which is that men’s roles are far more restrictive than women’s. I assume that was kinda the point you were making with this article (so thanks for that).

    • Julie Gillis says:

      If a woman wants sex she can get sex. I hear this. I know women, myself included that would say that’s not always the case. At least where a quality lay is involved.

      Sounds like women could just go stand on the street, drop trou and say, come at it boys, and she’d get a lover. I don’t know if that’s true. Maybe it is. Maybe I could go to any bar, stare at some guy, motion to the bathroom and get laid. Sounds terrible for me, good for him (maybe).

      I would say, it’s likely we could get “someone” to fuck us, but that dude on the corner is probably not going to be the person I want to experiment with.

      Just because someone would plough me doesn’t mean I’d find the experience to be worth investing experimental time in. Finding a partner to trust to be able to experiment with, enjoy trying things with, feeling safe enough to mess up, that takes more work, David, at least in my experience.

      • I agree with Julie. I think anyone, regardless of gender, can get laid if all they care about is getting laid.

        Plus, I think perhaps your comment is one-sided, David. Sure, there are some women who refuse men for doing “one thing” wrong, but look at the flip side. A lot of women aren’t having the sex they want because they feel like it would be “slutty”. There is the other double standard that says a man can go out an get laid whenever and as often as he wants (e.g. the whole “player” thing) and a woman can’t do that. And to that the whole social narrative of the dude who just uses women for sex.

        I would never apply the “player” to all men, or say that most men use women for sex. I think generalizing like that isn’t true. Plus, the bottom line isn’t to argue who gets sex more, my point was more that women are allowed to explore other genders in their sex lives with a greater degree of freedom and acceptance, while men, in general, do not. I think THAT double standard isn’t fair. That is outside an argument over who’s getting more sex, or can get it more easily, which I think has far more to do with other things that do not include gender.

        • i don't believe you says:

          You compared apples to oranges. “Sluttiness” doesn’t hinder a woman from getting sex. It hinders a woman from getting a relationship. So it’s not the flipside to “one thing wrong” at all.

          • You missed my point: Some women do not engage in sex because they feel like others will think they’re slutty – i.e. they slut-shame themselves out of sex. “Sluttiness” therefore does keep women from *having* sex based on other people’s perception of her.

            Second, I actually disagree. Ever heard a dude say “hey she’s wayyy too loose” (did that just sound old-fashioned?)

            Regardless, I don’t think this is pertinent nor helpful, and I’ll say again: “That is outside an argument over who’s getting more sex, or can get it more easily, which I think has far more to do with other things that do not include gender.”

            • i don't believe you says:

              I didn’t miss the point. You are missing the key nuances. Self slut shaming is a choice SHE makes whereas “ one thing wrong” is not a choice HE makes. Secondly waiting 2 dates often gets her having sex out of the slutzone, but “one thing wrong” probably means NEVER for him. Big difference!

              The flipside of “sluttiness” for straight men is actually “gay” . You went hardcore using pegging in your example, but even a finger up the butt while being fellated raises eyebrows.

              And I’ve never personally heard of a man that wouldn’t sleep with a girl because she was too easy. I think such a situation is extremely rare.

              Finally when you pose the question “why can’t Why Can’t Straight Men Experiment, Too?
              Stigma is one reason, but ACCESS surely is another. Think about how many men desire a threesome, but haven’t had one. The main hold up is probably opportunity more so than taboo.

      • i don't believe you says:

        Julie,

        Tsk. Tsk. You should know better.

        Why does a woman when confronted with the absolutely undeniable truth that she has incredible access to sex immediately dismiss it with the EXTREME of bathroom sex?
        Most casual sex is not bathroom sex!

        Once again we see the “I love the male body”/ “enthusiastic consent” talk is just that… talk. First of all, you mentioned hanging out at the gym so I’m sure you would do very well on a street. Take that either way. Lol.
        Secondly, you ASSUME that guys would ONLY agree to offers of PIV ploughing. But that is soooo not the case. Most guys would be more than willing to provide cunnilingus in return for fellatio.. for example. Men are more than amenable to all sorts of sexual arrangements like this, but finding that out would require you/women to actually follow their own advice and talk to guys about sex. Scary isn’t it?

        • Julie Gillis says:

          Where is this sex that I have access to? I’m serious. As a married poly person, and yeah my bod is good , I don’t get a lot of takers. I meet men who like me but are put off by the poly. I work with men who I cannot for the life of me imagine saying yes to sex. I don’t go to bars to pick up men. Maybe if I did I could pick up a guy. Maybe I could get laid like that. And sure hed maybe want to give me pleasure. Having had one night stands in the past, I don’t enjoy them. So even if there is a supply of sex out there somewhere for me, my guess is I wouldn’t like it, so that s not really what I’d call power, the powers to have something I don’t like. What good is that? As for talking and listening, I do. All the time, not here mInd you but on fb or dating sites or at my show about sex. And I hear a lot of men wanting sex sure of all kinds, and a whole lot of them want girlfriends more than casual sEx. At least the men I hear from. Maybe if I were single and not 42 I’d have more options or maybe if people saw me less as a maternal figure, who knows. I do hear from women who can’t seem to find this easy sex you speak of. They aren’t ugly. I think it’s harder than you think.

          • i don't believe you says:

            Since, I know at least two married women around your age who have multiple friends with benefits on the DL, I struggle to imagine that a woman like you (with a good bod AND an approving husband) can’t easily find FWB’s.

            Are you looking for a boyfriend in addition to your husband? Cuz when I hear poly rather than open marriage that’s what I think. The latter term is magnitudes sexier to single guys. I can DEFINITELY see how the image of being in a triad would scare men away, but otherwise you are smack dab in the middle of MILFness so I’m scratching my head.

