Why Do Married Men Watch Porn?

A woman wants to know why her husband wakes up early to masturbate to pornography.

Originally published at She Said He Said

Dear Sexes: Why do married men masturbate to porn, and when they get caught by their wives they say, “It’s not you, I love only you,” but they wake up at 7:30 in the morning leave you sleeping and go in the other room an wack off to watching porn?

She Said: First, it’s not about you. Unless you’re withholding sex—-then it is a little bit about you. Remember, sex is not a weapon. It is not a tool for manipulation and should not be used to show you’re angry, or dissatisfied, or to “reward” someone. Sex should be a mutually-enthusastic expression of love, of lust, and/or connection. As much as sitcoms and RomComs joke about “holding out”, that’s pure manipulation and will end badly for you.

But that’s a little off-topic, as I’m completely jumping to a conclusion that you’re doing that.

So to answer: My guess is that your guy is using masturbation as a way to relieve anxiety before his day starts. I’d also guess that if you got out the massage oil and offered to help him with the process, he’d be keen on you joining in.

If not, don’t take it personally, maybe he needs to just get it done quickly so that he can go on with his day. Or maybe he doesn’t want to wake you. If it really freaks you out, try to talk to him about it in a way that doesn’t accuse. You know the classic relationship advice: use “I” and “me” statements instead of “you” accusations. Try, “I feel a little left out in the mornings when you get up to masturbate.” See what he says, I bet if you approach it right, he’ll feel comfortable enough to open up to you. The answer will probably surprise you—-in a good way.

He Said: Let’s get one thing out of the way real quick. ALL men (not just the married ones) masturbate to porn (or some visual form of stimulation), except for the incredibly repressed, asexual, and/or flat-out liars.

Personally, I’m not married but I don’t feel the need to justify/defend masturbation to my girlfriend by saying “It’s not you, I love only you”. I do love my girlfriend, but masturbation and love have nothing to do with one another. In general, men are visual creatures.  They have always been, and will forever be this way.

The masturbating to porn thing is mostly about getting immediate satisfaction on our own terms—-visual stimulation (in this manner) is easy for us, and rarely has anything to do with our partner, or even our feelings about our sex life, or our partner’s beauty.

Also, masturbation is a natural thing, normal and good for everyone. Does your man judge the manner in which you masturbate, by hating on the special candles you bought for the event, not to mention that old sweatshirt of his you keep nearby for such occasions? Masturbation is only a problem if it’s overdone, or used as a replacement for a healthy communicative relationship or sex-life (with others). So, if your problem is with masturbation, try and get over it. If your problem is with your man (or men in general) masturbating too much, talk to your man and see what it’s all about for him.  And tell him to stop beating around the bush, and speak honestly.

If your problem is with men masturbating to pornography, because pornography seems exploitative, and almost always enforces disturbingly sick and warped ideas of beauty, then that’s another topic for another day. If I had a dime for every media source, (girly) magazine, and insecure public figures that promote disturbingly sick, warped, and disgusting ideas of beauty (not to mention completely random ones), I’d be the richest man in the world. Those bad messages aren’t reserved just for porn! But as I said, that’s another topic for another day.

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Photo courtesy of  Victor1558

 

About She Said He Said

Eli and Josie, friends since college, realized how lucky they were to have one another—an honest friend of the opposite sex who tells it like it is. They wanted to share that with the world and so www.shesaidhesaid.me was born.

Comments

  1. What a data of un-ambiguity and preserveness of valuable knowledge
    about unexpected feelings.

  2. In this world, the attention tends to focus on satisfying a men’s visual temptations. Society needs to change and encourage women to enjoy watching porn with men in it. Yes, men are “wired” differently than women, but women ALSO have visual desires. Reality is, this IS a male dominated world and that WILL NOT change! Women out there, start satisfying YOUR desires the same way he does, and see what happens…

  3. I’m fascinated by this subject and the comments made. I’ve done research as well, trying to objectively understand the porn phenomenon as well. I spent more than 30 minutes reading this thread and still didn’t reach the end. Haha. Lots of justification going on. Did anyone get into the new brain research that proves how porn creates chemical reactions in the brain and how extremely addictive those chemicals can be?

  4. I’m a porn user. I’ve been married for 13 years and my wife has decided that sex once or twice a year is plenty. I would like it daily if possible, but she isn’t budging. We have young kids and I won’t leave and won’t cheat, but I feel totally unwanted. Therefore I watch and use porn, secretly of course because she demands I have no sex drive either. When I type it out, it looks like I should just go back to bed. 🙂

  5. I’m a woman in a long term relationship with a man. Sometimes I would rather watch porn and/or masturbate than have sex. Sometimes it’s because he’s not around and I’m horny, but sometimes I actively want to get off by myself. Because it feels good. Because, great as sex is, my entire sexuality does not revolve around him. It’s nice to occasionally enjoy myself as only I can, and being alone can allow me to turbo-charge my libido in a completely different way because of the freedom to focus on whatever my imagination can throw at me. It’s not better or worse than intercourse, it’s just different and also *awesome* and has nothing at all to do with my boyfriend failing to be fulfilling. Based on our numerous and detailed conversations about sex, I’m under the impression my boyfriend feels similarly. Just the other day, I woke up from a nap to find him standing in front of the computer jerkin it a few feet away. Not an uncommon sight, and before i rolled back over I experienced a moment of gratitude because I was too tired to have sex. Sometimes when I can’t sleep, masturbating helps. I don’t want to have sex, my personal sexuality is not an invite or a promise of sex, but neither is it a rejection. It’s just for me. I really appreciate that he respects that my sexuality sometimes has nothing to do with him, and he’s secure enough to know that it isn’t because he’s failing me or I’m withholding myself.
    I think the better question is, why do some many people think a relationship should mean giving up your personal sexuality? Why are some people consistently threatened by the various proofs that their partners existed and exist separately from the relationship – sexually, emotionally, financially, socially, physically? Your ability to develop and manage a personal sexual identity is kind of super important to being a functioning adult, and your sexual relationship with yourself does not just evaporate when you find “the one.” Masturbation is not just sex for when you don’t have another person to sex, it’s a distinct part of healthy self-care and self-regulation. I know, lots of otherwise reasonable people would argue that looking at porn is not solitary because there is a woman right there! Possibly her moving image has been captured and you are observing a real life thing she did for thirty minutes in 2011! But I don’t think these same people would be willing to argue that looking at Cosmo or watching Markiplier realistically constitutes having or wanting a relationship with the person whose image is being consumed, even if the person is very interesting and the consumption experience is pleasurable and repeated often.
    Whether people want to live like it or not, every single human is still a complete person before, during, and after relationships – and personal sexuality is a facet of being a complete person. People who are suspicious and controlling about their partners looking at porn and/or masturbating throw up BIG potential abuser/toxic insecurity flags.

  6. Jasmine jackson says:

    I do not understand why a taken man would watch porn to please himself. It honestly would make me feel like my husband is not satisfied with me physically or sexually. I need a better answer on why men watch these things. If I speak on it to my husband, I am afraid there will be no progress. I do not know what to do and I need better advice on how to make it stop. I CANT get over this situation and it is not easy for me to allow this to happen. Why watch it when you have your wife to please you unless the wife has no skills in bed OR they want to go the other way? Someone please answer me asap.

    • Sounds like the issue is with you.
      The first thing you have to find out is why it makes you feel this way?
      The simple answer is that is has NOTHING to do with you.
      You could be the goddess of sex and your lover will still masturbate. You simply can’t control that and maybe you should be wondering why you want to control it that badly.

  7. I believe that it is up to each individual to decide what he/she wants in their life If a man wants to engage with an endless variety of fantasy women via porn/masturbation that is his decision to do so. I think where people get into trouble is when they lie about what they want to themselves or a partner. I also think that women get into trouble when they act from a place of trying to be “beautiful” enough to keep their man “faithful” to them. Men are visual and will always take pleasure in the beauty of women. There is nothing wrong with that. What is “wrong” in my opinion are the expectations that women place on themselves to be the “only one”….Marriage as it has been set up with it’s notions of sexual fidelity to one person seems really messed up to me. It just seems weird. Why not be friends and let the sex happen in a variety of ways. If a man doesn’t want one woman in his mind….why require him to do that. It seems that marriage is about raising kids to adulthood…as partners in that task…..The rest of the nonsense that has gotten attached seems weird to me. I guess if I were married, I would want an “open marriage”. I would only want a man to be with me who wanted to be with me from choice, not obligation.

    Marriage sets up too many “obligations” and expectations….I assume that all men will view porn and get off to many women…I would not pretend to be the “only one” or have a vested interest in that I think that is the stuff of fairytales myself…..that is just disingenuous really…..I think it is each person’s business what they allow into their lives sexually. It is no one else’s business….It is private. That’s just my opinion…..I wouldn’t want porn in my house, but I would not presume to control what a partner did outside ot the home. That would be his own business. I think a person has a right to protect their home from porn and that it is reasonable to ask a partner not to contaminate the home with the stuff, but if a person wants to bring it into their lives elsewhere, that is their business. Just my take on the subject.

    • why bother getting married? Just for kids? Not for love? how very sad—sure my partner would love to be in an open marriage—except he wouldn’t want me with other guys—whats up with that? by the way I LOVE porn—-so much so he thinks I may have a problem—funny how when its turned around men aren’t so good with it—they want us all to themselves—they do not share well—so why should we? can we say double standard—I was thrilled when I read that Eva Longeria and Mortons re doing a restaurant for women with well endowed young men scantily clad feeding them and blindefolding them—hubbies have the breastaraunts—-we are getting long dong shlongs—(actualli its called SHE) yaya for equal standards!!!!! It is about time….Sure they won’t mind their wives mothers and daughters enjoying themselves in precisely the same way….

      • “Sure they won’t mind their wives mothers and daughters enjoying themselves in precisely the same way….”
        My mother probably does, my wife (whenever I get married) probably will, my daughters (If I have any) probably will, my last partner did. Not all men are the same as your partner, quite a few couples watch porn and/or make it together. Don’t let one make you think that men as a group all think the same thing and dislike their partner looking at porn.

        • its funny, he loved that i liked it at first—-he said it was a dream come true–but when i really started liking it it became a problem—almost an addiction for me, interfering with life and truly a waste of time when you have no interaction and are only a voyeur to a screen—we are very active..dailey—..the solution for us was to role play—so fun– and I am sure we both take an occasional peek privately :)-mostly for ideas and giggles….I am incredibly visual, even movies effect me so I have to protect myself—and never say never—until you are married—and until you have children—you never know how you will react—you can try and be logical—but there is something very primal about a daughter I think you will find—-many people say they will never take cancer treatment—that is until they get cancer and are faced with the reality of it…..

    • Kay, men might be visual, but I believe we have a “visual vomit strom” in our culture. What I mean is we excuse a lot of thoughtless behavior because we tell ourselves that is all men are, visual. That doesn’t help men and it doesn’t help women. I also believe that our culture is in a firestorm of images we get thrown at us (vomitted on us) daily, every hour, every minute, every second of the day. So it’s not just a simple case of men being “visual”.

      Secondly, it would not be fair to men or women to say that since women are “emotional”, that they are allowed to do or behave anyway that benefits or pleases them most. Men and women need to care about one another. Unfortunetly, our culture as grossly normalized pornography and the outcome hasn’t exactly been positive for sexuality. Men and women are still struggling, perhaps even more, about sex and sex roles. Men and women don’t seem any closer or happier or satisfied with the onset of so much pornography being availble.

      I do not think it’s a fairytale expectations for a woman to expect her man to be loyal to her. To sometimes deny himself immediately gratification for the greater good of the relationship. Women should do the same. But today, it does seem that there is no expectations for men to deny themselves physical pleasure. The mindset is, if you feel it, act on it in some way. And there is something very unhealthy about that to me.

      A woman should be able to trust and expect loyalty in her relationship. Men were able to live without porn for generations before internet pornography. Now it seems like most men can barely function in relationships or out of them without porn. Something is wrong here. It isn’t the expectation that your partner can be committed to you. And don’t mistake me and believe I am saying that a partner will never be tempted by another. However, it’s what you do that matters. And men running and turning to porn every time they feel something funny down below makes me believe that men have become slaves to pornography more than they have taken control of their own sexuality.

      I do think it’s unrealistic to expect your partners to never be attracted to someone else. I don’t think it’s unrealistic for a man or woman to live without porn in their lives.

      I do disagree that marriage sets up too many obligations. But I guess I am still a romantic on some level.

  8. Maybe the simple fact is he gets off on watching women more attractive than his wife.
    How does he know she doesn’t fantasise about his better looking friends?

    My guess is there is something hardwired into human females which makes them frustrate the sexual fantasies and desires of men.

    At least he has a wife though. Did he consider how lucky he was. So many men are without a good woman these days.

    • Wombat, and I think you touched on one reason why women struggle with the porn issue. They feel unappreciated for what they have to give and offer of themselves that obviously is no match for the fantasies men may enjoy through porn.

      Instead of men working on appreciating what they have, women are advised to understand that men need to focus on what they DON’T have and need to seek this out accordingly through the beauty or skills or adventorousness of other women. How is that suppose to make women feel like they are doing a good job with their men if their men are never happy with what she offers as herself?

  9. For a laugh but theres alotta truth to it……
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zJc2l517fE

  10. Oh my goodness. I just have to say…words cannot even begin to express what I’ve learned from Erin, Archy and Steffan’s comments. As a Christian woman struggling with how she feels about porn and also her boyfriend watching porn, thank you for enlightening me, sharing your thoughts and putting some of my own thoughts into some clarity.

    • No problems, hope it was a positive experience. Only reason I open up so much is to try show others that a viewer isn’t always the stereotypical kind and especially to send the message that fantasy isn’t always reflective of what someone wants in reality. Hope it all works out for your relationship.

    • This is encouraging to hear. I was kind of nervous putting myself out there like that. And I’ve received some criticism (both valid and invalid to varying degrees) like I knew I would. But if my thoughts have helped someone, especially a fellow believer, then it was all worth it.

  11. First holycrapican’tbelieveireadthatall.

    Second, I’ll self-disclose a little about myself. I’m a single 20 year old Christian male college student. I am a psychology and humanities interdisciplinary studies major (which you’ll probably notice if you read this all). Open conversations on sex and porn are difficult to find in my Christian subculture even among close friends (which is very sad if you ask me). I have one friend (whom I’d consider my closest/best) who I talk to occasionally about it. Periodically I talk to my dad about it. I wouldn’t really dare talk to my mom about it though.

    I watch porn sometimes. At the most, four times a week. At the least, none. It depends on the time in my life – how much extra/free time I have and also if I’m feeling lonely or emotionally depleted or lacking etc.. Morally, I believe it’s wrong (as do most all Christians) or to reframe it softer – an imperfection. The easy thing to do as a Christian is to feel the greatest amount of guilt and shame over it – but this would be a denial of the reality of God’s love, grace, forgiveness and patience with and for us. I use to feel a lot of guilt when I’d watch porn but then as I’ve grown up I’ve learned to accept God’s grace better and navigate the feelings (guilt/shame) more maturely. I realized that feeling such extreme amounts of guilt and shame over it only led to more emotional depletion which led to emotional coping – which led to watching (more) porn. That’s an example of a self-defeating cycle that a lot of people get into I think whether it be over porn, dieting and eating etc.

    That’s my short story.

    My opinions? Honestly, I have to agree with a lot of what Archy said about there not being the direct one-to-one correlation between fantasy and reality. There isn’t a one-to-one correlation, as in, watching this type of porn will make you crave that in real life and view women this way etc. etc. But I think it does influence a person’s view, but it’s just not as extreme as those with anti-porn agendas like Erin might say.

    There are a number of complex factors at play. One, because of my Christian subculture I have gotten a healthy dose of the anti-porn agenda’s common sayings and beliefs like how watching porn causes men to “objectify women” and “have unrealistic expectations” and then there’s the whole dopamine and addiction science essays on the topic. Because I have heard a lot of those, maybe I have never broke from the (at least) conscious acknowledgement that porn is not a reflection of real life – in the same way I would not expect my life to be as awesome as my favorite character in my favorite action movie or for me to be as good of a musician as all the artists I listen to and watch music videos of etc.

    Personally, I think you would have to be pretty immersed (addicted and dependent) in watching porn if it were to be able to distort your view of real life in such a radical way. I think the belief that porn alters a person’s beliefs negatively (mostly unrealistically) comes from people’s insecurities of not measuring up. If a person is secure in their self-concept and sexuality, then I think they will let unrealistic people be unrealistic and let them have their fantasy life in their crazy tower. However, if a person is insecure, they will attack whatever they project the cause of their insecurity on (this is also true in other aspects of life, not just porn).

    Honestly, from my own perspective and experience, I think women have just as much, if not more, distortions in the way they view women than men actually do. I often hear women complaining about the media and “photo-shopped” and unrealistic “airbrushed” images, plastic surgery and celebrities etc. I’ve found, in the end, this turns out to be more about their insecurities about their self-image or being single rather than the phenomenon (they seem to be complaining about) itself.

    However, like I mentioned, while I don’t think watching porn distorts your desires or view of sexuality radically, I think it definitely can and does influence it. This is very difficult for anyone to actually see in themselves, because realizing it would require seeing the world and people compared with the way someone else does. You would then have to be able to distinguish the difference between possible personal preferences with distortions and/or unrealistic expectations caused by watching porn. That being said, I don’t think my view of people has been radically altered by watching porn. But I acknowledge that it is possible that my view has been influenced in a way as to make me potentially not as satisfied with average looking women (the dopamine science stuff does make some sense). Again, it’s hard to pin down cause and effect and the difference between unrealistic distortions and maybe just personal preference.

    For instance, I notice that one of my friends who mentioned he’s never been hooked on porn before or really watched it (I know what you’re thinking and I don’t think he a liar – as a kicker, I also know a guy my age that’s never masturbated before [I’m not a gullible person either like you might be thinking right now]). It was ambiguous, but he said he was blessed to have never gotten into it before. When I’m around him I notice he thinks a girl is a lot better looking than I usually do. It doesn’t take some bombshell for him to notice a girl and think she is hot or cute. But as I’ve spent more time around him, I’ve noticed that it could just be that he has different preference in women than I. One of our mutual friends agreed with me on that – he seems to have a “unique taste” in women. Like, I said, it’s hard to pin down cause and effect.

    Let me make the point here that sexuality and looks are not everything. I dated a girl last year who I considered very attractive. In the end, I broke it off because I didn’t think she was as much of match for me intellectually. For me, having a partner that can track with me and pursue things of an intellectual or spiritual nature is just as important if not more important than being physically attractive. Everyone gets old eventually, but a person’s personality traits are there forever.

    If anything our culture and the media has distorted, it’s the lie that what matters most is how you look. I’ll speak for myself at least, but a woman can go waay up or waay down in attractiveness to me depending on her character and personality. A wise man will realize this (that is, if he’s thinking with the “right head”). This is not to say looks and sexuality don’t count for anything, they certainly do, but never buy the lie that they are the only things that matter! I think of the quote by Jeff Foxworthy that “getting married for sex is like buying a 747 for the free peanuts.” Sex is not the only part of a relationship even though our culture and the media make it up to be the central aspect of relationships. I’d say that is the true lie of porn.

    In the end, strictly speaking aesthetically, men will like women who look good to them. From my perspective, I think women may actually have more distortions in the way they view women than men do because of their insecurities. I realize how that sounds, but hear me out. I read an article in Psychology Today that really illuminated this for me (See the shorter online version of the article here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199311/pretty-women). Women tend to think of men’s ideals as the model body type, but in reality, men actually prefer women that are curvier and actually weigh more than 90lbs! The skinny, not very curvy model type is not actually attractive to men, but more women who are perfectly attractive and sexy tend to think that is the ideal and thus are dissatisfied with their bodies. The point is insecurities and imagined “undesirability” exists even in women who are perfectly attractive and sexy. This can be a true and real problem whether or not men watch porn. The problem isn’t solely with men who actually believe in the lies of porn, but also with women who accept those lies to be affected by them.

    There was a kid I coached in a soccer camp over the summer. I don’t even remember his name because situations like this happen quite frequently when working with kids. He came up to me, “Coach! Coach! He (pointing) called me a dummy!”
    To which I thought about for a second, then asked, “Well, is it true?”
    “…Yeah! He called me a dummy!”
    “No, is it true that you’re a dummy?”
    Stumped, and not quite getting the retribution he wanted for said name-calling, “Um.. Well I guess not.”
    “Then why does it matter? You don’t have to listen to him.” Somewhat confounded by my response yet satisfied he went back to playing the game.
    A lie takes two to be effective – the liar and the believer.
    The problem isn’t just with the media, men who watch porn, and unrealistic expectations, it’s also with women who buy into the lie the media and porn sell that their sexuality and physical features are their only ways to attract men. They’re not. In fact, a women who I can tell doesn’t have her value in her appearance who may actually be less attractive physically than a women who I can tell does, may end up actually being more attractive to me as a whole.

    More personally, in conclusion, I’ve tried, with varying degrees of effort to stop watching porn completely. It’s difficult. It’s not a habit I’m proud of. Most people who know me in all other areas of my life would consider me a pretty pious/moral guy too. It’s not like I’m masturbating three times a day to porn or anything, but it is still a moral imperfection I’d rather be without. I read this article because I’m worried I won’t be able to kick the habit completely when and if I get married and that it will cause problems in any serious future relationship.

    I guess my message for women is to approach the issue with compassion and understanding (truth be told criticism, shame and guilt are terrible motivators) and self-understanding about insecurities that might sabotage or distort your approaching of the issue. Finally, I just want to reiterate that the true lie of porn and the media is not necessarily unrealistic expectations but that sexuality and physical appearance are the central components in a relationship. They’re not. There’s so much more to attraction than your waist size, boobs, makeup or hair. If a man isn’t a shallow low-life or neurotic porn addict, then he’ll agree. I think “objectifying” in the extreme sense, often said to be caused by porn consumption, is really more the exception than the rule among men.

    I think what is often seen as the cause (porn) and effect (objectifying women) isn’t really cause and effect at all. I think men who objectify women are simply immature people with a underdeveloped sense of empathy. No doubt, immature people may watch porn just as mature people may even watch porn, but to say porn is the sole cause of objectifying women just doesn’t make sense when truly examined. Will shallow, immature and selfish people watch porn? Yes. But the phenomenon known as objectifying (women) I think comes more from a shallow, immature and selfish character than it does from porn.

    • “Women tend to think of men’s ideals as the model body type, but in reality, men actually prefer women that are curvier and actually weigh more than 90lbs! The skinny, not very curvy model type is not actually attractive to men, but more women who are perfectly attractive and sexy tend to think that is the ideal and thus are dissatisfied with their bodies.”

      This applies to some men though, not all. I am VERY attracted to typical model sized petite women, I am attracted to women that my friends think are too skinny, they’re still beautiful in my eyes. I am also attracted to women who are of “normal” weight. I am also VERY attracted to redheads and yet I know others are not attracted to them. I do believe on average however most men prefer “curvier” women (although even models have curves) and I believe most people will have someone out there that likes them. I have seen men n women I have thought to be very unattractive but still have partners, even partners who were very attractive, attraction seems far more random than society makes it out to be.

      “But the phenomenon known as objectifying (women) I think comes more from a shallow, immature and selfish character than it does from porn.”
      You have a point here. I doubt extreme porn is creating hatred of women but I think those who already hate women would be seeking such material. You have to have other issues going on to truly see a woman as an object, probably every man I know that looks at porn still falls in love and see’s women as women and not just sex-toys. The ones I know that see women as objects however are more likely to get laid, and go through quite a few women.

      I don’t think it’s healthy though to have your fellow Christians shame sexuality so much, I highly doubt any decent god would give a damn if you looked at porn as long as you still see women and men as humans, still want to live a good life and be respectful. Not all humans want to fall in love with one person even, many people are poly-amorous and when done right their relationships can be very decent. I find it very hard to believe a god would even get angry at someone looking at porn, but I never took the bible 100% seriously and thought of it more as a guidebook. I guess it depends what faith you have, I see lust as completely 100% fine, natural, normal, part of how we actually find love, part of the sex drive and without it our species would never be as successful. Love isn’t the end all, be all emotion, lust is quite powerful but also can be rewarding if you cast aside shame (which probably turns it into a forbidden fruit anyway, INCREASING the lust). Even porn stars, sex workers, people who have sex with many others can be full of love, compassion, and in fact ones I’ve known have been far more decent humans than some of the religious people I’ve known who cast judgment on them. All that judgment n shame is toxic and I dare say religious based shame has done far far far far far far more harm to sexuality and humans than porn could even dream of. I live in a country that still has puritan christian roots and I see the damage done to sexuality by those roots, where nudity is somehow bad n dirty, where sex is taboo and swept under the rug by some. What does it say when previous times had genital mutilation to curb masturbation?

      Sexuality should be celebrated, not shamed. It’s sad that discussions on the topic are hard for you to find. I’m sure you can see how damaging that is to keep it all taboo n sweep it under the rug. Porn of course can be harmful, addiction can arise like any other pleasurable activity. There can be influence but I think external factors affect that influence more. I’ve watched a hell of a lot of porn and I don’t feel the need or desire to watch extreme porn, it’s a turnoff because I love women, I don’t hate them nor want to see them harmed (nor men harmed, etc), I’d rather see fun loving or lustful sexuality. Of the people I know who have issues with misogyny, porn didn’t cause any of it, they all have in common bad treatment by influential and key women in their life (girlfriends or close-friends usually) and quite often bad treatment by many females, enough to cause a hatred for some (usually their own age). Hell I even thought that way for a while, hated women my age because my experience was negative after negative, porn didn’t make me hate them. Even then I still didn’t look for extreme porn. Luckily I got over that hate as negativity and generalizing about people + being surrounded by other men who were jerked around by women continually reinforced the negativity. And funnily enough many of them are looking for love and are lonely and their hatred or disgust only applies to SOME women.

      • Hey thanks for reading my rather long comment. I don’t comment on the GMP very often.

        Yeah I pointed the whole model-type body thing out less as a specific instance to be examined (in other words I agree with you) and more as an example of how women don’t actually know what’s attractive to men and in some ways may actually have more distortions in their view of women than men could be said to have.

        Yeah, the whole porn causing misogyny and objectification I’ve never been able to see or understand that supposed correlation. It’s one of those “cause and effect” statements commonly made that make a lot of intuitive sense and appeal to common sense, but don’t actually hold as much truth in reality. A similar example I think of would be like teenagers playing violent video games and acts of violence. Do teenagers who commit acts of violence play violent video games? Yes, probably. But so do a lot of teenagers who don’t ever commit such acts and wouldn’t hurt a fly (I think of my rather nerdy friend who has always been into the Halo games fanatically over the years – he finally got his license and he avoids driving whenever possible because he is afraid of hurting someone else!).

        “I don’t think it’s healthy though to have your fellow Christians shame sexuality so much, I highly doubt any decent god would give a damn if you looked at porn as long as you still see women and men as humans, still want to live a good life and be respectful.”
        Couldn’t have said it better myself. As a Christian thinker and leader (in my own thoughtful and reflective manner) I have it within myself to try and correct such things about the Christian subculture. The first thing to do is to change myself, then liberate others to do the same. You cited some older happenings with religion and sexuality – those are indeed some of the roots Christianity has come from (asceticism and such). Christian leaders and thinkers today are trying to correct these false ideas about sexuality, but they are in the roots and are hard to eradicate completely (almost like trying to take out Socrates’ influence on philosophy for example). One in particular I think of is John Piper with his whole idea of “Christian hedonism.” There is also Rob Bell’s book, aptly titled “Sex God.” I mention those to evince that Christian leaders see this problem, but it may be some time before their corrective ideas will actually take root, effect and precedence over the other ones we’ve inherited from our more ascetic ancestors. Anyways, I fully acknowledge that the Christian church has a lot of distorted thinking going on about sexuality and it doesn’t help that it’s not discussed very often or freely (but isn’t sexuality kind of a difficult topic socially for any culture – even the nonreligious?).

        ” I find it very hard to believe a god would even get angry at someone looking at porn”
        I think God gets angry when people lust, but not necessarily in the authoritarian and legalistic and moralistic we tend to view God (unfortunately – also something I think we’ve inherited from those of the fundamentalist movement or those before them etc.). God might get angry or sad for our sake. I think he sees our loneliness and emptiness underneath our lust that becomes angry and/or sad that we are ailed by those. Not sure if we’ll agree here due to worldview differences and varying levels of commitment to the Bible, but I think God is far more understanding and empathetic than we often think. I don’t think God blindly get angry over the symptoms – he sees within our hearts and what is really going on and driving us to do the things we do. In a lot of ways, the punishment for sin is sin, itself. All “morality” really turns out to be is God’s guidelines for how to best run the human machine (to use a metaphor). Things are considered sinful because they are unhealthy for us – not because God is an authoritarian moralistic tyrant who wants everybody to conform to his every wish. Learning to view every one of God’s actions through the understanding that everything he does is motivated by love has helped change my view of God vastly for the better even though I can’t always understand why something might be bad for me. That is where faith comes in. To, as Philip Yancey describes faith, “believe in advance what will only make sense in reverse.” A big part of faith functionally is believing God knows best and has our best interests in mind even when we cannot see them. But God is patience with us as we learn to see ourselves, life and him more closely to reality (the way he sees those things). So I think God understands when we can’t see what’s good for us and is patience and even hopes to give us the growth and ability to see with greater clarity what is good for us. In relation to porn, this is why I still believe it’s a bad habit and an imperfection. Morality just turns out to be God’s advice for how to best live successfully as a human and as a human was meant to live. Even without morality, the studies (particularly the work “yourbrainonporn.com”) show porn is unhealthy – but I know you’d just say moderation. Further than studies, what I’m more concerned about, as I mentioned, is the relational aspect to it. I don’t want to be addicted to porn if and/or when I get in any long term relationships in the future. I don’t think that a women who’s character I would be genuinely interested in and attracted to would probably be okay with me watching porn. What say you?

        • Don't Be Hypocritical says:

          @Steffan…

          I’m not a Christian (I do believe in some aspects but not all, so I don’t give myself a religious label, just spiritual) but I do know people who are and dated a guy that is actually in seminary school right now who as you could guess, is very religious (he’s Presbyterian and very accepting of others and their beliefs so he’s a great example). I learned a lot from him and I would challenge you to be careful. Maybe the reason you feel guilty and wrong about it is because you know its wrong. Pornography is NOT ok in the Christian faith, and you know that, which is why you feel the guilt. Pornography will not (most likely) ever be ok in the Christian faith…it’s too much lust, too much degrading women and men, too much giving in to your personal needs and addictions without thinking of God first. So my challenge to you is to stop trying to find a loop hole…stop trying to find a reason that it’s OK…and just understand that your sinning, it’s wrong in your faith, and that isn’t likely to change any time soon. If your going to be a Christian, don’t be a hypocrite. I know and love a lot of great Christian people, and Christians get a horrible rep because of hypocrites who try to justify their sins. Yes, God loves you anyways, but that doesn’t mean keep doing it because he’s going to forgive you no matter what…Your taking advantage of him. So if your keeping your faith, KEEP YOUR FAITH, and stop with the porn. Work hard at it. You can quit if you set your mind to it, I promise. My ex who was religious started watching it at a young age, felt the guilt, felt the shame, and quit! I found my current boyfriends trail of porn (who isn’t religious) with horribly degrading topics (in some cases abuse (in my opinion) of women), I confronted him about it and expressed my concern and fear of/for him, he was ashamed, knew it was wrong, and he quit. He’s been clean since August! You can do it…I promise. If your ashamed, and worried it will affect your life in the future, it probably will. So just break the habit. Your life will not be any less without it, I promise. Both of my boyfriends have been happy sexually (or just in general because my ex was celibate) and show no suspicious signs of doing it or wishing they could. It’s just not a part of their life and they don’t have to worry about it anymore 🙂

          I’m not looking for a response or an argument here (particularly from Archy and Erin…you guys may need to take a breather from this topic). This is just for Steffan. I’m not telling you what to believe, but if your going to claim to be Christian, please don’t be a hypocrite. I’m tired of people tearing down a lovely religion with their selfish desires. You can quit, lose that guilt, and God won’t have to keep forgiving you for the same thing over and over anymore 😉 Good luck!!

          • Question. Can a marred christian couple make porn for their eyes only?

          • @Don’t Be a Hypocrite

            I can appreciate this concern and I thank you. And I was in-between as to whether to respond or not because you said you weren’t really looking for a response. But maybe my perspective and response will be helpful for other Christians or readers..

            “So my challenge to you is to stop trying to find a loop hole…stop trying to find a reason that it’s OK…and just understand that your sinning, it’s wrong in your faith, and that isn’t likely to change any time soon.”
            I’m not in denial that porn and lust is not recommended by the Bible. Nor am I trying to defend it. I just added my thoughts to the conversation/discussion. Perhaps that looked like trying to find a loop hole because I don’t buy into all the simplistic cause and effect beliefs that surround porn consumption.

