There are a lot of ways to be a jerk when you’re trying to get laid. Emily Heist Moss writes a letter to her brother about how to make hook-up culture be about pleasure and consent, instead of “scoring.”
A letter to my brother, and all his college friends,
College is awesome, right? No parents, no curfew, no rules, and there are girls everywhere. It is an alcohol-fueled, school-spirit-enhanced buffet of ladies, and it’s hard not to want to sample everything on the menu. So you should! Seriously, I’m not going to rain on what could potentially be a literal parade, so just be safe and have fun.
You’re waiting for the “but,” because I’m your nagging big sister and that’s what I do. Here it is: Be safe, have fun, but don’t be a manipulative, coercive asshole about it. There’s story after story about on-campus sexual assaults, astoundingly high rates of date-rape, and even more terrifying estimates of unreported incidents. I’m not worried you’ll be that guy, but there are still dozens of tempting and legal ways to be a douche when you’re trying to get some action. Forgoing these “techniques” requires recalibrating your hook-up goals to emphasize consent, respect, and yes, pleasure, instead of “scoring.”
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There are strategies to get laid that are violent and criminal, and there are methodologies that are just mean-spirited and misogynistic. You can find the drunkest girl in the bar and hand her another shot. You can physically back a girl into a corner at a party until the only way out is through you. You can cut a girl down to size with backhanded “compliments,” belittle her until she thinks the only way to feel good again is to win your attention. You can taunt her with insults about prudishness, until she thinks she needs to prove something. You can taunt her with insults about sluttiness, until she thinks she might as well confirm what you already think of her. You already know that these dick moves are beneath you.
There are milder forms of deception and coercion, though, tactics that are dangerous because of their efficacy and subtlety. These are the ones to which I want to draw your attention. You can lie about your feelings for her. You can promise things you can’t deliver. You can agree to commitments you know you’ll break. You can hear hesitation or uncertainty in her voice, and ignore it. You can play with her emotions, knowing full well that if you were honest about your lack of intentions, you’d lose your shot at a hook-up. You can know that if she were sober, she wouldn’t be doing this, and you can go for it anyway. A court might not convict you, but I hope you know that these are dick moves, too.
The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.
All these strategies work more often than we’d like. I hope someday we can better teach teenagers (and adults) to call bullshit when they see it and to let the insults roll of their backs instead of eat at their self-esteem. But in the meantime, the fact that those manipulative moves might work doesn’t mean you should use them. These are tools for weak people, people for whom sex is a contest and winning matters. Sex can, and should, be fun. It can be playful, it can be casual, but it isn’t a game. Whether enacted by men or women, these bullshit strategies are not sexy, they are not cool, and—quaint as it may be—they are not very nice. There’s nothing wrong with a little push-pull, a little back-and-forth banter with a prospective partner, but assigning a winner and a loser to a sexual encounter sets us all back a couple decades.
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You should never feel like you’ve been convinced to have sex, and you should never feel like you’re doing the convincing. You want partners—one-night-stands or long-term relationships—who want to have sex with you as much as you want to have sex with them. The culturally established “no means no” is too low a bar. Only yes means yes. And I’m not talking about an “I guess we could…” or an “I don’t really care….” or an “Only if you really want to….” or a “Might as well…” I’m talking about an enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” Are those “yesses” less frequent than the non-committal, hesitant “not-nos?” Yeah, they are, but it’s worth it to know that the people you’re fooling around with really want to fool around with you, too.
Alcohol clouds everyone’s decision-making abilities, but it doesn’t make us deaf. Even at frat row, bar crawls, or crowded house parties, you need to listen for that “Yes!” And you need to be saying it too! If you’re a “Yes!” and your partner is a “Yes!”, then I revert to my original advice: be safe, have fun. Consent is not a traditionally sexy concept, but I absolutely guarantee you that two enthusiastic, excited, sustained “yesses” is what it’s all about.
Love,
Your big sister,
Emily
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—Photo taberandrew/Flickr
About Emily Heist Moss
Getting laid has almost nothing to do with how nice you are or how big a jerk you are. Confidence plays a big role, but there are plenty of confident men in this world who don’t get laid. In my experience, the biggest determinant to how much sex you’ll have in your life is how aggressive you are about pursuing sexual opportunities with women. You can be the nicest guy in the world and still get more sex than you could ever handle if you simply learned how to flirt, tease, touch, kiss, and talk to women in a way that made them feel good about themselves, while aggressively moving the relationship toward a place where it’s possible for the two of you to have sex.
Having said that… this article is misleading and downright disrespectful about how sexual relationships actually play out among men and women. If you’re in college and not very experienced with women, the chance that you’re going hear a stone-cold sober woman giving you a sustained, enthusiastic “YES!” to the question of sex is non-existent. I’ve dated, kissed, and/or made out with close to a hundred women now, and have probably had sex with about a quarter of them. The most enthusiastic response I’ve ever heard from a woman was, “sure,” to the question of “do you want to go to bed?” and that was after nearly three hours of fooling around on two separate dates. I’ve lost many sexual opportunities to not being aggressive enough (as told to me by the women themselves, after some time had elapsed), but I can’t think of a single time where I missed out on sex by being too aggressive. I can immediately think of two or three cases where I pushed myself well out of my comfort zone before getting a hard and fast “No,” and in each case the girl called me back at some later date intent on setting up another meet-up.
I’m sure there are plenty of GMP readers who are good men and are hoping to leverage that into meeting the kind of good woman they feel they deserve. GMP should really consider offering these readers some good, solid advice on how men should go about meeting these women. This article isn’t it.
You Sir, are a genius. I bow to your superior courage and prowress on the battlefields of love.
I never figured out how to do that. I just put up my money and went from there. Still, by the numbers, I was with more ladies than you. No regrets on that front.
Maybe this is just my experience and the men that I know, but most men do get an enthusiastic yes. My current partner initiated sex the first time and was happy to do so, as have many girls I know.
Why would you settle for anything less? I want women to be excited about having sex with me. I haven’t missed out on opportunities because women I like tend to speak their mind. If I’m not moving the relationship forward and they want sex, they tell me. Respect yourself. Do you really feel that you can only have sex if you’re aggressive at the right times, say all the right things, get women drunk, and act in a coercive and manipulative way (if you’re not being coercive and manipulative, I’m not sure what your problem is with the above article)? Do you feel so undesirable that you don’t seek out partners who enthusiastically want you?
You’re implying an awful lot of things about me that I never spoke to in my original post. All I said was that if men want sex with women, they should be aggressive about pursuing sexual opportunities with women. I added that, in my experience, waiting for around for a “stone-cold sober woman giving you a sustained, enthusiastic ‘YES!’” is a losing gamble. I never said anything about getting them drunk, saying all the right things, or being manipulative or coercive, so I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from.
The problem I have is the article is that the author presents one extreme — the coercive, manipulative jerk who can only get laid through borderline sexual assault — and contrasts that with another — the “nice” guy who waits for “an enthusiastic, excited, sustained ['YES!']“. But it’s a false dichotomy. Consensual sex between two adults can and most often does begin in ways that don’t match these two extremes. Most girls, especially those of college age, aren’t going to give such obvious signs that they’re willing to sleep with a guy for fear of being labeled a slut.
If the author was serious about teaching her brother how to get laid without being a jerk, she’d tell him to aggressively pursue the opportunities that present themselves, to understand objections a woman might have with sleeping with a guy “too soon,” and how to address those objections in a way that’s genuinely respectful or both his and her needs. A guy can easily learn to do this in a way that doesn’t turn him into a jerk, but also doesn’t leave him on the sidelines waiting for things to just happen between him and a girl.
The first issue is that this is exaclty what the author is saying. She’s saying meet people, have consensual sex, make it good. So when you disagree with her by saying that this is in no way what dating is like, it’s reasonable to assume a few things:
1. You, as you’ve claimed, have never had a sober enthusiastic yes despite having sex with 25 women. Again, this might be my experience, but most college-age women I know are pretty damn psyched about sex. If you’ve slept with 25 women and not a one called you up stone sober and said, “I want you to come over and jump my bones now” then you’re either absurdly unlucky, deliberately pick women who aren’t assertive, or are coercive and manipulative. Following general laws of probability, if no girl has ever enthusiastically wanted to have sex with you, then the latter two are true and you need to value yourself higher and find women who do want you. Alternatively, maybe you don’t seem trustworthy enough for women to not be afraid of you thinking they’re a slut.
2. You don’t think that, as it says in this article, just being respectful and not coercive and manipulative is not good dating advice because more aggression is required. Again, this is selling yourself short. Many women want to have sex with you, if you think you have to aggressively hound them until they shrug and say “sure,” then it really seems you don’t think very highly of yourself. If you think that men have to go massively out of their way and aggressively pursue women instead of living their lives and following their passions in order to have sex regularly, then you can’t think very highly of men and men’s sexual appeal. Let women can come to you sometimes.
To address your points, the author did tell her brother to puruse opportunities, just in a respectful way, and to respect women’s decisions of when they want to have sex. Then, in your last paragraph, you accuse her of not doing so. So it seems like there’s a lot more there that’s maming you upset than what you’re claiming. I’m guessing that you want the author to validate your decision to pester women into sex rather than just living your life and choosing women who you respect and who are sexually assertive.
I know there are a lot of presumptions, but then you’ve haven’t said anything in your last reply to make me question my original ones.
