Has gaslighting conditioned women into thinking they’re emotionally unstable? Yashar Ali thinks so.
You’re so sensitive. You’re so emotional. You’re defensive. You’re overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! You’re crazy! I was just joking, don’t you have a sense of humor? You’re so dramatic. Just get over it already!
Sound familiar?
If you’re a woman, it probably does.
Do you ever hear any of these comments from your spouse, partner, boss, friends, colleagues, or relatives after you have expressed frustration, sadness, or anger about something they have done or said?
When someone says these things to you, it’s not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without calling—that’s inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, “Calm down, you’re overreacting,” after you just addressed someone else’s bad behavior, is emotional manipulation—pure and simple.
And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. It’s patently false and unfair.
I think it’s time to separate inconsiderate behavior from emotional manipulation and we need to use a word not in our normal vocabulary.
I want to introduce a helpful term to identify these reactions: gaslighting.
Gaslighting is a term, often used by mental health professionals (I am not one), to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that they’re crazy.
The term comes from the 1944 MGM film, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman. Bergman’s husband in the film, played by Charles Boyer, wants to get his hands on her jewelry. He realizes he can accomplish this by having her certified as insane and hauled off to a mental institution. To pull of this task, he intentionally sets the gaslights in their home to flicker off and on, and every time Bergman’s character reacts to it, he tells her she’s just seeing things. In this setting, a gaslighter is someone who presents false information to alter the victim’s perception of him or herself.
Today, when the term is referenced, it’s usually because the perpetrator says things like, “You’re so stupid” or “No one will ever want you” to the victim. This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting, much like the actions of Charles Boyer’s character in Gaslight, where he strategically plots to confuse Ingrid Bergman’s character into believing herself unhinged.
The form of gaslighting I’m addressing is not always pre-mediated or intentional, which makes it worse, because it means all of us, especially women, have dealt with it at one time or another.
Those who engage in gaslighting create a reaction—whether it’s anger, frustration, sadness—in the person they are dealing with. Then, when that person reacts, the gaslighter makes them feel uncomfortable and insecure by behaving as if their feelings aren’t rational or normal.
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My friend Anna (all names changed to protect privacy) is married to a man who feels it necessary to make random and unprompted comments about her weight. Whenever she gets upset or frustrated with his insensitive comments, he responds in the same, defeating way, “You’re so sensitive. I’m just joking.”
My friend Abbie works for a man who finds a way, almost daily, to unnecessarily shoot her down and her work product. Comments like, “Can’t you do something right?” or “Why did I hire you?” are regular occurrences for her. Her boss has no problem firing people (he does it regularly), so you wouldn’t know that based on these comments, Abbie has worked for him for six years. But every time she stands up for herself and says “It doesn’t help me when you say these things,” she gets the same reaction: “Relax; you’re overreacting.”
Abbie thinks her boss is just being a jerk in these moments, but the truth is, he is making those comments to manipulate her into thinking her reactions are out of whack. And it’s exactly that kind manipulation that has left her feeling guilty about being sensitive, and as a result, she has not left her job.
But gaslighting can be as simple as someone smiling and saying something like, “You’re so sensitive,” to somebody else. Such a comment may seem innocuous enough, but in that moment, that person is making a judgment about how someone else should feel.
While dealing with gaslighting isn’t a universal truth for women, we all certainly know plenty of women who encounter it at work, home, or in personal relationships.
And the act of gaslighting does not simply affect women who are not quite sure of themselves. Even vocal, confident, assertive women are vulnerable to gaslighting.
Why?
Because women bare the brunt of our neurosis. It is much easier for us to place our emotional burdens on the shoulders of our wives, our female friends, our girlfriends, our female employees, our female colleagues, than for us to impose them on the shoulders of men.
It’s a whole lot easier to emotionally manipulate someone who has been conditioned by our society to accept it. We continue to burden women because they don’t refuse our burdens as easily. It’s the ultimate cowardice.
Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: it renders some women emotionally mute.
These women aren’t able to clearly express to their spouses that what is said or done to them is hurtful. They can’t tell their boss that his behavior is disrespectful and prevents them from doing their best work. They can’t tell their parents that, when they are being critical, they are doing more harm than good.
When these women receive any sort of push back to their reactions, they often brush it off by saying, “Forget it, it’s okay.”
That “forget it” isn’t just about dismissing a thought, it is about self-dismissal. It’s heartbreaking.
No wonder some women are unconsciously passive aggressive when expressing anger, sadness, or frustration. For years, they have been subjected to so much gaslighting that they can no longer express themselves in a way that feels authentic to them.
They say, “I’m sorry” before giving their opinion. In an email or text message, they place a smiley face next to a serious question or concern, thereby reducing the impact of having to express their true feelings.
You know how it looks: “You’re late 
”
These are the same women who stay in relationships they don’t belong in, who don’t follow their dreams, who withdraw from the kind of life they want to live.
♦◊♦
Since I have embarked on this feminist self-exploration in my life and in the lives of the women I know, this concept of women as “crazy” has really emerged as a major issue in society at large and an equally major frustration for the women in my life, in general.
From the way women are portrayed on reality shows, to how we condition boys and girls to see women, we have come to accept the idea that women are unbalanced, irrational individuals, especially in times of anger and frustration.
Just the other day, on a flight from San Francisco to Los Angeles, a flight attendant who had come to recognize me from my many trips asked me what I did for a living. When I told her that I write mainly about women, she immediately laughed and asked, “Oh, about how crazy we are?”
Her gut reaction to my work made me really depressed. While she made her response in jest, her question nonetheless makes visible a pattern of sexist commentary that travels through all facets of society on how men view women, which also greatly impacts how women may view themselves.
As far as I am concerned, the epidemic of gaslighting is part of the struggle against the obstacles of inequality that women constantly face. Acts of gaslighting steal their most powerful tool: their voice. This is something we do to women every day, in many different ways.
I don’t think this idea that women are “crazy,” is based in some sort of massive conspiracy. Rather, I believe it’s connected to the slow and steady drumbeat of women being undermined and dismissed, on a daily basis. And gaslighting is one of many reasons why we are dealing with this public construction of women as “crazy”
I recognize that I’ve been guilty of gaslighting my women friends in the past (but never my male friends—surprise, surprise). It’s shameful, but I’m glad I realized that I did it on occasion and put a stop to it.
While I take total responsibility for my actions, I do believe that I, along with many men, am a byproduct of our conditioning. It’s about the general insight our conditioning gives us into admitting fault and exposing any emotion.
When we are discouraged in our youth and early adulthood from expressing emotion, it causes many of us to remain steadfast in our refusal to express regret when we see someone in pain from our actions.
When I was writing this piece, I was reminded of one of my favorite Gloria Steinem quotes, “The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn.”
So for many of us, it’s first about unlearning how to flicker those gaslights and learning how to acknowledge and understand the feelings, opinions, and positions of the women in our lives.
But isn’t the issue of gaslighting ultimately about whether we are conditioned to believe that women’s opinions don’t hold as much weight as ours? That what women have to say, what they feel, isn’t quite as legitimate?
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Yashar will be soon releasing his first short e-book, entitled, A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not Crazy — How We Teach Men That Women Are Crazy and How We Convince Women To Ignore Their Instincts. If you are interested and want to be notified when the book is released, please click here to sign-up.
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This post originally appeared on The Current Conscience.
—Photo lempicki.maciek/Flickr
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Read Mark Greene’s response:
About Yashar Ali
Vocalyze
That was quite an interesting read and it really gave me a new perspective on the ways I’ve observed some people act.
What you’re describing in this article actually feels very familiar to me, even though I’m a man. I have autism and I often receive responses like the ones described in this article when I say that something someone has said or done has hurt or a offended me or that I’m not comfortable with what someone wants me to do. I’m always uncertain and nervous in social situations because of my condition, so I’ve never been able to adequately respond to that. Based on that experience I think I can understand how awful “gaslighting” feels. I hope more people can become aware of this idea and teach themselves to listen to others more carefully and seriously.
Your lack of education is evident in your writing. You make it appear as though “gaslighting” is restricted to women as though they are the only people who are victims of this act. Your argument is completely one sided. This is a cultural practice and is experienced by women AND men alike. You are delving too deeply into things you don’t have the proper qualifications to approach correctly. Though you make valid points, you focus on a mere piece of the puzzle rather than observing the whole.
Yes, it is experienced by women and men alike.