            “If your going to be a Christian, don’t be a hypocrite. I know and love a lot of great Christian people, and Christians get a horrible rep because of hypocrites who try to justify their sins.”
            So much here to address. I, at least, don’t believe I’m trying to justify my sin. I expressed that I believe it’s wrong and something I would like to be without. My perspective is one I believe is rooted in the gospel. I think every maturing and growing person could technically be called a hypocrite. A hypocrite is either 1) : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion or 2) a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.
            Any person who hopes to grow or mature in any way comes to believe or feel a certain thing is wrong and that it must change, but in the mean time there is a discrepancy between belief and action. In this way, I think everybody ought to be hypocrites. However, the trait of hypocrisy that tends to irk us the most is the denial that often is coupled with it (and is more often accompanied and found in the first definition). This is why we must avoid the first meaning of hypocrite – the putting on of false appearances. We should own our imperfections, they are what make us human, able to be related to and draw us to God and others in our need and insufficiency.

            “Yes, God loves you anyways, but that doesn’t mean keep doing it because he’s going to forgive you no matter what…Your taking advantage of him.”
            This is a thorny issue, but a very important one to understand. I’ll try to offer a rounded response the best I can. People say that God loves us just as we are, but too much for us to stay that way. I believe that’s true and I stated in a response to Archy my further thoughts on morality in relation to God which is closely tied to this idea. People who are from the outside looking in on the Christian life and faith would naturally have a hard time understanding this. From the outside people tend to view Christianity through a very religious and legalistic lens. Maybe C.S. Lewis can explain my thoughts on this a little better, “We might think that God wanted simply obedience to a set of rules: whereas He really wants people of a particular sort” (Mere Christianity p. 80). The idea of “getting away with things” is an odd idea which fails to truly understand the gospel and grace. Once you come into a relationship with God and know his love, grace and forgiveness, you don’t really think in terms like that inasmuch as you’re truly knowing him. Religion and religiosity is about doing the right actions to please or appease God. Christ says, put your faith in my love for you and out gratitude obey me. In reality (though many Christians and other people have distorted the gospel and made it much less than it’s profound and powerful truth and more like legalism, moralism and a religion) Christianity is the anti-religion. More to the point J.I. Packer explains “It has been said that in the New Testament doctrine is grace and ethics is gratitude; and something is wrong with any form of Christianity in which, experimentally and practically, this saying is being verified. Those who suppose that the doctrine of God’s grace tends to encourage moral laxity (“final salvation is certain anyway, no matter what we do; there our conduct doesn’t matter”) are simply showing that, in the most literal sense, they do not know what they are talking about” (Knowing God p.137)

            “So if your keeping your faith, KEEP YOUR FAITH, and stop with the porn. Work hard at it. You can quit if you set your mind to it, I promise.”
            “’m not telling you what to believe, but if your going to claim to be Christian, please don’t be a hypocrite. I’m tired of people tearing down a lovely religion with their selfish desires. You can quit, lose that guilt, and God won’t have to keep forgiving you for the same thing over and over anymore”
            I appreciate the encouragement, but like I said, I hope to use this opportunity to share and help people understand my faith a little better from the outside maybe. There isn’t a one to one relationship between affirming Christianity, being a Christian and following to the letter every Christian doctrine. The irony in your comment, if I may point it out, is that people who try to do this are in fact the people who end up being hypocrites in the repulsive sense of the word because once they realize they cannot be perfect, they end up settling for trying to appear perfect. This is the result of moralism, “religion” and legalism which is not the way of the New Testament and the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus called the broken and those who knew they were sick rather than those who thought or convinced themselves they were well or self-sufficient. Working hard may not be the worst advice – however, it comes down to WHY you are working. Any “growth” or “maturing” or “virtue gained” by mere effort of will is going to collapse eventually. God changes us from the inside out and the whole religious “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thing doesn’t work in the end. Change and work can even be detrimental spiritually if done for the wrong reasons. For instance, many people are actually trying to “get their act together” as a way to control God. They don’t want to rely on him because they don’t trust him. Thus, they try to work on themselves and try to earn God’s favor. This is futile religion and legalism again.
            I assume you’re familiar with the parable of the prodigal’s son (which should really be named “the parable of the two sons” because it’s no more about one than the other, the argument could be made that it’s actually more about the older brother than the younger). This parable is really the heart of the gospel. It shows the two paths men take. Long story short, the older brother is trying to use his “goodness” to somehow control or make his father owe him. The younger brother, though a fool and broken mess, owns this fact about himself and knows there is nothing he can do to earn his father’s love. But it is the younger brother who actually ends up closer to the father than the older brother who can’t stand it when the younger brother is taken back. The reason why Christians can have such a bad reputation is because so many of our churches are filled with older brothers! And all the other brothers have bullied and kicked the younger brothers out. But Jesus and Christianity, the anti-religion, is for the younger brother, not the older. This is what was so radical about Jesus’ message and why the religious leaders hated him. The equivalent of the pharisees today, our “religious leaders,” are older brothers too and don’t understand the true gospel. As an succinct and accurate presentation of the gospel, well written, simple and profound, I would highly recommend Timothy Keller’s “The Prodigal God.”
            Coming back to the issue. “Setting our mind to it” may be helpful if done with the proper motivation (God’s grace and love) and reliance on God (for him to renew our desires). However, I also outlined several instances, where change and action and such may actually be detrimental to our spiritual journey – and we should heed these lest we fall into legalism, moralism and true hypocrisy eventually – for no one can make themselves good by themselves and sustain it ultimately. To try and keep God’s commands without God’s power will (as C.S. Lewis alluded to in that first quote) not make us the sort of people God wants.

            In conclusion, remember, “Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important” (C.S. Lewis). All the best 🙂

        • Women I am attracted to probably look at porn as well, doesn’t phase me at all. I know a few who look at porn and they’re some of the best friends you could have.

          Porn CAN be unhealthy like all activities that are fun, people get addicted to video games, movies, music, drugs, etc whilst others do not. Moderation is key of course but also identifying if you can handle that medium, I stop n start porn whenever I want and it’s just biding the time until I am in a relationship since I am single at the moment.

    • Steffan,
      Steffan,

      I’d like to address a few things you’ve said in your post.

      I do believe porn is largely negative. Although, I don’t think my point of view is “extreme”. And perhaps I am being hyper-sensitive about this but I think when you attach “extreme” to anything, it automatically gets a negative connotation. A negative connotation I don’t think I or my argument deserve. So I just wanted to clear that little part up.

      I’m about 10 years older then you and when I was a a teenager, the internet was just coming about. We had dial-up. Not everyone had an i-phone or a lap-top. Internet porn, while available but it wasn’t available like it is now. And from that experience, I’ve seen a distinct change in men from that time and when the internet (and consequently porn) began to be more prevalent. You would think that as I got older, the men I was dating would have become better at sex. But I actually experienced the opposite. Where when I was younger, the men might have been less experienced, where more ernest. As I got older, some of that ernestness seemed to have disappeared. I was being asked to watch, dress and perform acts that the guys I was seeing had seen in porn. How do I know they saw them in porn? Because they told me and showed me. At that time, I was trying really hard to please men. To be their fantasy. Over my own pleasure. That was my mistake. Sometimes I had experiences where guys would just do things to me, without asking. Sometimes they would do things that logically wouldn’t bring any real live woman any real pleasure. So while I totally understand and believe that men on a very logical level understand that porn is fantasy and that reality is reality, that doesn’t stop people from being turned on by what they are visually seeing. Which means (and you might appreciate this since you are a psychology student), that part of the brain is tricked enough to believe what is happening is real enough to draw a full physical response to it (erection and lust). That doesn’t mean that we don’t logically understand that movies are fantasy. However, if something is drawing a human emotional or physical response, there is a part of us that does infact believe the fantasy. It’s over simplistic to say that because people logically know what is fantasy and what is reality that that should be the end of the story.

      I do believe that men are able to understand that porn is fantasy. But this doesn’t stop men from being turned on by it. And it doesn’t stop people from bringing things they see in “fantasy” into their own bedrooms. Now we all do know that Harry Potter or James Bond is fantasy too, but rarely are people trying to conjure up spells and drive Ashton Martins in real life to abed in their fantasy. And that is the major difference between movies like James Bond and movies like porn. Men are not trying to re-enact a James Bond movie. They know it’s fantasy. Great. But a lot of men do infact try to re-enact o re-create things they see in porn in real life with their real partners. This is a distinction I think we need to pay attention to.

      I agree that women can have distortions about their own bodies and looks. Do I believe they have them more then men? I can’t say I agree with that. I do think that women are under undo pressure and stress from all the images they receive about what their bodies should look like and be to be sexy, loved and accepted. While there is increasing pressure on men and their bodies, women are largely used to sell products. Our bodies are used to sell all kinds of things. And we are more likely to see barely dressed female models then we are to see barely dressed male models. I do think that there are things women need to work on those. Such as not buying into those ideas and not buying products that support those ideals. However, a lot of women do do these things because women are human beings and are imperfect just like you right? And just like you learned to accept God’s grace and love for your imperfections, the same should be said for women and theirs right?

      I do disagree that if someone believes porn alters person’s beliefs, that simply means they are insecure. The reality is that a good healthy majority of porn exploits the very things that women are naturally insecure about being used for. And a good healthy majority of porn does exploit the idea that the only women of worth are those that are young, large breasted, thin, white and young. It does not make one insecure to believe that about porn. For some, it’s a truth they see in the industry. But I also think that why a lot of men gravitate toward porn can easily be breed out of their own male insecurity. Lets take a closer look at what porn does for men. It creates a world where no woman says no. Where the women undeniably lust after the men in a very aggressive masculine way. It creates the world where no man has any ED problems and all the women..or most.. are eager and willing to do ANY crazy thing a man wants and she is usually very beautiful. The woman LOVE everything the man does and never complains about anything that may be happening. He is a sexual stud. So in a lot of ways, porn is “fantasy” because it takes away a lot of the ways men themselves feel insecure in their real human interactions with women. Both men and women have insecurities. But since porn caters to largely men more then women, it treats our insecurities differently. It creates a perfect world where men don’t have to worry about their insecurities and where women’s insecurities are exploited to extremes.

      I do agree that women can have self-confidence issues and have their own body distortion ideals to work and deal on. But I just ask you have the same compassion, openness and sensitivity to them and their imperfections just as you later ask women have for men.

      It’s commendable that looks aren’t everything to you. And yes, it’s true, a great personality can make someone more attractive and a bad personality can make someone less attractive. However, this really does very little in the grand scheme when men are looking at very beautiful, young women in porn. Infact, I think a lot of women feel like men can be hypocritical on this point. Because it sometimes seems like men expect us to be these super human, super confident feminine women in the light of a world that largely distorts the idea of what a normal woman’s body looks like and in the light of their husbands or boyfriends looking at things like porn or Maxim. It’s almost like you expect women not to be affected by looks while men themselves are extremely affected by women’s looks. And while I do understand that personality matters and accounts for a lot, we can not deny that looks matter and account for a lot for men too. Which is why porn can be a weakness for men. And when you tell women that they don’t have to be as beautiful as the women in porn, it really isn’t all that great a message to begin with. And it does kind of point to a distorted few of how women should look.

      But I do agree that the problem isn’t soley men. I also don’t think it’s soley women are even “mostly” women as you eluded to when you suggested that women are greater purveyors of their own body ideals then men. I actually think women get a lot of that from both male and female media. And if you are Christian, then I am going to use a little Christian Theology and talk about Satan’s special war against women since women are the ones that bare off-spring, since Mary was the one that bore Jesus. There is hate from Satan for women specifically since women bare children. And I think we can see how women are attacked on both sides.

      In closing, I like your message for women. To approach the issue with compassion and understanding. I also agree that women need to build their self-confidence. I ask in turn that you do the same for women and approach the issue with compassion and understanding for them in return. That criticism of our bodies or how are insecurities are all in our head doesn’t help. That shaming us and guilting us are terrible motivators. I liked your message there and I hope you can return that to women in kind. I ask that you understand your own insecurities and what may drive you to seek out porn. And that if a woman believes that the media and porn has unrealistic ideas about her, that she might have a worthy idea and not one just born out of insecurity.

      I also agree that porn is not the sole cause of objectifying women. But it has a pretty big hand in it. I also disagree that only shallow, immature people objectify women. I actually think mature, kind and good people can objectify people for all kinds of things. It’s not a matter of black and white.

      All in all, I think we all just want to be treated with compassion and understanding. Because none of us are perfect but we all want to be treated with respect. And I think for a lot of women, porn feels pretty disrespectful to them.

      • Erin, thanks for reading and writing.

        I don’t think there was too much I disagreed with in your response. I’m not really one to nit-pick (though I’ll probably end up doing that following this paragraph for the sake of continuing the conversation) things that don’t exactly match up with my view as long as I can see the intent behind it is good and comes from a place of understanding and critical thinking. More so, I guess what I mean to say there is that I felt positively after reading your response. I realized there very well might have been imperfections and mistakes in my perspective as I wrote – but this, to me, is all the more reason to write and express one’s perspective – to learn through interaction and dialog.

        Yes, I think I gave room to the idea that porn may very well influence men. The science and chemical aspect (dopamine etc.) makes a lot of sense to me. Also, I’ve taken psychology of addiction already, so tolerance and such makes sense to me (which is why porn addictions can lead to ED).

        As far as the reality-fantasy debate you make an interesting counter-point about logic and rationality vs. what may actually be happening. I’d say that’s a fair point. Like I said, I think the science-chemical aspect of porn use and addiction makes sense. But on the other hand, if a man can still logically separate the two (fantasy and reality) – I guess it would depend what frame of mind and faculties he is using to determine his attraction whether or not the chemical-psychological effects of porn actually effect his real life interactions and view of women. My point about movies and such was more that a person can logically separate the two in terms of expectations for what they can or should be able to find in real life. But you make a good point about how men who have watched porn may thus naturally try those things out. From a psychological viewpoint that makes sense – we learn various schemas from what we observe externally. That indeed could be a very real negative aspect of watching porn.

        As far as distortions and women’s and men’s view, I guess this is a largely a subjective question. All I can cite is my own experience where I’ve noticed women’s insecurities about things that are ridiculous. Like I said, even very attractive women have insecurities about the way they look somehow.
        The reason women’s “bodies” are used to sell things is because it works. This actually kind of reinforces my point I think. Studies have found that women and men alike tend to be attracted to and more likely to buy something when women’s faces or bodies are involved. Men because … they’re attracted to women. And women because they scrutinize other women’s physiques and style in order to compare and contrast or better their own. Interesting huh?

        “However, a lot of women do do these things because women are human beings and are imperfect just like you right? And just like you learned to accept God’s grace and love for your imperfections, the same should be said for women and theirs right?”
        Definitely! Though, I must admit I am even terribly flawed and imperfect at accepting God’s grace and love for my flaws and imperfections. But this is what I strive towards as I grow. My point about insecurities and distortions in women’s own view of themselves was less to throw blame around and more to shed light on a factor that I think a lot of people don’t realize is there and affecting the whole issue.

        “I do disagree that if someone believes porn alters person’s beliefs, that simply means they are insecure.”
        If I said “simply” then I take that back. I’ll have to disagree with your disagreement here – that is, if you understood what I was really saying. What I was saying was that other people’s unrealistic beliefs only affect you if you let them. This is a healthy mindset that many do not have. In part, it’s called having an internal locus of control and it’s very healthy! My point was that no other person’s unrealistic belief can make us insecure, only our beliefs about ourselves can make us insecure – which is soo true.

        “The reality is that a good healthy majority of porn exploits the very things that women are naturally insecure about being used for.”
        Yeah, for sure. This is why I said that the true lie of porn and the media is that appearance and sexuality is all there is to a relationship.

        “I do agree that women can have self-confidence issues and have their own body distortion ideals to work and deal on. But I just ask you have the same compassion, openness and sensitivity to them and their imperfections just as you later ask women have for men.”
        Yeah, I think it’s absolutely brutal and terrible the lies that women believe about themselves and their worth often times, it’s inhumane. I believe self-compassion is something we would all do well to learn to practice more. The essence of it is basically not to foster any self-talk of things that we would not also say to a close friend. We often treat ourselves terribly – much more terribly than anyone else.

        “It’s almost like you expect women not to be affected by looks while men themselves are extremely affected by women’s looks. And while I do understand that personality matters and accounts for a lot, we can not deny that looks matter and account for a lot for men too. Which is why porn can be a weakness for men. And when you tell women that they don’t have to be as beautiful as the women in porn, it really isn’t all that great a message to begin with. And it does kind of point to a distorted few of how women should look.”
        I’m just going to have to admit I don’t really understand this section very well. Maybe you just didn’t understand exactly what I was saying. I wasn’t saying that women shouldn’t be affect by their looks or shouldn’t care, but rather that they shouldn’t care SO much in light of the fact that looks are only a part of what a man considers (and more so as you are dealing with wiser and more mature men I believe). Certainly porn can be a weakness for men in many many ways, not disputing that. Hmm, I don’t know quite how to convey this.. but I don’t know if I’d say, at least from my perspective, that the women in porn are “beautiful.” I think something has to be real in order to be beautiful and real things often (read: always) come with flaws. I think when women think of men watching porn they jump to the most negative conclusions for them about what it could mean – e.g. “His expectations for how women look are being distorted, are unrealistic etc.” Often, for guys, watching porn usually just means he’s lonely or feeling emotionally empty. It’s more like drinking and escaping the real world with some fleeting pleasure than it is about expecting women in real life to look or act a certain way. Just my perspective though.. But this is something I think a lot of women don’t understand.

        ” I also agree that women need to build their self-confidence.”
        I’m actually not even asking that, but that would be a side-effect. What I’m asking or rather, suggesting, is that women build realistic expectations for themselves and don’t buy the lies. Remember, like I said, a lie takes two people – the liar and the believer.

        “That criticism of our bodies or how are insecurities are all in our head doesn’t help.”
        I spoke of insecurities less as a criticism or blame-throwing, and I hope you understand this, and more as a pointing out of one of the components of the issue that is often ignored. But you’re so right, we need to have compassion about both women and men for their imperfections. To add to my advice, I would say that instead of attacking the symptoms of the disease, we need to address the disease itself – which is much much harder and why less people end up attempting it! The disease (true cause) may be insecurity, loneliness, running from problems rather than addressing them, or simply coping with life the only ways we know how. I don’t think people really suffering from personal problems as much as they suffer from bad solutions to their problems and we all have them in varying degrees! Women who base their self-worth on their appearance. Men who use porn to cope with emotions they don’t know how to express or address.

        “if a woman believes that the media and porn has unrealistic ideas about her, that she might have a worthy idea and not one just born out of insecurity.”
        Hmm I am saying that a woman that’s secure and has realistic expectations of herself and doesn’t buy into the lies etc., will not feel such a need to harp on the media or porn as the cause of all the problems. A women could be secure and believe the media has unrealistic expectations – actually, in fact, this would have to be the case. A realistic and secure women would be able to realize that the media and porn paint an unrealistic picture and idea, thus, this is why she does not have to internalize it’s falsehoods. On the other hand, I fully acknowledge this is a tall order and how difficult and epidemic body-image problems are for women. I speak more of a solution than the problem, and I think that’s where you might be misunderstanding me on this point I’ve seemed to repeat several times now.

        “I also disagree that only shallow, immature people objectify women. I actually think mature, kind and good people can objectify people for all kinds of things.”
        Hmm, eh, I’m all for thing not being black and white and there being exceptions.. but in the context of our dialog, I definitely do not think mature, kind and good people objectify women in the extreme, unhealthy, degrading and problematic sense. I will stand by my point, which I at least thought was fairly profound, that objectifying women comes more from immature and bad character than it does from porn even though immature people may watch porn. But calling a direct cause and effect here is bogus I think.

        You say that porn feels disrespectful to women. Do you mean the things watching porn causes makes women feel disrespected (follow up question: what things)? Or do you mean that men who watch porn cause women to feel disrespected? Or do you mean that the production of porn as a whole and the messages it conveys is disrespectful to women? I’m not trying to disagree with you or anything, but just wondering what the root of it is. As I mentioned, it is for this exact reason that I wish to cut it out of my life.

        Thanks again for this conversation. I hope what I have said makes more sense and my motives and words can be understood better with my more nuanced explanations here.

  12. married and confused says:

    ok I have read all your guys comments and some make me feel better and others dont . Im a married woman that has a husband that watches porn . now Im fine with him watching it with me but its when he watches it alone that bothers me because his attitude changes towards me . now I heard that from alot of guys that it means im not satisfying him in the bedroom . well I dont know how that is possible because we do it every week atleast once if not more and when we do it . I do this whole fantasy porn star thing with him . whatever he fantasys I usually am right there doing . hes fine when we watch it together its the alone I dont get because when we started our relationship he told me porn eww I hate that only to find out he likes porn by catching him on it . now I know for a fact that he had exs that made him unease about sexual stuff . but he also knows Im not that way at all . the only fantasy I have not done is the threesome and its not for a lack of trying but when I figured ok maybe an escort would work so he could have his fantasy get it off his chest and be done with it but he is like hell no I dont want a hooker . so I asked him well what do you want , he wants to find a friend or even a couple thats friends with us and try it that way . I asked him who and he said he didnt know because no one we know is what he likes .plus they would be appauled im sure .basically I am at a loss . when I ask him about the porn on the computer he lies and says it was a pop up . I even caught him on a live chat sex one and seriously to me thats borderline cheating I would think or am I wrong ? my dad says its like going to a strip club and I even said ok well Ill ask if he wants to do that with me and he said he doesnt like those . now I wish he would just tell me the truth . I dont get what the problem in telling me the truth is .I know Im not small like those girls on the video but seriously I use to be . ive had kids so yes im on the heavy side but he still says im sexy . when we watch porn together he tells me he invisions me as the girl . so why is it on the nights he watches the damn thing that he rejects me from sex and then later in the night watches it alone ? explain because im confused

    • “now I heard that from alot of guys that it means im not satisfying him in the bedroom .”
      Sometimes, depends on the couple. The guys that talk about not satisfying him in the bedroom are usually referring to relationships where the intimacy has died off, where the wife isn’t interested in sex as much anymore and it can become very frustrating for the husband to be rejected and go without intimacy. Stuff like once a month or less from what I’ve heard from guys, some even go years without any sex.

      Does he do it when you are busy or unavailable to have sex? Maybe if you’re really tired me might just jerk off instead so he doesn’t want to bother you with sex and assume it’s better to just jerk off?

      “so why is it on the nights he watches the damn thing that he rejects me from sex and then later in the night watches it alone ?”
      That’s a question only he can answer. Might be addiction, or might be at that time he prefers his hand? Is it the same type of porn? He sounds pretty ashamed of porn.

      It’s something you have to discuss with him in a non-judgmental way, avoid raising voice and arguing (so he doesn’t get defensive). It’s not necessarily about you but it could be a hangup of his, you may be the perfect wife and still some people have trouble with addiction or other issues going on.

      Live sex chat is an issue, I dunno if I’d call it cheating but it’s far more interactive and if you haven’t agreed to it then it’s not good. Boundaries need to be set.

      Are there other issues going on in your relationship? Fighting? Any resentment? Is there a lot of stress in his life? There are many reasons why someone will reject n avoid intimacy with a partner so it’s best to ask him what they are, if he doesn’t answer then maybe suggest a counselor. It may very well be something with him, he may feel inadequate for you, but only he knows. Try not to let the possibilities beat you down though, no point tearing your hair out over possibilities. I wish you both well in reconnecting.

  13. wellokaythen says:

    I’ll be consistent with my advice I gave on another thread: if you meet someone who has totally unrealistic, inhuman expectations about love and/or sex, then ultimately you’ll just have to let that person have those expectations and let that person be disappointed by his own insanity. If a man is disappointed that a woman doesn’t look or act like his favorite porn star, then that’s his problem, not her problem. Move on and look for sanity elsewhere. There’s no sense in debating with people who have lost touch with reality. Let someone who clearly prefers fantasy go off and live in make-believe – it’s a waste of your life to try to bring them into your world.

    • Having dated a lot wellokaythen, there are a lot of men that do infact hold expectations of how women should look and behave sexualy. Maybe a guy doesn’t expect a woman to have perfect fake breasts but he does have other expectations that she perform certain sexual acts for him because of what has been fulfilled through many visual images that have reinforced for him what women should be doing in the bedroom. Alot of things have become normalized through pornography and women are expected to perform them.

      • But its not a matter of ability. Its a matter of willingness on part of women. Any woman can perform those sexual acts and please the guy she is dating, pursuing interested in. Ofcourse she might not be happy doing them or enjoy them herself. But she CAN if she WANTS to.

        But what if erotica like 50 shades becomes as widespread and popular among women as porn is to men? Answer: “I’m only game if youre Christian Gray”

        • So a woman should perform acts that she doesn’t even enjoy just to make a man happy? Is that what you are saying? I’m sorry, I don’t see how that is a positive experience. Sex is about two people. It is not about pleasing men only. In porn, it is about pleasing men. But that’s not real life. Real women should have a say in their sexual lives and not be forced to perform acts that don’t bring them pleasure. Especially when sex is about two people, not just one.

          • Who said they’re being forced? Sexual compatibility is key here. Finding someone who matches your sexuality is a good thing, personally it’s probably a dealbreaker to never give or receive oral. Real women do have a say in what they want to and don’t want to do, and their partners also have a say in if they want to stick around or not. Why stay with someone who’s sexuality doesn’t match your own enough if that is important to you? Willingness to try is a good thing as well in some respects as long as it’s done in a respectful way, ie don’t push the other to do an act if they don’t want to but still you don’t have to stay with them.

            Are you completely sure porn has normalized things or has it simply brought more kinks or acts out into the open? Bj’s, anal sex, BDSM, etc all predate porn. Acts I’ve seen in porn that I want to try are acts I already wanted to try before looking at porn or did no one give head in the 1900’s?

            My question is what acts are the ones these women don’t want to do, and why? Blowjobs? anal? Dressing up and roleplaying? None of those should be forced but they can be done safely and in ways to make it more acceptable but it depends upon why someone doesn’t want to do it. Bj’s for instance could be because of fear of a penis in the mouth, or disgust (zomg you pee from it! I’ve heard), could be previous sexual abuse, severe gag reflex, etc. The couple needs to discuss what is ok, what isn’t, why they’re ok or not ok, figure out what they can do together.

            The most common expectation I see in men is one that their partner should hopefully be willing to have sex with them, eager to have sex and not let the fires dwindle to a flickering candle.

            “In porn, it is about pleasing men. But that’s not real life.”
            No, it’s not. Seriously do you even watch porn? I can see thousands of videos of men pleasing ONLY women. Porn is about pleasing the VIEWER and you need to select and find what pleases you. Seeing porn as ONLY pleasing men is the wrong attitude to have. Real women do have a say in sexuality, even in porn, if you ever bothered to look at a wide variety of videos instead of focusing on what you assume to be representative of all porn. Why is it I’ve seen plenty of real life examples of sex in porn and you don’t seem to think it’s possible? If you continue to close your eyes about porn and assume it’s only about pleasing men then you’re going to have a shitload of issues with porn, and the men who watch them.

            “Sex is about two people. It is not about pleasing men only. In porn, it is about pleasing men.”
            What a load of bullshit. Are you just trolling now? Porn is about pleasing men AND WOMEN, and ignoring the fact women are pleased in porn too is annoying and not to mention insulting to every man and WOMAN who enjoys porn. I’ve done porn on a webcam TO PLEASE A WOMAN so I know for a fact what you said is bullshit.

            • Hi Archy – I believe you were contacted by GMP when discussing this topic specifically with me. You are more then welcome to talk about the topic and your views. Freely. Please give the same grace to others. GMP firmly advised us about our interactions online. If you are unable to comply with that request, I will be forced to report you.

              Thank you.

              • If you continue to demonize porn and generalize negatively about it, saying such tripe as “Sex is about two people. It is not about pleasing men only. In porn, it is about pleasing men.” then I will be forced to report you. As someone who HAS PRODUCED PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL FOR SOMEONE I find it extremely insulting. All you need to do is say you feel it’s largely about male pleasure, just don’t act like it’s ALL about male desire. That’s all I ask of you, try to portray porn more realistically because much of your comments at the moment give zero room for female pleasure in porn and act like 100% of the time it’s about men. We don’t need people to demonize porn with gross generalized statements that are completely untrue, especially on a website for men with many of them porn viewers implying they are negative for watching it by proxy. It’s as silly as me saying marriage is only about women’s pleasure. The gmp also advised us against generalization, so take heed of their words for that.

                • I have never heard GMP “advise” against “generalizations”. Infact, alot of the articles on GMP are “generalizations”. It would have to be to talk to a wide range of people. Unlike you, I don’t think making “generalizations” is always negative.

                  If I believe porn is negative, I can infact say porn is negative. This isn’t a crime. It is however something you disagree with and that’s okay. But it is not in any way, shape or form against any rule or law to say that porn is negative and harmful. If I believe that porn is negative and harmful, that is exactly what I am going to say. Just as you say porn is positive and express that view point often. I have long stopped responding to those posts of yours. And have let you have your say.

                  This is all I will say in regards to this. If you continue in not allowing me my opinion and resorting to put-downs and shaming, I will have to report you. You were previously warned about this. I am giving you a chance to step back. I do not jump on your posts when you want to post about porn. Show the same respect. If I have to deal with this again, you will be reported.

  14. wellokaythen says:

    Defining porn as a substitute for a partner is only one way to look at it. I don’t think that’s necessarily the best way to frame the topic.

    It’s strictly a substitute for a partner only if the assumption is that having a partner means that you are sexually exclusive and that sex with your partner is the default setting for your sexual pleasure. It tends to assume that only exclusive, in-person sex with one partner is the way to go, and any other erotic source is only a temporary stand-in.

    My view is that an individual man still owns his own sexuality even in an exclusive relationship. Every individual has some right to self-pleasure, regardless of what the partner is or isn’t doing. A man masturbating to porn is not necessarily taking something away from his partner or “going elsewhere.” Maybe so, maybe not. I for one don’t want every single piece of my sexual pleasure or sexual imagination owned by another person. If my masturbating alone in private is a violation of my relatioship, then my feeling is that I’m in a dictatorial relationship.

    In-person sex with a partner is one activity. Masturbating solo is another activity. Logically, when doing two activities at different times, there are at least four possible explanations: one is a supplement to the other, one is a substitute for the other, one is in parallel with the other, or the two are unrelated.

  15. Why do married women read those erotic novels and secretly fantasize about Christian Gray while having sex with their husbands?

    There are countless double standards against male sexuality that are slowly becoming more apparent.

    Seriously, most married men who watch porn would love to do all the things depicted in their favorite porn with their wives as well. But how may women who get off on 50 shades of Gray, would do that stuff with their real life bf’s ad husbands?

    Its about time we collectively get rid of the myth that women are morally superior.

    • Why do anything with their wives when they can watch a much more hotter, younger, prettier woman do those things and fulfill all his fantasies right before his eyes?

      Personally, I think 50 Shades of Grey is crap and I really don’t get the popularity it has polorized with some women. I actually roll my eyes when I hear women simper over it. But there are a few key differences you are over looking by comparing 50 Shades of Grey. For one thing, 50 Shades is one book that weirdly has become an anthem for men to use against the entire business of pornography which is a billion dollar plus industry that’s been around a heck of a lot longer. 50 Shades is about ficitional characters, in a fictional world who aren’t living or breathing or remotely human in the sense of how you and I are human. Porn on the other hand, while also fictional characters, in a fictional world, does infact use real human beigns to protray such things. 50 Shades does not use a derogatory male name to put down men in some manipulated and twisted “sexy” way. If it did, it might be something like “50 Shades of A$$hole Grey”. Porn seems to be very highly motivated to refer to women in all manners of “sexy” and shaming name calling such as pronouns like “slut” and all it’s bedfellows. If I had a dime for every time some guy wanted to watch “Slutty *insert your fantasy of choice here*”. Apparently nurses, school teachers, school girls, mom’s and babysitters are all sluts. Yay!

      Women are not morally superior. But neither does that mean that what men gravitate toward in porn is okay just because books like 50 shades exist and because women aren’t superior.. Thanks.

      • Erin

        There’s a huge presumption youre making there.
        Most men, who regularly watch porn, would love do those things depicted in it, with ordinary looking everyday women, rather than only watching superhot girls on a screen.

        50 shades is perhaps more detrimental to men than women. As a man I’d be happy if the novel was titled ’50 shades of asshole Gray’. Atleast it would assure me that most women who love to read it regard the man negatively. But here is a man who likes to do what can easily be described as disturbingly sick things, to impressionable young women, yet he is hailed as a hero by women because he is extremely good looking and powerful. Id say any woman who gets off of this novel is poisoned for the ordinary man. I wish them best of luck in their endeavor to find such men in reality. The popularity tells us how women set vastly different sexual boundaries with different men based on how ‘superior’ they are. It leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth and prompts me to be more skeptic of female sexuality.