            When I was in college most of my flings were 20 somethings…from campus… of course, but two of the casual relationships that I had with were a woman in her early 30’s and another that was approaching 40. I don’t think age is the real issue here.

            And once again, by easy sex I DON’T mean one night stands!

            You and you’re not ugly friends are doing things wrong.

            • Julie Gillis says:

              Apparently.

            • Julie Gillis says:

              Not loOking for a triad. Not looking for the dl. Looking for a person I find attractive who views me as such and is a lover not a fuck buddy and who accepts knowing that my husband is part of the equation. My current peer group doesn’t meet that need and I’m not Interestd in bar sex/ pick up s

              • i don't believe you says:

                No triad is a plus for you.
                No DL is a plus for you.
                No bar hopping is a BIG negative for you.
                What is the difference in your mind and heart between a fuck buddy, a friend with benefits and a lover? And where are you going to meet “eligible” guys, since you don’t like bars?

                • Julie Gillis says:

                  Might be best to take this conversation/dating coaching situation off line. I don’t feel cool about placing my bar/people/hook up habits here past this point. Email me if you truly are curious, otherwise you’ve given me good things to think about.

      • DavidByron says:

        That’s my point. You girls can afford to be picky like that.

        • Julie Gillis says:

          I can’t wait to get home to respond to this

        • Julie Gillis says:

          Picky like what? Picky like wanting to be attracted to my sexual partner? Picky like wanting to have some basic chemistry and friendliness with them? Picky like wanting to deal with timing issues?

          Cause, yes, I suppose that makes me picky. And it limits the pool, so that “sex” is not available at any given moment in the day.

          I think, quite honestly, if I went up to a man on the street and asked him “Will you come to my car and fuck me in the back seat.” There would be a high likelihood that that man would think daft, batty, crazy, and possibly unhinged.

          I do realize that men’s drives are, in many ways, different then women’s on average. And that an 18 year old boy would be highly likely to say yes to any and all available sex, no matter if he really liked the woman or felt a real chemistry for her. He’d possibly wind up having a decent time if decent means “orgasm.”

          But if decent for me means something else, I may have less chance of getting it than that boy would his easy whatever lay.

          If bad sex is available, to me that’s the same as no sex. No, I”m not worried about pregnancy or STDs. The pill and condoms take care of that for the most part. I’m not even that worried about danger. I just don’t want to spend an hour or more having bad sex. I mean I could go to bed with a guy that I found utterly smelly, unattractive and yes, technically I could “get laid” and “sex” would be available to me.

          Bad sex with someone I have little to no connection or chemistry (and I don’t mean love), is worse than no sex at my age. I suppose that makes me a “girl” in your book, which I find a bit patronizing but I’m used to it from you, my dove:)

          • This entire thread on “women can get sex whenev” and “men can’t” is really interesting.

            Ever stop to think about what it means? I also hear “men always want sex” and “women are always so choosey and don’t want it as often as they can get it”. I call bullshit to that old cliche.

            Second, it’s another cliche to think women can just ask for it. The idea that men are SO READY TO FUCK ANYONE that a girl can just ask. I don’t buy that *as a generalization*. I think there are men that are that way, but there are also women who are that way too. There are men that are that way AND embrace it, but there are also others who feel they can’t. Same with women – and maybe even more so with women, as men can embrace that mentality and be a “stud” but a woman who does can be seen as a “slut”.

            • i don't believe you says:

              Arghhh.
              Not every cliche is false. One of the biggest wedge issues that keeps men suspicious of female sexuality is the continued and loud denial that you do not have much better access to sex than men. Men aren’t the ones who need so stop and think about what “women can get sex whenev” and “men can’t” truly means!

        • Julie Gillis says:

          One more example.

          I assume you (IDBY, but the general “You” as male) are straight. I assume you do not want to get your sex from men.

          You have, currently, access to lots more sex than you have so long as you are willing to sleep with men. Go to a gay bar, bathhouse, truckstop, gloryholes, craigslist, Grindr.

          But, if the thought of having sex with men turns you off, if it would be sex that would not be worth having, then I say you are being picky, in the sense that you COULD have it.

          I COULD have sex with a bunch of men I find really to be a turn off, physically I could do it, and yes, I’d be getting sex, but if it was a turn off, why do it?

          • i don't believe you says:

            Aw Cmon’ when we say “picky” we don’t mean orientation. You know this. When we say picky mean stuff like who picks up the check… which for whatever reason matters to plenty of women. Why don’t you write a post on the topic of gender and sexual access? I’m sure everybody could learn something.

            • Julie Gillis says:

              Well, I”m still suffering a bit of battle fatigue at this point 😉 Maybe I’ll write one round abouts Valentine’s Day.
              FYI, the check part does not matter a shit to me. I like to split checks. Believe or not IDBY, some people are just not that focused on money, cars, external “typical” status stuff.

            • Julie Gillis says:

              And you didn’t respond to the point about quality of experience. I COULD have sex with a man I’m not attracted to, but why would I? Why would you? Just to get your dick wet? Even if you felt gross afterward? That’s what I don’t understand, and I am willing to believe it’s a fundamental bio difference, but I’ve polled a few of my younger male counterparts (obviously the sample is skewed) and asked them to be honest. Most of them really want to at least like the lady they fuck. Anyway, FWIW, men say no too. Women say yes more often than expected. Cats and dogs occasionally get along! Cats and owls can be friends!

    • NickMostly says:

      You’re missing out on one rather obvious thing. To be able to experiment with sex you need to be able to have sex at all. For a lot of guys that’s not realistic. If a woman wants sex she can get sex.

      That’s probably only true if each party is being indiscriminate about who they shag. But hey, for fifty quid just about any guy can get laid as well (again, not discriminating). Doesn’t mean much for the lonely man or woman looking for a partner with whom they can share an intimate connection.

      And she doesn’t have to worry about her partner refusing because she did something slightly wrong.