But oh so sorry that he did not focus on men at all! Because we males always need the attention, too, don’t we? Women and rape? But, men get raped too! They both call in serious consideration and discussion, an although they are the same physical phenomenon -different machinations are happening behind them. Gaslighting on women is distinctly different than that to men. It happens much more often; it is the cultural product of patriarchy, no doubt, in that men’s opinions are more valid than women, and as it has been used for centuries against women (from barring them from education to forcing them in marriages and refusing to allow them to partake in court). Gaslighting on women is distinctly tied to oppression of a whole sexual category, on the “other”, with the model of the man (which we endorsed ourselves! and then have it pervade society) as the paragon of what a “reasonable human” should do and be. Thus gaslighting on men is different, because arguably it comes from gender conformity, expectations and such -which can be said to be a form of oppression- but nonetheless, it has not been utilized as a technique of oppression of an entire sex (to which the privileged always benefits)!
Ecumenical studies are important -but so are sole focuses!
Your entire comment can be summed up by the statement “stop whining”.
Now what was that you were saying about techniques of oppression NOT being used systematically against men??
Not really. If you actually understood what i was saying – as summed in my last phrase- i’m saying that this article is not flawed just because it excludes men; that “sole focuses” are also important in fleshing out a deeper, rather than generalized umbrella-understanding and interpretation of issues.
Now what was i indeed saying about techniques of oppression NOT being used systematically against men? Hmm…well, i don’t quite remember, since i never made any universal statement saying that techniques of oppression was not used against men…But, you must be lacking understanding if you think that men, on the basis of their sex, are treated even remotely like a minority group as women have been and are.
It seems to be the case when woman are gaslighted, they are being discredited as being a proper functioning human being. When men are gaslighted, they often retain their validity of being a human – just not living up to be a “man” enough and vice versa &etc. (not saying that this is not a problem in itself -but that they are on different levels).
But, you must be lacking understanding if you think that men, on the basis of their sex, are treated even remotely like a minority group as women have been and are.
And that’s where you trip.
I find it odd that gender is not a zero sum game and that making comparisons of oppressions is Oppression Olympics. But the commonly used argument that men are not oppressed as men is “because they aren’t treated the way women are”.
….they often retain their validity of being a human – just not living up to be a “man” enough and vice versa &etc.
Actually when coupled with the mentality that a male is either a “real man” or nothing gaslighting a man does indeed stike at their validity as a human
I only trip if that statement is false. Please don’t misconstrue my words; I’m not saying just because men haven’t been oppressed like woman are, that they’re not, or they are to a lesser degree, just because it is not like that of women’s experience. I am saying that woman and the discourses of oppression has worked against them in a way very unlike that of which has been enacted against men. Perhaps i do make it sound too “oppression olympics” like, and for that i apologize, and will be more wary. I do understand the fact of complicated intersections (class, ethnicity, gender and sex) that effect privilege and oppression. Woman, by the fact that they are female, are not always less oppressed than any random man by the fact they are female. There are no one “true” and legitimate expressions of oppression and such. I know. But why don’t you wake up from your privilege and realize that in this regard, females have consistently struggled with less human rights than men?
What i have argued from the beginning is that female oppression inhabits a different space, scale and dimension than how males experience oppression. And thus this article is not illegitimate because it fails to integrate a male perspective (it warrants its own sole study).
You may be right on that part, though don’t you think that men who fail to live up to masculine expectations tend more to be relegated as a “shame”, rather than nothing? They’re a shame to the status of their genitals (“grow some balls!” / “man up!”/ “Hurry up, ladies!”). You are probably right that gas lighting does strike at their validity as a human being –especially if one merely considers the dimensions of the word “mankind”. Hate to sound like oppression Olympics again…but this seems to be a fact –men get relegated to being a shame, to nothing (which is fundamentally very much as being not a (mature) “man”/failing manhood) or as a “girl” – this speaks for itself. And woman? Nothing. Or a child at best.
But why don’t you wake up from your privilege and realize that in this regard, females have consistently struggled with less human rights than men?
I don’t recall trying to say that women have not struggled with this less than men and I actually am “awake” in that sense (but I don’t blame you for using the privilege argument for a fall back whenever a man disagrees with a woman on pretty much anything).
You may be right on that part, though don’t you think that men who fail to live up to masculine expectations tend more to be relegated as a “shame”, rather than nothing?
No. When shaming men over their failure to be a man its also a matter of “why do you exist.”, “you failed as a man so you’re of no use”, “you are nothing”. And I would say that being relegated at “a shame” is more like being compared to nothing. You’re not a man, you’re not a woman, you’re just a shame, not even human.
People try to play up the idea that being compared to a girl/woman is the worst thing a man has to face when its not.
Now I’m not trying to get into which shaming is worse, just trying to clarify how men are treated in that regard.
I reply, and then the page refreshes, and i lose everything…
Anyways, I am really sorry this has turned into some oppression battle. I am responsible for it too. But aaaarghhh, that all has fallen apart from what i have been trying to express. As since the beginning and throughout, what i have argued it is that it is OK for men not to be included in this article. We both know that men and woman experience privilege and oppression differently. Different discourses and mechanisms surrounds both. The history of female oppression is unlike the history of oppression males experience. Just like how the discourses that surrounds female rape and male rape are different, and should not be lumped together. There history impinges against them as different sites are active in female ‘gaslighting’ and male ‘gaslighting’. Thus it is acceptable that female gaslighting should be discussed in depth, without the necessity and demanding of inclusiveness and ‘equality’ of treatment by jamming in the male dimension. Female ‘gaslighting’ is distinct from men’s, and why cannot it be treated so.
It’s not the worst thing a man has to face. I know, though ironically and really distressingly, it is often men themselves who play up this idea. Though sadly, many insults men throw at each other, are attacks at the others’ masculinity (i.e. ‘faggot’, as thrown around by men at other men a lot – it is almost like in the case of the word ‘slut’ used by females against other females, but ‘slut’ is much, much more complex). And i just think about how all those perpetrators of major school shootings are male in genotype; as if those guns and going down in bravado is a last grasp and reclamation of masculinity. It is not the worst thing males can face -not at all, but sadly for many, it is just as bad.
True! It’s a man or nothing at all. Since man is ‘mankind’. Oh but to be ‘a shame’ is more like, You’re not living up to masculine ideals, you should have been something else -that is, he is a waste of being born a man. The insinuation is woman; as the formation of the male identity is also substituted by the negation of women. Ah, but that is all semantics, isn’t it. Men have to live up to the collective ideals of other men (and ultimately in this, what means and constitutes ‘mankind’). Woman do so too. But whereas men set these standards for man/mankind, ultimately woman are much more likely to fail to live up to these expectations. Not to say that these expectations males set for themselves, which through socialization society then perpetrates, don’t distress the hell out of me. But a great many has a personal interest to do so.
Perhaps you should write an article focusing on male gaslighting.
re that bug:
what usually happens when the page refreshes is that the unfinished comment text ends up at the bottom of the page as if you were replying to the main article. If you find it there and want to move it back up just click on “reply” under the comment you want to reply to.
What browser do you use? I’ve never lost a comment with Firefox.
Oh…i would have saved so much time…thanks for telling me; i will be wary of that if i need to reply next time.
I use chrome…i should go back to firefox.
Thanks a lot for telling me this!
Your first paragraph I can dig and I must share in the responsibility of derailing this as well.
It’s not the worst thing a man has to face. I know, though ironically and really distressingly, it is often men themselves who play up this idea. Though sadly, many insults men throw at each other, are attacks at the others’ masculinity (i.e. ‘faggot’, as thrown around by men at other men a lot – it is almost like in the case of the word ‘slut’ used by females against other females, but ‘slut’ is much, much more complex). And i just think about how all those perpetrators of major school shootings are male in genotype; as if those guns and going down in bravado is a last grasp and reclamation of masculinity. It is not the worst thing males can face -not at all, but sadly for many, it is just as bad.
You say that gaslighting isn’t the worse thing males can face and you mention school shootings. By chance have you considered that gaslighting could be a heavy contributor to those school shootings men go on? And one other thing I’ve noticed about challenges to masculinity. In my experience while men may challenge my masculinity more often than women, I have noticed that standing my ground to men actually works. Women on the other hand simply don’t listen when I respond. So I supposed it might also be ironic that considering that women have it so much worse than men when it comes to gaslighting that women themselves are among the most persistent and stubborn gaslighters of men?
Men have to live up to the collective ideals of other men (and ultimately in this, what means and constitutes ‘mankind’).
Please, let us not pretend that women do not contribute to the collective ideals that men are expected to face.
Oh but to be ‘a shame’ is more like, You’re not living up to masculine ideals, you should have been something else -that is, he is a waste of being born a man.
No its not quite “you should have been nothing else” but more like “you are nothing”.
I’m all for not trying to compare which is worse, but at the very least I have to ask.
Are you a man?
I don’t know, you should do a survey. Yes gaslighting is! And it is tied intimately with masculinity! Masculinity which is defined by that which is not, a negation; if women went around doing school shootings, it would be “Girl’s gone wild!” not “what is wrong with our kids?”