“If you think that men have to go massively out of their way and aggressively pursue women instead of living their lives and following their passions in order to have sex regularly, then you can’t think very highly of men and men’s sexual appeal.”
Well I know I don’t
By your logic I’m pretty much a walking contradiction. I’ve never in my entire life had a woman call me and say “I want you to come over and jump my bones now”, in the mean time I’ve managed to peruse an extraordinarily unique career, I’ve been to every continent more than once, I play 4 instruments 2 of them proficiently, I’m an avid cook (food is kind of a big deal for me
), brew my own beer (and soft drinks some times), I’m a giant video game, animation, and intercultural comic nerd and I’m working on learning to read 2 additional languages.
number of partners? 1, I waited for her to initiate, and when she finaly did she told me that me NOT doing it “made her feel like a rapist”. So while I’m sure there are many factors that lead a man to get laid “living their lives and following their passions” is certainly NOT one of them
.
Not that Ill ever change who I am in order to chase something as trivial as sex but the whole “women will naturally come to you if your just not a douche bag” is definitely NOT the norm for all of us -_-.
But I guess this is where I tell you I’m in my late 20′s and you tell me I’m just a kid and it will come with time right? <_<
Where’s the contradiction? I’ve met world travelers with great self-esteem, and I’ve met ones who hate themselves so much that they feel being the best traveler around is the only way to feel good about themselves. There’s no correlation.
I didn’t say that everyone will have at least one woman who’s really excited to have sex with them, I just said that if in 25 sexual encounters DD didn’t find one then he’s beating the odds with a vengeance. How he hasn’t managed to find one partner in 25 who enthusiastically wanted to have sex is totally beyond me, unless he deliberately picks unassertive women to pester.
Alright, that was not normal behaviour for your former partner. Feeling like a “rapist” for initiating sex (provided it was done respectfully) is very likely due to deep personal issues on her part. Not women in general or culture, or on yours, but on hers. Sounds like you’ve moved on, so why still feel bad about it anymore?
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So here’s the issue- it really is the norm for most of us. 80% of American men 18-34 have sex at least once a month. You’re not one of them. It might be bad luck, but probably not. It might be the entire culture, but then why are so many men, particularly men with high self-esteem successful? The responsibility for change lies with you, so take a look at yourself. I’m not saying that it’s neccessary for you to have sex once a month, but if you want to, think about what you need to do to be more appealing.
In the course of living your life and following your passions, traveling and playing instruments, you’ve met a lot of women. That’s step #1. Step #2 is being the kind of person people would date. I know you from a few paragraphs and I can already see that this is where you’re going off the rails. You don’t think you’re sexy, or that men can be sexy (see your first sentence). You are arguing in support of a guy who thinks that aggressively bothering women into bored sex is the norm for human relationships. You’ve got a bitter streak and blame the world for your problems. You’ve traveled the world and have no doubt seen people who can’t afford a meal to eat, but still feel whiny that you’ve only had 1 sexual partner (lots of men have zero, not including men who are too disabled for most types of sex). You want me, a total stranger over the internet, to agree with you that the world’s treating you badly when life dealt you a hell of a better hand than 90% of humans. You have some holier than thou going on, “Not that I’ll ever change for something as tricial as sex” when we both know that this entire thread is about sex and clearly neither of us thinks it’s trivial. Do any of those seem like attractive qualities? And if I can tell that from three paragraphs, think of how long it takes the women you know to figure it out.
Being a respectful, confident, compassionate person isn’t something that can be faked. If you’re angry at women, angry at the world, over-entitled, close-minded, insecure, it shines right through you. If you think that the only way you’d be worthy of love is to stop living your life and aggressively chase and bother women like DD, then why do you expect women to have a higher opinion? You have overentitlement and misogyny where you should have personal responsibility.
So hell no, I don’t think you’re still young (I’m 24, myself), and I don’t think that life is going to just throw a woman at as if she was a random agent of fate rather than a real person who makes her own choices. I think that if you’ve met so many women and had so little success, it’s time for you to admit that you need to drop the poor-me attitude and start doing what you should be doing to be a more appealing prospect. Start with self esteem.
“80% of American men 18-34 have sex at least once a month.”
I googled this and couldn’t find the reference. Care to help me out here?
It was in the textbook of a human sexuality course I’ve taken, but I left that book at my office. So yeah, I am actually sorry for posting a stat without being able to back it up. But here are some good internet resources on sexuality:
http://www.iub.edu/~kinsey/resources/FAQ.html#frequency
Highlights:
up to 43 percent of single men 18-24 have sex monthly
up to 53 percent of single men 25-29 have sex monthly
up to 74% of partnered men 18-24 have sex monthly
up to 80% of partnered men 25-29 have sex monthly
up to 96% of married men 18-24 have sex monthly
up to 98% of married men 25-29 have sex monthly
90% of men have had sex in the last year (compared to 86% for women)
Also, keep in mind that these statistics are getting old, applying to 1994. However, if anything, 1994 was a more sexually conservative time than now.
My statistic was rough, and probably a few percentage points too high, but I think the point still stands that it is by far the norm to have some sexual activity.
wow… I don’t even have quotes big enough to highlight all the stuff you “know” about me that I didn’t say, and isn’t true.
I’m quite sure I didn’t blame anybody else for me not getting laid, in fact, I don’t think I even said i was upset about not getting laid, and I KNOW I didn’t “blame women” for it. Im also sure I never said anything akin to “zomg my life sux, woe is me” so I don’t know where you got the idea that I was miserable, cus that’s certainly not the case.
All I meant to point out was “Being a respectful, confident, compassionate person” isn’t 100% of what it takes to get laid, it’s only part of the equation (unless your a douche bag
), otherwise all of us would have women banging down the doors 
.
And as far as douche bag’s moves go, I’m quite sure telling people if they aren’t getting laid once a month there is something wrong with them is pretty high on that list.
… and as for the “so why still feel bad about it anymore?” comment, um maybe it’s because when somebody you care about tells you you made them feel like a rapist you really want to know why so you don’t do that to OTHER people you care about
You are under no obligation to respond to me, or even read my posts. You wanted to bring your personal life into a defense of DD’s aggressive and coercive tactics (read his later post about how he first had sex with his girlfriend- his description of his pressuring her to have sex and denial of her agency is a chilling description reminiscent of the battle of the somme- “Squad hands have met heavy resistance”), not me. If you put something on the internet, it will get criticized.
You say I’m wrong, but I have no reason to believe you. You could bring more examples from your personal life in, but then you might, like DD, be digging yourself a hole. It’s your call.
Here’s why I feel you don’t take responsibility. You’re posting in defense of a guy with very little respect for when women want to have sex. You think that there’s some formula to getting laid (maybe 75% being a respectful confident guy and 25% high-pressure tactics) which implies that you buy into the vending machine mentality- women are something you can “get” by having the right combination of strategies. You also appear to have little self-confidence as you think you’re somehow missing the magic ingredient (from the context, is it aggression?). If you haven’t had sex because you have high standards or are too busy, own it. However, you clearly feel that you want to have sex, but have been unable to, and were asking me how you’re not having sex when you’re just such a stand-up guy, that reeks of entitlement and insecurity. Why, when you’re so well-traveled and talented and generally awesome, aren’t women banging down your door? It couldn’t be the fact that you’re insecure (because you’re so awesome and feel the need to tell people on the internet about it to prove that actually confident men don’t have sex), it’s because you haven’t adopted the universal formula to get laid! It’s because all those men who say that just being a genuine, happy person is enough to find sexual partners must be lying to you!
I actually clarified that there’s nothing wrong with not having sex. I just said that if you’ve wanted to and are having trouble, it’s your responsibility to do something about it, because it is very unlikely that the world is going to change. That is your insecurity coming out. I don’t think you’re a lesser man for not having sex, but you clearly do. So, if you want to have sex, figure out what the problem is and fix it,
I can’t think of a single way in which that could have been your fault in any way. Again, it really sucks, but I think your reaction to it shows some insecurity.
I’m just sayin gettin laid takes work. Like DD, you gotta be willing to put in mad time and effort to set the conditions and show persistent interest for a sustained amount of time, “just not being a genuinely good person” is only 1/3 the battle.
and the only reason i spoke up is cus people should know that just not being a douche bag isn’t going to compensate for sitting on the side lines. getting laid takes SERIOUS effort.
You realize that my issue with DD isn’t that he puts effort into meeting girls, it’s that he thinks the only way to have sex is to pressure them into it instead of waiting for when they can enthusiastically consent. Enthusiastic consent is the core issue here. And yes, if you think that high-pressure tactics are the “work” you need to put in, then you’re selling yourself short.
I’d say it takes risks, and it helps to work on yourself, but dating is fun, not hard work. If you see a woman as a job, with special stages to continuiously move towards sealing the deal, then it just seems that you should work on your own self-respect so you can actually just have fun on dates and not worry if it takes two dates or ten until she’s ready to enthusiastically have sex with you.
Maybe if you change up your strategy, you’ll get something a little more enthusiastic than a “sure.” ‘Cause your approach right now sounds a lot like the misogynistic, manipulative, aggressive, and ignorant methodologies that Emily is trying to combat. You might even find you enjoy sex more when you’re sleeping with someone who, ya know, actually acts like they want you… who thinks you’re more deserving of a “yes” than just a “sure.” I DON’T KNOW JUST A THOUGHT.
DD’s comment above is the most sensible, reasonable thing I have ever heard on this site. Its the only thing that accords with my experience.
