“When I check out women, what is really going on with me? Is it just normal because I’m a heterosexual guy that likes women?” Jayson Gaddis explores objectification.
I get this question a lot and it’s one I’ve explored for years. “Why do we (men) objectify women so much?” Sometimes men will follow that question up with “And, what can I do about it?” (sure, women objectify men too, but that’s not what this post is about).
I posted this question on my facebook wall and got quite the range of responses. I included a few short responses below and the longer, stand-out responses I have included at the bottom of this post if you are interested.
A few men also asked me to define objectification, which to me seems prudent. So, we’ll start there.
Defining Objectification in the context of this blog post:
Objectify: To stare, gawk, or check out women and their bodies and body parts. To see them as objects (instead of real people) and to think of them in a sexual way.
A guy named Alex added,
“I think what we are calling “objectification” is its own line of development and that “picturing myself fucking her,” is a limited sliver of what the interpenetrating faculties which cause a man’s bodymind to go there can actually unfold into.”
In other words, Alex is pointing out that how we define objectification will depend on where we are psychologically/spiritually/developmentally in life.
Here are some classic male responses to the question that I have received from the boys and men I’ve worked with for over twenty years:
- It’s biology
- Because we just want to have sex
- Because I’m a guy
- I’m an animal, I’m supposed to want to have sex with every woman I see.
- I’m just horny
- It’s normal male behavior
- I don’t objectify women…
Then, here are some more sophisticated responses I got on facebook:
- “To avoid the terror of annihilation — being reabsorbed back into the feminine. To avoid kicking up unhealed dependencies on mother.” –RF
- “I objectify women cause it’s “safer”. I receive an immediate gratification, a thrill if you will, albeit superficial, it does keep me safe at least for a time, (and I will jump in with Richard here) from annihilation — from a treacherous road of intimacy and vulnerability — the risk of being really seen and connected with– or actually rejected!! Yes, that’s it — it’s an avoidance of rejection… Intimacy takes a lot of work, courage and commitment. Objectifying is an “easy” road out of the potential of rejections — at least for the moment. A slice of breathing room if you will, though illusory and ultimately unfulfilling and painful — it’s still or at least has been a strange sort of unconscious haven for me…” –R.
- “I’m stuck in the belief that that feminine essence is outside of myself. I’m alienated from the larger truth of my Completeness as a human being. That sexy, juicy, radiant paradise is not inside myself, therefore it’s an object I obsess about outside myself and I treat it like entertainment. This insight leads me to believe I haven’t spent enough time balancing the relationship with My (whole) Self.”
- “First of all, I love this thread. I feel no shame in my feelings of lust for women. I suppose that if I thought they were ONLY good for sex, that would be an issue. I have an beautiful wife, and I have two daughters. I love women. they are an inextricable part of my life. I love what these women bring to my world. but god, I love looking at women. they’re just amazing. It’s part of my biological make up to think that they’re beautiful. Is that objectifying them? Maybe, maybe not. I just love them. and at some point men will have the same feelings for my daughters. If that comes with a respect for the beautiful people that they are, then I think that lust is part of a beautiful package.” –KB
- My personal response? “Because I’m avoiding something.” I unpack this down below…
Is there any truth to the first lists above? Sure, and in my experience men who have done personal work on themselves and have the ability to self-reflect and take ownership have more insightful responses. They know there’s more going on in the picture.
So when I check out women, what is really going on with me? Is it just normal because I’m a heterosexual guy that likes women?
I took this question to my personal therapy many times. I was never satisfied with my therapist’s response, so then I took it to the meditation cushion and my male friends. I contemplated it for many months and had many, many discussions with my male friends and mentors. Our aim was to get underneath to the deeper truth going on.
Here’s what I/we came up with:
1. Nature
Yes indeed men want to procreate and plant our seed, so naturally we look for mates constantly. True. Biology is indeed a factor. We are indeed animals. It’s in our DNA to want to have sex and be sexual with other human beings. We will objectify the sex we are attracted to and it’s perfectly normal and okay. In fact, it can even be glorious, alive, fun, and enjoyable.
2. Nurture
The next thing to note is that men are conditioned to objectify women. It’s ain’t just nature working here. In men’s culture, it’s acceptable to objectify women. Men bond around it.
And, the less developed a man is, the more animal-like and unconscious his behavior will be toward women. In other words, for guys who have very little ability to self reflect or a limited self-awareness, they live seeing the entire world as object where they can get something, rather than seeing object as a relational interplay.
For example, marketing companies prey on men who are stuck in their animal brain. We are taught over and over to see women as objects. I can barely go on any male-focused website now without being hit at some point by a tiny, physically attractive, disproportioned airbrushed woman looking at me. Someone took the Hooters business model and applied it everywhere to everything. Seriously.
And, it’s pervasive and all around us. Notice where men buy stuff, there are often photos of women present.
3. Pain Avoidance
Here comes the deeper cut. I objectify women because I feel a hole in me and I want to fill that hole. For example, I notice that I find myself checking out women when I feel like shit. I’m in a funk, bad mood, triggered, and most importantly, disconnected. It happens almost always when I had stuff to feel deep down that I simply didn’t want to feel.
Take R.F.’s comment,
“As I have sat with it a little longer, the simple answer is that I feel it will make me feel better. If i am feeling some sort of unrest within myself, I will seek to get something from “her”, to “suck her beauty” in some way; And that will somehow feed me / nourish me, and help me get me by for a time…”
My own experience?
Yes, I love beautiful women and I appreciate them in an ongoing way. This experience feels good in me and I feel alive. I do this with anyone I find beautiful, from a small child, to men and women, to folks that are eighty years old. I appreciate their human beauty and specific characteristics. And, when it doesn’t feel good or it feels off, that’s my cue that something else is going on.
When I used porn semi-frequently, I was doing so whenever I was disconnected from myself. When I’ve had lovers in the past, I would be most interested in sex with them when I was feeling flat and in a funk. I had no tools back then to feel my pain, so sex most often helped take the edge off a little bit and it helped me connect to myself again and even connect to my partner again. Similarly, one of the main reasons why so many men surf porn is because it’s a temporary stress reliever. It’s medication.
Since I used to suck at feeling my feelings and I was emotionally constipated (due to my conditioning), I resorted to the limited tool belt I had; stuffing, distracting, avoiding, masking, hiding, masturbation, fucking, or projecting it outward through blame.
So objectifying women is temporarily helpful for me when I want relief, even though it’s comes at a cost and it ultimately doesn’t help me in the long term.
I also noticed that it ultimately doesn’t feel good. It certainly doesn’t feel good for women (I’ve asked many times). In relationship workshops I lead, women often give the men feedback about how painful it is to be on the receiving end of their stares, looks, peeks, and glances. Women know when a man is checking them out. While some women report they are okay with it and even like it, the majority of the women I interface with are not cool with dudes staring at their body alone. They also want to be seen for who they really are.
How to do this differently
Explore the cost. Remember that objectifying women isn’t bad or wrong. It just comes at a cost. It’s up to each of us to figure out what that cost is. Get honest about the cost. For me it is just medication and food for my ego.
When I’m in pain or avoiding feeling something, I default to habits such as objectifying women. That doesn’t mean it’s okay or not okay. You be the judge of whether it works for you and your relationships to women. Ask the women in your life and get a range. Ask mature women, older women, younger women, and ask your partner. Ask them what the impact of what your behavior is like for them.
Get connected. When I objectify women, it’s because I feel disconnected, less present, less in my heart, and less in my body. The remedy is simple now. Get back in my body and heart. Connect to me, all of me. This requires I meditate, connect to someone I love and slow down. It requires I feel what is going on deep down inside of me.
Appreciation. Once I get connected to me again, I notice how I can appreciate a beautiful woman and I’m in my body, connected to my heart. It has a totally different quality. She feels it and I feel it.
What about you? What is your relationship to objectification?
♦◊♦
Here are a few other unedited shares from the awesome facebook thread:
D. said…
“Why do I “objectify”? It’s a loaded term for me as well and I’ve felt a good deal of shame about it for a while. Still do to an extent. I like to think of it as a form of appreciation. Appreciation for a woman’s physical traits that for whatever reason I’m energetically drawn to. Yes, I can “lose myself” in it for a while, and I’m noticing a little charge for me there as I say that. Like its easier for me to shame myself there before anyone else can (not saying they will… just my projection). And yeah, what I’ve found works best for me so far is being a yes to everything in my own experience and in what’s happening AND at some point in my development simply realizing that objectification is not enough for me. I love appreciating and experiencing another human being for more than just her physical traits. What I prefer physically doesn’t in itself inspire me to want to connect with a woman, and doesn’t in itself have me feel attracted. The attraction and inspiration simply are there or not independent of how she looks.”
J said…
“If I may add… we objectify women for the same reason women objectify men: to be able to see our personal fantasies in them.”
G.C. said…
“it happens in the hungry ghost realm I live in most of the time…..for me its about seeking approval, biological instincts, unmet needs, and grasping for wholeness outside myself…….the most fun and exciting and ego gratifying times in my life have been when i have embraced it and danced with it and gave myself permission to play with the illusions, projections, feelings, etc……..”
M. said…
“When I objectify a woman, I am not ignoring that there is more than her body, I am just filling up the rest of my perception of her with my fantasy of her.”
S.P (a woman) said…
“I don’t know any women who don’t like being appreciated! (I consider “admired and desired” as part of appreciation) as long as it is grounded in reality, not based purely on projection, and from a place of wholistic seeing. Some women feel scared of it, or long for it but don’t know how to take it in, or push it away because it has come with strings in the past, or push it away because it comes with strings in the present (the other person’s need for approval, the other person’s need for something to be fulfilled in them etc.). But underneath all this, I believe it is safe to say that all women (and in fact all people!) have a basic human desire and need to be wanted, appreciated, and loved! Some generalizations are just true! 
”
JB said…
“The thing I just discovered was that the women I would typically objectify were the hardest ones for me to understand completely. They seem to have the thickest mask which triggered my desire penetrate that mask.
The next thing I noticed was how easily such a mysterious woman could fit into my ideal partner that I subconsciously created as a child. This was my “Fairy Tale Fantasy” about how such an ideal women would behave and believe about herself. Typically, the “exterior beautiful” women would trigger this belief because I had assumed they must be special and I wouldn’t have to completely let go of my fantasy.
My fantasy would then project this image onto her and I would react to that image. The image had a belief that these women would always be honest and had a much higher level of personal integrity than me. That would keep me in a cycle of self judgment in comparison to this belief which triggered me to hide behind my mask even stronger.
The other part was my unwillingness to believe that someone would have good intentions toward me if I had good intentions toward them. That made it easier for me to dismiss their “bad” behavior as being an unintentional mistake. In turn, I could continue to have this running story going on about them that had no foundation in truth simply because of my unwillingness to see past their mask and see them as a real person.
The answer for me was to stop trying to get this woman but use that energy to make myself the best possible me I could become. A me that now has confidence because I am self assured, self respecting, and full of self accepting unconditional love. Part of becoming that man means that I must accept and own the truth of my motives and be willing to see the motives of others. That is when I was finally able to let go of the fantasy and see this woman for who she really is inside.
My biggest life breakthrough and victory came as a result of that growth. Once I saw this woman for her true self and fully let go of my fantasy about her, I no longer felt any desire for her.
As a result, something incredible is happening to me now. Something wonderful has started growing in the void where my fantasy use to live. It’s a genuine curiosity and appreciation for all woman. Especially for all the women who actually live and display their authentic self and freely give their love to all as an expression of their femininity.
I no longer see women as a simple desired object constructed in my fantasy that I need to get, I have only appreciation of all of her (both good and bad). I now know that if I trust myself to drop my mask and reveal all of myself, most women will follow my lead and appreciate me for having the courage to create a safe place for her to let herself go.
I now see these amazing women everywhere in my life where I could not before. The fact is that they have been there all along, providing me their example as living models of what I have been seeking in my life. Until that time, I had never really appreciated them for that love and the joy they bring to my world.
To all of you who have watched me struggle with this, Here is a heart felt thank you for your patients, encouragement, and support for me to let go and wake up.”
V. (a woman) said…
“Love the discussion here. Thanks Jayson. I have a passion for this subject. I believe that society offers to us the message that if there is deep connection or even attraction, then its MUST BE expressed in a romantic manner. Thus “the Romantic Myth”. What this robs us of is experiencing each other deeply, honoring each other as sexual beings, but not having to act on that or “objectify” each other. It is sad when the expression “Just friends” is used. We are robbing each other of the depth of connection that can be experienced in the most honoring way. I especially experience this as a married woman who is open hearted, committed to honoring my husband, and yet have experienced deep, meaningful connection with male friends. I stand strong when romantic feelings are expressed and am not surprised the way our culture programs us. I’ve said, “I do not feel the same way. But I am not running away. I honor your processing of it.” Some have run feeling like there is no room… thus if it can’t be romantic then there is no other option. But the closest friends have processed through what it means to respect, honor and not “objectify” and have a safe place to be. Many of the men I work with love that I can express appreciation and yet never desire… they show up more powerfully in the world walking in a new level of honor for themselves. Also, importantly these relationships are an expansion of the marriage rather than outside of the marriage. This has been a big journey for my husband and I. But as we’ve grown we have learned what loving others can really look like regardless of gender. So the answer to When Harry Met Sally, can men and women be friends without ending up in bed (if there is attraction), the answer is yes. Wisdom, emotional and spiritual maturity, and transparency, all must exist, no doubt. But the safety of rich friendship, without objectification, is such a gift.”
photo of surprised man looking through binoculars: Shutterstock.com.
About Jayson Gaddis
One of the things that makes my blood boil is when men who are much older, married, or on a date with a woman leer at me. This has happened to me almost daily since I was 17 years old. I find them rude, disrepectful, and pathetic. Is it too much to ask to show some respect for your wife/girlfriend/women your age?
“One of the things that makes my blood boil is when men who are much older, married, or on a date with a woman leer at me.”
That sucks, especially those on dates! Single older men too? And do you include older men that check out younger women, or is it specifically that leering/staring too long stuff? Basically, can an older man still find you attractive and admire your beauty if he is single?
I agree, Aya…Isn’t it great when a guy is talking about his lovely wife and 4 wonderful kids while he’s trying to pull you in tighter around the waist when you are posing for photos at an alumni event?
I’ve had that experience though not at at uni.
To expand on something that Archy touched upon – why would the same behaviour be judged so much more harshly when performed by older men? Would that have more to do with what YOU find attractive, rather than what they are doing? Why do you feel that can judge what anyone at any age finds attractive? And as corollary, are you fine with being stared at by young unattached guys?
I’m not defending the behaviour as such – i just want to point out that your reaction seems to be more colored by whether you consider the originator acceptable match, rather than whether the behaviour is inherently wrong in any way. That seems to be somewhat common in discussions of any sort of “creepy” behaviour – all too often that gets translated to “any approach by a person i do not find attractive”. Not that there aren’t creepy behaviours, but that has more to do with whether the person respects your boundaries and wishes after you have made them clear, rather than how attractive you find them to begin with.
As to ‘men on a date with a woman” who obviously stare at another – I’d say that goes beyond objectification, and into basic courtesy territory.
“Objectification” is a magic word. It means whatever the person saying it _wants_ it to mean.
In this instance, it’s used to mean “male attention that I don’t want,” as distinct from male attention you DO want (this is labeled “flirting” and is forgivable as long as the guy is cute enough).
If objectification means ‘thinking of women in a sexual way,’ then not only is it never going away–it’s not even a bad thing. There’s nothing morally wrong with it and nothing to condemn, no matter how hard you try to take offense.
I strongly disagree – objectification has a precise definition. When I talk to a woman as a person, being respectful of her desires and thoughts, while feeling out the possibility of a relationship with her and hoping for a sign she’s interested in me – I’m flirting. If I see a woman on the street and fantasize about having sex with her, with no real thought to her personality but just as an “object” I’d like to have, it’s objectification. It doesn’t mean being attracted to women. Either type of attention can be wanted or unwanted depending on who does it. Flirting from someone undesirable, as opposed to objectification, is gently declined rather than condemned in my experience, because it’s respectful. And as he says, objectifying women isn’t bad or wrong, it just comes at a cost.
By that definition then are women who are passive (would like a guy to ask them out, but won’t make the first move) objectifying men because they choose to fantasize about a relationship rather than actually and respectfully work towards it?
It has a rather precise definition skirted by the discussion in theis article. It’s a term from psychology that means (an infant or young child) is unable to process the autonomy and separateness of those who might meet his needs.
An adult who does it is on the Narcissistic Spectrum.
So no, it’s never ok.