Because masculinity is negation against women, if you want to fight against male gaslighting then you must stand by women, as most of the language used against women, is that used to define what men should be.
You should also point your fingers at the media, at advertisement, too. They enforce the status quo in the minds of millions. Why did men originally pay for meals? Open doors? why were woman originally barred from higher education? &et cetera; that is to reinforce dependence of the woman, that the woman needed the man, in which the man presided over the woman. This is in the past. Yet still some of these etiquette exist. Is it woman’s fault who expect men to still do these? Men who feel like they have to? The fault of past patriarchy? They may be all responsible, but who can we hold accountable? (Should we even look there?) Most of the collective ideals men face; they have set up themselves (which makes me go out of my mind in frustration) -for example being stoic and self-denial -dates back all the way to ancient greece and what it meant to be a ‘real man’ -that is a man who goes to war and is able to abstain from his desires. And i think you will find this interesting: men who denied this and decided to chase skirts, and make them self attractive to women (make-up, perfume), were called effeminate. Effeminate for their over-indulgence of heterosexual desires and refusal to resist desire and go to war. The modern world, has turned this world over onto its head.
Example: in past china, at a time many women bounded their feet, is it fair to say women themselves contributed to the collective ideal of beauty (which as legend goes, was something made desirable by a king)? It is not false that they didn’t contribute, but at the same time, it feels unfair to say they did. A precarious position, and i think that it is almost like that with women and reinforcing male ideals. Except, of course, i think in this case women carry more responsibility in the status quo.
It is bad for me to mention this: but at least some men’s worth aren’t discredited if they aren’t ‘beautiful’. Anyways anyways. I won’t go there again.
Hm, I think i made my gender clear in the beginning?
“females have consistently struggled with less human rights than men”
As with most if not all of your complaints this simply is not true. I can easily name rights women have that men do not whereas you could not do the same for men having rights women lack.
This is why feminists are ignored by the vast majority of men and women. Most people simply don’t believe all this stuff about women being worse off. Even most women today think men are worse off than women are or else there’s no difference.
Wow – it is impossible for me to be more off-base than you.
Actually men have more bodily autonomy by the fact they do not have wombs. In my country, if a woman wants an abortion, pregnancy must be either 1) threatening to her continued existence, 2) detrimental to her mental-health. Basically, most women who want an abortion have to act like they will be mentally ill to not become a mother. A dead person can have more bodily autonomy and integrity than a living woman. And you cannot say this is a different case, for no father is forced to give up his bodily autonomy and donate some of his organs to his living child. Women’s reproductive rights are consistently in the throes, worse in the U.S.! Just look up the sad case of Angela Carder. Also, the history of forced sterilization of women. Anyways, it is ill of me to drag in abortion here, but it is necessary to demonstrate how naive what you say is.
Not to mention, for no reason at all, besides that men have male physiognomy, they are paid more. On average a woman who has a phD is paid the same as a man who has a BA (http://www.thepoliticalnotebook.com/post/8615256555/the-latest-in-the-gender-pay-gap-in-the-us-women & http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html). This pay gap feeds into their standard of living, opportunity &etc., no doubt. Oh but maybe for you to be able to live very well and be able to provide for themselves and their families is not a right women should have to much of.
I could go on, but i don’t want this to turn into a competition, since it’s not.
Why feminists are ignored is because of men who have made it like it is some terrible thing, when it is about equality. It is beneficial to both sexes, and yet it has been made into a derogatory word. If you believe that all humans should be treated equally and rightfully -you are a feminist! It does not deny men. Accuse me all you want, but you should see the looks other males have given me when i say i consider myself a feminist -even women. Even women who say they believe in their equality and yet say “but i’m not a feminist” as other men ask feminist woman “So are you lesbian” or “do you hate men”. Which is just naive and ignorant. A majority ignores feminists because it is not in their personal interest, because it has been cast as some kind of falsity and evil; and what is right is often forgotten by what is convenient. By the way, just because people think it, doesn’t mean it is true (e.g. Socrates’ death).
Rights are not just in law; they are human rights, to be treated as humans with dignity. Here’s a poem for you since you obviously do not get it.
“D.A. Clarke: privilege; a poem for men who don’t understand what we mean when we say they have it
privilege is simple:
going for a pleasant stroll after dark,
not checking the back of your car as you get in, sleeping soundly,
speaking without interruption, and not remembering
dreams of rape, that follow you all day, that woke you crying, and
privilege
is not seeing your stripped, humiliated body
plastered in celebration across every magazine rack, privilege
is going to the movies and not seeing yourself
terrorized, defamed, battered, butchered
seeing something else
privilege is
riding your bicycle across town without being screamed at or
run off the road, not needing an abortion, taking off your shirt
on a hot day, in a crowd, not wishing you could type better
just in case, not shaving your legs, having a decent job and
expecting to keep it, not feeling the boss’s hand up your crotch,
dozing off on late-night busses, privilege
is being the hero in the TV show not the dumb broad,
living where your genitals are totemized not denied,
knowing your doctor won’t rape you
privilege is being
smiled at all day by nice helpful women, it is
the way you pass judgment on their appearance with magisterial authority,
the way you face a judge of your own sex in court and
are over-represented in Congress and are not strip searched for a traffic ticket
or used as a dart board by your friendly mechanic, privilege
is seeing your bearded face reflected through the history texts
not only of your high school days but all your life, not being
relegated to a paragraph
every other chapter, the way you occupy
entire volumes of poetry and more than your share of the couch unchallenged,
it is your mouthing smug, atrocious insults at women
who blink and change the subject — politely — privilege
is how seldom the rapist’s name appears in the papers
and the way you smirk over your PLAYBOY
it’s simple really, privilege
means someone else’s pain, your wealth
is my terror, your uniform
is a woman raped to death here, or in Cambodia or wherever
wherever your obscene privilege
writes your name in my blood, it’s that simple,
you’ve always had it, that’s why it doesn’t
seem to make you sick to your stomach,
you have it, we pay for it, now
do you understand”
“In my country, if a woman wants an abortion, pregnancy must be either 1) threatening to her continued existence, 2) detrimental to her mental-health. ”
You are so lucky to have that many rights. As a man I have none of those. Neither do any men in countries where women have even more rights.
You also mentioned wages which is not a right of course (and it’s also simply false to suggest men get paid more than women for the same work).
To repeat: you claimed women have few rights than men and i asked for an example. Just one. I am asking for just ONE example please.
Short reply (maybe more later but if so I’ll start anew at the left and margin as we’re almost at maximum depth).
Excuse? Just because it’s better than some; does not mean it is the best nor is it good, just because it is “good enough”. If something is bad, it is still bad, not good just because it is better than.
I think men don’t have abortion rights because………..they don’t have wombs. They can’t grow and carry a baby for 9 months (the exception being non-cisgender cases). Why in the world would you bemoan this? It can’t even apply to your body! So it is not lack of; because it never applied to you in the first place. But for women, there is a lack of rights here.
So the right to equal pay and treatment is not a right? and no it is not false; it is true. Please go and research it yourself. Just google it. In my case, it was in my country’s national statistics report.
You know what: why don’t you name a few rights that men don’t have that women do, that applies accordingly.
And to repeat: i have claimed women have fewer humans rights than men, although in law they may be equal (officially, anyways) and should be treated as full human beings, the de-facto truth is that women are treated with less human rights.
LOL perfect summation. love it.
Leslie – I love you :3
Leslie – it’s conceivable that men are actually raped MORE than women. But hey! This is a male forum for ….men who need to be told how to be men by women.
Men are victims of DV, but …who knew? Who cares?
Men are molested. By women. By women who get a slap on the wrist, because women aren’t bad like men are. It’s “getting lucky”.
Men are gaslighted into getting thier brains damaged, blown to bits, handed to them on a platter to “protect” Mother, God and County. ” I”l wait for your return” isn’t gaslighting. You can’t expect me to wait around while you’re having fun playing John Wayne.
Rampant homelessness, suicides, loss of children in family court, loss of life in work accidents, war…and still being told you are selfish and priviledged isn’t “Gaslighting”.
It’s being priviledged.
What do you mean it is ‘conceivable’ -it is TRUTH.
I do not deny female rapists and male rape. No way.
But i perceive something else is happening when 1 in 5 women get raped and for men it is about 1 in 33 -theoretically you merely need to walk into a class room to be in the same room as a woman who has been raped, whereas for men, more likely a shopping mall or grocery store. Is not something else entirely happening to women?
I’m not denying any of these, but different things are happening to both men and women…obviously. It is complex; as in the same time men have gaslighted to getting their brain blown to bits; this has been an allowance of excuse to take out their anxieties, frustration, fear &etc., on not only women, but others.
