Mika Doyle is not a whore (professional or otherwise), but she feels lust—just like every other woman.
In his post “Is Male Lust Turning Us Inside Out?” Tom Matlack explores the possibilities of what would happen if men were truly open about the nature of their lust. But is male lust really such a monster-in-the-closet? Let’s face it; even though not all women understand or accept it, we expect men to go to strip clubs, watch porn, and enjoy commercials featuring busty, scantily clad women. The hard truth—as unfair as it is to men—is that we expect men to be lustful.
We may not fully understand men’s fascination with shaved strippers and porn stars, but we have at least acknowledged and, in some ways, accepted that men feel lust. It’s no longer a question; it’s now a conversation about the nature of their lust. And, for the most part, there isn’t a hard negative feeling associated with male lust—it’s almost a feeling of “it is what it is, so let’s learn how to live with it peaceably.”
Female lust, on the other hand, has not made it to the discussion table just yet. What society does not want to acknowledge is that all women are lustful to the same varying degrees as men are. The difference is that, while we may or may not like the results of male lust, men are expected to feel, display, and act upon their lust to a certain extent. Women are simply the recipients of male lust; our lust is shrouded in shame, guilt, and self-denial.
Women avoid association with the word “lustful” because we do not want to be considered “sluts,” “whores,” “tramps,” “loose girls,” etc. We face the hard sexual dichotomy of the Madonna and the whore, with very little room to explore or deviate from either role. Even if a woman simply admits to having sexual desires, especially outside the realm of a relationship, society’s perception of her changes. Her moral fiber becomes an object of question, and the once positive feelings associated with her become sullied. Joe tells you at the office water cooler that Therese said she’d really like to hook up with the new guy. Do you really see her the same way after that? Chances are something about the way you look at her changes, regardless of your gender. What if Joe says it’s the new guy who wants to hook up with Therese? Do you maybe roll your eyes but not necessarily feel surprised? Do you maybe feel a little sorry for Therese?
That’s certainly an over-simplification of a complex issue, but no matter how far we think we’ve come in terms of gender equality, women are still faced with unfair judgments about our cleanliness and morality based on how we express our lust. The reality is that women are forced to hide our sexual desires to avoid facing negative push-back from society. We live a double-life in which we watch porn, masturbate, have sexual fantasies, and act upon our sexual arousal in one life and deny doing any of it in the other. For those women who choose not to hide their lust, they’re called either a “slut” or they’re called “brave,” sometimes both in the same breath.
The result? We’re still stuck with this erroneous paradigm in which men are horny monsters against which women must defend themselves. Forget the possibility that men do not walk around just barely containing their erections and that women actually do masturbate. Forget that some men lust after their wives and that some women don’t fake headaches to get out of sex. Lust isn’t a male issue, nor is it a female issue. It’s a human issue in which we all struggle with our balance between the lust we feel and the lust we express.
—Photo Babetta Popoff
About Mika Doyle
Yes, feelings about Theresa would change; men in the office would be exposed to that rarest of emotions, a shred of hope. Life as a men is a never-ending quest for that elusive, almost mythical, creature, a woman who likes sex and is willing to pursue it. Men in general would be delighted to see women both embracing and expressing their lust more openly.
Please do, and don’t stand on ceremony.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen plenty of women flirt very openly with guys. Sure they don’t come over to a guy in a bar and grab his crotch (although, I actually have seen that, and it could very well be seen as molesting), but a girl will crowd a guy, laugh too hard, try to sneak a touch in to see if he’s game, etc. I had a male roommate and saw girls go into his room after he made it clear that he just wanted to go to bed. But it was just sex, it was easy, and he didn’t want to embarrass the girl by outright refusing her very strong advances, so he drew the line at a blow job. I had another guy friend who had a good amount of pity sex with women he found ok attractive, but wouldn’t have gone after sexually if they hadn’t been so aggressive. Not to say that he didn’t enjoy it..it’s consensual sex, after all, and he admitted it was often fun..but he certainly wasn’t the one who went after it.
Maybe we come from different worlds. I hate to say…”well, I’ve initiated sex!”…but…I have (and been told I have no self-respect by friends and family because of it, of course). My man still makes fun of me for ‘taking advantage’ of him in his drunken state when we first hooked up. It was consensual, but people find it funny for some reason—and that’s where another real double standard is. He was actually seriously violated in 3 different situations by 3 different women. In one, he was wasted, dragged into a bathroom, and groped by a girl. He was incredibly upset and visibly shaken up afterwards, but his friends didn’t have as much sympathy for him as they would for a woman.
I agree 100% that all contact should be voluntary, and the notion that any man “automatically wanted it” is as ridiculous as ‘she was asking for it’ when applied to women.
I’m glad to hear that you’ve comfortable with initating sex. I wish more women–indeed, more PEOPLE–could say the same.
