There are a lot of ways to be a jerk when you’re trying to get laid. Emily Heist Moss writes a letter to her brother about how to make hook-up culture be about pleasure and consent, instead of “scoring.”
A letter to my brother, and all his college friends,
College is awesome, right? No parents, no curfew, no rules, and there are girls everywhere. It is an alcohol-fueled, school-spirit-enhanced buffet of ladies, and it’s hard not to want to sample everything on the menu. So you should! Seriously, I’m not going to rain on what could potentially be a literal parade, so just be safe and have fun.
You’re waiting for the “but,” because I’m your nagging big sister and that’s what I do. Here it is: Be safe, have fun, but don’t be a manipulative, coercive asshole about it. There’s story after story about on-campus sexual assaults, astoundingly high rates of date-rape, and even more terrifying estimates of unreported incidents. I’m not worried you’ll be that guy, but there are still dozens of tempting and legal ways to be a douche when you’re trying to get some action. Forgoing these “techniques” requires recalibrating your hook-up goals to emphasize consent, respect, and yes, pleasure, instead of “scoring.”
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There are strategies to get laid that are violent and criminal, and there are methodologies that are just mean-spirited and misogynistic. You can find the drunkest girl in the bar and hand her another shot. You can physically back a girl into a corner at a party until the only way out is through you. You can cut a girl down to size with backhanded “compliments,” belittle her until she thinks the only way to feel good again is to win your attention. You can taunt her with insults about prudishness, until she thinks she needs to prove something. You can taunt her with insults about sluttiness, until she thinks she might as well confirm what you already think of her. You already know that these dick moves are beneath you.
There are milder forms of deception and coercion, though, tactics that are dangerous because of their efficacy and subtlety. These are the ones to which I want to draw your attention. You can lie about your feelings for her. You can promise things you can’t deliver. You can agree to commitments you know you’ll break. You can hear hesitation or uncertainty in her voice, and ignore it. You can play with her emotions, knowing full well that if you were honest about your lack of intentions, you’d lose your shot at a hook-up. You can know that if she were sober, she wouldn’t be doing this, and you can go for it anyway. A court might not convict you, but I hope you know that these are dick moves, too.
The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.
All these strategies work more often than we’d like. I hope someday we can better teach teenagers (and adults) to call bullshit when they see it and to let the insults roll of their backs instead of eat at their self-esteem. But in the meantime, the fact that those manipulative moves might work doesn’t mean you should use them. These are tools for weak people, people for whom sex is a contest and winning matters. Sex can, and should, be fun. It can be playful, it can be casual, but it isn’t a game. Whether enacted by men or women, these bullshit strategies are not sexy, they are not cool, and—quaint as it may be—they are not very nice. There’s nothing wrong with a little push-pull, a little back-and-forth banter with a prospective partner, but assigning a winner and a loser to a sexual encounter sets us all back a couple decades.
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You should never feel like you’ve been convinced to have sex, and you should never feel like you’re doing the convincing. You want partners—one-night-stands or long-term relationships—who want to have sex with you as much as you want to have sex with them. The culturally established “no means no” is too low a bar. Only yes means yes. And I’m not talking about an “I guess we could…” or an “I don’t really care….” or an “Only if you really want to….” or a “Might as well…” I’m talking about an enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” Are those “yesses” less frequent than the non-committal, hesitant “not-nos?” Yeah, they are, but it’s worth it to know that the people you’re fooling around with really want to fool around with you, too.
Alcohol clouds everyone’s decision-making abilities, but it doesn’t make us deaf. Even at frat row, bar crawls, or crowded house parties, you need to listen for that “Yes!” And you need to be saying it too! If you’re a “Yes!” and your partner is a “Yes!”, then I revert to my original advice: be safe, have fun. Consent is not a traditionally sexy concept, but I absolutely guarantee you that two enthusiastic, excited, sustained “yesses” is what it’s all about.
Love,
Your big sister,
Emily
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—Photo taberandrew/Flickr
About Emily Heist Moss
So, he can have sex infrequently or almost never and be a completely stand up guy doing it! You know what feels good? Doing the right thing and getting punished for it. I’m sure your brother is going to look forward to those nights jerking off when he could be getting laid because he didn’t accept “okay, sure” because it wasn’t “OH MY GOD, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!” I don’t think I’ve ever heard any story about a woman ever being so forthright and affirmative about having sex. “Okay, sure” is about as green-light as it gets.
And you know how I know he won’t get laid? Because I don’t because at any perceived sign of uncomfortability with women I always back off. Instead of being aggressive and taking what I want, I’ll back off and then some douche will end up taking them home. Being an aggressive douche gets you laid when you’re under 30. Being a nice guy who cares about whether a girl feels comfortable does not.
Let’s not forget that he will be very happy to see the guy who cracks cruel jokes at his expense, about how worthless he is and how he should just go back to his basement and jerk off in the dark will have women flocking to him.
It is funny how the men who are perceptive to the female fragile existence and frame of mind are the ones who have to pay the price. How about we see some advice aimed at women for once. Here is my suggestion. Ask your little sister, ‘How do you think it makes the guy feel when you come in after he has had it with being abused, kicks the living crap out of his bullies, and fawn all over the ones that got the beating they righteously deserved?’
ditto, I’ve never been a jerk, as a result, I’ve been mostly celibate (2 partners), almost 30 and dono how to change at this point. If I could tell a good kid anything as a good man it’s don’t waste your good years while ya got em, cus once there gone your either husband material or a manchild.
It might be worthwhile at this point in the debate to distinguish between people who think they are “nice guys” and people who honestly respect women. Readings these comments leaves me convinced there’s very little overlap between those two groups.
The meaningful distinction is not whether your a nice guy or a douchebag, but whether or not you respect women. If you respect women (or people in general) you’re not going to fall into the douchebag category. Not being a douchebag, however, does not automatically make you respectful of others.
Being nice doesn’t earn you the right to a relationship. You still have to put yourself out there, take risks, honestly talk about what you want and what you are looking for. You have to do all of that while being respectful to another. Really, niceness isn’t the important quality here. Honesty, compassion and self-esteem are all more important to treating another person as an equally valuable human being. Niceness is, in its own way, a manipulative strategy.
I don’t think the author’s advice to her brother is to be nice; it’s to be respectful.
you’re acting under the (misandrist) assumption that challenging anything wrong about (some) women, automatically means you’re a misogynist. stop that. it’s not getting you any brownie points, and it’s totally a red herring, distracting from actual issues that need to be talked to on the male side of the fence.
There is a huge issue with courting/dating/sex “rituals” (I honestly can’t think of any other way to put it). women are not still “liberated” as they claim. Nor are they so independent. Though they have picked up many male-like behaviors, there’s still no full give and take, unless it’s guff. Women still feel the need to project this “neither here nor there” attitude when it comes to sex, when it’s obvious just by our all being human, first off–and studies, that women want sex just as much as men, if not more. They’re still worried about coming off as “easy”. ESPECIALLY if they like a guy. So yes, they will pretend they aren’t totally into it (at times).
I’m not suggesting that anyone go borderline rape (A Louis C.K. joke comes to mind) on the “off-chance” she might like it. Hell, I don’t even like the whole “asking” part. it should happen. There should be obvious chemistry. And if I have asked, it’s usually a “what do you mean ‘sure’” to that.
But back to my original point. Stop bashing down your downtrodden counterparts, trying to lump them into some woman-hating group. They’re obviously not as lucky and optimistic as you–rather, deluded. So if they’ve got a bit vitriol flowing, do you know, that (and experts in the field note this), human contact, affection and sex is needed. Its required. But I guess you’ve never had to sleep alone when you didn’t want to, now have you?
You’re like a rich man telling some homeless guy “go get a job” and blaming him for his plight when you haven’t even walked a yard in his shoes.
Women suffer a lot of negative consequences if they are perceived as “easy.” You shouldn’t be so quick to brush it off. One of my biggest fears about having casual sex when I was in college (along with STD’s and pregnancy) was how the guy would treat me afterwards – mainly, my fears involved would he brag to his friends and would they joke about me. I didn’t want a reputation as a slut, because that could stop quality guys from pursuing me. These fears stopped me from having sex MANY times when I was otherwise very turned on and ready for sex.
Maybe things have changed a little with today’s hookup culture, but I don’t know. I think those fears are still valid, to a degree. There is no guarantee that a person you casually hook up with won’t treat it as a big joke, tell everyone about it or use it to score points with pals. (Women can do the same thing about guys they sleep with.) I wasn’t comfortable enough with myself at age 21 (or now, actually) to just say to hell with what other people think.
There are plenty of men who WILL lose respect for a woman for being slutty. I believe often the quickest way to ruin the prospect of a quality long term relationship is to hop in bed with a guy too quickly. Once you are in “casual sex” category in his mind, you will be stuck there. Obviously, there are exceptions but you don’t know if THiS guy is an exception or not.