When someone says you’re privileged, it’s not being told off, it’s not supposed to shame you or such. When someone points out privilege, it is saying that you have blind spots, that from your position, you may not be able to relate something. And yes, sometimes women need to tell men how to be HUMANS. As vice versa.
oops – mean it can be conceivable for men to be raped more than women, but the fact is that it is not (i am talking about the US here). You need to look here: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
also, correction 1 in 6 women rather than 1 in 5. My apologies for inaccuracy there from reciting from memory. but basically still the FACT is: 2.78 million men and 17.7 million women (American). Tell me if something else is not happening to women.
Sorry, but I have to inform you that the feminist site you are using is wrong about its statistics.
If you look at the source it says, “Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey”. That’s not a survey but a report on a survey. The actual survey is the NVAWS or National Violence Against Women Survey. As the name implied it was a survey about violence against women, not men. It was a survey that feminists asked for and it reflects feminist discrimination and anti-male bias. There’s a lot of bias in the survey but what concerns us here is the rape data. NVAWS defined rape in such a way that a woman raping a man wouldn’t count. It only counted as rape if men were raped the way a woman typically is — by penetration. Even so the NVAWS found that men were raped at 1/3rd the rate women were. Even when excluding most rape of men deliberately.
Did your web site know they were passing on a lie? Maybe. As i say the whole system is built on lies. The NVAWS was created because of feminist complaints about other surveys. It was part of the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). You’ll probably here a lot about how sexist that law was — lobbied for by all the feminist groups.
It’s also out of date. The new survey which does the same thing is called the NISVS and it did bother to ask men if they were raped (although it continued to refuse to call it rape when it happens to men, and continued to publish a lie saying men were raped less based on its classifying most male rape as something else). But it did record that men were “made to penetrate” at the same rate that women were “raped”.
It then failed to mention that fact in its press releases or summary.
Do you need help proving what I just said is true? you can Google NVAWS and NISVS and get the full report pdfs on-line.
To be honest, this is very upsetting. That you would call a survey that focus on women violence sexist. That is beyond. And just because feminist groups are involved – then that is sexist and tampered with. Yes yes, the dept of justice publishes fake rape records for feminists. That is leaps of logic and conspiracy theory.
By the way, it’s not too outdated. It is 2000 -2005.
And by the way, do you know about strap-ons?….That basically discredits your defining it in a way ‘raping a man wouldn’t count’.
By the way, the NISVS is about ‘intimate partners’ , and i’m talking about rape *inclusive* of those done against others by people they do not know. That is more accurate (although the amount of un-reported rapes is probably terrifying). Anyways, the NISVS survey is exclusive, not inclusive.
Anyways, i see you have been called ‘feminist troll extraordinaire’.
Until you finish the homework assigned to you here: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2011/10/09/gender-studies-homework-nvaws-and-think-of-the-men/
i will not reply to you, as for one who even thinks one life is entirely insignificant, is it possible i think you are not deserving of any more of my time.
Do you support posting those false statistics then? Deceitfully representing figures that ignore about 75% of male rape as if they were an accurate measure of how often men are raped? That wasn’t the only way that site distorted the figures by the way.
If you don’t think that feminists were behind that survey just look up the history of VAWA. You appear to have been honest enough with yourself to do some homework there.
I’m just throwing this stuff at you to see how you react. Do you think someone who was in favour of equality would have reacted as you did?
NISVS is the new version of a broadly similar survey so, yes, the page is out of date. I imagine they will shift to using the NISVS figures but will again misrepresent the data to suggest male rape happens far less than it does.
As for “stap-ons” you’re missing the point which is pretty simple. Those figures you used for male rape are NOT figures for male rape. They are a distorted set of figures for a small minority of male rape. Do you think that is honest? You were the one lied to after all. You trusted that site and it turned out you were talking to someone who knew enough about the topic to recognise the deceit and explain to you exactly where the figures really did come from.
If not for me you’d be off repeating that false data now. I guess that’s how the whole feminist system works. Same with how you said women were paid less money for the same work. Not true. Maybe you heard from a feminist site that women had fewer rights? Also not true.
You have not finished your homework. Got back to: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2011/10/09/gender-studies-homework-nvaws-and-think-of-the-men/
But
p.s. where do you get your data of all the ‘real’ male rape that is happening, conceivably, at a rate more than women? and if it’s only conceivable then……………………
p.p.s. If not for you, i would not have another inch of belief in humanity lost.
You just don’t like being judged as a man in this reading. It threatens your “Man Card”
look at history and society and you will see that he makes great points here that hold true.
All people can suffer from this, its understanding the idea and what is wrong with how people treat others to make themselves feel better that is the main focus here.
So grow some balls, man up and open your eyes.
I am willing to bet that you are very guilty of doing this to other people in your life, whether they are men or women.
This article reminds me of this site. This is obviously not some novel idea as some commenters believe. Whether or not they choose to believe in ‘gaslighting’, this kind of manipulation is a form of abuse and it’s a phenomenon that more and more women and men are becoming aware of…
http://www.youarenotcrazy.com/
this dreadful article was thankfully sliding down the popular post list – now it is back up to 2nd place. how??? why???
ive been watching for awhile, there are barely any new posts. how is the popularity of this piece being measured?
by new posts? by likes? by page views?
No, gaslighting is not responsible for the generalized tendencies of women vs men and how we respectively react to things.
But Im sure you got lots of great comments from supportive ladies.
I wonder of pandering is a form of positive gaslighting
Thank you for this article. I am that woman- who can’t have a voice because I am too sensitive, too emotional, too crazy. My boyfriend says these things to me constantly… He went out of town, out of the state and didn’t tell me. I found out and asked him about it when I hadn’t heard from him all day. And he told me I was over-reacting. I shut down and didn’t respond and actually apologized. Now I get it– I get what he is doing intentional or not. And it’s not going to happen anymore. Thank you a million times over.
I wish dealing with women were only so easy as “you’re overreacting”. It’s good to hear that you’ve made the decision to stand your ground.
Anyways, I agree with many of the other people commenting here, that Yashar is wrong in portraying women as the sole victims of gaslighting.
Just because sometimes the smoke alarm goes off when you cooking bacon doesn’t mean it’s never a fire.
I think the point of this article is that “gaslighting” goes back a long way. Just google “hysteria” if you’re interested. At one point, scientists actually believed that women who were dissatisfied or didn’t stay in their place were “hysterical,” and they were even committed to mental institutions. In a broader sense, “gaslighting” includes deluding girls into thinking they are not as smart as boys and that their self-worth lies mostly in their looks. It also includes shaming them into thinking they are responsible for bad male behavior toward them (including domestic abuse and rape).
I find men’s points about being told to “man up” or called “less of a man” for some behavior or another to only further prove the author’s main point about sexism in society. Strictly enforced gender binaries negatively affect men, too. These shaming views used against men are perpetuated by the same ultra-male value system that writes off women’s feelings.
I am male. I recently had my feelings hurt by an outburst of a platonic female friend. I explained that my feelings were hurt, and she called me a douchebag, made fun of me in public in front of my friends, and when I finally demanded an apology from her she said I was too sensitive. She is completely failing to own responsibility for being hurtful and it is unfair treatment. This article is sexist, pure and simple. These argument tactics are unfair in any situation. Wow, he saw an old movie, great. I am hetero and have been emotionally manipulated by women. I have also been in arguments with women where it was completely appropriate to tell them they were overreacting and to calm down so we could have an actual conversation instead of yelling.
I would just like to take this chance to say what all of us have been thinking. Women are crazy, they overreact, are overly emotional, irrational, and need to learn how to take a joke.
I think crazy women are the best
Leslie:
Why feminists are ignored is because of men who have made it like it is some terrible thing, when it is about equality.
That’s only a part of the problem. The full reason its ignored (where ignored seems to range from disagreeing with parts of it to not just blindly accepting its ideology as undeniable fact) is what you say plus the fact that there are indeed feminists who do make that movement out to be a terrible thing.
I’m glad that for you it means equality but for others it simply doesn’t.
It is beneficial to both sexes, and yet it has been made into a derogatory word.
And just like feminists that want to say that men need to look inword as to why we have issues that affect us, feminists need to do the same. You’ll see that while you personally may not have contributed to it there are a lot of people among feminists themselves you have to thank for some of that derogatory stench that’s attached to that word.
If you believe that all humans should be treated equally and rightfully -you are a feminist!
This is another example of why people can get so hostile with feminists. People have their own, some valid, some not, reasons for not identifying as a feminist. For a feminist to just come along and basically say, “Your reasons don’t matter, you’re a feminist because I said so.” comes off as very condesending and dismissive. In fact its not too different than sweeping in and telling a woman that she doesn’t doesn’t suffer any oppressions as a woman (and BTW there A LOT of feminists that say that men don’t suffer any oppressions because they are men).