        The porn watching guys are just ‘perverts’ and ‘losers’ who would kill to do SAME things with the nurses, teachers, baby-sitters, school girls, moms they come across in their everyday lives.

        • Tim – I noticed that you said….”…rather than only watching superhot girls on a screen.” Which leads me to think that what men want is to still watch superhot young women on screen do the things they like AND have their female partners do the things they like. There are two things that bother me about these statements. First, is how much men do infact want their own female partners in real life to perform tricks they see in pornography. A hefty majority of pornography caters specifically to men and often gives very little thought to what actually brings real pleasure to real women. The second part of this statement that bothers me isn’t that men are more interested in “ordinary” girls, they are interested in performing acts with the “ordinary” girls in real life AND indulging and enjoying in watching “super hot” ones in movies. Fun for men.

          The second part of your comments that interests me is how eager you are to talk about 50 Shades of Grey. And not pornography. Even though pornography is the topic of this comment section. It seems that 50 Shades of Grey has become a convenient tool to avoid discussions of pornography and I have seen many people (manly men), and not just you, use it as a distraction to avoid a discussion on pornography. Now I know there are articles on this very website that deal with the topic of 50 Shades of Grey. Perhaps these articles would interest you.

          Finally, your last sentence confuses me. Are you actually saying it’s a positive that men want to do the things they see in porn with real women..nurses, teachers, baby-sitters (this one and the “school girls” I find particular disturbing…I guess it’s hot to think about banging your children’s care givers and young school girls), moms and nurses..this baffles me since most porn is mainly about what brings men pleasure, not women. Since most porn is made to cater to men….why would men want to copy a medium that primarily caters and focuses on men’s primary pleasure but not women’s when sex is about both men and women right?

  16. Some of these answers are way too long.
    It’s rather simple. Generally, men get off through porn and women get off through touch. . So men watch porn and women get massages. Many men give their women trips to the spa as a gift. How many women have told their men to go to a strip club and see its as a gift?

  17. stop being a pair of tits,

  18. and yes, it does make you want to do things you shouldn’t…

  19. I am a widow—happily married for many years from the age of 17. My husband and I had a great life and I lost him to cancer after a brave battle. I never knew porn existed…I know he had playboy ect, but we never discussed it. 2 years later I discovered online porn. My new bf could not believe I had never seen (also never played a video game, did not watch tv…very sheltered) and showed it to me—I am immediately hooked–to the point it made my bf uncomfortable (who enjoys it himself)
    really hooked—dailey—want to quit—I have learned so much—never heard of dp, facials tho my hubby and i did things other than vanilla—backdoor for instance– I did not know this world existed and now I can’t stop—and it has ramped up my desire 1,000% I am telling you this from the view of a 50 y/od childless (couldn’t) women who was introduced to this at age 50 and now has a real problem. I am fit (size 4) and look 15 years younger (genes) but now I am afraid of what I might be capable of as I have been protected so long….I will try therapy to stop—it is interfering in my life and I have to hide it now that my bf senses I like it too much—so yes, from my perspective it is dangerous, and addicting, I guess I am venting because I don’t know where to turn and no one I know would ever believe it if they knew—-poor teenagers—I can’t even imagine being raised with this! No, I do not read romance novels—prefer non-fiction. there is absolutely no correlation.

    • I think this highlights something important that usually doesn’t get discussed too often. Men usually begin watching porn at very young ages. How would they know what they REALLY are into and what parts of their sexuality have been manipulated to respond to certain things because of the matter of simple exposure? They wouldn’t know. You don’t watch a medium since you were a child and not be unaffected by it.

  20. Just to go a different way with this…there IS a scientific aftermath to all of this. When men watch porn it may seem ‘harmless’ but it has serious side-effects on the brain, and ultimately on your relationship with your partner. When you watch pornography, high amounts of dopamine are released, creating a feeling of real pleasure and satisfaction. “Electromagnetic waves are emitted from the screen with a fantasy that triggers a chemical reaction in the brain, releasing dopamine. The result is a feeling of a real, yet delusional, state of pleasure and satisfaction. The dopamine reinforces the new connections with newly acquired sexual tastes, and the next thing taking place is the man asking his wife to engage in a sexual fantasy that was downloaded into his subconscious.” The results of this lead to the man wanting to do these reenactments with his partner, and when those fail to create the same feeling of pleasure, things really go wrong…

    “After such a disappointment in the actual experience due to the unrealistic fantasy-based expectations, the brain not only refrains from releasing dopamine; it actually dips below baseline levels. It goes into a depression response that results in disappointment, dissatisfaction, and unhappiness in the marriage since the wife is “not up to what he expected”. Despite the efforts by many women to “spice things up” and even subject themselves to the demeaning acts that have been artificially downloaded into their husbands’ brains, the pornography-addicted husbands will only enjoy themselves for a very short while before losing interest. Meanwhile, the wife feels unattractive and emotionally abandoned despite her best efforts, not knowing that she couldn’t compete with the dopamine buzz offered by pornography.”

    Read the whole article here…
    http://www.suhaibwebb.com/ummah/men/how-watching-pornography-changes-the-brain/
    You can continue living in your dream world, saying its fine and doesn’t cause problems. But until men AND women choose to grow up and face reality and CHANGE what they are doing, these sad results will keep happening…

    • What a grear post Pattie. Thank you.

    • “You can continue living in your dream world, saying its fine and doesn’t cause problems. But until men AND women choose to grow up and face reality and CHANGE what they are doing, these sad results will keep happening…”
      Porn, like many things, CAN be addictive for some but acting as if it’s all bad for everyone is one of the worst generalizations I’ve ever seen. TV can cause issues, gaming, hell any pleasurable activity can cause issues, they all require moderation and some people lose control and become addicted.

      “The results of this lead to the man wanting to do these reenactments with his partner, and when those fail to create the same feeling of pleasure, things really go wrong… ”
      For some maybe, but how many generalizations do you want to make in your comment?

    • ht tp://sexademic.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/explaining-porn-watching-with-science/
      What do you think of this Pattie, is the science here legit? Erin, you might be interested in this part:
      “Male porn users self report higher levels of actual and ideal intimacy.

      “In particular, the difference between the two groups with regard to total Ideal closeness of adults suggested that pornography users craved closeness/intimacy more than their counterparts.””

    • John Anderson says:

      @ Pattie

      “and the next thing taking place is the man asking his wife to engage in a sexual fantasy “

      I don’t really see this as a problem. We all have fantasies and people should make their desires known to their partners. Are you going to prevent your partner from reading, watching or talking to people lest they get an idea that you might not agree with?

      • John you missed the second part of that. It’s not the sexual fantasies that are necessarily the problem, its the expectation that ‘real women’ are going to act like the women in the videos…and if they don’t thats when the problems start to arise. And when it comes to the last part, I think that if you respect your partner and they you, you can come to a compromise. So yes, if my partner is talking to, reading, or watching something I don’t enjoy, I will voice my opinion, but that doesnt mean I give them an ultimatum if it’s silly or doesn’t really bother the relationship, we’ll work it out. And if it’s something I STRONGLY feel is HURTING the relationship, they should respect that and stop, or decide it’s more important and leave….

        My whole point is, if it’s causing problems in your relationship, and you find that watching porn is more important than fixing your relationship, you should leave. Getting unrealistic expectations is the ultimate problem here. When men are let down, and women are let down, feeling ‘not up to standards’, thats heartbreaking! My thoughts are we probably cant change the men now, because they were raised with this being fine…but if you can avoid a problem in the future by teaching your children differently, then why not? If you can teach your children to respect women, have one woman in your life and focus on them and their sexual experience, don’t get unrealistic expectations about what women are like from crazy porn, and treat your future partner like they really mean something to you and that they’re the only one you have eyes for…then personally (if that is what you believe in) I think you should do that. But thats clearly, my opinion.

        • Of the videos I see, the women are aroused, and willingly want sex. I fully expect my partner to at least sometimes be aroused, and wanting sex. Is that bad or something? or do you mean other expectations are in place because the only real expectation I can see that is common is the couple wanting to have sex with each other.

          • wellokaythen says:

            “Of the videos I see, the women are aroused, and willingly want sex.”

            THIS is the most common central fantasy in the porn that men watch. This is the main draw of the fantasy, more than the particular details of positions or situations or what the women look like. I think many women analyzing hetero male porn get hung up on the way that the characters look or how they accessorize the sex and miss the fact that the main draw is the simple portrayal (unrealistic as it may be) of a woman’s sexuality. She’s aroused, she wants sex, and she enjoys it immensely and unabashedly. What he wants to do is something that she enjoys, too. That’s by far the most common element in the porn that men watch.

            I’d guess in 99% of the porn that hetero men watch, there’s a fantasy woman having an orgasm or otherwise thoroughly enjoying the experience. If porn is totally about a man’s pleasure, it’s a curious sort of selfishness.

            • Mr Supertypo says:

              Good point Wellokaythen

            • WellOkayThen, perhaps the most common factors of porn is that the woman are acting like they are enjoying what is happening. But you can’t deny the fact that many women are targeted to uphold ideals about women’s bodies and worth through porn. Young, thin, white and busy women dominate the industry and this can’t be ignored because it’s obviously a very strong message a lot of men are conveying. How do you think it feels for women 30, 40 or 50 to see their husbands continually looking at basically the same age group of women? Sure, some porn is out there of older women. And they are fetishized for it. Like it’s abnormal to consider older women attractive.

              Also, while men probably very much want to see a woman unabashedly enjoying herself, usually the things that happen in porn, that are done to women in porn, don’t even bring women real pleasure. So it’s not really about a selfless desire to simply see women enjoying themselves so much as it is a desire to see women enjoying themselves in the ways men want women’s pleasure to be. Not how a woman’s pleasure might realistically be.

              I have heard so many men say that they wouldn’t actually do the things they see in porn to a real woman. because the things done to women in porn aren’t all that pleasurable for women often times! So why do men like seeing things they KNOW aren’t even that pleasurable for women in real life? It’s not because men just want to see women get so much pleasure. It’s because men want to see women unbashedly and happily responding to how men want women’s sexuality to be. Not how women’s sexualitiy really is.

              So I have no doubt that men enjoy seeing happy women freely expressing sex. however, it’s not that men enjoy seeing women happily expressing themselves more intune with a real woman’s sexuality so much as men want tos ee women happily expressing themselves in an over idealized way that cater’s to male fantasy first. And that is why porn is primarly about men’s pleasure. Not to mention that you can probably find 10 blow job videos for everyone one video you could find of a guy orally servicing a woman.

              It is not fair to expect women to ignore the visual messages they are receiving that men are sending them by looking at porn either. IT’s not fair to say, “Hey hunny, ignore that young 18 year old blond! I just want to see her happy! I am just that much of a benevolent fellow like that!”

            • While that might be one of the appeals of porn – seeing a woman enjoying herself and into sex – it doesn’t always translate to the bedroom for a reason.

              I am a woman who has always had a high libido. Higher than my husband’s, for sure. In fact, I was the one who couldn’t get enough sex, and he was the one rejecting me 13 out of 14 days… Guess what, while he was denying me, he was getting off on porn instead. I got upset, but asked if I could watch with him, he didn’t acknowledge I’d even spoken, spewed something about how porn is natural, and the cycle of rejection continued. Til his internet stopped working.

              I had the most enthusiasm for bed, until he killed it unfortunately. See, two of the guys I’ve been with (the one before I met my husband, and my husband himself) have been porn users, and they have something horrible in common. Whether they are turned on by the excitement women in porn have, they aren’t willing to work for it in the real sense. They expected me to unfailingly give them blowjobs each and every time we had sex – which I did, no complaints from them about my technique, they sure enjoyed them – but even when I asked, they refused to go down on me in return or at all. In spite of it telling my husband that it was one of my favorite things. Weren’t interested in touching my body, refused to do foreplay on me. After their blowjob, just wanted to stick it right in and get right off, and that’s it.

              Men might watch porn for titillation, for variety, for help masturbating, because they think the women are hot, or for seeing a girl’s unbridled enthusiasm… They sure aren’t learning any tricks or tips on how to please their lover. Sure not learning how to have good real life sex. And wouldn’t good real life sex trump porn?

              Hopefully there are other guys out there who aren’t like the two men I just described – maybe they watch porn, but they are still attentive lovers who genuinely are turned on by their partners. Unfortunately, I think there are a fair number of people who do fail to be good lovers because of their dependence and preference for porn. So that should be a caveat to be aware of. If you use porn, ask yourself – are you present in the bedroom? Are you doing things that both of you like? Are you sensitive to your partner’s needs? I’m sure there are many who are, but then again, there are also many who aren’t.

              • “Men might watch porn for titillation, for variety, for help masturbating, because they think the women are hot, or for seeing a girl’s unbridled enthusiasm… They sure aren’t learning any tricks or tips on how to please their lover. Sure not learning how to have good real life sex. And wouldn’t good real life sex trump porn?”

                Depends on the person. Some find the porn itself is more satisfying and maybe masturbation gives them more pleasure. Humans are strange creatures.

                “They expected me to unfailingly give them blowjobs each and every time we had sex – which I did, no complaints from them about my technique, they sure enjoyed them – but even when I asked, they refused to go down on me in return or at all. In spite of it telling my husband that it was one of my favorite things. Weren’t interested in touching my body, refused to do foreplay on me. After their blowjob, just wanted to stick it right in and get right off, and that’s it.”

                I am someone that wants her to feel bliss so I pleasure her as much as I get pleasure, I’d go til she said stop. I dunno if I’d look at porn in a relationship as I’d prefer real sex but if I did I’d still want real sex far more and I have no issues giving and recieving oral. If my partner liked porn I’d pleasure her whilst we both watched it if that was ok.

                I think sadly you just had 2 shitty husbands, did they have anything else in common such as lack of attention to the relationship? Not putting in effort non-sexually?

                I use porn because I have no partner and it helps but if I had a partner I’d very much rather be with her. Most men I hear that use porn say they use it because they aren’t getting any sex or anywhere near enough. I find it quite rare someone would prefer porn to sex.

        • That makes sense. Why should I expect much from women? Better to settle. Sex should be infrequent and with little variety. Men will just get used to it. They just have unrealistic expectations of women.

          Or, maybe you have unrealistic expectations of men.

          I’d be far more likely to counsel my sons against marriage.

        • ok, I understand that all people see the viewing of porn in different lights. And I am not saying that there isn’t justification behind every argument. But the truth is that most men watch porn. They don’t do it to replace their lover, they simply do it because there are certain fantasies that their significant other isn’t able (or expected to) fill. This doesn’t mean that men love their wives or girlfriends any less, it simply means that they want to fulfill certain desires or fantasies. This is not to say that it can’t be a problem. There are certain men that see women as objects, although this was happening long before they got married and has nothing to do with porn. Also, women don’t understand a single thing about what it’s like to be a man dealing with sexual desires. The closest way that I can describe it is as hunger. When women (and men) get hungry, their body tells them to eat. Now imagine that your body tells you that you are hungry about 10 times a day. That is what a healthy man feels about sex on a daily basis. As for women that fear that porn is going to replace them in the relationship, I really don’t know what to tell you. There are obviously some insecurities involved and you may want to look further into where those stem from. If you approach your husband in an accusing manner in order to make him feel guilty about watching porn, you are only going to push him away. You would be much better off talking to him about his fantasies and seeing if you could be involved in some way. Trust me, this is a huge turn on for guys. Of course there may be some things that you aren’t comfortable with, and that’s ok. We understand. In the end, allow your man to have fantasies, but be open with him about what you think is acceptable.

          • Pesario, I actually do think porn is in some ways, a replacement for a patner, even if it’s temporary. It might not mean that a man loves his wife or girlfriend any less but I think it still does make some women feel less loved regardless. Less important. Less special. Less like being open and vunerable with him. Less united. Less like fulfilling his fantasies since he is seeking out temporary fulfillment through otehr women that are more times than not, younger and more attractive that his partner may be. I don’t think a lot of guys get that. Lets set up a hypothetical situation. Lets say your wife was doing something that made you feel disrespected. She didn’t think it was disrespectful to you but you did. You sat her down and talked about it and she was pretty strong that it wasn’t disrespectful to you even though that’s simply how you saw it/felt about it. What’s the solution in this case? For her to keep doing the thing she thinks is not a big deal? Or for her to work on that thing she is doing that while she may not feel is disrespectful to you, you do?

            This is how it is for a lot of women. They have certain thoughts about the part porn plays in their lives and the end result is that it makes them feel less connected and even disrespected within the relationship. But if you are in a relationship with a man that basically thinks you shouldn’t feel that way about it, it seems like more men think that the way they see it is more important than the way their woman sees it. And they will even reduce her feelings to one of insecurity. Which sometimes is part of it and sometimes not.

            Why shouldn’t a woman be insecure? Her man is looking at all these crazy things with all these beautiful women. It’s already enough that she has to deal with that through-out the day. You two go out, you notice a pretty woman. You two go to a movie, there is the next new hot young starlet, you watch TV, there are some young cheerleaders for Monday night football. But now women can’t even get away from it in their own homes where their own men are seeking relief for fantasies that weren’t probably the thinks men were thinking of to the degree they seem to be today.

            Women may not understand where men are coming from but neither do men understand where women are coming from. And perhaps women should ask themselves why they feel insecure about certain things but perhaps men should ask themselves why they need porn so much and why they need so much fantasy. To a degree that I think their father’s where able to survive happily without.

            If you approach your wife or gf by telling her she is insecure and she needs to work on herself, and make her feel guility for the way she feels about porn, you are going to push her away. If you enjoy and defend an industry that really works off objectifying and degrading women, don’t you think it’s natural to see how you could be pushing your female partner away?

            Do you know what is a huge turn on for a woman? For her man to treat her like she is special and sexy and wonderful. Not a man seeking to watch videos of other women, of cheerleaders, nurses, babysitters or whatever. I don’t really get why men are having so many fantasies of so many outrageous situations to begin with as much as they seem to be where porn needs to be that much of a supplement.

            How about men focus more on their own partners instead of other women, porn and their fantasies? It’s almost like men don’t want real sex lives anymore but they want it to be more fantasy than anything else. To me, something is sad about that. It seems like sex has become more about fantasies and porn then two people experiences sex together.

            • This only works for some men though, there are plenty of men that have tried to focus on their women, have been pushed away and rejected and seek out porn. Some women need to see the man’s porn viewing as a sign to check that SHE is doing the right thing in the relationship, same goes for the man too. If your partner is dropping back on the sex, looking at porn or other fantasy more then you need to check yourself and make sure you aren’t inadvertently doing something wrong and they need to do it as well. If that passion is burning out then that fire needs to be stoked!

              Some men may prefer it to their woman, some men, hell I’d say quite a lot use it because they’re feeling rejected by their partner and even more use it without feeling rejected and just as a separate thing. Same can be said for women too with their fantasy material whether it be porn, romance novels, vibrators, whatever.

              “It’s almost like men don’t want real sex lives anymore but they want it to be more fantasy than anything else.”
              Some yes, some no.

              “I don’t really get why men are having so many fantasies of so many outrageous situations to begin with as much as they seem to be where porn needs to be that much of a supplement. ”
              I don’t get why some women have rape fantasies. Fantasy’s are often weird n don’t make all that much sense. Things like forbidden fruit, remembering past decades (eg highschool or college), dangerous situations (eg rape fantasies), control and loss of control (dom/sub), fantasies can have no basis in reality at all. There are people that fantasize about objects with paraphelias, some fantasize about furries which are human/animal hybrids, some fantasize about avatar, some about cartoons. There are many fucked up fantasies out there and not all of them are reflections of reality. Women fantasizing about rape probably don’t want to be raped ever. I’ve fantasized myself about an orgy but have zero interest in being in one in reality. I’ve even fantasized about sex with androids (eg the T-X in Terminator 3, one of the androids in Blade Runner).

              None of my fantasies or porn has ever compared to real sex though, and I think for most people it’s the same. I believe it’s used mostly when there is a lack of sex through dry spells in a relationship or being single. I don’t see why people would goto porn vs their partner unless their partner has done something terrible to them, or they lost the love, or they’re addicted.

              • Didn’t we agree that we would no longer engage one another on this topic? I have followed through on my end. Please see that you do the same.

                • Well I’m sorry but when you say shit like “It’s almost like men don’t want real sex lives anymore but they want it to be more fantasy than anything else. To me, something is sad about that. It seems like sex has become more about fantasies and porn then two people experiences sex together..” I’m going to speak my mind. This is a public forum and I have reduced heavily replying to you but there is just some shit that needs to be said. I’m not going to keep silent after hearing some pretty outrageous shit and assuming men don’t want real sex lives but a fantasy life is the wildest thing I’ve heard in a long time, especially since this site is chock full of men saying they want REAL sex and more of it. It’s seriously something so out there that I am really having trouble understanding why you’d think it?

                  • I’ve kept silent after reading some of your pretty outrageious shit. Not sure why you aren’t able to control yourself to do the same. Do you think you don’t say things I want to speak up against? Like how you basically said the only reason men look at porn, or the most reason why men look at porn is because of their female partners? YOu tried to make it sound like the only reason men look at porn is because of the mean old women that deny and reject sexual advances. Well sorry. But there are many other reasons why men loook at porn and it’s time to acknowledge those and stop blaming women why a grown adult man chooses to look at porn.

                    Get off of it already and use some self control by not responding to me.

                    Thanks.

                    • “Like how you basically said the only reason men look at porn, or the most reason why men look at porn is because of their female partners? YOu tried to make it sound like the only reason men look at porn is because of the mean old women that deny and reject sexual advances.”
                      See, the problem is you don’t READ what I say. I’ve never said the only reason was because of wives that withhold sex. I have always said it’s ONE reason, and I’ve said other reasons include selfishness, or addiction, or the couple doesn’t see an issue, or poly-tendancies.

                      “I’ve kept silent after reading some of your pretty outrageious shit. Not sure why you aren’t able to control yourself to do the same. Do you think you don’t say things I want to speak up against?”
                      Use some self-control yourself and actually READ what I say before you respond to it. I really don’t care if you tear me a new one over outrageous shit I’ve said, but please try to at least get it right. The fact you think “basically” the reason men look at porn is because of rejection is a clear sign you do not read what I say. If I say somehting outrageous, either ask for clarity and if it’s still outrageous tear me a new one. I’m a big boy, I can handle it. It’s part of the process of debate and increases my knowledge, I’m learning right now even. But if it sounds like you think I’m only blaming women then either I suck at communicating, or you haven’t read what I said right. Maybe we have different communication styles? But NEVER have I thought the blame was solely with women. I do get the sense that you are painting men as solely to blame and women are innocent lil flowers that never do wrong and are victims to male sexuality, if that’s wrong then correct me.

                      “But there are many other reasons why men loook at porn and it’s time to acknowledge those and stop blaming women why a grown adult man chooses to look at porn.”
                      And if you bothered to read anythign I’ve said, you’ll realize I’m saying that! My comments say that SOME of the blame is with those particular women who reject their men, even then the man himself has some blame too. It’s time you stop reading what you want in my comments, misunderstanding my words horribly and then getting all annoyed about it.

                      “Get off of it already and use some self control by not responding to me.”
                      I will continue to respond to wild claims, generalizations and other negative comments. Use some self-control yourself and stop trying to control my speech on the matter. This is a public forum, not your personal wall to control how you see. Deal with it. I’m not going to sit by whilst people post negative comments that misunderstand men especially and demonize them, nor do I expect anyone else to.

                    • Seriously, do you even bother reading anything I say? You couldn’t be more wrong about me or what I’ve said. I’ve acknowledged the many reasons from day one, why is it so hard for you to understand what I say?

                    • I try not to read what you write anymore since it never leads to a productive conversation.

            • Bone Head says:

              A woman’s feelings are not the source of all relational ethics. If she offended that her man is watching porn but perhaps he is offended that she is not giving herself to him, or that she is attempting to control him with her feelings. She is hurt, He is hurt. He is considered to be a creep and a pervert if he keeps the relationship and fills the gap with porn, but is she really any different? She dreams of being a princess taken care of by a rich, handsome prince that will meet all her needs. He dreams of a beautiful woman who will admire him and share herself meeting all his needs. His desire is sexually charged hers is financial security. Both have imaginary surrogates both find a supplemental fulfillment beyond the relationship. Point is that although the unmet desire is manifested differently it really has the same root.

              When a woman seeks to control the sex in the relationship the man either submits to her or fights against her imposition on him. Many keep their autonomy through porn. Put another way, when a women limits the frequency or the passion of a man’s sex he often feels he must resist the control or he will feel emasculated. When the woman then acts hurt and blames the man he has his masculine autonomy further threatened and has even more reason to assert his own autonomy. Then everybody ends up hurt.

              • Great comment. It will be interesting to see the replies, I find it strange that the woman’s feelings are often thought of more than the man’s. You raise a good point about her potentially controlling his sexuality, who is right? I’m not sure either are right but neither sound very compatible for dating if it’s such a polarized view. There are plenty of couples where porn is used and is acceptable, others however fail to come to terms and probably differ too much on their sexuality.

          • There aren’t many women that actually understand men’s porn usage, I constantly see women trying to guess what men think, even telling men what they think, like, desire in porn, what they fantasize about etc and quite often getting it so terribly wrong. And yes I believe some women are making themselves even more insecure by trying to guess what their men like, and hurting themselves with their own negative thoughts, letting them beat up on their self-esteem.

            A guy could be watching a video and he’s only thinking about the sex itself whereas she might be trying to analyze everything from her clothing, age, makeup, etc and making assumptions that is what he likes. Hell the guy could be fantasizing about the GUY in the video, only he will know what he is fantasizing about.

            I think a lot of men are keeping quiet on what they like. I’ve seen recently a bunch of guys explain what they like, what they want, only to have it misunderstood by some people and then demonized over it, generalized against, etc. Having people ask us to open up and then having them tell us our own experience is fucking annoying.

            • The Blurpo says:

              In my experience, women are just as “perverted” as men, just for some lame cultural or educational reason (mom or dad didnt raise me for this) they fight hard to hide it. So I guess deep inside, the majority of women understand but they are scared not so much for the guy, but for themselves. They yell at the guys, who endorse in “dirthy” activities and call free women for sluts, because thise individual ruin the the peace in their minds they so worked hard to achieve. IMO offcourse.

              • You’re damn right they’re just as perverted. This whole topic is annoying, it feels like there are few women that will actually listen but there are women who will not only get annoyed at us looking at porn, but they will ask us why we like it, then misunderstand or misread what we say and demonize us with it. I’m not sure most women are really willing to listen? It’s no wonder there is a huge divide with the genders.

                • The Blurpo says:

                  I think its cultural, the way how they have been raised. But frankly I dont think lot of the people who often engage in this conversation is actually interested in a fair exchange, they are more interested in getting their own judgement out. Maybe for impress other women in the conversation or outside it (lurkers).
                  But beside that, I dont think people are incapable to understand, simply they refuse to understand maybe because it contrast with what they have been taught (spelling?) or it contrast with their agenda. Who knows….

                  Anyhow, the anonimity of the internet, give some people fresh oxygen to vomit their prejudge.

                  • The Blurpo says:

                    ” people who often engage in this conversation is actually interested in a fair exchange,”

                    it should have been, people who often engage in this conversation is actually NOT interested in a fair exchange,

                    • I agree that people in this conversation aren’t actually interested in a fair exchange. Do you know how many times Archy has told me this or that and made negative comments about me? Do oyu realize how often Archy talks about this topic? Yet you made no personal comments to Archy about any of these things.

                      I agree that people in this conversation aren’t actually interested in a fair exchange. Especially when they try to medically diagnose you and suggest you should be “tested” for things when they don’t really know you. Never mind that they didn’t talk about the actual topic with you, they just went on to suggest something about you that wasn’t true and then further when on to suggest that they should be “tested”. And this isn’t even the first time they insulted you. …. yeah..lets talk about people who don’t want a fair exchange.

                    • Erin, I tried to point out some behaviour that was really rubbing me and I think others the wrong way. I’m quite happy to still have a decent exchange and I am not trying to paint you wholly as negative, but I did see a few things that weren’t helpful to the discussion. And yes if I have done some, point them out, I don’t mean to sound as harsh as it’s probably coming across.

          • wow, so much for civility. I am sure most men would not mind there wives being free and slutty and having fantasies that do not involve them…wait a second—they do! No yelling needed here—just let me be free…. I unfortunately have found if one acts free and slutty they are not wife material—hence the madonna/whore syndrome—that is really messed up

            • The Blurpo says:

              Sue: yes it is messed up, for both sides. And that is kinda sad.
              Men judges women, women judges men, we are all so busy judging each other that we miss the point. IMO judging others are a sign of weakness and immaturity. There is nothing wrong watching porn, and a happy woman could wery well be a first quality wife material. But far to many people still lives in the ’50s, and that means still lot of racism and lot of prejudge on people sexuality and much more. Personally I dont care, I have known prostitutes, professional dancers, swingers, bdsm’ers, gays, traditionalist, religious people, and many more. As a DJ I come quite around, both in various clubs, bars, gay bars, private parties ect. So I really dont focus on people appearance or sexuality. The major turn off? intollerance and prejudge who goes hand in hand with stupidity, and violent behaviour.
              People need to get over it, to grow up. We are all different, and trying to force reality in their narrow view will only burn them out. Difference make us stronger and happyer. And variety is natural. There is nothing wrong in bein gay, there is nothing wrong in bein a swinger or a poly, there is absolutely nothing wrong in chosing a traditional lifestyle. But trying to impose it on others….well thats when the music stop, and people gets hurt.

              • Judgements are a fact of lie Blurpo. You made a judgement about me and who you thought I could be when you thought I had AS.

                There might not be anything wrong for *you* for people who watch porn. But there are a lot of men and women that I think do see something wrong with pornography.

                By the way, pornography is very full of prejudice, judgement and racism. It catagorizes ethinic women based on their race, as well as ethnic men. Women are regularly called derogatory slurs. There are stereotypes created through porn and cartoonish characterse created in porn. Porn mostly caters to men and women become the object degraded more then the reverse. So yes, there is a lot wrong with porn. That’s not to say that people that watch porn are bad people. The issue really isn’t that basic. It’s much more diverse and complicated than that.

                If you were really a bed-fellow for intolerance and prejudice, then you should pay more attention to the amount of prejudice and intolerance that is born through porn. And the way women are catagorized based on their age or body parts like cataloged car parts in a magazine.

                Now you are free to believe that there is nothing wrong with being a swinger or gay or whatever. That’s your opinion and that’s great. But that doesn’t mean others need to agree with those lifestyles. People can still treat others respectfully though even if they don’t agree with their lifestyle.

                I actually believe porn has imposed a lot on people actually to conform to a really narrow ideal of sexuality. And I think it’s hurt more people than it’s ever helped.

                The reality is that men are not treated the same way women usually are in porn. GMP does articles on mainstream commericals or advertising that comes up that shows men poorly. Alot of men come into those articles feeling angry that their gender is being protrayed a certain way. A way they had no say in. And for women, they feel the same way about porn. Just like men feel degraded by the way they are protrayed in media, women feel that way too. And it’s important not to write that off.

                • The Blurpo says:

                  ” Judgements are a fact of lie Blurpo. You made a judgement about me and who you thought I could be when you thought I had AS.”

                  You mean, fact of life? otherwise, im not familiar with your terminology, and beside that, I ask you a question since I see you and my bro, have some traits in common, so its not so impossible. If I judged you, I would have said….You have AS, instead I wrote do you have as? see the difference?

                  Anyways I do agree in lot of your observations, but as other have pointed you out, not all porn are the same. So a supergeneralization, is actually not possible, because it would be incorrect. People are free to have their own opinions, but they are not free in imposing them. As I said before, there is nothing wrong in bein gay/les/lgbt and all the other acronymes and labels, so long they dont impose it on other people. But there is nothing wrong in bein a trad either. Again so long you dont impose it on me. I dont force you to do clubbing (im also a DJ remember) , if you want to do clubs, well I hope you have a great time, but I wouldn impose it to you.

                  “I actually believe porn has imposed a lot on people actually to conform to a really narrow ideal of sexuality. And I think it’s hurt more people than it’s ever helped.”

                  And about sexuality, the conservative way is actually more repressive than porn, since it doesent offer much variety, and often gay/poly/les ect are totally excluded. Porn at least offer some variety, therefore along all the defects is actually inclusive, thus becoming actually a positive. But porn it is important not to forget that porn is only fiction, just like Harry Potter or Freddy Krueger.

                  • Yes, I meant “fact of life”. As I said, I am not the best typer. And I usually don’t care about that stuff but you brought a judgement about me so I will give you the same due respect back.

                    You did judge me. Which is why you “asked” the question in the first place than went on to gently suggest and ask if I have ever been tested despite me telling you flat out I don’t have AS. Almost making it seem like you know me better than I do. It was a derogatory personal attack that had nothing to do with the conversation. Even if I did have AS, does that change my level of intelligence and the validity of my comments? If I did have AS, why would that even matter? You only asked that, not to have a fair discussion, but to put me on a level under you, someone who doesn’t have AS. Because I can’t think if any other reason why you would ask that unless you thought it changed the validity of my opinion.