Women as a rule would be much more willing to adopt a “free love” attitude and express themselves sexually if there were no negative consequences. But itmis foolish to believe that those consequences don’t exist, even in 2011.
Guys, I don’t really understand your comments.
There’s a big distance between being an “aggressive douche” and “backing off at the first sign of uncomfortability.”
Honestly, of the pieces I’ve read on the Good Men Project, this is one of the better ones. Emily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist, this is a far cry closer to the truth than anything written by Hugo Schwyzer ever, and is frankly refreshing on this website.
And then you guys jump down her throat as though she hasn’t included that at all.
This piece is written as a letter between siblings sharing experiences, not as a broad-sided attack on men.
The fact is, emotional manipulation does exist, and it is not inherent to any one gender. That does not mean we should all go out and learn how to do it. It means we should rise above it.
Maybe this is easy for me to say, I’m quite happy with my love life. But I also know that I have honesty, both about my intentions and my feelings, to thank for my successes.
“There’s a big distance between being an “aggressive douche” and “backing off at the first sign of uncomfortability.
Honestly, of the pieces I’ve read on the Good Men Project, this is one of the better ones. Emily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist, this is a far cry closer to the truth than anything written by Hugo Schwyzer ever, and is frankly refreshing on this website.
And then you guys jump down her throat as though she hasn’t included that at all.
This piece is written as a letter between siblings sharing experiences, not as a broad-sided attack on men.
The fact is, emotional manipulation does exist, and it is not inherent to any one gender. That does not mean we should all go out and learn how to do it. It means we should rise above it.
Maybe this is easy for me to say, I’m quite happy with my love life. But I also know that I have honesty, both about my intentions and my feelings, to thank for my successes.”
when I was 19 and in school, nobody told me how to ask without being a douche bag, they just told me not to be one. so since didn’t know what a positive approach looked like, only a negative one, I didn’t ask, because I thought, “better to not risk being that guy than to experiment in a way where I could hurt somebody else”. I didn’t say Emily attacked men, intact the piece is fine, I simply added advice I wish somebody had told me when I started collage. Because I “also know that I have honesty, both about my intentions and my feelings, to thank for my successes.” Which is why after roughly 5 sexual encounters, ill probably die with many female friends, and a past of mostly celibacy and regret.
… I wish somebody had told me, so I offer my advice to him, in hopes he wont be left to the same fate… that’s all…
I guess I just don’t understand because there is nothing in your comment that seems to be actual advice (maybe I’m reading it wrong, I don’t know).
When you say “If he does this he’ll end up celebate” it sounds an awful lot like “Emily is giving out patently bad advice.” Rereading your comment, I can understand that this may not have been your intention, but it’s what I took away from your comment.
Is there any way you could post some solid advice instead? What would you tell her brother to do, instead of not to do?
“if you hit the cross roads between not being able to reconcile if your being a jerk or being sexually assertive, it’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission, because once you decide to sit on the sidelines for fear of being (that guy), you’ll never get off the bench, and nobody is going to tell you what a good man hitting on a woman looks like, so be rdy to make that choice and learn by being the asshole to a degree if you have too”
It’s controversial, but id trade a past where at one point i was an asshole but being apologetic and knowing how to ask for what I want without being offensive, over the one I have now, destined to be the respectful guy who dies never knowing what it feels like to have a satisfying sex life.
“mily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist,”
Where?
Sorry, copied and pasted in haste.
Emily, no mily.
Um…did you miss this whole paragraph:
“The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.”
We should probably table this issue for now and fight illiteracy first.
I read it now for the second time. Still where does “Emily admits up-front that women are every bit as manipulative and scheming as your average male date rapist,”
There is
1) No mention of “every bit as manipulative or scheming”, and
2) No mention of “male date rapist.”
I don’t know enough about any of the commentators to say one way or the other, but I’ve met and dated many men with nasty, cruel personalities who were convinced that they were “nice guys.” They were arrogant, insensitive, and narcissistic, all the while bemoaning how it was only the “assholes,” not nice guys like them, who had success with women. They were so bitter and angry that they decided to be “no more Mr. Nice Guy,” even though they never really were nice at all. Many of them defined niceness with a really low bar, like “I’d never hit a woman, no matter how mad she made me.” Great. Thanks. I’ve learned to be very suspicious whenever anyone bemoans being “too nice.”
Obviously there are truly nice men who know that they are nice. I’m just saying that self-reporting is very poor evidence. Like that movie line says, “Everyone thinks they have great taste and a sense of humor, but we can’t ALL have great taste and a sense of humor.”
Bitterness, self-righteousness, and entitlement are pretty big turnoffs, and they may be what women are sensing. Seething, misogynistic “nice guys” raise a lot of red flags to any girl who’s paying attention.
I guess the question is what’s more important to you – getting laid or consent?
If you’re not a rapist, this is the easiest question in the world.
Oh, Colin, Colin, Colin, Colin.
Well, your first problem is thinking that not having sex every night while in college is a punishment – not having sex is not punishment, it’s just a fact of life. Sometimes you get to have sex, sometimes you don’t. You don’t deserve to have sex every night while a dude in college – the default is not “I deserve to be pleasured,” and anything less than is a punishment.
Also, “Okay, sure” might be about as green light as it gets for you, but there are plenty of men under 30 who have regular sex and elicit a response much more enthusiastic and positive. Just because you fail to do so, does not mean all men experience such failure.
Perhaps the problem is that you don’t feel worthy of enthusiastic consent – it’s nobody else’s job to convince you otherwise, but yourself.
Problems with this comment:
1. The presumption that celibacy is the default state of humanity. It’s not. Sex is. A human being denied an opportunity for sexual expression is a human being in chains.
2. The presumption that a man is responsible for how women respond to him. Note that this is misogynistic in that it deprives women of agency and misandristic in that it attributes the failures of both men and women to negative traits and men. If women respond poorly to a man it is because the man are flawed, if men respond poorly to a woman it is because….the men are flawed. It’s hard to argue with something that nonsensical.
The fact that we have constructed a society in which people are denied sexual contact is the root problem. The ridiculous behavior of both men and women is a combination of adaptive and acculturated attitudes to an unnatural and unhealthy sexual famine which is artificially imposed.
Now, here’s the key point to understand: the sexual reserve of women is THE controlling factor in this situation. This is not an adaptive behavior. It is learned. Women have been taught to deny sexual contact to men. The anti-male influences on feminism have obscured attempts at exploring the extent to which women are complicit in the creation of dangerous and damaging sexual narratives, which is why you see so many women in these comments taking the position that women’s sexual behavior should not (CANNOT) be considered as a factor in producing the behaviors objected to in the article.
It’s LUDICROUS. This is common sense. If someone is doing something you don’t like to achieve a specific result that you are capable of denying them, all you have to do is prevent them from achieving their goals to deter the behavior.
We live in the real world. If you create barriers to sexual expression, people will find ways to get around those barriers. That is a fact that will never, never change. The question being asked is “How do we stop people from trying to surmount social barriers to their fulfillment in unethical ways?” The question that should be asked is “How do we remove social barriers to people’s fulfillment?”.
Unfortunately, the latter question would require men AND women to examine and adjust their behavior, which is why women will not ask it and the narrow minded gender advocates who have hijacked feminism will decline to admit it as a concern.
How would you want women to adjust their behavior?
Well, the Nice Guy crew is here. At least Colin made it a point to mention that he is a bitter misogynist because girls didn’t have sex with him. Yeah, I’m sure the reason you didn’t get laid is because you didn’t “take what you want”
Clearly, you don’t even know what misogyny is. Also, yeah, it really is.
Taking what you want from another without their express consent is, at best, morally questionable and, at worst, rape. Sharing something you both want is another story altogether. All that’s required is an honest conversation.
If every man waited for women to say, unequivocally, “YES, YES, YES!” then there would be 99.9% less sex going on than there currently is. I’ve never heard a story from anyone I know about a woman telling them without any ambiguity that they want to have sex. Not one. “Do you want to come back to my place?” “Oh, okay.” “Sure” “Why not.” “That could be fun.” etc, etc, etc. The percentage of women who will give a direct answer about having sex with a guy is lower than the interest rate at the fed.
Hi Colin,
I appreciate your frustration, but I have to say that I all your comment makes me feel is sad. I don’t know what kind of women you go out with, and I believe you 100% that this has been your experience. That being said, your comment is not an accurate reflection of the kind of women I know (and the kind that I am), or the kind that many of my straight male friends like to date. They (we) are vocal about their desires when they feel comfortable and excited about a new partner.
Emily
I’ve given up trying to go out with women. I’ve fully accepted that women my age — early 20′s — will never EVER want to be with someone who cares about their thoughts, feelings, and happiness. Unfortunately for me, I am unable to be a jerk in order to get laid and get dates, so I inevitably don’t get any. Even though women SAY they want someone who is nice, thoughtful, and will elicit their opinions on things; they don’t. Instead of just deciding on what to eat and if the woman doesn’t like it, tough, I’ll ask them what they want and if they don’t like the choice or whatever, I’ll try to fix the problem so that they ARE enjoying themselves.
