Love, money, and what matters in dating.
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Emma Johnson wrote a controversial article this week in Forbes.com; Why High-Earning Women Should Disclose Their Income on Dating Sites. Divorced and dating on OKCupid and Match.com, 38-year old Johnson is a wealthy woman who at first did not disclose her income on dating sites. After four years of attracting men she didn’t like, she decided to reveal her income on OKCupid. She says the quality of the men who contacted her went way up. Her conclusion? It’s best to disclose your income on a dating site.
Yes, it’s important to be with someone who is financially responsible.
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When Emma began to attract these “quality” men, it intrigued her friend Farnoosh Torabi. Farnoosh is a financial expert and author of When She Makes More: The Truth About Navigating Love and Life for a New Generation of Women.
Torabi says women who are high earners should reveal their financial status early on because it “allows for any resentment to be worked through early in the courtship. After all, the chances of divorce in couples where the women earn more than their husbands is double that when the inverse is true.”
I’m not sure what century Torabi is living in, but the last time I checked, all men are not resentful of high-earning women. And I’m pretty sure that money issues are never the only cause of the high divorce rate when women earn more than men.
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Following are excerpts from the article with my comments.
“Sharing openly about my income says a whole lot about me — including that I’m not in the market for a sugar daddy.”
Your character says a whole lot more about you than your income. Yes, it’s important to be with someone who is financially responsible. But your income does not define you.
And about the sugar daddy thing, I know women who make more than the men they’re dating, yet they’re still looking for a “sugar daddy” to pay for everything. In other words, a high income is not an indication of good character. What about dating men with qualities that really matter, like empathy, openness, affection, respect, honesty, and integrity?
“The divorced guys I date love the fact that I’m financially independent because they’re so angry that their ex-wives stayed at home, so angry they’re paying alimony. In their opinion they think, ‘She was lazy. I wanted her to get a job. I didn’t want her to stay at home.’ ”
Really? I don’t date angry men who are resentful and bitter towards their ex-wives. This is not an income issue. This is about people who can’t move on and don’t take responsibility for their share in the dissolution of a marriage.
“Take shame out of the equation. You are professionally successful, so why hide it? Of course, if a guy is threatened by your success…I don’t even need to finish that sentence.”
I’ll finish that sentence. If a guy is threatened by your success, he has low self-esteem. I don’t believe you should hide your success from a man or diminish yourself in order to stroke a man’s ego. Dating is not a competition. A confident man doesn’t feel threatened by a woman’s success.
“If you’re passionate about your career, you want to discuss business with your partner. The man I’m dating now is also independently employed. One of the main things we connect on is business, which I find incredibly hot.”
Sure, it can be fun sometimes to discuss business with your partner. But after a long day at work, I enjoy talking about everything BUT business. I imagine that most men like to leave their work behind at the end of the day, too. I don’t think business discussions are at the top of most men’s list of qualities they’re seeking in a partner.
“Successful guys like to talk about work and business with successful people. Including women. Including women they date. See above. Flip the equation. Not rocket science dating advice.”
Not good dating advice, either. See comment above.
“Yes, there is still a contingent of successful men who are truly intimidated by high-earning women, and openly seek a homemaker with a low IQ they can manipulate.”
Really? So, women are either successful/financially independent or homemakers with a low IQ? I’m insulted. I worked at home part time throughout my marriage so I could be the primary caretaker of my children. I didn’t earn a high income, but that didn’t make me feel diminished or stupid in any way. I felt that being a mom was my most important job, and I have three high-functioning wonderful kids to show for it.
And her final comment.
“Ladies, include in your profile your real income. Do not hesitate to share your professional success. Do it for yourself. And do it for women everywhere.”
I’m all for taking pride in your hard-earned successes. But that doesn’t mean you should disclose your high income on a dating site. Lead with your good heart, not your big bank account. Isn’t that what really matters? I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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Photo: Flickr/ kelley_leigh
Well most of the women in the old days were certainly the best of all and they were Nothing at all like the women of today are.
Who the hell cares.