                    By the way, I am still waiting for you to answer where I went “berserk”. More shaming language you used to attempt to shame me.

                    Yes, people are free to have their own opinions and they are not free to force them on others. Although I don’t remember when talking about a subject, even passionately, became equal to forcing it onto others.

                    I do not think porn offers the “variety” that it is trying to be claimed. I think that most men are looking at what mostly seems to be out there the most. Which is young hot babes doign things that please men even nothing is really being done to said women to please her.

                    At this point you may begin making a point for “amateur” porn. However, there is no way to know that both people actually consented to having their image and movie used. There is no way of knowing if it’s really “amateur” or two people hired by a porn production company to look amateur. Just because porn is “amateur”, doesn’t mean it’s better or “healthy”.

                    I also fail don’t understand why certain people keep trying to act like porn is this equaltarian media that is all about celebrating different kinds of women. And when did it become a positive thing in celebrating women by putting women into narrowly defined catagories about their worth and appeal to men based on a certain body part or their age? What person really believes it’s positive that women are catagorized into groups for young and old or big boobs or small ones? This is positive? This is healthy? It’s positive to list women like this? this is sexual empowerment?

                    Yes yes…we all know porn of older women exsists. But the greater majority of porn is about women in a very select age group. I also don’t see what is so positive about how porn usually labels different kinds of women in porn. As a woman, I don’t see what is healthy about men putting us in narrowly defined boxes of our worth based on our body parts or our age. Certainly doesn’t happen as much to men as it does to women in porn too. It’s all about the woman being teh object to male satisifaction.

                    And when a woman isn’t put into a lame catagory about her boobs or age, she is being called some kind of four letter name because it’s “exciting”. Yay! Another thing to degrade women with!

                    Oh and yes, porn is fiction, just like Harry Potter and Freddy Krueger. But I don’t know the last time I ever heard of someone masturbating to Harry Potter or Freddy Krueger. ANd I don’t remember the last time I heard someone ask their partner to dress up or be more like Harry Potter or Freddy Krueger. But these are all things men do when it comes to porn. So lets not pretend that porn is just the same exact thing as other bits of fiction.

              • All I know is when I first saw porn (please see post dated Sept 13 on this article)—I liked it—too much —it became a problem for my bf who loves porn (he’s the one who showed me) but after a while he didn’t like me liking it so much—I agree you should not judge people—BUT in a relationship there must be compromise—on BOTH sides—or its not going to work. I learned this through 32 years of a great marriage with my husband….Both people must take responsibility for each others happiness—sexually and in every aspect of life. And I too have seen many different kinds of people—strippers and prostitutes (who I actually tried to help—crack is not a pretty thing)—the only reason I was around these people is my husband was a guitarist for a rock band-comes with the territory—but strangely enough–I never saw porn till a couple of years ago—and I am flabbergasted on how it has affected me….but, thats just me…..

                • The Blurpo says:

                  I know what you are talking about, have experienced also something similar, but on other things. Yes a relationship IS a compromice between two persons based on trust. If the trust vanish, it ends the relationship. And usually, not always but generally, the trust vanish, after the compromice part fails…ie infedelty.

                  Working in clubs and parties, sometimes its difficoult not avoid certan people, especially pushers, they often ask me if I need something to funk up. Not interested, have seen far to many friends going the down in the wrong way (crack as u say its not pretty thing,a nd its very difficoult to go clean if u r addicted to it). And no thanks. Women who frequent certan places, trying to hook up with drunk men for money. And I even knew a girl, who I lost contact with years ago, only to meet her walking the street corners looking for custumers. WTF?! tryed to help her, but she doesent want any help, since she lost her child to social services, she doesent care about anything any more (yes women also loses theyr children). Anyways I introduced her to competent people who deal with thise situations, so I hope they help. Long story short, uintil now I have seen both the funny part and the sad part of this society at least some of it. Try to help where I can, but I aint any miracle man.

                  About porn, well sometimes certain pictures trigger emotion in us, that why porn and horror movies are so powerfull and popular. One trigger our reproductive instinct,a nd the second our survival instinct. For me, they are just entertainement, no more no less. But for some people, its a lifestyle (not necessary bad, not necessary good, depends)

                  • MR_Supertypo says:

                    Notice, I change my nick from Blurpo to Mr Supertypo, in reference to all my spelling error and poor english 😀

                • Sue, I think you probably had a pretty normal reaction to it. The problem is so many men start looking at it when they are young teens, they aren’t self aware enough to see how it’s changed them. By the time they are young adults, the *damange* is done and they aren’t going to be able to know what they would have been like had they not seem porn in those formative years.

                  • Blurpo and Erin, All I can say is—glad I was born in a simpler time—don’t think I could have handled the over stimulus kids today have to put up with….esp if you are visual—which I am finding out just how strongly visual I am….its funny that Mr Supertypo-haha love the name 🙂 also mentioned horror films–I was never able to watch them either—they affected me far too much and stayed with me—my husband used to say its ok honey its just a movie—but never learned to tolerate it–I am also one the sight of blood can make me faint—-wonder if its neurological….I guess some people can handle it better than others….My late husband watched out for me in so many ways—-now I have to learn how to harden myself up…..

                    • The thing with that stimulus is that over time you learn to deal with it, if you only discover TV after many decades of being alive for instance then it might reallllly be awesome and overwhelming even but if you’ve lived with it all your life than it might just be as casual as brushing your teeth.

                      The first time people have sex many will orgasm quick and be totally overloaded with the experience but we get used to it and it doesn’t overload us usually after some time.

              • Depends on the porn you watch but watching porn itself isn’t really the problem (it’s a medium), but more the content in it or the time of life you do it. Eg watching degrading porn, or watching it against your partners wishes is a problem but watching good content when single, or with a partner for instance is ok.

                I wonder if anyone else actually realizes the most prevalent form of porn is produced by couples? Sexting is porn. Yet I’m seeing comments that are mostly focused on pro porn and trying to suggest porn is bad from the narrow view of porn = the pro porn industry. It’s pretty stupid, why can’t people separate porn from the industry?! The clothing industry exploits children often, but if more people make their own clothes (for arguments sake) would that mean tailoring is bad??

                Porn is MUCH bigger than the pro industry.

    • APatti..

      Ditto!!!

    • I agree 100% with your comment. Men are silly silly creatures…..i had the experience of being with two different type of men, one that never used porn and thought very much like ARCHY in the previous posts, and one that thought porn was normal and well i ended up discovering he had a porn addiction which when he tried to fix he just couldnt 🙁 sad for him.
      I ll have to say that out of the two, the best lover was the one who never watched porn… and i still think of him (blushing 😛 ) and the worse lover out of all the ones i have ever had, was the one addicted to porn, there was no soul in the act and it was very much like a re lived porn scene!:( no flavour to it….
      sadly enough, i know that he still struggles with porn addiction, so much so that after two marriages he ended up marrying a prostitute from thailand 🙁 . I ve seen the girl and she is nothing like a porn star, but i guess that the fact that she was a sex worker gets him off… i dont know…
      ditto

      • You do realize I look at porn regularly right? Not sure how I relate to your ex that didn’t look at porn? These are 2 experiences, have you dated others that have looked at porn? Porn affects everyone differently, I have friends who can handle alcohol and others who can’t just like porn.

  21. Wife for 25 years says:

    Men like sex-men like to watch sex-Men like to have sex-Men like sexy women-Men like their wives.
    It’s not about – feeling like they are missing out- feeling like their wife isn’t attractive anymore-It’s not about desiring someone new-
    It is about: Liking women’s bodies Liking the visual while they masturbate Women are more mental stimulas-while men are more visual Period……..Some men need extra stimulas before taking care of their wives. As testosterone levels get lower-starting at 25 years of age- men sometimes need a lttle help- a little stimulas visually. So women- please stop beating yourself up over this- Your husbands are just doing something that comes naturally- They still love you.

    • Wife of 25 years, a lot of the feelings women encounter when they discover that their partner looks at porn is JUST as natural has his feelings toward looking at other women. Why do we ask women to change but not men? Why do we insist women be the ones to change and adapt and “understand” but we don’t ask the same of men? When it comes to porn, we say “that’s natural for a man” but then we hold women to a higher standard and don’t want to accept how they naturally can feel in response to his porn viewing. That’s not fair.

      • Men already are held to a high standard, and a lot of people ARE saying it’s not right, aren’t you one of them? I see countless women and men telling men to not look at porn especially in relationships, but I also see countless women n men saying porn is fine. Of course it’s a natural urge to be visually stimulated n desire more stimulus, that is up to the couple to decide. If a woman cannot handle her partner looking at porn then maybe they shouldn’t be together, either she has to change, or him…possibly a compromise of lowering the viewing and for her to take the time to understand why and what he is really looking at. I feel women too often assume men are looking at it because the women feel they are less attractive compared to the porn stars but that’s not the case a lot of the time, I’d say the most common reason is simply some folks love to see sex with attractive people.

        The time women should start to worry is if he chooses porn over them, or finds the woman less attractive but even then that could be due to HER or other reasons. Relationships are complicated, if a woman is worried about this then she needs to ensure she is being a decent partner (don’t abuse, don’t treat him badly, respect, love, care for him and he should do the same for you) otherwise it could simply be her behaviour driving him away. But I don’t always see women acknowledging their behaviour can actually turn their man off. That’s only one possible problem.

        Both need to take a long hard look at their behaviour in a relationship and find a way to get along, or find someone else who will better match their needs n desires.

        • I don’t deny that it’s a natural urge to be isually stimulated. I also don’t deny it’s a natural urge to be bothered by your mate being visually stimulated by other people.

          I have no clue what you meant by the whole, “men are held to a higher standard…people are saying it isn’t right..aren’t you one of them?”

          Studies do show that directly after watching porn, men become much more critical and harsh on their own partner’s looks and bodies. I also don’t know where the line is when we say a man is choosing porn over his partner. If you ask me, we are already there with how much a part of a man’s daily life it has become. I don’t think it’s always such an obvious line. I think a lot of men do choose porn over their partner sometimes when they feel like it then expect their partner to be there the other times for when he wants a warm body. If he isn’t being open about his porn use, if he is keeping it to himself, she would have no idea what was going on. It seems that a lot of men toggle inbetween using porn and their partner. It isn’t that a real life partner is better. It’s just that she is different and sometiems porn is different and together a man uses both to make him happy. I think women should be very much worried what is happening with a lot of men today concerning easy access to porn online.

          I think it’s interesting that you were specifically intersted in the woman treating her partner with respect and love but didn’t mention the male partner to do the same. I am sure you believe that both partners should, but it’s clear your main focus is in how the man is treated. I do think she could run a man away if she doesn’t respect him. But you forget that he could be driving her away by his behavior too. If that behavior includes something to do with porn that she doesn’t agree with, he could drive her away too.

          • “I have no clue what you meant by the whole, “men are held to a higher standard…people are saying it isn’t right..aren’t you one of them?””
            What I said:
            “Men already are held to a high standard, and a lot of people ARE saying it’s not right, aren’t you one of them?”
            Erin: “When it comes to porn, we say “that’s natural for a man” but then we hold women to a higher standard and don’t want to accept how they naturally can feel in response to his porn viewing. That’s not fair.”
            High, not higher. There are a lot of people who do not think viewing porn is healthy, that there are big problems with modern porn, that most porn today is degrading to women which I feel you believe, correct me if I am wrong. This is holding men to a high standard, it actually fuels shame in men when we’re told that porn is mostly bad and also an implied level of shame should be felt by those who view it. I can’t help but get this feeling that you really do think men are doing a BAD thing by looking at porn, and you’re entitled to that opinion of course but realize that it actually tries to shame men who look at porn.

            You say we are expecting women to change, but aren’t asking men to yet here you are pretty much asking men to change. There are plenty of people asking men to change, everything from some religions to some feminists. There are people who look down upon men who look at porn and will call them pervs, creeps, and other highly shameful words. What makes you think no one is asking men to change? Are you not asking men to change?

            “I think it’s interesting that you were specifically interested in the woman treating her partner with respect and love but didn’t mention the male partner to do the same. I am sure you believe that both partners should, but it’s clear your main focus is in how the man is treated. I do think she could run a man away if she doesn’t respect him. But you forget that he could be driving her away by his behavior too. If that behavior includes something to do with porn that she doesn’t agree with, he could drive her away too.”

            What I said:
            “The time women should start to worry is if he chooses porn over them, or finds the woman less attractive but even then that could be due to HER or other reasons. Relationships are complicated, if a woman is worried about this then she needs to ensure she is being a decent partner (don’t abuse, don’t treat him badly, respect, love, care for him and he should do the same for you) otherwise it could simply be her behaviour driving him away.”
            I should mention that A LOT I say on this site, you can flip genders and it’ll apply. The last line can swing both ways of course, I was typing the comment quickly and obviously left that small bit out.

            But my intentions are pretty clear that I am simply saying she COULD be causing SOME issues in a relationship, that one could be at fault or both, or maybe they just aren’t that compatible.

            “Both need to take a long hard look at their behaviour in a relationship and find a way to get along, or find someone else who will better match their needs n desires.” As I say in this comment what I am talking about applies to both genders, I have no idea how you think I was specidically interested in the woman treating her partner better when I said “(don’t abuse, don’t treat him badly, respect, love, care for him and he should do the same for you) ”

            When I say “That’s only one possible problem.” I mean It’s only one possible problem. You assume I forget it could be his behaviour, but I do understand that.

            The reason why I said the comment was because it’s easy to blame porn for problems in someone showing affection for another, but everyone needs to remember that it could be behaviour that has nothing to do with porn that is creating the difficulty. Eg, if my partner is being a real bitch one day then I may rather porn or just masturbation without porn to get off than be with her. Of course this door swings both ways and I am 100% sure I will have partners who will not want to be with me for an hour, day, week (hopefully not too long as we would need to sort our shit out) because they’re angry at me, hurt, etc.

            “I think women should be very much worried what is happening with a lot of men today concerning easy access to porn online. ”
            Why is that though? Some men and women definitely masturbated to other people before porn, the mere thought of someone else can be enough. Porn should be treated respectfully in a manner in which the material could be addictive or could cause problems. I don’t think everyone can handle it fine, but moderation is needed whilst also knowing the material CAN BE (not always!) fake, setup, fantasy vs a more realistic situation.

            People need to ask themselves why would someone prefer images/video to a real human body? Is it just to get off quick when your partner is away, busy, unable to help? Is it because you desire people in porn more than your partner? (not all will, some probably do), is it because they’re in a shitty mood with a partner who might be acting like a real jerk? Is it because their partner refuses to be/can’t be with them so their only options for sexual gratification involve masturbation (with or without an aid) or cheating?

            I wouldn’t tell women to ALL be worried but I would simply say to all people that porn is out there, and it’d be a good idea to discuss what is acceptable for your relationship. Some will be worried, some will be fine with it, some will (and do) think it’s great and join in or look at it themselves.

            Can you link the study showing men are more critical of their partners body? Is it ALL men or just some men? Are the men studied a good variety of men of all ages, intelligence, etc or are there other factors at play as well? I’m not saying the study is wrong but I want to see it before I can make a full assessment, I wouldn’t be surprised if some men were more critical on their partners looks. I think something far more damaging to the view of women is women’s magazines and any airbrushed material including some porn, it’s much harder/damn near impossible or financially impractical to photoshop a body in a porn video so they actually have a more accurate portrayal of the women who star in them than some magazines/still images. I believe there was a study showing men liked women who were “curvier”/higher portion of body fat than what women THOUGHT men would like. I’ll try find the study later.

            It’s a hugely complex problem, some are ok with it, some will be affected by it, some couples can handle it, some can’t. It’s a potential risk yes but it’s also a potentially great thing, it can be involved in destroying some relationships and strengthening others.

  22. As a man, and a porn watcher, I wonder if its crossed peoples minds that perhaps its our monogamous relationships that lead to this obsession?

    Is it possible that men require variation, different women, etc..and that porn satiates this need? While porn certainly does not portray the best of love and/or sex, it does display the brute rawness of sex. Think of conquering a village…

    Women, on the other hand, do not have this innate requirement.

    Id say our relationships are at times suffocating to the male spirit. Porn helps us manage that.

    • I don’t know whether or not women have this innate requirement, but I do. It’s a need and it’s not being met. All this whining about porn seems like trying to push water uphill. Suffocating is an unfortunately apt description of it.

  23. Just want to throw my opinion and experience in. (Please excuse grammar and spelling) I have been with my husband for 20 years and we have 4 children. In the beginning I was fine with him watching porn, going to strip clubs, and smut mags. All on occasion. Now that I’m older and less confident about my changing and aging body not to mention illness and business I am very hurt when he turns to porn to do his business when I am craving him and he refuses just to go to porn. Or has already done his thing. I am very happy to give him oral when ever he wants it’s the closeness I feel to him doing it not to mention very turned on. I have never expected anything in return. I have asked him why he would rather use porn and he says he doesn’t know. According g to other guys I am not unattractive. And for my husband I am ALWAYS willing. If he wasn’t using porn I would say my sex drive is higher than his. Porn is starting to mess with our marriage and we are working on things but it has been years and the porn has caused infidelity in our marriage before. In my eyes porn IS a type of infidelity. Especially if it hurts the person your claiming to love more than yourself.

  24. You should try masturbating to images of many well endowed men on a daily basis–its great! and just like him—we need the visuals and crave the variety—that way you are both getting satisfied—its healthy and great fodder for sexual fantasy—and why would he mind that you masturbate to other men ….its only fair—second post–I hope my point is allowed as it is how most women feel…

  25. Oh, and I have never read a romance novel—its not comapreable in any way to the visuals!

    • I agree Xnobla. I don’t think romance novels are comparable either. Although I understand they are fantasy, I don’t know many women that actually maturbate to romance novels. Also, like you said, they are not comparable to an actual live visual of a person.

      Add in the fact that in romance novels, a man’s character in combination with his looks are a package, where the woman falls in love with him because he’s a good man and in porn it’s all about young women with perfect bodies, it’s a little different to me.

      • Erin, for gods sake, unless you regularly watch porn what right do you have to say and generalize about what porn is? How do you know what most men are watching?

        This line “in porn it’s all about young women with perfect bodies,” proves you have NO idea what you are talking about. Young women are only one part of a huge diversity of female actresses in porn, and not all of them have perfect bodies. Hell a lot of pro porn women I’ve seen do NOT have perfect bodies. Seriously, STOP generalizing, you constantly generalize about this subject and it’s very annoying. The only thing PORN is all about is SEX, not young women, not perfect bodies, there are so many porn actresses in mainstream stuff that are in their 30’s, 40’s, hell probably 50’s. There is even granny porn with older actresses. It’s as silly as me saying ALL romance novels feature the same kind of man on the front and are full of rape fantasies.

        Love vs lust, which one is superior? NEITHER. Both are used for fantasy and I find it hard to believe women are not using some form of material for masturbation. What is the biggest selling book in the UK recently? 50 Shades of grey, it’s basically porn but I’m sure none of those women are masturbating to it or at least fantasizing. Even if women are not masturbating to romance novels, they’re still fantasizing about basically “emotionally masturbating” to them.

        • Archy, it really bothers me that you have questioned my right to talk about whatever topic I want. As if I have to prove myself to you more then anyone else simply because we don’t hold the same view on this topic. I am really offended that you asked me “what right do I have…” to generalize about porn. I have every right. I am an intelligent, capable adult. What right do you have to question whatever topic, and my knowledge of the topic, that I wish to discuss or comment on?

          Do you know me better then I know me? Do you know what materials I have read to make myself informed on this subject? Research? Articles? Articles with interviews from pornstars and articles from research scientists that evaluate affects of pornography? Do you think I comment so much about this topic without doing research?

          I make the generalizations about porn because that is what I have come to believe about the industry regarding alot of the data and information I have collected. I don’t understand why I am suppose to adopt your belief about the industry just because you watch porn for sexual enjoyment. I think most porn is exactly about young women with perfect bodies. Breast implants aren’t a big part of the industry because women’s looks in the industry don’t matter. I don’t deny there aren’t sub genres that target different ages and body types. I just don’t think this is the majority of porn and I don’t think it’s any more positive then the rest of the industry either. I don’t deny that granny porn exists. I deny that because granny porn exists, that negates the reality that most porn is of young beautiful women. Porn is both about the sex and about women’s bodies. If it wasn’t, women wouldn’t be so heavily categorized on the epic scale that men in porn simply aren’t. It’s all about women’s breast size, her age, her body, her race where the categories mostly come into play. I know you believe this to be a positive. I don’t. It’s not fun seeing a woman reduced to the size of her breasts or her age or her race and whatever particular “fetish” a man have for her as a disembodied body part.

          Statistically, teen porn/teen sex proves to be very popular search on the internet. In MILF porn, a lot of the women are not sometimes even over the age of 25.

          I am no fan of 50 Shades of Grey. I also think it’s a different category from “romance novels’. I think it’s flat out erotica right? I saw a TV interview that was trying to draw a connection between babies being born in timeline with 50 Shades of Grey. I watched three couples sit infront of the camera and with each couple, the woman insipidly gushed over the book and the lead character while the dutiful husband sat there quietly. I thought the entire thing ridiculous and humilating for both of them. If people only want to have sex because of what other people sell them, they can. But I personally think 50 shades of Grey is garbage that has been marketed in such a way that made it successful. Not because it’s actually good material. And I think people, women, who eat it up, are buying into what someone else is selling them. Does that help clear up something for you?

          By the way, I do think love is superior to lust.

          • Because generalizations skew the information. You can say “I feel porn is mostly about young women” if you wish, I’d probably agree with you. It’s when you say “in porn it’s all about young women with perfect bodies” is when I object. I actually would agree with you a hell of a lot more if you didn’t generalize. When you generalize, it just adds even more shame to people like me and suggests we’re all watching the same stuff. I have no issues with you saying you feel most porn is of young women with perfect bodies, I might say there is a lot of other porn out there but what you say is probably true from what I’ve seen for the majority of porn, but not ALL porn.

            Would you like me to say all women are gold-diggers or some women are gold diggers? Are all Erin’s in the (insert random job) profession or are some in that random profession? All romance novels are rape fantasy vs some romance novels are rape fantasy?

            What I said was wrong, actually, everyone has a right to comment on porn but I don’t think anyone has a right to generalize about it stating what all porn is, especially after being told differently by not just one but many other porn viewers. Stating a fact that ALL porn is of young women and perfect bodies is actually wrong.

            “I don’t deny that granny porn exists. I deny that because granny porn exists”
            When you say “in porn it’s all about young women with perfect bodies” then YES you do deny it exists.

            “Does that help clear up something for you? ”
            Yes, thank-you.

            “By the way, I do think love is superior to lust.”
            That’s fine for your opinion, I actually agree funnily enough but question is, do you think it should be superior for everyone?

            “I know you believe this to be a positive. I don’t. ”
            I see this in a positive way only because it allows me to easily search for the women I am most attracted to at that time (it varies day to day, mood, etc). I’d be all for categories for men to be involved too, but I don’t see it as women being reduced to the size of their breasts, etc but simply a way to search for what we like. Are you attracted to every single body type out there? Do you find 80 year olds as attractive as people your age? Categories exist because quite frankly I don’t want to see guy on guy porn, I want to see women closer to my age vs grannies, redheads because on the day I might be attracted to redheads. It’s not negative in my mind to be attracted to certain body types, personality styles, etc. If you could search for potential dates by personality style, would you want the mix of all bag or would you be unchecking the jerk, criminal, cheater categories?

            I don’t find all women universally attractive, I’ve never met a single person who is sexually attracted to every other person, categories allow people to find actors and actresses that they want to see the most, avoid seeing undesirable stuff (for me I don’t want to see any urine or feces porn, most BDSM does nothing for me), and yes it allows them to find the fetish they like. But who’s to say a man is only looking at her as a disembodied body part? I’m looking at humans, not body parts, I realize 100% that vulva is part of a real woman. If you assume I like categories because it allows me to fulfill a desire to see a disembodied body part then quite frankly I am disturbed by your mind. Because what you said actually applies to me because I look at porn based on categories, and it’s extremely offensive.

            • Generalizations enable us to talk about a subject on a larger scale. I will not stop talking about porn in generalizations because I believe it to be a useful tool in discussion.

              Many times in this discussion, MANY, I have said “ A lot of porn/much porn/most porn displays young women”, and you target me because of a comment I made about how in porn it’s all about young women with perfect bodies? Well it IS MOST of the time. You ignore all the times I’ve said that because I made a comment about how all porn is mostly about women with young bodies? You even agreed that was the case.

              How in the world are women suppose to feel good about that? Because 2% of the porn industry involves “granny porn”? I guess all us ladies should just be thankful and worshipping our boyfriends and husbands that they only lust about doing their babysitters or a cheerleader. How do you think it makes women feel to see themselves catagorized like cattle for male fantasy? How do you think it makes women feel if most of the industry is compromised of young women? Do you not think that tells women a very distinct message about how men view female worth?

              You can say whatever you want about women based on what you believe in, if you think all women are gold-diggers, you are entitled to express that. But I am sorry, most porn is about a specific kind of woman.

              The reality is that because sub genres exsist, you somehow thing this should make women feel all happy and good. Well it doesn’t. Not for me and not for a lot of women that have to deal with all the message they get driven into them everyday. It would be nice to come into your own home and not have to deal with the messages you see driven at you all day long in the real world. But you can’t do that if you are coming home to a man that enjoys an industry that basically treats your gender like merchandise. He is part of the problem because he is buying into what porn is selling him.

              Archy said: “That’s fine for your opinion, I actually agree funnily enough but question is, do you think it should be superior for everyone?”

              I think love is superior to lust. If other people believe differently, they have the freedom to believe that. Doesn’t mean I can’t and don’t disagree with it and express why I disagree with it.

              Archy: “I see this in a positive way only because it allows me to easily search for the women I am most attracted to at that time (it varies day to day, mood, etc). ”

              What a wonderful buffet of females for you to enjoy.

              This is something else we disagree on. I do not think it is positive or flattering that men can “search” for women online like we are power tools that he wants to use based on his fleeting and shallow momentary desires.

              You want to masturbate to asian women one day, whilte woman another, african women another and whatever else floats your boat, no one told you you can’t. But don’t make it seem like a positive that you are treating women like a pair of underwear you change everyday and their worth is only dependent on what you feel like looking at with your ever changing desires.

              Unfortunetly, this is a case where people will argue that the variety slakes interest when the reality seems like variety only sets a foundation for more variety. It doesn’t seem like men are every happy with what they got so they have to seek out all these other kind of women. And when that gets boring, they need to seek out other women. Women are only as good as whatever his fleeting shallow desire is at that moment. That’s a lot of nice power for men but doesn’t feel so good as a woman. I would never want to be with a guy that needed to use and see so many different varities of women and expect me to feel safe and comfortable within our relationship.

              Archy: “I’d be all for categories for men to be involved too…”

              The reason men aren’t categorized like women in porn is because porn is heavily dominated for male pleasure. And despite whatever female centric porn is out there it will never reach the epidemic proportions it has with women. Women will forever be put in tiny little boxes based on whatever selfish and fleeting desire a man has that day. How nice for him.

              Archy: “…but I don’t see it as women being reduced to the size of their breasts, etc but simply a way to search for what we like. ”

              After all, it’s all about what men like. What men want. What men desire. In that moment. Because we all know how unstable and shifting and changing male desire is. One day you can look at big breasts, the next small ones..it’s all about you and what you want. This is ultimately what matters. This isn’t a celebration of womanhood, this is a over indulgent buffet of food that a man can gorge himself on until he’s “full” until he needs his next fill.

              Archy: “Are you attracted to every single body type out there? Do you find 80 year olds as attractive as people your age?”

              80 year olds would be extreme but I have been attracted to a wide variety of men and body types, yes.

              Archy: “Categories exist because quite frankly I don’t want to see guy on guy porn, I want to see women closer to my age vs grannies, redheads because on the day I might be attracted to redheads. It’s not negative in my mind to be attracted to certain body types, personality styles, etc. If you could search for potential dates by personality style, would you want the mix of all bag or would you be unchecking the jerk, criminal, cheater categories?”

              So which women is the jerk in porn Archy, the one with the big breasts or the small ones… I seriously don’t even understand what you just said. I am sorry but I am never going to agree with you that it’s a positive that men can sort through women like replacable garbage.

              Archy: “But who’s to say a man is only looking at her as a disembodied body part? I’m looking at humans, not body parts, I realize 100% that vulva is part of a real woman. If you assume I like categories because it allows me to fulfill a desire to see a disembodied body part then quite frankly I am disturbed by your mind. Because what you said actually applies to me because I look at porn based on categories, and it’s extremely offensive.”

              And I am offended that women are placed into catagories based on their body parts or race for male entertainment.
              I am offended about the amount of porn that calls women four letter names.
              I am offended about the amount of porn that reflects young women.
              I am offended by an industry that gets off on treating women like nothing but meat.
              I am offended when I see men defend porn and it’s industry and don’t even try to understand real women.
              I am offended when it’s fun and pleasurable for men to do everything from choking a woman to humilating her.
              I am offended that porn represents women the way it does.
              I am offended that someone would try to attempt to make porn seem like this great big positive for womanhood.

              And I am offended that someone who enjoys and industry that does nothing but treat women liek disembodied body parts, actually has the nerve to tell me I’m the messed up one.

              • Part 1: “Generalizations enable us to talk about a subject on a larger scale. I will not stop talking about porn in generalizations because I believe it to be a useful tool in discussion. ”

                Generalizations are often harmful, make them about men or women and it’s sexism, make it about race and it’s racist. Make them about porn and it’s factually wrong, how does that help the discussion? All porn is this, all porn is that, how does that allow for the fact there is porn that doesn’t meet that definition?

                “Many times in this discussion, MANY, I have said “ A lot of porn/much porn/most porn displays young women”, and you target me because of a comment I made about how in porn it’s all about young women with perfect bodies? Well it IS MOST of the time. You ignore all the times I’ve said that because I made a comment about how all porn is mostly about women with young bodies? You even agreed that was the case. ”

                I’m glad you’re focusing n not generalizing so carelessly with that. It actually allows the discussion to continue without being so far out there. I haven’t ignored the times you aren’t generalizing, and if I haven’t said it I THANK you for trying to reduce it. I don’t believe it helps to have comments saying ALL of X is X, I constantly see people disregard those who make such comments and it’s sad because there is often a good point hidden behind it. You do make a good point that much of the pro porn industry portrays young women, but if you say ALL of it does then so many people will dismiss your entire argument as having no idea.

                “How in the world are women suppose to feel good about that? Because 2% of the porn industry involves “granny porn”? I guess all us ladies should just be thankful and worshipping our boyfriends and husbands that they only lust about doing their babysitters or a cheerleader. How do you think it makes women feel to see themselves catagorized like cattle for male fantasy? How do you think it makes women feel if most of the industry is compromised of young women? Do you not think that tells women a very distinct message about how men view female worth?”

                How should you feel? However you want, it’s your feelings. I’d hope you see it from his side, and he see’s it from your side. Believe it or not I am trying my best to understand your side and I do see how it can be upsetting. Not everyone is going to like it or agree with it, and I’m sorry you think I am just seeing women as a buffet.

                If you were on a dating site, and they had a personality selector, would you select nice guy or jerk? Would you like categories of men ever? I naturally am only attracted to certain women, believe me I’ve tried to change that but quite frankly it’s pretty damn normal and I really don’t see it as being negative. Categories save me time, it’s simple as that, instead of selecting a video from a massive random list I use categories to find what I want. EVERYONE uses selection, did you look at and were open to dating every single man and woman you ever met or were you selective? What you see as categorizing people as cattle, I see as something called attraction, and I don’t have that for everyone. I don’t wanna see piss porn, I don’t wanna see bdsm, I don’t wanna see man on man porn, I don’t wanna see obese porn or anorexia porn, I don’t wanna see violent porn, so I use categories n avoid it.

                “The reality is that because sub genres exsist, yo ~snip~”
                And what of the amateur porn, created by people at home with no industry involvement? What if your partner looks at that? Do you feel the same? I don’t think women should feel all happy n good beacause of subgenres, I HOPE some women will feel better knowing that there is a wider variety of women that are attractive than just the young women. Does that not make you feel even the tiniest bit better? Or would you rather porn to ONLY show one body type n age?

                “This is something else we disagree on. I do not think it is positive or flattering that men can “search” for women online like we are power tools that he wants to use based on his fleeting and shallow momentary desires. ”
                “Shallow momentary desires” “Power tools”, quite frankly these are things I don’t think of and never ever thought of a woman as a tool. I search for women I find attractive, I do it online, I do it offline, if I am horny and would like visual stimulation then I’m not going to look at something which isn’t stimulating.