I’m still not completely comfortable with it all of the time, and like you say, I don’t think most men or women are. I don’t know what makes sexual rejection so much more humiliating than other types of rejection. Most of us do actually give a f*** about what others think, whether we should or not. Most of us have at one point wondered if we were too subtle to be noticed or worried if we were too forward and came off as too desperate or creepy. When you’re shy, and in addition, aware of the cultural views that a woman who goes after men is desperate, slutty, or has no self worth, and that a man who asks a woman out or expresses his sexual desire is creepy, disrespectful, or perverse–it f***s with all of us.
Sigh… it’s a sick culture we live in, all right. What other society puts restrictions on sexual content but gladly displays violence and gore to anyone who can operate a remote (or pay for the movie ticket)?
I think it would be great if women had the freedom to express their lust as openly as men do, but I feel the real restriction isn’t necessarily within themselves but from society. No matter how confident or carefree a woman might feel about how she expresses her lust, that doesn’t change the negative reactions/stigma she will very likely experience, and that’s where I think we really need to start when it comes to evening out the playing field when it comes to lust and sexual expression.
that will never happen because women are bias towards men when true gender equality comes then mean won’t call women whore but when that time come be prepared to by men dinner and buy them gifts can’t have it both way a women is called a whore or good girl because what they bring to the table their body’s work and their conversation men are not because we bring our bodys plus gifts money and security when your dating a man that makes less then you he will not think about your slutty past he’ll be thinking wow this girl isn’t shallow but what do i care i’m a man and i can adapt to any situation when men are called men whores we take it as a compliment cause we are thick skined but women must be mentally weak if they can’t take insults like men can
Girls everywhere and all you emasculated “men” who are trying so hard to be politically correct at the expense of your masculinity, listen up.
Men and women are equals. This does not mean that they are equal in every single thing they do. For example, men are, on average, physically stronger than women. It is much easier for a semi attractive (even a 6/10) woman to go out and get laid. The same cannot be said about men. Men have to work at it, have some skill (game) and thereby get a woman to sleep with them. It is a LOT harder for an equally attractive man to get women than it is the other way around. This is one of reasons behind why we, as a society, naturally celebrate men who are successful in bedding multiple women; while at the same time shame women who bed multiple men.
Let us briefly visit the topic of virginity from both perspectives. Virginity in a man is not a desirable state or label when it comes to an attribute that the opposite sex wants. This is because he has obviously not been preselected by other women. However, female virginity is not looked at negatively in the least by men. If she looks decent, no man cares if the girl is a virgin or not. In fact, a female virgin is often wanted more.
Now don’t get me wrong, men LOVE sluts. We will never turn down an opportunity to sleep with a good looking slut. Partly because she’s good in bed, partly because it’s sex. But any decently intelligent, self-respecting man will know that it is a terrible idea to emotionally involve himself (i.e. date) a slutty girl. That would be a very dumb move. Why would any man want to get emotionally involved with a girl who’s had 15+ sexual partners? We would just be setting ourselves up for failure. There are many nice worthy girls out there who don’t have daddy issues and haven’t slept with an entire fraternity house. But, by all means, fvck the brains out of sluts in the meanwhile.
Most guys can detect when a girl is a slut by the first few dates and by what he hears about the girl from other people and from the girl herlself. We put this information together and figure out if she is dating material or not. If not, I like most guys, will still go in for the prize but have no intention of following through with dating the dirty little tart.
To put it simply, a lock that can be opened by many keys is a useless lock and of little worth. But a key that can open many locks is a master key and is valuable.
Well, for one I thought I was going to be reading something completely different but I’ll comment anyway. I look at lust a different way. There is no lust found in saying you have sexual desires, I think that’s more of a fact and you’re just being honest, that’s not a lustful statement. I think lust is found moreso in an action that dishonors sexual ethics. Lust happens when you abuse yours or someone else’s sexuality. Not just by using your own. Now, what you define as “abuse” differs in everyone’s mind but I think that lusting after a woman (whether she’s a stripper or coworker) while you’re in a committed relationship is wrong because it dishonors the promise you’ve made to another woman. Actually, I think lusting after her in general is wrong because it degrades her from woman to a collection of body parts. You cease to see a person and instead see something that can get you off. This totally applies to women too. While we (for the most part) aren’t as graphically lustful, I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t on tubecrush every once in a while. I don’t endorse the porn industry for any gender in the slightest bit or both genders acting on every sexual arousal they feel. Not because I’m obsessed with women as madonnas, but because I believe in a higher standard of human sexuality.
The devil is in the details. What do you consider “lusting after a woman”? If you mean pursuing sex or engaging in sex with your non-partner, I’d agree that’s wrong if you’re in a committed, closed relationship. When “lusting after” means noticing, looking, and fantasizing, but not actually doing anything—no action—I don’t think anyone is wronged, dishonored, or degraded by it. Lust is a feeling, not an action, so while we probably agree that some kinds of lustful actions are bad, I don’t believe lust itself is a bad thing or that it renders people incapable of caring about more than body parts. In fact, while discussions of male lust tend to focus on body parts, those aren’t the only characteristics capable of being lusted after, by men or women. If I lust after my wife because she is nice to look at, funny, smart, and feels great wrapped around me, have I degraded her from a woman to a collection of body parts, humor, intelligence, and my all-time favorite body part? I lust after the whole package. For women who trigger my lust from afar, I may only appreciate the “body parts” because that’s all I see, but that doesn’t dishonor my wife, and I don’t judge those women to be nothing more than the parts I can see. Lust is a tinted lens, not a blindfold.