This appreciation for the experience of the other person results in me having dozens of female “friends” and not a single romantic prospect.
This is, inevitably, where you respond and say that young women are immature and that women will be all over me when I’m older. It is great news to know that when women are young, they won’t even consider an intelligent, tall, and — dare I say — rather attractive man because instead of being a swaggering tool he is thoughtful and understanding. When they’re older, however, they’ll tire of having so much fun with the arrogant, backhanded, sleazeballs and be willing to settle for someone who actually has a heart.
The sort of things I see men do on a regular basis to manipulate and demean women into sleeping with them is appalling, but it works. It is unfortunate that I can’t bring myself to do those things, because by being the nice, kind, thoughtful man every woman says she wants to date and sleep with, I am actually the nice, kind, thoughtful man every woman just wants to be friends with.
I am older, and most of my friends are older than me, and of the single ones among us, no, women are definitely NOT “all over us, now that we’re older”. It doesn’t happen that way. The sad truth unfortunately is that while the number of gender egalitarian “non asshole” men is growing, and being fostered more than it has in the past, most women simply choose not to be sexually assertive because they don’t have too.
Most women simply don’t embrace feminism to the point where they feel comfortable kicking the “traditional male approach” to the curb, and since they are the oppressed, it is their decision when to adopt what. I’m sure at some point enough men will come around to the idea of “its better to be a lonely good man than a sexually experienced asshole” but we were simply born to early to reap the benefits the anti slut – shaming efforts of modern feminism. Hopefully the next generation fairs better…
Colin,
I hear your frustration, but it’s awesome that there are young men out there who respect young women. I have never, ever shared my body with one of the ‘jerks’, not at 20, not at 30. Nor would I ever sleep with a man who bedded numerous women. Keep being respectful, the right girls will come your way. It may take a little time, but they will see you. In the meantime, keep your eyes open, I guarantee there are alot more girls than you realize who are just looking to get a leg over too.
Emily: the issue I see in what you are saying versus what some of the male commenters are saying boils down to words. In the case of sexual violence words are the most important factor, I agree. That said, sometimes “yeah sure” does really mean yes. Women, as they move towards their mid-to-late twenties are pretty explicit about what they want…girls in their late teens/early twenties, not so much. Because they are so worried about the opinions of their peer group, an emphatic yes is near impossible to get, even if that is precisely what they want. And sometimes, you are right, sometimes “yeah sure” is “I’m not sure I want to, but…”.
So that being said, perhaps the letter to your bro (which is great, BTW) could include some degree of responsibility in double-checking. If a girl gives you a half-hearted response, it never hurts to just ask her if she’s sure, and let her know it’s okay if she’s not ready.
‘Cause yes, sex is best when both (all) parties are enjoying themselves!
You say the right girls will come my way, but I don’t believe you. I’ve been told that for years, and I still haven’t had that experience happen to me once. You know who tell me the most that I’m a great guy and that I’d make the perfect boyfriend? My extremely large contingent of female friends. What is a little time? I’m almost 23… I’ve given it “a little time.” Do I have to wait until I’m 30? While everyone else is having a good time, I’m stuck being unhappy because I can’t bring myself to do unsavory things because that is the only way to get any as a man.
I also hear a lot of talk about “confidence.” You know what’s a big confidence booster? Getting laid. Getting actual affirmation that you are attractive, desirable, etc. You know what is a huge confidence killer? Being exactly what women say they want in a man and not even getting a chance.
Why would you want to be with a woman that doesn’t want you for who you are anyways?
Trust me on this one, there are more important things in life than getting laid.
After being rejected for a couple of years more one learns to stop wasting effort on things that can never succeed and start investing energy in things that can actually come to completion.
Says the person getting laid. A few more years? Why is it that jerks have been getting laid and dating women since high school, and I’m almost 23 and I still have to wait a few more years?
Colin,
I’d ask why you’re so focused on sex, but I got it, you’re 23. It’s ok if you don’t believe me, one day you will see my point. 8of 10 is right, you don’t want to just have sex for the sake of it, with someone who wants you to be something you’re not…especially if you’re inexperienced, it will ruin sex for you. Yeah you’ll feel good…until about 2 minutes after you ‘peak’.
What ISN’T clear in your postings is whether you want sex with a side of relationship, or just to mess around with girls in general. If it’s the former, then by all means, go and find her. Most young women are looking for sex in the context of a relationship.
If no-strings is what you’re looking for, I return you to the ignored comment I made about keeping your eyes open, as there are likely girls out there who want to blow off a little steam. I went to Uni, I saw it: exam-time was the best for random, consensual hookups…stress relief, as it were.
And stop focusing so much on sex (although I’m sure it’s difficult). A guy who thinks about it too much…well it comes across in their daily interactions, and it’s not attractive. Focus on rounding yourself out as an individual. Women like athletic men, women like men who play instruments, women like men who build things…learn new skills, make great grades, it’ll serve you in more ways than one.
The only people who say there are more important things in life than getting laid and brush off not getting laid are people who are getting laid. Not getting ANY sex AT ALL is MISERABLE. I’d take totally random hookups, I’d take relationships, I’d take just about anything at this point.
You suggest I focus on rounding myself out… that isn’t something I need to focus on. That was the advice I was given in high school when I wasn’t getting any. I am a classically trained musician with almost 20 years of playing experience (yes, that means, I started playing piano at age 3). I am athletic; I am well read; I can converse in multiple languages; I own my own corporation. Those skills, and many more, are great, but they don’t make being alone and involuntarily celibate any more palatable.
Dude I have never gotten laid in my life, ever. I am a few years older than you are. I just learned to stop putting energy into things that will never come to be.
Colin, do yourself a favour and go see a pro. Sex isn’t as big a deal as people make it out to be. It’s best to learn it first time and have some fun doing it. See a pro. It’ll be money well spent. I know it was for me. Once I got the whole (gotta have sex thing) outta the way, then I was significantly more relaxed and cool about sex. Then hit up Plenty of Fish, make a great profile and date every woman who says yes. Your sex life will improve and you may even be happier. Maybe not (lotsa whackos out there after all), but you gotta do something different if you want things to change.
Read the book “The Game” too. It’s retarded in parts, but it does provide some basis for understanding what’s going on in the dating game.
Hey Colin, would you sleep with a girl who whined all the time about how her sexy lady friends get all the attention at bars, and no guys ever notice her for her accomplishments? Who whined *so much* that her bitterness towards men seeped through her every word and made you feel attacked just for being a dude?
No. You wouldn’t. You wouldn’t be interested in talking to her for 5 minutes. You didn’t show up to get attacked, you showed up to have a good time. My guess is you’re in that boat, and the ladies aren’t interested in your bitterness. Clearly you have lady *friends*, and they’re probably like “oh bitter Colin, if he’d just relax and smile a little more, he’d be fine.” That’s what I say about my un-laid bitter male friends, and it’s what I say about my un-laid bitter lady friends. Bitterness is hardly ever sexy.
Yeah, seeing a pro kills off this bitterness real fast. It helps too, just like Jessie says it would. It was definitely the case for me.
Jesse,
You are right, Colin is so focused on sex (or lack thereof), it’s unattractive. He doesn’t realize the vibe he’s giving off, which is a shame, because he might genuinely be a good guy.
Colin: As for being them ‘them’ from the us and them of the getting laids versus not, I’ve also endured long periods of celibacy. I do understand how difficult it can be.
I’d have to point out that while I don’t like the idea of a novice (perhaps virgin) visiting a LEGAL sexworker, as suggested, it’s not the worst idea in the world. Nor is jumping on a dating/sex website and posting your needs. But if you do either, be careful, and be thorough about your position and your needs. Sexworkers can be very gentle and understanding, and that’s precisely what you should have if you’re new to the game. Nothing like a bad first experience to ruin your inital experiences. Same goes for non-sexworkers. If you explain your needs, there are women who I’m sure would love to help you out.
But, I keep going back to keeping your eyes peeled and your ears open, there are more ladies in your age group who are going through the same thing than you realize.
You say that you have a lot of female friends, so let me ask you: have all of them only ever slept with jerks? has there literally been not one nice guy in the mix? There are plenty of nice guys and most of them have girlfriends.
I’ll be perfectly honest – my boyfriend is pretty great. He’s really what I consider a “nice guy” and that’s why I’m with him. He’s very respectful, very considerate, and just generally likes people.
Colin – the more I read from you, the more convinced I am that you don’t feel that you’re worthy of enthusiastic consent from a woman, and you’re making your real world experiences fit this narrative in your head. People can become so addicted to the “high” of being a martyr (or the “NiceGuy” in this situation), that they subconsciously fight any behavior modification on their part in order to keep getting that “high.” In all sincerity, I really think you should speak with a professional.