                “But don’t make it seem like a positive that you are treating women like a pair of underwear you change everyday and their worth is only dependent on what you feel like looking at with your ever changing desires.”
                Quite often it’s because they look similar to people I know offline if you must know, but I suck at visualizing their body so I use porn to fantasize that I am with the person I have a crush on. And funnily enough the most common thing I look for is their smile n eyes. Being that it’s porn I can’t look for personalities so I fill in the personalities in my head if the video doesn’t show their personality.

                “It doesn’t seem like men are every happy with what they got so they have to seek out all these other kind of women. And when that gets boring, they need to seek out other women.”
                I am single atm, but when I have a major crush or feel in love the porn becomes very unsatisfying, the only thing close to it would be if the porn is of the person I like (sexting) or if the actress looks so similar that I mentally only see my crush/love. Porn is just something I use whilst single, when in love or dating I’m into the person I’m dating. Any feeling of variety I have only happens when I am not in love and single.

          • “The reason men aren’t categorized like women in porn is because porn is heavily dominated for male pleasure. And despite whatever female centric porn is out there it will never reach the epidemic proportions it has with women. Women will forever be put in tiny little boxes based on whatever selfish and fleeting desire a man has that day. How nice for him. ”

            Or maybe men are just simply far more visually turned on and prefer porn whereas females prefer other methods for fantasy, so far it seems that way. There are some categories for men but they are rarer.

            “After all, it’s all about what men like. What men want. What men desire. *snip*”
            Don’t confuse one man for all men. What I like varies to what others like. Would it be better if I only looked at one category, one type of person? Yes it’s about my desires because I am using a form of entertainment n fantasy to fulfill some part of my desires, that is why we look at movies, play games, read books, etc. But why are you ONLY talking n thinking of men n their desires? I’ve seen stats that 1 in 3 visitors to porn websites are WOMEN, what do you say to that? A lot of women consume porn, not as much as men but still significant in number.

            “80 year olds would be extreme but I have been attracted to a wide variety of men and body types, yes. ”

            If you looked at porn, would you prefer randomness or categories? Would you mentally skip over the 80 year olds or would you uncheck the granny porn category?

            “So which women is the jerk in porn Archy, the one with the big breasts or the small ones… I seriously don’t even understand what you just said. I am sorry but I am never going to agree with you that it’s a positive that men can sort through women like replacable garbage. ”

            I’m saying people aren’t attracted to everyone, why is it worse to uncheck boxes for bodytypes vs personalities? Are we meant to be attracted to every body type? Do you find jerks as attractive as nice guys? Do you find the super obese as attractive as average guys?

            “I am offended about the amount of porn that calls women four letter names.” – “I hate this about porn and hope it changes. I’d rather see women described as beautiful, sweet, whatever vs degrading names.
            “I am offended about the amount of porn that reflects young women.” – So am I, hence why I look at amateur content the most because it has a larger variety of people (all attributes)
            “I am offended by an industry that gets off on treating women like nothing but meat.” – I don’t blame you, hence why I dislike most of the pro industry and don’t support it. I hope to see more protections put in place to ensure safety, respect, etc.
            “I am offended when I see men defend porn and it’s industry and don’t even try to understand real women.” – Me too, believe it or not I am trying to understand real women and there are women who are completely fine with the existence of porn and even consume it. I listen to both them and women like yourself.
            “I am offended when it’s fun and pleasurable for men to do everything from choking a woman to humilating her.” – Says who? Some men n women may like this but I sure don’t, I doubt the majority of men would think it’s fun or pleasurable.
            “I am offended that porn represents women the way it does.” – I am offended by the way some porn represents women, other porn I think is fine. Most of the stuff I watch is solo (webcams by the models themselves who set the rules on what they do) or amateur couples which simply shows the women as a woman having sex with her partner. Degrading videos I turn off because it’s disgusting and annoys me.
            “I am offended that someone would try to attempt to make porn seem like this great big positive for womanhood.” – I am offended that you really don’t listen to what I say. I say SOME PORN CAN BE a positive for women. Porn is never going to go away and quite a lot of women have realized this and taken more control over it, there is a quite a lot of porn that is produced by women and men that respects them.

            “And I am offended that someone who enjoys and industry that does nothing but treat women liek disembodied body parts, actually has the nerve to tell me I’m the messed up one.”
            Well to my understanding you were saying I look at women as dismembered body parts, I found that offensive and disturbing. You may not realize it but you can look at porn without actually supporting the entire industry. You can support some parts of the industry whilst hating the other. You can avoid the entire pro industry even. Would you assume a couple who makes their own porn video is supporting that whole industry?

            I feel you only see porn as the pro industry and you are ignoring the rest. The majority of stuff I watch has nothing to do with the pro industry, the closest would be the webcam models but the site I watch puts a lot of power in the models hands, pays a large percentage of the profits to them (the site needs some money to run as the bandwidth alone would cost big $$$). I enjoy seeing men and women naked, having sex or doing sexual activities in safe, consenting manner, if that makes me a demon in your eyes then so be it. If you feel the entire industry treats women like disembodied body parts then that’s your issue, I feel sorry you feel that way, I can understand why you feel that way but I don’t agree that is how most men view women (at the very least not how I view them) nor do I agree that the industry does nothing but that.

            What offends me the most are people who assume the worst in men who look at porn, who talk about men looking at women as cattle vs the reality that most of us men look at women as WOMEN. I look at porn, I don’t see tits, I see women, men, engaging in sexual activity. I look at their bodies, I fantasize about them, I wonder what they are really like in person to talk to, I wonder what they do for fun, I wonder about a few things. I take pleasure in it but I still respect them and I am appreciative that they do what they do, I hope they do it safely and fully consenting, I don’t think of them as 4 letter words but as real people who I happen to think are sexy. Quite frankly I feel many women assume most men treat women far worse in their minds/fantasies, than they really do. I support the existence of porn, I realize a lot of it is bad and I do not support BAD porn, that’s the difference. I only support GOOD porn and want the rest to disappear, I see no valid reason to destroy the entire medium of porn because there is bad content. I 100% believe it’ll never go away and that certain videos, books, pictures, etc are 100% healthy n good whilst others are not.

            I respect your feelings on the subject, I don’t mind you feel that way, but I find it sad that some will think of me as a beast because I like porn. This is going nowhere, you may not like porn at all but I’ll continue to consume it until I find myself a partner, porn isn’t going anywhere and whilst I don’t mind non-generalized discussion of the negatives of the industry (which I agree with mostly) I truly feel the only option that will help is to advocate for better representation, diversity, treatment of male n female models, etc as it’s always going to be around. I truly do hope the industry is listening to women like you and is making changes to be better.

  26. The wee one says:

    I have been going out with my boyfriend for 2 years now, I have quite a high sex drive and not to be big headed or anything but I’m rather hot and have a very nice body! I have told my boyfriend that I am happy to try new things just say the word, but he always results to porn, the minute I leave him he is straight on it! Half the time he rejects me when I come on to him and I always wonder if that’s cos he has sacked off to porn, I have even asked if he wanted to watch porn and he agrees but will never put on something he would watch by himself, I have been so understanding and open about the whole situation but it just frustrates me when I’m good looking and happy to give him whatever he wants! But he still does porn can anyone give me any reason or answer as to why he does this?

    • A few comments up I replied to Stacy on possible reasons why, they may apply to your case as well. In the end the only one who can answer it is him though. Have you asked him about it?

  27. Thank you all for the comments, It is always nice to get other people’s opinions. He is in the military so there are days where he is tired. I have came to realize that no matter what I tell him he is still going to do it. I would not leave him unless he cheated on me with someone else, I love him way too much and we do have kids. I am curious as to how many people watch porn with their spouses or boyfriend/girlfriend? I was thinking that maybe it would make me feel a little bit better if we watched it together at times instead of him always by himself.

    • Ask him, I wouldn’t mind a woman watching it with me and playing with me. Just make sure you don’t try to guess what he is turned on at, that is something I’m seeing women do in many of these comments and their insecurities are tearing them apart from within based off guesses of what these men want. Only way to know what he likes or wants is to ask him, or develop a 6th sense.

      Yeah you can be too tired for sex but still enough energy to masturbate (1 main muscle group/arm used vs your entire body). Though if you feel up to it you may be able to say he can lie back on those days and you do most of the work if you want, he could be just looking at the porn because he doesn’t want to be selfish n make you do all the work.

    • Stacy, in the past, i had taken advice of others to watch a video with him. It left me feeling even more disconnected from my partner and it wasn’t much fun seeing him get turned on by other woman while he expected me to the be the living warm body to finish the job. He thought it was really hot and afterwards, I was disappointed in him and myself and felt even less connected to him then before.

      Rarely do I think the reason men view porn is because they are trying to be selfless to their partners. Most men look at porn due to their own personal (and yes selfish) desires.

  28. ok so my husband and I have been married for 4 years, we are 25 yr old and have two small children. I recently found him masturbating to porn. Since this situation I have been trying to understand the subject of porn and why my husband would want to watch it. I know that I do not have big boobs and my body is not perfect, I have stretch marks and I am self consicous of them. But im not fat and I workout 5 days a week so In my honest opinion i dont look bad other than the stretch marks. I wear makeup and fix my hair literally everyday, there might be a few occasions that I dont. I wear sexy clothes around house and buy lingerie for night. We have sex often, about once a day. Recently i have found myself wanting it more and he turns me down. When this happens i cant help but let my mind wander if maybe that day he watched porn or do i not turn him on? I even randomly send him a nude picture of myself when he is at work just because. So i do not understand when at times he wants to watch this and its when I am home and more than happy to please him. Even if im not in the mood i will still pleasure him, i see that as being a part of a marriage. In my opinion every woman and man should be able to and willing to pleasure their spouse when needed whether you are in the mood or not.
    ok so, i may just be looking way too far into the situation but I am trying to understand so that I can stop thinking about this. No matter what happens I always want my husband to think about me when we are having sex and i want to be able to turn him on. When we discuss this he always says that I do but I cant help to wonder if he is telling the truth.
    Majority of the porn that he watches is girl on girl, which sucks because i cant role play this, I would never nor does he want me to do this. I have mentioned the idea that he could video while i masturbated but he didnt really say much. I know it wont be the same but hey im trying my hardest here. THen the subjct of him and I watching porn together came up. Im nt sure how that would work out but I would love to hear other thoughts on the subject as well?
    I dont deny that when I am watching a movie or my favorite tv series True Blood I get aroused by the sex scenes. I dont masturbate while watching it by no means but it does turn me on. Is this similiar to porn? I need help to further understand the subject of porn and why my husband feels the need to watch it. Maybe im in the wrong, that is why I am on here. please help

    • No you aren’t in the wrong, there isn’t a right or wrong in this situation, it depends upon the couple.

      “I dont deny that when I am watching a movie or my favorite tv series True Blood I get aroused by the sex scenes. I dont masturbate while watching it by no means but it does turn me on. Is this similiar to porn? I need help to further understand the subject of porn and why my husband feels the need to watch it. ”

      Yes it is similar. I’ll give you the reason I look at porn if that will help. I am currently single, and I absolutely love the female body, seeing sex, nude females I find attractive, sexual acts turns me on and makes it far easier to masturbate to. Without it I rely on my imagination and I have troubling picturing the detail of the vulva for instance (one of the most beautiful things in the world I might add, ladies, love your vulvas!). So the porn makes masturbation even better I find.

      Girl on girl could just be a fantasy and it can LOOK nice, do you know how some women may fantasize about sex with vampires or rape but don’t actually want to do that? Could be that he is turned on seeing 2 girls in the porn doing their thing, but in reality it becomes a major drama to want a 3some with you and another girl and he probably knows that. I’ve fantasized about orgies but I doubt I’d ever be in one.

      DON’T beat yourself up over your looks, I am sure you look very beautiful. Only he knows why he looks at porn and it doesn’t have to be that you aren’t fulfilling his desires, doesn’t have to mean you aren’t beautiful to him, etc.

      Possible reasons:
      Does he have trouble getting it up?
      Does he have performance anxiety?
      Is he depressed?
      Is he withdrawing from you in other ways and wanting to be alone a lot?

      Does he KNOW you are willing to please him whenever, wherever? He could be trying to use porn as an inbetween method saving you from having to do it when he feels you aren’t in the mood. I’ve heard this commonly from guys that they do it at times when their partner is asleep or tired, so they don’t bother them.

      Is he stressed?
      Is he low on energy and stamina? I know you workout a lot so I am guessing you have quite a lot of energy but can he match it? Sometimes when I am super tired I think I’d turn down sex from exhaustion, but still have enough energy to jerk off quickly before bed. I probably wouldn’t want to bother my partner as I feel I wouldn’t be able to meet HER needs.

      The only way to know is ask him why, let him know calmly that you feel left out, feel like you aren’t pretty enough, etc. Do this when he is calm though and try avoid a fight, it needs to be discussed very calmly as it’s a delicate area and can easily trigger defensiveness. I hope he will communicate openly with you, the reason could have nothing to do with you, or your looks, or ability to please him, could be just simply that he loves to see girl on girl as much as you love to see true blood. Difference being he masturbates. If you feel that urge btw, go for it, no shame in it. Everyone should be happy and destress in whatever way they want. Maybe have sex whilst watching true blood or the porn. Porn, and true blood, books like 50 shades of grey can be very tempting. The sex drive is an amazingly powerful thing.

      Btw, not all men like big breasts, small petite fit bodies, and all the other stereotypes so don’t beat yourself up on how your body looks. Many of us don’t care about stretch marks, etc. I’m sure he finds you extremely attractive and I guarantee there are plenty of other men and even some women who’d find you very attractive. There’s no one size fits all look for beauty, there is quite a lot of randomness in attraction so try not to let it beat you down.

      These are mainly just guesses btw, nothing set in stone as I don’t know him. Hope that helps and I really hope you both communicate and you get to find out why he likes it.

    • Seriously, sounds like you are a fabulous wife. The sort many men fantasize about. Do yourself a favor and take your husband at his word. The generalization police will jump on me for saying it, but men and women are generally different in their attitudes toward porn.

      Don’t freak out about it. Don’t badger him about it. Don’t expect him to stop. It’s not that the grass on the other side is greener, it’s just different grass and different is what many guys need. As far as grass goes, imaginary grass carries fewer consequences and STDs.

      • Wow, you do realize that telling a woman that men just need something different so he can distance himself from what she is isn’t really any better then if she was directly told that porn is infact better then her. It might as well be the same thing.

        Stacy, I think most men look at porn, get aroused and masturbate. I don’t think they are just watching it for the story line or just sitting there with a hard-on without touching themselves. I think they want to see other women naked because they aren’t happy enough with just their woman. They want the variety. They want to use porn in conjecture with their real life because they simply aren’t satisfied enough with just their real life partner. It’s not that a real woman is better then porn. It’s simply that she is different. As Wow said. That’s the hard truth in my opinion that most guys don’t want to admit to.

        I can’t say why your husband specifically feels the need to watch it. But I think men have had their sexuality hijacked a bit by porn. And the mixture of porn and technology has really changed how men behave toward sexuality and this medium.

        I do think you need to talk to him. He really isn’t sexually satisfying you. He turns you down. This isn’t cool.

        And I am with you. Even when I am not in the mood and when I’ve had boyfriends, I engaged in sexy time because he wanted to and I think part of being a good girlfriend is giving of yourself even if you don’t always feel like it. Sometimes that sex and sometimes that’s giving a listening ear when he wants to talk even if you don’t feel like it or other stuff. which is why I think it’s important for a boyfriend to do the same and if he feels like masturbating to porn, perhaps forgoing it for his own woman. It should be a two way street. Ultimately though, you need to talk to him. This appears to be a growing problem with men in relationships using more porn to supplement themselves while their female partners aren’t satisfied.

        • ” I think they want to see other women naked because they aren’t happy enough with just their woman. They want the variety. They want to use porn in conjecture with their real life because they simply aren’t satisfied enough with just their real life partner. It’s not that a real woman is better then porn. It’s simply that she is different. As Wow said. That’s the hard truth in my opinion that most guys don’t want to admit to.”

          I think you’re quite right about this. Where we differ, perhaps: I don’t think people should pretend to be satisfied for the sake of their partner’s ego. Not for my ego, not for hers.

          • I don’t think people should be satisfied buying into what porn sells them is sex and interaction between people. That’s what I think is sad. That porn fulfills something in people to begin with.

            • Depends on the type of porn. Porn made by a real couple would be far better for reality than made by a production company usually. Seeing what people actually do, how they interact, etc. Although generally it doesn’t show the hours/days/months/years of interacting before the act of sex:P

              • No, it doesn’t matter to me what type of porn it is. It doesn’t matter if someone drinks wine coolers to get drunk or does shots. If drinking fulfills something in you to begin with, something is missing.

                • Sorry I meant that to be to the “I don’t think people should be satisfied buying into what porn sells them is sex and interaction between people.” part only. As in I watched a few videos recently of a couple having sex, went from oral on each other to intercourse, they both had an orgasm, both recieved pleasure, it was very intimate, looked very loving, fun, a lot of positivity. What I took from that was a good image of sex and interaction between people, since the video was good.

                  Did it fulfill me? Not sure, helped out with reducing my stress, I was quite turned on by the act, I was impressed to see both partners pleasuring each other and everyone benefiting, my mood was greatly elevated although most of that was from masturbation vs the porn itself.

                  But why do you find it sad? What is sad about a person watching sex? It’s no more sad than a person watching romance in a movie, reading romance novels. There are many forms of entertainment people use to gain some form of pleasure from, fulfilling desires like rid yourself of boredom, destress, masturbate, have sex whilst watching others have sex, watching romance movies for that loveydovey feeling, watching dramas for the intrigue, horror for suspense n fear, action for that raw aggression. That’s not sad, that’s normal human behaviour. We desire, we seek, we fulfill it.

                  Porn can be satisfying to a particular desire, nothing sad about that. But I doubt it fulfills any large desires or needs such as wanting to find a partner or wanting sex.

    • Wow, if he were my boyfriend, I’d leave him. You have two young children though, so it’s not an option. It’s not that he ocassionally watches porn (who doesn’t)–it’s that doesn’t give a shit about sexually satisfying you and doesn’t notice that you’re trying your best for him. Maybe you could try online chatting with some men to get your fix until he’s willing to work on the problem. Unless you’re bisexual, it’s more difficult for women to supplement the sex they need (not everyone wants to read an entire book every day to get off, some of us are also visual, and some of us also crave variety). Most porn and strip clubs aren’t really made for us. Online chatting and sexting is a good alternative and fits a woman’s sexuality better (as long as you keep it random and there are NO feelings involved). This allows you to feel sexy (something which women crave and turns them on), adds a little realistic conversation, and lets you see more than just a disembodied penis or generic looking man.

      You could also try masturbating to ‘True Blood’ and see if that works. Unfortunately, it’s only one show.

      As for wanting him to only think about you, I think that’s a tall order. I’m a woman and I haven’t always thought of my man during sex or while masturbating. That doesn’t mean that he isn’t good or that I don’t find him to be the sexiest and most attractive man in the world at that time–but my mind does wander. So do my eyes. I want to be the number one, most beautiful, sexiest woman in my man’s eyes–but I understand and accept that he will find other women attractive and sexual. As long as it’s not more than me, it’s fine.

      It’s a little odd that he would NOT want to see you with another woman, yet is fixated with it. Sounds like it’s either performance anxiety (the actual situation is often more awkward than it is in a fantasy) or jealousy (most of the men I’ve been with have gotten insanely jealous when I even kissed or danced provocatively with another woman). Then again, maybe he just doesn’t like looking at penises in porn. It could also be that he’s insecure about his own penis and doesn’t want to see porn ones. Maybe it’s a Madonna/Whore thing. The sluts in porn can do these things to each other, but it’s weird when my wife and the mother of my children does.

      Good luck to you and your husband. I hope you guys can work it out.

  29. “So, you’re saying that a woman’s worth is defined by my lust?”

    Porn argument aside, yes, it’s important in the context of a relationship. What woman wants to be with a man who doesn’t find her attractive or desire her? If there were ever a dealbreaker, it’s this. Maybe that’s why ‘corset-ripping’ type stuff is so popular with women. It’s an expression of the craving to be completely irresistable to a man; of your body being so sexual and desirable to him that he can barely contain himself. Yes, other things than sex are important in a relationship, but it’s one of the biggies. Why stay with, get with, or stay sexually loyal to a man who doesn’t find you attractive or can’t be bothered to try and make you feel beautiful in a society that goes out of its way to tell you that you’re not (this goes for women too)?

    • some guy says:

      That’s an interesting point. I completely agree that attraction and desire are important. And certainly that it cuts both ways, being important to both men and women. In fact I’d say it’s so important, and this is in relation to the porn thing, that maybe this desire/craving issue is an even bigger aspect of the fantasy than the younger/hotter woman thing.

      Speaking for myself, the enthusiasm–even if feigned–of the actresses is one of the most arousing parts of it. I’d much rather watch a slightly older/pudgier or whatever woman acting really enthusiastic than watching some perfect young thing just lay there like a dead fish. But if I’m going to fantasize about one aspect, why not both?

      At home, I pay attention when my wife’s naked. She knows I’m watching. First of all, because I say so, and I compliment, and I’ll make overtures. And most of the time, she’ll go along with it. But frankly, never with that kind of enthusiasm or energy. Never with much passion or imagination or creativity. Which is a shame. Fake breasts, if that’s your thing, is a relatively easy feat to accomplish. Augmenting the libido it seems… not so much.

      Maybe you’re right and it’s a deal breaker. That’s something I’m wrestling with.

      • Something that isn’t being said is….a man can be attracted to the stars in porn, and STILL very very attracted to his “older” partner. In most cases porn doesn’t replace the women, if anything it’s a quick play here n there when someone is stressed and not much thought is put into it. It doesn’t mean because she is younger, that she is hotter, doesn’t mean that cuz she is thinner, that she is hotter. There is also that emotional connection that makes our partners even more attractive and porn usually can’t touch that. A man or woman can look at porn, get off, and still wanna tear the clothes off their partner…

        • Some guy says:

          I’ve been baffled by all the discussion about what I think are some pretty commonly held opinions:

          young is hotter than old
          fit is hotter than fat
          enthusiasm is hotter than passivity

          but probably the biggest and most important distinction, not to mention the most relevant in most of our lives:

          flesh is hotter than images. Porn doesn’t mean I want my partner any less.

          Obviously, these are generalizations. Certainly some people will disagree. Everyone is free to like what they like. But I don’t get why men are given a hard time for liking what they do and wanting to look at it.

          • It most likely won’t “enthusize/excite” or motivate a woman to be more of exciting partner if you are forever seeking out visuals of younger, hotter, thinner, more enthusaistic male dominated fantasy images.

            Every day I hear of another woman who doesn’t know what to do. Her partner has lost interest in her. He spends his time looking at porn. This has become an increased problem with the boom and ease of internet porn.

            I think men like to believe they are fully in control of their porn use and sexuality. I think the much truer reality is that a lot of men are not incontrol of themselves concerning these issues then they like to think. Why do I think that/ I think in general, porn usage has increased because of the internet. This has nothing to do with biology and what is natural as it does accessibility.

            Finally, look at all the porn you want of hotter, younger women compared with your own partner. This will not motiviate your partner, in most cases, to want to develop more exciting sex with you. Whether you like it or not, men send messages to women through their porn use. It is a matter of men’s actions that matter. And it is no comfort that a woman’s partner only finds her more attractive through the emotional connection while all other women have to do is exsist in a visual sense to excite his senses.

            Perhaps porn doesn’t mean you want your partner any less. However, perhaps his deminishes her own desire for you. I know that when I found out my former parners were looking at porn, I was less interested and movtivated to engage in sex with them. I felt less open to them and less vulnerable and didn’t feel like putting the effort in. So maybe porn doesn’t cause you to not desire your partner. But perhaps it causes her to desire you less.

            Finally, there have been studies done that discussed about how after directly awtching porn, a man would become more critical about his own woman’s own body and perfomance. This is not some unicorn in the sky. There is real data that talks about the affect porn has on men and how they think of their own partners.

            Men are given a hard time for liking what they like because often what men seem to like in fantasy is far removed from being healthy ideals regarding women and sexuality in general. Since it’s all heavily built on male fantasy, it has little to do with making sex a mutual experience for both men and women. ANd frankly, I am sick of hearing how easily men can toggle between other women and their own and how women are to just accept this because it’s easy for men to treat women like boxes of candy to be gobbled up for his pleasure.

            • You keep saying about the messages women get from men in their porn habits, but isn’t this only true for some women? Why are some women completely fine with their partners porn habits, and why DON’T they receive these messages?

              Part of the problem is how women themselves are interpreting their partners “messages”, these are subjective to every person and every person (woman in this case) can take a different meaning from what their partner watches. Some will see their partner look at younger women and think their partner likes to see younger women AND the partner, be totally fine at switching between, and then others will assume it means he only wants to look at younger women and his partner is automatically less attractive.

              If your partner still has sex with you, quite enthusiastically then it most likely means he still finds you very attractive. But all these assertions on the messages you get from men and what they look at also has some part to do with your own insecurities/self-esteem and this needs to be taken into account.

              The wording you use, “I am sick of hearing how easily men can toggle between other women and their own and how women are to just accept this because it’s easy for men to treat women like boxes of candy to be gobbled up for his pleasure.” To me that indicates you see male sexuality as take take take, have their cake n eat it too, but isn’t that true for some women? But here you are saying women are taking these messages from men’s viewing of porn, and stating it as fact, WHICH women are you talking about?

              “Whether you like it or not, men send messages to women through their porn use.”
              Well, whether you like it or not you are sending a clear message to your partners in objecting to their use or pornography, you’re sending an extremely clear signal that you are insecure because thye are looking at “younger, hotter” women but how do you know that HE thinks they are hotter? Do you want him to only look at you and never anyone else? If so have you provided him with pornographic material of yourself/ves so he may look at it to masturbate to? These are options which can help avoid these issues.

              I understand you have insecurities and issues with porn, I truly do, but you need to be careful that it’s not born from other insecurities (not saying that it is btw!). Do you object to him looking at other women? Reason I ask is because I want to know why you have a major problem with it whilst SOME other women don’t? And again neither is the right or wrong way to be, there’s no set rule on how to be and how to act even respectfully. A person looking at porn can still be someone I view as respecting their partner 100%, whilst others might think they have no respect, similar to how I respect sex workers 100% yet others view them as lesser beings.

              “It is a matter of men’s actions that matter. And it is no comfort that a woman’s partner only finds her more attractive through the emotional connection while all other women have to do is exsist in a visual sense to excite his senses. ”
              Yet time n time again these men go back to their partners, love them, care for them, sacrifice for them, do all the normal things people in love do. That second bit is the most rediculous thing I have read recently, by the sound of it you’re annoyed by the fact men can be visually turned on by people who are not their partner? I’m sorry but no one has the right to even EXPECT their partner is never turned on by someone else, wanting to control their sex drive is a massive control-freak issue so I really hope I’ve misread what you’re saying.

              Ladies, gentlemen, yes, you have to accept the fact your partner will see other people who may be more physically attractive than you, they may even be more attractive with their personality, your partner may think about doing all kinds of things with other people, and it’s completely out of your control. It’s a normal part of humans to lust after others, it’s temptation, it’s been battled over since the dawn of time but it’s up to the couple to define the boundaries and work out what is acceptable and what isn’t. If a woman cannot handle her partner even looking at other women then she may try ask him to remain blind or not do it consciously, but she has no right to expect him not to look. If he doesn’t meet your standards then find someone who does, if it’s a dealbreaker then so be it, but it’s up to him whether he should change his behaviour or not. AND whichever choice he makes is not wrong or right, it just is, none of us have the moral highground, I can’t tell others to do X, I can only suggest they do it and it might help. But at the end of the day it’s their choice, it’s the couples choice, if they want to look at porn then so be it, if they want to read 50 shades of grey and the whole harlequinn mills n boon collection, so be it, but if I don’t want them to then they CAN change for me or I can get over it, or leave.

              One of the most common things I hear about men and why they like porn is because the women in them ARE enthusiastic, enjoy it, love it, it makes sex far more pleasing. Often I hear of men who have partners that are starfish, unenthusiastic, let their insecurities harm the experience (covering up, doing it in the dark because they feel too fat, too this, too that), they have a clear lack of confidence in their body yet porn stars look confident as hell, they take charge, they switch positions at their will, they get on top n ride like crazy if they want. So are these porn stars hotter than our own partners? Well when I am in love with a woman, NO ONE is hotter than her, others might think there are hotter, thinner, younger, better bodies but I don’t because I have this huge amount of love n lust for her that no one, not even a porn star could touch. Don’t ask me how that happens, it’s a mystery, maybe it’s a chemical bonding mixed with psychological bonding, who knows. But you can have a partner who others might think is a 5 or 6, and to the guy that loves her she is a 10, he may look at pornstars that others think are 10’s but his love will probably be hotter no matter what.

              Believe it if you will but I’m pointing out a big problem in your comparing yourself to the people in porn he watchs, unless you are inside his mind you cannot honestly say the younger, thinner, whatever actresses are hotter than you TO HIM. It’s impossible, they may be hotter than you in YOUR mind, but it probably is different in his mind, EVEN if he likes to look at them in videos it doesn’t mean they are hotter than you. This is something some women really need to get into their head, what “men” look at isn’t necccessarily who they want to date, what they desire in a REAL woman. Fantasy is a strange beast, there are no guarantees that given the chance these men who want to sleep with the actress they see in the porno, hell I have masturbated to women I wouldn’t sleep with in real life nor would I date them. I can simply be turned on by the act, or the position, small random things that for some reason turn me on.

              Sometimes I think it’s some women who are placing this enormous pressure on thesemlves with beauty, they see a guy look at an image and magically think they know what that guy likes without even asking him, mindreading, and then feeling insecure over it. Would you believe your partner if he said he found you more beautiful than the women in the porn? I think women’s insecurity in this case has more of a part to play than many are willing to admit, I’ve had women assume I would like X when I hate X, had them assume I like looking at bimbos with fake breasts (turns me off), had them assume that I thought THEY were ugly because THEY think themselves as ugly and wouldn’t beleive me no matter what I said.

              Now I’m not dismissing your issues, I’m adding MY issues in about what I see some women doing, and I’m tired of women taking messages from actions that could have nothing to do with the message they get because of their insecurity playing havok with their mind, misreading pretty much every action I do (clearly since not all women read the same thing from me). In all of these cases above I am talking about certain people, or some people, not all of a group because each gender is so diverse in what they like it’s impossible to say ALL or MOST like X. It may be that many like a certain attribute, but there is still a significant amount of people that don’t, just look at the small breasts vs large breasts debate. Wanna know how many women I’ve seen assume men love large breasts and talk about how the media makes them insecure, how porn makes them insecure, assuming we all love big ol titties? Wanna know how many men I’ve seen like small breasts, or more commonly big and small breasts? I’m not sure where they’re getting their info from but they clearly aren’t getting a large sample size, in my quarter century on this Earth the one thing I have learned is everybody likes their own individual things, never seen 2 people very alike. There may be similarities but not everyone is the same. Maybe some women need to keep this in mind the next time they worry about their men looking at porn…I wonder if these women realize the message they are sending to their men?

            • Some guy says:

              Why is the burden here on men? Change your habits because women just can’t deal with the idea that someone, somewhere is more attractive than she is?

              Why is it less reasonable to say, men like to look at women. Most are just looking. Deal with it?

              What would meeting in the middle look like?

              • I wouldn’t dream of telling women to never look at other men, never goto manpower, never read 50 shades of grey yet so often I see some women feel it’s completely justified in telling men to stop looking at that stuff, or laying shame on them in a generalizing and patronizing tone, as if their morals are superior. Reminds me a lot of religious shaming I’ve seen with regard to sexuality…(and no I am not talking about you Erin, but talking about the larger negative views male sexuality gets in the media by some groups)

                • So what is it you’re trying to say Archy when you say, “I wouldn’t dream of telling women to never look at other men…” That your way of doing things is better? What’s the message here?

                  I’m not telling you to do anything. I never told anyone I dated to “stop looking”. I’ve certainly had issues in the past with men concerning this issue and I’ve tried to talk about it with them but ultimately what it seems to come down to is their desire to look/ogle was of greater importance while they accused me of being “insecure”. I was put down for how I felt. I was shamed for it. And while I never told a guy “stop looking”, doesn’t mean I don’t feel discouraged with men regarding this stuff either. I am not going to get into 50 Shades of Grey here except to say that I read the book because it was so highly publized and I frankly thought the book was crap. The characters where flat and one-deminsional. I didn’t find the sex hot despite the very risque material. It all seemed lame and overly contrived. I certainly didn’t find the male lead very attractive either.

                  • “So what is it you’re trying to say Archy when you say, “I wouldn’t dream of telling women to never look at other men…” That your way of doing things is better? What’s the message here?”

                    Read the last line, that entire comment wasn’t to you. I meant other women I’ve seen in blogs, heard in person etc. Completely separate to our debate, sorry if there was confusion. I never said my way was better, that’s the point, there isn’t really a right or wrong way but I think there are just certain ways that some will like, certain ways that others will like and all need to find some way to be tolerated. Hence the “laying shame on them in a generalizing and patronizing tone, as if their morals are superior. ” since no ones morals are superior.