As Marcus said, the devil certainly is in the details. Kelsey, I think we simply have different definitions of “lust.” Like Marcus, I don’t see it as a negative in all situations, especially if it is expressed in a way that is consensual and not harmful. I would be interested in hearing more about why you are against the porn industry. Can you go into more detail about the “higher standard” you refer to?
I had posted Tom’s article last week with this precise same sentiment in my comment. Women experience, and to a lesser degree, express lust every bit as much as men. The difference is, we are socialized to “keep the lid on”, whereas men are encouraged on every front to “feel free” to experience and express their sexual impulses. It is men’s sense of entitlement that allows them to do this, and many walk through life entirely oblivious to the fact that the exact same things are occurring in women’s minds. As a result, most men feel that “it’s a guy thing” and are entirely – or at least socially – comfortable with their “harmless perusal” of women. It is only once they come into contact with the equal and opposite force from women that they gain understanding (and often profound discomfort) with what their wives and girlfriends are experiencing internally. Thank you so much for writing this!! Keep up the good work!!!
“he difference is, we are socialized to “keep the lid on”, whereas men are encouraged on every front to “feel free” to experience and express their sexual impulses.”
Men are encouraged to experience and express their sexual impulses? How about some examples of what you mean?
Thanks, Ananda! I’m glad you enjoyed the piece.
At the root of this issue, I think, is that good-ol’ puritanical American idea that sex is bad. For instance, I don’t see a water cooler conversation about who wants to hook up with who being okay at all, unless everyone is very close. A man might get an eye-roll and a woman might get a confused look, which is the virgin/whore dichotomy at work, but I always thought the virgin/whore thing was something I saw portrayed more in the media than in real life. I get depressed that there aren’t any women like me (masturbation-loving, fantasy-having, ‘Studying is more important than sex right now but I won’t say no to both’-thinking virgins) in movies or TV, I know that real life is different. Among close friends, we all talk about sex, but around acquaintances, both male and female, not so much, unless we’re going for shock value (And I’ve been known to mention my masturbation habits around male acquaintances just for shock value. It’s rude, but I feel like I can get away with it because I’m a woman, so I’m not oppressing them with my words. The double standard works in our favor occasionally). Or this may just be a regional or generational issue. I’m 23 years old and from the New York area. What do other people think?
It’s not so much that the puritanical idea that sex is bad, Laura: it’s the Puritanical belief that sex might be productively harnassed until it is no longer a threat to the idealized social order that the Puritans postulate.
Good points, both Thaddeus and Laura. The anti-sex (or pro-repression) theme is depressingly virulent in U.S. culture.
I tend to associate puritanism with the idea that if something is morally wrong then it must be banned or at the very least attacked everywhere it could appear. You can’t allow anything that could lead to shameful behavior. (Like the joke about Southern Baptists not allowing people to have sex standing up because it might lead to dancing.) I think of puritanism as being very internalized as well – it’s the motives or thoughts you have when doing something that are to be morally judged, not just the action. If you do something acceptable but do it for the wrong reason, then you are impure. If you think sinful thoughts, then you need to “get your mind right.” In this way, I see some similarities between the way that some religious conservatives and some feminists judge pornography – “shame on you for thinking those bad thoughts!”
I do think we are still experiencing some “leftovers” of the Puritan belief system, but I think we also face strong influences from other Christian faiths that reject sexual openness in general, especially for women. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you rarely see men wearing the equivalent of a “promise” or “purity” ring, even if they are of a strong Christian faith, but there are special ceremonies in which girls make promises to their fathers to stay virgins until they are married. Women are held to a much higher standard when it comes to their virginity and sexuality.
That whole ritualistic “marry your father” ceremony thing is creepy as hell to me. It’s as if Daddy “owns” the girl’s sexuality until her husband comes to claim it.
Erch.
And these are the people who get into a tither about even the slightest suggestion of what they consider to be kiddie porn, mind you…. :/
I’ve always been a little creeped out by the concept as well. It’s as if they are saying women do not have the ability to make their own sexual choices, so daddy will do it for them until a “good” man comes along to take over the task.
Yes, and there are young women all over the Bible Belt today who have decided to “save themselves” for marriage but have essentially defined chastity to mean “no vaginal intercourse before marriage.” They are treating oral and anal sex like it doesn’t count as sex, so they don’t think about any STI precautions, not that they have much access to good information about STI’s in the first place. There’s been a spike in STI’s among people who are by their definition “virgins.” That’s what happens when you have repression, an emphasis on virginity, and sexual ignorance all rolled into one.
Laura,
I’m in my late 30s and live on the West Coast. I am very open with my sex-positive friends (no matter their gender) about my fantasies, masturbation habits, and sexual adventures. I don’t mention sex or much about my personal life at all while at work. Unless I know I am in a sex-positive crowd, I don’t talk about sex with acquaintances.