And to me that comes off as hypocritical. A movement that prides itself on fighting for the right for everyone to be able to pick and chose their own labels as they see fit rather than having thrust upon them, having members that go around thrusting the label feminist on people who don’t want it.
…and It does not deny men.
Unfortunately with the way some of them practice feminism it does just that. For one example telling a black man in one breath that when he’s stereotyped as a violent criminal that its okay to raise concern over being stereotyped that way because he’s black but in the next breath say that its not okay to raise concern over being stereotyped that way because he’s a man. Black men aren’t stereotyped as violent criminals more than any other gender/race combination (in the States at least) because they’re black, its because they are the specific combination of black and man. That’s denial. And yes there are feminists among those that engage in that behavior.
Accuse me all you want, but you should see the looks other males have given me when i say i consider myself a feminist -even women. Even women who say they believe in their equality and yet say “but i’m not a feminist” as other men ask feminist woman “So are you lesbian” or “do you hate men”. Which is just naive and ignorant.
Have you questioned those women about why they don’t ID as feminist? Have you question those men why they might think feminists hate men? (I’m not touching that lesbian bit because that’s irrelevant and and an unfair thing to ask.) If you did you could see that quite a few of us are not naive and ignorant. We just have different experiences with feminism than you do. And in fact I’m almost tempted to say that you are being naive and ignorant to think that the only reason someone would not ID as such or have certain presumptions in their heads is because of naivety and ignorance.
A majority ignores feminists because it is not in their personal interest, because it has been cast as some kind of falsity and evil; and what is right is often forgotten by what is convenient.
I wonder how many people that don’t ID as feminist do so because its been “cast as some kind of falsity and evil”. I hear that a lot but on a regular basis I come across people who have attempted to interact with feminists and got burned through no fault of their own. But with the way feminists talk you’d think there has never been a single bit of negativity in the entire history of the movement. (Although for the record this also means I’m not certain of DavidByron’s assertion that most women think men are worse off and I certainly don’t think the complaints you raise aren’t true.)
As for the poem you bring up yes those are very real examples of male privilege. However the existence of those privileges in and of themselves do not disprove neither the existence of female privilege or the oppression of men as men. I’m glad that you don’t seem to wield that poem in that manner but simply put Leslie, a lot of them do.
You cannot relegate the fact of why feminism is ignored in four sentences.
So many other factors converge. You seem to take the most extreme of feminism and use it as evidence to discredit the rest. Feminism in its desire for woman’s liberation has spawned up ideas as extreme as the belief all “real” feminists should be lesbians and et cetera (this ties in with the ideal of female independence and such). But these are the extremes of Feminism, like the extremes of religion, and do not represent the whole. Feminism, at its core is undeniably about equality, although the diverse ways in which people aim for it may seem less than, but nonetheless, the desires in whence it springs from, is this.
To be honest, to be picky about the label, is about the same as being picky about being said that you are a believe in human rights, or something. And would you get displeased and picky over that? People should research feminism and truly understand what it is about, rather than second hand pass-downs and socialized understandings, meanings -perceptions- of the word. To be honest, people who have good reasons to refuse the label feminist are simply unknowing or want to avoid the constructed stigma around the word. It rather comes off hypocritical that you believe in equality for men, but you wouldn’t consider feminism…(by the way, i have not yet personally encountered a feminist who wholly denies male oppression, but they do poke fun at males -like that recent case of a man suing a studio for “gender discrimination”, because they hired too many women instead!)
Let’s not conflate gender, ethnicity and class into the mix, okay? People experience oppression as a convergence of this multiplicities, some dominating, some not. The Caucasian women is less oppressed than the African-American man, but woe betide the double oppressed African-American female that is hyper-sexualized and also victim of racial stereotypes. And why is it valid, to use some feminists, that happen to provide what you want to convey, to trump all others???
And by the way, it is more complex than just black and man – for example, the fact that prisons are privatized in the US, and the history of black america. Furthermore, at the same time males are stereotyped for being more violent, it becomes stereotyped that women are docile creatures of submissiveness. That it is “out of the ordinary” for women to be violent; at the same time men are made hyper-violent, women too are being denied the various facets of being human (feeling anger, expressing anger). And at the same time men are made to swallow their feelings, women are made to feel that they are the unstable ones. Feminism is to the aide of both sexes, although you may be turned off by the fact that it impinges on woman, ultimately, can it not liberate men, too? For most of the gaslighting men experience is a contrast with stereotypes of women. To say “what’s wrong with being a woman?” is to corrode other men saying “What a girlie/sissy/pussy!” & et cetera.
Yes i did question: the women just shrugged -like “i don’t know! But i won’t be caught out being on of those!” (and pray tell whence does this stigma come from? Perhaps ‘who benefits?’ is a good place to look?) Whilst the other guys won’t even engage in conversation with me and just rolled their eyes! It is like they don’t even know clearly why it is bad, except that it’s about women too much.
People probably get burned because of passion, because they probably refused to see, and those feminists probably got annoyed. But i don’t want to make excuses for them; i do not know them. Though it is uncanny that i can see how you would get burned by some feminists.
Anyways, why don’t you forget all those extremist feminists, and see me as an example of feminism?
Do you actually know much about feminism Leslie? Do you know how much influence the anti-male political lesbianism (ie sex segregationism) has on the movement for example? You claim that if people knew more they would say feminism was OK. In my experience the opposite is true and I think I know more about feminism than you do.
This is getting pretty long Leslie. If we keep this up we’ll end up put on blast like Joanna and DavidByron did the other day.
You cannot relegate the fact of why feminism is ignored in four sentences.
So many other factors converge. You seem to take the most extreme of feminism and use it as evidence to discredit the rest.
No what I was trying to say is that the reasons that are often sited as to why feminism is ignored or feminists are mistreated are a lot more than the fact that feminists are unfairly stigmatized. And also its not always the extreme ones that are doing the things I describe. Oh if only it were…
Feminism in its desire for woman’s liberation has spawned up ideas as extreme as the belief all “real” feminists should be lesbians and et cetera (this ties in with the ideal of female independence and such). But these are the extremes of Feminism, like the extremes of religion, and do not represent the whole. Feminism, at its core is undeniably about equality, although the diverse ways in which people aim for it may seem less than, but nonetheless, the desires in whence it springs from, is this.
And reason people have a hard time believing this is because people with ideas that others among feminists would like to believe are limited to the extreme fringes are not. While there are political and ideological lesbians (and here I was thinking it was about sexual orientation, not making a political statement) among them I’m talking about more covert and insidious things. Like the belief that men cannot be oppressed as men. Like the idea that female privilege does not exist. Like the idea that its okay to in one breath say men are important and in the next actively deny their experiences when they don’t fit the conclusions feminist ideology has already drawn about the experiences of men.
To be honest, to be picky about the label, is about the same as being picky about being said that you are a believe in human rights, or something. And would you get displeased and picky over that?
If its a matter of being picky about it then why insist on thrusting the label on people who don’t want it? Why not be okay with the idea that they can see eye to eye with you but not want the label? And also “believer in human rights” is an exact idea while “feminist” is a label that comprises different ideas. I’m content with not being called a feminist. Why is it so important to feminists to go around calling people feminists if its not that big of a deal?
People should research feminism and truly understand what it is about, rather than second hand pass-downs and socialized understandings, meanings -perceptions- of the word.
Agreed. And when they do and meet the people they meet and have the experiences they have are told something like this:
To be honest, people who have good reasons to refuse the label feminist are simply unknowing or want to avoid the constructed stigma around the word.
Can you not see why people would be put off by that? I have been personally insulted by feminists. I have had my experiences denied by feminists. I have been told by feminists that the body image issues I have as a fat man has nothing to do with me being a man but that its all about the fat (because apparently fat women have body issues that pertain to the fat and their gender but men just have gender neutral body image issues I guess). I have been told by feminists there is no such thing as sexism against men. I have been told by feminists that the fact that when I was growing up I was expressly told that its okay for girls to hit boys for any reason that boys should never hit girls, even in self defense just didn’t happen. And the list goes on.
So yes I have experience on it and its not an attempt at trying to avoid the stigma of the word. (If that were the case I wouldn’t call myself a gamer, otaku, and I would get mad when someone tries to call me an MRA sympathizer. Oh and by all means call me a feminist sympathizer if you want. I most certainly agree with a lot of their views. But I’m no feminist.)
I don’t mean to dump on you Leslie but with all that baggage to have you sweep in and tell me that I’m:
It rather comes off hypocritical that you believe in equality for men, but you wouldn’t consider feminism…(by the way, i have not yet personally encountered a feminist who wholly denies male oppression, but they do poke fun at males -like that recent case of a man suing a studio for “gender discrimination”, because they hired too many women instead!)
…coming off as hypocrital for believe in equality for men but that I wouldn’t consider feminism?