Colin,
Being nice is not the problem. I was a shy kid growing up and would never use manipulative methods to get girls. I am a ‘nice, respectful, and intelligent’ person, just like you say you are. However, I was with several women in high school and have had an attractive, kind and intelligent girlfriend since I was 18 (23 now).
Please take a very close look at yourself. Being a nice person does not exclude one from the dating world. Several people have noted that perhaps it is your bitterness, lack of confidence, and seeming obsession with sex that may be the problem. Or maybe, you are just boring. I don’t mean this as an insult, I just want you to understand that just being a nice person will absolutely NOT prevent you from attracting women. It truly must be something else about you.
The sooner you find out what that is, the sooner you can change it.
It is hard to be confident when you’ve never gotten a yes ever. Am I bitter after losing the best years of my life being alone and now being so far behind the curve that if I actually get the chance to date, a woman is probably going to be repulsed by the fact that I don’t even know how to kiss? Yes.
How am I supposed to be interesting and funny, if I’m always worried they’re going to be offended? I see guys “playfully” tease girls all the time, but the couple times I’ve tried that have ended in disaster. I don’t know what the problem is, my friends don’t know what the problem is, my therapist doesn’t know what the problem is, no one knows what the problem is.
You’re spot on in your observations, Colin. I can sympathize with your situation because, in high school, I was in your shoes. Then I wised up.
If you really wan’t to change your situation, you need to learn to adjust your tactics.
1. get laid- even if you have to hire a pro. Women in general are much more attuned to body language and non-verbal communication than most men are. Your biggest problem right now is that any women you meet can sense your frustration as soon as they meet you. You may as well have it tattooed on your forehead. There just isn’t any way around that other than removing (or at least greatly lessening) that.
2. Stop listening to what you female “friends” are telling you and observe what the do. It sounds like you probably already have, and that you’re intelligent enough to recognize the disconnect. The truth may not be pretty, but it is what it is.
3. Take what you learn and apply it to yourself. Change how you approach women. Buy some new clothes, learn to play an instrument, buy freaking motorcycle if you have to. Go somewhere outside your normal social circle and practice, practice, practice. If you haven’t already, visit http://heartiste.wordpress.com/ for tips. Best PUA site in the world, and it can even teach you a thing or two about human psych beyond the PUA field.
Don’t give up, man. And don’t listen to anyone who just says that “Someday, the right girls will come to you” bullshit.
They won’t.
Ever.
You have to be proactive. On the bright side, if you’re only 23, you’ve got plenty of time to still enjoy yourself. You just don’t have any to waste.
I’m much older than you and a bigger loser. Believe me, women will not suddenly become interested in you when they get older and more mature. You still have to pursue aggressively and get rejected routinely. The post here is just saying don’t rape any women, and don’t even get into that grey area of “almost rape”. Sounds like good and obvious advice.
Seriously Colin, pays your money and get laid. It’s easier on everyone and I won’t have to listen to you whine about your failure to take responsibility for your own sex life.
Of course, you’re probably in the States where taking responsibility of your sex life is illegal. In which case, I say travel to Neveda. It’s legal there.
Get to it and grow up some. I wouldn’t screw you either. Too damned whiny.
If women would stop having sex with assholes, men would stop acting like assholes. The power is in the hands of women.
Women, why you reward assholes with sex?
Exactly Henry, and while most are probably not sleeping with “assholes” in general, there is a fine line between being confident and being an asshole. Most often the women I know personally cannot tell the difference.
The underlying problem is not men acting like “assholes” its women accepting and confusing it for “confidence”. and as much as the good men of the world will hold ourselves to a higher standard, the vast majority of men wont, and will continue to do as they please for sex, leaving us to pay the price.
The real solution is to educate women on what constitutes confidence and even that women are attracted to confidence brings a prerequisite that men don’t have. It falls onto the women to prudently search out their partners for their behaviour.
remove the prerequisite for confidence and there will be a level playing field.
“Like” or +1 take your pick.
Women enjoy sex with men whom are assholes, because it makes their vajinnies tingle. Assholes get their hamster all fired up & ready for action. Nicey-nice boys don’t do that for them. It’s an evolutionary thing. I didn’t believe it myself till I did a few experiments, and lo & behold, it’s true. Tease a girl, make her realize you’re not intimidated by her, that her beauty doesn’t scare you. Mix it with humor, a nice smile, a modestly high amount of confidence, sprinkle with some mystery & intrigue, heat with flirtation, and voila’–you will have pussy falling at your feet.
Funny, but I only get weak at the knees for men who are kind to me. I avoid sex with assholes like the plague.
Ever considered that you’re among the exceptions to the general rule?
How many “exceptions” do you need? There are women out there who like respectful men. Why isn’t that enough? These are the emotionally healthy women. If you want to be with an emotionally healthy woman, develop self esteem and learn to communicate assertively and respectfully.
Just so you know, studies don’t actually show that aggressive or manipulative men have more sex. Studies actually have shown:
1) People in equal relationships have more sex. http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/06/060419.sex.shtml
2) Like attracts like (Byrne, Hahn and Hwang, Klohnen & Luo, etc., take your pick). If you think all women act alike, you will attract women who think all men act alike and have bad gender expectations. If you whine a lot, you’ll attract whiny women. If you take personal responsibility and develop self-esteem, you’ll attract women with personal responsibility and self esteem.
3) People with high self esteem scores are more likely to have sex. They are also more likely to do good things for the world. Ergo, being a genuinely kind person is statistically correlated with having a lot of sex.
I think it’s amazing how ordinarily rational men continue to throw all statistics out the window and insist on their personal creed that they don’t do well with women because women like jerks. From a statistical point of view, the opposite is true: emotionally healthy women don’t like whiny jerks, and that’s why men who whine and blame women and are upset at women’s sexual choices don’t do well. There is nothing “nice” about guys like you.
But, you know, you can always fall back on the anti-statistical point of view to avoid taking any responsibility for your own actions and social skills.
Wow. That’s a lot of inference you’ve made about me from a simple one-line question; pretty much all of which is wrong.
I’m simply pointing out that Caterina’s stance on sex with “assholes” isn’t the norm. I can speak on this from personal experience because I am the former nice guy who is now an “asshole” and gets laid a hell of a lot more for it.
I’m sorry, what? It sounds like you’re saying men are so weak, they can’t even think for themselves. Is that what you’re saying?
Blaming your problems on “women” as if they’re a uniform group, and saying that they have to change their sex lives for you to take responsibility for yourself and not be coercive and manipulative, IS being an asshole. There is absolutely no distinction between you right now and the stereotypical hyper-entitled disrespectful frat boy. So if I were you, I’d be glad at this point that some women do in fact sleep with assholes such as yourself or you’d be straight up the creek without a paddle.
Blaming your problems on “women” as if they’re a uniform group…is kinda like blaming your problems on “men” as if they’re a uniform group.
Your criticism is an indictment of the premise of this entire site.
The premise of this site is, from the horse’s mouth, “The Good Men Project is not so much a magazine as a social movement; an ongoing in-depth discussion that has by now involved millions of people, all getting back to a core question of “what does it mean to be a good man in these modern times?”"
The magazine is by and for respectful men who want to talk about personal ethics. There are a lot of commentators who don’t understand personal ethics and think that they have no responsibility for their own actions (“it’s women, it’s culture, it’s feminism that MAKES us unethical”). However, despite such commentators, I think the articles on this site are by and large grounded in personal responsibility and rarely blame gender groups for anything.
They’re hard wired to. Since before humans climbed down form the trees and started walking upright, assertive “asshole” males have been the ones most likely to ensure the survival of their genes. That doesn’t change just because of a few measly generations of so’called modern civilization. As much as humans don’t like to accept it; you can’t just reason away millions of years of biological instinct.
Anything goes as long as you don’t have any responsibility for your own actions, eh?
So where did all the non-asshole guys come from? According to your argument, every single freakin’ man on the planet should be a raging asshole because only raging assholes have reproduced since males climbed down from the trees 12 million years ago. Obviously that’s bunk
“There’s story after story about on-campus sexual assaults, astoundingly high rates of date-rape, and even more terrifying estimates of unreported incidents”
Most of it is propagated by the very same people who push the “yes means yes” enthusiastic consent model. Teh feminists
Congratulations, Emily, on a beautifully balanced piece. I often wished, when I was your brother’s age, that I had a sister to call on for advice like this. Colin, 8of10 and permanentlooser; please try taking a step back and reading Emily’s post again. The gold in there is that women want sex too – just as much as men. It is after all, hardwired into each and every one of us. If it wasn’t, most of us wouldn’t be here, right?
