Nikki Brown challenges us to think differently about birth control being a “women’s issue”.
There’s been some talk over, what, the last couple months, regarding ladies and their access to birth control. Or basic health care. Or abortions. Or breast exams. Really, pick any of them. Now, while I could (quite easily) get going regarding Komen’s debacle with Planned Parenthood or the #issacircus of a hearing that ruined my day, that’s not what I’d really like to discuss with Good Men today.
Of course, some of you might tell me that you don’t want to hear my rants because, hey, those be lady problems and why would you rant to men about them (*please note* I did not say all of you – just… some).
And that, now that you mention it, is exactly my point.
All of these controversies, from Komen to birth control, have been overwhelmingly framed in this way: religious/moral freedom vs. women’s rights. Or something along those lines. Here, the details aren’t what’s important –the point is the vs. women part.
X, Y, Z vs. women. Period. Just us ladies, out there all on our own. Wantin’ things like breast exams and the pills. It’s a woman’s-issues thing, right?
Ahem. Wrong.
I am so done with these arguments being framed this way. These are not women’s-only issues and rights. These are far far more than that.
Why? Well, since you asked, let me try to explain.
First, let’s just pretend we’re talking about birth control – namely, birth control pills, or maybe even morning after pills. For sake of simplicity, let’s also narrow that into birth control only used for avoiding pregnancy – the idea that ladies be only wanting the birth control so they can be having the sex without the procreating. Forget all other arguments. For now.
I find it rather interesting that no one seems to bring up with whom all those ladies be having all the sex without the babies with. Well. Lesbians don’t really worry about getting preggers all that much. So that leaves… menfolk, or ladies born as men. And, ya know, I would hazard a guess that a great majority of that sex involving penses would be within committed, monogamous relationships. I would also hazard a guess that, in those committed, monogamous relationships, part of the reason the lady be on the pill is because she is not using condoms with her partner. Why? Because she probably trusts him and they no longer have need to worry about STIs, being in a committed, monogamous relationship. And a lot of people don’t really like the whole condom thing, and will avoid when it becomes safe to do so.
Some of those relationships are probably marriages, where both would like to avoid having a kid/having more kids. Both husband and wife are being responsible to what they want and the children they can provide for.
Sure, some of the ladies who be on the pill are probably not in committed, monogamous relationships. Maybe a few of them throw caution to the wind every night. Or something. But, you know, if pregnancy is on the line, they’re still engaging le sexy times with a dude. A dude who probably as into getting someone pregnant as his ladyfriend is.
Am I getting my point across? All these “X, Y, Z vs. ladies rights” conversations keep kind of saying that it’s only the ladies having sex without the babiez. All by themselves. When, um, hello. Hi there. Birds and bees calling.
Yes, the women are the ones who have to take a pill as a very consistent method of engaging le sexy times without le bébéz. Men don’t have that option (yet). But that doesn’t mean these aren’t men’s issues. If you want to be having sex without procreation, this is how you do that – men and women. Both of us. Together. Doing this deed. Together. Does it matter who is swallowing (ahem) the pill?
Moreover, yeah, we can also talk about the fact that women take birth control for more than just freaking sex. For crying out loud. It is a way to deal with many basic health issues. Take me, for example. I have periods that are out of control. It’s genetic – my mom and aunt are the same.
I pass out from my periods. When I was 14, I passed out and threw up due to the intensity of my periods. My mom put me on birth control after this (and way before I was sexually active) so I could freaking function. It worked – and I don’t have another option. A few years ago, I was in a relationship with a woman so I decided to get off the pill (again – not really worried about the pregnancy thing). Two months later, cue me facedown on the bathroom floor.
I live by myself. I drive a car and ride a bike in traffic. I cannot be passing out from my periods every time I get them. I have a very busy, full life. I cannot spend three to four days in bed on heating pads and prescription ibuprofen once a month. And I’m not the only person who requires the pill to treat non-sexual concerns.
Moreover, it’s not just self-identified women who need access to birth control and these basic health needs. Constructing the argument as if it’s just women who, say, use Planned Parenthood marginalizes those who do not identify as female, but may still have those needs.
In addition, it’s not just women and FTM peeps we’re talking about here. What, men don’t want affordable and available health care? They don’t have sexual health needs? They aren’t involved in family planning?
Since when?
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Photo courtesy of brains the head
Ok, if you need birth control as medicine, then yes, health insurance should cover it like any other medicine, religious beliefs of your employer notwithstanding.
If you want it because you don’t like condoms… thats not really medicine, its a luxury. If a couple want to ditch condoms and start using the pill instead then they should put their heads together and ask if they can afford it. If the answer is no then why should someone else have to pay for it?
The barrier method is one of the safest out there, its not like people don’t have options.
Exactly. If this really was about those that needed it to address a problem, the argument wouldn’t be about providing for all women.