I did consider feminism Leslie. In fact I actually started interacting with feminists with the literal attitude of, “Okay there is no way feminists are really that bad right? Surely its overexaggeration.”
And you know what I learned the hard way? That a lot of it was overexaggeration but there were parts of it that were suprisingly true.
For a while I was consumed by wild irrational anger at feminists. But one thing for certian and three things for sure.
1. I didn’t start with that wild irrational anger from get go. Yes I went too far but to say you took something too far means there was something to take in the first place.
2. I’m cooling off and leaning back. Its great to see that you all aren’t like that Leslie but let me tell you:
3. You are not going to gain much favor with non-feminists like us if you insist on going around and just deciding that the only reason we have a negative disposition with feminism is because we’re “naive and ignorant” or “we don’t consider feminism” or “we’re trying to paint the extreme up as the whole”. Yes there are non-feminists among us like that. But for the rest of us you are doing no good in healing the wounds we’ve taken at the hands of other feminists. In fact commentary like that has a better chance of reopening them than getting us to “see the light” so to speak (which is what I think some of you are hoping for, that we’ll just buy the “there’s no negativity in feminism” bit without thinking about it. its too late for that because we know that’s a lie).
And by the way, it is more complex than just black and man – for example, the fact that prisons are privatized in the US, and the history of black america.
Which do you think came first. The stereotyping of black men as violent criminals (or criminals in general) or the prison industry in the US?
Furthermore, at the same time males are stereotyped for being more violent, it becomes stereotyped that women are docile creatures of submissiveness.
I don’t recall saying that didn’t happen because at the moment it was about stereotyping people as criminals that’s why I said men. But since you mention it yes that is true of women.
Feminism is to the aide of both sexes, although you may be turned off by the fact that it impinges on woman, ultimately, can it not liberate men, too?
For the record the fact that feminism impinges on women is NOT a reason it turns me off. In fact that’s something I see as good thing because as has been said there are plenty of issues that harm women and would not dare try to say that there should be no movement that centers around them. However I think its possible to empower women without having to deny men and their experiences. A good number of feminists regularly make out the damage that’s done to men to be a side effect of some overall plan to oppress women rather than the built in feature that it is.
I don’t expect men to become the top priority of feminism because that would be unfair to women. On the other hand if feminists are going to claim they are siding with men then isn’t there a way to do it without trying to treat us like the damage that men suffer is just acceptable collateral damage from trying to harm women?
Anyways, why don’t you forget all those extremist feminists, and see me as an example of feminism?
Actually I’m thinking that now. And while you are a better impression that a lot of what I’ve seen from feminists the one thorn that sticks out with you is one from above. Your seeming insistence to want to tell me that I either haven’t given feminism a chance, or that I’m believing unfair genearlizations about it rather than gaining my own experience with it, or that I’m trying to say the entire movement is bad because of the bad apples (while at one time I’ll admit I did but I’m coming back from that).
No the the bad apples shouldn’t spoil the bunch. But once you’ve gotten a mouth full of rotten apple and worm can you blame someone for not wanting to eat another apple? Mind you I’ll agree that its not right to go around burning down every apple tree I see because of a few bad apples but at the same time isn’t it understandable that someone simply wouldn’t want to eat apples anymore after that? To equate this latest bit of exchange I’m a guy that has said he doesn’t want to eat anymore apples because of eating bad ones a while back and you are telling me that I have no experience with apples and should actually eat some before forming an opinion on them.
I shouldn’t auto-hate you because you’re a feminist that’s for sure. But at the same time don’t think you’re owed auto-like just because you’re a feminist either. But a fair chance you do deserve regardless of what labels you carry. And truthfully one thing I’ll give extreme feminists over a lot of over ones. At least they are willing to wear their disregard for men on their sleeve and make it known up front rather than trying to trick men into putting women first, last, and only. Again its not that you don’t seem to be doing that but there are too many that do.
Yes I often prefer the radical feminists (so-called) because they are more honest about what they believe in and I value honesty.
i prefer radical feminists because they confirm my stereotypes about women and I value anything that lines up with my worldview and confirms what I already think.
Fixed that for you.
Why am I not surprised we have a bunch of guys showing up wanting to make it a contest. The article never asserts that the reverse of this is never done to men. It focuses on a very real phenomenon that has become so ingrained in the culture we don’t even notice it anymore.
wow this is so lengthy!
Yes, though you are more reasonable than by half to that DavidByron guy. I am not going to even bother with him. He cannot see reason, or possibility. And even though i think i am insignificant, i would not waste my time on him any longer.
Anyways, well, i am a feminist in my own terms. Feminism is not defined as What Is by the believers who have different interpretations, but by its core tenets. It is like defining Communism by Stalin.
Personally, i no way deny male oppression or female privilege. And neither do all the feminists i know. Though if you talk to some of them about female privilege, they’ll probably roll eyes at you, because they are talking about something different, and you are making it about something else. Like when someone is talking about female rape, and someone interrupt and says “well females rape men too” (and as in the US, 1 in 6 women get raped and 1 in 33 men – something else entirely is going on with women that is not happening the way it is to men). Women have always often been relegated to a paragraph, and when they want to speak about their rights, other people shoot them down, and i think that’s why lots of feminists may be defensive – as i said, though i shouldn’t make excuses, these may be some reasons why. And if one has a conversation with a feminist and say “what about your female privilege?” what do you think this is doing? It is no conversation at all when woman speaks about male privilege and men say “what about men” and so when will it ever be about women? The longer woman is kept in stasis, so are rigid roles of masculinity for men to be pressured into. Maybe we should take oaths of recognition of privilege before conversation first? Hm.
I see. I am sorry that you have encountered unsavory feminists. To be honest, there is no negativity in feminism for me. Feminism is ideology; it is not the radicals, it is not me, even. It is the core of its ideology -which is equality. It is like you have gone fishing in the ocean, but have caught foul fish all the time -but that does not capture the ocean, does it? Anyways, it’s okay, I am not looking for favor.
“Which do you think came first. The stereotyping of black men as violent criminals (or criminals in general) or the prison industry in the US?”
I am sure slavery by white colonial powers came first &etc.
“I don’t expect men to become the top priority of feminism because that would be unfair to women. On the other hand if feminists are going to claim they are siding with men then isn’t there a way to do it without trying to treat us like the damage that men suffer is just acceptable collateral damage from trying to harm women?”
Thanks for understanding that. Well, it is not acceptable damage, but really, it does seem like a lot of the pressures men put on themselves comes from the obsession of binary genders! Well, sometimes the truth hurts. Though yeh, it is not acceptable that there be injury (though i don’t know any feminists who says it is???) Woman are trying to reverse damage done to them, it is the fact that the improvement of their welfare is in their best interests. At the same time they have taken a lot of damage from being women in man’s quest for masculinity, we must ask ourselves then: is it so unfair for men to bear with it as they seek progress which will ultimately benefit both? Though, yes, it should not be acceptable in ways that no hurt is, but it is. Ultimately, we must also be active and work in co-operation. Don’t we have a role to bear it? Since, don’t men hold much responsibility for the status quo? Anyways, most importantly: it is definitely not the case all the damage men undergo are from undermining women, so i don’t know about others who say so.
“But once you’ve gotten a mouth full of rotten apple and worm can you blame someone for not wanting to eat another apple? Mind you I’ll agree that its not right to go around burning down every apple tree I see because of a few bad apples but at the same time isn’t it understandable that someone simply wouldn’t want to eat apples anymore after that?”
I would be wary; nonetheless, it is ultimately what does the tree mean to me? Not the rotten apples with worms. I will still cherish the tree and tend to it.
Well it seems you have a lot of feminist frustration. But what will telling me do? You give me all these examples of what other feminists say: what am i supposed to do? As you see the difference between feminists, there is no use telling me what you find wrong with feminists as it is not wrong in me. And you are talking to me. What you hold towards feminism seems to be mainly this: feminists. As opposed to Feminism itself.
And anyways; remember my argument which all this come from is:
That this article is not is no illegitimate just because it solely focuses on women.
@ Leslie
So basically you said women had less rights but you can’t think of a single example? Despite that fact you continue to insist that, “the de-facto truth is that women are treated with less human rights”
What am I supposed to think about what happened just there? You made a claim that is foundational to your beliefs. You were certain about it. Jeered at me for doubting it. Then you proved that it was false. Then you insisted it was true anyway.
If you were in my position what would you conclude?
Wow. Getting pretty seriously long here Leslie.
I don’t know, you should do a survey. Yes gaslighting is! And it is tied intimately with masculinity! Masculinity which is defined by that which is not, a negation; if women went around doing school shootings, it would be “Girl’s gone wild!” not “what is wrong with our kids?”
No it would be “what’s wrong with our girls” with people suddenly wanted to add gender to the mix when talking about school shootings.