Henry, the asshole attraction thing has been pretty fully explored and it’s not that women are attracted to assholes, it’s that they’re attracted to confidence. I’ve found that women are more inclined to be attracted to confident, stand up guys than confident assholes. If you’re a stand up guy and you work on your confidence, you’ll be streets ahead of the ‘assholes’, believe me.
Great sex is neither given nor taken; it’s shared. It is entirely possible to be a stand-up guy and have a fulfilling sex life with as many, or as few, partners as you wish while still staying honest and respecting yourself and your potential hook-up partner without resorting to manipulation, deceit, coercion or booze etc.
It has been my experience that accepting a woman’s “I’m not going to have sex with you” or words or actions to that effect – I mean really accepting it on a deep level – and backing off at that point has later resulted in many a happy dalliance, invariably with the woman making the advances. Demonstrating genuine respect for your partner and their comfort – apparently – can be very sexy. Who’d have thunk it?
I emphasize that this is not a tactic and must never be used as one. You have to genuinely mean it – women can generally smell your bullshit from miles away.
Remember that women are sexual beings just as men are. Where it’s different is that (for the most part) the worst things that can happen to a man are the humiliation of rejection and perhaps a nasty case of ‘blue balls’; for women it can be horrendous physical danger. Ponder that. Please.
PS – Emily, I like your ‘dick moves’ term. A list of dick moves (for men and women) could, perhaps, make for another great piece from you.
Sorry, Bruce, “work on your confidence” isn’t any better advice than “be yourself”. Nothing in the article, or in your post, for that matter, offers any positive advice on interacting with women beyond “don’t be a jerk”.
You don’t have anything to offer the guy who isn’t a jerk, so why bother?
How to be confident when picking up women:
Look women in the eyes. Speak of future goals with confidence, but do not be arrogant about past successes. Be honest. Treat those around you with respect, including waitstaff. Be interesting: have three or four “most interesting things about me” lined up for talking points – did you recently travel somewhere cool, have you read a controversial book, did you eat something really disgusting that turned out to be divine? If you start to feel out of your depth, remind yourself you’re one of the good guys, and therefore a catch. Don’t walk into a room assuming you know that all women in that room will behave in a specific way (i.e. are only interested in assholes, and won’t be interested in you) – believing that all women behave a certain way implies that you don’t see women as individuals, and we can smell it from a mile away.
That’s a start I guess. Other ways to build your confidence in general would be to find something you love to do and excel at it – becoming confident in one area of your life will increase your opinion of yourself across the board. Stop living as though the world is keeping score: there is no life you “should” lead, only the one you want to lead – being confident in the choices you’ve made, in order to live the life you are living, is sexy as shit.
Well said.
Emily! I think this is an awesome piece – thanks so much for it. And Bruce is also right – women are just as sexual as men and if they openly want sex that doesn’t make them ‘sluts’. Or it shouldn’t anyway…
Paying attention men? Cheers Maria. It’s good to see a woman weighing in.
Very nice Emily. I’m sure your brother is more than thankful for having such a wonderful sister. I would like to be more like you towards my own brother….
Sex is its own category to be sure. No other activity takes on such pure forms of rationalizations of interactions. This is my main beef with all of this. I understand the origins of the frail nature of sexuality. I don’t think we need to continue to speak as if we’re still in that place of origin. The pedestal we hoist sexuality on top of may no longer be the best place to put it. Sex is not love, or commitment, or compassion – though it sometimes / often times, an artifact of those very things.
In my opinion, it’s time to move this thing forward.
What Mike said.
That, and the same deeply held question I sometimes ask and sometimes don’t when I read these kind of flaming comment threads. Where does so much anonymously rocket-launched rage at female writers com from? I saw this as a very loving and personal letter from a sister (who has experienced the college meat market) to her younger brother. She clearly did not say “don’t have sex,” she simply mentored him in respect. What is so “feminist” or outrageous about encouraging respect?
Where does the ‘rocket-launched rage’ come from? Frustration at having women bestow advice on us that does not bother to address the problems that we actually encounter.
Most guys have no problem not being jerks. They have a problem figuring out how to approach women, they have problems finding women to approach, you name it. Too many women seem to think that those aren’t really problems, and just assume that men just need more help in not being jerks, and that if men could just avoid being jerks, they, men, would automatically have success with women. Not being a jerk is the easy part.
Why shouldn’t I be outraged at the assumption that a man will naturally fall into jerkdom?
“That, and the same deeply held question I sometimes ask and sometimes don’t when I read these kind of flaming comment threads. Where does so much anonymously rocket-launched rage at female writers com from?”
Because the advice is so often in the form of you are bad, stop being bad. And being good means not complaining when it is painfully obvious that the people doing bad are rewarded for it, while you doing good means you have no right to expect any kind of reward for it.
“I saw this as a very loving and personal letter from a sister (who has experienced the college meat market) to her younger brother.”
I read it as a backhanded insult under the guise of advice to her brother.
“She clearly did not say “don’t have sex,” she simply mentored him in respect. What is so “feminist” or outrageous about encouraging respect?”
She said that he should always be considerate and consider the womens’ feelings. I have also experienced the college meat market, and when it was closing time at the bars women didn’t show much consideration of who would respect their no when the chose whom to go home with.
You know, I would not just either men or women in general by the minority of people who hang out in meat market bars until closing time. Have you considered that might be a select group of people who probably are not making the most mature or responsible choices about dating and relationships?
The vast majority of women are not out getting drunk and looking for random pickups in bars. They are in school, at work, volunteering, taking classes, involved in the community, at church, etc. etc. When I was in college, my friends and I were usually in class or studying or hanging out at a coffee shop or the library. Yes we did go to bars or parties once and awhile, but we were not sleeping around with random strangers. I never went home with a guy I met in a bar (despite getting plenty of offers). If you want to meet quality women maybe you should get out of bars and try to simply get involved in activities where single women are present. Then be assertive and ask them out. If you are just looking for random hookups then I can’t really help you, but I don’t actually believe it is that easy for guys to get random sex from strangers. The few times in my life where I’ve had a casual hookup, it’s been with a friends with benefits situation.
From reading some of these posts I feel like guys are comparing themselves to a fantasy of some ideal man who can walk into a room and get any woman he wants with the snap of a finger. Are there guys like that out there? Maybe a few celebrities and athletes (even then, I’m sure they get turned down sometimes). But I suspect most normal guys struggle and they have a lot less sex than they would like. And even guys like Tiger Woods who can have any woman they want — they keep wanting more. They are still unhappy and unsatisfied. Look at Charlie Sheen — yeah he’s banging porn stars and strippers, but the guy is a miserable train wreck. At risk of being an armchair psychiatrist, his sexual acting out is almost certainly a way of dealing with deep-seated unhappiness.
I could sit around and feel crappy about myself because I’m not as attractive as the most attractive woman I can imagine and I’m not a trophy wife for a billionaire CEO. I could sit at home and pine because I don’t have the face and body of a porn star or a model. What good does that do me? It would just make me miserable. Nobody gets everything they want in life — nobody. You play the hand you are dealt.
We only have one shot at life so make the most of it.
Sorry, first sentence should be *I would not JUDGE either men or women in general
“I would not judge either men or women in general”
Thank you Jill for point that out!
At the risk of being an armchair psychiatrist, it seems to be that some of these commentors have suffered in one way or another in a way that relates to women. Because of that, they have transformed that hurt into cynicism, bitterness, and misogyny and now only speak in generalizations.
So, since emotions are stronger than logic, and between the “back-fire effect” and “confirmation bias,” the people who wan’t to defend this article have their work cut out for them.
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
I think you completely missed the topic here (no offense), most dudes consider it pretty easy to get laid as long as they are willing to exploit another person. The issue at hand is how to ask for something like a “friends with benefits” arrangement withOUT being judged as manipulative or disingenuous. Most of the feminists I know consider the action of approaching a friend with a sexual offer rude and the idea that a man can freely submit such an offer to a female friend misogynist. The question being posed is how do good men propose sex to female friends without implying they don’t value the friendship as it stands, as this seems to be a genuinely common misunderstanding between good men and women. Like any form of communication, being genuine is only half the battle, the other half is figuring out how to get the other party to understand what the hack your saying
And for the record, yes there is a large pool of men who are largely successful in their sexual endeavors, many of them are “jerks”. The people asking the questions fueling this thread are those who are unwilling to become “jerks” to get laid.
Somehow, I don’t think having a dog chain on your wallet is a good way to start, though…
Truly wonderful, insightful, well-written piece. I may show it to my son.
This is a solid piece and a lot of good advice. I like your approach, like those above have said it seems really balanced. Hopefully some of this practical advice can make a difference for both men and women. I’m very glad to read this kind of thing since it’s not been that many years since I was in college and I remember much of what you write about. Some guys just lacked respect and I’d always hear about it from girls around campus. One of my younger sisters has just started college so I hope she encounters decent guys who think the same way advocated in your article.