                    • I know it wsn’t for me but I am left with the impression that you said, “you wouldn’t dream of telling a woman never to look at other men…” that somehow that is the better way. Vs women that are upset by their men looking at other women.

                      Also, I would say no one person is superior to another. But some people do have higher morals then others.

                      Frankly men do not have to deal with issues of how they are treated and respresented through female sexual entertainment that women have to deal with concerning male sexual entertainment. I get that some men think books are equal to movies but there are a variety of reasons I would disagree with that.

                    • I think more men are bothered by female romance entertainment more than female sexual entertainment (although the two aren’t always different). I’ve heard quite a lot of men show worry that they couldn’t live up to the standards of romance in material that is dominated by female consumption. So I guess some men could get the message that women have extremely unrealistic expectations of romance and intimacy from that media. I myself just hope the women I date realize that stuff isn’t reflective of reality in some cases, just as I realize porn isn’t reflective of reality in some cases.

                      “Frankly men do not have to deal with issues of how they are treated and respresented through female sexual entertainment that women have to deal with concerning male sexual entertainment. ”
                      Are you trying to say women get it worse, or women get it different to men? Do you mean men don’t have to deal with ANY issues, or don’t have to deal with the SAME issues as women? A lil confused here.

                    • Coloradoan says:

                      i have to agree with Erin, living in Denver, my moral are about a mile higher than those infidels and hedonists living on either coast!

  30. Interesting topic/comments/arguments! I don’t 100% dislike porn, only how I feel knowing that he would rather look at something else and use his hand instead of playing with me every other day or so. I can totally see how I could go from feeling this way to mentally boycotting the entire porn concept due to the jealousy I feel towards these women he would rather look at at the time for whatever reason that I conceive them more attractive (perfect bodies – etc) but I mainly try to focus on what WE do. This is getting harder for me though as my body is changing (kids aren’t nice to your body!) and he continues to do it frequently even though I’ve told him I want it more. I have a very high sex drive and apparently he does too but he’s giving what I want to a tissue half the time and I’m feeling deprived a little. I’ve told him that, but nothing’s changed. We still play about 3-4 times/week but I want more. He however either is gratified via our play times or self gratification at least daily I’d say although it may be a bit less because now he sneaks and even plans it for when I won’t be home. I keep getting more and more frustrated and hurt that he’s seeming to ignore my requests and am about crazy at this point. I just don’t get it? I’m 26 yrs old and I want more and masturbation for me is a rip-off… I don’t care for it much at all compared to the real deal and so it’s something I rarely do unless it’s been awhile and I just give up and want anything I can get.
    –so does anyone have any input on why my husband feels the need to watch porn? I would love any feedback. I’m running out of things to console my self esteem and ego with hah :/
    Excuse any typos please, iPhone auto correct can be a little lame and I can’t proofread my wall of text on here easily

    • Well of course you’d have to ask him in particular for the right answers but it could be…Insecurity, he may feel insecure being with you, maybe he has body image issues? Could be depression, wanting to be alone and retreating. Could be it’s easier for him to jerk off than have sex, has he ever shown problems with performance anxiety? I was on medication one that made it very hard to reach orgasm, it was easier via masturbation but still frustrating so that could be one reason. There are heaps of reasons but the only person that knows is him, you’d have to talk to him about it but do so in a manner that is open and communicative, don’t shame him or he’ll probably close up.

      I hope it works out for you both, it could be a very simple and easy to fix issue so don’t give up hope.

    • I don’t know Steph. I do know that your problem is not unique and I’ve heard of A LOT , more then I think people realize, of women complaining about wanting sex but their partners turning to porn instead over them.

  31. Anonymous says:

    Not ALL men masturbate. I know of two personally who don’t. One is religious, and the other sees no point in it.

    • Hear hear.
      What a stupid, sweeping statement to say all men masturbate, and then to insult the ones who don’t because it doesn’t conform to *their* idea of what a man should do. I haven’t jerked off in 4 years, since I married my wife. She’s half to our whole, and I know it would cut her deeply if I did. So I don’t.

  32. I think people would be happier if they didn’t spend so much time on what they didn’t have and learned to really appreicate on a deep level what they do have. Such as learning to connect more with their partners rather then turning to porn the second their partner isn’t around to self gratify themselves with.

    • But lack of connection to a partner isn’t always the case for turning to porn, there are those with very high sex drives who love their partners dearly but their partner doesn’t share that level of sex drive. They can either go with less, try get more from their partner, or use porn/masturbation to fill in the gaps.

      I think people would be happier if they didn’t put such a huge deal on porn, why is there a problem with self-gratification??

      • I have no doubt that many men love their partners dearly. But I am beginning to understand how women fail men though. We aren’t young enough. Pretty enough. Big breasted enough. Of coures you need to seek out these fantasies through porn. We aren’t really what you want. We may cook your meals and provide a nice warm hole or two but at the end of the day, what it comes down is that a man needs his fantasies. And if he has a teen daughter and he is thinking aboug banging teeangers, aparently this is all well and good too. Do you get how over whelming these messages are to women? Do you know what it feels like to see your male partner seek out everything you aren’t and can’t be? Do you think this makes a woman feel sexy or feel like being more intimate with her man when he is fixated on youth and variety and all the kinds of things men are now interested in that bypass their own partners? I don’t think you care. I don’t think most men care. Which is why several men in this thread talk about how what a man needs is way more important the the messages women are getting from men about their worth and bodies. You care about not only shaming women for not liking porn, but actaully shaming them for being bothered by the messages men indirectly send to women about their interest in women vs what a real woman may be, age and changes to the body and all.

        And what do women do? We have to just accept it. We get older and our bodies change and our men uphold images of teenagers or younger women with better bodies up to what they really want and need.

        • No one has the right to control another person’s fantasies, the core of my message isn’t to say which side is right or wrong, it’s that each individual couple/relationship has to work out it’s own boundaries. I try not to judge people, I try hard not to judge people and accept them for who they are, I try not to care if they are 40 and date 20, why should I care?

          If a 40 year old is looking at porn of a 20 year old whilst dating a 40 year old woman, yeah I can see how that can affect the woman, I’m not saying he is right or wrong in doign that, it’s up to them to work it out.

          Do you think men don’t have insecurities of their own? I’ve seen plenty of women with romance novels of men that their husbands could never be, tales of action n intrigue, perfectly chiseled muscles adorning hte cover image where hte husband looks nothing like them. Do you also think that material is bad too or is it just porn?

          Did you read the comments on this website of men who were left with very little sex, who’s needs weren’t met and pretty much have to masturbate to feel any intimacy? Do you think these men feel loved when their partners don’t even feel like having sex with them that they have to make love with their hand instead just to feel something? I don’t think you care, I’m not sure how many women actually care.

          But what we all need to do is ask whether the messages we take from such mediums is actually correct. Is your partner looking at porn because that actress is more beautiful, or was it just the first thing he found? Is it because she’s 20, or is it because it’s a certain role play? Some of us actually like to think back to our past, a way to relive our youth, I fantasize over missed opportunities in highschool as a way to wonder what it would have been like if I was dating back then. Doesn’t at all mean I want to date someoen young now, but it’s just a way to remember the past in a better way than the highly negative way I remember it. To think of old crushes, n desires.

          I’m not trying to dismiss your experiences, I am ASKING you (and everyone else) to think and see if there was anything you missed, asking you to talk to your partner and find out WHY he wants to look at it.

          I don’t mind if you don’t like porn, I don’t want you to like it if you don’t want to, I don’t want you to feel shame over it. What I object to though is your major generalizations of the entire genre, your comments have a tone that treats most men as watching highly degrading and even violent pornography whilst plenty of comments here prove you wrong. When I say I want you to open your eyes, I mean I want you to notice the people here talkin about the porn they look at, I want you to realize that yes there is bad porn but there is also a lot of good porn that isn’t violent or degrading and that many of us just want to see sex in a form that both the man and woman both benefit, both enjoy, both feel pleasure.

          “You care about not only shaming women for not liking porn, but actaully shaming them for being bothered by the messages men indirectly send to women about their interest in women vs what a real woman may be, age and changes to the body and all. ”
          Why do you say “Real woman” as if the women in porn are not real? I have had female friends who’ve sexted me, they’re real, I care a lot about what they think. Do you care about what men think? You have a very anti-porn stance which takes a portion of the porn which is highly negative and then try to assert it is representative of the genre 9 out of 10 times. I feel as if you are actively trying to shame me and others who look at porn because of your own experiences, as if we do not care about women and do not respect them. But I’m sorry to say but what you think I and other men think and do, and what we really think and do are probably worlds apart.

          Why is it only certain women feel this shame and others are fine with their partners watching porn? Why do only certain women get these messages? Which women’s experience is correct and to be held as a standard? Some women get a negative experience, others get a positive experience, and whilst I do feel for those who have a negative experience with porn, what right do they have to assert porn is negative in a generalized sense when others find it ok? This is why I ask people to focus on which parts are bad, not all is good, and not all is bad. You’re generalizing men based on what exactly? That some like to look at younger women? You’re treating men and women as monoliths, men wanting younger women with better bodies, and the women as old hens that just have to accept it. Don’t you see how absolutely offensive that is to men? It’s pretty much saying I don’t respect my partners and just want younger women with better bodies. How do you know what I want? or what all men want?

          • I don’t think my generalizations are so ‘wrong” that whatever “good porn” (whatever that means) that is out there neutralizes the over whelming amount of material I see that is built on female objectification. Like I said before, if porn isn’t being violent or degrading, it is still objectifying and stereotyping of how women are suppose to look at act sexually more times then not. I’s not fair to say, “on well there is this small segment of stuff over here that’s “good” (again whatever that means) so you can’t talk about the the other stuff!”. I talk about the stuff that seems to be the most abundant in the industry. And if you ask me, within in the industry of porn, most of it, *most*, seems to be about either objectifying women, stereotyping them, belittling them or degrading them or a combination of all those.

            YOU are not the gender most often concept-ionized in porn. Women are. You are not the gender treated like a commodity for women in porn. Women are treated that way in porn for men. You are not the gender that is called names for female sexual masturbation. Women are called names for male sexual masturbation. You are not the gender expected to go to extremes of surgery, painful waxing and anal bleaching. Women are. You are not the gender being put into categories based on your body parts or your skills or ability to make women happy. There are no movies based on having big penises, small penises, big pecs, small pecs, Tall, short, black, white, asian, blond, brunette, MILFs, Teenagers. Women are put into those categories. So you open your eyes. Stop pretending that porn is equal opportunity. Your gender isn’t put into categories based on your body parts or your worth for female masturbation.

            Open your eyes to the fact that the reason most porn out there is crap is because a lot of men, most men, want to see crap. The industry provides what men want to see. No one is even shocked anymore about the most horrific kind of things that are done to women in porn. And if there is “good porn” out there, I don’t even know what that means, that it’s not nearly close enough to being enough to redeem the industry for me and what most men appear to be watching.

            You asked why I used the phrase “real women”. It’s simple. I say “real women” because porn is usually “fantasy” right? It’s suppose to be “fake” right? I am just making a distinction between “real women” in real life that you are involved with vs “fantasy women/fake women” in porn. It is not said to diminish the actual “fake/fantasy women in porn” and imply they aren’t “real”, It is only used to distinguish between the real woman in a man’s life vs the fantasy/fake ones.

            I don’t know why certain women feel shame and others are okay with porn. I suspect there are a ton of different reasons why that is the case. But I don’t like the insinuation that only women with negative experiences don’t like porn and only women with positive experiences do like porn. Sometimes you don’t need to have a negative experience with something to realize it’s not healthy for you.

            How come you dislike my generalizations of men so much when it comes to something like porn but it’s okay to make the generalizations of women that are often made through porn itself? Do you even realize how many generatlizations are made about women through porn itself?

            You said: “You’re generalizing men based on what exactly? That some like to look at younger women? You’re treating men and women as monoliths, men wanting younger women with better bodies, and the women as old hens that just have to accept it. Don’t you see how absolutely offensive that is to men? It’s pretty much saying I don’t respect my partners and just want younger women with better bodies. How do you know what I want? or what all men want?”

            I don’t see how offensive that is to men. Just like you don’t see how freaking offensive porn can be toward women I guess.

            I believe that male media gives messages and insights into the type of things men are looking for in a general board format. A lot of male media focuses on the women being younger and hotter. I have heard enough comments from the years from men as well in real life and see how important age is to men when it comes to women. It often certainly seems like women are just expected to put up with being the “old hen” to him while he lusts after younger versions. You think that’s offensive to men? Think about how offensive that is to women and what she feels each time she is told, “ so what if your mate likes teen porn/porn of young 20 year olds, you just need to accept that and understand men’s “needs”. Be happy that your the one he comes home to.” Or when your told to “jsut watch some porn with him.” And 9 times out of 10 the guy could be anywhere from 20-50 but the women are almost always 18-25. Yeah okay…feel all the outrage you want Archy but you are not the gender being commodified.

            • “Open your eyes to the fact that the reason most porn out there is crap is because a lot of men, most men, want to see crap. The industry provides what men want to see. No one is even shocked anymore about the most horrific kind of things that are done to women in porn. And if there is “good porn” out there, I don’t even know what that means, that it’s not nearly close enough to being enough to redeem the industry for me and what most men appear to be watching.”

              Open your eyes to the fact that porn is a medium, and there is far more porn than what is promoted by the mainstream pornography industry. Time n time again I see men here commenting about watching amateur porn, usermade content, and time n time again I’ve seen you ignore them in favour of painting porn as 9/10 bad. And now you feel free to assert most men want to see crap? You’re completely blinded by bias on the topic. How many pornography videos have you seen? I’ve seen probably 4000+, very few had any violence in them. Yes I can find violent porn if I want to but that’s the thing, it’s categorized, I can easily search for porn that has no violence and the majority I’ve seen across most sites has no violence with women. There is some dirty talk and offensive wording on some titles, I’ll grant you that, I disagree with people that call women names in porn but there’s also a hell of a lot that have none of that.

              And there ARE movies based on having large and small penises, fat guys, skinny guys, black guys, white guys, guys being humiliated and degraded, testicles being tortured, etc. You’re only proving that you haven’t looked at porn much and thus haven’t got that much of an idea of the diversity that is out there. So seriously, please stop trying to assert 9/10 porn movies is degrading, violent, etc when you don’t seem to have seen much of it. The industry provides what men want to see, and that industry is so massively diverse and complex that it’s impossible to generalize men wanting to see “crap”. Big women, small women, fat, skinny, tall, short, white, black, all races, transgendered, man on man, multiple people, orgies, solo, toys, lesbian, and a heap more categories.

              “I don’t know why certain women feel shame and others are okay with porn. I suspect there are a ton of different reasons why that is the case. But I don’t like the insinuation that only women with negative experiences don’t like porn and only women with positive experiences do like porn. Sometimes you don’t need to have a negative experience with something to realize it’s not healthy for you. ”
              I don’t like the insinuation that porn overall is degrading, negative or harmful. I actually agree some porn is bad, but the medium itself isn’t the problem. There is a lot of good porn and it’s extremely insulting to those who watch porn to assume most of them are watching porn that is degrading, negative, violent, etc towards women.

              It’s offensive because it assumes they get off over degrading women, that they are shallow and only want younger women. I know how porn can be offensive to women, certain videos and productions are extremely degrading and it’s obvious how damaging them they can be.

              How about I try this 9 out of 10 thing. 9 out of 10 people who are anti-porn have watched so few titles that they haven’t got a legitimate understanding of the pornography industry to make such claims of how negative it can be. Is that fair? I haven’t seen anyone deny the fact there is some bad stuff in porn and some aspects of the industry are negative, but what I and others are trying to tell you is that it’s not the entire industry, it’s not the entire medium that is bad. It’s as silly as banning all hollywood movies because some are violent.

              I don’t think this argument is going to get anywhere, I can understand to some degree your frustration over porn and I actually agree with some of what you say. But I still see a lot of good, positive, healthy pornography in existence that shouldn’t be thrown out with the bathwater. Nourish the positives of the industry, get the viewers to make the healthy stuff popular (which is already happening) and the negative parts will start to get crippled. The porn industry is already suffering from piracy and lower profit from what I see, amateur user-created content is also pushing in with popularity. This is a good thing, the more positive productions the better the content will be. Not all men, and I doubt most men, actually want to see exploitative and degrading porn but it use to be far more common that it was the only stuff available. Now with the cheap distro costs of the internet it is diversifying the medium for the better.

              • Archy said: “You’re completely blinded by bias on the topic. ”

                I am biased on this topic but I am not “blinded” by it. Certainly not anymore then you are. I find this comment really offensive to be honest. The insinuation that I’m the one that’s blinded but you are what? You’re not? You’re the only one seeing things clearly? You don’t have any biased regarding porn? You’re 100% completely even on it? Right.

                Archy: “How many pornography videos have you seen? I’ve seen probably 4000+, very few had any violence in them. ”

                To make a long story short, I’ve done my research on it. All you got to do is “google” porn, click on the first link, and I don’t see one positive example of women or female sexuality. Lots of hardcore acts being engaged in, appearing to be at the female’s expense. A majority of these women are young and beautiful with perfect breasts and bodies. Sure, they have different faces but for the most part, they fit into a standard concept of what you would think a woman in porn would look like. The guys? There is much more diversity in their age and shape then there is with the woman.

                Archy: “Yes I can find violent porn if I want to but that’s the thing, it’s categorized, I can easily search for porn that has no violence and the majority I’ve seen across most sites has no violence with women.”

                Violent porn isn’t the minority. If it was, people wouldn’t know half the things they know today about things done to women through porn. It’s no longer shocking anymore to make women gag to the point of causing them physical discomfort and certainly not pleasure. Perhaps our idea of what “violent” consists of is different. I don’t know. All I know is that violence toward women in porn seems to be the norm. And if it’s not violent, then you get bet that more times then not, the woman fits into a stereotypical idea of body parts and actions that fit into male fantasies. Ultimately, male fantasy is more important then respect for women and their sexuality. That’s what I’ve learned from men regarding porn.

                Archy: “There is some dirty talk and offensive wording on some titles, I’ll grant you that, I disagree with people that call women names in porn but there’s also a hell of a lot that have none of that.”

                I wonder how many men, upon seeing a woman called a slur, either in the title or else where, boycott such flim. My guess is many/most don’t.

                I also often wonder how men would take it if women sat around masturbating to a billion dollar business that called men Pigs/Jerks..and other horrific names regularly but justified it because some movies didn’t do that or “it’s only in the title”.

                Archy: “And there ARE movies based on having large and small penises, fat guys, skinny guys, black guys, white guys, guys being humiliated and degraded, testicles being tortured, etc. You’re only proving that you haven’t looked at porn much and thus haven’t got that much of an idea of the diversity that is out there. ”

                That is not what MOST of the industry is compromised of. Yes, this porn exists. It is not what most heterosexual men are looking at in comparison to how women are categorized. Please stop acting like everything is created equal in porn. Men are not as nearly or as often categorized based on their body parts as women. That is simply reality. And when men are being categorized like that? It isn’t because that’s what women enjoy. Because most porn isn’t even made for women.

                Archy: “I actually agree some porn is bad, but the medium itself isn’t the problem. There is a lot of good porn and it’s extremely insulting to those who watch porn to assume most of them are watching porn that is degrading, negative, violent, etc towards women.”

                Got it. You’re allowed to feel outraged because I personally believe most porn is degrading to women, and if not degrading (you keep ignoring this element), at the very least, objectifying and stereotyping of her. But how dare a woman feel outrage for how her gender appears to be regularly objectified and stereotyped and catagorized through porn. That’s real fair Archy.

                Archy: “Nourish the positives of the industry, get the viewers to make the healthy stuff popular (which is already happening) and the negative parts will start to get crippled. ”

                Let me ask you something. How come there is a cataory of porn called, “woman friendly porn”? Why does a seperate catagory need to exist that is friendly toward women. Shouldn’t all porn be friendly toward women/ Why does this kind of porn exist to begin with and why is it so abundant? If men want’ed “positive” depictions of sexuality, that is what they would already have. But that is not what men want through porn. They want their fantasy and they want to justify their fantasy on the backs of women.

                How about we nourish real relationships and real sex and real interaction between men and women instead of promoting more of the same with simulated sex. Instead of giving a big thumbs up to an industry that makes his money off promoting male fantasy at the expense of women? How about real sex and real people? Whatever happened to men being happy with that?

                Archy: “The porn industry is already suffering from piracy and lower profit from what I see, amateur user-created content is also pushing in with popularity. ”

                A) I have seem amateur content because I have heard this argument before and decided to look it up myself. The women still appear to be young and pretty more times then not. It still appears to be situations where the man still rules the roast.

                Archy: “This is a good thing, the more positive productions the better the content will be. Not all men, and I doubt most men, actually want to see exploitative and degrading porn but it use to be far more common that it was the only stuff available. Now with the cheap distro costs of the internet it is diversifying the medium for the better.”

                That’s exactly what men want to see. The industry provides the material that moves the fastest. I’ve read interviews with porn producers that said they had to keep pushing the envolope on doing thigns to women to keep the viewers interest. This was comments made from porn producers themselves!

                I don’t buy into the idea that men had to use degrading exploitative porn of women because they just don’t have any other options. Even if that’s true, do you even see how poorly that still paints men regardless? You are basically saying that degrading women was okay because that’s al men had. Poor men!

                • Erin, I’m not annoyed that you’re offended by porn, I feel sad that there exists porn that is terrible and treats people like shit, I feel sad that it affects you and countless others. My entire point is that I am offended by assertations that this is the overall majority of porn, the 90%, which in effect makes those who look at porn supportive of a despicable medium when you have me and other men describing a very different experience.

                  1st link in google is bad? I don’t look at the first link, I may not look at the first 5-10 links, I look at a site that has user-uploaded content, I don’t pay for it, I look at just the videos I like. Yeah I agree the titles need to be changed as some users love to say the dirtytalk shit, it annoys me, I tend to avoid those titles unless for some reason the actress is who I’d like to see. I’ve told others to quit labeling stuff so terrible and we might actually make the medium even more positive and encourage others to put their content in. I see regularly a positive experience for both men and women in porn and that is what I want to be nurtured, I don’t want it to be thrown in with the whole industry as if everything or most is bad when there is a significant amount that is good. Can you understand that? I’ve sexted friends before, in effect I’ve starred in porn, I have friends who’ve done the same and I’ll be damned if I let anyone say it’s 90% negative or degrading. I agree there is quite a lot of bad shit in it, but no where near 90%.

                  “woman friendly porn”? generally is material for women to fantasize over since porn was largely used by males. So stuff that women find to be a turn on, maybe it’s sexy men with a focus on the men instead of the focus on women, maybe it’s different styles of porn.

                  “How about we nourish real relationships and real sex and real interaction between men and women instead of promoting more of the same with simulated sex. Instead of giving a big thumbs up to an industry that makes his money off promoting male fantasy at the expense of women? How about real sex and real people? Whatever happened to men being happy with that? ”

                  Great, do that, but what do men like me do? Wait around until we can find one of the few single women around our age that we can ask out, hope it is successful? I use the medium because it makes a lonely time a lil bit less lonely, I don’t have the privilege of having sex with a gf, I don’t have this “real relationship”. You’re talking from a place of privilege of already being in a relationship, or already have had one, not everyone finds it easy to get a partner! Do you think men like me wouldn’t love to have a partner instead of looking at pixels on a screen trying to imagine what it feels like?

                  “I don’t buy into the idea that men had to use degrading exploitative porn of women because they just don’t have any other options. Even if that’s true, do you even see how poorly that still paints men regardless? You are basically saying that degrading women was okay because that’s al men had. Poor men!”
                  You can look at a video and ignore certain aspects of it, I’ve seen some BDSM films and ignored the tied up part and just focused on the genitalia for instance, certain parts of the film might be ok whilst other parts I didn’t like. Usually I only do that when I really like the actress and BDSM doesn’t do anything for me. So in my mind, in my fantasy, there is no bdsm, no ropes, just fun sex. Considering amongst my friends amateur porn is the most popular form and how I hear about them being sick of cliched, “fake” women, I truly believe amateur porn is taking off bigtime and will be the most popular. You assert that men want to see degradation but is that really true? I know some men will want to see it, some women too, but I highly doubt it’s most.

                  Porn is a massive industry, worldwide, there are millions – billions of productions, a wide variety of genres, I don’t feel that it’s definable as easy as you’d like it to be. The envelope may be pushed for some people but that doesn’t mean the viewers aren’t interested in normal porn, it’s probably more a sign that there is so much porn that it is hard for studios to keep their share of the viewers. The stuff I watch the most recently is where the actress is usually an “amateur”, runs her own website, she will probably have a bf or partner that stars in the films with her and they control it all whilst taking suggestions from the viewers. There are a lot of home-made producers like this but you probably won’t find them easy typing porn into google, maybe if you google for webcam porn it may come up but usually I find the stuff from seeing it on the “youtube” type sites for porn and then later searching for it on their advertised website. The majority of the “good porn” I see is in the amateur sections, home-made, the pro industry in America tends to still do too much of the stuff you talk about which bothers me but the amateur industry is huge itself hence why I don’t think it’s fair to say 9/10 porn is bad if you can understand that. If you want to say most of the PRO porn industry is bad, I’d probably agree, as I said before you need to focus on what PART of porn is bad. I avoid the pro industry where I can because of the bullshit that goes on.

                  • I’d have to see some real conclusive numbers to not believe that most porn isn’t the way I believe it to be Archy. You simply saying it isn’t isn’t going to convince me anymore then me saying it is convinces you. But even if it isn’t horrible violent and degrading and the woman is at least “acting” like she is happy, there are still artificial stereotypes of women and projected femininity being made that a good part of men desire women to live up to. I wish that was something *you* understood Arhcy. It doesn’t always have to be degrading, it is simply objectifying and gives false “fantasies” about female sexuality in an over hyped-male dominated fantasy dynamic.

                    Which is why I don’t understand why you think “amateur porn” solves anything. By the way, from what I’ve seen, amateur porn still seems to be about a stereotypical body type more then it’s not and a traditional age for the women to be more times then not. Is it really all that great that men are just trading one form of porn in for another? I am not convinced it is. Is it great that men are now looking for “amateurs” instead of “fake” porn looking stars? Why is that great? Just more women getting traded in for more women. We got a lot of guys out there looking for a lot of variety and changing women around like they change underwear. Who is to even say what videos are “amatuer” just because they aren’t made in a big expensive studio? The industry is inherently predatory. One day all the porn won’t be magically wonderful and respectful and equal. We don’t even live in that world in our real lives. Why would we through porn. And if men are as you claim concerning porn, the industry LONG ago would have been more “equal”.

                    And no offense, but if you are visiting porn sites, even free ones, I’m about 99% sure that there is still advertising involved. If you click on a page, that counts as a view for the advertising and that is supportive of the industry. Then on the other hand, if you aren’t paying for it, aren’t you denying porn-stars their rightful money to see their content? Just because something is “user-uploaded” doesn’t mean you aren’t taking away from the porn-stars right? How fair is that?

                    Claiming that porn can become “positive” and “encouraging” toward women just by changing titles is like saying Maxim magazines projects healthy ideals of the average female body.

                    And I still fail to understand why there even needs to be a category titled “women friendly”. I don’t understand why the porn men have already, isn’t already “woman friendly”.

                    And no, I don’t think men would “love” to have a partner instead of looking at pixels on a screen. I think men want a partner to love them and have sex with but they also want pixels on the screen to use in conjecture with their relationships.

                    I do understand that not everyone has an easy time finding relationships. I don’t either! But I don’t see how that justifies stereotyping and objectifying an entire gender either. I certainly understand being lonely or horny and human. I don’t fault a man for being lonely and human and looking at porn. I am not saying this type of man is “bad”. But it doesn’t make me ignore the issues it causes for me as a woman. And I don’t think that justifies why porn is okay either. I don’t think the fact that you and other men get horny and lonely is a good enough reason to use an industry that is more times then not, objectifying and stereotyping of women, their bodies and their general sexuality. I certainly don’t have all the answers but I don’t think it’s fair to justify male loneness and horniness on female objectification.

                    • There are popular stereotypes n meme’s in all mediums, male attraction does have popular stereotypes and so yeah that is shown in porn too. Younger women tend to be the most popular, fit/toned bodies are dominant, medium to large breasts dominate the pro industry, amateur I find tends to show a much wider variety of body type combinations. I can easily find large women with thin men, or large men with thin women in amateur porn, it’s a bit harder in the pro stuff unless on a more dedicated niche site.

                      Something I have wondered though: Does porn promote trends in female fashion, or is it simply reacting to fashion trends? I have a feeling it’s mostly reacting to fashion trends, if I am not mistaken brazillians were becoming popular outside of porn, lipstick n makeup already existed, lingerie etc already existed, pretty much all of the sexual devices already existed or were made for reasons other than porn.

                      Amateur porn is good because it allows ANYONE to upload content, if it’s still the stereotypical bodytype then that means only women with that body type are making porn so women outside of that bodytype need to lift their game n start producing it themselves, or they don’t really have a right to criticize the lack of representation.

                      “Just more women getting traded in for more women. We got a lot of guys out there looking for a lot of variety and changing women around like they change underwear. Who is to even say what videos are “amatuer” just because they aren’t made in a big expensive studio? The industry is inherently predatory. One day all the porn won’t be magically wonderful and respectful and equal. We don’t even live in that world in our real lives. Why would we through porn. And if men are as you claim concerning porn, the industry LONG ago would have been more “equal”. ”

                      Umm, the fact that cheap and decent quality cameras exist, it’s quite easy for anyone to make porn? I’ve seen my friends make n broadcast porn, they’re not hired by anyone but do it because it turns them on, exhibitionism, take your pick. THe problem with the assuming men are X because of the industry is troubling and false because it requires those in the industry to make the choice in the first place to make such a product, and who’s to say they did? Porn evolved in a time of major sexism and I wouldn’t expect it long ago to be equal, I think it reflects society quite a lot. What I see NOW is far more equal, even in pro porn there is a lot of mutual pleasure going on that I see, there are videos which only 1 side gets pleasure but I think they’re becoming rare (and yes even women can be that single gendered pleasured). In the amateur stuff I’d estimate 95% of what I have seen involves mutual pleasure, both parties interested in getting each other off, and it’d be more representative of sex than the pro industry is. And yes there are quite a lot of amateur BJ videos, but there is also quite a lot of videos with bj, then him giving oral, or her getting oral only, a random mix.

                      “And no offense, but if you are visiting porn sites, even free ones, I’m about 99% sure that there is still advertising involved. If you click on a page, that counts as a view for the advertising and that is supportive of the industry. Then on the other hand, if you aren’t paying for it, aren’t you denying porn-stars their rightful money to see their content? Just because something is “user-uploaded” doesn’t mean you aren’t taking away from the porn-stars right? How fair is that?”

                      Yes, and it’s similar to youtube. The youtube style site gets the admoney, people upload their videos to that site and if they want to make money from their videos then there are sites which pay the uploaders, and have communites of porn viewers who will pay extra and request various stuff. You can also use the subscription style services, but they’re mainly for the pro industry. Most amateur stuff I’ve seen is by the youtube style site, or the uploader/producer gets paid style site and I usually look at the youtube style sites because they’re random, have a massive variety:for instance I like freckled redheads but they can be rare in the industry due to stereotypical likes, but the amateur sites are more represenative of women I see daily which is why I look at them. I don’t like the “fake” look, my favourite videos are what I’d expect to make myself if my partner and I were so inclined.

                      “And I still fail to understand why there even needs to be a category titled “women friendly”. I don’t understand why the porn men have already, isn’t already “woman friendly”. ”
                      I don’t think it means safe for women to watch, I think it means stuff women might be turned on more by. For instance in the male section you might get a lot of bj videos because we’re men, we have a penis, many of us like to recieve oral so we might wanna watch that but is a male point of view video going to be something a woman would want to watch? A female freindly video would be a female recieving oral from her point of view (as in the camera looks down from the females head, can see down her body like you would if you look down, giving better immersion into the fantasy). I’ve heard the female videos focus more on sensuality, touching, etc which may not turn men on as much as women. I know that style of touching doesn’t do much for me so I wouldn’ be surprised if that is a very gendered sort of turn-on.

                      “Claiming that porn can become “positive” and “encouraging” toward women just by changing titles is like saying Maxim magazines projects healthy ideals of the average female body. ”
                      Terrible analogy, porn is a medium, maxim is a certain publication. If you said Magazines project a healthy ideal of the average female body, you might be onto something. Porn can become “positive” and “encouraging”, I think it already has, plenty of females I’ve seen like porn and understand there is good and bad porn out there. You’re treating it as a monolith however, and it’s impossible to do because it’s not single genre, it’s a wide range of genres within the human sexuality so already your claim is flawed because there are many positive and encouraging views of the female body. Now if it isn’t positive TO YOU, I can understand that, but please don’t speak for all of us, it’s extremely offensive and insulting to hear porn talked about as if it’s ONLY bad because you’re basically lumping a lot of men n women under the umbrella implying they enjoy a negative medium that isn’t healthy. It’s as healthy as any medium, hell the romance genre has good n bad in it, movies in general have good n bad movies, photography, all have good n bad.