Ya know what makes my blood boil? Women who think they’re so great that men can’t do anything but look at them. I have to tell ya, it’s amazing to me that something as simple as looking at a women has turned into such a heap of crap. Damned if ya do and damned if ya don’t. Why don’t men just gouge their eyes out and cut off their dicks and get it over with?
Okay, I’m gonna put it out there. ( I give it no more then an hour before I get flamed) … Ladies, why do you shave your legs, do your nails, put on makeup, do your hair, wear stacked heels? Why do women spend counless $$ buying clothes, under-garments. As a guy, you sure can’t tell me a thong feels good, does it? Ohhhh, those panty lines …. riiiiight.
How about this, wear signs saying, “only men that I’m interested in are allowed to look.” I have this vision of a women sitting on a park bench pointing at each man that walks by saying “you can look” you can look” you DEFINATELTY can’t look (too old)” You can’t look … ewwww please dont ever even think of looking.”
Ladies, the creeps are far and few between. years ago, when I had money and traveled a lot … I looked at one women in particular. She was stunning, she looked like my wife. What drew me to her was what she was wearing. She had the same appearance (Latina), height, weight and hair. But again, it was what she was wearing….. tight blue jeans, high heel boots, cowl neck sweater and a full length mink coat … she looked hot. Two weeks later, I bought my wife high heel boots, cowl neck sweater, she already had the jeans and of course, the full length mink. 18 years later, she still looks hot. Yeah, I looked at this women but not for the reasons some women in here think we’re looking.
Well let’s see…I just put on make-up, earrings, etc. and a nice dress to out to dinner with my family in a town full of people I don’t know, with probably narry a lesbian in sight. So why did I do it? Because the restaurant is nice and were I to go in jeans and a t-shirt, I’d be out of place. Conforming to societal norms is what people do…and it is a social norm that women wear make-up, wear heels, etc. and when they don’t they are criticized and presumed to be a bit odd. We do it for the exact same reason a man going out to a nice place wears a tie…it’s what you do.
Also, objectification is not being attracted to someone. For goodness sake…women are hot, yeah, I know. I totally get it. And objectification is not all about what a hetero-cis-man may be thinking when he sees an attractive woman. It’s about how objectification is expressed in cultural and societal norms.
And yeah, objectification can happen between any two human beings, but it’s more common in western society for men to objectify women rather than the other way around.
“And yeah, objectification can happen between any two human beings, but it’s more common in western society for men to objectify women rather than the other way around.”
Uh, bullshit. I’d say it happens fairly equally, some men do it over visuals, some women do it over bank accounts. There is a reason the term gold-digger exists, and there is a reason why there are stereotypes of SOME men being only interested in looks or sex.
Maybe it’s more threatening when a stranger who is male stares at a stranger who is female?
I’m 5’7″ and 120 lbs. If a 6’6″ guy who weighs 250 lbs is staring at me, I will get scared.
If I, however, am staring at him, he may also get uncomfortable, but his safety is not likely threatened (And don’t tell me women physically assault men who are strangers to them as often as stranger violence happens man on women. Not a single study shows that to be true)
This is about empathy, pure an simple. You guys ask me ALL THE TIME to have empathy to the way you feel about things. Do the same for us. It makes a LOT of women very uncomfortable to be stared at. It doesn’t matter if you think you have the right to make us uncomfortable. You may have the RIGHT, legally, to do so. But I have the right to say publicly that it bothers me, and that it hurts us and scares us.
Nobody here gets to decide for me whether something hurts or scares me.
But you do get to decide whether you will excuse making women uncomfortable, either for yourself or for others.
Archy, I highly doubt you ever stare at women in a way that makes them uncomfortable. You’re a very empathetic person.
Well I am 6’6 and 300lbs or so, if YOU stared at me I’d get uncomfy but that happens with everyone, I’m actually more afraid of women than they are of me probably although recently that is changing as I gain more confidence. Not to minimize your fear but just highlighting how us big guys can be afraid of women, not because I think you’ll beat me up (though most strangers I am cautious with with regard to weapons), but because I think you may throw verbal abuse that hurts like hell. Sometimes I’d prefer physical abuse to a verbal abuse, bruises heal up and I can at least try defend myself but words can sting like crazy. I think people underestimate the fear bigger people can have, but it’s natural to be afraid of bigger people, if push comes to shove a bigger person has more capability physically to defend themselves (mentally is a diff story), and people wouldn’t be able to see my fear too easy as I usually walk around with an emotionless relaxed face.
In highschool I had heard some girls were nervous of me because I was probably twice their size, I felt like shit over it and tried my best not to make anyone feel uncomfy. I guess that’s the empathy kicking in!
You’re probably right on the staring bit, I think if anything they’d just notice I am shy. I do look around the room quite a lot though, if you ever saw me you’d probably see someone who’s expecting trouble just by how I scan the room and look at everything (did it since I was a kid, maybe I need to be a cop:P).
I try to avoid getting too close to strangers, avoid eye contact mostly, in order to not make them uncomfy. If we’re on an elevator I am as far as way possible for my own comfort and theirs. I can’t help but feel sad though that the society here isn’t more friendly, I feel it’d be better if people talked to randoms more, I feel I can gauge trust better after talking to someone and I am more at ease after people have those random “Do you know where this is?” type convos.
“Not to minimize your fear but just highlighting how us big guys can be afraid of women,”
One of the big problems is you’re not allowed to defend yourself. If you got into a physical altercation with a woman, I have a pretty good idea who’s going to jail regardless of who started it.
This sounds very familiar.
People tend to underestimate big men’s minds I think, they see the huge physical body that is probably quite strong but forget that you can drive a tank but still be scared as hell!
“Not to minimize”?
Comparing your fear of feeling humiliated by being told no by a woman to the much higher likelihood that a woman will actually be subjected physical and psychological violence by any man she dares to reject OR be nice to, which is MUCH higher than the likelihood a woman will be even rude to you at all is doing just that.
It’s not a comparison….They’re different fears, not really comparable. I highlighted in the attempt that it helps to bridge the gap, hopefully to help people realize that even very large n strong men can be extremely scared and not a threat.
“Comparing your fear of feeling humiliated by being told no by a woman to the much higher likelihood that a woman will actually be subjected physical and psychological violence by any man she dares to reject OR be nice to, which is MUCH higher than the likelihood a woman will be even rude to you at all is doing just that.”
Yeah I’m calling bullshit on the much higher likelihood of phyical of psychological violence by any man she dares reject etc. Maybe you live in an area where women are extremely polite but I’d say women being rude to men happens far more commonly than physical n psychological violence from men to women, especially since the latter can get someone in major trouble with the law and possibly a smackdown from a protective friend/relative.
And how do you know how often I am rejected, or would be rejected? It could easily outnumber the rate of violence suffered by the average woman from each stranger we meet.
But thank-you for minimizing my fear as insignificant compared to the experiences of women which apparently have more violence, assuming that violence is more harmful to that woman than the fear of rejection and the effects are to me. Btw, I gather you assume the humilation is in being told no when that’s not the case, my fear is being told in a manner which is extremely rude, humiliating, in a manner that is insulting where she calls me ugly, jokes around accepting just to laugh about it with friends later. A simple no doesn’t bother me, it’s the way the no is delivered that can be quite hurtful and give me more pain than I have gotten after physically violent attacks. Which, as a man, I am far more likely to suffer random acts of violence than a woman, 4x-6x more likely to die from violence than a woman, so it should be men who are the most afraid walking down those dark alleys. How’s that for some oppression olympics? Did I escalate it enough to win the gold medal?
From a person who has actually competed in a combat sport, I can tell you that quite often it’s a person emotional state that will be the biggest determining factor in whether they will win a fight. Our instructor would tell us that if you step on the mat thinking you’ll lose, you’ve already lost. It has been my experience that this is true.
I had gotten off the bus and proceeded to walk home. I noticed 4 individuals loitering in the sidewalk in front of a problem house. The boys at that address were new gang members. These boys where talking to unknown individuals at the house. At first I thought I should cross to the other side of the street. It wouldn’t even have taken me out of my way as I would have had to cross the street eventually to get home, but a calmness came over me and I decided that I wouldn’t.
As I started calmly walking towards them, I could hear snippets of conversation. My mind discarded the irrelevant stuff. I heard a person from the porch cautioning one of the guys on the sidewalk that I knew karate. As I was walking closer, the person cautioned kept yelling, “Do you know karate?” As I calmly walked closer, I counted 4 on the porch. My eyes paused for a second on all 8 of them noting their position. I started formulating in my mind how I would beat the 4 in front of me, how much time I would have before the other 4 got there, etc. I got about a dozen steps away and he asked again, “Do you know karate?” I calmly looked at him and said, “There’s a way to find out, if you have the balls.” The 4 in front of me just parted and let me pass.
I’ve won a fight against 4 opponents before. They had the physical advantage, bur I won. I’ve also had the crap knocked out of me by 8 guys at one time. I’ve had emotionally traumatizing experiences before. The physical pain of having been pummeled by 8 guys goes away and is much easier to handle than the emotional. Where does the trauma of rape come from? Is it really the physical assault? You’re body can heal quite quickly from that or is it the lingering emotional trauma?
I think it depends person to person, my wounds healed quick for fights I’ve been in but the emotional wounds hurt more.
I haven’t been raped but I would hazard a guess that the pain comes from the violation, the feeling of someone taking from you and you can’t stop it, the fear of std’s, pain of any physical damage, a supermegaultra sense of that icky feeling when someone touchs you that you don’t want to touch you.
Which is worse? Neither, impossible to quantify as it depends entirely on what happens. Some fights are mild physical damage wise, some are extreme, some rapes are mild physical damage wise, some are extreme. As for the emotional damage in fights vs rapes, well it depends person to person but both can be extremely damaging. A fight that leaves you with little physical damage, a bruise maybe, can still be extremely traumatic, a rape that leaves you with little physical damage can still be extremely traumatic. The damage done emotionally doesn’t have to match up with the physical damage. Hell my most damaging experience had no physical element to it, still did a shit tonne of damage to me though.
Trauma to the mind, and trauma to the body are fairly separate. Physical can trigger trauma to the mind, the mind can do a bit of damage to the body in the form of stress but haven’t heard it to major damage. So the trauma of rape would be physical trauma + mental trauma. But some physical traumas can’t be healed, major tearing to the genitals for instance can lead to scar tissue which can make sex painful, a bad fight can have people lose eyes, etc which can’t be healed back.
If given the choice between being raped, and being assaulted, which would I pick? There’s no decent choice, both are fucking terrible and can lead to long lasting trauma, I know rape victims who are traumatized for years, I know physical violence survivors (by that I mean fights excluding rape) who are traumatized for years.
As a child I was thrown off my desk into a cupboard with a screaming angry male teacher who put so much fear into me that even as a young adult everytime I heard an adult male yell I froze in fear, I only got past it after about 15 years but even still I get a bit nervous. Both are very serious and both are bad.
In the requests for empathy there is something that may be holding people back. You on your own Joanna do show empathy when asked and I bet you have experience where you asked for it and didn’t get it. But I think one thing that is bothering some of the folks here is this:
Why is it that, in overall sense, certain situations are played up to be more deserving of empathey than others (or even in some cases where the people in question are denied empathy altogether)?
Here you say:
Maybe it’s more threatening when a stranger who is male stares at a stranger who is female?
I’m 5’7″ and 120 lbs. If a 6’6″ guy who weighs 250 lbs is staring at me, I will get scared.
If I, however, am staring at him, he may also get uncomfortable, but his safety is not likely threatened (And don’t tell me women physically assault men who are strangers to them as often as stranger violence happens man on women. Not a single study shows that to be true)
Followed by a request for empathy. I know you don’t mean it but this is pretty much how guys are denied empathy. Throw up some stat or numbers then declare that guys don’t have it that bad, complete with an attempt at clairvoyance to try to head off counter-arguments.
Myself personally? I turned off my capcity for empathy a long time ago after being repeatedly told that I need to be showing it for others but I didn’t deserve any myself.
That’s what you’re gonna be up against.
“Why is it that, in overall sense, certain situations are played up to be more deserving of empathey than others (or even in some cases where the people in question are denied empathy altogether)?”
That’s standard feminist politics. To empathize with men grants men humanity. When seen as fully human, it makes it harder to screw someone over. At best men can only be significantly less victimized than women even in cases where they are more victimized.
That’s standard feminist politics. To empathize with men grants men humanity. When seen as fully human, it makes it harder to screw someone over. At best men can only be significantly less victimized than women even in cases where they are more victimized.
Maybe not standard but it sure as hell seems common.
And I worry that you’re right that there are people that simply do not want men to be acknowledged as full humans. No its safer and neater for them to just be privileged oppressors that occasionally have bad stuff happen to them.
Yes, it’s important to model the kind of treatment you’d like by giving it to others (though in my experience people are unlikely to take the hint). But at least it attracts those who are, or would like to be, on your wavelength. It’s a mistake to give up and become someone you don’t like. Be an awesome person for yourself, because it feels good to be that guy, and then look for those who want to relate that way. Those who demand empathy and don’t give it back suck, it’s okay to disregard them and move on. But don’t let them change you.
“Nobody here gets to decide for me whether something hurts or scares me.”
I think many men would like to be afforded the same courtesy.
“Nobody here gets to decide for me whether something hurts or scares me.”
Correct. That’s YOUR problem.
At the same time YOU DO NOT get to decide for me which direction I point my eyes.
@ HeatherN
“And yeah, objectification can happen between any two human beings, but it’s more common in western society for men to objectify women rather than the other way around.”
Then why do I read stories even by female writers where they’ll say 100 people were killed including women (and children). What is the funding disparity between breast cancer research and prostate cancer research? When women commit crimes especially sex crimes people feel that she must be emotionally disturbed. Men are the disposable sex so how are women more objectified? You’re probably only referring to sexual objectification and I’m not sure that even this is true.
That’s a lingusitic standard set by MEN that they’re *conforming* to. You should really look up the questions to your answers instead of turning them into pretty thinly veiled straw women.
Society was built by both genders, not men alone. You fail to see his point.
Exactly,
Look at the white feather campaign in the early 1900′s in UK. This campaign centered around women handing a white feather to any man who was not in uniform shaming him for not doing his part. It was thought up by a general and was HUGELY successful as a recruiting tool.
The fact that many men valued the respect of women who were total strangers so absolutely that they joined the military in a dangerous war, at a time when (per many hard-line feminists) women had *ZERO* agency throws mud in a lot of their theories. What many feminists don’t seem to understand is that women had a huge hand in shaping gender-norms.
“The fact that many men valued the respect of women who were total strangers so absolutely that they joined the military in a dangerous war,”
That’s a great point. Women will talk about how imagery including or especially when it involves pornography negatively impact women because they can’t live up to these elevated standards that men now expect because women have a need to be desired by men. They don’t take into consideration that men want to be what women expect a man to be as well and will try to live up to the expectations that they believe that women have. That’s why 25% of the people suffering from eating disorders now are men.
Gee, I thought the argument was that objectification was not seeing someone as a person. Explain to me the error of my ways, since you decided not to in your last post. I guess you think calling something a straw argument is the same as refuting it.
Everyone is disposable in patriarchy. That’s what sucks about it, toy soldiers and dollies to be broken and thrown out when they’re old.
Power-archy. No one without power does all that well. Which is why we want it. And often, if we get it, we just use it badly. Seems to be a primate condition.
I’m sorry that I struck a nerve here. I never thought about guys looking at women for fashion inspiration, but I believe you. I’ve been leered at in all sorts of clothing, including work uniforms, so I don’t think that it’s ALL men who do it for that reason. “I bought you this because I saw a really hot woman wearing it” probably wouldn’t sit too well with me either. Then again, I’m also not too interested in men buying clothes for me. I think it’s wonderful, though, that you refer to your wife as hot too, which the internet has told me is rarely the case after 18 years of marriage.
As for why women dress up. Why do men dress up? We all want to look good, feel confident, and feel like our best selves. Clothing helps that and we’re raised in a culture that makes it so. 100% I feel better when I’m dressed nice and wearing makeup. Almost every woman I know wears at least some makeup when going out. It’s just what women do. We’re also taught that our looks are very important, so we try to look our best. Sometimes I dress to express myself (fashion can be many things). Sometimes to feel comfortable. Sometimes because an occasion or a job calls for a certain type of dress. Sometimes because you want to one up that girl who was a bitch to you. Sometimes it is to attract a man’s attention–but I do hope he FLIRTS rather than objectifies. Yes, often I want to get laid or find a boyfriend, but NOT made to feel uncomfortable or to be leered at by someone on a date with another woman, someone who comes off as bitter or revels in making a woman feel like nothing but there for his sexual pleasure or not, or someone who could be my dad, or who ignores sexual women his own age, or to be harassed and feel threatened. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s not a big deal in most cases–I move on (although I have been in some scary situations). I just find it direspectful and icky.