I agree with underlying argument, and I personally almost always use condoms AND bcps. That said. A lot of people don’t like using condoms – I hear it from men AND women – so most couples who choose to rely on bcps make that decision consciously and because of this dislike. Relying on another form of contraception is the better option. However, I am actually *not* arguing that the government pay for my bcps. I understand how we got over into that conversation, but that wasn’t my point. My point is that ANY conversations about contraception and the like should… Read more »
“I agree with underlying argument, and I personally almost always use condoms AND bcps.” Good call, its probably the best combination of BC out there “That said. A lot of people don’t like using condoms – I hear it from men AND women – so most couples who choose to rely on bcps make that decision consciously and because of this dislike. Relying on another form of contraception is the better option.” And some are allergic to them and have to buy expensive non-latex ones. Incidentally I’m one of the condom haters: I actually find it difficult to go all… Read more »
Nikki,
I think you make excellent and important points about these issues. But please, for the love of the English language, use better grammar. It’s killing me.
I’m sorry. I hate to be that asshole that’s uptight about the bad grammar, diction, and spelling, but I’m a writer too and it just bugs the shit out of me. I was raised by an English teacher, it’s almost physically painful when I see stuff like that. Thank you!
well i see nothing wrong with nikki’s writing style. it was clear, engaging and personable – her voice, her cadence.
better to be personable, than plain and professional. i find unadorned language unadorned dull. a bit of colour, a bit of flash keeps the audience’s eyes trained
Thanks jameseq – and Sarah your points are valid, but clearly I was not using proper grammar in a lot of this post. I agree that it was a bit much, actually. However, I was trying to funny, or to convey how I actually speak about these things. As jameseq points out, IMHO blogging can be more, or at least equally, about voice than about being correct.
I don’t think that the issue is completely either/or, but somewhere in the middle. Women can get pregnant and men can’t. Once pregnant, a woman has the right to decide whether or not to try to carry the baby to term, and at that point the man’s right to decide whether or not to be a parent is all in her hands. She has reproductive rights before and during pregnancy, while he only has reproductive rights before pregnancy. So, men and women are involved, but women carry a little more of the burden, the risk, and the rights, so it’s… Read more »
Yeah, you’d think because the point at which men hold the most reproductive rights is before pregnancy, he would want the maximum possible access to birth control for his current/future partner(s). Seeing as most women aren’t crazy, and most women are not trying to steal sperm to make babies then charge you for the rest of your life, it seems like two reasonable adults should be able to come to terms that they both have a steak in birth control. Due to biological reasons, birth control is mostly hinged on women, but that doesn’t mean that men are just these… Read more »
“Yeah, you’d think because the point at which men hold the most reproductive rights is before pregnancy, he would want the maximum possible access to birth control for his current/future partner(s)” That doesn’t help his reproductive rights any though. Her having discounted or free birth control doesn’t mean she’s going to use, doesn’t mean he’s any more aware of whether she’s using it or doesn’t make him any more protected from someone who wish’s to deceive him to get pregnant. This “right” does nothing for men. But it does give women even more reproductive rights and privileges than they already… Read more »
7% of fertile women who are not intending pregnancy between 15-44 are not using contraception. Your chances of having sex, if you are sexually active, with a women and having contraception involved is VERY high. Sure, having a greater accessibility for everyone, regardless of their workplace and economic access, doesn’t guarantee that she is going to use birth control, but we do know that taking and continuing birth control is very closely related to the cost and availability. I am saying that having partners that have access to birth control (not hinging on economic status or religious workplace) would increase… Read more »
Your second paragraph kinda sounds like it’s invalidating the first. Despite having free access to condoms, people still don’t use them, sometimes even including yourself. So what makes you think that 7% who don’t use contraception (any? including the free condoms already available to them? or if you mean the pill specifically, is it not true that these are the woman to whom the pill has extreme or even dangerous side effects for, meaning even if free, they would not use them?) will suddenly start just because it’s free? And the fact is, even if a few of those 7%… Read more »
So you still would rather your insurance premiums to go to higher rates of abortion and births ($7,000 for uncomplicated vaginal, and a majority of births have complications) than the chance that approximately 20% of women take it exclusively for birth control purposes? The other 80% use it to control cycles, PMS, acne, PCOS, endometrisis etc. so sounds like a lot of very expensive doctors visits. Whole lot of effort to slightly restrict access of birth control to 20% of some women whose employers don’t want to cover it. I think everyone has the right to have STD and pregnancy… Read more »
Also saying that men shouldn’t treated like skirt chasing cave man and then saying that most women are on the pill so they can “fuck all they want”, really does make me not really care what you say. Most women aren’t on the pill so they can fuck all they want, and most guys would rather have sex with girls on the pill. That is what I was saying that it would be in all sexually active mens interest to allow full access to contraception. Treating paying for birth control like it is some slippery slope into all-expenses-paid vacations, then… Read more »