@Lee and @Julie: Typical feminist bullshit. Most women expect males to be sexually aggressive. They expect dominance. They don’t initiate. There is tonnes of evidence this is the case. Read a fucking romance novel. Watch a movie or a television show. Read Nancy’s Friday’s My Secret Garden. Read it carefully. Almost all the fantasy’s are from the POV of a passive women, reacting to what her lover is doing. Including the lesbian fantasy!! So even when a woman imagines herself with another woman, she thinks of herself in the passive role.
Your world view is delusional. I don’t even know why your part of the debate.
The reason we know that women expect us to initiate is because THEY TELL US. Over and over again repeatedly they say things like:
“I expect men to initiate”
” If a guy takes to long to make a move, I lose interest” (this I have heard 3 times)
“I want equality in the relationship but in bed I expect the guy to be dominant” (I heard this from a very assertive woman)
“Don’t tell me you want to kiss me….just do it”
I have even had a weird interaction where a women wanted sex and I didn’t so she tried to guilt me into initiating sex with her. Even in this situation where a woman wanted sex she had to figure out a way to get me to initiate it because she didn’t want to do it herself.
I stopped reading after “there is tonnes of evidence, read a romance novel.” if you are citing romance novels as empirical evidence about healthy sexual relationships, you might want to go back to school and take a couple classes in research methodology. research novels and sporadic anecdotal experiences always make for the best empirical generalizations. #sarcasm
Speaking for myself, there’s a point where assertiveness becomes a turn-off, and it’s pretty easy to pass that point. Is it flattering when a guy comes on to me? A little, but if this is my first interaction with the person it’s more skeevy than anything.
Cripes, I’m pretty submissive myself, and dominant men are still a turn-off to me. Perhaps one of the reasons that I wound up with the guy I did was that when we initially met and I told him to back off (I was dating someone else at the time), HE DID. Had he pushed things at that time, I doubt I would have continued to give him the time of day.
I think the more important issue though is that the more work you do to ‘convince’ a woman to have sex with you, blurrier the line between consensual sex and rape. It isn’t about which method will get you laid more, it’s about which one is more respectful of women. And while I’m still just speaking for myself, I much prefer a man who respects me to one who doesn’t.
Okay. Dude. First of all, you used romance novels as a source. That discredits your entire argument.
Second, you clearly don’t understand what Emily is saying here: she doesn’t mean that a man shouldn’t ever try to initiate sex; she doesn’t mean that men should just wait around for a woman to call and ask them for sex. What she means is that whoever DOES initiate sex, whether man or woman, should a) ASK and b) actually LISTEN to whatever response is given. And the only way for the sex to be good for all involved and truly consensual is if the response is an enthusiastic “YES.”
Friend, as a ladyperson I do appreciate when men initiate things or show signs of interest in me before I decide I’ll sleep with him. But those things all come before sex, before my enthusiastic, “Yes!” It means at the party where we are flirting, and you’re reading my interest in you right, by all means take the initiative to touch me in a flirtatious way, maybe take the initiative to kiss me if it feels right, or maybe you just take the initiative to say you’d like to see me at X tomorrow night and get my number. Waiting for my “Yes!” to have sex doesn’t mean you are completely paralyzed and stuck discussing Doestoevsky with me until suddenly the urge to have sex strikes me like a bolt of lightening and I’m tearing at your clothes. There is a whole wonderful, flirtatious run-up to having sex that you miss if you’re busy carting drunk girls directly to bed for lackluster, bored sex that she was too out of it to really care whether she did or not.
A guy doesn”t have to be a jerk to get laid, but it sure helps- there’s plenty of demonstrable reason for saying that.
Emily’s essay itself lends evidence that being a jerk (to get laid) is at least fairly common; would it be so common if it didn’t work?
Why does it work?
Probably because humans seem to want what they can’t have, abandoning a greater amount of judgement to get it. In a dynamic where the woman is doing the choosing, she’ll often ignore better judgement to gain what she thinks she can’t have- hence the guy’s negging, the mild insults, the no calls.
The more attractive a woman is- or at least a woman who has been fawned over because of her looks- the better “being a jerk” works.
That’s why, as a woman’s attractiveness ascends the 1 through 10 scale, it’s increasingly likely that she’s with a jerk.
I DON’T BELIEVE women when they say that all they want is a sweet, considerate man. They only say that because they think their mother must be listening. They’d never listen to Dad, since he’s a patriarchal putz, after all – and she’s emPOWered – even if Dad might have some idea of which guys are sincere and which guys are players.
Poster “Colin” will eventually find someone, maybe when she’s about 30. The sad thing is this: the more attractive this woman is, the less worthy she is of “Colin” ‘s affection. At 30, she’s ridden every painted pony on the sexual merry-go-round; while I reject the notion of calling such a woman “sloppy seconds” because of her sexual past, she’s going to bring alot of emotional baggage that “Colin” will have to carry.
After all, “all men are jerks”…
right?
You’re partly right dear lady- in the case of the 10% of men whose existence you actually acknowledged, some of whom you rewarded with sex.
Do you have a study demonstrating this? I feel that everyone takes it on faith that women like jerks, but even anecdotally this isn’t true.
Colin is a jerk- he doesn’t have to be and might not always be, but right now he’s choosing to be. He’s taking no responsibility for his self esteem issues and projecting them onto others. He thinks that he needs women to have self-esteem and objectifies them as providing self-esteem- this is, in my opinion, even more of a jerk move than the stereotypical jerk objectifying women as sex objects (at least that’s honest). He blames everyone around him for his problems and thinks that other people should fix them. This is a reasonable working definition of “jerk.”
However, you’ll notice that he isn’t successful with women. Nor is any actual jerk I’ve ever met. The few who are hot enough to get with women anyways end up unhappy because women didn’t magically solve all their problems, and they end up settling down with women with just as poor self-esteem as them.
Women like men who run their own lives and don’t want to use a woman as an emotional crutch. Every respectful, responsible man I know who likes women and takes control of their own life is now either living with or married to women who are awesome cool and crazy sexy, myself included. Stop blaming your problems on women, it ain’t them.
I wish there were a ‘like’ button on this site (sigh, internet addiction), as this is probably the most ‘real’ and logical comment I’ve heard on this thread, and it doesn’t put down either gender. I’ve noticed that men like the same thing in women. Being desperate and bitter doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Been there, done that, made me miserable–and I’m a very attractive woman. Self esteem is one of those advice staples that’s always easier said than done, but man, does it make a difference.
Thanks!
Colin is a jerk because he’s not a “natural” with women. That’s about what it adds up to.
From Colin’s self description, he sounds like an interesting person, steeped in the arts and well-educated.
One would think- now that we’re forty some years after the sexual revolution, that a woman-some woman- would use her empowerment to look over the shoulder of “Mr Natural at it” and go for the type they all SAY they want.
Nope.
The old “man risking rejection” paradym works as well as ever- feminist empowerment not withstanding.
To answer your question- no I didn’t do a study nor did I draw a conclusion from a study, but they do exist and my assertion rings true.
It must, since feminists rail against it…
and Emily took the time to write her “brother” about it.
Perhaps you should ask what study she is using as ger own basis, no?
Read my post again, Colin being a jerk is a choice he is making. I never said it’s because he isn’t good with women, it’s because he thinks he needs women to have slef-esteem and as a result doesn’t see women as people.
Education does not make someone a good person.
Actually, the whole point of women’s sexual empowerment is that they now like who they like. That doesn’t generally include whiny jerks. Now people who think that they know what’s “best” from women, and who they really “should” like (sense of entitlement much?).
Ah, the old Intelligent Design Argument, “just because I can’t prove it doesn’t mean it’s not true.”
Feminists rail against people who are manipulative and coercive assholes. These assholes are also extremely unlikely to have satisfying relationships or a lot of sex because people don’t like manipulative and coercive assholes who don’t take responsibility for themselves. Emily is writing because she cares about her brother.
Emily isn’t making any sweeping generalizations about an entire gender’s attractions. She’s saying “Lots of people have sex without being an asshole. Have sex. Don’t be an asshole.” I’m not sure why this is controversial. 90% of men have sex at least once a year (Kinsey Instititue) The overwhelming majority of men aren’t assholes. What part of this do you disagree with?
“Feminists rail against people who are manipulative and coercive assholes.”
Yet the women with the most choices-those most attractive- consistently reward such men (or men who pretend to be assholes) with sex.
You obviously don’t believe me. I suggest you reconcile your belief with the fact that feminist bloggers/leaders continually try to somehow ban instruction in PUA (or at least make such men social pariahs) or construct laws making any sex that may result “rape”.
Pretty strong measures in dealing with a problem that you say doesn’t exist.
I wish you were right Lee. I don’t think you are.
Just for the record-and not that anyone asked- I couldn’t be bothered in engaging with any sort of deception or coersion to get sex.
I’m too lazy and unimaginative, I guess.
Sooner or later even the dumbest blonde (sorry, I couldn’t resist) will figure out you’re a liar or tire of being coerced.
I doubt I could keep up the act for very long, and- like so many have already said- I’d rather have enthusiastic sex than merely consensual sex; and I get it.
“90% of men have sex at least once a year (Kinsey Instititue) The overwhelming majority of men aren’t assholes. What part of this do you disagree with?”
If a man is only getting sex once a year, that only means he’s got a lack of money rather than a lack of confidence, and I doubt that he regards himself as sexually successful just because he ejaculates into a woman on an annual basis.