Because masculinity is negation against women, if you want to fight against male gaslighting then you must stand by women, as most of the language used against women, is that used to define what men should be.
And I’ll do that as soon as long as women stop using that language. If most of it is used against women then it should be easy for them stop using it even against men right?
You should also point your fingers at the media, at advertisement, too. They enforce the status quo in the minds of millions. Why did men originally pay for meals? Open doors? why were woman originally barred from higher education? &et cetera; that is to reinforce dependence of the woman, that the woman needed the man, in which the man presided over the woman. This is in the past. Yet still some of these etiquette exist. Is it woman’s fault who expect men to still do these? Men who feel like they have to? The fault of past patriarchy? They may be all responsible, but who can we hold accountable? (Should we even look there?)
I’d be fine with holding them all accountable. But to me it seems like people want to pick and choose with the accountability. I think all three were getting some sort of benefit as well as two of them getting some sort of punishment. But some want to act like only two of them were getting some benefit and only one of them was getting punished.
Most of the collective ideals men face; they have set up themselves (which makes me go out of my mind in frustration) -for example being stoic and self-denial -dates back all the way to ancient greece and what it meant to be a ‘real man’ -that is a man who goes to war and is able to abstain from his desires. And i think you will find this interesting: men who denied this and decided to chase skirts, and make them self attractive to women (make-up, perfume), were called effeminate. Effeminate for their over-indulgence of heterosexual desires and refusal to resist desire and go to war. The modern world, has turned this world over onto its head.
Actually I don’t think its been turned on its head. If anything depending on where you are and who you are dealing with a “real man” could be considered one that is all about war and abstaining from desires and/or one that chased skirts. But what makes me go out of my mind is that when I’m trying to break down those collective ideals women are the biggest barriers, in my experience anyway. I’m sure you’re familiar with the idea that a “real man” is a man who is a man on his own terms? I happen to agree with that. And that idea seems to run common among even men who embrace stereotypical ideas of masculinity. That exact idea is preciesly why I’ve had a much easier time dealing with men who question my masculinity that women who do.
Example: in past china, at a time many women bounded their feet, is it fair to say women themselves contributed to the collective ideal of beauty (which as legend goes, was something made desirable by a king)? It is not false that they didn’t contribute, but at the same time, it feels unfair to say they did. A precarious position, and i think that it is almost like that with women and reinforcing male ideals. Except, of course, i think in this case women carry more responsibility in the status quo.
Actually I have no feelings of unfairness about saying they did as long as the entire story is told. And that’s my thing. People get selective about when they want to tell the entire story. Sure people will trip over themselves to talk about how those women did contribute yet it “wasn’t that simple” that same courtesy isn’t extended to men who sign up for military service because they had to support their families. No that just ends up as “wars happen because of men”.
I’d be fine with neverminding the “who is more responsible” part of the arguemnt. Problem is people seem to want to try to render entire groups as having no role to play in it.
It is bad for me to mention this: but at least some men’s worth aren’t discredited if they aren’t ‘beautiful’. Anyways anyways. I won’t go there again.
Sure we can go there. On the other side of that coin is fact that men just aren’t discredited if they arne’t beautiful but being “beautiful” is actually held as a strike against men. Might as well say “at least some women’s worth aren’t being descredited if they aren’t lustful” (which is because being lustful is pretty much regarded as a strike against women).
Hm, I think i made my gender clear in the beginning?
I saw “Because we males always need the attention, too, don’t we?” earlier but I took that as quoting/paraphrasing men possibly so I wasn’t sure.
Yes, it is getting too long; and too off topic!
Actually; no, because even with all these boys and school shootings, these headlines don’t go “What’s wrong with our males?” or “What is wrong with masculinity?” etc.,
“And I’ll do that as soon as long as women stop using that language. If most of it is used against women then it should be easy for them stop using it even against men right?”
Both parties should stop; but what is the route: to say; Hey, there is nothing wrong with being a woman, a woman should not be an insult or shame. So stop saying it like so to other men. Doubtlessly, woman need to be aware too. Socialization runs deep. But if men are role models for other men, then it should be them first who need to be very active in doing this too, no?
Who is accountable for the status quo but everybody; though some more than others, that is for sure.
No it really has been turned on its head! The american image of the football boy with his car, slick hair-style and women; that would have been effeminate in the past! Anyways, i’m just saying it’s something interesting to note. Also that: You know for sure a guy is straight if he hangs out with his guy-friends a lot! Oh the conundrums of masculinity.
“A real man is a man on his own terms”
In a way i can relate to this, as i am a feminist on my own terms. Feminists don’t define me, just as you would hope that other men do not define you being male. However, this kind of attitude is closely tied with masculinity (taking charge of themselves/pride/not taking orders from anyone else and such/making their own name) as well as being related to the “boys will be boys” mentality. So of course it is no surprise it is shared along with those males who embrace stereotypical masculinity. And also; consider that other males are empowered as being males by other males who do engage in those common acts of masculinity, especially if they cannot achieve it themselves.
It would be good if there was no “real” man and just a “decent human being”.
Ok then. Well, though men are also expected to be “naturally” dashing (minimal effort to maintain his looks), nonetheless woman face much more aesthetic pressure. No competition there really.
Actually; no, because even with all these boys and school shootings, these headlines don’t go “What’s wrong with our males?” or “What is wrong with masculinity?” etc.,
Exactly. Take gang violence for example. For the most part when it was young boys taking part in gang violence it was just a question of qhy kids are getting into gangs. But a few years ago when it was noticed that girls were getting into ganga and engaging in similar violence the question because “why are girls getting into gangs?”. When it comes to certain things, especially violence, its gendered as male by a lot of people to the point that the mere thought of a female committing violence seems like an anomoly (its not as much of an anomoly as people woul dlike to believe, but that truth gets in the way of their chivalry based notions that “girls/women don’t do stuff like that”). Not too different from the way eating disorders, depression, and body image issues are gendered as female but now that its becoming clear that these things are affecting men/boys in larger number than people are comfortable admitting its suddenly “what’s going on to cause men/boys to have such issue?”.
Both parties should stop; but what is the route: to say; Hey, there is nothing wrong with being a woman, a woman should not be an insult or shame. So stop saying it like so to other men. Doubtlessly, woman need to be aware too. Socialization runs deep. But if men are role models for other men, then it should be them first who need to be very active in doing this too, no?
Actually I was thinking it would need to be a team effort. Or else you’ll just acting like women play no part in that deep running socialization. And considering its often said that women are unfairly burdened with child care then doesn’t that mean that women are on the front line of preventing those attitudes from continuing in the form of spending the majority of the time with children in their developing years?
Also that: You know for sure a guy is straight if he hangs out with his guy-friends a lot! Oh the conundrums of masculinity.
Oh if only it were that easy….
Ok then. Well, though men are also expected to be “naturally” dashing (minimal effort to maintain his looks), nonetheless woman face much more aesthetic pressure. No competition there really.
Wow “no competition there really”? Didn’t realize there was one going on.
“Wow “no competition there really”? Didn’t realize there was one going on.”
We are debating, what do you think we a really doing?
Violence is gendered male….? I know, of course. Also gendered male: pride, integrity, greater intelligence (and perplexedly being just muscles and no brain) &et cetera, independence and so on…And exactly -men are expected to be violent, to be able to be capable of act of violence, and this ties in with how women are docile and fragile beings. Who not only cannot commit such acts, but their minds cannot stand the rigors of logic and education -beliefs which have shaped the reason why women were kept out of law and medicine for so long. Even now! Just refer back to the comments of Lawrence Summers on women (president at Harvard from 2001, and the happy decline of women getting tenured position from by half to 12%).
Anyways, i hate the gendered expectations of violence men have! There is not room for doubt of that of course….
Hm, well, it means that both mummy and daddy have to teach their son together! Because mummy teaches one thing, and daddy and all their friends does the other, and what do you get? Yes a very team effort thing; but people have more responsibility than others, no?
I think we should probably end our debate, because, this is gone way beyond my initial argument, and it’s turned into a more like:
you dish out the facets of male oppression
i dish out the facets of female oppression
Thank you for being engaging.
We are debating, what do you think we a really doing?
I well to me debate is not the same as competition. Competition implies the goal is winning where debate the goal is common ground.
Violence is gendered male….? I know, of course. Also gendered male: pride, integrity, greater intelligence (and perplexedly being just muscles and no brain) &et cetera, independence and so on…And exactly -men are expected to be violent, to be able to be capable of act of violence, and this ties in with how women are docile and fragile beings. Who not only cannot commit such acts, but their minds cannot stand the rigors of logic and education -beliefs which have shaped the reason why women were kept out of law and medicine for so long. Even now! Just refer back to the comments of Lawrence Summers on women (president at Harvard from 2001, and the happy decline of women getting tenured position from by half to 12%).