“Flirting from someone undesirable, as opposed to objectification, is gently declined rather than condemned in my experience, because it’s respectful.”
This is a great takeaway quote. There’s a world of difference and it has VERY little to do with whether the other person is or isn’t attractive to you. I’ve had a lot of experience with flirting in my life. Many times, I wasn’t attracted to the man at all, but I was still polite and not offended.
Nowadays, when a man stares at me in a way that is unpleasant, I look him straight in the eyes. I’ve noticed that usually he starts to feel uncomfortable and averts his gaze. Same goes for when I’m walking on the street and a man gives me one of those threatening ‘hi’s’. If you’re a woman, you probably know what I mean by that. I just respond back with a hi or ‘hi how are you’, and the man starts to look very uncomfortable.
“Sometimes it is to attract a man’s attention–but I do hope he FLIRTS rather than objectifies. Yes, often I want to get laid or find a boyfriend”
That’s one of the problems a lot of guys have. I’ve heard women say things like she didn’t dress up for you, but how would you know if she’s not with someone? I remember staring at this woman in a club once. She was just sitting there. She noticed me and after about a minute of us looking at each other, she started swaying her shoulders. I knew that she wanted me to ask her to dance so I did. I did the same thing on a bus and got a date. She actually turned to her girlfriend and asked if all I was going to do was stare or something like that. I was a little embarrassed, but at least I wasn’t rejected. Some other guys might stare to try to gauge interest.
Women who like older men aren’t helping. If you want older men to focus on women their own age, get younger women to focus on men their age as well.
Nah, that would make too much sense. It’s far easier to just balme men for being horny old perverts then take half a second and remember the 30+ year old man they dated when they were a sophomore in college and try and make the connection to the situation they now find themselves in.
Who does that? I’ve never dated or slept with anyone more than 2-3 years plus or minus my age. Not that if I felt some great connection with someone who was 18 or 40 that I would miss out on some great chemistry due simply to age, but I’ve found that I tend to prefer my peers. Men + or – 5 years are the ones I get the most and who most get me. I also find them the most physically attractive with a few exceptions.
Plenty of people, Aya. Not everyone follows your path of course.
There was a woman I knew about 20, very physically attractive, articulate, highly intelligent, industrious, ambitious. I was about 32 at the time. She slept with me and a few guys I knew from working in the industry. I caught up with her a few years later and found out see was seeing a 35 year old, blue collar worker who owned 2 apartment buildings and worked two jobs. She told me that it wasn’t the money she was after. She actually made a decent amount. She wanted a man who had something “going on” and most younger guys didn’t.
I’ve heard other professional women state that they wanted guys who “could bring something to the table” or state that “they have their own money, but won’t support a man”. A woman I dated told me she didn’t mind older guys as long as they were established. She owned her own company. I don’t think these women were gold digging. They wanted someone who would be an equal financial partner or at least not be gold digging them.
Oh my.
This seems to me the old idealistic attitude of “Strive to never ever upset anybody!”.
Well, you can’t: whatever you do, whatever you think, someone is going to be annoyed, pissed off or hurt. You know, humans are funny like that.
“It’s not your RIGHT to make people uncomfortable”
No, it’s not. OTOH, it’s not THEIR right to control my mind or behaviour, just because they make them uncomfortable.
@Julie Gillis: “We use and abuse and ignore and objectify each other all the time”
Agreed.
While “use” and “abuse” are too much and should be avoided, IMHO one cannot avoid to ignore or objectify (at least a little) all the time, unless he’s prone to shut off his mind completely.
I mean, what’s worse?
Someone annoyed by being stared at… or someone paranoid, hypercontrolled and devoid of spontaneity, frozen by the fear of acting “bad”?
Human beings annoy other human beings all the time. Sartre said “Others are hell”.
The very idea of avoiding all of annoying and making people uncomfortable, is a myth. It’s utopia. It’s a unicorn.
The price for living in a society is compromise and adaptation, and some discomfort, for everybody. EVERYBODY.
Being an adult means also growing a skin thick enough you don’t need to make a fuss for all the little annoying things that are part of life.
If I see you, and I enjoy what I see, and I make a movie in my mind about it (without acting strange or invasively), what happens inside my mind is my own business, and nobody else’s.
“If I see you, and I enjoy what I see, and I make a movie in my mind about it (without acting strange or invasively), what happens inside my mind is my own business, and nobody else’s.”
Yeah, I said as much.
To me, objectification means deliberately shutting my humanity out of consideration while thinking of me in sexual terms. I got familiar with the phenomenon in 25 years of being a bar band singer and, when younger, a cocktail waitress. There is an innate agression in it. Every once in a while, it gets expressed verbally. A guy may wander up and ask if I’m wearing underwear, or say, “nice rack” or “nice ass,” and it’s clear he’s not wondering if he’d like me if he knew me. Those are comments designed to let me know he doesn’t give a shit what I’m actually like.
That pisses me off, but only because it actually hurts, and taps into a deeper fear that comes from the traditional milieu in which I was raised, in which women were dismissed as irrelevant beyond their roles as temptresses, wives and mothers. To have all that I am dismissed as fundamentally uninteresting hurts.
I always suspected there was a hostility born of fear behind that behavior in the guys who acted like that. I figured that they were angry that I had something they wanted, which they didn’t feel too hopeful of getting, and were mad at me for it. I thought they were afraid because they figured I’d reject them if they actually really did want to get close. The easiest way to deal with that fear was to sort of eye-rape me. take of me what they could while expressing contempt for that of me which might have done the rejecting. I got this a lot from older men, or men who weren’t terribly good looking or fit and therefor felt I was not a viable proposition.
(This, guys who are reading this, is not true. One of the men I loved the most was 25 years older than me and 30 pounds overweight and not very attractive. But he loved women, and wasn’t afraid of them at all. Wasn’t afraid of me either, and that confidence and interest–so rare–along with a really good mind, won me over. Eventually he turned out to be so devastatingly irresponsible it didn’t work, but that’s another story.)
I see a lot of men in the gym who are beautifully assembled. I’m older now, 40, and I am now in the position of finding men attractive who are unlikely to return the sentiment. I notice that beauty without hostility, though. I’m glad they are having that moment, those years of being in a sort of glory. I respect the energy that goes into creating a body like that. It says something about the person, something about discipline (and maybe less good things, too, like obsessiveness and insecurity) but the point it, I am incapable of seeing that body as distinct from the person inhabiting it.
I think for me, that’s the difference.
I appreciate this comment.
@mightypog: “I always suspected there was a hostility born of fear behind that behavior in the guys who acted like that. [...]
The easiest way to deal with that fear was to sort of eye-rape me.”
I think you hit the nail on the head.
I like the rest of your comment, too. You didn’t grow a long-lasting resentment over your objectification experiences, and you have been even able to understand where they did come from. Kudos.
Thank you. It was a very insightful comment.
“…taps into a deeper fear…. To have all that I am dismissed as fundamentally uninteresting hurts.” Excellent point: it is not the particular instance that is the problem, it is the transformation of it in your (one’s) mind into a more global referendum on 1) rights: your right to be taken seriously, to have your thoughts and opinions considered, to hold a job for which you are qualified, etc. If the guy has no power to hire, fire, or otherwise exert any influence over your life, who gives a s**t what he thinks?…. and 2) desirability: thinking that “if this guy doesn’t see everything that I have to offer – my brains, my humor, my heart, my emotional intelligence – then *sniff* No One Ever Will, I Just Know It!”
“I figured that they were angry that I had something they wanted, which they didn’t feel too hopeful of getting, and were mad at me for it.” The danger then may be falling into the “rescuer” role, in effect communicating that, despite their boorishness, that they ARE good people, and see, they ARE deserving of your attention and time, and look at how unselfless you are in showing that to them….
Most people have heard the saying “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Is it possible that no one can make you feel objectified (or care about feeling objectified) without your consent? Or if you accept the premise that “men are conditioned to objectify women”, are you being culturally objectified regardless of how you personally feel about it?
I think what has set some people off is this:
Objectify: To stare, gawk, or check out women and their bodies and body parts. To see them as objects (instead of real people) and to think of them in a sexual way.
There’s argument here over whether checking out someone necessarily equates objectification. And it doesn’t help that “think of them in a sexual way” is being attached to “to see them as objects”.
I’m sure the writer didn’t mean that.
I think there’s a false equivalence here between objectifying and sexualizing… you can objectify women without wanting to have sex with them. You can also have want to have sex with them without objectifying them.
No doubt objectification happens most often in sexual contexts… but I think this confusion is the root for a lot of headaches in the gender debate… sexual desire doesn’t have to be objectifying…
In my experience it’s equating the two that causes the most violent misogynistic behavior..
This would all be easier I people would stop removing it from the psychological context in which the word was born.
My boyfriend can want and picture *ME* all he wants and its not inately objectifying; it’s fantasizing. But if a man avoids honest ontact and normal HUMAN respect and sensitivity when I’m there because he’s more engaged with the fantasy in his head or avoiding thoughts of myself, my desiresl, that IS objectifying.
I can’t tell you the number of men who have suddenly turned abusive because they were engaging someone they’d objectified in a sexual manner, because that’s their definition of what the sexual encounter should be: object-ifying.
I’m a bit late to the conversation, so I don’t know if someone picked this out here but this sentence here really bothers me:
“Remember that objectifying women isn’t bad or wrong.”
It is, actually wrong. Viewing another human being as an object is not okay. To frame the discussion in looking at how objectifying women affects men, and then say something like the above statement, is to completely gloss over the very real problems with objectification.
Look if you want to talk about how the ways men objectify women affect men’s lives, I’m all for that…but don’t suggest that it’s not wrong. It is wrong. Women are not objects.
I agree that it is wrong, Heather. But here’s the thing: people objectify people. It’s not right, but as humans, we’re prone to judge. And there’s absolutely no difference between judging someone and objectifying them. In order to do one, you have to do the other. The more sympathetic a light we see someone in, the more human and less “object” they become. And here’s the thing: even when we see someone as “fully human” we tend to objectify them. The manager at work, the guy cleaning the floors at the supermarket. That one relative we don’t like for some vague reason and avoid. Objects to those of us who don’t know them personally. We may sympathize with them on some level, but to us, they’re functionaries.
The man who leers at a woman and refuses to see her as anything but an “object” is no worse or better than one who sees a frumpy, obese woman with a stained t-shirt and thinks “What a slob!” (The previous example is every bit as valid with the genders switched, but as the author of this article said, that’s a whole other article.)
Does that make it right? No. But I challenge a single person in this discussion to state in perfect honesty that they’ve never looked at a homeless person and thought either “That poor soul! He needs help!” or “That bum needs to get a job.” Either way, you’ve (and I’m using the subjective ‘you’) reduced that homeless person to a one-sentence commentary of the economy, the unfairness of society, the lack of proper work ethic or whatever. Whether it’s compassionate or cruel, whether you gave the guy a couple bucks or a sandwich, you’re not seeing that person as a living, breathing soul with a story and a family. You can’t, because you don’t know his story. But you’re making some judgement about him anyway. You’re seeing him as an object.
Objectification is just as wrong and misguided whether it’s sexual or not. And chances are, anyone reading this has done it a few dozen times today. We can’t stop our capacity to objectify others, but we can be aware of it, learn from it, and try to be compassionate people despite it.
@Travis: “But here’s the thing: people objectify people.”
Yep. That’s the basic truth.
People are not saints; they’re humans. Hence they’re far from ideal.
Then, the question should be: why objectification by men is so much more shamed than objectification by women?
FFS, objectification by anyone is wrong. That’s what I’m saying.
I think it’s a power issue. I, as a woman, can objectify you, as a man…and are you harmed? Are you then not taken seriously by society? Do you potentially lose job opportunities, suffer the physical and emotional trauma of sexual assault, etc? The truth is, not really. Objectification of men by women is not shamed because there is not much need to: there is no cultural power imbalance to rectify. Objectification by men of women is shamed as a cultural/political attempt to redress that imbalance.
“I think it’s a power issue. I, as a woman, can objectify you, as a man…and are you harmed? Are you then not taken seriously by society? Do you potentially lose job opportunities, suffer the physical and emotional trauma of sexual assault, etc? The truth is, not really. Objectification of men by women is not shamed because there is not much need to: there is no cultural power imbalance to rectify. Objectification by men of women is shamed as a cultural/political attempt to redress that imbalance.”
Yes, we suffer physical and emotional trauma of sexual assault, “not really” has gotta be the dumbest thing I’ve read in this thread so far. You talk about not being taken seriously by society and then don’t take male sexual assault seriously, asking if men are harmed by sexual assault and saying not really????
Yes you as a woman have the power to harm men with objectification. When men are objectified as walking ATM’s, they feel dehumanized, feel pain just as women feel pain. When men are treated as bodyguards expected to fight to protect women, it dehumanizes them, they don’t feel like humans, they feel like shields because a woman’s life is more sacred.
I’m sorry, Archy, I meant my response to Valter’s question to be a broad-brush-stroke indictment of the culture overall, not my personal belief about the seriousness of sexual assault. I’d like to offer a rewrite:
“I think it’s a power issue. I, as a woman, can objectify you, as a man…but it is less likely that society will not take you seriously as a result of it. Objectification of men by women is not shamed because there is not much need to: there is no cultural power imbalance to rectify. Objectification by men of women is shamed as a cultural/political attempt to redress that imbalance.”
““I think it’s a power issue. I, as a woman, can objectify you, as a man…but it is less likely that society will not take you seriously as a result of it. Objectification of men by women is not shamed because there is not much need to: there is no cultural power imbalance to rectify. Objectification by men of women is shamed as a cultural/political attempt to redress that imbalance.”
That’s only true if you assume that “sexual objectification” is the only kind out there, it isn’t. There’s also what many term “success objectification” where a person reduces someone down to their monetary value. It’s what happens when a person (usually a woman) decides that she should be able to take a part time, frivolous or “personally satisfying” job (or no job at all) because her partner will be able to make up the slack and give her the lifestyle she feels she deserves.
For example this: http://www.thefrisky.com/2010-06-25/cash-coupling-why-marrying-for-money-isnt-a-totally-bad-idea/
@ Jasmine
That really ignores people’s individual circumstance, but I suppose if a few men are truly victimized, sexually assaulted, denied jobs, etc. that’s an acceptable price to pay to allow women the opportunity to objectify men without guilt. Sexual harassment in the workplace could affect men’s stress levels and affect their job performance denying them raises, promotions, etc. Just thought you should know that.
Sorry wrong person. Comment for Theo Pando Ra:.
The compost here is your examples always using sympathy and not empathy and you’ve universalized the tendency to skirt responsibility for the choice.
I say choice because it is a choice: the minute you shut down their subjectivity in your own mind (the same moment you shut down your curiosity about their subjectivity, yes most people do that BEFORE they encounter other humans and that is the main problem with society), that is when you’ve decided one over the other.
Expand your mind and realize its not necessary. And being incidental doesn’t make it universal. It’s a learned/unlearned as well as presumed innate behavior.
Compost? Thank you for taking the high road.
It is a choice, but like most choices, it’s made about 7/8 of a second before the conscious mind falsely perceives it to have happened. That’s when the rationalizations and the “ohh wait, I didn’t mean that, I meant…” Neuroscience is finding out all sorts of fascinating things about our cerebral hardware. Many of those things proved advantageous in evolution (like the capacity to objectify and more or less trample over others,) but are presenting us with all sorts of modern-day moral dilemmas. When we discuss these things and try to come to an understanding, that’s a good thing. When we use them to mount a crusade against “those people” it’s just another example of cognitive bias in its many forms.
And not once did I say we should skirt responsibility for the choice. If that’s your interpretation of what I said, know that you extrapolated that yourself. What I’m saying is that the people finger-pointing the cruel and most abhorrent act objectification are implying that THEY would never objectify anyone or that they do not do so. Not the case, as evidenced by some of these posts. And if they’re not trying to imply that, that point is lost in the rather puritan rhetoric that is being used.
It’s universal to the degree that anyone who is not in a coma, or who has made it past the age of 12 months has done it and will do it by the time this sentence ends. What I’m saying is that responsibility should mean “shame on us, how do we fix this?” not “shame on you, you need to fix this!”
P.S. – If there’s a rule against using sympathy to make a point instead of empathy, please direct me to it. Otherwise, it’s just another way of framing an argument and neither more or less valid. Thanks.