So these guys who lacked respect, did they have lots of women interested in them? This is probably my largest grief with this kind of advice. In theory it should work one way, this is the society we would like. In practice it often turns out the people doing the exact opposite of the moral rules are the ones coming out on top.
I hear what you’re saying and I’d sometimes wondered about that myself. The big example for me from my college years was my first college roommate. A real “ladies man” to use the cheesy old term, he always had lots of girls wanting to be with him. He took full advantage of this, but of course also treated each woman with disrespect and borderline abuse (and I mean abuse). A lot of people in our dorm really respected him for his way with women, and I’ll admit that early on I lost some respect for these girls who went running to him whenever he said he wanted to be with them.
Then, after a couple of years of college, the lawsuits started (no joke) and the stories floating around campus about how he behaved with them once he got them alone basically made him radioactive socially speaking. His way caught up to him. A few years ago there was a site called “Don’t Date Him” or something like that. A list of men to be avoided, though it was eventually sued out of existence other than as an advice site. On a hunch (years had gone by) I went to the site and searched my old roommate. Literally hundreds of entries about him, including one that indicated he’d claimed to have gone to Harvard when we really went to a local state college. The girl who wrote that got him fired from his investment job in Boston for lying on his resume.
Point is, he did really well with the ladies in terms of one-night stands. Some guys were very jealous. I wasn’t because I arrived at college fully intending to find “the one” and I did. We’re still together, having met at 18, in our mid-30s now. I remember my roommate turning to me one day (we got a long great despite our utter differences in the ways I’ve spoken of) and said (paraphrasing of course), “Eric, I hope whoever you end up with sucks your dick every night. Because I know how you think of women, and I know how I treat them, and I know right now I get what I want, but over the long term you deserve the best from whatever girl is lucky enough to be with you.” This was his (somewhat demented) way of saying that he knew how he treated women was wrong, and he knew that I would end up doing well over time.
I met my wife soon after, we’ve been together since. His life is still out of control (I honestly have always assumed he’d been abused in some way, given the ease with which he abused women). His way is a good way for a series of one night stands and superficial relationships that end up in conflict and misery (not to say that all one-nighters or casual relationships have to, if there is respect they can be great I’m sure). But if you value women over the long term, treat them as equals and partners, and show them that your time together is about being together and not about scamming her out of something, then things turn out well over the long term. I think it’s just a matter of what a man wants in life. Can the abusive player types get laid a lot in college? You bet, but it’s neither necessary nor the right thing to do.
The goal of the piece is not how to get laid, it’s how to not be an asshole. Is coercing and manipulating women to have sex with you getting “out on top?” Are women human beings worthy of respect or just objects to get to a goal?
This is a great piece. Thanks for writing it!
And to all the guys complaining that if they don’t pull these moves, they never get laid: maybe you need to figure out how to talk with women about what they want. It’s not a question of backing off. It’s a question of pressing pause, checking in, and going from there. It might sometimes mean backing off, but it can also mean changing what the two of you are doing and finding something that works for both of you. If you can’t have that conversation with a sex partner, maybe that’s the reason you’re not having much luck.
Will you pay for the sexual harassment fines during the learning period?
Well said, Charlie. Pressing pause and checking in, as you put it so well, is the honorable thing to do and makes for a clear conscience later. It’s all about respect. “Are you sure?” or “Are you OK with this?” are simple questions to ask, even in the heat of the moment.
Press pause and checking in === pressuring her to have sex. You date rapist you. You shouldn’t pester her to have sex according to feminism. She is supposed to want it and have her own agency. She need to enthusiastically consent. Good luck waiting for that.
The easy way to get laid without being a jerk is to pay for it. All honesty, all upfront on the table. No muss, no fuss and everyone gets what they want.
Right? Right?
Yep, after reading the comments above, I’m definitely posting this. This will help out the young lads when they’re wandering around in the wilderness wondering how the hell do I get laid without being a jerk. Took me ’till my 30′s to figure this one out, but I encourage the young’uns to proceed this way, assuming it’s legal in your jurisdiction of course, if not, well, lobby your politicians for change so you can get laid. It’s worth it! It helped me in my life tremendously and I was able to make up for some lost time (not much but some.
There’s more than one way to get laid.
Word of advice, stick to indoor prostitutes. Cleaner, safer, more private and more likely to be free of the negative aspects of prostitution. Remember, the Internet is your friend in all things pooning. You’ll find what you need there.
Now, if that wasn’t a good man move, I don’t know what is. I get horny young lads off the backs of shy young women. I got young men laid (or helped them there anyways). I put money in the pockets of women who want money. Everyone was honest and upfront about their desires.
We all good now?
I can’t wait to hear the replies!
I actually kind of agree with you. I have mixed feelings about the whole subject but if a guy is single and so sexually frustrated that it is ruining his life, then visiting a professional may be his best option. I went to college in a California town about 2 hours from Reno and I know that a lot of guys took trips to Reno for the legal brothels. I can’t believe I’m advocating it but, there you go.
Well.
That was completely unexpected.
Hmmm… Now I’m at a loss for what to say.
A long list of ‘don’ts’ with too little practical, actionable, affirmative advice. Most men, most young men, are not naturally jerks or douchebags. Why assume that your brother will be one? Are you assuming that he will have incentive to emulate the ones he meets?
Wouldn’t it be more productive for all concerned if you were to introduce him to some of your unattached friends and give him a chance to be the respectful, well intentioned young man that he naturally is?
I had the same reaction… “So, where’s the advice on how to get laid?” The title suggested that such advice would be presented, but instead it was a long list of “don’ts.”
Sure, “Don’t be a jerk” is always good advice, and acknowledging that women can be jerks too is evenhanded. But as a friend of mine often says, “How will this get me laid?”
My best advice on how to get laid? Stop making “getting laid” your sole purpose when talking to a woman. We can smell it a mile away.
And your advice if copyleft wanted to play tennis with someone else would be , to stop making “playing a tennis match” your sole purpose when talking to that person?
The guy wants to find a tennis partner to play a game of tennis
Are you equating sex with tennis? Really? Because false comparatives aren’t very useful.
My advice would be to avoid asking complete strangers to play tennis, but to rather try to have a conversation and gauge an individual’s interest in tennis, and then specifically playing tennis with him, before asking that person to play tennis. I might also suggest he avoid going into a situation assuming that every person he will talk to that night won’t be interested in playing tennis with him, because he already knows how they all are, because they aren’t individuals, but one large heaving mass of groupthink.
That would be a start, I suppose.
KJN,
What works for a woman won’t (usually) work for a man. Since men are usually expected to make the first move, women have the privilege of waiting for men to come to them, whereupon they can choose to play or not. Since most men won’t be approached by women in most situations, they don’t have the privilege of being passive.
My advice would be to avoid asking complete strangers to play tennis, but to rather try to have a conversation and gauge an individual’s interest in tennis, and then specifically playing tennis with him, before asking that person to play tennis.
So you agree with me, good.
Cos this below was barking
My best advice on how to get laid? Stop making “getting laid” your sole purpose when talking to a woman.
Great article. I’d elaborate that the best, most energizing, explosive, beautiful, heart-opening, simultaneously orgasmic sex comes when both people are enthusiastically intimate. This kind of sex happens when there’s not even a question about consent, when it’s clear that she’d be more pissed off, offended, and hurt if I DIDN’T follow through with getting it on, now that she’s so hot & bothered.
Gentlemen, the key here is that we must learn to be excellent flirts, must learn how to arouse female sexual desire through masterful flirtation and foreplay.
Excerpt:
Forgoing these “techniques” requires recalibrating your hook-up goals to emphasize consent, respect, and yes, pleasure, instead of “scoring.”
and there are methodologies that are just mean-spirited and misogynistic
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TGMP seems to have a big h@rdon for PUA (pickup artists) community. The author sounds like a woman who got burned by some pickup artists.
It’s always funny to me that the time when women get mad at pickup artists is when he REMOVES his titillation and excitement: i.e. he moves on to his next conquest. Yep: getting used hurts.
As often as authors say the PUA is full of crap, the thing that seems to drive them wild the most is that the PUA community is so SUCCESSFUL at teaching men the basics of how to get laid with lots and lots of women.
It’s not completely ethical, it’s not nice, but then neither is the environment into which men have been thrust.
At one time divorce laws were fair. The person who committed one of the four A’s (abuse, addiction, adultery, abandonment) who was sued for divorce would cause the suing spouse to get the lion’s share of the assets, and custody of any children. If a spouse sued for divorce w/out just cause, then the other spouse got the lions share of assets & custody. This was a common sense arrangement that took to heart the pledge “till death do you part”.
But, in walked feminists and changed the rules. Now, a woman can divorce for any reason whether noble (he’s hitting me & the kids) or ignoble (I’m bored–marriage is boring) and still expect to receive sole custody 80% of the time lavish child support awards, and in many states life-time alimony (so much for female independence).