If you’re going to include evolutionary psychology, then you forgot to add that there’s a theory of women picking a stronger man (the alpha), with better genes during their most fertile times of the month and then wanting the the beta male who is more kind, caring, to help raise the child and give resources. In a time when both genders can work and equality is expected, yes it is more shallow for women to choose males based on income, than males choosing based on looks…because women TOO will also choose partly on looks. Random casual hookups still have that… Read more »
Sandy – congrats on being willing to touch a subject which both sexes feel strongly about (of course we value money – duh right) – and the volume of commentary it generated only serves to back up that point even further. The bigger point is that without monetary balance, it creates a lopsided distribution in power, love, sex, etc. which generally leads to both sides being miserable with resentment and expectations.
What surprises me the most is how angry lots of men are at women that choose men with resources when they want children because this is a way , this is because they think ( feel…) that this will care of their children in the future. Some comments here tells us that it is more shallow of women to date a man with resources than it is when men date women based on their looks. Mens actions and choices are more honerable than womens choices……seen with the eyes of some men . Why is that? No its not that men’s… Read more »
Danny, I would safely bet you my life savings that more material exists in the world encouraging the objectification of women specifically for male pleasure then material exists that talks about why objectifying women is wrong. Infact, this past weekened I had the pleasure of having good family friends visit who have three little boys.When there are little kids around, you tend to look at things with new eyes. We were all sitting together watching the fireworks on TV this year because no one wanted to deal with the crowd – not even the boys. On TV, they had music… Read more »
I will add that I don’t think women “shame” men based on their attraction to women alone. I believe what is being “shamed” is how men exploit women because of their attraction to them. And if you are hoenst here, you would recoognize that there is tons of exploitation aroudn women’s looks happening in our society everyday. And alot of women are tired of it. They can’t ever get away with it. It follows them right into their own hoems where their husbands and boyfriends are downloading whatever naked picture of whatever “new popular pop-cutlure” girl that is out there… Read more »
Hi Sandy Your article was called ” Why the men I want to date don’t care about my income.” Today here on GMP we can read an article about female serial killers. And it concludes, or have the hypotheses that say “woman have evolved to place a premium on securing resources”, that is why female serial killers kill to get money and male serial killer kill for sex..( Why am I not surprised?) I do not think evolutionary pcychology and Robert Trivers (1972) should be used to explain everything,but it is interesting to read anyway.. And if Trivers idea is… Read more »
I have a relatively high income and a successful career. My boyfriend and I started dating in our early 40’s. He’s an engineer who makes a good income. He said I was the first woman he’d ever dated who did not expect him to take care of me financially. I have always preferred to share our expenses 50-50. Most of his previous girlfriends over the years were school teachers, secretaries, medical assistants and so on. He felt like a lot of these women were only interested in his wallet and many of them had a long term goal of being… Read more »
@Sarah Radford, Sounds like you and your boyfriend have a wonderful relationship. You didn’t want a sugar daddy and he didn’t want a stay-at-home mom for whom he had to be the sole provider. That’s wonderful. The point I was making in this article is that focusing on high income over solid character is a bad idea. And that men are not usually looking for a woman to discuss business with at the end of the day. More often, they are looking for what they can’t get at work—someone to be intimate with, to talk through issues, and be able… Read more »
So do you agree on running a back ground or credit check on someone before you ask or agree to marriage?
John, you should at least ask them if they have debdt and how much.
My mother married out of love and found out that he had not told her that he had huge debdt.She spent all her adult life working to help him pay all the money.
She was more hurt by this ,than the fact that he also was too fond of his pint.
Yes it is wise to run a back ground or credit check.
@John Gottman Anderson and @silke, When you are ready to get married, you had better built enough trust that finances have been disclosed. If you have to run a background/credit check, what type of relationship have you forged? Pay attention to red flags–they usually show up early on. I recently dated someone who revealed on the third date that he had credit card debt. He explained the reason why, and it was a valid reason. The problem was, he wasn’t doing anything to get out of debt, even though he said he was working on it. He was wonderful in… Read more »
@Sandy Weiner,
Good call!
Too many people live beyond their means, and let seemingly minor issues grow above their head without adressing them. I’ve seen up close and personal what that behaviour can lead to.