      Not even remotely true. Just ask my last partner.

    • NickMostly says:

      I didn’t mean to sound as if I am dismissing the asymmetry entirely. After all, when conducting my little Ok/Cupid survey I created four male profiles and two female profiles, none of which had any profile information to speak of except age, location, and the default match criteria (all were 25 straight single looking for casual sex). You can guess which profiles have several visitors and messages and which don’t…
      Some time ago I was watching The View (don’t judge me) and the CEO of Ashley Madison was being interviewed/grilled about his service. He tried to sell it by saying a woman (voluntarily) using the service had her choice of suitors. For fun, I created a phony account as a married 38y.o. female on the north shore to test his claim. Within two minutes of clicking “done” I had 11 IM chat requests pop up on my screen. I hadn’t posted a photo or any other descriptive information yet. Perhaps what that says is that men are a lot more willing to be indiscriminate when searching for a sex partner.

      • I suspect that a lot of messages on Ashley Madison and other sites of that ilk are computer-generated or planted by staff members, so I wouldn’t read too much into the nearly instantaneous responses. Nonetheless, it probably is true that men, on average, are somewhat less discriminating in their selection of casual sex partners. (Especially men who resort to such sites to find partners.) Whether this propensity is the result of biology or social conditioning, I can’t say.

        • NickMostly says:

          No, the guys were real. And if you’d allow me to give you a brief glimpse of one of the Ok/Cupid accounts I created I don’t think his claim is far fetched.
          Here’s my email box for one of my female Ok/Cupid profiles (sophie-b-nice) I created yesterday:
          3:36 pm sophie-b-nice, Welcome to Ok/Cupid!
          4:01pm sophie-b-nice, You have a new message from [redacted]
          5:02pm sophie-b-nice, You have a new message from [redacted]
          7:13pm sophie-b-nice, You have a new message from [redacted]
          9:19pm sophie-b-nice, You have a new message from [redacted]
          10:19am sophie-b-nice, You have a new message from [redacted]
          10:55am sophie-b-nice, Someone chose you!
          12:05pm sophie-b-nice, You have a new message from [redacted]

          Okay, and here’s my email box for one of the male accounts I created yesterday (deleted this morning, but open for about the same length of time, if not longer):
          11:27 am , Welcome to Ok/Cupid!

          So, yeah, that.

          • That’s scary. Then again, “sophie-b-nice” sounds super hot. 🙂

          • So true and so depressing.

          • Peter Houlihan says:

            Yeah, haven’t been on there in ages. I think I got one message the whole time I was there (from some guy in Texas). He was cute and we chatted a bit, but a guy in Texas isn’t much damn use! 😉 Any girlfriends I’ve known to go on there have experienced exactly the opposite: a tidal wave of messages the moment the sign up. Mostly of the “Hey bb, wanna cam?” Variety.

            Oh, wait. I did get a creepy message one night from a girl in Wexford who wanted anonymous sex, but I think that was mostly because I was the only one on at 4 am (animation course, don’t judge me).

          • This is interesting.

            Honestly, I believe it’s because men are taught they’re to be the go-getter, and women are taught they should be pursued. I think that means men have more *pressure* to go after women, and try to get sex (whether they want to or not) and women are under pressure not to. It has less to do with some innate desire in either sex.

  26. i don't believe you says:

    I think you have conflated “experimentation” with “homosexual”. Most of my male peer group participates in an incredible amount of wild and kinky things…just not with other men. So while it’s true that a female can be involved with another girl without the certain repercussions that a man might have, it is also true that previous threesomes earn me the label of stud, rather than skank.

    • OK. I am not sure if I understand your point. Can you clarify the conflation of “experimentation” with “homosexual”? I hear you saying that experimentation can mean many things – and that point is well taken. However, I’m not sure how I would phrase it differently…

      Further, my point is that men should be able to engage sexually with other men and still identify as straight – women do it all the time, and it’s an unfair double standard. It doesn’t make them gay.

  27. @Mediahound Awesome insights thanks!
    @Nikki B. Keep up the awesome posts!!

  28. Another great post Nikki.
    I stand with you in the experimentation is fine group.

  29. Nikki

    I agree with your sentiments and openness – but there are some social and historical issues that you have missed.

    I actually see far greater freedom on sexual experimentation in men and women under say 25 years of age. A great deal of work on diversity and equality over the last 30 years is paying off. I have encountered many young man and women who are quite open about their experimentation to their “Peer Group” – but to older peeps there is still some big issues.

    I was chatting with two young guys over the summer on a local sports field – they were involved in quite a large Soccer competition. They were very muscular masculine and ruggedly hansom – and they caught my attention because an opposition player called them “Bum Chums”. I went into Equality Defender mode!

    I asked the Young Guys if I could help. They said no – there was no issue – they were both happy to be friends with benefits – the whole team know and one even commented his Girlfriend was cool with it! It was just a taunt from the opposition in an attempt to upset the game. They also both admitted that most team members had been happy to play away and have fun – it was just sex and just nice. And these two dudes were extremely masculine – sort of Milan cat walk meats the NFL.

    Then the taunt of “Bum Chums” came a second time – and the Tournament Organisers heard it and the opposition player was shown the red card and sent to the showers before he even kicked a single ball.

    I have to say that the 1980’s and the advent of AIDS/HIV is all too often under estimated for how it has affected the perceptions of Two Generations where sex – safety – and openness has occurred. The scars of the sexual psyches of so many people and society in general are missed.

    It was not that long ago that two guys experimenting would be labelled as Typhoid Marys who represents a death risk to all others! Stupid – Irrational and laced with prejudice and fear – but that’s humans for you. It was the origin of the “Bum Chums” taunt that had me on guard in an instant.

    There is now the emergence of a generation which to a greater degree are free and allowed to be free of that whole Danger Scaremongering insanity and social prejudice – and long may it grow.