Feminist authors at tgmp have a point: PUA is very cruel and mercenary–no doubt.
However, feminists will cease being hypocrites when discussing PUA when they acknowledge that PUA’s are simply mirroring the mercenary and cruel actions of the millions of women who execute divorce theft upon men and minimize his contact w/their children to maximize her child support.
When feminists begin joining hands with shared parenting advocates and helping to right this terrible wrong which harms society and children (there are many dozens of scholarly studies which show dads are integral to well adjusted children due to the fact that dads parent differently) then they won’t be totally full of crap when talking about PUA.
I agree that it’s bad for society what PUA’s do (just as what many of mercenary women due in divorce theft).
But at least what PUA’s are doing is targeted at women. Aren’t we told every day that women are strong?
The main target of divorce theft is not men but children. Children who (w/out dads) are MUCH MUCH more likely to grow up to:
Have low educational achievement
Have problems with drugs/alcohol
Have less mature (or even dysfunctional) views on sexuality
Get into trouble w/the law or go to prison (80% of prisoners of violent crimes come from fatherless homes)
Be suicidal or depressed
Enter into dysfunctional relationships
Become sexually active at a much earlier age
Girls become pregnant teens
Until feminist authors start acknowledging the huge harm mercenary women are doing to children, then I suggest they stfu and enjoy their huge helping of JUST DESSERTS.
I bet the author of this article is still pinning away for her pickup artist who left her gasping for breath and was probably the best time of her life.
She’s not writing a letter to her brother, she’s writing a F U letter to the pickup artist that made her feel like a woman and moved onto another target. She’s going to make her considerate hard-working boring poindexter husband pay and pay for the fact that he shares a Y chromosome with the guy who used her (and she wished it could have gone on forever).
Feminists hate PUA because it is a relationship equalizer. It actually makes women want men (for the emotional titillation and excitement) as badly as men want women.
Most women who have been w/PUA don’t complain about being manipulated or mistreated until the PUA loses interest in her. In other words despite his crappy treatment she gets mad when he breaks up w/her, or worse treats her like a 1-night stand despite all the bs pillow talk he gave her about her being “the one”.
Many women think that if men are foolish enough to get married to gold diggers, he has nobody to blame but himself. Well, if women are going to put out simply because of bs pillowtalk, or a man passes a few sh1t tests or inserts a little drama into her life like simple techniques like “push pull” or “negging”, it would be just as accurate (if cruel) view to say she too deserves what she got.
If women are going to give up their affections over so flimsy a reason, then they deserve to be plumbed if a guy knows how.
To put it simply: since women get to do the choosing of which mate they will have, they are analogous to a lock, and men are analogous to a key.
A key that can open many locks is a good key. But a lock that is opened by many keys is a poor lock.
If feminists want PUA’s to be less successful, then they should instead instruct women to stop “giving it up” for such superfluous reasons.
PUA can only grow. In fact, I would expect that it will easily grow 5=10 times in size in the 4 years.
John, let’s not pretend that PUA’s sociopathic remedies are anything other then payback and hate sex.
But it works. The moment PUA tactics stop working, the PUA community will dissolve. This is the main problem with the feminist anti-PUA doctrine. PUA offers a long list of things that can be done, follow these steps, do these things. The only thing feminists have provided so far is long lists of don’ts.
But 8of10 has a bit of a point. People have no problem telling men that if they are complaining about the types of women they are getting with they need to quit messing with them. Why not tell women the same?
I actually agree. But when society condones and winks behind peoples backs at millions of women’s merciless mercenary positions in romance at divorce theft, then feminists are turning a huge blind eye to a huge part of the problem when talking about PUA.
Feminists are trying to continue to enjoy huge social and legal privileges without the fallout consequences (like why should men be loyal and honorable when there is no reward or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT).
It’s all wrapped up together. If feminists would join in campaigns in shared parenting, or start talking to women to stop giving it up just because a guys jerking actions make their gina tingle I would join in their campaign against PUA. But as it is, this is just a HUGE case of just desserts.
Budmin:
To clarify: I somewhat agree with you except for the venomous nature you attribute to PUA.
It’s a very mercenary view of sex & relationships. I think that is the best way to describe it.
I don’t think it’s payback, or hate sex.
If it is hate sex, then why do women feel so bad when a PUA dumps them?
No, it’s not about hate–it’s about being mercenary. It’s about men being dumped into the shark tank which the dating world has become.
The thing is: nobody is calling out the female sharks who lead guys on to drain them of their resources, or who marry a hard-working boring poindexter just to engage in divorce theft, possibly while cheating with him on the side during the whole marriage.
To say that millions of women aren’t also doing what PUA’s are doing is just naive. Furthermore, lately PUA’s do exactly what a large sub-set of women do, but these women receive far less shaming than the male equivalents do.
Thank you John D for proving what I have always thought is the ugly core of PUA’s. I am going to cut and paste your comment every time someone tries to argue that PUA’s are actually good guys who just need some help with women.
Hate sex, indeed. Have fun.
Do you know anything about John Ds association with PUA?
First off, I’m not a PUA participant. I’ve read some pages and I find some of the insightful.
I’m happily married for 8 years.
However, I am not an advocate per say of PUA.
You’re free to post anything you want, but it wouldn’t be indicative of anything. It’s not like you’re getting a quote from the president of the pua club.
My point is that if you’re going to call out a subset of men for being mercenary, cruel and manipulative of women when it comes to romance, then to avoid hypocrisy you need to also call out a subset of women (100′s of times larger than PUA community) for doing the same to men and more importantly with DEVASTATING consequences to children.
I agree that PUA is cruel, manipulative and ethically on the border.
But so is the actions of millions of women who practice divorce theft. Where are the calls for ethics and morality when mothers push to minimize dad’s time w/their kids to maximize her child support?
Where are the calls for morality and ethics when mothers who cheat on their husbands still get custody?
Feel free to paste whatever you wish. But, please don’t think you’ve WON something.
Nobody has won anything in this nightmarish corrupt system of family and marriage being put onto the extinct species list.
However, feminists pushed for the dissolution of the social contract between men and women.
To now complain that it isn’t rainbows and moonbeams for all women 24/7 and lay the blame at the feet of a small minority of men seems pretty disingenuous.
There is nothing I would like more for marriage to be a life-long contract and kids to grow up with two parents and loved. I would like nothing more for PUA to be a thing of the past.
It’s all very sad. Please keep thinking you WON, that’s what started this whole mess.
From your comment, I gathered you were an aspiring PUA but if you are not, I stand corrected. I am sorry you feel that all women are evil witches (you are married? hmm) but nothing I can say will probably disabuse you of that notion, so I won’t bother. Have a nice day.
I am sorry you feel that all women are evil witches (you are married? hmm) but nothing I can say will probably disabuse you of that notion, so I won’t bother. Have a nice day.
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Lol, I dare you to find any such comment I made about women.
I was making a simple point. The “meat market” of today is a direct result of the instability in marriage and divorce laws which make it TOO easy to divorce (and particularly incentivize women to do so).
The current status has vastly benefited a HUGE subset of women who are both cruel and mercenary and merciless in their stance for romance. To not expect men to adapt is both unrealistic and naive.
If we’re to talk about PUA, then we need to talk about the reasons it even exists. If divorce theft wasn’t a reality, then PUA’s wouldn’t even exist.
But, whatever it takes in your mind to make this about bad men, and not the group of bad women who number 100′s of times larger (and exert their detrimental harm upon kids rather than adults).
But I already WANT men. Why do men think women don’t want them?
All these comment make me feel really sad about how men seem to view themselves in this world: too weak to make decisions on their own about their behavior (‘if women didn’t fuck assholes, we wouldn’t be them’ seems to be a common refrain), so undesirable that no women would want them despite being one of the ‘good ones,’ they have no choice when it comes to with whom they mate b/c women are the only ones who hold that power, etc.
It’s sad that with all this distress over assumed emasculation, in reality it looks like you guys are doing it all to yourself.
You know I can’t get over the whiny comments that started this thread off…
It kinda reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:
-“Love is the ultimate expression of the will to live.”
So love life or drop Dead.
If I may weigh in on the topic from a gay male perspective (though perhaps not entirely representative), I have had my share of “hookups” and one night stands over the years. But I’d trade them all in for a repeat of the few, very few times I have had a peak experience–when love, not just sex, was part of the equation. I have even had what I call a “burning bush” experience, tantamount to Moses’ encounter with God on Mount Sinai. (I mean no irreverence or disrespect. There is no other way I can categorize the powerfulness of this experience.) Guys, when your life approaches its end, you won’t be thinking about how much sex you got. You’ll be remembering the love, the real love, you have known.
It never fails to surprise me that the same men that complain about manipulative women will defend to the death their right to coerce/manipulate women into sex and openly mock enthusiastic consent. Even when a woman openly ask them to do so.