Jenna – again, agree. And I apologize for not having time to get through all the comments. I do want to make this point again: A lot of the conversations seem to be based on the idea that women are having all this sex that men aren’t having (when, again, they wouldn’t need contraception if that were not having it with men who ALSO didn’t want to get pregnant) AND more IMPORTANTLY that women are all out to sabotage sex into babies. That sex is this weird, distrustful dance where the ladiez be out to get the babiez and the… Read more »
“All of these controversies, from Komen to birth control, have been overwhelmingly framed in this way: religious/moral freedom vs. women’s rights. Or something along those lines. Here, the details aren’t what’s important –the point is the vs. women part.” Your last sentance dishonestly changed the topic. You changed it from being “vs women’s RIGHTS” to being about “vs women”. these are two different things. While I agree that birth control or breast examines are of concer for women, and very much the men who love them, I am uncertain where getting those pills or exams pad for with public funds… Read more »
The real issue is the definition of “right”. Many people have completely dropped the definition that has been used from Locke to Hobbes to Paine where a right is what a human being is entitled to by their virtue of being human. Many people now define a right as something the government should have to provide for them which is a privilege by the classic definition. I think we’d all be better off by agreeing to terms and then discussing what the government should provide. I think the vasy majority of people would agree that there are many things the… Read more »
“Many people now define a right as something the government should have to provide for them ” Do you have anything to support this assertion? Can you say for sure that when a women’s “rights” group says a woman should have the “right” to be provided the pill, she isn’t meaning “right” in the traditional sense? Are you certain the choice to use the term “right” isn’t a ploy to elicit more emotion and greater support? After all, more people will support an movement that is railing against someone being denied a right than a group railing against being denied… Read more »
Why does everyone on this thread have so many issues with providing more rights to women for the sole reason that men don’t have equal reproductive rights? That might sound odd, but really, I wouldn’t complain about men getting more rights in the workplace in a country where women have less rights in the workplace- more rights for ANYONE is a good thing when it comes to protecting their safety and health. It’s a step in the right direction for women to have the opportunity to control when they have children, and in an ideal world they would involve their… Read more »
“Why does everyone on this thread have so many issues with providing more rights to women for the sole reason that men don’t have equal reproductive rights? This is just using shaming language to do the same thing I discussed in the first paragraph, as well as what I discuss in my response to Kurt. Getting your birth control paid for is not a right, it is a privilege. You are attempting to frame that privilege as a right to garner support for it, then you attempt to shame me by pointing to how so many people have a problem… Read more »
Also the beer and vacation thing, really not any better than Rush Limbaugh comparing birth control to shoes. Birth control is a medication, used to treat medical conditions AND prevent pregnancy. You can’t separate the two functions with a clean line. It is completely, utterly, absolutely, and totally ridiculous to compare an addictive substance or a complete luxury to a medication. Most girls I know were taking the pill long before they were sexually active to control debilitating PMS, anemia, or acne. In slightly rarer (but still quite common) cases, we have PCOS, fibroids, endometrisis etc that require life long… Read more »
Also, take a look around at every other country that has a universal health care plan (see: every developed country other than the US) that covers birth control pills for anyone that qualifies as not being able to afford the portion that their insurance doesn’t cover (if it isn’t completely covered by insurance already). These countries are so great, because they pay for your annual Caribbean trip too!! Once access to prescription medications, whether the medication is related to sexual health, mental health, or physical health, is there for everybody and you can go to the hospital without worrying about… Read more »
You thought I was using shaming and straw men language? You compared access to birth control to paying for your vacation or booze. Really.
Jenna – I agree with your points and would like to add another, which I tried to make in the post itself: Women, if they are worried about pregnancy, are having sex with dudes with penises and sperm. Therefore, the men are engaging in some non-pregnancy sex, without having to cover bcp costs. Now, that said, I believe contraception, both for the non-pregnancy and for the health care concerns (thanks for that, as I mentioned in the post, my periods make me pass out – legit), are something that we as a society should deem part of our health care… Read more »
*”If we weren’t having sex with meN”
A man is not a real man, he’s a boy, if he considers birth control is a women’s issue. That’s akin to saying having a child/baby is a women’s issue. How crazy and stupid is that? Please put on a condom…I wouldn’t want to have a baby with such low intellect. If a woman spends $30 a month for the next 20 years on birth control, that adds up to $7, 200. I think somewhere in there, the male should be responsible for half. Also I believe that men have as much responsibility as women to prevent unwanted conception, and… Read more »
Having a child is a woman’s issue because she and she alone can decide the fate of the child.
The only choice a man has in having a child is to use a condom.
M
en shouldn’t be held responsible when he has no say in the matter.
Any woman who calls a man a “boy” for disagreeing with her is a spoiled little girl
Moderator’s Note: Rhetoric on all sides, please tone down and stay focused on the topic.