I used to have difficulty identifying and articulating my feelings. Then I grew and learned and got much better at it.
I still like tits, and the sight of them.
It has nothing to do with my emotional acumen. This article is dead wrong, but I am sure it will sell to the grrls, which is clearly the intent.
I totally agree with you.
Check and check again.
Its very noble how we all preach the “know me as a human being and not as a sexual object” parable. However, I’m of the notion that there’s nothing more human than sex. You disagree? Maybe you’re a lab experiment- kudos to the scientist. But for the rest of us who started life in daddy’s scrotum should know that we wouldn’t be here without sex.
I’m not always interested in getting to know someone beyond their physical attributes. Hot girls can be boring and lack the stimulus to maintain my attention. Appreciating their good looks is as human as I get and remain unapologetic for something I’ve experienced myself from primary school (older girls always asked if I had an older brother). I enjoy the attention- that’s where I sometimes end it.
In all honesty the sight of a beautiful woman has a magical effect on us men. Some of us show restraint and respect, some of us resort to acts of stupidity. Point is, the female figure is there to be celebrated, appreciated and respected.
Don’t forget that you also started life in your grandmother’s womb while your mother was still a fetus. By the time mom was born, your egg was already there.
Don’t want to shortchange the female contribution to your existence after all.
The itch in your dad’s pants came years and years later.
The Wet One
I’ve appreciated a lot of the posts on here, and the current discussion as a whole. I am a man, 22 years old, and a Christian who believes that not only objectification, but lust as a whole, is wrong. I don’t look at pornography, I don’t masturbate, and I’m waiting for marriage to have sex. And yet, even though I have firm, strong beliefs about why I have these opinions, ideas, and convictions about my own life–I’ll admit, it’s hard not to objectify women.
I think sometimes women can see men objectifying them as a sort of assault or attack on their humanity. And, sometimes, it is. But on the other hand, men are also a victim of their own objectification. I don’t feel good when I find myself battling the desire to lust. Sometimes, I give in–I view a woman as not a person, but an object–a release of some sort. But I leave that experience feeling hollow and empty, and ultimately, it hurts my ability to see women differently after that experience. Every time I give into that impulse or desire, it hurts me. It puts me further away from finding what I really want: A deep connection with a woman. I think all men, regardless of whether or not they’re totally conscious of it, desire that. That’s what they’re looking for–but as the post had said, objectification is easier.
Men aren’t just lions on the prowl, they’re lonely, afraid, worried, and don’t know how to approach the great task of gaining a strong, deep connection with a woman they truly love, adore, and are committed to. So, instead, they look. They think about the things that surround that connection–namely, sex. Men often feel love and think about love through physical touch. But instead of aiming for the love part of that, they aim for the touch–or the thought of the touch. Really, I think most men are far from mature in this area, and don’t know what it is they’re really looking for. I believe the gawking and staring that men do is just part of a fear of failure. They get a taste of the things surrounding their real desire, but not the thing itself. In a way, it’s tragic. I know their looks do end up hurting women as well, and I don’t want to diminish that. But I just wanted to say there are real men out there who want to overcome the impulse to objectify. But I’ll be honest: In American culture, it’s hard.
@Ryan: “I am a man, 22 years old, and a Christian who believes that [...] lust as a whole, is wrong.”
Then “your” God had made you wrong.
Because you (and everybody else) are programmed to feel lust. It’s built-in.
The we can choose what to do with our lust, in a better or worse way; sure.
But shaming yourself just because you feel lust, is foolish and cruel to yourself. I’d like to remind you Christ’s message about “loving yourself as you love your neighbor”.
I’m appreciating these deeply mature viewpoints, it is the first time I’ve heard them from men. This topic is so needed, especially the comment about how many of us women are in the throe of becoming comfortable and pushing away appreciation, a kind of appreciation that is about outward and inward beauty is taking the experience out of me and making it real at last. This is positive; I am grateful for this thread. Even though I’ve been hoping for and demanding that there be men who go beyond sexualizing women, I’ve had a lot of doubt too. Very inspiring.
I’m just glad that folks are starting to notice. Even here alone there have been a few times where someone would come in asking, “Why won’t men open up?” and then ignore us when we do.
Just tell them what they want to hear or the shit hits the fan. Only men objectify the opposite sex don’t you know, women are clearly above such behaviour and never objectify men in any way shape or form, well maybe they do but then we can pretend it’s harmless apparently. What a joke.
I once had a gorgeous woman working with me in my office; turning around one day to ask her a question, i found myself looking straight at her tanned breasts almost completely revealed inside her loose top as she leaned over in her chair to get something off the floor. We were good friends and had worked together some time, and laughing, I said, “Linda, please don’t do that; it’s really distracting…!”
Her response taught me something I have valued ever since. She looked me right in the eyes and firmly said, “Z, I don’t mind if a man looks at my breasts — as long as he looks at my face FIRST.”
That was the great lesson: see HER, see the PERSON first; then a glance at her body is not as crude or objectifying as without that initial acknowledgement of the human being before you. Yes, this was one woman’s response, but it certainly made sense to me — and has lessened my discomfort and former shame at looking at women (and by that i do not mean that i can now leer and stare once i’ve glanced at her face first!).
concurring with mightypog, who wrote above:
“I always suspected there was a hostility born of fear behind that behavior in the guys who acted like that….The easiest way to deal with that fear was to sort of eye-rape me:”
Another long-remembered experience was jogging with — and sometimes behind when the trail was narrow and someone was coming the other direction — a Brazilian girlfriend who was not only stunning as only Brazilians seem to be, but also large breasted. When i ran behind her as a man came the other way, i was horrified to note how their faces often got ferociously hard as they stared and almost devoured her breasts with their eyes. The ugly look on their faces was actually frightening to ME, a healthy adult man, and it gave me a powerful understanding of why women can be so uncomfortable with the way some men greedily look (leer, stare, ogle) at their bodies.
ZK, Boulder, CO
I agree, face first then breasts is more courteous. But that move can’t be premeditated, or it becomes manipulative (PUA territory), so it must be unconscious/spontaneous to remain courteous.
Did those jogging men look totally in awe of them? As if the breasts were a major magnet to their eyes? Sometimes I think various body parts (especially bouncing breasts) can be really capivating and quite hard not to notice or look, but even then it’s only a second or 2 I look (in amazement I might add). Though everytime I see bouncing breasts on female joggers I wonder if it hurts much and try to think of how you’d stop them bouncing so much, maybe some form of mesh inlay booby holder in the bra itself to try stop them flying up?:P I had a friend who would ducttape them when skateboarding so they wouldn’t throw her balance off :S. As a man who was once obese with b-c cup manboobs I know how they hurt when I ran, each step is like a shock to the skin and very annoying!
“When i ran behind her as a man came the other way, i was horrified to note how their faces often got ferociously hard as they stared and almost devoured her breasts with their eyes.” – This reminds me that women are talking about a certain experience when speaking to men that they might have something different in mind than what is communicated to the men. Certainly everything I’ve read suggested that men can’t ever look at breasts.. But then they show their breasts and then stupid me feels I need to ask why.? Why can”t I just accept my intuitive impression that there is blatant and vast contradiction going here? And then I do ask why and I get different answers many of which contradiction everything I read. Why read anything about sexuality if you can’t trust it and you know that it doesn’t reflect what people actually think and believe? Why can’t I read something that speaks positively and non contradictorily about these things? I even submitted and article to the GMP about his but I don’t know if it will ever get published everywhere. It’s the fundamental law of sexuality don’t ever give men a clue. Don’t provide them straight forward earnest guidance. Let them guess. Let them break the rules on accident, but don’t ever make them feel secure.
You may get contradictory answers because women don’t have a hive mind
If you talk to different women, you will get different answers on a lot of issues.
Also, you can’t assume that women are intentionally showing off their breasts.. I have naturally large breasts and it’s really hard to find stylish clothes that don’t emphasize my breasts. I wear tank tops under a lot of shirts to try to minimize cleavage but that’s not a perfect solution. If I lean over, whoever is looking is going to get a glimpse, unless I’m wearing a button up Victorian collar! In professional settings, I often wear a loose sweater or a blazer. But on warm summer weekends, I’m not going to wear heavy, baggy clothing just so guys won’t be distracted by my boobs. It bugs me that a guy might think it’s okay to ogle me because they think I “want” to call attention to myself when I’m wearing basic casual clothing.
Sorry, but “devoured with his eyes” is still just a metaphor. “I could feel his eyes on my body” is really just a common illusion mistaken as a physical instinct. A person’s eyes do not actually touch you. Looking at a person in public is not an assault and ultimately does not “cause” someone else’s feelings.
If you do not like the way that I look at a person, then you are, ironically, reacting to the way that I look, the turn of my head, the direction my irises are pointing, etc. You are blaming my appearance for the way that you feel. If you are critical of the angle of my eyeballs because they are aimed lower than you would like, then you are being critical of the way that I am moving my body in my own space. You are critical of the way that I rotate my eyes in their orbits or my head on my own neck.
You can request that I move my head or my eyes in a different way. You are free to arrive at any conclusions you want about me based on where I point my vision. You can even objectify me or dehumanize me in your imagination, all of which is your right as an independent brain. Meanwhile, I will come to my own conclusions in my own head, and I will move my eyeballs in my own skull whatever way that I want to.
My look does not “cause” discomfort any more than a particular outfit “causes” gawking. In either case, someone is projecting their own issues onto someone else’s appearance instead of owning their own issues.
Two things. First I’ve gotten in trouble for not appreciating the way a woman looks before. I’ve even had my sexuality questioned when I’ve shown no interest. Second, I wonder how the women on the thread would feel 20 years from now when the looks are fading. 25 years or so ago when I was into martial arts and weightlifting I got quite a few compliments from women. Now I’m mid 40s and I still get a few, but there usually from 30ish/40ish women.
But you’re that age too, so why is that a problem? When I’m in my mid 40s, I’ll have no problem getting complimented by single men who are around my age, just as I don’t have a problem with getting hit on by single men in their 20s now. Unless it’s done in a harassing, cruel, or threatening manner, of course.
What I mean is there is always the chance that you won’t get hit on at all. In my opinion most guys are attracted to conventionally attractive women. There are a few guys who are attracted to a particular body type and some that prefer a “thick” (closer to normal) body type. I know that there’s a cougar/mature fetish and generally greater acceptance of the attractiveness of older women, but given a choice between a conventionally attractive cougar and a somewhat conventionally attractive “kitten”, I and I think most guys would appreciate the kitten more. Recently, I witnessed a 30ish woman’s, who would not be considered conventionally attractive, face light up when a much older man (50ish) told her she had beautiful eyes. I don’t know if she was ever conventionally attractive, but I know we all have a need to be attractive.
What women find attractive is somewhat more elusive (George Clooney, Ted Turner, Justin Beiber, WTF) and although everyone has their own preference, I think even men and women don’t agree on what a conventionally attractive man looks like. Would any of the ladies like to write a post on what an attractive man looks like? I remember the response one woman gave to a question describe the perfect penis as one being attached to a man who respects and cares for her. That explains why I could be attractive to the young woman 17 or so years my junior. I still don’t know what I’m going to do about that. I care about her. She’s a dear friend and she should be looking for a man her own age.
What I’m saying is be careful what you wish for. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side.
“Would any of the ladies like to write a post on what an attractive man looks like?”
Well, let me try…
For example, I went to dinner with some work colleagues last night at a great restaurant (live jazz playing in the background, awesome food)….we were invited by some other work colleagues, so it was about schmoozing but the guy who sat across from me was so fascinating and charismatic….he was an expert in a certain field and was talking about some of what he does on a daily basis….he was so passionate about what he does and yet self-deprecating, and yet you could tell how knowledgeable he was in his field…he was humble in admitting that there were certain things that he still did not know in his field but he lavished praise on some of his colleagues, yes, even female colleagues….he talked about verbally sparring with some of the people that he works with in his department but he did not put the other person down or say anything snarky or insulting about his colleague…
He kind of looked like a less bulky version of The Rock, but it wasn’t so much his looks that pulled you in…it was the way he told the story and the way he praised his co-workers and the people he was telling stories about (he praised their courage and intelligence)….Then he had to leave to get home to his wife (who is also a professional like him) and family and “relieve the babysitter”….That made him all the more endearing that he was thinking of them and wanted to see them before it got too late….
He was Über-cool….and that I find is even more attractive than George Clooney on a motorcycle going around Lake Como in Italy!
This made me smile. It’s nice when you hear that all you have to do is be a good person.
There’s usually a lot about the way you comb your hair, the way you walk, how you word your sentences, who’s with you, how many extra pushups at the gym. And if girls aren’t flocking yet, you aren’t trying hard enough! Double the pushups! Remember those leg positions! Be funny, kinda cocky, but not cocky, and not goofy. Be sexual, it turns her on, but whatever you do, don’t be sexual; girls don’t know they like sex. They’ll be offended.
Blah Blah Blah Blah. It’s freaky if you feel like you need to practice “being yourself, as long as it’s this one way.” Who would want a relationship like that? The idea of simply trying to be a good human being sounds like a more attractive, and much more productive, approach.
For me it really has little to do with whether or not I find the man attractive like many people are saying. That doesn’t mean it’s the case for other women, of course. There are men who are much older than I am that I do find attractive, but I’d still rather they didn’t look at me because they’re married, have kids, remind me of my dad, and because I wish that they WOULD look at women their own age. Most of the guys that I’ve dated have kept their eyes and check around me and made me feel like the most beautiful woman in the world in their eyes. It’s a wonderful feeling. I want the same for other women, and I’m far less deserving of it than a lot of these hard working mothers and wives I see. For everyone else, it’s the approach, and leering at my breasts really does make me uncomfortable–I don’t care how hot or rich you are. I’ve had stunning rich frat boys make me feel extremely uncomfortable. I’ve had rich young men offer to fly me out to exotic places who’ve made my skin crawl. And–I’ve had very conventionally unattractive boys approach me in ways I found adorable and sweet–sometimes it even ended in something.
I remember getting heavily and aggressively hit on by one of my dad’s friends while on a business trip with him. The guy had a beautiful, well-earning, fit, kind wife and a lovely young son. I get it, I’ve cheated and I’ve been cheated on. We all like variety and make mistakes. But when it’s someone who has a child and is closer to your dad’s age than yours…and does it while his wife is at home entertaining company and taking care of his home and …really?
It all makes me question dating, marriage, and any kind of relationship with a man. Why bother if once I reach a certain age, I’ll become sexually invisible anyways and potentially humiliated? The VAST women of my generation do not need men for financial support. So the only benefit is regular sex? I do actually wish that massage parlors with happy endings were more available for women. I would definitely try sex tourism in a country like Jamaica if it weren’t so exploitative of the men. If I want children, I could do it without a man, and why risk getting my body called ‘ruined’ by someone who is supposed to love me? I’m sorry if that sounds a little defeatist or will cause controversy. I’m not trying to shame anyone, just to put how I feel out there.
“I do actually wish that massage parlors with happy endings were more available for women. I would definitely try sex tourism in a country like Jamaica if it weren’t so exploitative of the men.”
I’ve always thought prostitution should be legal because I believe in bodily autonomy. I am trying to understand the position that prostitution should be illegal because most people engaging in prostitution did not have a legitimate choice (exploitive). I was just wondering what the difference was between massage parlors with happy endings and sexual tourism. Is it the belief that men should be able to financially support themselves without prostituting themselves in the United Sates?
It’s not my intention to sound mean. I’m in enough trouble with Julie already. I’m just trying to understand the exploitation or not really a person’s choice/consent argument.
I don’t see a problem with sex tourism as long as you pay a decent wage, which may require you to pay more than what was requested.
“Does it give a kind of pleasure knowing that it hurts us, this particular truth, or do you not even think of it.”
Sorry Julie, I didn’t mean to hurt you. I was just pointing out that the women who complain about being objectified are usually the young and attractive. They don’t ever seem to consider that there are other people who never got the attention.
“I don’t judge men for money.”
I technically make more money than the median household income, but the young lady who showed interest in me is a professional who makes more than I do. We both own our own homes and cars. Looking at the trends in education, if women hold men to this standard, there will be a lot of lonely people in the future.
I don’t know how to cheer you up. Between the articles on praising small breasted women and excessive porn use, you probably think a man’s scrotum doesn’t house his testicles, but his heart and his mind. I can tell you that I find kindness to be a very attractive quality in a woman. We all have a need to feel attractive, but as long as your life partner finds you sexually attractive, that’s really all we ultimately can hope for.