@ Sandy That’s why I think you make valid points, but I can see the other side too. Finances is or should be a consideration for a long term relationship, but as you said income doesn’t always equate to financial stability / responsibility. You might be able to get a clue based on other things they said though. If they say they’ve been to many different countries, you can surmise only a small portion of that income gets saved if any. If a person mentions they have a mortgage, you can surmise that they invest. They take a long term… Read more »
@John Gottman Anderson,
Relationships can feel like a crapshoot, but the truth is, with the right coaching/training, you can pick up on red flags and know the keys to compatibility and stability in a potential partner. I got married to someone I knew only a few months. There were red flags, but I thought time would work things out. NOT! If you date with eyes open, spend time seeing that person through crisis and how they deal with challenges (road rage? financial issues?), you will be able to predict with a fair amount of accuracy whether the relationship will last.
Yes Sandy, there are red flags. But It is easier said than done when you are deeply in love and passion runs high… And not everybody are trained to know about red flags, or able to read them. It is probabely the privilege of the few that has no emotional issues themselves,and that was fortunate to grow up among heatly good loving adults. I do not know anyone that married a person they did not trust, but I know several that misjudged the person and ended up with trouble. I think there is realtionship between a divorce rate of 50%… Read more »
@ silke
Some people say if I don’t trust them, I shouldn’t marry them. I can see their point. Some say, it’s better safe than sorry and I can see their point. Some people will even have prenups to protect their assets just in case. There are some men and I totally agree who suggest that even married men have their children DNA tested because mommy’s baby daddy’s maybe is always a possibility.
🙂 I agree with you and I am not offended if a man wants facts about me before he marry me. But I know I would be hurt if he ask for DNA test of the child if we are married and committed, but he can take it anyway wether the woman like it or not. Maybe the law say he is not permitted to do so but today it is easy. The marriage contract has huge economic consequenses for both parts. After the contract is signed it will too late to ask about debdt, and other issues that will… Read more »
@silke
when passion runs that high right away, run in the other direction. You will be blinded to the person’s true character and be tempted to make excuses for their misbehavior. No, we don’t all have a coaching or therapy background, but there are plenty of books and articles written about red flags, dangerous people to date (emotionally and physically), etc.
You are right 🙂
I think it’s even good that men don’t care about it! As for me I met one men on https://kovla.com and he asked me about my income! To be honest, it was really unpleasant and off putting behaviour! So I like when men don’t ask me about it( I’m on a good wicket)
I could care less how much she makes or how many assets she has. That’s not attractive at all. But then I’m old school. I’d also set strict limits on any gift giving by her and demand a prenup if it ever got to that point. I’d make it as clear as possible that her money is a turnoff. It’s all academic anyways, because I never plan on dating again. There’s more but I suspect no one is really listening, and I need to take care of the rat in the desk drawer next to me. I live out in… Read more »
we are listening..please continue.
My BFF dated some guys she met through online dating sites….I don’t know if she put down her income level, but I think it was clear that her education level and profession (college professor) would put off a lot of men….perhaps that was for the better…she attracted some great guys…! The best one was someone she already knew on campus for 10 years! They are married now!
Interesting how many women are resentful of labor unions but failed to see that without unions, you are going to have both low income men and women.
Do you have real data that show women are more hostile to labor unions than men? If so, please share it with us.
Women and minorities tend to be the most supportive of labor unions.
While I am supportive of private sector unions, I feel public sector unions should be strictly prohibited..
At my workplace, the women who rise up from the ranks to become managers ans supervisors have become hostile to unions especially when their workers file grievances against them. and these women managers take retaliatory action against these workers and outright ignore the union contract and labor laws. BTW, many of these women managers and supervisors were also minorities as well. Funny how the oppress become the oppressors.
Why do you prohibited public sector unions?
At my workplace, I have seen too many minorities turn their backs on the unions when they become managers and/or supervisors and like the women, they don’t like it when people filed lawful grievances against them, tried to make the workers’ lives miserable, and ignore the union contract and labor laws. Again, it is funny how the oppress become the oppressors.