“If a woman spends $30 a month for the next 20 years on birth control, that adds up to $7, 200. I think somewhere in there, the male should be responsible for half. Also I believe that men have as much responsibility as women to prevent unwanted conception, and they should be thrilled birth control will soon be available for them.” why? Contraception only matters if your having regular sex, and most men aren’t. Same sex couples or people who cant physically conceive, asexuals, or dudes like me who have been laid all of twice in 27 years have absolutely… Read more »
Theoretically, you are either paying for “safe pregnancy free sex” or “full pregnancy, birth, and every medication that child will take for the rest of it’s life”. When it all boils down, you are saving money.
“Theoretically, you are either paying for “safe pregnancy free sex””
Really? and what assurances does a man have that any sex he has WILL be safe and pregnancy free? What assurances does the government give him that all woman will be taking the pill? none, so no, a man isn’t paying for “safe pregnancy free sex”, he has the same deal he’s always had, but WOMEN get that “safe pregnancy free sex” if they so choose.
Also, “he has the same deal he always had”…except an increased number of potential partners on birth control. I would say the deal had changed if that was the case. He has a lower chance of impregnating a women in the population as a whole, that is not dependent on her financial/religious employment status. I wouldn’t turn that down if I was a guy. And again, you are paying for birth control OR the more expensive abortions, vaginal birth, and c-section births. I’m not going to do the cost analysis for you, but you can google it. That is why… Read more »
“except an increased number of potential partners on birth control” You don’t know that for certain. and neither will he. furthermore, it still doesn’t address the women who want babies. His need to take precautions, and the consequences should those precautions fail has not changed. it’s the same deal he always had. “They could not get free birth control from their school nurse, and were terrified that their parents would see their pills or notice that they’d been paying for them with their parents money.” So, because some of your friends are too afraid of their parents finding out they… Read more »
Okay, so the fact that availability of medication is correlated with taking said medication, when you look at the population on the WHOLE, than we could project that more women would take birth control. Therefore, increasing the number of women in the United States of America who take birth control (regularly, not just when they can afford it), we can say that that it is statistically more probable (even if it’s a miniscule amount) that your potential partner would take birth control. Sure, there will be a small percent of women AND men (that 4% of men always get ignored… Read more »
First of all, those that don’t want to get pregnant will take precautions and already have access to free contraception via Condoms, furthermore, those are contraceptives are visible to both parties, so is of benefit to both men and women, not just women. If they don’t already take precautions, there is no reason to believe that will change, nor is there any reason to suggest more women will become sexually available upon getting access to free pills, so this is all just an attempt to play to your negative perception of male libido. I don’t appreciate the accusations it implies.… Read more »
Blowing past the medical applications of birth control pill (because it is a medication, and it shouldn’t be up to employers who should toughen up about PMS and who deserves help), you seem to be talking about you being against it based on political and economic ideologies. That is what I thought from the beginning, but you insist on bringing it into a privilege argument. You don’t mind the cheaper non-medical option being free, but you see hormonal birth control as a privilege. That is what I assumed in the first place, before you started telling me it was because… Read more »
An uncomplicated vaginal birth is approximately $7,000, or a life time supply of birth control pills. That is where insurance premiums could go instead.
If your periods require birth control to manage them I would encourage you to work for an employer that covers birth control as part of their healthcare benefits or attend a school that does the same if you are a student. OR you could change your budget to accommodate your priorities. My wife put herself through school through scholarships and work. She attended the school that gave her the best deal. She didn’t complain about her inability to attend a better school that she was accepted into because they wouldn’t accommodate her needs. Spare me the scenario where the only… Read more »
@CW
The freedom to discriminate and the freedom to engage government supported commerce are an anathema to each other. The moment an institution starts to receive government subsidies, all their protestations of individualism becomes moot. Georgetown accepts government funding so it must accept governmental law.
The only thing I consider “bullsh@t” is the fact that Religious Authoritarian have a place in this debate at all.
Those damn religious… too bad they even get a say in how we run this country! They (religious people) get a say because they’re citizens. If you don’t like it- sorry, don’t have a solution for you. I personally have no issue living next door to athiests or having my kids play with the Hindu kids from their school. If you don’t want opposition write a law that people can live with. The religious (and other groups) are going to fight you tooth and nail on this because they see it as undue infrigement upon their liberty. If you want… Read more »
You’re conflating religious people with religious authoritarians. I just don’t think it
makes sense debating any of God’s lawyers Sharia Kosher or Canotical.