Lee, let’s say you’re right that the men having the most sex are jerks. But the non-jerks can still have a reasonable, satisfying amount of sex. They’ll just maybe be sleeping with 20 women in college instead of 200. I think most men would be OK with that, and it doesn’t require them to be a jerk at all.
Colin is whiny, desperate and has low self esteem. I say that with compassion because it’s not his fault that he has issues, but it is his responsibility to change. Women don’t avoid him because he’s too nice, they avoid him because he’s needy, angry, self-absorbed and has no genuine interest in them.
I am very disappointed to read this second-to-last sentence. Boo.
@R.W. Thanks for having a clear head on this topic. Yes, being meek and timid is not going to get you the girl, nor is being a douchbag, dickhead or asshole. I think it is a elegant mixture of confidence, respect, vulnerability and humility that will ultimately win you the prize of a warm bed at night. Men can use their tools like manipulation techniques or passive aggressive power games, but at the end of the day, the men who use those tricks need to take a close look at themselves and ask if they are the man they want to be.
Oh. So men just need to transform themselves into the “elegant mixture” you describe to “win” “the prize”.
A. The idea that “the girl” is something you “get” is objectifying and misogynistic.
B. The idea that men need to cultivate and display personality traits women approve of in order to earn the privilege of sexual expression is misandrist and highly gender-normative.
So you bought the whole sales pitch about gender roles hook, line and sinker, huh?
The article is about gettig laid, and while no one has an obligation to display traits that other people approve of, you will generally find that you have more social success if you do. So I’m not sure why this comment upsets you so much. You do have to “earn” the “privilege” of sexual expression insofar as that means the privilege of having sex with people who are under no obligation to have sex with you. In other words, if you want to have sex with someone, you have to do something to get them to want to do it. That’s true of both men and women. You can’t expect to just go up to someone and demand sex because you feel you are entitled to it. So, yeah, it is something you earn. Women also have to “earn” it by being sexy, flirtatious, attractive etc.
I’m frustrated that some folks are still acting like sex is something to be “won” and that there are highly specific elements that will work all the time if you have them.
If you and another person are mutually vibing on each other, that’s all there is to it. You won’t vibe on everyone. I won’t vibe on everyone. It’s the ones where there is some level of a connection that matter, and it’s not about a particular formula.
Yet somehow when looking at the people that get laid the most, it is hard to not see that they share quite a lot of traits.
Statistically speaking, these are high self esteem and large numbers of interests.
“B. The idea that men need to cultivate and display personality traits women approve of in order to earn the privilege of sexual expression is misandrist and highly gender-normative.”
Spot on Morgan!
Morgan- here’s the thing, all animals on the planet and in the sea have some kind of courting etiquette to capture attention of the opposite sex. It is our biological nature to flaunt what we have. Women do it, men do it. I am not hating on men. I am suggesting that they use grace and vulnerability to entice a woman, because we need enticing. Women measure a man by what he can provide for her, both mentally and physically. It is rooted in our biology. Most men derive a great deal of satisfaction from being able to protect and provide, and most women derive a great deal of happiness from nurturing and nourishing. I did not create these rules but I sure do enjoy when a man demonstrates his “worth” to me. How else can you weed out the good ones from the bad? ( Again, I am not talking about material demonstrations, I could care less about that)
kind of silly… but yeah I was mostly nice and got laid a ton. Hey guys want a tip on getting laid? Be over 6 feet tall and in shape
So all the women just jumped on you. Because that is what we are debating here. You never initiated a kiss, never initiated sex? The woman initiated everything. Or in other words: Was it like an Axe commercial? Because if it wasn’t then you are a date rapist and a jerk. That is the feminist view.
Most men do not fit this criteria nor can they control how tall they are, this tip makes little sense.
Here’s a quick outline of how I met my current girlfriend.
We met at a poker game at a friend’s house. Had a fun chat, but she left before I could get her contact info.
Aggressive action: Set up my own poker game a few weeks later. I called up friend to get email list of people who might be interested in playing. After she didn’t respond to the general invite, I sent a second follow-up email and eventually was able to convince her to come.
She shows up to poker game:
Aggressive action: I immediately pulled up chair next to mine and asked her if she wanted to sit and talk. We talked about shared interests, and I made sure to mention some interesting things I had coming up in the next week. We eventually settled on a hiking meet-up.
She shows up to hike:
Aggressive action: Playfully grabbed at her hands, tickled her, playfully teased her when she tripped and almost fell into me. Little things, but she later said that doing this made it feel much more like a date with a potential suitor than a hike with a friend. We agree to an official date.
She shows up to date:
Aggressive action: We go to what turned out to be a pretty loud bar. I pulled her closer to me “so we could hear each other better,” played with and massaged her hands, and kissed her soon after she began reacting to positively to things I said, rather than waiting and hoping for something at the end of the night. We set another date for her place.
At her place:
Aggressive action: Over the next couple of dates, I would go to her place, make dinner, watch a movie, etc. When things started getting physical I’d push to the point of her resistance, stop, start doing something else, and then try again later. When we reached a point where it was clear that things weren’t going to progress any further, I put on my clothes, promised I’d call her to set up another date, then left. By the end of the second date at her place, we were having sex, and oh yeah… she was stone-cold sober when she made the decision to have sex with me.
Result:
I’m now seven months into a relationship with a 31-year-old self-avowed feminist who can count her number of past sexual partners on one hand. Prior to meeting me, she hadn’t had sex with a guy that she hadn’t known for at least a year. Now she regularly and enthusiastically initiates sex with me. When I showed her this article and my response, she said that she understood the basic premise, but that there are guys in her past who she knew were into her and probably would have had sex or a relationship with had they been more aggressive. When I asked about her experience with me, she said that she knew at the time that she wanted to have sex with me, but that she was afraid that I wouldn’t respect her if we moved forward that fast… not because of anything I’d done, but because she’d been brought up to believe that girls who have sex early in the relationship are “sluts.”
One of Merriam-Webster’s definitions for aggressive is: “strong or emphatic in effect or intent.” It’s just a mindset that asks, “How do I push this to the next level without waiting for it to come to me?” I think this is a demonstration of how to be aggressive without being coercive or manipulative and how to make opportunities happen for you instead of waiting for them to come along. Nothing I’ve said, done, or demonstrated here is coercive, manipulate, misogynistic, ignorant, or any of the other various adjectives that have been thrown my way.
I’m glad it worked out for you. But here’s the rub- you had no way of knowing, at the time, what was going through her head. The whole “When things started getting physical I’d push to the point of her resistance, stop, start doing something else, and then try again later” thing is a primary pattern for relationship sexual assault- just keep pushing till she gives way, never once talking about it (or did you leave that part out? It seems pretty important). Your train of thought was also the exact same as the standard rape defense, “I didn’t need to ask, I just knew.”
That’s the thing with communication. You could be stepping way over people’s boundaries and if you’re not willing to openly discuss it, then you’re at fault. Why was it that you didn’t know why she didn’t want to have sex early on until some time later? That seems like a relevant question for you to have asked when met “resistance” rather than walking out the door and promising to call.
You seem to have a very condescending attitude towards these women you know. All the sexual encounters you’ve described have this element where the woman’s sexuality is just dying to get out, and you have to be aggressive and repeatedly try to do her to overcome those actions of hers that say otherwise, all the while not communicating about any of it until well after the fact. You seem to see women as fundamentally incapable of knowing and communicating their own boundaries, they’re always just so repressed and need your constant pressure to know what they want. And seeing how you say you’ve never had enthusiastic consent on the first time, I’d have to say you appear to seek out woman who have these boundaries just for the fun of prodding them until they fall down.
The great thing about enthusiastic consent is that it’s about when your partner says that they’re ready, not when they give in to you after constantly pushing up against “resistance.” It doesn’t matter whether she’s worried about her reputation or just doesn’t want to have sex, those are her reasons and she has a right to them. Learn the reasons, stop pushing boundaries and have sex when she can enthusiastically consent. I’m not sure why this is a controversial idea: ask the woman when she wants to have sex, then have no-pressure sex when she’s actually feeling psyched about it! What’s wrong with that as a model?
Wow… clearly I’m fighting an uphill battle here. Really, what is it with feminists and all the shaming language, accusations of sexual assault, and personal attacks? Is there no other way to make a reasoned argument? This is my fourth time posting here, and not once have I directed my argument at a specific person [that streak will end here] or made a denigrating remark… yet, after each comment I’ve made, in comes some hero screaming “well you must be coercive, manipulative, misogynistic, a jerk, etc., etc.”
I’ve already said it twice before, but I’ll say it again, since it’s clear that it’s not sinking in… Whenever I feel like I’ve reached a woman’s boundary, I STOP! If I touch her in a certain way, and she grabs my hand and moves it somewhere else, I stop. If she says, “No,” “Not yet,” or “I don’t think I’m ready for this yet,” I stop. If she does anything but give me an obvious green light that it’s okay to proceed, I stop, and direct my attention to something else. Body language, “resistance,” talking and listening… if this isn’t communication, then what is? This isn’t me saying, “I just knew.” This is me paying attention to and reacting to what the woman is telling me. And “something else” is just that… something else. In the past I’ve played board games, video games, grabbed a drink, watched a movie, cuddled with the girl, talked, gone to sleep… whatever. Whatever it is I feel like doing that’s not sex. Most times, after doing something else for a while, the girl re-initiates physical contact with me… not the other way around. Yet you’re still here implying that I’m pressuring girls into sex, and practically assaulting them. What’s your deal?