There is a lot unsaid on what people find attractive and I think a lot is actually undefinable. It’s easy to say I like women with smaller breasts, but how the hell do I explain the very unique personality of the woman I loved? I can say nice, sweet, caring, but it doesn’t do it justice.
I think we men also find it hard to talk about other features of women so we don’t appear to be a certain way. I use to think that being sweet, talking about liking a woman who is nice, caring, etc, would be a guaranteed ticket to friendzone based on stupid shit I learned when young. Showing the more feminine side can be seen as a major risk, it can be easier to just say we like nice women with nice tits, great ass, etc whilst beating our chests.
You believe that people should not be judged or valued solely or primarily on the basis of their youth, physical attractiveness, etc. I agree.
But you seem to suggest that a person’s other good attributes and qualities (the non-physical and non-sexual ones) are not sufficiently valued unless they provoke a sexual, carnal response like lust? Intelligence, character, integrity, compassion, humor, wit, etc. are not physical, carnal traits. Why would they or why should they provoke a physical, carnal attraction?
I suppose that sometimes some of these non-physical character attributes can influence a physical attraction. But most of the time, probably not. Just because a person finds another person to be intelligent, charming, impressive or otherwise laudable, it does not follow that the person will or should therefore find the other person sexually attractive. Does that mean that their positive regard and affection for this other person is somehow deficient because it never becomes physical or sexual in nature?
When persons complain of being in the “Friendzone,” they often complain about how their supposed platonic qualities (assuming they have any) do not translate into sexual attraction or sexual reciprocation from other people. We tell these complaining people that their supposed good attributes and traits do not entitle them to the sexual company of others, and also that they should not view platonic, non-sexual affirmation as somehow debased or inferior.
But some people seem to think that sexual attraction and sexual response are the only true indications of their value, even when it comes to the non-sexual, non physical aspects of themselves. And I guess it’s not just Nice Guys ™ or “Friendzone” males who might subscribe to that.
Most of the time, I guess. But things like intelligence, character and humor are not necessarily permanent, thanks to things like Alzheimer’s and dementia.
I see a lot of discussion here about what people should be attracted to first. Some people say minds, some faces, some bodies. But the last time I checked, attraction and where it comes from isn’t something we can choose. If I were to suggest, for example, that it’s wrong for men to be attracted to other men, and that they should be attracted to women instead, I would (rightfully) be shunned from polite society. But isn’t it just the same to suggest that men should be attracted to women’s minds or faces rather than their bodies? Attraction is an immutable characteristic outside of conscious control, and attempts to bring it under conscious control have disastrous outcomes (see ex-gay therapy for a prime example).
Behavior, however, is well within our control. None of us has the right to allow our attractions to cause us to behave in ways that violate the consent of others, and that includes consenting to be stared at or flirted with.
The grey area comes in how to appropriately obtain consent to look at someone’s body. The cues about whether or not such attention is welcome can be extremely subtle. No one walks up to a stranger on the subway and politely asks “excuse me, but may I stare at your body for a moment?”
I *LOVE* your last paragraph! Absolutely wonderful!!!
The issue about the cues being very subtle is key. If I recall correctly, women are perhaps, on average, better at reading body language than men are on average? This might be where some of the upset over being looked at is coming from–women giving subtle cues that the looking is not welcome but a certain percentage of the men in question misreading or not being able to read the cues? And the women not understanding that those men weren’t understanding the women’s body language? I had a mortifying hand-knee incident once where the guy clearly was not clueing in on VERY clear body language on my part (rapid drop in conversation responses a bit prior, stopping all looking in the eye, stopping smiling, turning body in other direction, pointedly moving chair away). Despite all this, it was very clear in his face that he did NOT at all understand that his hand was quite unwelcome. Obviously an extreme case, but it’s made me much more understanding of less pronounced possible misunderstandings of body language. People do not always “read” what those of us skilled in body language think is quite obvious.
Christy, I highly suggest all women especially learn how to voice their discomfort. Not all people can understand body language, or they might be focused on one area of the body that appears calm whilst another is showing the “getaway” signal that they don’t see. If someone puts their hand on your leg and you don’t say anything, not saying anything could be confused for consent (stupid I know), because that person may be brought up with the idea that if someone doesn’t want you to touch them, they’ll let you know by saying it, or hitting you.
Quite often some people rely on speech a lot for communication, so they don’t hear the no and don’t realize it’s bad. Body language is too ambiguous and relies too much on guesswork for some people to understand clearly. A direct “no, please take your hand away” is much much more likely to get the point across I believe as it’s a clear indication that you don’t want their hand there.
In my teen years I was socially outcasted quite a bit and didn’t get to learn quite a bit of the body language skills that others who were very social learned. I only recently learned more about it all, and there was a period of time that I wouldn’t have been able to clearly read your body language, which is actually a large part of why I never touched someone first, always waited for them to touch me. It’s quite confusing to have a female friend touch your leg or arm in a friendly manner and not knowing how they knew it was acceptable to do, then being scared to touch them back wondering if I am expected to reciprocate the touch or not touch them because they’re a female. I’m still unsure on when it’s ok, or expected to touch people and I default to not touching them to ensure I don’t make them uncomfy. Which sadly probably makes them feel like I am cold and distant.
Not all people know how to voice their discomfort either.
@ Archy
“If someone puts their hand on your leg and you don’t say anything, not saying anything could be confused for consent”
God, I hope not. I just counted 5 instances where a woman at work put her hand on my thigh. One actually grabbed me there. I’ve been there for 16 years and many of the women were there for several years prior to the incidents. I just didn’t think once in 10 or so years warranted a trip to HR or even a potentially embarrassing comment. It would be bad if these women thought I wanted to bone them especially the married ones.
Yes, I *very* much agree people should be more direct verbally. This incident prompted me to find out a ton more about the huge variation in people’s ability to read body language and how important it is to be verbally direct in all types of areas. This man so clearly did not know he was doing something I considered offensive. And I recall a time or two before I had considered all this when women had been showing their interest in a friend of mine who can’t read body language well at all, and he had no idea. (Now that I know more, I would be sure to point out their interest to him! And let the gal in question know she should take matters into her own hands more directly.)
“I also know many women in their 50′s trying to online date and getting no where with men their age and they are filled with pain about it.”
Just outa curiosity do you know men in their 50′s, and do they get much success with online dating? The most common thing I see of men talking about online dating is the lack of messages they get from women, whilst women get plenty of messages, are these women also initiating or waiting for the message to come? (genuine curiosity, not to negate). I have a profile on an online dating site and only received one message in years, to someone that wanted to talk and then stopped. I set it up to see if I could get any messages without actually sending any first, doesn’t seem to work being passive for me.
I’ve seen quite a few relationships where men date women a few years younger, one of teh most succesful ones I’ve seen, he is 30 and she is 19. Don’t think I’ve ever seen an older woman date a younger man in my circle of friends. My father was 5 years older than my mother, I wonder how common that is and what the reasoning is behind it? Most people I know are generally 0-2 year difference though. I had a fling once with someone about 6 years younger than I was, her 18 and me 24, but she was quite mature and I didn’t feel older than her at all really. Her age didn’t bother me at all, I go by maturity and ignore the age (18+ of course only), as long as they’re mature and there is no difference in our intelligence/maturity that could cause a power imbalance then it’s all good in my books. Though I haven’t felt different since my 21st birthday, maybe that will change after 30. The women my age here, most are taken and most are actually married with kids….I might have to date someone 20-23ish as the rest are pretty much taken!
OKCupid had a post about that:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-case-for-an-older-woman/
It looks like men generally say they’ll date anyone roughly their age or younger, and their messaging habits seem to bear that out. Women generally say they’ll only date anyone roughly their own age or a tad older, but their messaging habits are inconsistent with that and suggest that they’re actually more flexible than that. (Then again, since women do a minority of the initiating messaging, there may be some bias to the data. E.g. the subset of women that frequently send initiating messages may be more likely to be okay with breaking norms in the first place.)
Anecdotally, my experience on OKCupid was that the large majority of women older than myself had an “acceptable age range” that had me squarely outside. So I just never messaged those particular women.
This, to me, is a huge part of the problem. We have a set of social expectations that in male/female flirtations the male will always be the instigator, and when the advance is unwelcome the male is said to be objectifying the female.
I don’t know why women don’t instigate as often as men, but I imagine it has something to do with the virgin/whore duality thing, and not wanting to be slut-shamed. Also, the social expectation that women will be subservient plays a role.
If we could get to a place where women were more comfortable approaching men, initiating interactions, sending messages on OK Cupid, and generally asking for what they want rather than keeping their desires hidden, I think a lot of these problems would melt away.
I think that part of it is that even women believe that men always want sex. You can see it in these posts. When men walk up to me it’s because they want my body. Some guys aren’t comfortable with women initiating. Part of that has to do with the women being overly aggressive using touch as well as words early in the interaction. Men run away. Other times a man simply is not interested.
If women believe that a man always wants sex, rejection must be twice as hard on them. I’ve had women call me gay because I turned them down. Looking back I guess if they thought I would screw anything except them, it must have been very damaging to their self esteem.
@ Julie
One thing I’ve been curious about and I apologize in advance if this strikes a nerve, but I have friends who will not date women who have children. I remember inquiring about a woman once and instead of giving me her name, my friend responded she’s got a kid. I found out later that she doesn’t have a husband, but decided against it anyway (not that the kid mattered to me for dating purposes at least).
I’ve only witnessed (or been aware of) street harassment once, when a guy called out to a female friend I was walking with. I guess women don’t experience objectification as much when they’re with a guy, but do they get objectified less when they are with their children?
@Julie, probably a mix but it depends upon the person. Why I don’t want to date someone with kids is because I’d like to experience the childfree time in dating, be able to go camping, etc at the drop of the hat ALONE, not rely on babysitters anytime we want to do something, have more money for ourselves, go on trips etc. Children are expensive both financially and time-wise (at least here in Aus:P) and not everyone has access to grandma/grandpa that can look after them. EVERY couple I’ve heard from who has children has proven this to me and I am at a stage of my life that I cannot handle looking after a dependant, nor wish to date someone which might lead to me becoming the father-figure. It’s a huge responsibility, there will most likely be times I’d be expected to look after the kid alone if it was a serious relationship and probably be expected to help pay for her or the kid/s sometimes.
I’d like to have my own children ONE DAY, but wayyy in the future after I’ve had my fun in youth, after I’ve built a home (not a house), have stability in my life, be past my illness, etc.
With my friends that don’t want to date someone with kids it’s because of not wanting to raise another mans child sometimes, but mostly because of the responsibility involved. We’re young though, 20-30, I expect this may change in our 30′s or 40′s and won’t matter as much. As I myself age I am more open to the possibility of dating a single mother but until I either become well off in income that the cost to raise a child is pittance (ie, 100k+ a year or more) then it turns me off.
My life goals atm involve starting a business (10-30k depending on equipment and if I need a studio), having a fully setup workshop for my shed (about 5-10k), doing at least one decent holiday (1-5k, maybe a smidgen more), possibly a pilots license ($$$$$), and a home (200k+). I am currently a low income earner and I am studying + working on my health to increase my earning ability to afford these things, a child can put a major damper on those goals and they’re goals I don’t want to budge on.
If I end up getting someone pregnant of course I’ll have to rethink the goals but for a decade I had pretty much F all, earned barely anything, have very few assets, so I’m in my selfish buy up assets mode to set myself up for a long time. I guess I am materialistic, I feel a sense of pride of having a car that works, a sound system to enjoy driving, tools in workshop so I have the freedom to build and create + save money by doing the handyman jobs vs paying a tradie here (tradies are $100/hr or more here in Aus).
As you can tell the biggest concern I have is finances, but I spent a decade after school being a dependant with very little money to spend on myself so finances have always been a major stress for me. The confidence boost I got from buying stuff for my car, fixing it up, buying a decent camera for my photography etc was enormous.
If I had to look after a kid right now I’d probably be extremely anxious, extremely nervous over money, my ability and skills with raising kids, worry over the current pedophile hysteria in Australia as a male which means I’d be scared to actually hug the child especially if he/she wasn’t my own by birth, my free time would diminish (which is badly needed for my recovery from illness and time to study), I can barely afford to feed myself so at this point in life it’s too much strain. I would not be a good candidate for someone with a child anyway due to how little I earn and my health, hopefully in a few years it’ll be a different story. I suspect there are many men who feel similar stresses, especially worrying about finances. The cost of living would have to drop considerably to make having a child an attractive prospect for me personally, but I don’t judge others who want that, their goals will be different than mine. It’s just baggage I can’t deal with in 2012 with my current life, maybe 2016 will be different.
That said if the woman is well off, able to take care of the child on her own financially, requires no time or resources from me to look after the child or herself, where we can just be independant whilst dating, and if we had plenty of time to get away just the 2 of us and plenty of time for romance then I’d consider it. It may be a shitty thing to say but I can’t even afford to look after a woman let alone kids, truth be told in my current stage of life I don’t expect I will find a partner until I am earning at least the average income and working fulltime. Being a low-income earner I know full well the stereotypes placed on people like me, and I haven’t got much faith that many women would even consider dating me until I was working full-time, earned at least as much as they do vs being a student and struggling for funds. Add the fact I am overweight in a society that loves thinner people then I haven’t got too much going for me in the dating game.
“I also know many women in their 50′s trying to online date and getting no where with men their age and they are filled with pain about it.”
There are men who are into 50 year old women – the ones that 50 year old women divorce.
If ALL men cared about were youthful (20s, early 30s) looks, men wouldn’t stay married past their 40s or certainly their 50s. Men would be the ones initiating the majority of divorces. Instead, it turns out that the vast majority of divorces in that age bracket (actually all age brackets) are initiated by women, not men. 50+ year old women initiate more divorces than any other demographic. The men are willing to remain married but they get served divorce papers and told that resistance is futile.
And, reportedly, these divorces are not all based on infidelity. The women report that they aren’t getting what they feel they want and need. So, they imitate the divorce and proceed to post a picture of their 50 year old face and body on match.com, looking for 50 year old men – only to find that 38-40 year old women are also looking for 50 year old men. And, given the choice, many 50 year old men will often go for a 38 year old over a 50 year old.
My personal opinion is, if you get to be 50 years old and you’re still married (especially if you’re a woman), try, try, try to work it out because 50 year old guys are probably not going to be knocking your door down (although 60-65 year old guys would probably be happy to talk to you!)
It’s like an older, high-mileage car. It’s worth more to you than anyone else because you appreciate it’s value; you know it’s a good car, even if it ain’t what it used to be. To anyone else, it’s just another old car that might break down on them at anytime. Yeah, it’s got a few dings and a couple things don’t work like the used to, but it’s always gotten you where you needed to go and it still runs well. So, you’re better off keeping it for your kid when they start driving. Others simply won’t appreciate its value like you do.
So, if you’re 50 year old husband has gotten on your last nerve (who doesn’t from time to time?), ask yourself if it’s better to try to work things out with him somehow, or risk being alone for the rest of your days.
If the car metaphor was to hold then the 50 year old women should be seeking 30 year old men as well. Cause ain’t like 50 year old men don’t have dings, or could break down in their 50′s. Actually, comparing people to cars is more akin to objectification in my book, than any glance at my breasts would be. And I’m not accusing you of that, but I figure there are folks that think that metaphor makes great real sense.
Why do 50 year old men choose women 20 years younger and 50 year old women seek men their age. It’s not like 50 year old women don’t find younger men attractive and men in their 50′s are prone to a lot of health problems. Is it because the 50 year old men CAN attract those women? For looks? Or is it money? Or they just shun the women their age cause they’ve been dumped by them?
Or do we all believe that if we can attract the young, we are still young? And thus less close to death? Are the mid life crises experienced by the 50 something set just that different?
I feel bad for the widowed 50-60 year old women who can’t find dates…
The key to remember is that what men are attracted to and what they expect to attract are often two different things. And most guys don’t just find one type of woman–his own age group–attractive. A man can still appreciate youthful femininity while being grounded and appreciative of a mature woman his own age as well. They’re not mutual exclusives. And really, as long as said guy is not wandering into pedophile territory, there’s not a damn thing disagreeable about it.
For most guys, the aspects they find physically attractive–smooth skin, lithe body, curves, etc.–tend to be found in younger women. Though they can be found in older women as well. But why on earth would he no longer find that attractive because HE’S getting on in the years or is less attractive in those aspects? I’m sorry, but that just makes no sense.