When I was younger and in decent shape, I wouldn’t have minded a “sugar momma”. In fact, a friend has one he met at a gym. Now I’d probably just think she was nuts if she showed any interest. I think we all try to date within our leagues (we don’t feel “cheated” so much and don’t face a heightened threat of rejection from people with more dating currency) and we factor all kinds of things in looks, income, education, etc. so I can see how holding back any pluses might get you a “lower caliber man”. Now this only… Read more »
“I’m not sure what century Torabi is living in, but the last time I checked, all men are not resentful of high-earning women”
Interesting that the idea that the women might be resentful of low-income earning men never seemed to cross your mind.
How many of these women would date a man without a job? There are far more men who will date a woman without a job than vice-versa, because there is far more to dating than someones income.
Archy,maybe women would be more willing to date a man without a job if he signaled that he would love to take on lots of the house work, shopping,cooking and in this way make her life easier.
And of course also be willing to do this if they have kids.
Some of the men without jobs have heath issues. A man can be a good husband,and father even if he has health problems that makes employes not willing to put their trust in him.
I have a horrible social anxiety disorder which makes it difficult to work outside the home. Also low energy levels due to illness but I have done 20hours+ a week on house-work, decluttering, landscaping the yard, etc. I did pretty much 3-5 hours a day (pretty much my burnout point each day due to low energy from chronic illness), every day for a few months straight with maybe one or 2 days rest (due to injury or something). Being unemployed, some might think I am lazy but I don’t mind cleaning, fixing stuff, “working”, my main issue is working for… Read more »
Archy axiety is nasty I know. But be aware of all you have to offer. I have observed you also are a man that can have interesting conversations. The ladies love that. There are women out there that would be happy to have a man that like to work at home. I do. When the man I married asked me to marry him he told me he should work at home as a writer ( with a child at each knee….) and I married him, but he was never at home ,not even to eat dinner. Go out there Archy… Read more »
Archy,maybe women would be more willing to date a man without a job if he signaled that he would love to take on lots of the house work, shopping,cooking and in this way make her life easier.
And I bet more men would give that signal if it wasn’t for him being stigmatized as a “loser” for not having a job outside the home by everyeone from potential dates to average joe and jane on the street.
Danny you say everyone . But in this world there are still some people intelligent enough to know that persons in poor health living on a pension, a garantee income are not loosers. And in fact they have something to offer that the winners of the rat race often can not: Their time, presence, and more. And is not true that all persons with heath problems live alone and have no love life, but I agree that they are sometimes discriminated against but not by everybody . Because not everybody are stupid, uneducated and misinformed. I have friends like that… Read more »
I should have quantified that rather than saying everyone but I think the point still stands that men face that stigma from a large part of the population.
Hi Sandy You ask an interesting question! I have never put up an ad on a dating site,but I have often read mens profiles on The Guardians Soulmates. And men are clever to show in their profile ,their level of education,their CV,life style, the kind of home they live in,area they live in, and more. Unless they lie ,that give indicators also about their income . I guess women do the same in their profile. They show what class ( social group ) they belong to,and that is a good indication of income. In my country people with the same… Read more »
@Silke “In my country people with the same level of education and same level of income marry each other and I do not think women that earn a lot of money look for men to pay their bills,but a partner on the same level economicaly.” I really think this is the proper way to date and marry….Men here in America really need to take the emphasis off of womens looks and beauty. A greater emphasis need to be placed on her education/socioeconomic level. Women tend to be more egalitarian in their outlook as compared to men. Men need to adopt… Read more »
@silke,
I do agree that most people marry those who have similar social/cultural/economic levels. Like attracts like quite often. (Although opposites do attract in all ways, too). My argument was not with people choosing partners who are on similar financial levels. I had a problem with the shallowness of the Forbes article’s focus on income being a primary attractor. I think relationships are so much deeper than money, don’t you?