Honestly, you simply can’t judge my attitude or character from a handful of internet posts. I just spent the last three hours out drinking and dancing with two of the girls that I’ve hooked up with in the past. If I was a borderline rapist, I don’t think they’d be jumping at the chance to go out with me again. Do you?
You need to grow up a little more. The world isn’t nearly as black and white as you think it is. The women I’ve dated this year are professionals in their late 20s and early 30s. They know where their boundaries are, and they’re assertive enough to let me know when I’ve hit them. 90% of the time I don’t. If anything, I have a reputation within my social group of being too laid back, and not being aggressive enough. I know a lot of guys that are aggressive, but they’re aggressive in a way that isn’t particularly effective in leading them towards sex and relationships. I still get laid more than most other guys I know because I present myself as a sexual person who knows how to navigate the sexual landscape without coming off as being too pushy, needy, cocky, or insecure. I love and respect women. I wouldn’t be able to have the kind of ongoing relationships with them that I have if I didn’t. But I also realize that no girl that I haven’t had sex with is going to just call me up and say, “Hey I’m horny… why don’t you come over and ‘jump my bones’ tonight.” Sure, after I’ve had sex with her a few times (and sometimes it only takes one time) she may say that… but not right at the beginning she won’t. If I want to get laid, even if only occasionally, it’s going to take some effort on my part. If I want to get laid a lot, then it’s going to take A LOT of effort. Them’s the breaks.
Have you told your girlfriend your opinion on feminists like her? Does she, also a feminist, always resort to shaming language?
I didn’t accuse you of sexual assault, it’s just that if you were pressuring her into sex and she felt obligated to sleep with you, as is the case for many cases on non-enthusaistic sexual assault.
You haven’t said anything about talking and listening. In fact, you’ve cut her agency out of your whole story. It wasn’t that she asked you to stop, you “encountered resistance,” much like an invading army. Maybe you changed this because then your story doesn’t seem as bad. Essentially you initiated sex until you forced her to tell you to stop, rather than asking straight up how she far she wanted to go that night. Then you waited an hour and tried again, as if she’d feel more comfortable after an hour of watching a movie. Then you did it again. And again, over several dates, never once asking her what level of physicality she was comfortable with. Every time, you pushed until she had to stop you, then totalluy disrespected that by pushing an hour later. On the first date, when it became clear that it wasn’t going further, you immediately put on your clothes and left. Nothing coercive or manipulative in there at all.
I didn’t ask for details of your personal life. You started by saying that enthusiastic consent is not something that men should wait for beause you’ve never had it, then continue to give me stories of pressuring women into having sex before they’re comfortable, because these boundaries are socially ingrained and thus not valid. This is all I know about you, that you pressure women into having sex and never wait for them to be excited about it. If you use your personal life to make a point, people arguing against that point only have your personal life as a reference.
It’s very true that it isn’t black and white. Pressuring women into sex by trying every hour for a few days isn’t always rape, but it’s sure a lot closer to rape than I think people in general are comfortable with. It’s because everything isn’t black and white that it’s important to wait for full, enthusiastic consent.
Ah, how your story changes. Does your current girlfriend know how you spent that last few hours? For such a sexually conservative woman, you seem to have an awfully open relationship. And seeing as you apparently pick exclusively insecure and unassertive woman and then pressure them into sex (again, this is the only information you’ve given me about yourself), I think it’s extremely likely that they would spend time with you again.
To bring it full circle, you argue against enthusiastic consent with “If I want to get laid, even if only occasionally, it’s going to take some effort on my part. If I want to get laid a lot, then it’s going to take A LOT of effort.” So, by effort, you mean moving aggressively enough to have sex with women before they consent enthusiastically. And you think this is the only way you can have sex a lot. And you think it’s strange that I think you should respect yourself, and others, more.
Wow, my second paragraph got bungled somehow, sorry. I meant that some sexual assault does follow that pattern, and without asking her straight up what her level of comfort was, how did you know she wasn’t feeling pressured or obligated into it? She might not have been, but you would have had no way of knowing that until after the fact.
Likening “meeting resistance” to that of an invading army is your interpretation. I too would have liked for DD to be more clear on what that meant for him, but you jumped ahead and made your own conclusions. If I was to do the same, I’d say you probably made up your mind about DD already by the time you’d read his first post.
It seems it’s all semantics with you, Lee. Of course, with your fancy human sexuality course, you’ve got the lingo down. You could win any argument even if you’re wrong. And, yeah, you’re wrong to attack DD the way you have, Lee. You’ve no interest in understanding where DD is coming from. This is just an exercise in domination for you.
Asshole.
DD,
I think what you outlined sounds like a reasonable set of things to do in building a dating relationship with a particular kind of person.
I wonder if she sees the history of your relationship the same way. Unless she tells you what exactly made the difference, you won’t really know what made the difference. I know when courtin’ my wife I did a lot of things to get her to like me and build on the attraction. Based on what she told me later, a lot of those things didn’t make much difference, and some of the things I wasn’t even aware of are the ones that made the biggest impact. What you remember as ‘what worked’ may be totally different from what really ‘worked.’
There may be a classic post hoc fallacy here. “I did X, Y, and Z, and then she had sex with me, so it must have been the X, Y, and Z that did the trick.”
Just wanted to post a comment and say that as a guy, I’ve always felt like you do on the subject, and I’m glad someone else is fighting the good fight.
Wow, here we go again. First of all, I don’t understand why so many commenters on this site can’t wrap their heads around the fact that sex feels really f***ing good for women too. I’ve had sex with a few guys on the ‘jerky’ side, but mostly I’ve done it with very decent, good guys. It’s not black and white, either. Very few guys are straight up jerk or straight up saint. I’ve fallen for guys both sides of the spectrum, and gotten bored of guys on both sides. Every time an article related to sex is written, posters just assume that every time a woman has sex, it’s because she was manipulated and it never stops being condescending. I have sex because a hard, warm penis feels good in my vagina. I have sex because I like the taste of my partner’s…you know. I have sex because I love the warmth of a man’s body on mine. I have sex because I’m bored. I have sex because I’m tipsy and hyper. I have sex to please my partner when he’s horny and would even if I didn’t know he’d reward me for it later with orgasms. I have sex because…love and stuff.
Not every sexual encounter is meant to be a relationship, but sex can be better when there’s a connection and it’s great to be with someone who knows and appreciates your body. I’m not ‘giving’ ANYTHING up when I enjoy sex. I’m getting pleasure and he’s getting pleasure. It’s that simple. When a penis enters my vagina, it has no bearing on who I am as a person in the rest of my life other than taking some time out of my day. For the past 2 years, I’ve been in a monogamous relationship with a very nice guy. No, not a bitter, desperate, misogynistic ‘nice guy’™, just a good guy who’s there for me when I’m stressed, walks the dog when I can’t, laughs at my stupid jokes, calls me out when I’m crazy, but accepts my apology afterwards, and lets me know that he loves me.
That’s a real nice guy. A ‘nice guy’™seems to think that he’s God’s gift to women just because he doesn’t abuse, insult, rape, or manipulate women. I’d take someone who’s a bit of an asshole over that self-righteous attitude any day. The guys that women do have sex with aren’t some mythical jerk monsters—they have a range of attitudes, qualities, and that make them able to get what they want, whether it’s a one night stand or a committed relationship. Some of them might be dicks, it happens, but most of them are just men who have something that women find attractive.
A lot of the commentators on this site also seem to think that women only ever have sex because (1) they were manipulated, coerced, or raped and (2) they want to ‘rope’ a man into a relationship and…you know, babies (3) they want to take all of the man’s money, then marry him and screw him over by taking even more of his money. I enjoy sex and being coerced into a situation where I have to have it sounds sort of illegal to me. I pay for or split the bill on the VAST majority of my dates, as do most of the girls I know. I work, my partner doesn’t. I have no interest or using an innocent child’s life for financial gain or to artificially keep a guy around. And I’m far from celibate. Go figure.
Totally agree! I often find myself reminding male friends that women get really f*cking horny too. We have the same amount of fantasy, desires and lusts as men. I fully appreciate men who defend women’s rights and fight the trivialization of sexual violence against women but do also find that in the process we are portrayed as less sexual. This in fact empowers men in a damaging way- it makes us seem like passive recepticles – if men knew how deeply we lust for satisfying sex and how much we enjoy it they might actually feel threatened that they are not fulfulling these desires. Often when I talk to my male friends or friends of my husbands about sex I practically get high fives for ‘talking like a guy’ . What is that about?? I think that the problem could partly lie with women. We need to be much more explicit about sex, to get female porn directors to create images that we want to see- basically we need to get more vocal about sex to dispell the myth that men want more sex and better sex.
No woman goes specifically after jerks—that would make no logical sense. What does make sense is human nature. People, especially when young and just discovering sex and romance, enjoy the chase and love a challenge. You don’t think I was annoyed in high school when all the guys went after the cheerleaders despite knowing that I was prettier, smarter, and in my naïve head, more capable of loyalty than all of them? Guys do the same thing—they also go after the girls who others want and are considered desirable by the majority. The more you’re wanted…the more you’re wanted (you can artificially inflate how you’re wanted by pretending you don’t care, which is fine if you’re looking for casual sex, but rings shallow if you’re looking for a relationship). I thought those women were bitches and when I saw them breaking a crush of mine’s heart, I got angry and didn’t understand why he put up with it and didn’t want me. It happens on both ends and there’s no use taking it out on the other gender. It’s human nature, and some people grow out of it and see past it, some don’t.