    If others have lost out due to age and social pressure, that is in so many ways just the way it was and is for them now. … and why can’t men in their 30’s – 40’s – 50’s – 60’s – and zimmer frame users not experiment? It’s just up to them to deal with the fears they were taught and socially internalised and overcome them!

    They do say – Once Bitten Twice Shy!

    I have seen that Orgasm can change that one very easily! P^)

    • Good afternoon, sir.

      Excellent points – and there is definitely history I don’t know. I also thank you for these stories – a friend and I were just talking about how the younger generation seems to have a much better handle on it than we do. I, for one, would be happy to see this post seem outdated by younger generations. I hope they start to educate their elders! 🙂

  30. @this man… “nor would society reward me for it as it does you…”

    Forgive me if I’m wrong, but that rather strikes me as the whole point of this article. It’s utterly unfair that you can’t be as ‘loud and proud’ about your sex life as Nikki can. Why take it out on her?? She is raising a completely valid and distressing point, here. In defense of men and their freedom, even! Men SHOULD be able to do those things and get the same props women do. Wearing it on one’s sleeve as a man should NOT make people uncomfortable or icked out or judgmental. I personally celebrate men who fly their freak flag, enthusiastically even, but most people don’t and that’s a problem.

    • “It’s utterly unfair that you can’t be as ‘loud and proud’ about your sex life as Nikki can. Why take it out on her?”

      Recently she was here preaching feminist feminist rape culture dogma, no she is asking why male sexuality is demonized … do you think Nikki is having a thinking problem?

      • Ha! (I laugh at “having a thinking problem” – it just sounds funny).

        I think you may have missed my point in the earlier article. I was discussing how rape culture says horrible things about men. Rape culture [does not equal] some kind of feminist dogma. Feminists are *against* rape culture – partially BECAUSE of what it says about men, as I tried to point out. I know I am.

        • I think what This man is saying is that there are those that say their are against rape culture seem to do it in a flawed way via excluding male victims. Well if the point of opposing rape culture is to help all people then why start off with a premise that excludes subsets of people?

          • YES! And the fact that this is missed is SO not ok!

            The fact that we focus overwhelmingly on “women as being raped by men” is a social construct! Yes, the data says that women are being more often victims, but focusing ONLY on that statement? Ugh! It’s terrible! And it reiterates constructs that say men are this way and women are that way. THAT is what I would like to see change.

            I am still struggling with how to engage these dialogues that I, personally, think we’re on the same side of, given the incredibly polarizing history and interpretations we have today…

            • Agreed I’ll put it like this.

              In a past post Hugo S. commented that while he acknowledged that male victims of sex crimes are more numerous than reported it can’t be certain how under-reported they are.

              I can agree with that. How can you know how many victims there are when they are silenced and prevented from speaking up right?

              So how exactly was it calculate that 60% of rapes go unreported?

            • ” Yes, the data says that women are being more often victims, ”

              Iit has been explained to you more than once, that more women show up as victims, because we don’t include envelopment as rape and so don’t count most female rapists and their victms. Gendered rape is a social construct created by only counting rape as penetration that’s exploited by rape culture propagandists.

        • Nikki

          Feminist Rape Culture is a radical feminist dogma and ideology. Feminists promote rape and abuse culture by lying with statistics about rape and abuse. Feminism is likely the most active and overt rape and abuse culture in society. That’s why HS lies to cover up female perp’d child sex abuse.

          The latest scandal is feminism covering up child abuse on a mass scale on Australia.
          http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/australia-abandons-its-children-to-abuse/

    • “Forgive me if I’m wrong, but that rather strikes me as the whole point of this article. It’s utterly unfair that you can’t be as ‘loud and proud’ about your sex life as Nikki can. Why take it out on her?? She is raising a completely valid and distressing point, here. In defense of men and their freedom, even! ”

      I like sex the way it is….I have zero desire to experiment.

      I have no real desire to feel loud and proud about my sex life. In fact I will go further and say that I try to avoid being loud and proud about ANYTHING in my life.

      And I don’t really want to live in a loud and proud society which is why a rarely ever go to Facebook. All you do by having a “loud and proud” society is to raise people expectations to unrealistic levels and create a society where people are more interested in impressing others than pleasing themselves. It is a really excellent recipe for unhappiness and social madness.

      • Then you should absolutely do what you want and I hope you never feel pressure to do otherwise. 😀 Again, being sex positive means everyone should have the sex they like – or not to have sex at all. Period. Full stop.

        I agree with you final statement, and I have all kinds of issues regarding FB and social media. Our culture is so much about selling ourselves, and there is all this pressure to compete – bleck. I don’t find it healthy or healthful for people as individuals or our society at large.

        I also applaud your right to not be loud and proud.

        However – I still believe that having conversations, like this one here, can open people’s eyes to how others are feeling, and they may not want to engage either. But, they may think more to themselves about what they really want. They may have more of an honest conversation with a partner. They may realize, as Danny points out and as you do, that they don’t need to give in to social pressures, because they are not alone in how they feel. That is also why discussing is important. Otherwise, why are we even here?

  31. At the same time, I’m a straight man that has been involved in swinging, has a bdsm sexual orientation, has had threesomes, been with men etc. but I don’t feel the need to wear it on my sleeve, nor would society reward me for it as it does you Nikki Brown. Is selling sex your bread and butter Nikki or is the blog just a hobby?

    • You don’t need to wear it on your sleeve, but, as I mentioned before, you do need to talk with your new partners about it. Now, within a safe community, this may be easy. But, for those who don’t have that, it might be difficult getting through that. For example, I feel like a woman may have more ease getting into swinging, bdsm, threesomes (although which kind – FFM? MMF? Ever tried talking two dudes into a threesome? Easier if it’s with two chicks)… yet someone who is interested in that may have trouble.