The male friends and lovers I have are sometimes surprised by the level of my sex drive and the frequency of my sexual thoughts (yes, I am pretty open about them). My openness sometimes make them more conscious of how much they also admire/objectify women in their midst.
Ha! This reminds me of a time I went to a hot spring resort with a lover. One evening, I was sitting in one of the pools with him and had a glazed look in my eyes. We had spent the afternoon in our cabin having sex (Mmmm, the memories!). Astonished, he asked me if I was fantasizing about having sex with him again already and could I please stop because he needed a break. I turned to him and laughed. I told him to get over himself, I was fantasizing about having sex with the woman on the other side of the soaking pool.
I admire my sex-positive friends, male or female. I admire how they can talk about sex freely, complain about it, or laugh about it.
I don’t care for folks who are unskillful with their sexuality- male or female.
I don’t like it if someone uses someone in sexual manner, treating them as if they’re only a piece of meat.
I knew a guy who was bisexual, polyamorous, etc. It was all good to him. I asked him once if he had any boundaries. His reply? “Safe, sane, and consensual.”
If you think about his reply, it really does cover all bases.
This is the litmus test when I think about sexuality,mine or others, now.
Y’all take it easy.
I just love this post! Binary thinking limits all of us.
Thank you, Julie.
Times have changed. Lustful women are so popular these days, among men that is.
Other women still absolutely hate it and slut shame each other because it lowers their own market value.
That’s an interesting take. Do you think men respect these “lustful women” just as much as the women who are “slut-shaming” them, or do they view them as objects of sexual gratification (i.e. the objects of their own lust)? I’d like to know how men view them in comparison to “non-lustful” women.
There was a study by David Buss that found across cultures that slut shaming and control of female sexuality stems from female survival and reproductive strategy, there was very little evidence found that this comes from men.
Hi, Ron – I’ll have to look up Buss’ study. Sounds interesting.
Mika,
I can only answer for myself. I certainly respect “lustful women” more than the one’s slut-shaming them. A woman engaging in slut-shaming makes me respect her less. The same of course goes for men sengaging in lut-shaming.
I will however say that “lustful women” does make me wary as I’ve encountered several of them who at the same time buys into the idea that men always want sex. That is a dangerous combination.
Hi, Tamen – I think your response really illustrates how complex this issue really is. Maybe we respect slut-shaming less than being “lustful,” but being “lustful” still isn’t seen very positively. You also make a good point that a part of the problem is the erroneous belief that men just want sex. We definitely need to get away from that if we’re going to make any progress.
As a slut, my experience with men has been far more positive than with women. Sometimes I encounter men who don’t respect me but it’s not that often. I have a few girlfriends I can be completely honest with but sometimes even they don’t understand me. With a lot of women, I have to be careful or the slut-shaming and jealousy comes out.
My best friends for years now have been men. They respect me, understand the choices I have made, and the price I have paid to be myself.
Hi, Jeni – Just curious—how do you define “slut”? I’ve encountered many different definitions of “slut” and “promiscuous” over the last few months and am interested to hear your take.
I am a promiscuous woman. By the standards of many people I am indiscriminate in who I choose to have sex with. I don’t have to love or be in a relationship with someone to have sex with him or her. Under certain circumstances, like at a sex party, I don’t need to know the person’s name to have sex with him or her. All I require in those cases is arousal and condoms.
The truth is, I am discriminating in who I have sex with but not in the conventional way. Also, I am not monogamous in my relationships.
Thanks for clarifying, Jeni. I think that really gives your comment more context.
That is an interesting issue . I think men definitely likr “slutty” women to the extent those women provide opportunities for sex. But do men value those women beyond a sexual fling? As a woman, I’m usually looking for someone who will have an ongoing role in my life. That may not be an exlusive LTR, but I’d like to think this is a man who cares about me, who is interested in getting to know me, who will be supportive if something bad happens to me, etc. (I’m not saying all women want that, but I do.) I have had casual hookups and I find that those guys may be interested in seeing me again for more sex, but not much else. I have not felt particularly cared for or respected in that kind of encounter (maybe others have had different experiences but after my 20′s, I lost interest in hookups — it’s just not that fun for me)
I think women sometimes have a visceral negative reaction to other women who are “slutty” because of the practical issues that (a) if she’s sleeping with all the guys then the guys won’t be interested in me unless I do likewise ( which I may not want to do) and (b) she may be the type of woman who likes to steal other women’s biyfriends just for the hell of it.