If a woman is naïve enough to fall for PUA tricks, she’s probably not ready for a relationship anyways. Hopefully the PUA was a good lay for her and hopefully she’ll find a good man or woman to share her life with once she’s ready. The only reason I could see sleeping with someone who uses the very obvious PUA techniques is if you’re not interested in a relationship and see PUA techniques as telltale signs of someone who’s interested in a night/week stand without too many strings or drama.
Just to put it out there–I’ve also never in my life had a guy who isn’t crazy or homeless outright say that he wanted to come over and jump my bones. Our society requires both men and women to be more subtle. Men, because they’re afraid to come off as creepazoids or wannabe rapists, and women because they’re afraid to be forever labeled as sluts and whores. The brave and confident out there can get past that or decide to work to change these stereotypes. I’m sorry that more women don’t initiate to a lot of guys on this forum. I really am. The myth that all women never want sex (unless they’re manipulated or for money) and all men want sex no matter what with everyone ever might contribute to that. The fear of rejection is bad enough, but when you add into it the fear of “Omg, he refused your advances. Men want to have sex with anything that moves, so you must be a hideous person, and a slut to boot!”—it just gets more difficult. That being said, I just had a woman approach me aggressively and ask me out a couple of days ago, so it does happen. I’ve initiated sex in the past, although it was very difficult to do so at first, out of shyness and fear. I’ve also seen plenty of girls throw themselves all over guys.
Additionally, despite being a feminist (whatever that means today), I also don’t agree with the “enthusiastic consent” thing. Although ‘enthusiasm’ is preferred, having bad, bored, or drunk sex does not make either party a rapist.
(sorry for the essay)
“That being said, I just had a woman approach me aggressively and ask me out a couple of days ago, so it does happen”
Are you a woman or a man? I”ve only ever once had a women be sexually aggressive with me .
I’m a woman, but I’ve also had to initiate. I initiated my first sexual encounter with my current partner. It’s had more to do with experience level and individual confidence than gender, for a lot of it. I’ve dated a couple of guys who’ve told me that their first girlfriends were the ones to initiate sex because they were just more confident by nature or the guys were the ones who were virgins. Yet, I do agree that women, especially in more conservative situations, don’t initiate and let their desires be known as much as they should. I certainly couldn’t do it for a long time. That’s on me, mostly, but the culture around how women should behave certainly didn’t help. I’d like to think that I’m over it.
To clarify my point, I never said that a lack of enthusiastic consent makes one a rapist. However, it is often a sign that people are pressured into having sex. Especially for the first time, I think it’s important to err on the side of respect and wait for a time when you’re both actually into it. I think it shows respect for yourself and others to wait until both parties are excited.
In the case of DD, having NEVER had enthusiastic consent for the first time with 25 different women is a huge red flag.
“Bad bored or drunk sex” is not what the author is talking about. She’s specifically warning about the subtler types of coercion that are so prevalent that we may not even think of them as coercion – targeting a drunk girl because she’s drunk (not just having sex while you’re drunk, the target is the key bit here); gently talking a girl into having sex; implying that if she doesn’t have sex with you it’s because she’s a prude (and this is a big one, because we exist in a cultural context which insists that women’s true worth and power is in their sexuality). How can we not all agree that “no means no” is not enough; it must be “yes means yes”? Don’t coerce or bully women into having sex with you, no matter how gently. Easy.
I’m sorry for putting words into your mouth, I didn’t actually mean to do that. I had just written 3 very long comments and sort of stuck that in at the end. I’m a huge fan of safe/honest/consenting adults/whatever floats your boat movement when it comes to sex. Sometimes the ‘no means no’ thing gets taken too far, though, and I feel like it alienates a lot of guys from feminism in general. A lot of it has to do with the word ‘enthusiastic’ being thrown around when talking about rape. DD’s dilemma is certainly weird. Does he go after women who don’t find him attractive? Does he not know how to recognize enthusiasm? Does he live in a situation where women are discouraged from liking sex? Is he really THAT unlucky, or is there something wrong with what HE’S doing? Not all of my yeses have been super crazy enthusiastic, but most have. 0 out of 25 women–those are some bizarre odds.
No problem! I’m also in forum fight mode and probably came off a little defensive.
I am a bigger fan of “Yes means yes!” as a movement. I would probably disagree with you on the alienation, I personally think that guys who get alienated from feminism because of consent issues weren’t exactly likely to sympathize with feminism’s goals in the first place. But yeah, agree to disagree.
I started typing my take on DD again, but hey, I’ve harped enough on the guy. I think the reasons for his 0 in 25 are pretty clear in his own posts.
I realize I am writing this comment kind of late in the discussion, but I have been thinking a lot about this topic, and trying to decide how to respond to a couple of the earlier comments I posted.
So how do you get laid without being a jerk?
I truly believe you do not need to be a jerk to get laid. But there is one huge factor that’s missing from a lot of the above discussion about jerks vs. nice guys, enthusiastic vs. ambivalent consent, confidence vs. timidity etc.
You will get laid if you give women the idea that having sex with you will be FUN. Hardly anyone here has mentioned that sex is, above all else, FUN, and that women want sex to be fun. Especially if they are in the mood to have a casual hookup, with all the risks that entails, they are thinking, I damn well better have a good time. I’m not talking about fancy techniques here, mind you. I’m talking about the spirit of it.
Some guys give off a vibe that sex with them will probably be awkward and serious. It’s not about being too nice or whatever. It’s awkwardness. That’s not what a woman wants to feel when she contemplates a hookup. Other guys give off a vibe that makes women think that sex with them will be fun and exciting. I would argue that many PUA techniques, like light-hearted teasing (“negging”), work NOT because they rip up a woman’s self-esteem but because humor relieves that awkward tension and nervousness that often arises in social situations, makes her laugh and makes her feel like it would be fun to have a spontaneous sexual escapade with this guy. Unfortunately, sometimes guys who are “jerks” are also pretty fun to be around.
I have a co-worker who gets tons of women. He attracts flocks of women wherever he goes. It’s almost ridiculous how easy it is for him, and he’s not even particularly good looking. Although he works out and he’s in good shape, he’s also balding, in his 40′s and he has a big nose. His success with women has nothing to do with being a jerk. He treats women in an almost old-fashioned way, always opening doors and so on. He’s extremely respectful and kind toward women. He shows a lot of personal interest, remembers personal details, asks you about your family. The key, though, is that he’s also constantly being a big tease in a way that is light and funny. Women fall all over him — I would be very tempted to sleep with him myself, except that we work together and I’m in a relationship.
So rather than telling guys “be confident” I would say, “figure out what you are doing that comes across as nervous and awkward and change those things”.
Way to twist the meaning of this conversation all out of whack.
My original post was in response to the Emily Heist Moss assertion that a guy shouldn’t proceed forward with sex with the girl for the FIRST time until he got a “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” from a girl. In my response I assumed that people would understand that when I said that the strongest verbal affirmation that I’ve ever got from a girl was “Sure [it's okay to proceed],” that they would understand that I was specifically talking about the FIRST time you have sex with someone… a point I clarified in a later post. I never once said that the ONLY way to get sex was to aggressively pressure a girl into it, or anything to that effect. In fact, if you read what I actually wrote (and not Lee’s strawman response), you’d recognize that I’ve never pressured a girl into anything. Pressuring a girl would mean hitting a girl’s boundaries and immediately trying to push past it. I’ve always maintained that when a woman lets me know she’s not comfortable proceeding, I STOP, and move on to something else, until one of us re-initiates physical contact. That re-initiation may not even happen on the same night. This leaves the woman if a clear choice. She can continue with the physical contact at a later point (which happens quite often) or she can decide not to without fear of harm or pressure. There have been times in the past where a girl has been in my bed, mulling over a decision of whether or not she wants to continue moving things forward, and we didn’t because she wanted something from me that I wasn’t willing to give her (she wanted a boyfriend, I had just come out of a five year commitment and wasn’t willing to jump that quickly into a new relationship). If I were being coercive or manipulative, I could have easily lied and had sex with her. But why would I do that if I knew that she’d be happier moving on to someone who was more interested in a relationship than I was?
Earlier, I highlighted ONE example of how I moved a relationship forward to sex without the “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” that Emily mentioned in her article and how it ultimately lead to what has so far been a very satisfying relationship. There are many other ways to get to “YES!” I’ve had girls walk into my room in the middle of a house party and start taking off their clothes… there have been plenty that just reached down and start unbuttoning my pants or taking off my shirts. None of those instances began with me sitting down and talking about whether or not we were going to have sex beforehand. None of those times began with the women giving me an “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “YES!” And for that matter, none of them began with me giving that “YES!” either (if we’re going to be truly egalitarian, we might as well hold women to the same standard, right? Or are guys the only ones who be jerks in this realm?).