budmin: “The moment an institution starts to receive government subsidies, all their protestations of individualism becomes moot. Georgetown accepts government funding so it must accept governmental law.” Let me re-phrase this: “The moment [Fluke] starts to receive government subsidies, all [her] protestations of individualism becomes moot. [Fluke] accepts government funding so [she] must accept governmental law.” Does that mean that, if Fluke gets government-mandated birth control benefits, then she has to accept a government law that might outlaw abortion? If not, why not? If you are going to say that accepting government money comes with strings, why can’t they bind… Read more »
@Jut You said -“The moment [Fluke] starts to receive government subsidies, all [her] protestations of individualism becomes moot. [Fluke] accepts government funding so [she] must accept governmental law.” Wrong Governmental law is on her side: Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973) Ms Fluke was locked in a conflict arena with Georgetown and our representative government has chosen Ms Fluke as the victor. Same goes for antiabortion legislation. Pro-Choice stands victorious (for now) The arena of conflict is our voting booths, our debate podiums our campaign trails and of course our court rooms. If you can’t out vote, out debate,… Read more »
Since women’s colleges receive federal funding and don’t have to admit men simply for political reasons, It seems more than reasonable that a Religious Institution can decide that it doesn’t want to pay for contraception under a health plan… especially since it’s not like they are handing out free male contraception
Sorry, but it’s the ladies who are ingesting the pill into their bodies so it is their issue. And the proof? Fluke wasn’t up there mandating condoms…. I mean that’s as much a women’s issue as it is a men’s, correct? It’s all birth control right?
Let’s keep it real shall we?
Yes, women are ingesting – because men don’t have an option. But why are they doing so? To have sex with men. I’d say the vast majority of men are supportive of their partner’s taking the pill.
As for Fluke, her testimony was on the necessity of bcps as solutions for non-sexual health concerns, so she would not have been discussing condoms.
But why are they doing so? To have sex with men. Well, they are doing so to have unprotected sex with men. I do not think that makes this a men’s issue anymore than men’s access to erectile dysfunction drugs is a women’s issue. As for Fluke, her testimony was on the necessity of bcps as solutions for non-sexual health concerns, so she would not have been discussing condoms. What I find curious about this debate is that the left never focused on that aspect. While most use the pill to prevent pregnancy, some women use it for legitimate health… Read more »
Sure erectile dysfunction can be a woman’s issue. Because we are having sex with men and are also affected by that dysfunction and would prefer our partners to feel great, have the physical health/function they want and so forth. Couples where women take the pill are doing it for many reasons, but yes, having sex with their partners (and helping avoid an unplanned pregnancy) is part of that. Believe it or not, there are women and men who actually discuss bc options together, share costs (of condoms, of pills, of toys, of viagra) and consider it a mutual part of… Read more »
You’re calling on men to protect your rights as women that men don’t even have as men.
It’s actually pretty odious. And I fully support men walking away from the whole issue since their only real choice when it comes to birth control is how they feel about women’s choices, and if they don’t feel supportive and happy with the choices women make for them, they’re bastards.
Actually I”m calling on people to try and promote health care choices for people, realizing that sometimes women need things that men don’t always see as useful and vice versa. I see both the pill and viagra as mutual issues. I don’t think supporting both sexes as odious. If I were a politician running for office, I’m sure I’d lose with that platform, but I’d run with it.
I wouldn’t be writing here if I didn’t want to promote and protect men’s issues.
Viagra is a red herring when it comes to _reproductive_ choice.
Men can’t even ensure their own reproductive options; what makes you think they can make a difference for women’s? And when they fail to do so, I’m sure they’ll _still_ be blamed for something they can’t help in the first place.
Republican men don’t represent men or men’s interests. They’re male because males can have their male identity removed more easily then females and replaced with an ideology. Republican men are just ciphers for the republican ideology.
Viagra is a red herring when it comes to _reproductive_ choice. Oh thank you for saying that. I think that while Julie was probably just saying viagra for the sake of it being a popular issue with men I don’t she was really trying to put it on par with the pill for women. But those who do try to put it on par with the pill for women seem to want to ignore that viagra is almost always marketed as being for a man to have sex, not to have children (and I’m sure most of us here will… Read more »
Nah. Women are ingesting because they can. You are not taking the pill FOR men. You are taking it so you won’t get pregnant. And I support several women’s issues, but male support doesn’t make it NOT a women’s issue. As for fluke, she wants a mandate for men to pick up the cost so she chose to use political strategy #1… Frame BCP as a women’s issue of health, rather than a female contraception that can also be used for some health issues. You are choosing political strategy #2… say it’s a couple’s issue and use sex to appeal… Read more »
“You are not taking the pill FOR men. You are taking it so you won’t get pregnant.” The what? And where does the pregnancy come from? She’s not taking the pill to stop some sort of spontaneous self conception. There’s sperm involved which equals men which equals sex. With men. Mutually. So they can avoid pregnancy but still have sex. Together. See how that works? You have the most selfish view of humanity I think I’ve ever seen.
Would giving women the pill on taxpayer dime alleviate men of any responsibility should that pill fail? If not, then “the having sex with men” argument holds no weight, because men are already court ordered to take responsibility for the consequences despite being given no choice beyond (their own) contraceptives (which, as pointed out, is not included). Making them likewise responsible for the women’s contraceptives (but still being solely responsible for their own) is only heaping more responsibility onto men, taking less off of women and giving women more options men don’t have. Is this how you define equality?
Why do you not understand the difference between motive and benefit? Men do not don condoms to cut their employers insurance cost or so that women don’t have to pay $90/month for pills even though this is precisely what happens when men use prophylactics. Men benefit from women taking the pill, but women do not take the pill FOR men. Women take the pill to not get pregnant. Men benefit from this. A vasectomy benefits women but this surgery is not done FOR women. I do not have a selfish view of humanity. I know what is “charity” and what… Read more »
I am glad you think it is a men’s issue.