@Lori Day who’s wondering were all this animosity is coming from. I don’t think it’s as much animosity as much as it is frustration.
For a lot of men Sexual Morality is seen as luxury for the wealthy.
Some of the commenters here obviously feel that Women have this wealth of Sexual Capital that allows them to be Judgmental, Aloof, Discerning and dare I say “HIGH & MIGHTY”.
While we poor men …(sarcasm)…are tasked to either sacrifice our sense of Nobility or face sexual starvation.
DoucheBag Ladies Man or Social Anorexia? The choice is yours…
I don’t think women will ever truly understand social starvation on the same level as a man. So a lot of the “Helpful Advice” coming from women tends to be interpreted as condescending lecturing from a Privileged Outsider.
With that said…
Collin and 8of10 for your own sake, please learn to love your own lives 1st then worry about women. Cuz it seems to me that you guys are waaaay too much in love with self-pity & helplessness to ever let a Women come between you and your pity party.
I mean you can fall in love with misery ya know, and when you go out with misery no other women will do!
- Men will do what it takes to get laid.
People only have a problem with it when men start mimicking the actions of the a**hole.
- Improving your success with woman means taking risks, which sometimes means being perceived to be an a**hole, creep or weirdo.
What are you talking about?
I’m a man, and I don’t cross people’s boundaries for sex. I’m in control of myself and take responsibility for my actions. Don’t group us all into one category, most of us are honourable, decent people. I neve understand why so many men on this site have such a low opinion of men. I’m lked around by my brain, not my penis.
People have a problem with it when it crosses other people’s boundaries. Coercion and manipulation isn’t cool, and is often illegal. If you think you need coercion or manipulation to have sex, you must hate yourself. Work on some self-esteem. Like most men, women have sex with me because sex with me is good.
It does indeed mean taking risks. The biggest risk is to speak to women, being upfront and courageous about the fact that you’re attracted to them, being respectful of their space, and accepting with courtesy if they’re not interested. All of this requires self-esteem, and none of it requires manipulation or is particularly creepy. Again, if you think you have to be a creep to be successful with women, that’s your low opinion of yourself, not theirs.
The only way to know if you’ve crossed a boundary is to cross it.
Just because woman may see these men as creeps, doesn’t mean the men in question are.
You have men who won’t even bother approaching a woman for fear of being seen as a creep,
you don’t have to do much to be seen in a negative light.
Take a course on assertive communication. I’m serious- knowing and respectingyour own other people’s boundaries is a life skill that goes well beyond meeting women. If you can’t figure out socially accepted boundaries and aren’t willing to actually ask other people what those boundaries are, then you’re going to have a lot of problems in life. Ask women if they want company, if you can sit down at their table, what they’re looking for, if they want to be touched. Take it from me, it sets you apart from the crowd who thinks that women can’t actually be communicated with like normal people, and shows confidence, which is sexy.
Those men are what is called “responsibility dodgers” and self-defeatists. If their approaches to women are typically labeled creeps by many different women, then they’re doing it wrong. If they approach women where women can’t get away, such as corners, hallways, on the bus, in lineups, show sexual interest before they even know anything about the woman in question (showing they have no standards), or just start grinding on the dance floor, they’re being creepy and need to learn how to talk to women as people. They need to take responsibility- the problem isn’t women or culture, asmost men have sex, but them.
If their approach isn’t creepy but they’re worried it is, then they have such low self-esteem that they don’t want to try and just rationalize to themselves why they didn’t try.
There are no socially accepted boundaries, just people who think their way is the only way.
I’ve known guys like that, could never be assertive, always asking question and needed someone’s permission.
A woman’s word isn’t law, just because she’s labeled a guy as a “creep” doesn’t mean he is.
Men should go out and throw caution to the wind because they’ll be seen as a creep no matter what they do.
There absolutely are- personal space, degree of intimacy in conversations, respectful of others’ decisions- cornerstones of civilizations. The aggressive and manipulative behaviours outlined above are way over these basic boundaries. In addition, if it’s not clear that you’re going to go over a boundary, adults ask first. Testing a boundary because one doesn’t have the communication skills to ask is only acceptable in children.
You are a guy like that. Aggression, manipulation, passivity, passive aggression, the blame game- these are all equally not assertive. Assertivity is knowing your own and others’ boundaries and being able to communicate them firmly.
As for the last paragraph, this is further evidence that you fall into one of the two types of men I described. Yes, occasionally a woman will label a noncreepy action creepy. Some people might also not like you for no good reason. Some people will steal from you, and some will insult you. That’s life. For men with self-esteem, it’s not this traumatic event you make it out to be. If men are dissuaded because their actions are every now and then misinterpreted, it’s because they’re looking for an excuse to not live their lives.
However, if many or most women see your actions as creepy, Occam’s Razor that bit of information and you’ll find that it’s much more likely that you, not them, have the distorted social standard. This is even more likely because you don’t take personal responsibility for your own actions (i.e “men will do anything to get laid” not “I will do anything to get laid”) and think aggressive communication is assertive, two traditional hallmarks of creepy guys.
Take responsibility. The world isn’t going to arrange itself around your social expectations. If you are not socially successful, while most other men are, this means that your social strategies have to change.
- Just because YOU think someone is crossing a boundary, doesn’t mean the person on the receiving end feels the same way.
There are guys who can’t believe i would greet woman with a hug and kiss on the cheek.
To them i’ve crossed a boundary, to the woman it’s normal.
- Adults YOU KNOW ask, there’s a reason one of the many complaints about men is that they’re not assertive.
Asking can you greet a woman with a hug/kiss would put you in that category.
- Occasionally when a woman labels a noncreepy action creepy, she will then mention it to her friends or on the internet.
So that guy is officially known as “that creepy guy” or “loser”.
It’s called social proof and sometimes it can bite you in the a**, a majority of people will take the word of someone they know.
- Yes guys will do anything to get laid, some will even take it to an extreme.
It’s all about the results and guys will follow the men with it.
- Everyone isn’t using the same strategy, it’s about getting from point A to point B.
Some men go the path of the “a**hole” and some men go the path of the “good men”
Asking IS assertiveness. Look it up. Assertive communication does not meaning psychically knowing what everyone’s boundaries are, it means being able to express your own and ask and listen to others’. And yes, I think it’s good form to ask anyone if they would like to hug the first few times, before it becomes a habit, as some people have different levels of comfort with physical contact. What’s to lose? If they actually want to hug they’ll say yes. Your equation of asking with passivity implies to me that you don’t ask because you’re afraid they’ll say no. You’re not psychic; right now you have absolutely no way of knowing if you’re actually creeping someone out or not.
As for your friends, either they’re way too involved in your business or are trying to politley tell you to stop being so creepy to mutual female acquaintances.
Occasionally you’ll get passed up for a promotion too. Life is hard, and sometimes bad things happen. But, again, if you’re actually not being creepy and have self esteem, it’s not a huge deal.
Nope, you will do anything to get laid, and you avoid taking responsibility for that by pretending that it’s a gender trait. I wouldn’t do anything to get laid. Nor would most men, who are in general ethical and respectful of potential partners. Most men also have a lot of hobbies, interests, and jobs that get in the way of being laid all the time, which they choose to have. These are all choices we make. You choose to be ethical or not; your Y chromosome doesn’t do it for you. Own it. You don’t speak for all men, and you don’t know them. Stop hiding behind gender roles and misandry.
Personalilty and character are not strategies. This isn’t Diablo, there aren’t specified paths on which your personality must develop. Again, take some responsibility. If you’re being labeled a creep all the time and it’s impacting your social or love life, noone’s going to change that for you but you. You can imitate “nice guys” (ie. guys who think they deserve sex for holding a door open) or jerks all you want but it’s not going to change a thing until you realize that your life is your own. You don’t have to follow one of two social scripts to have social skills. You just have to realize that other people’s boundaries are as important as your own, whether you agree with them or not. I’m a stranger on the internet; if you want to keep blaming everyone else for your problems, it’s no skin off my nose. However, if you want to actually see some of those problems fixed, take out a book on assertive communication and learn to respect yourself and others.
- Asking is not assertive.
You’re looking for an answer and that answer fuels your next action.
- If they don’t initiate the greeting i will.
People will not ask a person how they’d like to be greeted. the person receiving the greeting has to be the first to initiate it to turn it in their direction.
- Hug/kiss on the cheek is only creepy because of the person doing it, not the act itself.
- Men will do anything (good or bad) to get laid and curry favor with woman.
- When did i say that I was being labeled a creep ? I’m not.
What i’ve been saying is that men are labeled things like “creepy” or “weird” simply because of something woman/people find bad or uncomfortable about them, it can be anything.
- Someone with a lack of social skills isn’t spontaneous, for them just starting a conversation with someone is an uphill battle.
- I never said people’s boundaries aren’t important, i said that they aren’t gonna sit their waiting for you to ASK THEM to break through their boundaries.