My original point, and one that I still maintain, is that most sexual relationships don’t begin with neat little conversations about sexual boundaries (as Lee adamantly maintains they should) or with women giving an “enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” when asked about sex. As another commenter posted, “Our society requires both men and women to be more subtle.” Articles like these do a massive disservice to both men and women if we’re telling the “good men” of GMP that they need to aspire to such an exceptionally lofty standard, without first saying that to get to the point often means going out, meeting lots of women, asking them out on dates, and putting yourself in a position where sex and intimacy between the two of you is a real possibility… in other words, being more aggressive. And even after doing all that, you should still know that sometimes a woman will pursue a sexual relationship with you without you first sitting down and having a conversation about it. Sometimes opportunities do just fall into your lap, but as many male members of this board have already confessed, you can spend a lifetime waiting on those opportunities and getting nothing in return. Sometimes you have to ACT first. I think GMP would be a better site if it focused more on getting men to ACT and take control of their dating lives, in a way that’s respectful to women, without putting them on the defensive with articles like this, the anti-PUA articles, and the “Accidental Rapist” essay, and many other articles like these that litter the site.
First of all–at least from what I’ve read–a very small part of this site is meant to tell guys how to get with women. I never got the impression that that is the purpose of ‘Good Men Project’. I thought it was more about discussing misogyny, misandry, racism, perspectives from the LGBTQA community, problems with gender roles in society, etc. It’s also about encouraging men and women and to understand the context in which they interact and do the best they can to represent their gender well.
I completely agree with you on the idea that ‘enthusiastic’ consent is often stretched too far. What’s an enthusiastic response for one person might come off as mild acceptance for another. I can’t see any practical way of measuring enthusiasm, especially when it comes to dating and sex, both of which are plagued with societal and cultural boundaries. I hope no one here is actually advocating having to sit down with every potential partner and writing out some contract. It’s not practical and quite frankly, that would seriously take away from the passion and romance of the moment.
I usually love Hugo’s writing, but I think the “Accidental Rapist” article took it a bit far. If what his role in that situation makes him a rapist, then I’m a rapist, as are a lot of the guys with whom I’ve had sex. I’ve had sex in situations where I didn’t completely feel like it, had my mind elsewhere, or would rather be doing something/someone else. I don’t think that those situations had nearly as serious and devastating an effect on me as a rape does on a victim. It’s important to recognize the difference, whether we’re talking about an alley rape or a date rape. I still applaud him for being sensitive to Katie’s problems and for admitting that there was something wrong with the arrangement.
I also can’t be against an article that says PUA advice is pretty dumb and that you shouldn’t have to resort to manipulation or pretending to be manipulated to be able to have sex. I can smell PUA techniques from a mile away. Looking back at before I was familiar with the PUA strategy, I remember guys trying to use it on me and my friends. They were usually guys who had a very insecure and hateful ‘vibe’ (I hate using the word, but I don’t really have a concrete way to describe the feeling), and artificially made themselves act like confident assholes. You could just tell. Their fake insults just made me feel uncomfortable and they didn’t seem like they’d be any fun to get to know better. The techniques obviously work on some girls, but it doesn’t make you a ‘good man’ to have to resort to them, nor does it make you a good woman to not be able to see past it unless you’re just looking for an easy bang.
DD – wanted to say that I totally agree with you. Lee’s arguments, while technically true in an academic context, do not hold weight in reality. Just in terms of the odds, most women DO in fact expect men to make the first move early on in the relationship. While there will be the odd woman who will give a huge enthusiastic YES after a nice sit down discussion on whether or not to have sex for the first time, most women respond to non-verbal communication and give their consent through less vocal, though just as agreeable, channels of communication. This is not to say that after the first time, women are not straightforward – in fact, in my experience, women generally become very vocal and forthcoming about having sex after the first time, but that’s the catch – AFTER the first time. Before, like it or not, the reality is that men are expected to make the moves leading to intimacy.
I don’t get why women on here are calling me a jerk. I don’t do anything that makes me a jerk. I can’t comprehend how being not great with women makes me a jerk, because numerous people have said that. “If you’re awkward, or don’t have a lot or self esteem, etc, you are a jerk.” How?
As for me not actually being nice, how would you know? Is it nice to hold open doors? Is it nice to without fail offer/try to pay? Is it nice to be polite? Is it nice to do little random acts of kindness that has nothing to do with sex or anything else (helping mothers with strollers getting up and down the subway steps, asking confused tourists if they need some help, etc)? I am not a jerk who thinks that nice is not hitting or degrading a woman; I am a genuinely nice person. I always want the people I am with to have a good time, and I will ask them, if it appears they are not enjoying themselves, if they would like to do/eat/drink/whatever something else.
I hear both women and men talking about teasing women and being playful. How is teasing nice? I don’t know how to “playfully” tease, mostly because I was relentlessly picked on as a child, so I don’t find teasing very fun or playful.
Am I a bit whiny on here? Yes. Do I think it is incredibly unfair that I have been involuntarily celibate because I’ve tried extremely hard to be the kind of man that women claim to want? Yes.
I especially love the “just have confidence.” If I had confidence, I wouldn’t have confidence problems. Success with women breeds confidence, and a noted lack of success with women hurts confidence. I can’t just magically be confidence, and no one ever tells someone how to have confidence.
As for being desperate, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that if I can’t make progress with women — and very soon — my chances at ever having a fulfilling relationship get close to zero. How many women in their early 20′s really want to be with a man who has only kissed a couple of times? Being awkward and new at things is acceptable as a teenager, but it isn’t so acceptable in your 20′s.
Instead of actionable advice that can help me excite women, attract women, and be interesting to women, I get insulted, called a creep, called a jerk, etc, and get advice like “have confidence.” I haven’t gone the PUA route because it honestly makes my stomach turn, and the negging, teasing, backhanded things, etc just aren’t me. But I haven’t had any success being nice, considerate, and eager to make the other person happy.
The missing ingredient from all the advice above is showing clear intent. The meat market (crowded bars & clubs, etc), lends itself to the PUA approach (sux, I could never be a PUA either), but the PUA approach pretty much only works in the meat market.
How to get laid is a 2 stage process, 1) keep doing what your doing in order to establish a comfortable relationship with new women, get to the point where she is comfortable interacting with you (it sounds like you know how to do that already, that part is simple if your not a jerk which it sounds like you aren’t
) 2) and this is the hard part, show direct intent. Anybody telling you asking a woman (yo so you wanna head back to my place for a movie and some wine or somthin? because I think your a rly great person) is “easy” is LYING TO YOU. It’s awkward every time you do it but it’s honest, and unambiguous. frankly if she isn’t enough of an adult to give you a clear yes or no without telling you your a “jerk” for asking then she’s not grown up enough to be having sex in the first place.
The thing nobody tells you about not being a jerk is that showing clear intent ISN’T being a jerk and the woman who say it is are either immature or not feminist enough to take responsibility for their own sexuality, and you don’t WANT a chick like that, those are the girls that actually DO all the stuff MRA’s love to complain about when they talk about the “typical woman”.
Once you find one that’s said yes it’s a pretty no brainier, yea it feels real strange when your sitting next to her on your couch and your not sure if she wants you to make a joke about the movie or kiss her but ya know, you’ll figure that part out, sex is the one thing people have been doing since there have been people on this planet and id venture to say most of that sex wasn’t rape.
and for the love of god don’t let people like lee tell you your an irresponsible creep for not getting laid as much as you want, he’s just rly arrogant and thinks all the factors to getting laid are clear to every guy and if you don’t get it you must be trying not to. The real confidence killer is guys like him who use their own sexual experience to bully people instead of help them.
gl man.
Random Stranger says:
those are the girls that actually DO all the stuff MRA’s love to complain about when they talk about the “typical woman”.
I don’t believe your statement is an accurate assessment of the MRM.
There is a small spinoff section concerned about dating, but the largest men’s rights organizations (like hisside.com, fathersandfamilies.org and Natl Coalition for Men) advocate for full equal parental rights for men, and greater health care for men and other important issues.
“Instead of actionable advice that can help me excite women, attract women, and be interesting to women, I get insulted, called a creep, called a jerk, etc, and get advice like “have confidence.” ”
Ignore the comment above. Most women are not feminists. And most feminists lie about being sexually assertive. You can talk to women about sex. You can flirt with them. Ask them their fantasies. But your going to be fully responsible for sex and you will have to do the initiating. PERIOD. She will not make a move and if you ask her you might get a yes or maybe silence. But silence doesn’t mean she doesn’t want it. She expects you to show interest in her not the other way around. You are chasing her. Just like the animal kingdom. Women don’t want you to ask for sex they expect you to lead them towards it. This is how women work. Even most of the feminist ones.
I don’t want to tread into dangerous territory by saying that women ‘just want it’ or are ‘asking for it’, but you do have a good point. As I’ve said, I initiated first sex with my current partner, but I was drunk, extremely interested in him, and really, really horny. What can we do to get women to initiate more? Can we get rid of the myth that women don’t want/shouldn’t want sex? That they’re ‘giving’ something away when they enjoy penis? That the only reason they do it is to rope/keep/drain financially a guy? When you’re at home using a vibrator and fantasizing, at least you won’t be doing the ‘walk of shame’ (I’d rather it be called the ‘Walk of Singing Lonely Island’s I Just Had Sex!’) the next morning. Or be told you’re ‘cheap’ because you paid for the date instead of the guy, or because you don’t care if he marries you or not.
We might still be a part of the animal kingdom, but we have the ability to think and reason. If we can fly across the Atlantic in several hours, we can certainly teach women that it’s OK to express their desires. I might feel assertive, but I’m guilty of not verbally expressing my desires as much as I should. When it comes to my partner, I usually just start making out with him, sitting in his lap, and groping. Even though he fancies himself a feminist, he’s still better at outright saying “I want to have sex now” than I am. I’ll work to change that. I certainly couldn’t have done it at 17, when I desperately wanted to initiate sex, but felt I’d just be bad at it or suddenly turn into some super-whore. I still find it hard in my mid-20s, but at least I’m aware now. If a guy rejects me, it’s not the end of the world, and if I get labeled, the people who do it aren’t worth my time anways.