      I am not selling sex. I am talking about it. And, yes, talking about sex is a bit of a hobby (I am going to take that as a legit question, and not as an insinuation that I’m a prostitute, and that I should feel bad about it).

  32. I think people are missing the point here. Nikki is making a completely valid point about our societal bias against men being able to do anything with other men without being “gay.” If you did a poll of men and asked the question, “Would you completely rule out dating a woman who had ever eaten pussy?” the percentage of men saying they’d refuse to date her because she did that would actually be somewhere near zero. Most would probably respond with an incredibly emphatic “WHERE DO I FIND GIRLS LIKE THIS!?!?”

    The same would not be true of women being polled the same type of question about men who had given another guy a BJ. There is a huge stigma attached to any male-on-male sexual conduct. Men who consider themselves straight are not afforded the same abilities to explore their sexuality and be open about it.

    I’ll use an example. I was friends with a sexually adventurous group in high school. I used to have parties on my rooftop, and we would often play spin the bottle. One of the rules for spin the bottle was that whoever it landed on, you kissed. Period. That means women kissed women, men kissed women, men kissed men. There were gay guys kissing lesbian chicks, straight guys kissing straight guys, gay guys kissing straight guys, straight girls kissing straight girls, etc.

    How many of the straight guys who ended up kissing dudes would end up admitting it? Almost none. It is perfectly acceptable for women to kiss other women, but we do not feel the same about guys. Women kissing is “hot” (I agree!) but men kissing is “gross.”

    And here’s the truth. A massive percentage — I won’t say most — straight men have had sexual encounters with other men. Maybe you were 11 years old and you and your friend were looking at porn and you each jerked off.

    A man can’t say, “Yeah, I blew a guy, and I didn’t like it.” and that is the end of it. If you’re a straight guy and you’ve experimented with men, there is a phrase that applies to you: deny ’til you die.

    • Yes. This exactly. It seems like men aren’t allowed to talk about it. Women, on the other hand, often use it to up their own sexual capital, even if they’re not all that into it. That is, of course, in my experience.

      The flip side, that some commenters have touched on, is that some men *aren’t* all that into girl-on-girl action. Yet, I wonder – do men feel pressure to say they are? Even if it isn’t their thing?

      Do women feel like they can’t think guy-on-guy is hot? Because I think it is. So hot.

      SO really it’s about opening up this dialogue so people feel comfortable expressing what they are and aren’t into. Plus, the further point people might be missing is that fact that I mean this even when talking to your partner. You don’t have to be telling the world – but you should be able to share your desires and your history with your partner.

      • The flip side, that some commenters have touched on, is that some men *aren’t* all that into girl-on-girl action. Yet, I wonder – do men feel pressure to say they are? Even if it isn’t their thing?
        Yes and that pressure comes from both men and women as a way to test how much of a “real man” one is. It goes back to the belief that guys are supposed to be ready for sex at all times with as many women as possible.

        Oddly enough whenever I’ve said I’ve not been much for woman/women porn (the only exception being if there is a specific woman I want to see and in that case I would want to see her whether she’s is with men or women) women are the ones that were more shocked by it.

        • Julie Gillis says:

          It’s always amazing to me how we live in a culture that denies people the experiences they themselves know they like or don’t like. Everyone has a different experience about what turns them on, what makes them feel good in bed (or out) or how they want to experiment. I find it horrible we place such limits on ourselves based on pop culture or ideals set decades before.

        • Thanks for the comment Danny, and I agree with you, Julie.

          I have to say, talking about it with each other, with people and not just watching pop culture and porn, is where we make change. That is what being sex-positive is all about. I hope men AND women read these comments, and think about them. Maybe realize that the things we’re “told” are right do not, actually, apply across the board, and allow more people to decide for themselves that what they like is ok. They don’t have to enter the conversation, but I bed listening or reading helps.

      • > do men feel pressure to say they are?

        Sort of. I’m not particularly turned on by girl-on-girl. Sometimes it works for me, but 9 times out of ten my reaction is “eh”. I say I “sort of” feel pressure because there’s the gentle pressure to claim to like girl-on-girl in lighthearted conversation, but if it happened to take a more serious turn and I said “I don’t really like girl-on-girl” I don’t think I’d be stigmatized for it.

        If, on the other hand, I said I liked guy-on-guy action, the VAST majority of my social network would have a very strong negative reaction or, at the very least, an “OMG!” shocked reaction that drastically changed the way they looked at me. That includes some very gay-friendly friends and family, both men and women.

        • Yep. And I think that’s the issue. Not to say everyone needs to check some gay porn to see if they like it, but the double standard (e.g. woman can say “girl on girl is hot” and far fewer would freak out/some people would respond with “hey awesome”) has got to go. Moreover, if someone thinks guy-on-guy is hot, or likes that you like it (if you did), they would they feel safe saying so? Probably not.

          This isn’t to say they NEED to say so, but it’s also about how we internalize how other people react.

      • NickMostly says:

        Whaddya mean? Joe Francis said all guys like a little girl on girl finger banging.

        But maybe that’s the problem right there – the conversations we have about things like this are ultimately shallow and serve to reinforce cultural clichés that may bear no resemblance to the preferences of men and women. If women and men were able to go a little deeper I think we’d find that there is a wide array of preferences, and that men and women are more alike in this regard than our small talk would have us believe.

        I was just thinking about this the other day, when I was out buying flowers (and chocolate). The cashier decided to make small talk, and asked if I was “in trouble.” How do you respond to that? Do you launch into exposition about how sexist it is to assume a guy buying flowers is 1) doing it for a woman and 2) not of his own accord? I long for the day when the conversation shifts such that the cashier says to me, “those are beautiful flowers. Are they for you or a gift?”

        • First paragraph = YES.