There is nothing wrong with finding it attractive. I find smooth skin, flat bellies and firm muscles attractive too. But were I single, I’d not reject men my age in favor only of the physical appearance of the younger set. If women in their 50′s cannot find men to date because all the men are seeking younger women, it’s hard to to see that the reason they are choosing women is based predominantly on physical appearance rather than the whole person. And if that is true, so be it. But I’m sure it’s still hard for those women to accept. Just as if the only reason a woman chose a man was based on car or house or clothing and how that indicated wealth and none of his other qualities. I hear men saying this hurts them, makes them feel like a utility. I hate that women have made men feel that way.
It seems to be there is utilitizing men based on wealth and objectifying women based on looks and frankly, it means that lots of people are missing out on amazing relationships with people. And I also hear that there are a lot of men who are lonely and seeking partners so why discount someone eager but older, if it meant sex, companionship and good times? Why reject a man with less money if it meant you could have a great relationship?
Going to make some wild as hell guesses in this, please debunk if you can since I hope they aren’t true.
“And I also hear that there are a lot of men who are lonely and seeking partners so why discount someone eager but older, if it meant sex, companionship and good times? Why reject a man with less money if it meant you could have a great relationship?”
Possible reasons for some could be that they just don’t find them sexually attractive, could be the sex drive for men and women is actually a bit different on the average and once menopause sets in the sexual attraction drops hugely (a guess, no idea if real). I wouldn’t be surprised if fertile LOOKING women (as in don’t visibly appear to be past fertile age) is far less sexually attractive than women who are of a fertile age. If the biological drive favours reproduction then there is little use of chasing after women who are past the age of reproduction. If that drive exists in that way it could either kill or lower sexual attraction in men. Not sure if a study was ever done on this though, nor do I neccessarily believe it. It’s in the couldbetruebutneedevidence category for me. I truly hope someone debunks it cuz that’d be a shitty thing to look forward to for both genders.
So if they find these women far less attractive then to not discount them would mean settling for someone you have little attraction for from that silly biological drive standpoint. Of course there are other methods of attraction that could get around that but it might be a reason why these men are favouring younger women.
Would the same exist in women? Doubt it, no point in needing a man that can produce sperm at that age if you can’t get pregnant from the reproductive sense, so this tells me there is far more to attraction than just reproduction and sexual attraction. Only one gender has their reproductive ability turn off from what I know, this could skew the results.
I’d like to hear from older men and women on the subject and seriously want this guess to be debunked. When I say attractive in the following, I am asking about sexual attraction alone, not personality.
If you’re a 50+ man: Do you find women post-reproductive age sexually attractive? Do you find them as attractive as women in the reproductive age?
If you’re a 50+ woman:Do you find men your own age attractive? Do you find men after 50 attractive? After 60? Do you find men you’re own age to be as attractive as men younger in the age range that is equivalent to a female reproductive life?
From what I hear there seems to be a faster drop-off in attraction for women vs men as they age, I am extremely curious to understand why that may happen. I believe partly it’s due to society but what influenced that society? I have a suspicion there is a biological instinct at play that influences much of it.
@ Archy
“So if they find these women far less attractive then to not discount them would mean settling for someone you have little attraction for”
A female friend told me once that when you get to know someone, they don’t look the same. I didn’t think that was true, but have found it to be true at least for me. I guess the problem is getting to know a person you won’t approach because you don’t initially find them sexually attractive. My young female admirer wouldn’t be considered conventionally attractive, but sometimes when I look at her, I see a pretty girl. I strongly suspect that she doesn’t view me as the best out there, just the best attainable.
I didn’t pursue her initially because the physical attraction wasn’t there. It still isn’t to a large extent, but it’s been replaced with concern. She told me once that she was resigning herself to never being with a man. I almost offered to have sex with her or at least allow her to examine me. I know we sometimes confuse having sex with being in love and it wouldn’t have done her any favors. She’s a nice person who makes enough to be the primary earner in her family. She owns a home, which is worth more than mine, and a car. I think she undervalues herself. Sometimes I wonder if good, younger men are in such short supply that she thinks a man born almost 2 decades before her is a good catch.
I think many of us in the younger generation are more shy with women and more afraid of rejection, but that’s just a guess. Depends also on where you are, like where I am the nightlife is pretty terrible and I’m actually at a loss on where to meet decent women who are SINGLE in this small town, seems so many are taken and usually have families by my age (27). I think many of the younger women leave the small town to the cities for study and careers, it’s a rural type town and more male-type jobs I’d say.
Though I heard that in some places the women outnumber the men quite a bit so the pool of eligible men is limited compared to the amount of women waiting for someone to hit on them.
I’d say there is some leeway in people that are neutral attraction, but it may not be enough in all cases to sustain a decent relationship.
“If the car metaphor was to hold then the 50 year old women should be seeking 30 year old men as well.”
They are free to. There ARE some 30 year olds that would welcome it, although not necessarily for a lifelong relationship.
“Cause ain’t like 50 year old men don’t have dings, or could break down in their 50′s.”
True.
“Actually, comparing people to cars is more akin to objectification in my book, than any glance at my breasts would be. And I’m not accusing you of that, but I figure there are folks that think that metaphor makes great real sense.”
Then, you’ve missed the point that I tried to make painfully obvious. How about this: it may be wiser to stick it out with your pain-in-the-a** husband since men his age aren’t necessarily looking for women your age. At least he appreciates you enough to stay with you. At least you don’t have to compete with 30 year olds to get him. At least you know what you’re going to get with him. I do have sympathy for widow but frankly not all that much for women who unilaterally seek divorces because they aren’t interested anymore.
“Why do 50 year old men choose women 20 years younger and 50 year old women seek men their age.”
Some older women do go after young men – hence, the term cougars. Also, 50 year olds don’t always choose 30 year olds.
“Is it because the 50 year old men CAN attract those women?”
That may be part of it. For some reason, young women are often attracted to older men more than vice-versa.
“For looks? Or is it money? Or they just shun the women their age cause they’ve been dumped by them?”
Probably all of the above.
“Or do we all believe that if we can attract the young, we are still young?”
Yeah, some of that too probably.
“I feel bad for the widowed 50-60 year old women who can’t find dates…”
Me too but I don’t feel sorry for the ones that divorced men who weren’t cheaters or abusers, because he wasn’t romantic enough or something like that.
Well said, Christy. That does seem to be the bone of contention: the unnecessary equation of sexual thoughts about someone we don’t know = objectification. It doesn’t work that way. To think of someone as an object means to actively disrespect them. A 1/4 second longer-than-necessary glance and a quick palpitation of the heart do not constitute this. A quickly-stifled, but vivid and vaguely sexual thought does not amount to this either. I doubt very many women take such as objectification. Just like I’m sure most guys are respectful enough to TRY to be discreet. Most of us aren’t actively “looking” to begin with. It’s a field of view thing for most of us.
What does constitute objectification is when the guy actually goes out of his way to show it. Brazen staring (as in more than a few seconds,) wolf-whistling, cat-calling, crass comments or lewd gesturing. That kind of stuff. Those are surer signs of objectification than a vague feeling of unease that may have nothing at all to do with how a guy is behaving.
sorry, I meant to reply to the comment at the bottom.
Thanks, Travis. I fully agree.
I think it’s really too bad that there is a feeling out there that one must “quickly stifle” sexual thoughts and that doing otherwise is rude or bad. (I’m not saying I think you advocate the “quick stifle”; I’m just commenting on the practice since it was mentioned.)
With regard to the gazing/staring, I agree that someone who goes out of his or her way to purposely make someone uncomfortable through staring is behaving in a threatening manner that could well also be objectifying.
On the other hand, I think that getting the hang of how long it is acceptable to look is much easier for some than others, and I personally wouldn’t call someone out for looking at me too long except under pretty extreme circumstances. The difference between an acceptable-length glance and one that is too long is a very fine differentiation that some people just can’t internalize the way others can. I don’t want to make someone who doesn’t have that skill feel bad about doing something pretty natural–taking a look at someone of the gender they are attracted too. Certainly if someone KNOWS they are looking long enough to make another uncomfortable or has the ability to tell when a flirting or lustful glance is unwelcome but does it anyway, is engaging in rude or even threatening behavior.
“Why do 50 year old men choose women 20 years younger and 50 year old women seek men their age. It’s not like 50 year old women don’t find younger men attractive and men in their 50′s are prone to a lot of health problems. Is it because the 50 year old men CAN attract those women? For looks? Or is it money? Or they just shun the women their age cause they’ve been dumped by them? ”
I’m a lil confused if you mean all men or some men. It seems like you are generalizing otherwise the comparison would be silly, so I’m curious as to why you assume that is how it is? Is it just you have far more single 50 year old female friends vs 50 year old single male friends or is it just how it is there? Where I live I see plenty of 50+ being single in both genders and plenty dating in the same age range, so I’m wondering if it’s really that most men are choosing much younger women or just having a certain group of friends can lead us to believe that.
I don’t want to negate your experience and I apologize if it sounds that way, I’m just simply a bit confused on which men and women you’re talking about and also wondering if there are other issues that may be harming these women’s attractiveness apart from age (weight, how they dress, how they act, etc).
As others have said 50 year old women can and do date younger, and 50 year old men can and do date the same age range, even older so the generalization fails on that account. Or did you mean a large portion but not all men?
“I feel bad for the widowed 50-60 year old women who can’t find dates…”
Hope you also feel bad for the poor schmucks that died:P But in this age range you’ll find men die far more, 5 years age gap between life expectancy so I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a major lack of men that age to date as they’re 6 feet under. There will be at least a 5 year period where far more women will be single due to the men dying earlier. That could explain part of the lack of dates for these women, if a man lives to that age he’s going to find himself the pick of the litter.
Maybe these men are just more willing to try their luck at dating younger whilst women feel more of a reserve, from what I see in society it’s more acceptable for men to date younger than the reverse although that seems to be changing with the cougars.
Question: Are your 50+ year old female friends willing to date older men?
The car metaphor is terrible if it is referring to women, I’m surprised it hasn’t copped more heat. It may be true for some but I highly doubt it’s true for all.
Eric M:
“If ALL men cared about were youthful (20s, early 30s) looks, men wouldn’t stay married past their 40s or certainly their 50s. Men would be the ones initiating the majority of divorces.”
Oh that’s easy-there’s a saying called “cheaper to keep her.” Most men cant afford to keep getting divorced. In addition consider the money it would cost to court a new woman and get remarried.
Oftentimes men just dont want to rock the boat. The solution is to go out and find young women to have on the side. I guess in your language, he wants to keep around the relic, but really he wants to ride the new one(s). He wants a car collection.
Why aren’t 30 year old men trying to get 50 year old women? Some of them want biological kids and don’t want the rigors fertility treatment.
A lot of older women I see don’t take much pride in their appearance. Let’s be real, most women that age are not Courtney Cox or Salma Hayek (I dont know if they are quite 50, but they were the first to come to mind). Lets face it, men like for women to dress and look cute. Ive known women who thought women shouldnt dress really nice (short skirt, heels, etc) past the age of 35, or even 25. I doubt men think like that…
Alice,
I don’t know where you live or the company you keep but you have my sympathies. I personally know hundreds of men who actually love their wives (me included) for things in addition to their physical beauty. Believe it or not, many of us married for love and made a lifelong commitment, through the ups and downs of life, come what may. I’m one of them.
Many of us genuinely appreciate the sacrifices our wives made to bear and give birth to our children and help raise them, and love them for that. Many of us realize that one of the very best things we can do for our children is to love their mother, to be a living example of what love, loyalty, and commitment mean, and how it can grow as time goes on and our lives overlap.
It’s unfortunate that some think men to be so inferior to women that we don’t value anything beyond women’s sexual/physical attributes.
“A lot of older women I see don’t take much pride in their appearance. Let’s be real, most women that age are not Courtney Cox or Salma Hayek (I dont know if they are quite 50, but they were the first to come to mind).”
Where I live most women in their 40s and 50s take reasonable care of themselves and try to be as attractive as possible.
“Lets face it, men like for women to dress and look cute. Ive known women who thought women shouldnt dress really nice (short skirt, heels, etc) past the age of 35, or even 25. I doubt men think like that…”
Good grief.
“Short skirts and heels” are not necessarily synonymous. I’m a believer in age-appropriate dress. Women (or men) in their 40s or 50s just look silly (IMO) trying to dress like their teenage or very early 20s children.
Eric, thanks, that was a lovely response.
(And I certainly agree that dressing to complement oneself changes as one matures!)
Christy – you’re welcome.
I meant to say (there at the end) “short skirts and heels” are not necessarily synonymous with ‘dressing and looking nice.’
It must be pretty terrible to have to read it, I hope what I have to say helps a little bit to lower that pain.
“I don’t judge men for money. I think judging men on a wallet or earning potential is shallow as hell. And not really useful in terms of what kind of emotional life I’d have with him. Any man I’d commit to will also get old and baggy, saggy, gray etc. That’s not a sin, that’s a holy story on the body of how birth to death writes upon us.”
I’m glad, hopefully there are more of you than more of the judgers.
The sad fact (well, what I perceive in the time I’ve been alive) the 2 common drawcards stereotypically are power/money/status for men, looks/beauty/etc for women. Women’s is locked into a certain age range depreciating over time, starting off high n going low, whilst mens starts off low going to high since young men usually have a lot less cash and power than older men. So for those who value just those 2 traits it boils down to sillyness like young women are the best, and older men are best. Women’s look depreciate but a man can still earn money and power past 40, in fact most people in power are over 40 that I see.
What do women have to offer after 35? Plenty, just depends what you want. If you want a natural family without the hassle of IVF then you’re better off finding someone younger if it’s a big thing for you. Or you can adopt, try ivf, etc, it’s not until menopause that infertility sets in and we have the means to have children regardless of infertility through adoption so that only rules that age range out for a few people.
If youthful skin is a major drawcard then people will go for younger women, or women who were smart n took skin care seriously (suntanning is bad mmkay, especially in Australia due to skin cancer risks). But I doubt this is the end all, be all of attraction, I see plenty of older people dating people their own age quite successfully.
We all age, our fertility drops, our ability to have natural childbirth diminishes but it doesn’t make someone worthless, they might not be a good match for one person but there are heaps of people around. I’m 27 and find women in their 30′s to still be attractive, 40′s and 50′s is a bit outa my scope at the moment but in 10 years time it’ll probably open up.
I don’t think there is more to appreciate as you age, just different. Some of these issues could be largely instinctual though, quite frankly I think the 18-30 range being the most beautiful probably has quite a bit of mating instinct behind it but also probably quite a lot of social influence too. From everything I see in our society I do believe there is quite a lot of instinct involved, I’ve never heard of 40+ year olds being thought of as more beautiful than 20+ year olds in the majority of what I’ve seen n heard. The only 40+ year old men I’ve heard thought of as more attractive than the younger men by some women is when they’ve got a bank account in the millions to billions and exceptionally good looks like George Clooney. But it seems like Ryan Gosling stole his thunder:P
What I personally believe n feel, well currently 21-35 year olds are what I find the most beautiful, both physically n mentally. After 35 I feel the difference in age leaves me feeling like I can’t really connect with them. I’m guessing this will change as I age and my tastes will change along with it, though something that does appear constant is physical attraction alone seems to be the most around the 20-30 year old mark before gravity, skin damage, etc kicks in fully. Doesn’t mean older women aren’t physically attractive though and to date someone I need more than just looks in a partner, personality wise I find women slightly older than I am to be the most attractive. But that is me taking guesses at what I find attraction, because attraction “pops up” (more than just sexual attraction) randomly and I can’t always say exactly what it is that I find attractive about someone. This is why I think people need to be careful about READING what someone finds attractive because what we say we want doesn’t always mean that’s what we go for.
I am curious, what age were the posters who suggested older women have less to offer? are they the same age as the women they are bagging out? Or are they younger themselves looking for someone their own age? (not trying to negate, just genuinely curious if it’s a particular age range that says it the most here on the GMP)
Can we choose what we are attracted to though? I never chose to find younger women more attractive, it’s just there, just like I didn’t choose to find thinner women more attractive. Was it society that dictated it, biology? A mix of both? I have no control over what I find attractive, I’ve tried to force myself to be attracted to someone in the past and failed, tried to change my attraction but no luck. The older men who find the much younger women attractive, do they choose that? I’d personally choose to find the most common type of woman the most attractive if I could, chances of finding one would be excellent. But I’m not sure we can choose to like or love people based on certain attributes, though diversifying our media would be a start. But that’s just the most PHYSICALLY attractive category I’m talking about, doesn’t mean the rest are ugly.