*boyfriends. Sry for typos!
oh, one other issue that I think leads to female-female slut-shaming is guilt by association. If a woman’s best friend is a slut then guys will think she is a slut too. Women often believe that being labelled a “slut” will ruin their chances of finding a decent guy who wants a relationship (and unfortunately there is some truth to that fear.) Therefore, a “slutty” woman may be ostracized. Other women may be very secretive about any casual encounters they have, not even telling close friends (this may be changing with the millenial generation being more open about casual sex but it was very true when I was in college in the 1980′s)
Speaking of a woman poaching another woman’s man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaOUnwfD1dQ
Is there something inherently wrong with wanting to be seen as valuable? I’d like to think that a man views my sexuality (if I choose to share it with him) as something that’s valuable, as in, something that has worth, rather than him seeing me as the equivakent if a piece of furniture he picked up at the flea market, or whatever. I’m not talking about money or insisting that men spend money to get women, but by value I mean something that is worth putting in some time or effort to achieve. This concept of “market value” seems to be thrown around a lot as a way of denigrating women for wanting to maybe have relationships as opposed to just sleeping around with every guy who walks by.
Most people’s mindset on male lust is ‘guilty until proven innocent’.
Why should i suffer because some man yelled at you from across the street, or a man you had sex with stortly after meeting dissappeared on you.
I damn sure ain’t taking responsiblity in helping change those men in any way either.
Hi, William – It is sad that certain men exacerbate the “guilty until proven innocent” mindset. I can understand your unwillingness to take responsibility for others’ actions, but what can men do personally to affect positive change?
Hi, William – It is sad that certain men exacerbate the “guilty until proven innocent” mindset. I can understand your unwillingness to take responsibility for others’ actions, but what can men do personally to affect positive change?
We can support open and honest expressions of female sexuality and yes, even lust (where appropriate to the setting, of course–probably NOT at the office) by treating it exactly the same way we do male expressions of sexuality–with positive reiniforcement and eager agreement.
Now, it’s women’s turn–what are THEY doing to become more sex-positive and support women’s expressions of desire, rather than shaming each other?
It’s not just men’s responsibility, you know.
Copyleft — I agree; it’s definitely not just men’s responsibility. I had only mentioned men because William (above) said he was unwilling to take responsibility for other men’s behavior. For women, I think it starts with open dialogue like this. We have to be willing to admit to our own lust and also be willing to talk about it in an open forum. I think awareness and dialogue are the first steps. What do you think?
Dialogue is good, but for women to alter other women’s behavior requires dialogue on women’s sites too–specifically gender-feminist sites that regularly police and condemn other women’s behavior on the basis of whether it violates the orthodoxy’s rules.
Agreed. I certainly wouldn’t limit dialogue to just this site. While it’s a fantastic forum, the dialogue needs to spread as widely as possible.
Actually there are many fantastic sex-positive conversations happening in feminist circles. SlutWalks, “The Purity Myth,” Bust and Bitch magazines, and many, many more. Sex-negative feminism is largely outdated.
I’m really glad for the ‘male lust’ theme that has been going on for the past week or two. From my female perspective, male lust hasn’t been as policed as mine, but this site has taught me that it does happen to both sexes, and to see it from a very different perspective than mine.
Here’s mine: I’ve been around guys who have been very open about their lust. From the mundane—“this actress is hot and she shows her breasts in this movie.” To the anecdotal—“I came to this girl’s house with a pizza and she gave me a blow job.” To situations bordering on uncomfortable—like watching porn with one of my guy friends and having him scrutinize the vaginas on the women for every little flaw. Yet, when I talked about my own fantasies or experiences: The guys I slept with were clearly using me. The guys I found attractive were clearly assholes, pussies, or gay. My fantasies were cheap. I wouldn’t dare say that a girl a guy found attractive was not in my taste, because I’m automatically a jealous bitch. And as for their fantasies and experiences (some bordering on date rape)…boys will be boys.
Sure, when you’re around a guy majority, you can expect that. Yet, it hasn’t been any better when around women. “Oh honey, you’re so beautiful, you don’t NEED to prove yourself by sleeping with him.” What…? Or the more crass ones: “something about cum buckets.” Yep, that’s what women who enjoy sex are. Or the motherly advice: “No one will see you as marriage material if you dress like that or dare have sexual encounters that don’t end in very long term relationships.” Marriage was never on my mind, and I have no desire for children, and I’ve had very healthy relationships and friendships with guys to whom I can talk about desires, even ones with whom I had sex early. Yeah, I have insecurities, but I deal with them by…whining and talking about my insecurities, just like most of this generation does. I have sex because it feels good, I’m attracted to a guy/girl, or it makes me happy to give someone I care about pleasure.
I think that any informed feminist knows that slut-shaming (creep-shaming for guys?) comes from all genders, and we all need to work on accepting other people’s sexualities without going out of our way to make people feel uncomfortable with our own. Don’t judge people who are into things like polyamory, one night stands, or BDSM, but you don’t need to talk about the smell of your lover’s vagina or mention how you’ve been masturbating to a certain hunk of man meat in a group that might not feel comfortable with it.
Aya,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your story. I’m really glad this is being discussed as well. It’s been eye-opening for me on a lot of levels. You expressed very well something I was trying to say, but I don’t think I said it very clearly or very well: even though women (like yourself) are very open about their sexual experiences and may not feel ashamed, society still “slut shames” them or spins what they feel are positive sexual experiences into negatives. You mentioned a complete disinterest in children and marriage, and I can definitely relate. While I have always wanted to get married, I have NEVER wanted children, and that’s been hard for people to understand. I almost always end up having to walk away from someone trying to argue with me that it WILL happen someday. Sorry, no, it won’t. Not everyone wants the same things as everyone else, and, as you said, that also applies to quantity and types of sexual encounters.