Sandy, I read the Forbes article and I did not like it. Yes relationships are deeper than money,but most of us do not seek towards partnes that bring more insecurety into our life than we have already. Life is not easy for anyone. The trend that men now prefer not to marry but cohabitate tell that he like to have control of his own money( if he has any). The most wealthy they marry ,maybe because they marry another wealthy person? I my country both spouses have the duty to support the other economicaly when they are married. Not all… Read more »
For people who are “looking for LOVE” I think talking about your bank account before you find out the character of someone is the most tasteless tactic you can take. It is my observation that those females who earn more, or who have grown accustomed to a “large life” — be it from youth, adulthood or both — EXPECT more financially from a man. So, the ones who HAVE the most, WANT the most! I have not found many middle-aged single women who evaluate their prospects with a man without sizing him up, financially. OHHHHH, they want an HONEST man,… Read more »
And all this after so many people lost their “financial dreams” in 2008-09. – Se “You can say that about people who lost their jobs and their pensions for the last 35 years plus people who have a hard time trying to get a job that pays them the same kind of income after losing their first job during the same time period. You look at college and high school kids who are unable to get good paying jobs because the jobs were sent overseas. Nowadays, you have to come from a rich family with good connections to get a… Read more »
“For people who are “looking for LOVE” I think talking about your bank account before you find out the character of someone is the most tasteless tactic you can take.” Is it though? Is it just as tasteless to desire someone of a certain look, ethnicity or age? I actually don’t agree that financial information should be disclosed for either a man or a woman. If you want to share about your job, that’s great. But your actual finances? I don’t think this is ever a good idea. BUT, to play devils advocate here, millions of men out there want… Read more »
Of course you went there. Newsflash. Plenty of women too are shallow in their dating requirements based on looks. Height, weight, shoulder to waist ratio, muscle size, facial hair, full head of hair, strong jawline, etc are all variables used by many women in selecting a partner. Wanting someone based on looks, lust is shallow but wanting someone based on income I’d say is far more pathetic. A gold digger isn’t a good person because they’re after someone else’s money and it’s a cheaper version of prostitution. Someone wanting to date someone based off physical looks, age, is just shallow… Read more »
Archy I think Erin has a good point.
@ Archy I agree choosing someone based on wealth is worse than choosing someone based on looks. At least appearance is intrinsic to a person. Wealth is external to them. What it boils down to is using people. Looks doesn’t equal using someone for sex or status. Neither does income when there is no or little disparity, but when the disparity is large, it almost certainly does. I don’t think the point is for ALL women to disclose their income, just the women who earn a lot. I think it’s less about using someone than assuring someone that you’re not… Read more »
Actually it depends. Attractiveness is mostly just luck — you got good genes, hooray for you! So in that sense it’s intrinsic, but why does that make it less shallow to date people for their looks? on the other hand, looking good can take effort (eating right, shopping, learning how to put on make up, maybe cosmetic surgery). That could either be a good thing (shows you have effort) or a bad thing (all you spend your time on is looking good in order for people to admire you). Financial succcess is the same, Maybe you inherited all the money,… Read more »
” it is about meeting our needs….” Are you sure Sarah, that we all are so self aware that we know what our deepest needs are? Do the men that hunt for models have their deepest needs met if they catch one of them? And are women that only want to date men that are at least 6 foot high,and with a high income have their deepest need met if they marry on of these men? I did follow this script myself , because I was not in touch with what I needed the most. I did not no do… Read more »
Because someone dating for looks is still going to earn their own money. Dating for wealth is basically “I want to be spoiled rotten and never work again”.
Silke – I couldn’t agree more with what you said here. And based on your response, Sometimes what we think we want or need is very different from what we actually truly need or want. There is a great book out there for anyone that is single and digging into knowing yourself better and knowing what you may need from a relationship. It’s called “Keeping The Love You Find.” by Harville Hendrix. @ John A – No. Choosing someone based on wealth is no worse or different then choosing someone based on appearance. Both are equally shallow. Neither one is… Read more »
“men …they want to be able to pick women for looks while they don’t want women to pick them based on financal reasons”.
Exactly Erin!!!!!
@ Erin
So you’re saying height is not intrinsic to a person? Some women only date men taller than they are, but yeah it’s only men who choose on physical attributes, right? You’re saying a symmetrical face is not intrinsic to a person? Some things can be altered, hair color, plastic surgery, but how is that less intrinsic to a person than say education?