          Second paragraph = ME TOO. Ugh. See? Now this is WHY we need to break this shiz down for everyone, men and women. I know it seems like a small thing, but to me it speaks volumes and I’m not ok with it. Bleck.

    • You have hit the nail on the head exactly.

  33. I think the author is asking a legitimate question and some of the responses are treading into the “don’t ask, don’t tell” arena – why is that?

    If you’re of mind that this form of conversation should remain private, then that’s fine – but not everyone feels this way –

    So why is society stricter with the sexual experimentation proclivities of men versus women?

    How do some women view men who have had bisexual experiences? Do they view them as being less manly? How do other men view the same – as less manly?

    I think the answers to the above are yes, in both instances. The question is why.

    • Mens liberation has yet to come.

      We haven’t even begun, there needs to be reliable male b/c. The right to consent to fatherhood and never be tricked / railroaded into it. Men need to learn to refuse to allow society and women to define what a real/good man is or define men by their servitude and chivalry to women, and so gain the agency self define.

      The answer to the question why is pretty obvious, women have had their liberation movement ans been freed from gender roles while men have not.

      • Yes! Well, I mean, I still thing we are working to pull down gender roles, we haven’t completely succeeded, but women HAVE a voice that says we can express our sexuality, etc, and men DO NOT have that yet. Yes, there are deeper issues here that actually tie back into gender roles, etc, BUT the bottom line is, I think we can pull down this double standard without getting into it – and it would benefit both men and women: more open dialogue about sex, which leads to safer more communicative sex, more appreciation for a variety of sexual needs and desires, instead of trying to pigeon hole everyone.

        • You can’t change the double standard and preach feminist rape culture dogma at the same time Nikki.

          You movement doesn’t have the answer because at its core, it’s male, male sexuality and PIV negative.

          • I strongly disagree. First, rape culture is not something that feminist preach, they preach *against* it – big difference.

            Second – while some feminist are a pain in the ass for everyone, and that I wholeheartedly agree the feminist movement has a not-great track record for considering men (holla, Judith Butler!), I think the opposite is true: At it’s core, feminism is positive on those issues, and has actually spurred a lot of masculine studies.

          • Marcus Williams says:

            T-man, what is your argument here? Is it that you disagree that there’s a double standard about same-sex experimentation? That the double standard exists but you don’t think that should change? That it exists, but only because it’s a consequence of feminism?

            Or is it none of those things, and more about taking the opportunity to remind her after every article she writes that you disagree with her about feminist theory and terminology, regardless of what the topic at hand is?

    • I think the author is asking a legitimate question and some of the responses are treading into the “don’t ask, don’t tell” arena – why is that?

      Because men don’t understand the need that many people have to overshare about something like sex. It’s not the experimentation that is being judged. It’s the fact that this post reads more like humblebragging than anything else. Most men just don’t engage in those kind of bull sessions over the age of 16. Nor do most women, despite what Sex & The City and various dating/sex blogs have led us to believe. This is behavior that many women *think* men engage in, and so in an attempt to “be like men” they take it to the next level. It makes us look like childish, boundary-less attention seekers.

      I think people are missing the point here.

      I think the point of this post was muddied by the egregious and frequent oversharing.

      • “Because men don’t understand the need that many people have to overshare about something like sex . . . Most men just don’t engage in those kind of bull sessions over the age of 16.”

        That’s the truth. And it’s not because we’re repressed. We just don’t care. Nor do most women.

      • NickMostly says:

        +1 for hasty generalizations

      • I would argue there is a difference between discussing (or oversharing) sexual exploits and talking about sexuality and sexual experiences.

        While it’s up to everyone to define how comfy they are with sharing the details of their sexual lives (and if you don’t want to hear it, find other friends or read other blogs), I think we should, as a human community, talk about sex. What sex means to us, how we express it, how we are constrained by it, how we feel about it. Share with each other experiences, and encourage one another to explore if they so desire. That exploration DOES NOT always mean *more sex* or *more kink* – it can, and should, include *less sex* and *less kink*. I think we’re social beings, talking about things is how we learn, how we grow, and how we discover new things.

        • “I think we’re social beings, talking about things is how we learn, how we grow, and how we discover new things.”

          The social part is what I don’t like. Sex before used to be intensely private and not social at all. Many things were like that. Nobody had any clue what anybody else was doing. I don’t think its as positive, as you think it is, that we are talking about it. I also don’t believe we discover “new things” through our social experience. In fact maybe the opposite…everyone comes to discover the same old things which are replicated throughout the world through the power of the internet. Our expectations increase. And all our experiences come to be mediated through our social experiences. We don’t see things directly, we see them with a large societal filter over our eyes.

          And our lives become more like roles we play than things we actually want to do. When people are observed their behavior changes because they are no longer doing what they want to do. They are now starting to alter their behavior to fit the expectations others have of them. And so we get trapped in social prisons.

  34. Another bit of personal info? I don’t really discriminate based on gender. I like eating pussy about as much as I like giving head (yes, there are women who enjoy the BJ)

    The minute a woman has to separate herself out from other women, everything else she says becomes suspect. Plenty of women enjoy giving head. You really aren’t all that unique. And what’s with all the graphic commentary? This story couldn’t be told without the over use of the word pussy and titties and cock? Or is this just a way to appeal to the male readership, because everyone knows men love a little girl on girl action, amirite?

    Just because men aren’t out there blogging about their sexual escapades or sharing every detail of their personal lives with friends doesn’t necessarily mean they are embarrassed or are stigmatized for experimenting. It just means many of them don’t have something to prove on the Internet

    It’s amazing to me how this blog is supposed to be about breaking down gender stereotypes, yet so many of the “writers” who contribute posts are probably the most narrow minded of all.