I agree about the false dichotomy between “whore” and “virgin.” It’s pretty ridiculous as a way to see the world.
This is no defense of the dichotomy, but: who says that it’s strictly an either/or thing? There are ways in which our society plays on both these extremes at the same time — sexy nun costumes for Halloween come to mind. Perhaps it’s more accurate to say our culture sees it as “and/or” and not just “or”….
I have never believed life is completely black and white, but I think the “and/or” situations like the sexy nun aren’t necessarily the accepted norm. They’re Halloween costumes because they are outside of the norm—we dress up in our fantasies on Halloween, and one of our fantasies is the pure woman who gives into her sexual impulses. It’s sad that that’s even a fantasy because it really does exacerbate the issues we’ve been discussing here.
I certainly agree with your conclusion here and thank you for a thoughtful response.
I wasn’t trying to say that what we see of male lust is the truth. It is a twisted version of the truth hidden by shame and duplicity. Turns out that is probably true of women too. We are more alike than we know.
Thanks again.
I know, you absolutely weren’t, and I really love that the subject has been discussed. Too much of previous discussion (and discussion on other sites) has come from bitter (often justifiably so) places and involved people trying to out-victim each other.
Here was a discourse from another article that made a lot of sense to me. It was on discussing male lust versus female lust. I was initially under the impression that female lust was more demonized, but Copyleft made a really good point that a lot of men who demonized female lust have had to go through their own desires being put down for a long time. The back and forth is not good for any of us, but it’s not surprising that it happens:
Me: “Sure, but then why do so many men on here complain that women only get turned on by jerks? It’s not true–I’ve been attracted to guys on on the entirety of the nice guy-jerk spectrum, and it’s not as black and white as it seems to be to a lot of ‘nice’ guys. Still–if it’s OK that men are just attracted to certain traits, can’t we also then let women be attracted to the guys they just find sexy and make them wet? Why do so many men on here try to justify not being attractive to women by demonizing and stereotyping women’s sexual tastes, while writing off what makes them hard to just being red-blooded men?”
Copyleft:
“I agree that such an attitude is one-sided an unfair. But I also note that many such men have lived their whole lives on the short end of such a stick, constantly being told that women’s standards and expectations ARE reasonable while their own proclivities are demonized and dismissed.
Turnabout may not be productive in the long term, but it’s also not an unexpected reaction”
Thanks for listening, Tom. I stress again that simple turnabout is NOT productive–but it’s also not surprising.
Aya:
I would also say that men are much more easily understood. The simple fact is: men are simple creatures compared to women.
In that vein: men where their libido on their sleeve. (I don’t know how old you are, but) picture Lenny & Squiggy openly lusting after laverne & shirley in the opening sequence where they are biting their hands.
Imagine men were a little less easily read. Imagine also that all of the dating help available to women told women that men don’t like women who shave, wear makeup, dress in skirts. Imagine these hundreds of dating advice sources said that men like women who were good cooks, amiable, etc..
As you followed all this advice & didn’t shave your legs or wear makeup or try to make yourself pretty and kept losing out companions to those girls who did those things, wouldn’t you feel pretty mad that you had been sold a false bill of goods? Wouldn’t you feel mad that you wasted years using the wrong tactics when you realized that LOOKS were the #1 attraction marker for men?
This is what has been done to men. For the past 30 years almost all dating advice for men has been telling men women want hard-working, amiable, respectful men.
Now these men are learning this is a boatload of bullsh1t as guys who are far less accomplished and by most objective measures are just worse human beings are walking off with the lions share of female companionship.
If all men simply knew about sh1t-tests I think 1000′s of marriages could be saved.
A lot of men are beginning to turn to PUA, because they are the only group that are honestly talking about women as sexual creatures who make stupid decisions based solely on libido just as men do.
A lot of people have problems with PUA, but I tend to see them as incredibly crass and have an incredibly mercenary attitude when it comes to sex & relationships, but they are the only group of men that are having an honest discussion of female sexuality as it pertains to men.
I appreciate the opportunity to join the discussion, Tom. Your piece really got me thinking, and it was great to be able to respond to it from “the other side” of the story. Thanks again.
I don’t know what is it about society and not wanting it’s people to grew up. I don’t know what it is about people that make them stupid enough to believe in ridiculous stereo types. All I know is that this sort of thing needs to die in a fire. This whole mentality of “if a woman has had many partners she’s a slut, but if a man has had a lot of partners then he’s a stud.” needs to go out the window.
Agreed, wholeheartedly. As a wise man once said, “What the world needs most is a lot less fighting and a lot more fucking.”
Agreed, Demohidu, agreed.