I’ve had one experience of love and when that happened, NO ONE could ever match her beauty, even supermodels weren’t as attractive. This love bug can happen to people at any age, with people of all ages, so I’m not sure I’d put too much weight into what people say about the viability of women 35+, I see no shortage of older people dating. It must hurt quite a bit to read though, I could guess it hurts similar to how I feel when I hear people talk about fat people, or men who don’t earn much, a shitty feeling that makes you feel like you aren’t even human, not even dateable. But luckily I’ve been proven wrong on that as I’ve had people who have wanted me throughout the years, and I choose to focus on that fact instead of words some random on the net says about who is more attractive to date. That’s what helps me get by. We should all listen to those who find us attractive and place more weight on their words, whilst also asking others to be respectful in what they say.
I think most of the men who are writing about preferring younger woman are writing from a place of pain and bitterness. It’s not surprising that lonely forty or fifty-year-old men are still fixated on the women that they weren’t able to date in their twenties or thirties. And perhaps in their bitterness hurting others does feel good to them. It isn’t good, but it’s not surprising.
When I look at ordinary couples I know, couples in their twenties to couples in their seventies, I see hardly any age disparity. (The greatest is between two men, fifty-five and seventy-five, both attractive but not particularly young looking.) I’ve seen middle-aged men and women divorce, and inevitably both date/remarry within their same age group. Perhaps these middle-aged men are secretly settling for women their own age, but I don’t think so; they certainly never express that. I’m a forty-year-old straight man and I would have no interest in dating a twenty-year old woman. The only man I know who has expressed interest in dating a younger woman has never dated at all, who is terribly insecure and who would be intimidated by a woman his own age. It isn’t right or smart, but the likeliest outcome for him is that he never will have any relationship at all.
” Or are we good for conversation, humor, things in common but just not sex? But certainly not attractive enough to objectify anymore….”
Wait, I thought objectification was bad, wrong, objectionable, shouldn’t be done? So, now you’re troubled when it stops happening? Shouldn’t that be a relief? If you’re noticed it, finally!, is based excludovely on things other than being young and hot, isn’t that what you’ve been arguing in favor of – for days now?
As for me, I could’ve married any number of attractive women but I chose Mrs. Eric M. for reasons over and above her physical attributes. Now 20 years later I have many, many more reasons, even though she’s not 20 anymore.
I am actually arguing against physical objectification if you read carefully enough. I’m quite glad you did what you did by marrying Mrs. M. That’s not objectifying. My point is that there are always reasons to appreciate someone other than the physical (and in additional to the physical).
I’ve been, also if you’ve noticed, pointing out that looking and appreciating isn’t the crux of objectifying as we all do that. It’s a totalizing based on one thing. “Men appreciate the young women more than the old based on looks.” As if there wasn’t anything BUT a physical look to appreciate.
I think women, much like men, would appreciate being appreciated both for their looks and their personality at all stages of life.
“I am actually arguing against physical objectification if you read carefully enough.”
Yes, you did say that. But, I commented on your expression of regret when it stops happening. If you oppose it, why the disappointment when it’s no longer being done?
“My point is that there are always reasons to appreciate someone other than the physical (and in additional to the physical).”
Not always. You can absolutely appreciate a stranger’s beauty/attractiveness for a few seconds and go on with your day, never meeting them. It’s in the high 90s here, and women are dressed accordingly. In the few seconds that I see them, I don’t have the time or inclination to imagine having sex with any of them but I may enjoy the view for a few seconds (precisely as many of them clearly intended, based on what they wore) and never think about them again in life.
“I’m quite glad you did what you did by marrying Mrs. M. That’s not objectifying.”
I’m glad too. She’s a blessing. According to this article, objectify her and should stop it.
Per his definition, I objectify my wife of 20+ years all the time by peeking down shirt when she bends over. By routinely staring at her derriere in her jeans (or less), not noticing ANYTHING else, including her winning personality. By routinely staring at her thighs while we’re in the car and her skirt has ridden up a bit, having nothing to do with her fine qualities.
As much as I love her with all my heart, those acts are purely appreciation of her physical attributes, just like when I first saw her before we met. According to this article, despite the fact that I love my wife, have been a loyal husband of 20+ years, and am a good father (by all accounts) and provider, etc., because I lust after my wife’s body parts, I am objectifying her.
The writer thinks it’s wrong and that I need to stop it, but Mrs. Eric M. totally disagrees. She tells me that that I better never stop.
We are not talking about the same things at all. You aren’t objectifying your wife. You see her as a full human being. As I said, I would hope to be seen as a full human being by men in my life (dates, friends, lovers, etc) no matter the age, and I hope to see the men in my life fully no matter the age. I’ve also said that looking and appreciating isn’t objectifying save that all of us sum up people based on minute data we pull in in seconds. and that the more we can see people as more than the sum of a part or two the better.
“We are not talking about the same things at all. You aren’t objectifying your wife.”
Let me say this clearly: I agree with you. HOWEVER, this article does not.
According to the argument presented here, I do, in fact, objectify my own wife. This objectification concept seems to try its best to cast as wide a net as possible so as to cast as negative a light on men as possible. It becomes a no-win situation.
Yes, the article defines objectification in a highly unconventionally, contentiously, and problematically.
Gah! In a highly unconventional, contentious, and problematic manner.
That’s not objectification, Eric. If it is, then sign me up. If it is so, then I’ve objectified many a lover, and many men who have adored and respected me have objectified me. I’ve taken notice of specific body parts in my men and fixated on them to the exclusion of other things during moments–I still see them as whole people not there solely for my pleasure, and I know it doesn’t make them feel threatened or uncomfortable. I also have male friends who talk to me about other things but who will occasionally talk or joke about how awesome my tits are–even ask to see them. It doesn’t bug me. They still see me as a whole person, we do other things, and they don’t do it in ways that are disrespectful to significant others.
Like I’ve said before, despite the fact that I don’t agree with most of what you say, you sound like the type of husband women dream of. It’s very obvious you love her for many reasons not related to her body, but you can still see her as a sexual being and appreciate the details of her body. The way you talk about your wife is the way I would want a husband to talk about me after 20+ years.
“Like I’ve said before, despite the fact that I don’t agree with most of what you say . . .”
Wait, how is it possible to not agree with every single thing I say? Everyone should. Please spread the word. (JK)
“, you sound like the type of husband women dream of.”
Can I show this to my wife? I’ve been telling her that all these years. Maybe one day she’ll finally get it! LOL!
Seriously, thanks for the kind words. I’m a marriage-for-lifer. We both are. She’s not the 20 year old girl I married, but she’s also far more womanly than that 20 year old, which I now much prefer.
For instance, most women hate their stretch markes, but I enjoy seein ghtem. I love the Mrs.’ stretch marks especially. First, because they are womanly. But, secondly, because they remind me that she sacrificed her body for our babies, something that I can never repay her for.
I do not understand this. Why does so much harm and dread result from the discriminations and preferences of anonymous people whom you will probably never encounter in real life? How do their conjugal prejudices harm your social life and your human interactions? Do the people in your social sphere enact and adhere to this “depressing, alienating, invisiblizing, frightening stuff” which you read from online commentators?
I’m going to break this into parts and give my own opinion on each:
“Objectify:
(1) To stare, gawk, or check out women and their bodies and body parts.
I don’t usually consider this objectifying. If that’s the only thing a man cares about in a woman, or especially in women in general, that’s objectifying. Generally I assume that if someone is looking at me overlong, they’re appreciating me, and I think it’s only fair to give the benefit of the doubt that given the opportunity they would appreciate more than just my body. There are certainly ways of staring that can appear threatening, however; and regardless of “threat factor,” staring seems to bother many other women more than it does me. Attractiveness of look-er/suitability as mate isn’t an issue for me–in fact, one of the most attractive “gawkers” I’ve noticed was by far the most threatening seeming (and this bore out in a later actual interaction.) I think bodies, personalities, intelligence, etc. should all be part of the equation. A male gaze that enjoys a woman’s body but does not reduce her value solely to her body is a good thing as far as I’m concerned.
(2) To see them as objects (instead of real people)
This is the only part of the original definition that I view as objectification. It is the key, of course.
(3) and to think of them in a sexual way.”
Being heterosexual, I would be in bad shape if men didn’t think of me sexually on occasion.
Bottom line is that both women and men should be treated fairly and appreciated both for their abilities and effectiveness AND for their sexuality, and that appreciation of the sexual component should be expressed in appropriate contexts. (I.e., not the work place, not if you can tell you’re making someone uncomfortable, not in a threatening manner.)
I do think that since there’s a long history of a pretty heavy reduction of women’s importance to their sexuality, it’s going to be a bit longer before many women can feel the way I do–that a lingering stare isn’t necessarily rude but merely appreciation of one part of me, and that the starer would be happy to assume that I am a highly competent and interesting person as well.
Nice comment.Thanks.
Thank you! : )
After I read this story, I drove home and “objectified” at least 40 women along the way, including a handful of high school girls leaving rowing practice. I did it again this morning on my way to work. I have to say, I didn’t feel the slightest bit of shame or guilt. In fact, I found it quite enjoyable. I love women and I can’t stop checking them out. Oh well…
Keep it up buddy. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Vigilance against the kind of mind control crap that some people are pushing here. It’s retarded.
I just wonder where being respectful stops and mind control begins. I had a month long affair in my head with one of my man’s best friends. I masturbated to thoughts of him every morning and undressed him with my eyes every time I saw him. At the end of the day, I did feel guilty about, even though I probably didn’t need to…it’s not like anything happened or that I had any feelings for him or really wanted anything to happen in real life…he just made me tingly. I felt guilty for making him a sexual object and I felt guilty for how I know my man would have felt had he known. Should I not have? I don’t know. I guess we’re all entitled to our fantasies. But how do you be respectful about it?
It’s clear to me that you have given over to slavery of the mind. He doesn’t even know what you’ve done to him in your head, and you’re guilty about it because someone thinks you should?
Really?
That seems like the epitome of an enslaved mind to me. But that’s just my opinion, and as we all know, everyone has one. It doesn’t sound like freedom to me either.
Anyways…
John,
There is a difference between loving women for who they are and loving how they look. I think you are more into the physicality women
After reading through most of this I don’t think I’m any closer to understanding “objectification of women”. Sexual intimacy is as much a spiritual event as a physical one for me so the whole concept doesn’t compute. I’ve known guys who have been locked in on a woman’s physical attributes to the point where it was obvious they had suffered some type of emotional damage in the past. Seems like they should deserve as much sympathy as scorn for their behavior.
I do have a complaint about one thing in the current state of women’s presentation in public. What’s up with some of these fragrances that women are wearing? My path crossed that of a young lady the other day…blonde, very attractive…which didn’t mean anything until I caught a whiff of some kind of fruit like fragrance she was wearing. After that all I could think about for the next ten minutes was “devouring” her. That may sound like it was exhilarating or even fun, but on the contrary it was at least very irritating if not upsetting. I’m not a rapist and I don’t like feeling like one. Any other guys have something similar to this happen to them? I’ve never really liked women’s perfume. It just never did anything for me…until now. If someone has actually discovered some kind of love potion scent it needs to be outlawed, now. And it also makes you hungry…as in for food. Maybe there’s a connection.
And don’t give me the “well, maybe you were just really attracted to her and you didn’t realize it at first”, shtick. She wasn’t my type. And I have a pretty defined type.
Oh and “devouring” means merging with her body, mind, and soul so that I feel and think everything she does for that brief moment of oneness that all begins with the first touch.
So ends my story…
I’ve found fragrances very attractive, one of my fondest memories is a strawberry deodorant a crush of mine wore. If I smell it now, it’s instant happiness again.
R, above, wrote as a partial explanation of why he objectifies women, “[to avoid] a treacherous road of intimacy and vulnerability. . .” I have to give him points for an honest answer from his POV. But I feel a bit like the parent warning a child to stop pulling silly cross-eyes faces or they’d get stuck that way, because, men, the danger really is that avoidance of intimacy does become a habit. I know our culture really encourages this behaviour, but it isn’t very respectful, and most of us really hate it and it makes our skin crawl when we catch you doing it.
“You aren’t objectifying your wife. You see her as a full human being.”
I agree with you. But, the article doesn’t. It describes precisely what I do and calls it objectification.
Sorry. This was meant for Julie.
I think it’s all very nice that we’re trying to overcome our natural human inclination to judge, and I’m all for this. But some of these comments seem very close to thought-policing. And some of this seems to range from the reasonable (“guys need to stop brazenly going out of their way to show that they’re lusting after me”) to the ludicrous “I hate it when guys I don’t find desireable notice that I’m attractive.”
We *shouldn’t* objectify people–that is to say, judge them in crude, derogatory ways that may be false given the fact that we don’t know them. I guess I just don’t understand why judging someone we don’t know on a sexual basis is any worse than, say, cursing a blue streak at the person who cuts us off in traffic. They’re both objectification of people we don’t know. After all, that person who just cut you off MIGHT have a legitimate reason for doing so.
I may be against the “norm”; but I always found women older than my age attractiive. Not removing anything from young girls, but usually, I found older women to have a form of magnetism that for me is hard to describe.
And I had some relationship with older women 40+ they were all (in my eyes beautyfull, even if somebody had a different opinion). And I even got stigmaticed for it, especially from young women (I hardly know a guy who criticised my interst, but who knows). But what I find attractive in some older women, is estetically, their eyes; lot of adult women have happy and wise eyes, and I love them and about that also their general wisedom. Some women are really wise and highly intelligent, and that is a attraction factor for me. The rest is secundary.
About objectification: well I agree with some of the commenters that looking at a beautyfull woman isnt necessary a act of objectification. And neither is sexual lust. But I do agree, that staring and unpolite actions like groping, catcalling ect are sad, damaging, dehumanicing and totally inexcusable.
But mind you, staring isnt necessary scanning a person, with all the conseguences immaginable. Sometimes it happens that your eyes are pointed to a person, and your mind is somewhere else. So actually even if you are seeing that person, doesent mean you are looking to her/him.
It happen to me once, while I was having a relaxed release near a tree. At a D.A.D concert. When a guy approached me in anger, confronting me with the fact that I was flirting with him. WTF O_O lol.
I’m not sure I experience that same magnetism that you describe, but older women definitely have a lot going for them, IMO. I’ve been dating a woman 6 years my senior (she’s in her mid 30′s) for well over a year now, and it’s been great.
I, unfortunately, do not have a broad enough dating experience to really make a good comparison to younger women, though. Everyone is different, so I think there are probably a fair number of mentally/emotionally mature younger women out there. And likewise there are probably a fair number of immature older women out there. But I’m sure the proportion of women who are the former increases with age group. Ditto with men.
In general, I feel like my chances of finding a genuinely good relationship (e.g. where I feel validated and loved and respected, and can actually interact with my partner on an equal level, and where there is minimal BS) are higher amongst older women. And I think my chances of finding a woman who has really come into her own and knows who she is (and has hopefully gotten over gender role BS) are similarly higher amongst older women. Again, there are certainly younger women like this as well. But not quite as many.
But I think one of the reasons that a lot of men go for younger women, though, isn’t that they are actually that much more physically attractive (they often aren’t). Rather, it’s internalized social pressure.
For one thing, men constantly get the message that they’re supposed to be protectors, especially of their partner, and that is a role that is hard to feel like you’re fulfilling with older women. I doubt many guys consciously think about that, but I think it’s part of what can make it just feel like “something’s off” for many men. I think the reverse is also why a lot of women have a hard time dating men that are younger than them (which also annoys me).
I think there’s also a lot of validation that many men experience from dating younger women. Being able to date the demographic that is considered desirable (and who people believe can be picky) is a boost to one’s self-esteem, and can help make one feel attractive, which is something that a lot of guys struggle with in silence. That sort of socially-backed validation of your desirability can be really intoxicating especially for guys who rarely if ever got that validation when they themselves were younger.
I often look into the distance n go off into my daydreamland, or read various posters at the doctors surgery for instance. I wouldn’t be surprised if people thought I was staring at them if I was looking near them, and when I daydream I’m probably unaware I’m looking in their direction as my eyes are on but my mind is looking at something else.
Me too. Sometimes when a woman is talking to me and she never looks away even for an instant, I sometimes feel she’s staring or I get worried that I’m staring so I avert my eyes and down is as good a direction as any and often better as you’re still facing the person. She might be thinking that I’m glancing at her boobs, but I’m really trying to avoid direct eye contact for a couple seconds.