    • NickMostly says:

      There is a question on Ok/Cupid that asks about whether you’ve ever had a sexual experience with a person of the same gender as yourself. The possible responses are:

      Yes, and I enjoyed myself
      Yes, but I didn’t enjoy myself
      No, but I’d like to
      No, and I would never

      As a guy, guess which answer is most likely to be “acceptable” to potential matches. I just checked twenty profiles of women in my town (a very liberal college town with a significant LGBT population) by creating four different profiles that answered this question (you can only change your answer once every 24 hrs). Only 2 profiles suggested “No, and I would never” was unacceptable whereas most of the profiles found the other three unacceptable. (I wish I had access to the larger corpus of data on this question to see what the actual statistics are like, and whether there are gendered differences.)

      I suspect part of the reason for this is the fear that he might be “secretly gay” and find his “true sexuality” in the midst of a relationship with you. I don’t think this is exclusive to men, however, as I have heard tell that bi-sexual women experience a similar thing when entering into lesbian relationships.

      • Yes! This is what I am talking about. It’s absolutely women who say “oh, hey, you did WHAT I so can’t date you now!” while dudes are saying “oh that’s hot.”

        So not fair!

        I mean, I understand a lot of the theory behind this (homophobia, obvi, and some other fun stuff) and the fact that a man might be really be closeted – which is, actually a legit thought. I mean, we’re still not over our issues with the gays, and many people ARE closeted.

        I think we can get over both these issues if we actually just talk about it. Get it out there, look at the issue, and think about *why* there is SUCH a double standard here – in addition to getting over our issues, so gay men wouldn’t feel pressure to remain closeted, too.

        • Aside from anecdotal “evidence,” how do you know that most guys think girl-on-girl sex is hot? It’s a fetish that is plainly not shared by many guys. Moreover, even if they are titillated by it, many men wouldn’t enter into a long-term relationship with a woman who admitted to being a sometime carpet-muncher. As with women who reject “experimental” men, there may be doubts about the prospective partner’s “real” sexual orientation.

          The upshot: I deny the premise that women are free to experiment, while men are not. Neither gender is free to experiment in the long-term, heterosexual relationship market.

          • NickMostly says:

            Good point, Nick. I’ll run the same survey in reverse and let you know what I find. (Please note I didn’t claim my quick survey was statistically valid data, just a quick look at what a seemingly random sample size of n=20 showed).

          • OK I repent – I guess I am going with *generally speaking* in my personal experience, men seem to think girls who experiment as “hot” – BUT I think the point you make is really important on the grander scheme of things: The idea of experimenting is “hot” for some men, but even at that point – do they think the girls are relationship material? Furthermore, I think the reason men sometimes like girl-on-girl action has way less to do with openness about sexual experimentation and more to do with voyeurism and some ideas about women as sexual objects.

            Therefore – even for women, the ability to experiment may be for the wrong reasons, and may still put stigmatize her in the long-term market.

            All that said, I still stand by the idea that we should be allowed to experiment. We can do that, AND still say we’re straight. I think everyone’s sexuality is up to them, and we need to trust each other to know ourselves… Of course, that’s in an ideal world, and right now, between a lack of openness about sex in general, and our desire to put everyone in sexuality boxes, that’s not what’s going on. I think talking about it, and allowing people to experiment if they so choose, and define their sexuality as they so choose, and encouraging that to be ok, and sex to be more ok, we can break down stigmas and keep people from staying closeted, or forcing our definitions on them.

        • NickMostly says:

          Okay, that took a while. Mostly because it was very hard to find 20 guys who answered that question publicly in my town – I only found 14. Of those, 3 had a problem with the responses “Yes, and I enjoyed myself” and “No, but I’d like to.”

          When I have time I’ll try to expand the search to exclude self-identified bi-sexuals like I did for the women. But what does it say that men aren’t answering this question publicly?

  35. Wirbelwind says:

    Oh, and straight men can experiment (and some do so), but, unlike a certain group of people, they don’t necessarily go around and tell everybody how doing XXX is self- empowering or something.

    • Hmmm… I personally believe being able to express yourself, including your sexual self, can be very empowering. Finding new things that bring you joy, make you think, or give you pleasure are fab, and they can really enrich your life. As a culture, we’re so very obsessed with sex, yet so shaming of it at the same time. Breaking down all that to express sex as it works for you is very fulfilling.

      Moreover, I think it’s important to discuss our experiences – but only if you feel comfortable and not necessarily in terms of details – to engage others in open dialogue about things we should be talking about and thinking about.

  36. Why are you referencing a male feminist that tells like to erase victims of child sex abuse?

  37. The Bad Man says:

    I don’t particularly care what others prefer to do in their own personal relationships, but this kinda creeped me out. If I wanted to experiment then I would, but certain things just don’t interest me personally.

    • That’s absolutely fine and I think we all need to know where our boundaries are.

      My question, however, is *why* does this creep you out? I mean, I’m assuming you mean “men experimenting kinda creeps me out”, so please clarify if I’m wrong.

  38. ” I like eating pussy about as much as I like giving head ”

    So are any other *straight* women here that feel the same way?

    • I never said I was straight. However, I think there are plenty of straight women who have experimented, yet they don’t get dubbed a lesbian the rest of their lives. I feel that men who experiment and are honest about it, are told they’re closeted. That’s not fair. We can all experiment if we so choose – it absolutely does not mean we have to.

    • I’ve heard similar sentiments from straight women before. Sometimes, a hot person is a hot person.

  39. Wirbelwind says:

    There are only two parties that try to shame men when it comes to sex: feminists and religions.

    • Both will go in the garbage bin of history, but men, women and sex would last as long as this Earth exists.

    • I wholly disagree, and it’s not ok to put all feminists in a big ol’ group. Some *women* shame men, just as some *men* shame other men. As a sex-positive feminist? I believe that shaming *anyone* for their sex, as long as they are safe and have enthusiastic consent, is wrong.