I am tired of all those people who say, you are a man, so you can’t have an opinion about abortion.
Or, how could congress have a hearing on birth control where only men got to testify.
Or, you can hafve an opinion when you can have a baby.
Or, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be free.
Maybe that will stop, now that we agree that birth control is a men’s issue.
-Jut
“Or, how could congress have a hearing on birth control where only men got to testify.”
I agree with what you’re saying, except for this bit. I think men and women should have testified.
Plus, at the very least, they had to have known it would have looked bad. They’re politicians and yet they didn’t consider how something like this would appear to the public? Come on.
HeatherN: ” I think men and women should have testified.” I am going to disagree here. My disagreement is based on a number of presumptions, so I am willing to admit that there may be more to this than I understand. My understanding was that the hearing was about how the mandate would affect particular religious groups. My understanding is that it was not a hearing about women’s access to birth control. As many of these religious leaders are men, I do not have a problem with the choice of witnesses. If that is what the hearing was about, Fluke’s… Read more »
I’m with you Jut. It seems like now all of a sudden women want to hear from men on the birth control conversation. Not before but now when the men at the top that are railing against women’s access to it seem to be gaining serious ground and they need sort of counterforce. We’re supposed to just act like all those things you said and the “If you don’t ovulate stay out of the debate” attitude was just a figament of our imaginations I guess. Personally I don’t apprecieate being summoned for an invokation of fight fire with fire (“men… Read more »
I wouldn’t say “fight fire with fire”, but it would be good to speak up that this is your issue too. That sex is a consensual act between two parties, and if pregnancy is on the line, there are both vaginas and penises involved. Therefore, it’s not just a women’s concern, because I believe men want to keep having sex without babies, too.
The reason I say the “fight fire with fire” comparison is because I think that there is some sort of belief that now is the time for women to call upon men to speak up not just because “it a men’s issue too” but because there is a presumption that since we share gender with those men that were excluding women we’re supposed to have the ears of those male politicians. Believe me I agree that its a human issue but I question the timing of all these sudden calls for support (if for no other reason that the questions… Read more »
I can’t speak to national politics, but I’ve been asking men and women both to speak up for years. Lots of feminists have. Lots of non feminist but pro bc/rights have as well. Just cause you don’t see it on the TV doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
The reason behind this suspicion: ///but because there is a presumption that since we share gender with those men that were excluding women we’re supposed to have the ears of those male politicians. Is that I’ve seen in some of these calls for support its from an angle of “talk to your fellow men”. Not coming from talk to those with power because that’s where it needs to be directed because talk to those with power because since we share gender they are going to somehow listen to use more than they will listen to women. Just cause you don’t… Read more »
There was a small but vocal group saying stay out of the debate. The vast majority of regular people in relationships have always worked together to decide on their reproductive options. I’ve been talking about male pills for years. I’m not famous so I guess it doesn’t count. There is so much hyperbole on the site right now I can barely stomach it. We live in a country where things aren’t fair. For anyone. Our wars aren’t fair. Our economic structure isn’t fair. Our reproductive systems aren’t fair. We have a party that’s pro life until the kid is born… Read more »
I love all of this Julie – well said!
I’ve been talking about male pills for years. I’m not famous so I guess it doesn’t count. There is so much hyperbole on the site right now I can barely stomach it. Oh I don’t blame you for being sick about it. I’ve supported abortion rights for women for years but since I’m a guy that’s not in power it doesn’t count but since I am a guy its okay to auto-dismiss what I have to say, until the fact that I share gender with men in power that are against women’s reproductive rights? And I think that is where… Read more »
I don’t even think it matters if I am personally disregarded. It’s the thrashing about without any focus, disregarding groups in general. I don’t auto dismiss you. In fact, I’ve never met you in person and would be even less likely to dismiss you if I knew you in person. I rarely dismiss people even when I can’t stand what they say. My observation has been that some feminists (men and women alike) have been fighting side by side for years. I see women and men working quite well together in my personal life. I’ve seen good things on blogs… Read more »
I don’t even think it matters if I am personally disregarded. It’s the thrashing about without any focus, disregarding groups in general. Fair enough that you don’t think it matters. I’ll say that one thing about me that I’m working on is that when I am thrashed at and disregarded because I am a part of a group I return it in kind, and I take it very personally. I don’t auto dismiss you. In fact, I’ve never met you in person and would be even less likely to dismiss you if I knew you in person. Thanks and that… Read more »
If I took it personally every time there was a thrashing and disregarding of me/feminism/egalitarianism I’d not be able to write here or comment here because I’d probably be crying in a corner. I don’t take it personally as much as humanly possible. How can we get everyone to heal properly? See…that’s got as many answers as sides to these debates! Liberals might say-universal health care, sex ed, more support for parents, less religious intrusion, free therapy. Republicans might say-go back to basics, 50’s style families, more church, less government intrusion into the house, suck it up. Policies will be… Read more »
“And the people have to want to heal. They have to want peace and healing more than rage and righteous anger. Rage and righteous anger feel much more powerful than resolution.”