                      “I do understand that not everyone has an easy time finding relationships. I don’t either! But I don’t see how that justifies stereotyping and objectifying an entire gender either. I certainly understand being lonely or horny and human. I don’t fault a man for being lonely and human and looking at porn. I am not saying this type of man is “bad”. But it doesn’t make me ignore the issues it causes for me as a woman. And I don’t think that justifies why porn is okay either. I don’t think the fact that you and other men get horny and lonely is a good enough reason to use an industry that is more times then not, objectifying and stereotyping of women, their bodies and their general sexuality. I certainly don’t have all the answers but I don’t think it’s fair to justify male loneness and horniness on female objectification.”

                      You just don’t get it, because many of us are looking at material that isn’t objectifying! Admiring the female body, admiring sexuality is not objectification. THe industry might have it’s bad side but there is also a lot of good, just because you choose to focus on thenegative doesn’t mean we’re all watching that bad type of porn. You’re stereotyping and generalizing about a porn, it’s impossible to do, even the industry has many subsections, different cultures, different locations that it’s impossible to just think of it in a hollywood sense. The porn industry of the US could be vastly different to the porn industry in Russia. Do you think hating the ENTIRE medium is justified because there are bad elements? Do you think it’s fair to assume porn will always promote a negative view of women, ALL porn? Or can you understand that there is a huge amount of good porn out there and many of us men n women actively look for and consume, because we want to see equality, want to see men n women having fun, not being treated like shit. Everything I watch has consenting actors, they willingly choose to be in these videos, are you honestly going to tell me they’re ALL choosing to hurt women?

                      SEPERATE THE GOOD FROM THE BAD. Realize that not every one watchs the same stuff! What is right for me, doesn’t have to be right for you. If you don’t want to watch it, that’s fine, if you don’t want to date people that watch it, that’s fine, we aren’t going to date each other so there’s no issue. I have faith that amateur porn will reflect a more realistic view of society as long as people keep making it, so are you going to make porn and combat the negative or sit on the sidelines and tell others their behaviour is wrong?

                      Porn WILL NEVER EVER go away, the only choice people have is either ignore it, give up and accept it as it is, or PROMOTE the good side. Praise people for looking at the good stuff, get more support behind the good stuff, women need to become producers more often and produce their own kind of porn (which is happening thank god), only way to have diversity is if a diverse range of the population produces content. Who’s fault is it really if only a few are willing to put their money up n produce content, that’ll only keep porn in a narrow style without too much deviation because people don’t want to lose money…But the great thing is the distribution and production costs are plummeting, a few hundred bucks for an internet connect and camera is all that is needed now to make decent quality porn. I see so many attack porn and demonize those that watch it, clearly many people want to look at porn, so why not create good stuff or at least promote it?

                    • Archy: “There are popular stereotypes n meme’s in all mediums,…”

                      Saying there are stereotypes in all mediums, and there are, seems to be an attempt to minimize the way it specifically happens in porn and popular male media. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be attempting to bring attention to other mediums and point the finger away from the specifics of how this is influence in something like porn.

                      Archy: “Male attraction does have popular stereotypes and so yeah that is shown in porn too. Younger women tend to be the most popular, fit/toned bodies are dominant, medium to large breasts dominate the pro industry…”

                      And from this, women learn what is important to men. Men are giving women very clear messages about the importance they place on such factors when it comes to women. Then men wonder why women feel insecure by his porn use of younger, bigger breasted, (the list goes on) girls. Oh but of course, because you watch “amateur porn”, this makes it okay because in amateur porn, it’s all kittens and rainbows and equality.

                      Archy: “Something I have wondered though: Does porn promote trends in female fashion, or is it simply reacting to fashion trends? I have a feeling it’s mostly reacting to fashion trends, if I am not mistaken brazillians were becoming popular outside of porn, lipstick n makeup already existed, lingerie etc already existed, pretty much all of the sexual devices already existed or were made for reasons other than porn.”

                      I certainly think there are certain beauty standards that porn has absolutely helped to foster for women that men have eagerly placed on real women. Not only beauty standards but sexual expectations unfairly used as barometers for how her sexuality should be to best excite him. Certain expectations men now place on women to act or dress or shape their bodies into what they have seen through what actresses do in porn. I do not deny that this also happens in the female market. But I am not going to deny how the male market contributes just because I know it also happens within the female one. I just think that pointing out that this happens in the female market, and it does, within a discussion clearly about porn (mostly a male market), doesn’t give justice to the topic of porn and what it does to contribute. And I find it more to be a way people look to divert from admitting the truth about the porn industry and the expectations it sets about women and their bodies

                      Archy: “Amateur porn is good because it allows ANYONE to upload content, if it’s still the stereotypical bodytype then that means only women with that body type are making porn so women outside of that bodytype need to lift their game n start producing it themselves, or they don’t really have a right to criticize the lack of representation.”

                      So because there are stereotypical ideals of women’s bodies that men want to see vs other kinds men don’t want to see, it’s up to women to produce more porn content for men and you consider this being women “lifting their game”? And it’s all their fault that men over idolize certain body types over others because women aren’t getting out there enough to produce more porn for more guys to jerk off too? Yeah come on Ladies! Get those tapes rolling! It’s your fault that there isn’t more porn for men to jerk off too! Strip down and show yourself getting down and dirty to make those men happy! Geez …come on Archy. We aren’t talking about minorities being under-represented on political issues. I can’t seriously believe you just said that.

                      Archy: “I don’t think it means safe for women to watch, I think it means stuff women might be turned on more by.”

                      If porn was friendly to women to begin with (and since you are a big promotor that porn is so equal between men and women), there wouldn’t be the need for porn that was titled “woman friendly” porn at all. It would simply already be friendly for women. But it’s not. Since it takes men an women to have sex, why would there even be separations in the sexual material if it was suppose to be mutually enjoyable? There wouldn’t be!

                      Archy: “Terrible analogy, porn is a medium, maxim is a certain publication.If you said Magazines project a healthy ideal of the average female body, you might be onto something. ”

                      They are both mediums. And I thought my analogy was just fine. But thanks for the condescending comment regardless. And I don’t think magazines project healthy ideals for the average female body so why in the world would I say that?

                      Archy: “Porn can become “positive” and “encouraging”, I think it already has, plenty of females I’ve seen like porn and understand there is good and bad porn out there. You’re treating it as a monolith however, and it’s impossible to do because it’s not single genre, it’s a wide range of genres within the human sexuality so already your claim is flawed because there are many positive and encouraging views of the female body.”

                      No Archy, your claim is flawed because I never once said “all porn was the worst!” I said that most porn was pretty bad and that most porn represents what mostly men mostly want. I said that most porn represents female sexuality poorly and when it’s not doing that, it’s still pretty darn objectifying to women in general. I also don’t think men spending even more time hunting out other forms of porn solves the problem or makes thing healthier. Sitting infront of your computer/tv seeking out sexual medium instead of learning to engage with real woman if real interaction is what you really want, seems counterproductive and illogical.

                      And just because you think something is “positive” and “encouraging” toward women, doesn’t mean I agree. And it doesn’t make me flawed because I don’t agree. It doesn’t make you better because you don’t agree.

                      Archy: “Now if it isn’t positive TO YOU, I can understand that….”

                      No you can’t. YOu above told me my beliefs are flawed..because we both know yours are perfect and right. Check got it. Your way of think is right. Mine’s flawed. Fantastic. Thanks.

                      Archy: “.. but please don’t speak for all of us, it’s extremely offensive and insulting to hear porn talked about as if it’s ONLY bad because you’re basically lumping a lot of men n women under the umbrella implying they enjoy a negative medium that isn’t healthy. “

                      And I find it extremely offensive how much you defend the industry and even female objectification because men get horny and lonely.
                      And yes, I do think a lot of men an women enjoy a medium that isn’t healthy. I don’t think most of what porn is healthy. I don’t think people were made to sit around and fondle themselves 24/7 infront of screens. I don’t think the current ideals that men gravitate toward in porn are going to magically get better and that the industry is going to turn into kittens and rainbows. And I think *you* want to ignore the popularity of negative material because you personally believe the stuff you watch is good/positive.

                      Archy: “You just don’t get it, because many of us are looking at material that isn’t objectifying!”

                      Yes, I heard the “You don’t get it”, line from you before. You get it and I don’t. Check.

                      But the reality is, that’s not a statement you can make. You don’t know what other people consider objectifying. You don’t get to tell me that something isn’t objectifying anymore then I can tell you that it is. That is the reality. You might not think something is objectifying and I might think it is but you don’t get to tell me that because of this, I’m the one that doesn’t get it.

                      Archy: “Admiring the female body, admiring sexuality is not objectification.”

                      But we aren’t simply talking about something as simple as just “admiring” or even “celebrating” female sexuality. You are over simplifying a complex issue. You said yourself that most porn is made for men. That’s not about celebrating women or their sexuality. You use the medium for a specific reason that is geared to your own personal satisfaction. You seek out porn that helps accomplish this. Before you talked about why there was “female friendly porn” vs porn for men. That isn’t about admiring women for who they are. It’s about wanting to see what you want from women based on your own desires. That’s not admiration. You don’t use the medium as a form of celebration for women or admiration.

                      Archy: “THe industry might have it’s bad side but there is also a lot of good, just because you choose to focus on thenegative doesn’t mean we’re all watching that bad type of porn.”

                      I choose to focus on what I think is mostly out there and what I’ve experience and seen with men and how porn has shaped the way they view women and sexuality.

                      Archy: “You’re stereotyping and generalizing about a porn, it’s impossible to do, even the industry has many subsections, different cultures, different locations that it’s impossible to just think of it in a hollywood sense.”

                      No, It’s not impossible to stereotype and generalize about porn. In the beginning of your own post you made your own stereotypes and generalizations. I don’t see how it’s okay for you to do so but somehow when I do it, it’s impossible. You got a double standard here Archy. You’ve done nothing but stereotype and generalize porn on the side of what you think is positive. I guess it’s okay to stereotype and generalize as long as you are in favor of something.

                      Archy: “Do you think it’s fair to assume porn will always promote a negative view of women, ALL porn?”

                      I think it’s logical to assume that most porn will more regularly promote negative views of women then not. Men have the exact kind of porn they want. Which is why so much of the industry treats women poorly. And I sincerely question how men feel about women considering a lot of the things men like seeing done to women through porn.

            • some guy says:

              I think you’re right on the money. The media message is younger and hotter. And men (all? most?) do like younger and hotter. I don’t watch porn of women who look like my wife. Really, no desire to. If I’m going to fantasize, why not fantasize about what I can’t have anymore? And if she wants to look at or read about guys I can’t be anymore either, so what?

              It’s not that I don’t like the way she looks. It’s not that I don’t lust after her too. Mostly porn is something that helps with me being hornier than her.

              • Some Guy, the fact that you aren’t bothered by what type of men she wants to think about doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be bothered by what type of women you think about. If she is, she is. And I get it, you don’t care if she is lusting after 18 year old boys. But If she is bothered by you lusting after 18 year old girls, then there is a problem because she is the other half of your relationship. I’m not saying I know what the solution is but I’ve heard your response so many times. The general comment is, “I’m a man and men like younger women better. So what? Thats just the way it is.” This doesn’t really do a lot to foster better communication or more understanding between each other. And whether men like it or not, if you are continually lusting after younger versions then your own partner, you are giving her a very clear message about where you consider women’s worth, her worth and how a part of you does believe she is interchangable with younger versions.

                Out of curiousity, does your wife read about and masturbate to material of men? If so, how often? I sincerely just don’t think men have to deal with this issue the same way as much as women do. Despite the fact that I am sure there are women that masturbate to material of men that are men who their own partners couldn’t ever live up to. So I don’t think men understand the scale to which women are forced to deal with this since the say they hit puberty.

                At the end of the day, you either care about how your partner feels or don’t. And frankly, in my opinion, men aren’t giving women much hope if what it always comes down to for men, is for his interest in the younger and hotter babes. It’s not fair or right when men expect this not to have an impact or impression on a woman. He is indirectly communicating something very realistic about his interest in women vs her and the worth he associates with younger women vs his own aging partner. You want to know one reason why women are so obessed with staying young? Because we know how society and even our own men devalue us for it. It;’s obvious everytime I hear a man say, “So what I like younger babes. Deal with it. “

                • some guy says:

                  “And whether men like it or not, if you are continually lusting after younger versions then your own partner, you are giving her a very clear message about where you consider women’s worth, her worth and how a part of you does believe she is interchangable with younger versions.”

                  So, you’re saying that a woman’s worth is defined by my lust? Or that I should squelch a basic, innate, biological drive because it makes someone else unhappy?

                  Why are you so unhappy that women have to learn to deal with men’s sex drives? I ask out of curiousity, because I’m unhappy with that idea too. Perhaps we differ in the sense that my unhappiness stems from the inability of some to learn how to deal with it.

                  For example, my wife. Just as I pointed out that I have some basic, innate, biological drives, so does she. Hers are very different and frankly inadequate for us to maintain a sex life that satisfies me. I don’t think her drives, however, are any less real than mine. Which of us should suck it up and take one for the team?

                  You seem to obsess about this younger and hotter thing. I’d like it if my wife made more effort to stay younger–by which I mean fit, attractive, energetic and interested in sex. I try to stay young as well.

                  If your point is that older men should start talking about how sexy flab and fatigue are, good luck with that.

                  • Some Guy: “So, you’re saying that a woman’s worth is defined by my lust? Or that I should squelch a basic, innate, biological drive because it makes someone else unhappy?”

                    A woman or man’s sexuality is part of their relationship. If a man is continually on the hunt for younger versions, it will send a very clear message to his woman about how he views women and their worth. We all may have certain biological drives but it doesn’t mean we exploit them in favor of our own desires. Should I use men for money because women stereotypically and biologically are told they hunt for “providers?” I don’t think that would be right of me and I wouldn’t feel good using men like that anyway. So I ground myself so I don’t use men for that purpose. I don’t exploit men for their money.

                    Some guy: “Why are you so unhappy that women have to learn to deal with men’s sex drives? I ask out of curiousity, because I’m unhappy with that idea too.”

                    Because it seems that in this culture, male sex drive and fantasy overrules anything over concerning women. Women get it beat into their head regularly how men need this or men need that and if you don’t live up to that, you better accept that he is going to seek it out other ways and you better be happy with the scraps he throws your way. So what if he uses other women to get excited enough to have sex with you! Spread your legs and just be happy he wants to use you regardless. So what if he really wants the 18 year old, at least he is giving you some scraps of attention! The idea is that women are interchangeable, unimportant and certainly not the woman he can find through images of younger women that he needs to sustain his relationship with his aging partner.

                    Some Guy: “For example, my wife. Just as I pointed out that I have some basic, innate, biological drives, so does she. Hers are very different and frankly inadequate for us to maintain a sex life that satisfies me. I don’t think her drives, however, are any less real than mine. Which of us should suck it up and take one for the team?”

                    You two should come together to work it out and understand how your actions affect the other. Like if your partner gets out of shape and how that affects your feelings. Possibly you lookign at porn of other younger women affects her feelings toward you as well.

                    Some Guy:” You seem to obsess about this younger and hotter thing. I’d like it if my wife made more effort to stay younger–by which I mean fit, attractive, energetic and interested in sex. I try to stay young as well.”

                    No, I don’t obsess about it. But I am very honest in the issue it presents for women. Please don’t write it off or write my comments off by telling me “I’m obsessed”. It’s a very real thing that happens and it’s even something that was in the orginal topic to this article. The woman was bothered by her partners interest in younger women.

                    What is the point in a wife “staying younger” if at the end of the day, she still sees her man sometimes turning to 20 year olds through porn? If this is the case, she has very little incentive to work at this aspect because no matter what she does, she won’t be 20 again and she can’t compete with his fantasies to bang out 20 year olds. There is no point for her to do this since it’s not going to take away his desire to look at whatever younger and hotter women are out there under the guise of his “biology”. She gets the messsage loud and clear.

                    Some Guy: “If your point is that older men should start talking about how sexy flab and fatigue are, good luck with that.”

                    That’s a really insensitive and mean comment Some Guy. It makes me question how much you care about working with your wife or how much you just care about getting your own needs met and not being very supportive to women in general. Life happens. Not all women get to have perfect bodies. Not all women are naturally thin. Women have kids, have to work, have to take care of a home. We don’t get to just stay home anymore. We have more pressure then ever before. Some kindness and understanding would fair better then making snide comments about how men don’t like “flab and fatigue”. Women also tend to naturally be more fatty then men due to that biology you were talking about and it takes us longer to burn it off because we don’t have the muscle mass men stereotypically have. Ironically, there are tougher guidelines for our bodies about weight then men.

                    • some guy says:

                      I think you have some unrealistic and unreasonable ideas about people, both men and women. But, you probably feel the same way about mine.

                    • I never thought anything you said sounded unrealistic or unreasonable. I also don’t think I’ve said anything that are either of those things either.

          • married woman says:

            there are women with problems that cause them not to be able to have sex 24/7 . they arent with holding to be mean or have power they with hold it cause it isn’t enjoyable to have pain every second you are trying to please a man and why would they want to hurt us like that is it fun to have sex with someone that cant help but cry the whole time;.

            • When I talk about withholding sex I mean when they are healthy, able to have sex but withhold it as a weapon, not because they’re unable to for medical reasons or just not turned on.

              The couple would have to find a way to deal with the inability to have sex. It’s a terrible situation, both for the person unable to have sex and also the partner as they can’t share in a usually wonderful activity. For the women who can’t have sex due to pain I doubt most men would think they are doing it on purpose or using it as a power play. It’s tricky when one partner wants one thing and the other doesn’t or cannot engage in that activity.

        • Michelle says:

          I cannot even explain how accurate and powerful your arguments are. Thank you for your courage and for being so honest.

      • married woman says:

        the thing is if you got married you should not look or want to look at any one but your wife. When I got married almost 14 yrs ago I was not shy with my husband when I caught him on the porn sites. I almost left him then and told him this was not acceptable behavor. Now 13 years later I am faced with the same thing. I love my husband he is my world but the porn and chatting is a form of cheating in my opinion. if you get married and your other half tells you it isn’t acceptable you have that oppertunity to leave her. If you stay you then understand that she feels this way and should not do it again. if you do and get caught don’t telll her it is her fault its not you are the one that chose to go down this road again not her. she has done everything for you and your children and been honest from the beginning. so don ‘t do it. dont make her feel it is her fault and that she is the one that did something wrong. don’t lie about it. and yes hiding it when she comes in the room and acting like you are doing nothing wrong is cheating. so stop or she may put you where you belong. in the ground!

        • What about those with an open marriage? It’s an individual couples choice to make whether porn is acceptable or not. Please don’t shame others who are married and partake in those activities. Marriage for you may be that way, and that’s fine, but marriage is up to the couple themselves.

          I’d be worried more about chatting than the porn personally, chatting I feel is more intimate but that’s just me. I hope you both can work it out.

          “don’t lie about it. and yes hiding it when she comes in the room and acting like you are doing nothing wrong is cheating.”
          I think part of that is the shame many men feel for looking at porn because they know quite a lot of women will shame them for it. Having to hide part of their sexuality basically. Have you talked about it with him? He may be clueless as to why exactly it bothers you.

          Would you stop reading romance novels (if you do), or watching certain kinds of movies with men in it because he feels you’re cheating on him with it?

          “so stop or she may put you where you belong. in the ground!”
          Are you seriously suggesting men who look at porn deserve to die? If you honestly think that of your husband then quite frankly why stay together? Those are some dangerous thoughts you’re harboring so I’d seriously suggest seeking help if they are honest thoughts and not just angry sarcasm.

          Porn may be off limits in your marriage, but please don’t act like everyone should keep it offlimits. Many couples look at porn together, participate and make their own porn, share it, etc. Their marriages are not worth less than yours, n quite frankly it’s tiring to hear people place restrictions on what marriage “should be”.

        • If he’s watching, I’d guess you’re not in fact doing “everything” for him.

  33. Confused wife says:

    Thank you for yor honesty. I feel like I can understand how my own husband must feel because of you puting personal experience/feelings out there.
    Very admirable. Thanks again.
    Best wishes,
    Confused wife

  34. “Candles? Boyfriend’s old sweatshirt? What world do you live in? What a ridiculous stereotype and not something I expected to see here.”

    As ignorant as women can be about men’s masturbation, this shows that men can be just as clueless about women’s masturbation and the motives, fantasies, and methods behind it. Womenz crave variety too.

  35. For me at least, porn/masturbation are roughly interchangeable with sex. If we’re seeing other each plenty, then I don’t watch any porn; if we’re separated for 3-4 days or more, the porn’s back on. I need a high level of sexual stimulation in my life and unfortunately real life will get in the way of my darling being around every now and then.

    As regards this guy’s specific porn interests, though, they all sound quite “toppy”; anal, punishment, youth (implying power imbalance), probably implying some domination/submission fantasies – all perfectly normal and not at all a sign of serious mental issues. I have no idea whether he wants to keep these fantasies on his computer or maybe introduce them into his sex life, and whether or not his wife would be up for this, but this is certainly something she should talk to him about.

    • Paragraph 2 of my reply was addressed to “Christi” just above, BTW. I actually assumed Christi was the OP, but that’s clearly a misread.

  36. Tom Brechlin says:

    Gone are the days when someone would buy their porn mag and it would be put in a brown paper bag. Porn is a multibillion dollar industry and going strong.

    Looking at the comments, of course the assumption is that there is a problem in a relationship, that she’s not giving out as she should, he’s no interested in her anymore and yadda yadda.

    Porn is addictive, it stimulates feelings of pleasure. Accordingly, a persons brain is going to continue to look at ways to continue to feed those feelings. Excessively watching porn is an indication that someone may have a real problem. P&M go hand in hand (no pun intended). 372 million pornographic Web pages. According to experts, 25 million Americans visit cyber-sex sites every week, leading some to become sex addicts.

    It’s one thing to simply occasionally watch porn, it’s another to do it a lot.

  37. I’m not to say fully anti-porn just concerned about it. My husband and I have been married for 12 years, we have always been open about porn and other things, awhile ago anyway. To me what is concerning is the type of porn he is watching. He has turned to the things I’m not. Teen porn, excuse me they haven’t found the fountain of youth yet and we have a daughter that is getting closer to be a teen. No he’s not a pedafile. Anal, won’t do it. Punishment, that one is extremely concerning as well. I am seriously starting to think that my husband has serious mental issues. I know people change as they get older and I don’t know why that wouldn’t include in the bedroom. He won’t talk to me about any of this so all I can do is let it go, right?

    • Wow, that really sucks. If it’s something that’s bothering you, it’s wrong for him to just not talk to you, especially if you have both been open in the past. Maybe he’s afraid of making you feel bad or maybe he’s ashamed. But that seems like an issue that needs to be discussed.

      Sorry you’re in that situation. I would feel the same way.

    • I’d talk to him about it, find out why certain things turn him on. It might just be fantasy, maybe a way to relive the youth of his day, aging does affect men as well and he might have some trouble dealing with it? With people in their late teens and the 20’s, generally the bodies are quite fit and many seem very athletic, toned, and in a culture that treats fat like a disease it can be quite understandable why the thinner bodies can be so popular. It could be a symptom of a wider issue in society, nearly everything to do with beauty desires that perfect soft skin, toned body, perky features, youthful skin is highly prized.

      But what someone fantasizes about can just be that, a fantasy, never meant for reality but it can be the forbidden fruit of bondage roleplay for instance, maybe he doesn’t actually want to hurt anyone but simply wants to feel powerful. Does he feel like others hold power over him? feel powerless? Maybe he wants to feel in control and the alpha male for a while in his fantasy, it may be an idea to try some role play IF done properly and done for the right reason. You shouldn’t degrade yourself in the process or do something you don’t want to do, these are merely options you can consider.

      People can change as they get older, but their attraction may not, I think it varies person to person. He may simply be stuck in the past, or retreated to the past as current times might be stressful as hell, he could feel powerless and just want to escape in his fantasy world. And most important, it doesn’t mean you are at fault, doesn’t mean you didn’t do enough or did too much, it could totally be his issue alone.

      Talk to him, find out why he likes it, say what bothers you but don’t try to shame him or accuse him. Probably a good idea to word the sentences with “I feel ….”, “I was wondering what you liked about teen porn?” instead of “you do this….”.

    • married man says:

      Somethings to consider…

      Maybe he has some fantasies that he enjoys even though he doesn’t expect them to become realities and has no plans to act them out. I know I do. They’re arousing, but perhaps ultimately all in his head. Porn is one way to enjoy those. The “younger woman” (but of legal age) one is perhaps a good example of that. I have no illusions in my own life about having sex with women of that age. Still, I like to see them. I like that it reminds me of being younger and of some past lovers and experiences.

      Maybe he has some fantasies that he would love to act out, with you. But he knows you’re not into them and so this is how enjoys them. In my life, anal sex is one of those fantasies. It’s something I used to enjoy with other lovers and with my wife, but she’s just not into anymore.

      I agree that we change a bit as we age, but I wouldn’t chalk his porn habit up to that. Personally, I find it profoundly frustrating when my own sex life is lacking in novelty. Sometimes comfort food is what you need; sometimes you’re in the mood for a spicy dish. The same thing all the time is a little maddening. In and out of bed, we all need to find ways to stay “new” for our spouses.

      In my own life, it’s been hard to get much resolution about this issue. When I raise the issue in general, my wife seems to feel like I’m disappointed in her. When I bring up specific ideas and they get shot down I feel judged and rejected. This dynamic makes it very hard and uncomfortable to talk about these things with my wife, however much I’d ultimately like to.

      For what it’s worth I don’t think my problems are unsolvable, hopefully yours aren’t either. But, I don’t have any easy answers for either of us.

      • Thank you all for writing in a comment and being so gentle with the subject. It has given me a lot to think about and consider. One thing that it did make me think about is I guess I do it too. I read my romance novels, addicted to them. That is a form of porn, same as watching a lot of “chick flicks”, depending on the author and/or the movie. I read my books looking for an escape and a little excitement in and out of the bedroom. I would never ask my husband to dress up as a pirate and kidnap me to a boat. LOL Not his cup of tea. I think my biggest fear is that he is going to replace me with porn or I’m not going to be able to satisfy him in the bedroom because these fantisies are the only thing that gets him off. I have no doubt that things have gotten boring, I’m even bored, even with the five things that we alternate have become more of a job than fun. I will just have to think of other ways to “spice” things up and hope that he doesn’t get bored. That was sooo much easier before kids. Married man you did really bring it home for me with the comfort food. I love to cook and when all I make are tacos or chicken something sometimes it is really good to just take the time and make that juicy cheesy lasagna. Great now I think I want lasagna. By putting a little love and care into what you do can make that “meal” so much better and crave to do it again. I think we’ve just lost track of time and the caring and loving that it takes to make that sweet love with the days and little time that we do have together. Time to SLOW down. Thanks again all.

      • I’m married, and I love watching porn. Love it! Especially the amature stuff. Why? The smiles, the happieness, I love watching people who love having sex do their thing. I think pornography could be a way higher art form but with all the confusion and puritanical pressures I suppose we’re lucky having what we got. As long as ALL participants are of age, not hooked on drugs (which sadly enough alot of the pros are), enjoying it ect… With the new wave of “female friendly porn”, porn made by women directors that claim to feature female pleasure as opposed to “man porn”, which is focused on other things, the call that “her porn” I call it better porn. Why do we have no problems with violent movies and dramas about people we don’t know but watching sex is fiendish. God gave me orgasm, and God gave me the biology that makes me feel that world peace has been achieved when I watch a woman’s face as she comes.
        If any porn makers read this, more facial expression and less mechanical close ups, please.

        • More mechanical closeups please! Better detail!
          Just create variety in the genre, don’t remove mechanical detail, not all of us want to stare at a face all the time. If you want that, there are plenty of “orgasm reaction” videos out there.

  38. “I can admit to having a Madonna/Whore complex but at the same time, porn has made me a better orgasm hunter, less needy and longer lasting. My GF hates that it takes so long for me to pop but would she be happier if I were an incompetent minute man? ”

    Budmin–is there a way to find a medium ground? Some men last longer and some ‘pop’ more quickly due to body chemistry and both are natural and great. If it’s porn that’s making you last so long that it’s annoying your girlfriend, maybe you could cut back a little (not cut it out completely, just experiment with less frequency or take a few days off and see what happens). If you were a man who came too quickly, I’d suggest trying masturbating more. It’s doesn’t have to be black and white either. It’s not just ‘incompetent minute man’ and ‘rubs vagina raw while going so long that you can’t breathe anymore man’ (terrible super hero names, btw). I’m curious about the ‘less needy’ thing. Does it mean that you desire sex less? Because that could also be seen as a bad thing if you’re with a woman who needs regular sex or wants to feel sexy.

    I have to commend you on your honesty about the madonna/whore thing. I have to be honest and say that that kind of thing terrifies me, as a woman. It’s a no-win. Sex, feeling sexy, and sexual excitement are extremely important to me, but it tends to be better and safer within a relationship (and a life of love and shared responsibilities is great). I don’t want to be sexually neglected because I’m seen as a ‘Madonna’ and I don’t want to be written off for a relationship because I’m a ‘Whore.’ It’s good to from hear someone who understands that they feel it, rather than just denying it and resenting his wife or the fact that he can’t find a girlfriend.

    (I lost the thread here, and was writing in wordpad to avoid the refresh bug)

  39. Candles? Boyfriend’s old sweatshirt? What world do you live in? What a ridiculous stereotype and not something I expected to see here. If I were your girlfriend, I bet I’d be sneaking off to masturbate all the time.

  40. Some Guy says:

    If any woman said “I feel a little left out in the mornings when you get up to masturbate” to me, I’d tell her politely that what I do with my own body is my own business. If she persisted, I would speak more bluntly.

    • Wow. You’re going to be lonely for a long time until you grow up and realize a relationship is not all about you.

      • Yeah, what’s the point of being in a relationship if that’s how you feel about/are going to act towards your woman? Do her a favor and leave her so that she can find someone who respects her and her sexual and emotional desires.

    • Your post is almost funny… I would imagine your balls have not dropped yet? Mature up fella!

      • The Blurpo says:

        ” I would imagine your balls have not dropped yet? Mature up fella!”

        Mature up, grow up, man up…man I hate thise sentences…..

  41. Anthony Zarat says:

    “Let’s get one thing out of the way real quick. ALL men ..”

    No.

    “.. except for the incredibly repressed, asexual, and/or flat-out liars ..”

    No. No. No.

    • Very true. I know for a fact my fiance doesn’t, or else my dad’s monthly internet checks (for viruses) would have picked this up. And no, my fiance isn’t that fancy with computers to the point where he knows how to prevent this because I doubt he even knows about my dad’s internet checks.

      • wellokaythen says:

        Technically, you can’t really prove a negative like that. You could make an excellent case that it’s highly unlikely that he’s looking at internet porn, given x, y, and z evidence, but unless you’re supervising him 24/7, you can’t really say “for a fact” that he’s not. I’m not saying that he is, but ultimately it’s a question of probabilities or trust.

        So many computers in the world, so many porny sites that don’t generate viruses….

      • Um, you might be right, I don’t know your fiance… but I have to point out that you don’t have to go to a site riddled with popup ads, malware and costs 19.95 a month to find, er… “material.”

        Hell, sometimes all it takes is turning Google’s “safesearch” off.

        • wellokaythen says:

          Sometimes the American Apparel ads on this website are stimulation enough. If he’s reading the Good Men Project he may be looking at “non-porn porn.”

    • I doubt you’ll see this, but thank you for being a male who doesn’t. You are very rare, and people like you are close to my heart. Thank you.

  42. Well, the wife gf just isn’t as exciting as porn.
    This is yet another reason I do not have a boyfriend. I dont want to be with someone who’d rather be in front of a computer instead of in bed with me.

    I think it’s just sad that now this behavior is being justified more and more. The underlying message is always that’s it’s the woman’s fault. Let’s be real, porn is so easy, most men do not have the self control to say no. Unless a woman can morph into a different woman every few minutes, she can never do for her man what porn can.

    • Tell me, if you heard a man say ‘most women do not have the self control to say no’, what kind of man would you think he was?

      Masturbation isn’t anyone’s ‘fault’. Men do it because it’s awesome, not to spite their wives and girlfriends. And please, stop acting like women are any different. I was 16 the last time I dated a woman who didn’t have an imitation Johnson sitting in her top drawer.

    • Unless a woman can morph into a different woman every few minutes, she can never do for her man what porn can.