I know there have been some comments here that men love women who love sex, but this has not really been my experience. I am a single woman who is obsessed with sex, but I have a problem with men losing interest in having sex with me. This is despite having been told numerous times by different men that I am good in bed.
Here are some of my theories as to why I seem to encounter this problem often:
- I scare them off because I like sex more than they do
- I’m too easy and they’ve got me wrapped around their little finger so they get bored really quickly because they don’t have to earn it / work for it / it’s not a challenge / there’s no thrill of the chase and then they feel like “okay, been there, done that”
– Men aren’t actually as obsessed with sex as they like everyone to think they are, so they’re mostly all talk and no action
- They find my love of sex / confidence / sexual liberation emasculating somehow
– They feel like they can’t seduce me, because I’m already seduced, so then they don’t feel like they’ve achieved anything that panders their ego
- They find my upfront attitude unusual and don’t know what to make of it
– Instinctually and / or from the traditional Christian culture, the misogynist attitude of “women shouldn’t enjoy sex” hasn’t quite dissipated yet, despite it no longer being relevant
– They are too insecure to handle a sexually confident woman
Unfortunately, I find the vast majority of men (and most women) to be quite unattractive and although I have plenty of sex toys and enjoy watching pornography, I find masturbation in general to be quite boring, and usually after orgasming I end up feeling more frustrated because I haven’t had intercourse with a real person…
Anyway, I just wanted to say that I think most men don’t actually want a sexually liberated woman, they just like to think (and have everyone else think) that they do. Very frustrating for me!
Hey Hilda,
I would agree that most likely the men are probably turned off by a woman who wants sex more than them. If this is happening to you on a regular basis (as in MOST MEN have lower libido’s than you) AND this has happened to a significant number of partnerships than I would say you are an EXTREME STATISTICAL OUTLIER for women’s libido.
I am not making judgements, but telling you how rare it is.
I don’t know your age, but you have to keep in mind that male erections are tied to a number of body systems. This is one of the reasons why I don’t particularly like the idea of viagra. If a man has ED, it’s probably a sign of much more important health issues and he should change his life-style.
Women have no such brakes on their sex function. It is EASY for any woman to show up men in the sack (if she is so inclined), with the exception of maybe men under the age of 25 or so. Any woman could f*ck a man under the table, but the vast majority don’t have the same libidos.
This will only get more pronounced at later ages.
I also don’t think there is anything wrong or funny about men quitting a relationship with some1 who has a higher libido than them. Women do this all the time and they are well within their rights to do so. If people are not a good match, then why maintain the relationship?
I wouldn’t say so much that men are all bark and no bite as much as these particular men may have different ideas of what “a lot of sex” is compared to you. So, if they told you they like sex “a lot” or have “high” libido’s, that definition can be very subjective.
Some women may think “a lot” is 3 times a week. Some men may think “a lot” is once a day. Some women or men may think “a lot” is 4 times a day.
When me & my wife were dating I ran into this a lot with food. Sometimes she would ask me to go get her a serving of food while I was up or I would ask her, or I would be stopping at a restaurant on the way home or she would. I found out my idea of “a lot” or “a little” differed greatly over hers.
John D: I don’t think my sex drive is abnormal as such; I would ideally like to have sex daily or once every few days, but as long as I were to get it weekly, I wouldn’t complain too much. So I doubt that most men would have lower libidos than I do. Also, when I speak of men losing interest in sex with me, I am referring to sex outside of any form of committed relationship. I am 26 years old and all the men I have slept with have been in their late teens or 20s.
I agree that women are way more complicated than men. And as if men weren’t difficult enough! I am so glad I am female, or I would NEVER get laid!
Wow, thank you for mentioning PUA; I had never heard of it before! I just really wish there was PUA for females! I found a few female PUA blogs, but they’re all dead…
This shit is GOLD!
Women complain about how unfair it is that men are called studs when they sleep around, yet women get called sluts for the exact same behavior. It’s actually not a double standard though, because both scenarios are pretty different in terms of circumstances and consequences. I can think of at least four crucial differences:
First, sleeping around is easier for women. Regardless of how you feel about promiscuity, we can all agree that a guy who manages to rack up a lot of sexual partners has to have some skills. It’s challenging for men to rack up partners, even for men with low standards. A man needs social intelligence, interpersonal skills, persistence, thick skin, and plain old dumb luck. For women, though, a vagina and a pulse is often enough. Whenever an accomplishment requires absolutely no challenge, no one respects it. It’s just viewed as a lack of self-discipline. People respect those who accomplish challenging feats, while they consider those who overindulge in easily obtained feats as weak, untrustworthy or flawed.
Second, women have potential to do more harm by sleeping around than men do. Say a man sleeps around with a bunch of different women. He’s definitely doing harm to these women if he pretends to be monogamous while sleeping around. He may cause them emotional pain by his promiscuity. He may cause unwanted pregnancy. He may spread VD. When women sleep around, however, they can cause not only all these same ill effects but one additional crucial ill effect: the risk of unknown parentage.