Beautifully said.
When we speak from a place of rage it makes engaging and educating others nearly impossible. One path to healing is to be heard. Doing it calmly is difficult, I know. We all get reactive when we feel generalized about or worse, abused all over again for being who we have chosen to become in the world.
If I took it personally every time there was a thrashing and disregarding of me/feminism/egalitarianism I’d not be able to write here or comment here because I’d probably be crying in a corner. I don’t take it personally as much as humanly possible. I can understand believe me. Only difference is that instead of crying in a corner I went to a much darker place. Sometimes I wish I had turned to crying in a corner instead. And the people have to want to heal. They have to want peace and healing more than rage and righteous anger. Rage and… Read more »
Women already have far more reproductive control than men ever will, what could you possibly need from us? Not to mention the fact that women have spent the last several decades telling men we aren’t allowed to have opinions on abortion. Well, congrats. We don’t anymore.
Excellent point. Men are well aware of the importance of reproductive choice.
Specifically, we’re aware that it IS regarded a women’s issue, primarily because it’s only women who have any choice.
We don’t need men getting involved to ‘support women’s choices.’ What we need is men working to promote MEN’s choices.
Agree on the men working to promote men’s choices. And, if you’d have me, I’d like to be considered to promote men’s choices too. I don’t agree that women are the only ones with choice. Condoms are a choice, as well as choosing partners you trust to use a diaphragm or take a pill. Fundamentally, it is your choice to have sex without children, or to have sex with women who only want children, or to have sex with women who would or would not get an abortion. You can choose with whom you engage in sexual intercourse – and… Read more »
I think that men, some men I’ve seen writing, want a choice similar to abortion. So if a woman has the right to abort in the first trimester, the man would have the right to cede all parental rights (and payments connected to) in a window of time after finding out he was a parent to be. This is one of the things I see mentioned when men say they don’t have reproductive rights. We mention using condoms and they get very upset, either because it doesn’t address the above point, isn’t 100% effective, and likely because condoms don’t feel… Read more »
@ Copyleft
Agree, woman have the choice which leaves them as the person who decides weather to use it or not.
@NikkiB
Seeing as how people can change during a relationship, choosing a trustworthy partner isn’t the only worry there is.
@Julie Gillis
Yes men should be able to cede all parental rights.
The problem is then what happens if you stop contact with the woman or she hides the pregnancy from you.
In this scenario? I guess if I were making up some new legal scenario, you’d need to be informed of your rights to cede, and if you didn’t make a decision in that window, you’d be either on for parenting or there’d be some kind of suit. If she hid the pregnancy and then informed you when the child was a year, I guess you’d have the 3 month window to decide. Clock would start ticking then I guess. I can’t say it’s a very lovely world to consider. And we’ve not gotten into the men who want to stop… Read more »
I guess if I were making up some new legal scenario, you’d need to be informed of your rights to cede, and if you didn’t make a decision in that window, you’d be either on for parenting or there’d be some kind of suit. If she hid the pregnancy and then informed you when the child was a year, I guess you’d have the 3 month window to decide. Clock would start ticking then I guess. No need to make up a new legal scenario becuase it actually does happen that way. You see in some states “being informed” can… Read more »
“That way no one is in a situation that requires legal and or medical action. I’m not sure why there is so much pushback to that idea.” Because that’s an idealistic view, that accounts for best case scenario. Laws exists to cover the worst case scenario’s. It’s like the draft, best case is that the draft will never be needed, that the US military will be sufficiently manned by volunteers, but should there ever be a need, the draft is there to fill it (but only men need ever worry about that day coming). Likewise, while being able to communicate… Read more »
@ Julie
The CDC’s 2010 survey found that around 8% of men and 4% of women experienced a partner either trying to sabotage their BC or get pregnant against their will.
Men are, currently, the only gender with no reproductive options if an abusive partner is successful in her attempts to sabotage BC.
Typhon,
Do you have the source for that survey? Hunting around for a bit, but wasn’t able to find it.