      Alice, if you look at a photo or movie of someone (any phot or movie, not just porn), are you actually with them? Of course not. It’s ridiculous for you to suggest that porn is “doing” things that a physical person can’t do. Porn may excite or give fodder for fantasy, but it is not touch, or emotional connection, or any of those other things that you only get from a real person, which even consumers of porn continue to desire and enjoy. By your logic, it’s not just porn, but fantasies that are a threat, because even unaided by porn, fantasies can come up with far more possibilities involving a shifting cast of characters than a real person could ever keep up with.

  43. “Does your man judge the manner in which you masturbate, by hating on the special candles you bought for the event, not to mention that old sweatshirt of his you keep nearby for such occasions.”

    Hmm…what if it’s not HIS old sweatshirt that she’s using? And what women bother with candles when masturbating, as masturbating is generally quick fix? Not to shame the women who do (whatever works), but it’s not a standard…

    • Candles are too much work. I’m not sure why they would be included in the event anyway. Definitely not standard practice.

  44. Can’t recommend this essay highly enough — hope Prof Duff will expand it for this site.

    “Confession, sexuality & pornography as sacred language. by Brian Duff
    http://sex.sagepub.com/content/13/6/685.full.pdf+html
    Abstract by Brian Duff
    This article explores the connection between religious and sexual sources of personal meaning. It revisits the analyses of modern sexuality offered by Michel Foucault and Catharine MacKinnon to argue that an understanding of the role of sexuality in religious confessional discourse sheds new light on the role of pornography in contemporary culture. Pornography can be understood as a popular discourse with effects analogous to the elite discourse, rooted in confession, examined by Foucault. This analysis reveals ways that Foucault’s attention to religious texts might shed more direct light on lived sexualities, and the relationship between sexuality, spirituality and notions of the sacred in contemporary culture.

  45. I just want to say brava to all the pro-masturbation women on the thread. Stereoyypes aren’t not very useful here and you have done good work dispelling them. And more than that your anti-judgmental attitude is a breath of clean, fresh air too.

    • You are welcome Jim. I don’t judge for masturbation, but I ask to not be judged in return. A lot of women are starting to discover porn for themselves, and those who use it are beginning to openly admit it. I would be a hypocrite if I judged my boyfriend for using porn, but it would be my hope that men will be accepting of women that enjoy porn on their own as well.

  46. wellokaythen says:

    She’s lucky to be married to a self-starter who’s willing to get up early to start his day, and someone able to entertain himself…. : – )

    Seriously, though, there is another possibility about why she’s concerned. It could be that she would be willing to have sex with him in the morning but he masturbates instead, so she’s feeling like he’s choosing porn over her, or she’s feeling like she’s getting left out of his sex life. Maybe he doesn’t know that she’s available in the mornings if he’s in the mood for sex, in which case she should talk to him about it. This could be a case of crossed signals.

    It could also be, from her perspective, that he’s seldom in the mood when she’s interested in sex, but then he wakes up early to masturbate, so it feels to her like he’s choosing masturbation over sex with her. Those two are not mutually exclusive, but she may be getting mixed messages if he turns her down but makes time to masturbate to porn.

    The fact that she would write in to perfect strangers to ask why married men masturbate suggests that she needs to ask *him* why he does it that way. As She Said points out, best to do it in the spirit of curiosity and not immediate judgment. Best to approach it with the strategy of making the couple’s sex life better and exploring what each other likes.

    I second He Said’s point that marriage doesn’t transform a masturbating man into something else just because he’s in a committed relationship. Continuing to “consume porn” does not necessarily mean that he’s not committed or that he’s substituting a thing for his wife, though it would be most constructive for the relationship if it’s negotiated in the context of the couple’s sex life.

    A tiny disagreement with He Said, though. Not every robustly sexual husband masturbates to visual images. Some of them read erotica or just use their unaided imaginations. Doesn’t anyone daydream anymore? (Nothing wrong with using visual stimulation, I’m just saying that not everyone does every time.)

    • married man says:

      Good point! I don’t think you can “transform a masturbating man” into anything except, eventually, a corpse. We all just are and do.

    • Random_Stranger says:

      “masturbating man” -redundancy

      • wellokaythen says:

        I don’t think ALL men or all married men masturbate and/or view porn. I just think that those who don’t are in a small enough minority that it makes more sense to be surprised to find those who *don’t* than those who *do*. That is, if we’re going to make assumptions or expectations about it in the first place, which I’m not sure we should.

      • To be fair, one of my friends once had sex with a man she knew who prided himself on never watching porn and never masturbating.

        She said the sex was so fast she wasn’t even sure it happened. No foreplay, over in a minute. And it was not his first time or anything.

        I know correlation does not prove causation, but I think I’ll take a masturbating man over a non-masturbating man any day.

  47. Fleurette says:

    Ugh I wouldn’t want my husband around while I watch porn most the time its for myself…I mean sometimes watch it together to discuss new sex ideas…but he can have is alone tim I can have mine and the bigger question is WHY does she care or is bothered by his porn watching. I’m not saying or belittling her feelings here, I just think they need to be addressed more than his actions…

  48. The style of marriage plays a big role in frequency of sex. If it’s ‘traditional’ where the woman works outside the house and also does all the housekeeping and child-rearing, then obviously she’s not going to have energy for sex. If you’re in a more contemporary marriage with fairly even division of household and child-related tasks, then what you have is a miscommunication issue. But I know a few men who think they’re in a contemporary marriage, but actually aren’t doing their share from what I can observe.

    • research proves that on average men and women do the same amount of work when paid and unpaid hours are added up.

      So tired of this myth.

      • There’s also the fact that comparing jobs can be silly, eg a person working as a roofer will drain their energy extremely fast in tropical climates in summer vs office work. Comparing jobs by hours alone won’t work very well, there are unique levels of physical n mental effort needed, even at home doing the gardening wears me out 2-3 quicker than house-cleaning does in summer due to having litres of sweat pour out vs air conditioned interior of house. My stamina in outdoor work doubles to triples during winter.

        This argument doesn’t always work in a man’s favour though, it depends on the couple and they need to work it all out. Looking after a kid from what I see in others looks like a very frustrating, mentally n physically demanding job but some jobs the breadwinner might do in traditional setups could be far more draining. Effort needs to be valued, not just time basically, even risk comes into play for those working dangerous jobs or those working jobs that are 12 hour long, 2 week shifts on the mines where they are away from “civilization”, that is hugely taxing on energy and by the time they get home I’d say many want to chill out n recharge.

        • married man says:

          Unless you depend on the garden for food, not just enjoy it, isn’t gardening a hobby? No matter how much effort you put into it? Or would someone whose hobby was model trains or online games get much sympathy if they were too worn out from those to have energy for sex? Not specifying any genders here.

          If you run a small business and depend on that income, not just enjoy it, to provide for your family… isn’t that pretty damn stressful? And stressful in a way that keeping a house clean or having dinner ready in the evening just isn’t?

          • Well the grass here grows very quick, people mow about once a week for a few hours unless you want to have snakes in your backyard. I live in one of the wettest parts of Australia, even saw the 3rd most deadly snake the other day 1m from me :S, so mowing is a neccessity. I have to mow later today as we’ve just had 1meter/3foot of rain this month alone so the grass is growing like crazy. Then there are repair jobs to do and various other yard work like pressure cleaning the concrete as they are full of mold, cleaning external windows n trims as they are filthy. The work can quickly add up and that’s before actually having a garden. There is also a hell of a lot of inside work to be done but the other occupants here are in their relax mode so I’ma be crackin whips later since the house needs to be top-bottom cleaned.

            My dad did the outside work + quite a bit of the inside work + quite a lot of the cleaning, mum stayed at home to look after us until we were old enough for school and then she went back to work, I guess I took on some of his traits as I can become quite an addict to cleaning. I find the key is to get the house to a level where only a few hours of maintenance are needed by a few people on a weekend, and I am always learning how to do things faster to speed it up.

    • Donna, you raise two points which reinforce my own belief that men and women are, in fact, different. Not in a universal, no-exceptions kind of way, but ways where men and women tend to be different in pretty consistent ways.

      1. Men are more likely to still want sex when tired than women. It’s not that men don’t get tired, but the threshold for “not enough energy for sex” is different. It’s like there’s a separate reserve tank of energy for sex, even if it’s just the low-energy kind, that men are more likely to have and use than women.

      2. Women often judge whether men are doing “their fair share” based on their own standards, which are often more demanding than men’s. For example, if a woman can’t tolerate an unmade bed, but her man can, then if she makes it every day, that’s really her doing something for herself, not doing something for both of them that they both need and he’s a flake on. Such minor differences pile up, so the woman can end up doing a lot that the man considers to be for herself (not his responsibility), but if she thinks they’re necessities, she resents him for not pitching in. Then, when she’s too tired from all the housework to have sex, he gets to resent her for not pitching in more to their sex life.

      • “2. Women often judge whether men are doing “their fair share” based on their own standards, which are often more demanding than men’s. For example, if a woman can’t tolerate an unmade bed, but her man can, then if she makes it every day, that’s really her doing something for herself, not doing something for both of them that they both need and he’s a flake on. Such minor differences pile up, so the woman can end up doing a lot that the man considers to be for herself (not his responsibility), but if she thinks they’re necessities, she resents him for not pitching in. Then, when she’s too tired from all the housework to have sex, he gets to resent her for not pitching in more to their sex life.”

        A massive hell yeah to this one, if her standard on cleaning etc is much higher then who is to say she is right? If SHE is so bothered by the housework whilst his level is still acceptable, then the extra work she does should never be used for trying to assert her partner doesn’t do enough around the house. Don’t make more work for yourself and then use that to be resentful of him. (genders can be flipped depending on individual relationships for fairness:P)

        • the only thing I can think is that for some people it’s not always the woman with a higher standard and this kind of resentment really adds up. If person A hates clutter and person B doesn’t mind it and always leaves things around even though they know it pisses off person A I can see how person A will be less into romance.
          It’s less sometimes about standards and more about what makes a person crazy and if the partner is being attentive to that. And of course vice versa.
          OR they should save money and get some cleaning help!

          • I agree it’s not *always* the woman being more demanding about tidiness than the man, which is why I (and later Archy) included the disclaimer that I don’t see it as a universal, no-exceptions kind of thing, just one where I’ve witnessed a pretty consistent gender split overall. I assume it also happens in same-sex relationships a lot, but for hetero marriage, I don’t think it’s a balanced distribution by gender.

            If person A hates clutter and person B doesn’t mind it and always leaves things around even though they know it pisses off person A I can see how person A will be less into romance.

            True, but that framing pretty heavily favors person A, as though they’re always in the right. It’s just as true from person B’s perspective that it pisses them off that they’re expected to waste so much time and energy on what, to them, is an acceptable amount of clutter, and that when person A chooses to expend energy reducing it, they mark it on the scorecard as doing something “for everybody”, when it’s really just for themselves.

            Furthermore, if it’s the man who thinks the woman is a slob and doesn’t pitch in enough on housekeeping, I’d still wager that his sex drive will be less diminished than a woman in the same position, in a variation on Point #1 in my comment above at 4:21pm. 🙂

            I agree that rather than mope around resenting each other or letting it affect the sex life, the ideal solution is to communicate, be attentive to each other, and find ways to make it work, whether through compromise or saving up to pay for help. On paper, it’s always easy.

      • married man says:

        I agree. I’ve asked my wife to stop doing my laundry, ironing and that sort of thing and do at my pace when I feel like it. Simply because I’m tired of having her hold it against me in that way.

      • “Men are more likely to still want sex when tired than women. It’s not that men don’t get tired, but the threshold for “not enough energy for sex” is different. It’s like there’s a separate reserve tank of energy for sex, even if it’s just the low-energy kind, that men are more likely to have and use than women.”

        That’s the opposite in my own relationship. When my bf gets stressed or tired like during exams (we are both in grad school), he loses interest in sex, whereas my interest pretty much stays the same (or increases, as I have a tendency to procrastinate using sex). I once thought like you do, about men having more energy for sex, and it basically led to me pressuring my bf for sex because I thought that guys just always wanted sex. So that’s why I tend to hate those generalizations, because if you try to operate based on those generalizations, it just leads to awkward, stressful situations.

    • Soullite says:

      The big problem with that is, if we chip in with childcare, will women really work more outside of the home? Will they actually start pulling their weight on yard work, too? Because the same studies that show women do a lot more of the child rearing also show that men do a lot more of work outside of the home and a lot more work on home upkeep, and that when you add them up, men and women do about the same amount of work.

      Given that, this kind of argument sounds a lot like ‘We’ll give you sex if you agree to shoulder even more of the burden’. Even if that isn’t what you’re actually saying, that’s what it sounds like.

    • Good point Donna,

      Husbands who are lazy (or also overworked outside the home) might want to consider what they are missing out on by not tidying up once in a while.

      ht tp://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/01/work-l-spot-she-will-beg-you-for-more.html

      The contrasting pictures at the bottom of the wife as maid and wife who’s hubby helps really says it all.

      • married man says:

        I hate his L-spot/chore-play stuff. I’m supposed to trade chores for sex? And not be insulted and resentful? Because I’m sure she’d be mad as hell if I implied that as the breadwinner I’m trading money for sex. And I wouldn’t blame her.

        For the record, I do my laundry and often the kids and hers as well.

    • “The style of marriage plays a big role in frequency of sex. If it’s ‘traditional’ where the woman works outside the house and also does all the housekeeping and child-rearing, then obviously she’s not going to have energy for sex.”

      This of course implies that ultra-traditional? marriages … woman is a housewife and doesn’t work outside the house … have the highest frequency of sex.

  49. May be because they are sexually bored of their wives.

    • @rapses that goes both ways. do you think it’s exciting for the woman to be with the same man every day of her life? it’s imperative to your marriage that you both work to keep things interesting….

      • Yeah, Stacey. This can happen even within long-term, non-marriage relationships, and it’s happened to me, a woman. It’s easy to get lazy and fall into routines and funks where the grass always seems greener with someone else. It’s easy to get sexually bored of a man (especially after many years), even if you’ve had periods of amazing sex. It’s up to the individuals to spice it up, compromise, or realize that it’s not worth it and not salvageable. Sometimes the couple just doesn’t sexually mesh, other times a little bit of effort makes all the difference. I’ve masturbated because it seemed like too much trouble to wake up my partner in the morning. My man’s masturbated because he didn’t want to get me up in the middle of the night. Works both ways.

        • It happens to everyone because everyone’s brain responds to dopamine. Dopamine is what gives the brain a new high. A new person will always be more interesting because it’s a novel experience and the brain likes variety and new things. Both women and men experience this. It’s a natural function. Like you said, it’s up to the couple to spice things up (oh hey, novel experiences, you are suddenly interesting again) or move on if it’s not possible. Finding new things takes creativity, but it would be worth it to put the effort in.

  50. Hi! Captain Obvious here, Has anybody considered that you can’t f**k your wife like you’re mentally f**king an endless chain of commercially attractive college aged girls on the internet. I mean making love is great but it’s different from f**king.

    • Soullite says:

      No offense, but that sounds like your issue. You can actually do all the things you want to do to that cute little college girl to your wife instead.

      Look, if she won’t let you, I get what you’re saying, mostly (personally, I’d leave someone I’m not sexually compatible with, but I get that sex isn’t that important to everyone). But if it’s your doing because you won’t be open with her, or because you think it’ll somehow ‘dirty’ her, then you’re only letting yourself down. Women aren’t saints, and treating them like they are isn’t the same thing as showing them respect.

      • married man says:

        Oh come on. Do you know his wife? What she enjoys? What he enjoys? What she’s physically capable of? Lots of people develop physical problems as they age. I have and so has my wife. People can also have tastes that diverge as they age. Again, that’s where we are now.

        So, I should leave her and my kids? Because I can assure you, sex is important to me.

        Can I be more open than telling her that I miss having anal sex? And tying each other up? Or telling her that the idea of a threesome turns me on? We weren’t celibate saints. But she’s pretty clearly stated to me that she’s not interested in those things anymore.

        What is with the glib responses here. Openness only goes so far, and leaving isn’t a realistic option for many men for many reasons.

        I apologize for venting in response to your post. It certainly isn’t the only, or worst, or most confusing example. I just continues to strike me how many responses to men (many of whom are likely to be married) seem to not understand the problems of married men.

        • that’s too bad. is monogamy a must? is an open marriage possible?

        • Look, I get that you’re venting, and you have every right to be resentful – nobody likes a bait and switch. I’m against the entire idea of marriage in no small part because I think it makes people take their mates for granted. They let themselves go, they stop making sure that their spouse is happy, and they generally just stop doing all the little things that made the relationship work in the first place.

          But I have to disagree on leaving not being an option. Just because something has a cost doesn’t mean it isn’t an option. So you like sex, but decided that keeping your family together, your career, your standing in the community, and/or your bank account was more important. That’s an understandable choice to make, but it was a choice.

          • “I’m against the entire idea of marriage in no small part because I think it makes people take their mates for granted. They let themselves go, they stop making sure that their spouse is happy, and they generally just stop doing all the little things that made the relationship work in the first place.”

            To be fair, that doesn’t really sound like that’s happening here. It doesn’t seem like his wife is just letting things fall by the wayside, but just that things change and tastes change. (and bodies change – I think there’s got to be a certain point at which the anal sex just can’t happen anymore)

            But I agree with Stacey above, if the sex has become so unfulfilling because of these reasons that a partner in a relationship is suffering, I would suggest an open relationship. I don’t know how many couples it really works for, but I hope that if I am ever married and the sex dies off or something, I would be comfortable enough with the idea.

            • married man says:

              If you don’t know how often an open relationship works, why would you suggest it? Have you tried one? It doesn’t sound like you’ve ever been married.

              No offense intended, because you come across as a nice, open-minded sort of person. But, if you’ve never been married, why are you giving advice about something you’ve never experienced?

              • People give advice about things they haven’t experienced all the time, I’m certainly not the first. Why would I give advice? Because I felt sympathetic about your situation and wanted to offer options that maybe you hadn’t considered.

                Whatever, my advice was basically Dan Savage’s, so if you are looking to hear the same advice from someone with more experience, I would suggest his column. He has said the same thing to many people in your situation. And no one knows how often an open relationship works because people are very secretive about it, there’s a social stigma to not being monogamous in a relationship.

                I wish you the best in your relationship and hope that everything works out for you.

          • married man says:

            I didn’t say leaving wasn’t an option, but that it wasn’t a realistic option. By which I mean, I have a business in the town where we live. My wife would prefer to live closer to her parents, about a day’s drive. So, I could leave her, but I’m tied to this town. If she picks up and moves home, as I’d expect her too, there go my kids.

            I completely agree with you, it is a choice. It’s my choice. I’m not thrilled with it, but it’s the least bad one. And maybe, if we work on things they will improve. Who knows?

            You’re also right about the venting. I was certainly in a foul mood the other day and did not mean to single your posting out. Reading through all these comments the abundance of easy answers really struck a nerve.

    • @budmin – dude you need to be more honest and open with your wife about what you both like. you are depriving/neglecting yourself (and HER) if you don’t!

    • Sounds like someone hasn’t communicated properly with their wife.

      • Yeah, I’ve heard a lot about men not being ‘mind readers.’ Often, women aren’t either. How am I supposed to know that you want me to dress like a school girl and beg you to spank my ass if you don’t ask me? If you want to do something, find a way to ask her. Yes, there’s a difference between f**king and making love, but do you really think that every woman wants ‘making love’ every single time? Women want to f**k and to be f**ked too. We also want to make love. We also want quickies and stress relief sex. As much as I love making love, I don’t want that type of sex to be EVERY SINGLE encounter.

        • I can admit to having a Madonna/Whore complex but at the same time,  porn has made me a better orgasm hunter, less needy and  longer lasting. My GF hates that it takes so long for me to pop but would she be happier if I were an incompetent minute man?  

          • Well I wonder how many men out there do a have a Madonna/Whore complex, and how that affects their sexual relationship with their partner(s). Because some women who are a bit more open minded or understand their sexuality might suffer in a relationship with a man that has a Madonna/Whore complex. I know I would.

            Lasting too long can be just as much of a pain (literally) as being an incompetent minute man if you’re not regularly lubing up. She might have reached her peak, but that feeling can be cut short if you keep going at it – she’ll be incredibly sensitive and at that point she’s likely to stop producing her own natural lubrication. It’ll feel raw and painful, and that can really put a damper on the mood. Make sure you’re regularly lubing up, and she’ll be happier. Seriously, Astroglide has been my best friend, because my boyfriend is a marathon man too.

        • Exactly. People like variety, not just men. I would get bored with a Marvin Gaye kind of session if that was all that was offered, and vice versa. It would seem to me that these sexual issues stem from a sex life that’s stuck in a rut and no one has communicated what would help them get out of it. Instead resentment builds because both are dissatisfied and sex becomes more infrequent. Just communicate for god’s sake, try to get to know each other’s sexuality a little more.

  51. Can we please steer away from the idea that women only think of their SO during their alone time? Maybe some women do, but A LOT don’t. Women have active imaginations and many also use visual aids. His sweater? Are you serious??? LOL. It’s ok for women to be thinking about and looking at other men, just as it is for men to be doing the same (and I’m pretty sure most do).

    And can we do away with the phrase “men are visual creatures” already? It implies somehow that “women are not visual creatures”. Which is baloney. My friends and I check out every (EVERY) guy that walks by discreetly, we can all appreciate images of a nice bare chest, butt, shoulders, legs, arms…. oh yes, and face! 😉 My friends forward pics & vids of guys, and shamelessly objectify men all the time (not that it’s a good thing). Women are sexual animals, too, not angels or delicate flowers.

    And evolution has actually programmed females to be visual. After all, females have much more invested in pregnancy than males and have been programmed to scrutinize the male form for relatively fit, young, strong, well-fed, healthy/handsome bodies that indicate quality of genes and access to resources. Males have less invested in pregnancy and are programmed to pretty much mate with any same-species female that isn’t diseased and has a patent orifice (preferably fertile, but not totally necessary since the point is to spread the seed as far as possible – taking risks with high output, low investment, high gain).

    I think this notion of females not being visual has more to do with social constructs that have existed for much of history, shaming females of sexuality (or “protecting” them from brazen behavior that could get them in “trouble” before the advent of the pill) while condoning male sexuality. With the sexual revolution, you have and will continue to see women expressing their desire for the visual, too. There are far more women watching porn now (and openly admitting it) than there were 60 years ago? Why could that be? Is it because their genes morphed, giving them the ability to become “more visual” like men, or is it because it is more socially acceptable?

    • Hear, hear. I check out men all the time, watch porn, and masturbate on a regular basis. And I’m not always thinking of my boyfriend when I do so. Sometimes, but more often I use porn of indulge in a fantasy, like men do. I don’t understand why people are still holding onto the notion that women aren’t visual creatures. Why wouldn’t we be?

    • Agreed whole-heartedly.

      I think female arousal can be more complicated than male (like the studies they have done where women watched porn and had physical reactions, but said they weren’t aroused), but that doesn’t mean visual stimuli doesn’t play a role.

  52. I wonder how many married men use porn as a visual aid whilst thinking mostly of their partner?

    • My guess is a lot. For me at least, porn doesn’t involve much thinking about how we’d connect as complete people, share each others interests, how we’d make each other laugh, etc. To the extent I project any of that into what’s going on, it’s usually my wife that I’m imagining, either as if she were inhabiting that body, or enjoying it with me. In an indirect sense, I occasionally have the pleasure of *actually* doing that because we’ve been known to watch porn together and have found types that appeal to both of us at the same time, so it’s not actual multi-partner sex, but there we are enjoying each other and images of another person or people at the same time.

      One of the things I wonder about when I hear people express the feeling the porn is like cheating, is how – or whether – they manage not to feel threatened by old-fashioned fantasy-only masturbation. I don’t know how typical I am, but if I’m in fantasy-only mode, I’m a lot more likely to actually form a scenario in my head about someone I know and make it not so much a strictly visual thing. I still don’t consider that cheating (nor do I if/when my wife does the same thing), but as far as thinking about connecting with someone else goes, I do that more in unassisted fantasy than I do with porn. I don’t get how someone who feels betrayed by porn wouldn’t feel betrayed by fantasies. Or maybe they are and just leave out that part? I can see the logic of objecting to porn for other reasons (even if I don’t agree with it), but the betrayal angle always sounds to me like an objection to masturbation generally.

      • Joanna Schroeder says:

        I might actually feel betrayed MORE by fantasies than porn… I mean, if my husband is fantasizing about the nanny (theoretical, we don’t have a nanny) I might be bummed about that and prefer he be watching some standard Internet porn.

        Though really, both seem a little silly.

        • Yeah, that’s what I would think, too, though for all I know, maybe there are lots of people whose fantasies about other people are more detailed with porn than without. Not me. Aside from some common courtesy like not yelling out, “I’m thinking of George Clooney right now!”, I don’t mind what fantasy is floating her boat as long as I get to be the captain. On the other hand, if it’s “I’m thinking of Reese Witherspoon right now!”, that would be a piece of information I’d like to know, since it would float both our boats.

        • I think people need to ask themselves “Why am I so hurt by his/her fantasies?”. They might find out the truth is trickier than they think, write down the answers and they might find it’s core beliefs that are negative about THEMSELVES. Find out those negative core beliefs, do your best to change them into something positive and your relationship will be far stronger.

          • Joanna Schroeder says:

            Damn, Archy, that was incredibly insightful!! I love that. I may steal it for a blog answer someday. Don’t worry, I’ll credit you 😉

            • haha thank-you. I do my best to think of why why why, I don’t like the automatic answers, I NEEED to know why people do something and have a large desire to understand what motivates that jealousy for instance. If you have some illness that causes wounds on the skin, you don’t cure it by putting on bandaids, you need to find out the root problem!

    • married man says:

      I don’t know how many. I’d guess few. I don’t think I ever have used porn while thinking mostly of my partner. Are there any comments here from married men jumping up to take credit for using it this way?

  53. Approximately the same reason married women masturbate using toys and mental stimuli.

  54. “Does your man judge the manner in which you masturbate, by hating on the special candles you bought for the event, not to mention that old sweatshirt of his you keep nearby for such occasions?”

    Oh my. That is incredibly cheesy. Apparently I’m a dude, because I use porn, not candles, for masturbating. And old sweatshirts? That idea just makes me deeply uncomfortable. Honestly, I generally liked this, but that was too painful of a sentence for me to ignore.

    • We’re both men apparently, Artemis. I use porn more often than my boyfriend. Candles? I don’t think my masturbation is THAT fancy. And I agree, I’m uncomfortable with the whole old sweatshirt thing. When I get off I like escapism and variety too…

      • Candles? How does that work? Don’t they soften and moosh out of shape?

        • Well I can’t think of any woman that would actually stick a candle up her vagina… that just sounds stupid. I’m pretty sure that would screw her up a bit. I think we’re supposed to light the candles when we give ourselves some lovin’, for smelling purposes I guess, but frankly that seems like too much work. I’m not entirely sure why candles are involved in the process anyway.

  55. squidward says:

    ‘And tell him to stop beating around the bush.’

    Mixed message?

  56. Porn is about fantasy, and masturbation is about release. Men naturally crave variety, and a married man who’s committed to being faithful might need some form of sexual outlet that satisfies the craving for something “new” without actually cheating. No matter how sexy the wife, nor how hot your sex life, he’ll sometimes seek other body types or appearances when enjoying visual stimuli. Don’t take it personally.

    • And women have our own forms of escape and release… All my girlfriends are passing around 50 Shades of Grey right now… And their husbands are deeply grateful!

      • wellokaythen says:

        I read in the _Wall Street Journal_ recently that erotica or “romantica” novels are a huge portion of eBook sales, something like 40% of all the books that women consume electronically today. (No one sees the cover or title of the book you’re reading, so there’s a little more privacy if you read it in public.) If you include reading as visual stimulation, then women certainly can be at least as “visual” as men can be.

        • “Men naturally crave variety”

          So do many, many women, myself included. As I said below, no matter how good your man is at sex, it’s natural to be curious and desire other types of sex/fantasy/penises/genders/bodies. Fantasies, erotica, porn, and books are a great way to get that.

    • I think it would be fun to try role play, I’m not sure if it’s always necessary to go elsewhere. I saw a couple on TV who’d try this and it looked FUN!

  57. Interesting perspective on a subject many try to stay away from. I completely agree with most of the arguments here. It is such a natural thing that people should not make a big deal about it.

  58. Fleurette says:

    I love porn. I’m a single gal and it helps me relieve my anxiety. Its not all distorted and fucked up, I mean there is so much out there so you need to keep in mind what you are looking for. I’ve like it since I was 16 and I don’t have a problem with that.

    • The Blurpo says:

      trust me, you are perfectly healthy. I also know personally women and girls who watch at porn for masturbation purposes. Yes some women watch porn to, some women actually enjoy porn.
      The idea that women are somehow asexual and make sacrifices GIVING or trading sex for benefits with men its a crock. Women enjoy sex, and women can be exactly “crazy” like guys on this topic.

      I think its more cultural, were the woman is the angel of the house and she is pure and holy (whatever). But thats all bull. And this kind of social pressure leads to various form of anxiety.
      As you said, you use porn for fighting your anxiety, well I use porn for stress release and entertainment.
      I also watch various movies, like Star Wars or stargate, but that doesent mean Im tired of my life/marriage/engagement/ect. It only means I want to be entertained. No more no less….

  59. The real question is why don’t married women also watch porn? Or if porn isn’t for you, hopefully you’re at least masturbating. Good god.

    • I would agree. If a guy gets up in the morning to masturbate, why isn’t she doing the same? Perhaps she should invest in a toy and give herself some loving.

      • If they’re both horny, why don’t they have sex with each other? Forgive me, I’m just not understanding

        • Sometimes I want to masturbate, sometimes I want to have sex. The two are not always interchangeable. Sex for me is about pleasure and connecting with my bf. Masturbating is about orgasm.

          I think this is generally true for people in relationships, but I can only speak for myself.

  60. Well, if a man’s married, he’s likely to rarely be having sex. Why is this not clear?

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      LOTS of married men will argue that, pjay!

      But I’m deeply sorry you’re experience isn’t good.

      • And I would guess many many more married men will hear what he’s saying and agree. What is the big deal about this? It is allegedly a men’s site, isn’t it? All the PC bullshit about women are just as horny, married sex is awesome, etc… Come on. Sure some women are and some men are happy. I’d guess most of the rest of us are in a situation summed up pretty well by his response.

        At least that’s how it is for me, and for all of my married friends who’ve ever had anything to say on the subject.

        Maybe I shouldn’t generalize, but I’ve been there on the couch at 630 am doing the same thing. And for the same reason.

        • I really didn’t mean to minimize your experience.

          I think this idea that once you get married you stop having sex is total bullshit, and I really wish we could start some sort of revolution… Anyone have any ideas?

          Personally, I think it starts way back in our culturing around sex, the amount of shame we put on women for it, while still glorifying it. I think the sex-positive feminists are probably on something of the right track, but I wonder if there’s a way to do what they’re doing in a more inclusive manner…

          Hmm I might be formulating a piece here in my mind…

          Thanks for the earnest feedback, 6:30.

        • I have never, and I mean never, heard of a married person – man or woman – tell of a sex life that went from relatively infrequent early in the marriage to increasing frequency as the marriage lasted longer. It’s never, “I remember on our week-long honeymoon we had sex once, but now ten years later, we’re up to daily sex and more than once in a day is common!” The only man I can imagine arguing pjay’s tongue-in-cheek point would be one without young children, relatively newly married (less than 5 years), and whose wife is still in her early 20’s or 30’s.

          Of course, “rarely” could mean different things to different people, and compared to single life, I still get more sex as a married man because I was not a “player”, but I think the men who would argue with pjay’s point would be fewer than those who would relate to it. Also, “rarely” doesn’t always mean “not enough”, if both partners have matching libidos and are content with infrequent sex.

          True or not, I think pjay was tossing off a one-liner, rather than giving a serious answer, because of course single guys toss off to porn as much or more as us married guys, but they’re less likely to have someone “catching” them and feeling hurt enough to write a letter about it. Many women seem to think masturbation is a “not enough sex” habit, which it isn’t. It may contribute, but many a sexually satisfied man will still masturbate, and porn is just a masturbation aid, like a toy or a fantasy that’s entirely in one’s head. You know the old chicken nugget commercial with the line, “Parts is parts”? Well…’batin is ‘batin.

          • Joanna Schroeder says:

            I agree, Marcus, about the masturbation not being about not getting enough… The woman asking the question really seems to be saying that she would LIKE to be involved with it, and it sounds to me like SHE is the one who isn’t getting enough.

            I think you’re right on though, Marcus.

            I must say, if I were feeling sassier when I answered this question originally, I would’ve said, “Why do you disappear into the bathtub with 50 Shades of Grey every evening after the kids go to bed?” because that’s the female equivalent.

            For any man whose wife isn’t feeling the mood as often… I suggest buying that book.

          • wellokaythen says:

            Dammit, now I’ll never look at McNuggets the same way. Curse you. : – )

        • And if they got frequent sex from wife, they’d stop? I doubt it.

    • laughed out loud at that pjay

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