I entirely sympathize with both of you. I don’t know a ton of them, but I get very annoyed by the women I know who have a tendency to both go out of their way too catch men looking at them “too long” and them complain about it. It’s hard to *always* not look, to learn the fine art of looking without getting caught, and especially to train oneself not only to not look, but to make sure that when you’re actually looking elsewhere it doesn’t appear that you might be looking somewhere “inappropriate”. Women who aren’t already sympathetic to this need to learn to be! (Though I do think we’ve sort of been trained to think this way, and some unlearning is in order.) Frankly, I go out of my way to NOT notice when men are looking at me, and if they do realize I noticed them looking, I do NOT make them feel bad about it! I don’t get noticed where I live or work, but outside my area I do tend to be noticed quite a bit. I see zero point to making myself irritated every time I’m away from home or work.
Also, while I think married men should be sensitive to their partners’ views on this sort of thing, and should not deliberately make other women uncomfortable by deliberate blatant leering, I don’t have any issue with my husband taking a look at other women. I know he thinks I’m the right woman for him and that I’m the one he wants to spend time with and have a family with. I wouldn’t want him to have to repress his sexuality to such an extent that he has to pretend I’m the only woman who should ever incite any sexual thoughts in him–that just doesn’t seem natural to me. I want him to be a sexually healthy guy without a ton of hangups!
I blogged on this topic a while ago, after going through a similar process of meditating on the question. I didn’t identify looking at women in public as objectification per-se, although perhaps I should have. What I came to was that my objectification of women comes about as a second best alternative to what I’d really like to be doing, which is striking up a conversation and interacting with the women in question as whole people. I find that many women in public spaces are very closed to the idea of interacting with unknown men, for some very good reasons. I think that this blocks the normal, healthy, sexually charged interactions that would take place between people all the time in a more egalitarian and less patriarchal society – a society in which women didn’t have cause to fear sexual harassment and assault. My whole post is here, if you’re interested. http://sexlessfather.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/you-dont-owe-me-a-smile/
I enjoyed your post. It was very poignant. However I just want to say that it is not only fear of sexual assault or harassment that stops me personally from smiling at strange guys, engaging in conversation or flirting with them. Mostly, I don’t really like talking to strangers. I’m usually going somewhere, busy, or whatever. I don’t have time. I have plenty if friends. I don’t feel a great need to meet new people at random. I probably worry more about being trapped in an annoying conversation that I can’t get out of, than I do about harassment. I know the majority of men won’t actually harass me. But that doesn’t mean the conversation won’t be weird, tedious, or awkward. He might ask me out and I will have to say no, (I have a boyfriend), which will be uncomfortable.
Also, as you say in your post, I know if a man smikes at me or wants to converse, it’s because he’s noticed my body. Men pretty much ignore women they arent attracted to. And in a weird way, a random guy showing interest for no reason other than he likes how I look makes me feel kind of gross. At times it makes me feel vaguely ashamed, due to my own sexual hangups I guess. It’s not just men who have issues with shame.
So overall, the emotional stress of interacting with strangers is not worth the payoff.
“Also, as you say in your post, I know if a man smikes at me or wants to converse, it’s because he’s noticed my body.”
Actually, no. There might be a hundred more reasons I thought you’d be interesting to talk to. Sometimes, you just get a feeling about someone, or they look interesting. It could be their appearance, but it could be lots of other things.
I got in trouble on another site for disputing the term “rape culture,” which I think is overdone. And for saying that women’s projections have something to do with the identification of “creepy” behavior by men. Of course, men are frequently awful. But…
Thanks for reading my post and taking the time to reply.
It’s an interesting conundrum. If I see a beautiful woman, I feel an attraction to her almost immediately. I don’t want to feel gross about this, and don’t want to have to sublimate it. It feels very much to me like this is an integral part of who I am – not just the product of some enculturation (although I readily admit that there are probably cultural elements overlaid on whatever inclinations are purely biological).
On the other hand, I don’t want to make anyone else feel gross or uncomfortable if they should catch me noticing them. I don’t stare, or gawk. I do tend to glance more than once, which I realize sometimes makes women uncomfortable. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable.
I don’t know the answer here, but it probably rests somewhere in the middle. As people (not just women or men) in public spaces, we all need to recognize and accept that we will be noticed by other people, and that sometimes our appearance will cause us to be come the object of someone’s interest, attraction, or lust. We also all need to approach our own interests, attractions, or lusts respectfully. That means that if someone gives us clear indications that our gaze makes them uncomfortable, we need to cut it out.
I still think that if men’s behavior were less awful, many women (not all, and from your comment probably not you) would be more open to casual interactions.
I don’t know, though. What do you think the answer is? In a perfect world, what would the cultural norm be for men who encounter women they find attractive in public spaces?
That’s tough to answer because most women are just busy going about their lives. If I’m on a bus, I’m trying to get somewhere . If I’m in a coffee shop reading the paper , I’m there to read the paper. Often, being approached feels intrusive. Just because you are feeling a need to interact with beautiful women, that’s not the reason those beautiful women are out there doing things. They aren’t there for your entertainment or to fill your needs for conversation or flirtation. I’m not telling you not to approach, just that many WILL find it annoying, in the same way that telemarketers are annoying. It’s an interruption. I think it’s even worse for beautiful women because they are constantly being approached. Even if every man on the planet was super nice and respectful, the constant interruptions would be tiring. If you notice a woman then you can assume almost every other guy feels the same way.
I love talking to people on the bus; helps to pass the time. Easy enough to pull out a book or play a game on my phone if I don’t feel like talking to people. I think people should feel like they can talk to strangers in public and should just be sensitive to not doing it if the other person looks absorbed in private thought or is reading, or starts exhibiting “I don’t want to talk to you any more” body language. (Knowing some of my friends really can’t understand body language, I also think it’s polite to just say so if one doesn’t feel like talking–”I’m sorry, I don’t feel great today and I’m not up for a conversation” or something like that, instead of thinking the person is intrusive.)
I’ve had men usually have random convos with me (I am a man), it has helped to undo past damage from bullying and each time it helps me feel more confident around people as I realize they aren’t going to fuck with me. Would be great for a woman to talk to as well randomly like that.
People seemed to talk to strangers a lot more where I grew up in Minnesota. They don’t seem to do that very much on the east coast, but I’ll talk to whoever’s around me if I feel like talking and they’re not giving me “please stop talking to me” body language signals. I would absolutely talk to you if you were waiting at the bus stop with me, etc.! I think more people should chat with random people in public here, as long as they are sensitive to those who don’t seem like that want to.
Sounds good, I often don’t know what to talk about even though I want to talk. It’s such a pain in the ass.
I’m totally inspired to increase my chatting with strangers now. Off to draw out the quiet ones (who don’t seem annoyed by me LOL)!
@ Sarah
We talk to people all the time. I might be buying food at a grocery store and someone, especially a woman, will ask “how do you cook that”. I might be listening to a song and someone will ask “who sings that”. I was at a diner and someone asked me what I was eating. You’ve never gone to a convention or anyplace were people who share a particular interest go and not spoken to anyone except a vendor? You’ve never played on-line games and asked to join a mission? You don’t know if it’s strangers who met on line for this mission or if it was a group of friends who planned it. We have these interactions with people all the time even the beautiful women.
“Also, as you say in your post, I know if a man smiles at me or wants to converse, it’s because he’s noticed my body. Men pretty much ignore women they arent attracted to.”
I found this to be both stereotyping and insulting. I suspect that the way men actually behave is based on many different motivations, and you do not seem to be giving them the benefit of the doubt.
For example, I smiled at a girl on the subway the other day because she was trying to read a casebook while standing on a train (which involves lots of juggling as the average casebook is ~1000 pages long). I’ve been there many times, that same train, on my way to class, trying to read a casebook because I won’t have time later in the day. This was the entire reason behind my smile.
Sometimes I smile at a woman if I like the dog she’s walking. Sometimes I smile at a woman because she has her earbud volume turned up to 11 and doesn’t realize that I can tell she’s listening to “Call Me Maybe.”
The point is, when I smile at someone, it usually has nothing to do with their body.
I think the real problem with negative stereotypes is that there is a fundamental failure to give someone you legitimately don’t know the benefit of the doubt when ascribing them motivations. “He’s black, so he must be casing this store for a robbery,” is really no different from “He’s a man, so he’s only smiling because he likes my body.” In both cases there is an unfounded negative assumption about the person because of their outward presentation.
Furthermore, the idea that “Men pretty much ignore women they arent attracted to,” really confuses what the word “attracted” means.
For example, I’m going to ignore the woman who is dressed in a stained sweatshirt and sweatpants with a baseball cap over the hair she hasn’t washed. I’m doing this because her outward presentation suggests to me that she is not really interested in people paying attention to her.
This does not mean I pay attention to someone who is dressed up, but it does mean that ignoring someone I am not attracted to is the same thing as following a legitimate social cue.
It’s really not fair to put men in the double bind of “They can’t understand social cues!” when they pay attention to a woman, but then say “Shame on them for ignoring women they aren’t attracted to,” when doing so is a response to a social cue.
I thought it was insulting too. There are all sorts of reasons why men might talk to me in a public setting–they’re bored and I’m standing nearby, I have a book that looks interesting, I’m wearing a t-shirt that advertises a game they like, etc. Assuming that men who talk to you think you’re attractive is kind of narcissistic, and assuming they talk to you only because you’re attractive is insulting to them.
Please see my response below. I went through a stage in my life where I gained some weight, and men never spoke to me in public. Not at bookstores, not on the bus, not in line at the coffee shop. I lost weight, and they started talking to me again. iDK, maybe I just had a bad experience.
I can relate to that. I’ve been a large guy almost all my life and I don’t even need an entire hand to count the number of times I’ve been approached in public.
It’s not a good feeling.
I wonder if years ago when the culture was different, if more people were just in general friendlier to each other (eye contact, smiles, cordial conversation). I mean, in Austin and in other small southern towns I’ve lived in, everyone makes nice, flirts a bit, and is more relaxed. I make contact with lots of people in my daily life.
Maybe people are so stressed, so anxious and in such a rush that they only are saying hello to potential mates based on a small window of traits instead of being relaxed enough to just enjoy everyone.
Growing up in a small town and then moving to a small city a few months ago I think there might be something to that. I think small town life allows for a more relaxed atmosphere while in city life there is so much hustle and bustle that people don’t get a chance to stop and get to know each other.
(Maybe that’s why I hear stories about people not being able to find any luck in dating/relationships/sex more from people who live in cities than from people who live in rural areas. And if that’s the case then I’m really in trouble because I actually didn’t have in luck in the rural area I just moved from either…)
I have a PhD from UT Austin, and I don’t think it’s a typical Southern town. For one thing, outsiders are more welcome. We lived in Brenham, TX, and were frozen out of social life (except with other outsiders,) so I’d argue that Austin is way different. I admit that coquettery is more alive and well in the South, but I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not.
Ok, well, that is *horrid* that people would talk or not to others based on weight. I am very sorry that society treated you two that way. I guess where I’ve lived since college people don’t tend to talk to strangers in public much regardless. All the same, various men have spoken to me without any sort of sexual vibe, though, and have definitely seemed to be talking to me just because we happened to be waiting in the same spot or they noticed what I’m reading. I *do* see that vibe in others who talk to me. I don’t have an issue with it as long as they don’t push the issue after it becomes clear I’m not responding in a flirty way and that *I’m* just interested in a conversation.
You may not get a sexual vibe from particular guys who ask you what you are reading, but I suspect there would be far fewer guys asking those questions if you were less attractive (I don’t know how attractive you are, but from your picture, you look fairly young and attractive).
Talk to women 45+ and you will find out how things change. Or wait a few years and you will know what I’m talking about. Even if you don’t believe me now, you will find out on your own eventually. I don’t mean to be a downer, but it happens.
I understand what you’re saying, but “appearance bias” is not a men-exclusive. I really doubt that men do it any more than women. The only difference is that women are slightly less likely to put out a “sexual vibe” toward men.
Those of us men, like me, who are not good looking know this all too well. You get passed over for promotions at work (yes, even if your supervisor is female,) and even in casual conversations. Even when you’re “the funny one” you’re less likely to be talked to than the good looking “likeable” guy.
I’m not saying objectification OR appearance bias are right, and I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s feelings. Also, my heart goes out to anyone who has been “eye raped” or had lewd, disrespectful comments directed their way. Any guy on here who tries to downplay that should be ashamed of themselves.
But if we’re just talking about the dynamics of attraction and how it applies to people we don’t know? A quick glance at a woman’s body is no different than “hey, that guy has a cool shirt!”
I agree with Travis on the appearance bias issue–I am sure there is plenty of it, and that it is experienced often as in your case. I was objecting more because it sounded like you were saying that the *vast majority* of men would talk to a woman they didn’t know *only* if they found her attractive, which seems overstating the case to me.
I just don’t think it’s fair to paint all or most men with that brush. Physical attraction is going to be a powerful motivator with regard to starting a conversation with a stranger and is going to significantly influence the number of (het/bi) men who talk to a woman, certainly, but there are plenty of non-sexual reasons that can influence them to strike up a conversation as well.
For the record, that photo is from about 7 years ago. I’m 43 and far from slim. I do think I tend to look fairly receptive to conversation at the times strangers will talk to me–there are definitely times when I sort of close myself off and I rarely get approached at these points. Perhaps there is something about the way people carry themselves and look about themselves (or not) that has an influence?
I just thought of another thing. Most men do know that it can seem threatening to a woman to be spoken to by a strange man in some circumstances. Perhaps there is tendency to avoid conversation on that point (in order to avoid invoking any fear) unless there is an overriding factor such as physical attraction or the woman making friendly eye contact or, of course, initiating the conversation herself.
“I was objecting more because it sounded like you were saying that the *vast majority* of men would talk to a woman they didn’t know *only* if they found her attractive, which seems overstating the case to me.”
What I’ve found is that most people talk to others because they are bored or lonely. Things are too quiet for them or they’re actually interested in whatever you’re doing. My mom had a group of friends she met at the Laundromat. They washed clothes on the same days and times and it’s boring just sitting there for a couple hours.
I was at a bus stop once in a more dangerous part of the city. A woman I knew from high school was also waiting. We didn’t like each other and she didn’t talk to me. 4 young men came to wait also. She moved to my side and started up a conversation. That was one of the more irritating, mono-syllabic discussions I’ve had. I could sense the nervousness in her voice and manner of speaking. I assumed that she just got nervous and figured that she didn’t like me, but at least I wasn’t dangerous to her. I never even considered the possibility that her taste in men had improved and she wanted me sexually, oh well.
Exactly–bored, shared interest, lonely. And some people are just naturally very chatty.
Maybe it’s because I live in an urban area, but strangers don’t really talk to each other here. I can only think of one example in, I don’t know, the last 5 years when a guy approached me and made conversation and he wasn’t hitting on me. It was a guy who started telling me about Jesus. So maybe I’ve gotten cynical but it does seem like everybody wants something…
“I know if a man smikes at me or wants to converse, it’s because he’s noticed my body.”
Actually, no, you don’t know that. You’re assuming that, which isn’t at all the same thing as knowing.
I’m so sick of women assuming they know exactly how all men think all the time. You don’t get to ascribe motivations to me and then judge me for them.
Also, as you say in your post, I know if a man smikes at me or wants to converse, it’s because he’s noticed my body. Men pretty much ignore women they arent attracted to.
I think that’s a bit of a big leap. Suspect that is why? Sure. But know it? I’m not sure about that.
It could be the item that she is picking up at the store, it could be which section of the book store she is in (or what book she has in her hand contemplating a purchase), it could be that she’s wearing an item that looks pretty.
And these types of smiles and conversations can happen whether the woman in question has a noticeable body (or find her attractive) or not.
I’ll agree that you women don’t owe me a smile or an exchange of words. But at the same time isn’t it wrong to try to tell us what our motives are?
“Men pretty much ignore women they arent attracted to.”
SOME men maybe, but I talk to women I don’t find attractive (mostly when I know them a bit through an event, randoms I equally avoid talking to due to shyness). Thanks for telling me my own experience though.
I gotta agree that is a very big generalization and inaccurate, Sarah.
Ok I stand corrected, it was a generalization. However, all I can say is that I have varied in attractiveness over the course of my life (been thin, gotten heavier, gotten thin again; been young, gotten older), and there is a HUGE difference in the number of men who talk to me in public based on the state of my physical attractiveness. When I was thin and in my 20′s — almost an everyday occurrence. When I was in my early 30′s and I’d gained some weight — I was invisible. No one talked to me, ever. Now I’m in my 40′s, but in decent shape — it happens once in a great while. Much less than when I was young.
Has a random guy ever struck up a conversation with me but didn’t seem attracted to me? Honestly, I can’t think of any examples in my own life (excluding situations like conferences where people are networking).
Your mileage may vary, I suppose.
Also, Imwas responding to the blog post by Sexless Father where he mainly talks about wanting to approach beautiful women and flirt with them.