If one guy sleeps around with five women, each of whom is monogamous to him, and they all get pregnant, it’s a safe bet as to who the father is. If you reverse genders and have one woman who sleeps around with five men who are monogamous to her, and she gets pregnant, the father could be any of the five men. And if one of those men is tricked into raising a baby that isn’t his, he’s investing time, money, estate and property to provide for a child that isn’t carrying his DNA into the next generations, a costly mistake from an evolutionary standpoint.
Our two basic primal drives are to survive and to reproduce, and promiscuous women traditionally make it hard for a man to know for sure whether he is truly reproducing or is secretly raising another man’s child. Men stand a lot more to lose from promiscuous women than the other way around. And it’s no picnic for the child to not know who his real father is either. And it’s a mess for the women carrying on the deception as well. Or just look at any random episode of the Maury show if you don’t believe me.
Since the DNA test and the birth control pill didn’t exist until recently, there were no reliable ways to prevent pregnancy or prove parentage for most of human history. For this reason society developed a vested interest in preventing promiscuity among women, and society accomplished this by creating the slut stigma. And even though the creation of birth control and DNA tests have made this less of a risk than the past, longstanding traditions and customs are not easy for society to break so the slut stigma remains.
Third, men have evolutionary reasons to be programmed to sleep around more. A lot of women roll their eyes when they hear that men are “hard-wired” to sleep around. But from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes total sense. If the two primal drives of humans are to survive and to reproduce, nothing leads to maximum reproduction like one man sleeping with multiple women. If one women sleeps with many men in a nine month period, she can only get pregnant just once. Nine months of rampant promiscuity would give the same result as nine months of highly sexed monogamy: one pregnancy. Now if one man sleeps with many women during a nine month period, you can get many pregnancies during that period. The more women he sleeps with, the more possible pregnancies.
So from an evolutionary standpoint, there are concrete advantages to men being promiscuous compared to women being promiscuous. This doesn’t mean that women have evolved to be strictly monogamous. Women have evolved to be somewhat promiscuous too, something men badly underestimate. However they haven’t evolved to be as rampantly promiscuous as men.
Fourth, promiscuity poses more risk to women than to men. A woman has more to lose from choosing bad sex partners than a man does. She’s the one who gets stuck with going through a pregnancy and taking care of a baby alone if she chooses a deadbeat. For this reason, promiscuous women throughout history have historically been viewed as being a vastly more irresponsible risk takers than promiscuous men, who rightly or wrongly could always run away from the consequences of unwanted pregnancies easier than women could.
These four reasons explain why the longstanding tradition came about of men being rewarded for multiple partners while women get socially punished for similar promiscuity. Of course all this is gradually changing, but we’re up against millenia of evolutionary and cultural conditioning here, so don’t expect any dramatic overnight reversals.
Understand that I’m just explaining why the double standard came into existence and not condoning or condemning it. This is not an attempt to pass judgment or be self-righteous in any way. It’s just an explanation of why the two conditions are treated differently.
Brody, I strongly object to your comment (which now seems to have been deleted) that sluts are worthless and have “daddy issues”. I don’t know where you would get that from and unless you can provide us with solid evidence of this, I think we can all consider that to be completely untrue.
The four points you make in your second post (which hasn’t been deleted) provide excellent explanations for why the double standard exists, but your first post made it perfectly clear that you do condone the double standard.
Men and women are equals. This does not mean that they are equal in every single thing they do. For example, men are, on average, physically stronger than women. It is much easier for a semi attractive (even a 6/10) woman to go out and get laid. The same cannot be said about men. Men have to work at it, have some skill (game) and thereby get a woman to sleep with them. It is a LOT harder for an equally attractive man to get women than it is the other way around. This is one of reasons behind why we, as a society, naturally celebrate men who are successful in bedding multiple women; while at the same time shame women who bed multiple men.
Let us briefly visit the topic of virginity from both perspectives. Virginity in a man is not a desirable state or label when it comes to an attribute that the opposite sex wants. This is because he has obviously not been preselected by other women. However, female virginity is not looked at negatively in the least by men. If she looks decent, no man cares if the girl is a virgin or not. In fact, a female virgin is often wanted more.
Now don’t get me wrong, men LOVE sluts. We will never turn down an opportunity to sleep with a good looking slut. Partly because she’s good in bed, partly because it’s sex. But any decently intelligent, self-respecting man will know that it is a terrible idea to emotionally involve himself (i.e. date) a slutty girl. That would be a very dumb move. Why would any man want to get emotionally involved with a girl who’s had 15+ sexual partners? We would just be setting ourselves up for failure. There are many nice worthy girls out there who don’t have daddy issues and haven’t slept with an entire fraternity house. But, by all means, fvck the brains out of sluts in the meanwhile.
Most guys can detect when a girl is a slut by the first few dates and by what he hears about the girl from other people and from the girl herlself. We put this information together and figure out if she is dating material or not. If not, I like most guys, will still go in for the prize but have no intention of following through with dating the dirty little tart.
To put it simply, a lock that can be opened by many keys is a useless lock and of little worth. But a key that can open many locks is a master key and is valuable.