The CDC’s Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey page 48. “Approximately 8.6% (or an estimated 10.3 million) of women in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get them pregnant when they did not want to, or refused to use a condom, with 4.8% having had an intimate partner who tried to get them pregnant when they did not want to, and 6.7% having had an intimate partner who refused to wear a condom (data not shown). Approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate… Read more »
I hear all of the arguments around having trustworthy partners, and people who try to sabotage birth control… I just have a REALLY hard time believing this is MOST people’s experience, and the statistics say it is not. Over 90% for women, and just under 90% for men can and do trust their partners. Moreover, if you have concerns, always watch out for you and always wear a condom/use spermicide. Or have a vasectomy, if you know you aren’t going to have kids, have some sperm frozen. And, YES let’s all work together to get a male bcp option out… Read more »
“Women already have far more reproductive control than men ever will” Men have always had control over their own bodies and that includes their reproductive control. Don’t want a baby?? don’t have sex. Want sex with no baby? USE BIRTHCONTROL. there you go, now the control is in your hands. Women Now have JUST AS MUCH control over THEIR OWN BODIES as men do over theirs. But WAIT Women shouldn’t be able to choose whether they want sex w/o pregnancy? Not to mention the fact that women have spent the last several decades telling men we aren’t allowed to have… Read more »
While I don’t agree with 8Balls assertion women have “always” had more reproductive control than men (though nether do I think they had less, just different), NOW they most certainly do… “Men have always had control over their own bodies and that includes their reproductive control” Control over their own bodies does NOT equal reproductive control, for the very reason that they do not carry the child themselves, they must depend on a woman to inform him of potential parenthood, must trust in the woman to not deceive him, and must accept whatever decisions the woman chooses with regards to… Read more »
“Don’t be mad just because you don’t have a uterus and you don’t have a right to control someone else’s.” How dare you? Believe it or not, i’m pro-choice and believe that women should have the ability to get an abortion. However, I find it highly ironic that your advice is “don’t have sex” Do you not realize this is THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT that anti-abortionist use? The EXACT same one. And frankly, if pre-pregnancy BC and abortion were the only method that women have of “opting out” of parenthood. I would be okay with that, and completely okay with… Read more »
You’re assuming that woman are even using the birth control to begin with, just because the option is out there doesn’t mean someone will choose it.
While it’s great for men who don’t want to use condoms, the choose to use birth control isn’t his choice to make.
Also a men having un-protected sex with a woman he’s not married to on the basis of her being on the pill is a fool.
Giving men more option than the condom is the only issue that should be of men’s concern.
Giving men more option than the condom is the only issue that should be of men’s concern.
Damn that.
Its a top priority I agree but by no means the only priority. I want to see everyone be looked out for on the birth control issue. No more of this “you’re a ____ so your voice doesn’t count” separation bull.
I also agree that finding options for men is a top priory but it’s not the only one. Moreover, again, if both parties are interested in safe sex, does it matter who is taking the pill, given its the only option?
Yes – we should all be looked out for, and this is not a place for separation.
Yes it does matter.
I don’t want to rely on someone else when it comes to birth control.
Agreed – and you don’t have to. You can wear a condom.
But the point is many men are in trusting relationships where they can and do rely on their partner to take bcps because there is not an option for men aside from condoms – which many don’t like all that much. Moreover, men have sexual health needs, too. To say contraception and sexual health is only about women is not reality, or to say that simply because you don’t personally trust women to take a pill doesn’t mean all men can’t either.
I don’t want to rely on someone else when it comes to birth control. That’s why I say we should be looking out for everyone. I don’t want anyone to be in a position where one has to rely on the other with it comes to birth control. I want us (guys) to have as many options as possible and I want women to have as many options as possiblt too. And I especially don’t want anyone to be in a position where they can be deceived by anyone else when it comes to birth control. I want us to… Read more »
Absolutely. Both/and.
@NikkiB
That’s not much of a choice.
Yes men have sexual health needs, which is why we need contraception that’s meant for us.
I never said other men needed to follow me in not trusting their partner in using the pill.
@Danny
We can’t look out for everyone if we can’t even acknowledge that some people aren’t being taken care of.
We can’t look out for everyone if we can’t even acknowledge that some people aren’t being taken care of.
Agreed.
The only way it will work is if its truly for everyone, and not just whoever happens to have the most sway on the political stage at the moment.
so its a women’s and men in monogamous relationships issue, (i.e. a family thing). So that means us single guys who cant get laid are off the hook right?
Ha! I think it depends on if you want to get laid, without getting someone pregnant. If you’re interested in having sex but not having babies, than contraception is about you, too.
THAT said – regardless of your sexual activity, you have sexual health needs just as my ladybits do. If you are unaware of this fact, get thee to a clinic!
Im still not seeing the “it’s your problem too” side of this… Weather or not a woman has access to contraception doesn’t really change the fact that the ball is still in her court. She can choose to take it if she doesn’t want a baby, she can choose not to take it and lie if she wants one from a particular guy, and once pregnant she can choose to abort or choose not to. The only way I could possibly see any of this directly affecting me is if a woman who wanted to have sex with me didn’t… Read more »
Well. I suppose if you never want to have sex without a condom, than yeah – BCPs and other contraception aren’t your ish. Moreover, if you have no female friends or relatives, or don’t care about their sexual health or family planning needs, than yeah, more reason this has nothing to do with you. If these things are the case (seriously, no judgement – your life, your call) than no, I’m not talking to you. I’m talking to the millions of other men who do have sex with trusting partners and rely on contraception other than condoms to avoid unwanted… Read more »