      Not all religions shame sex, either – and not all interpretations of religions do either. Yes, there is shame around sex for both men and women, but that is also not fair as a blanket statement.

    • Jamie Utt says:

      I couldn’t disagree more. I think there are countless contexts where men shame each other into not experimenting. I, personally, have done my fair bit of experimenting. Further, I am the kind of person who likes to talk with friends about my experiences to come to a better understanding of how I feel about these experiences. However, there are few men with whom I would feel comfortable talking about the times I have experimented with men (despite having great discussions with these men about experimenting with women). The reason for this is that I know they would not be very open and accepting as we talk about my experiences.

      I think that we as men have some work to do in supporting each other in experimentation sexually, particularly same-sex and same-gender experimentation.

    • Peter Houlihan says:

      sex-negative feminists, right wing religion and other men.

      Personally I’ve found that gender policing is more likely to be conducted within ones own gender. I’ve heard more slut shaming coming from women than I have from men. Equally, I’ve heard more anti-male homophobia and biphobia coming from men. Not that women don’t do it, but your list seems to ignore a whole lot of men out there.

  40. @Nikki Brown
    Sex is a very personal matter. It is the private business between two (or more) consenting partners. Nobody knows or cares about what others do in their bedroom. From where did you get the idea that straight men cannot experiment if their partner is willing?

    • I never said straight men aren’t allowed to experiment, but I do think people are FAR more comfortable with women experimenting than they are with men doing so. Many women would say they won’t date a guy who has been with a man, and many men don’t blame them (that does not mean all men or all women, but a fair amount) – so what gives? Men have to keep their sex lives secret?

      • Why should me blame women for not dating a guy who has been with a guy? Why should anybody care about others dating preferences? If you thing men keep their sex lives secret, then I must tell you that you are wrong. You probably do not know how much men brag about their sexual exploits in close circles. You seem to assume that if heterosexual guys are not involved in homosexual behavior, then they are not experimenting.

        • Peter Houlihan says:

          Its not so much that every guy should get with a guy for the fun of it. Thats an individual choice to make. Her argument, as far as I can tell anyway, is that men don’t have the same freedom to that women have.

          I don’t think that men keep their sex lives secret, they absolutely brag about them to men. Actually I’d go further: they’re required to brag about them in order to be men (whether or not they want or have had such experiences). But this doesn’t apply to homosexual experiences. I can’t think of a single guy, gay or straight, in my school’s locker rooms telling us that he bagged a guy last night. I’ve heard women say that, I’ve even heard women say that about other women. But not men about other men.

          • This opinion piece is based on false assumptions. Let us examine its head line:
            Why? = Question
            Can’t = are not able/are prevented
            Straight men = men who are sexually attracted to women
            Experiment = try new things
            Too = others do it.
            Since this OP is written by a bisexual female, it makes it highly presumptuous. Heterosexual males do try out new things and are not shamed by others for it. This OP has nothing to do with homosexual or bisexual males, or women.

            • H’ok.

              Peter – thank you for your comment! Agreed – and that is my point.

              Rapses – I get irritated with women who *judge* a man to be “undatable” simply because he’s been with a man. There is no reason to judge someone by that, aside from homophobic ones. I didn’t touch on this in any depth for a reason – it’s freakin’ deep. Check this post for more: http://www.metanotherfrog.com/2011/07/12/bi-men-dateable/

              In addition, you’re point is well taken, and another commenter made it, too. “Experiment” may be too vague. Yes, men experiment in other ways, but I mean “experiment with other men”. Women have more freedom to same-gender experiment, but men don’t. I think that’s an unfair double standard.

              • @Nikki
                “Experiment” may be too vague. Yes, men experiment in other ways, but I mean “experiment with other men”.

                You are not getting facts straight. The problem is not the word “experiment.” The subject of the OP is straight men, then fitting it with “experiment with other men” is really contradictory. Straight men have sex with women, not men. Why would a gay man want to date a woman and vice versa.

                • Ok. Now we’re getting somewhere.

                  I think people can experiment and still identify as straight. I know I know – that really blurs some things but… why not? It isn’t up to us to determine another person’s sexuality, it’s up to them. Furthermore, I agree with Kinsey – sexuality itself exists on a spectrum and shouldn’t be confined to labels all the time. Does that mean we should do away with labels? NO. They work for the majority of people. I think we should allow some to blur the lines. And we already do – with gay men and straight women.

                • The whole point of the article is that it’s hypocritical that straight women who have experimented with women are still considered straight by society, and yet straight men who have experimented with men are considered forever gay or at least bi. You’re playing directly into that.

            • Delusional. You must only be a “male” online only. Men most certainly not only do not brag about same sex experimentation but typically won’t admit it even in an anonymous survey. Boys and men whose same sex experimentation is found out by others are viciously, relentlessly shamed as “fags” (even if it only happened once) by other males and completely rejected by insecure females who insist any straight guy who experiments is a closet case. Male on male same sex experimentation brings out the worst in heterosexuals; the guys feel if they dont immediately label the experimenter gay then they are by default acknowledging that they are potentially capable of same sx action, too (most of them are, regardless) and straight women get bent outta shape because theyve been socialized to believe their most prized quality is the ability to sexually attract a man to the point that accepting that their straight mates might have also had occasion to enjoy sexual contact with a male a threat to their purpose, attractiveness and identity as females. Bottom line is many young straight guys mess around to one degree or another with other males at some point. They feel pressured and shamed into keeping it secret and worrying about whether it completely alters their orientation. It does not but a majority of uptight, insecure straight males and females will make sure to keep the real number of males who have experimented with same sex nookie inaccurate and low.

Trackbacks

  1. […] also brought to mind, for me, my most recent post over there about sexual expression, and that straight women can experiment, but straight men cannot. The idea […]

  2. […] I’ve talked about it here before, but check it out over on the GMP: Why Can’t Straight Men Experiment Too? […]

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