” But believing that a lust for money is somehow worse then a lust for good looks is purely false.” Both genders lust for good looks, it can be shallow if that is their main or only desire but it’s far less shallow than wanting money. A man dating a very good looking woman will not sponge off her money (at least in 99% of cases) but a gold digger (male or female) dating someone for their money will. It’s laziness to earn their own money, and shows an entitled and selfish attitude that they deserve money they didn’t earn.… Read more »
@John Gottman, please explain to me why height would be intrinsic to a person? There will always be people who place shallow expectations on each other. Ultimately, no matter how many tall people they date, or women under the age of 25, they will never truly be happy with themselves or their relationships and they will continue to chase things that hold absolutely no true meaning to a truly good relationship. Those things may make them happy for the short term, but not for the long term. There is certainly one thing men and women have in common. They both… Read more »
Erin ,you should read Stella Grey who write about her experience with online dating .
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jun/20/ive-learned-to-to-make-snap-judgments-sexual-chemistry-can-surprise-you
She is funny,but it is also sad..
SIlke – thanks for sharing that article. I do believe that what happened in that article between the woman and her date stems from the sense of entitlement our society gives men around young, perfect female bodies. Males of all ages are pretty much served a daily diet of women to consume and throw away. These women, in the majority, uphold a certain ideal of what the female body should be. I have shared before that I’ve had men old enough to be my grandfather hit on me, asking me for a serious date. How many 60+ year old women… Read more »
Erin, Stella Grey is fun to read.
Here is more
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/11/showing-cleavage-messages-but-no-dates-skype-sex
And this makes you wonder what is going on in the head of some men on dating sites.
Thanks Silke!
“Maybe a lot of men out there are so blinded by the visual, they’ve lost that connection to chemistry and who real women are and what real women look like?” Exactly, but it’s both sides (real men and real women). Which is at least partly why it’s so difficult to weed through society to find the ones with whom you’d like nothing more than a 4 hour debate-chat-conversation with that big opinionated brain of yours 😉 An interesting side point about chemistry, and one I’m willing to bet you’re already well versed in – our brains take time to create… Read more »
Hi MJP
Yes MJP I have developed feelings of deep love and affection for a man I in the beginner saw as not attractive.
My feelings changed because he treated me so well,understood me ,he was clever and had integrity.
Thanks for good advice.
Ditto Erin!
@Erin,
Good points about overall shallowness in dating. There are some double standards, aren’t there? While there are many older men who want to date much younger women, I often think they are fantasizing more than actually scoring those dates. We can’t change those who are shallow and focus only on looks, height, weight or finances over kindness, empathy, generosity of spirit, and intelligence. We don’t have to date them, though.
I actually don’t agree that financial information should be disclosed for either a man or a woman. If you want to share about your job, that’s great. But your actual finances? I don’t think this is ever a good idea. BUT, to play devils advocate here, millions of men out there want to know what a woman looks like, her age, her weight and all these other factors around a woman’s looks before they choose to go on a date. Millions of men are specifically looking to date women younger than them. There are millions of shallow requests we place… Read more »
Danny ,I may be wrong but I can not remember having seen women in debate here on GMP call men dogs,pev,mosters etc when they prefer to date good looking women.
But I agree with you,it is insulting to call others with names like that.
The main example of I can think of is a post here a while back in which the writer said that older men who go for younger women should be and deserve to be shamed. And while I wouldn’t take the fact that it was published as fact that the editors all agreed with it I think it stands to reason they didn’t find it objectionable even after it was pointed.
@Don Draper, Thanks for your comment. Many of my dating coaching clients think they want someone who’s financially secure. I tell them there is no such thing as financial security, and reference how many people took huge losses in the stock market, when the economy crashed, and often, a divorce wipes out someone’s financial portfolio. I focus their attention on what really matters most, someone with strong character, who takes responsibility for his actions and words. That includes financial responsibility. A person can make a lot of money and be irresponsible by living beyond his/her means. I wouldn’t feel safe… Read more »
Dear Ms. Weiner:
I would not trust people who make lots of money but end up destroying other people’s lives, destroy a nation’s economy and the world economy.