Anyways, i hate the gendered expectations of violence men have! There is not room for doubt of that of course….
Excactly.
Hm, well, it means that both mummy and daddy have to teach their son together! Because mummy teaches one thing, and daddy and all their friends does the other, and what do you get? Yes a very team effort thing; but people have more responsibility than others, no?
Agreed. The parents have more responsibility.
I think we should probably end our debate, because, this is gone way beyond my initial argument, and it’s turned into a more like:
you dish out the facets of male oppression
i dish out the facets of female oppression
Thank you for being engaging.
Yes it would seem this exchange is at its best. We both seem to agree there is a lot of messed up stuff harming both genders and men and women both need to do something about it. Fair enough.
And thanks to you as well.
Anyways, well, i am a feminist in my own terms. Feminism is not defined as What Is by the believers who have different interpretations, but by its core tenets. It is like defining Communism by Stalin.
I’m glad you do that.
Personally, i no way deny male oppression or female privilege. And neither do all the feminists i know.
Thank goodness. Because while you and that feminists that don’t deny those things exist, there are plenty who do. I wouldn’t call it a universal truth among feminists but the denial of female privilege is widely accepted enough that its on FinallyFeminism101. And the denial of male oppression (or at least acknowledging it under the condition that it is immediately mentioned that “they do it to themselves” in an effort to absolve women of responsibility for their part in the system) is quite common as well.
Though if you talk to some of them about female privilege, they’ll probably roll eyes at you, because they are talking about something different, and you are making it about something else. Like when someone is talking about female rape, and someone interrupt and says “well females rape men too” (and as in the US, 1 in 6 women get raped and 1 in 33 men – something else entirely is going on with women that is not happening the way it is to men). Women have always often been relegated to a paragraph, and when they want to speak about their rights, other people shoot them down, and i think that’s why lots of feminists may be defensive – as i said, though i shouldn’t make excuses, these may be some reasons why.
Yes those are SOME reasons why as you say. But as can be seen in the recent “I have female privilege” post here there is quite a bit of denial of female privilege.
And if one has a conversation with a feminist and say “what about your female privilege?” what do you think this is doing?
Probabaly about the same ting that happens when a feminist has a conversation with a man and said feminist says, “what about your male privilege?”. But for some reason one is considered insight, “calling out”, “striking a nerve”, etc… and the other is considered whining and denial.
It is no conversation at all when woman speaks about male privilege and men say “what about men” and so when will it ever be about women?
True. But by the same token that says men should not avoid coming to terms with male privilege shouldn’t the same hold true about women? Sure that means that conversations shouldn’t be dreailed but at the same time I think that derailing happens for the express reason that there are feminists that actively deny female privilege, thus prompting people to want to throw it in their faces at every chance, even when the chance isn’t fair.
The longer woman is kept in stasis, so are rigid roles of masculinity for men to be pressured into. Maybe we should take oaths of recognition of privilege before conversation first? Hm.
Sure as long as everyone is taking the oaths and not hypocritically demanding that they are the only ones that should have to take said oaths.
I see. I am sorry that you have encountered unsavory feminists. To be honest, there is no negativity in feminism for me. Feminism is ideology; it is not the radicals, it is not me, even. It is the core of its ideology -which is equality. It is like you have gone fishing in the ocean, but have caught foul fish all the time -but that does not capture the ocean, does it? Anyways, it’s okay, I am not looking for favor.
Fair enough. Not only do I have issue with the negativity itself but I also have issue with the way that even those who are not a part of the negativity themselves are quick to dismiss it and pretend its not there. And while that doesn’t mean the entire ocean is bad again its like that person that caught nothing but bad fish being told that the reason they don’t like that ocean is because they are being naive and have never actually fished it before….despite the fact that they have a history of bad fish from that very ocean that says otherwise.
“Which do you think came first. The stereotyping of black men as violent criminals (or criminals in general) or the prison industry in the US?”
I am sure slavery by white colonial powers came first &etc.
Slavery that came after white colonail powers visited those locations and wrote the men off as savages and the women as displays of biological curiosity (even to the point where some were literally displayed like living museum pieces). In fact part of the rationale behind slavery was that they were “taming the savages”.
Thanks for understanding that. Well, it is not acceptable damage, but really, it does seem like a lot of the pressures men put on themselves comes from the obsession of binary genders! Well, sometimes the truth hurts.
Yeah I’ll agree that men do put those pressures on themselves, as well as the fat that women are putting those pressures on them as well.
Though yeh, it is not acceptable that there be injury (though i don’t know any feminists who says it is???) Woman are trying to reverse damage done to them, it is the fact that the improvement of their welfare is in their best interests.
Actually I shouldn’t have said aceeptable damage. Its not that they find it acceptable, but more like they think its actually not as important as the damage that’s done to women.
At the same time they have taken a lot of damage from being women in man’s quest for masculinity, we must ask ourselves then: is it so unfair for men to bear with it as they seek progress which will ultimately benefit both? Though, yes, it should not be acceptable in ways that no hurt is, but it is. Ultimately, we must also be active and work in co-operation. Don’t we have a role to bear it? Since, don’t men hold much responsibility for the status quo? Anyways, most importantly: it is definitely not the case all the damage men undergo are from undermining women, so i don’t know about others who say so.
Yes I’ll agree that men must to their part. But again let us not act like women have played no role in the damage that’s done to men. And I don’t recall saying that all the damage men take is caused by women.
I would be wary; nonetheless, it is ultimately what does the tree mean to me? Not the rotten apples with worms. I will still cherish the tree and tend to it.
What does the tree mean to me? It means that while that tree has produced bad fruit and I’ll likely never eat from it again I can still respect the existence of the tree and be fair to the people that do eat from it. So by all means cherish the tree and tend to it and eat from it as you wish. I won’t bother you. Well actually from time to time I’ll come visit and might even help you tend it a bit (analgous to my previous mention that I do agree with a lot of the ideas of feminism).
Well it seems you have a lot of feminist frustration. But what will telling me do?
To address the your belief that the reason a person gets frustrated with feminists/feminism is because of naivete, ignorance, or prejudicial hatred.
You give me all these examples of what other feminists say: what am i supposed to do?
Its not that you are supposed to do anything. Its that I hope you can see that there are plenty more reasons that someone could have to be frustrated with feminists/feminism other than what you mentioned.
As you see the difference between feminists, there is no use telling me what you find wrong with feminists as it is not wrong in me. And you are talking to me. What you hold towards feminism seems to be mainly this: feminists. As opposed to Feminism itself.
Ah but the kicker to that is a movement is influenced by the people who take part in it. In fact that’s the same measurement feminists use when talking about MRAs. A lot of them say that they don’t want anything to do with that movement because of how some of it members act don’t they? There are feminists that even go as far as to say that they agree with a lot of what MRAs are saying but don’t want anything to do with the negativity of its members. (Mind you a lot of feminists will then take the negativity of its members and then try to define the entire movement by it, something that they don’t take kindly to when it done to them.) Based on your line of logic why don’t they just go find some fair minded MRAs and see them as “an example of the men’s movement”? (Of course I don’t expect you answer that if those aren’t your feelings about MRAs.)
Why should feminists get to have a differentiation between “the movement” and “its members” when they don’t extend that same courtesy to other members of other movements? I’m sure you do but again, you don’t represent the entire movement.
And anyways; remember my argument which all this come from is:
That this article is not is no illegitimate just because it solely focuses on women.
True but not what I was talking to you about. You had an exchange with commentor “I don’t believe you” on that angle. Yeah early on I did have that feeling and even said so. But that was literally 3-4 months ago and I’ve managed to cool off and lean back a bit.
Sorry, but the truth is that (to men) women are crazy. Maybe men seem equally crazy to women. I don’t know. However, I do not understand women – even women I love like my mom, my sisters, and my wife. maybe crazy is a strong word, but most women:
1. Are sensitive.
2. Are emotional.
3. Are defensive.
4. Overreact.
5. Freak out.
I don’t know how other women perceive that, but to men that is nuts.
Not only was I gaslighted by my husband and others for a long period of time, they tricked me into believing our house was bugged. It stressed the heck out of me. Why are people so cruel?
Holy cow, the comment thread was a better description of gaslighting (and invalidation-bullying) than the article itself! And the article was very well written, in my humble opinion. Which, of course, is valid if I’m a guy who people think is cool, and not valid if I’m a guy who’s “not cool enough”, or if I’m a female… Apparently the validity of a human being’s opinion is not based on experience, point of view, understanding, IQ, or practical knowledge, but only on whether other people think they’re cool or not.
Leslie-
What the hell are you commenting about? I tried to keep up with your comments but kept getting distracted or falling asleep. You are the kind of woman that makes me want to rip my arm off and beat myself to death with it. Call it gaslighting if you want.