I’m in my 40′s, and I STILL find it hard to just say to my partner, “let’s have sex now” or “I want sex!”. Even when I’m super horny. It is stupid but it’s hard to overcome those inhibitions. I’m more willing to initiate than I was in my 20′s but When I do, I still feel kind of embarrassed and worry that he will think less of me for being too aggressive. Sigh.
Try a dating coach. Google them. They’re not about pick-up tricks, just figuring out how to present yourself.
“id venture to say most of that sex wasn’t rape.”
Yes it was if the definition of rape is anything that doesn’t include enthusiastic consent. Animals don’t have language so all animal sex is rape (with the exception of fish perhaps). And humans spent half of their history without language so at that time all sex was rape. The new feminist definition of rape requires language. So rape is the rule. Sex is the exception. Consensual sex is a rare thing indeed if you accept feminist definitions.
This is only really advice for picking up feminist women. Doing that will generally lead to every discussion you have turning into an argument, as feminist women will pick over everything you say and deny that you have any right to an opinion that differs from their own (google the term ‘mansplaining’ if you have any doubt of this. It’s a term they made up that basically mean ‘you have no right to disagree with me or explain how you view things because PENIS!).
Ignore this and find someone who doesn’t think every man is a potential rapist, and who isn’t a festering pustule of anger towards the gender of which you are not a part. I’ve been reading these folks for years, and while some of them are in it to achieve equality and right injustices, most of them are just in it because five years ago, some psycho raped them or a guy cheated on them.
I consider myself a feminist, and I love men (most of them, at least). I think penises are great. Most of my friends are guys because I tend to get along better with men. I’ve seen a few hopeless seeming cases like Colin’s where they feel entitled to regular sex just because they act like some romantic comedy from the 90s told them to. I’ve had guy friends tell me that they wish they could ‘become’ jerks so that they could get the girl of their dreams (without bothering to look into less ‘popular’ ones). I know this won’t work but I know what they’re doing isn’t either. I’m not an advice columnist, so I’m at a loss other than saying to stop acting so desperate, bitter, or self-loathing. I hope he does find someone. I bet when he gets one girl, the 2nd will be easier, and so on. It’s that first hurdle that’s the hardest.
The vast, vast majority of men are not potential rapists. Rational feminists know that very well. That’s why we’re so against men telling women to cover up, whether it’s a law requiring burquas, or calling women who wear skirts ‘sluts’. By doing that, you’re saying that all men rape at the sheer sight of an extra piece of skin. That’s not true, even a little bit. The only people who might think that all men are rapists are rapists trying to excuse their own actions.
Why not do an article on how women can act like ‘jerks’ when approaching man? Typical feminist inspired article. Man bad, woman good. Demonize men and victimize women.
We all know women are never manipulative. Worry less about men and examine your own behavior. In stead of trying to change us, why not focus on ways you can improve yourself. Unless of coarse you feel you’ve reached the pinnacle of perfection. I shouldn’t be surprised, feminism was never about accountability,
“The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.”
It’s ‘of course,’ not ‘of coarse.’ I too get annoyed when articles on this site say things like “men have an animalistic instinct to have sex”, without mentioning that most women do as well (we really do). This site focuses on mentioning men, for better or for worse, because it’s called the Good Men Project. Women can certainly act in ways that are not ‘good’ and very manipulative. I don’t think that this article or any of commenters are trying to prove otherwise.
Feminism is not about saying that women are always good people just because they don’t have penises—it’s just about making sure that women around the world have the same earning potential as men if they chose to take it, are allowed to express their sexual desires without punishment, and are able to avoid false gender and racial stereotypes (this goes for trans women as well).
Masculinity is great. Femininity is great, as is everything in between. Just make sure that it’s your personal choice. Men can be good caretakers, women can be good leaders. Women who chose to stay at home and take care of the house and their children are perfectly justified in doing so—so are men who chose to do the same thing and the ones who chose to pursue a ‘manly’ career. Most men are not rapists, and most women are not victims. It’s important, though, to support the men and women who have been victims of abuse and sexual violence.
One of the most common ways we know a particular man is an asshole is the way he mistreats the women who have slept with him. It is one of the most obvious ways in which assholes reveal themselves. And yet these guys seem to have cycles in which they do this over and over to woman after woman, and sometimes the same woman returns again. And usually there is some evidence of his true nature but he manages to find a willing sex partner anyway. So, male observers may naturally feel a little confused by this. (I would hope many women would be confused by this as well.)
Being an obnoxious jerk is not a great strategy to choose, but apparently if the goal is simply to get laid, it is not always a deal-breaker either.
Unfortunately, a lot of guys who others consider jerks just happen to be more fun to be around. What’s obnoxious to me is a guy forging a frienship with me without making his usually transparent anyways intentions clear, who tells me that my boyfriend is a jerk without any evidence but a few passing complaints or observations, whines to me about some girl he put on a pedestal, and who has his only sexual knowledge and experience from porn. I’d rather be with someone who’s honest and confident about sleeping with other girls, than with someone who I know would be so thrilled by any female attention that he jumps at every chance and dishonestly humiliates me..
“Unfortunately, a lot of guys who others consider jerks just happen to be more fun to be around. ”
Yes, this seems to be the general reality of things. Telling cruel and demeaning jokes about other men, that is called charm and joy of life.
Showing up to an engineering conference only talking about drunken adventures to hide you have nothing else to talk about and feel intellectually out gunned that is called social grace.
“. I’d rather be with someone who’s honest and confident about sleeping with other girls, than with someone who I know would be so thrilled by any female attention that he jumps at every chance and dishonestly humiliates me..”
Yes, so you like a winner, tell me something we don’t all ready know.
What I find more and more amusing is that every woman feminist or not, bleeding heart liberal or not they all seem to agree that the meat market should be modeled after a market model that would make even Ayn Rand talk about going to far in deregulation.
You bring up a good point” 8 of 10. To me, the ability/right to eat and have basic healthcare (even when you’re old and unable to work) trumps the ability/right to find a ‘soulmate’ or get regular sex from someone who looks like Jeri Ryan and takes it up the butt (it’s an exaggeration, but I couldn’t help a 7 of 9 reference, given your name). Even a liberal person would tell you that you can’t get a job by sitting your ass all day and hoping it will come to you, only going for jobs for which you’re grossly unqualified, showing up at interviews without showering and dressed in sweats, or acting so desperate for the job that the employer will wonder if there’s anything you can do for THEM.
Aya:
Your comment makes me think of a particular idea:
The nerd males of the world who pedestalize women are very much the same as the feminists who seek to pedestalize women.
I think it’s funny that so many talk so negatively about PUA, because PUA has a lot more frank discussion about what makes women tick and accepting them for who they are then feminism.
Many jerks don’t seem like jerks at the beginning. Instead, they seem fun, confident, attentive, and emotionally engaged. They usually show their true colors later, by which time the woman has already made an emotional investment. And women can do very dumb things when they are emotionally invested. People lie to themselves all the time. Men do it too — they will stay with an attractive woman who is emotionally abusive and manipulative simply because they are mesmerized by her good looks and sex appeal. This is an example of “confirmation bias” or seeing what you want to see. I had a roommate in college who was drop dead gorgeous and she treated guys like sh&t, but none of them ever dumped her even when she took their money and cheated on them. They kept coming back for more. It drove me crazy. I couldn’t understand how otherwise intelligent guys could be so stupid.
The problem with a lot of vocal MRAs is that they only see women as either a Victoria’s Secret model/girl put on pedestal that won’t date him, or an old, fat crone who doesn’t deserve love anyways and hates sex. They don’t recognize that a lot of women in between who go through the SAME thing, just like Jill and I have said. We also often sit on the sidelines and see guys who keep going back to manipulative women who use them, treat them like shit, and cheat, but overlook the ‘nice girls’ out there.
I was lucky enough to go through an ugly duckling transformation situation, so I have both perspectives and try to be jaded by neither. I’m still pretty young, but very few guys I’ve met who have been complete black and white jerks like people try to paint. I might have a fun week long stand with someone who’s mostly jerk, but I won’t go into a long term relationship with him, and am likely to eventually get bored or annoyed with him. If that’s what he wants, then it’s win-win. A lot of jerkier guys (especially ones who act that way to gain acceptance of their peers) go on to become pretty good guys once they’ve matured, ‘gotten it out of their system’, or found something/someone that makes it worth to change their behavior. Some never change, and that works great for them. I’m not at all advocating dating someone hoping that they’ll change (dumb), just saying that guys and gals are rarely simply just ‘jerk/bitch’ or ‘nice’ like crappy movies and romantic comedies seem to suggest.
“The problem with a lot of vocal MRAs is that they only see women as either a Victoria’s Secret model/girl put on pedestal that won’t date him, or an old, fat crone who doesn’t deserve love anyways and hates sex.”
Shouldn’t be a problem really. Those men aren’t attractive anyways, so it shouldn’t be a loss to females of the world that they hate women.
“They don’t recognize that a lot of women in between who go through the SAME thing, just like Jill and I have said. We also often sit on the sidelines and see guys who keep going back to manipulative women who use them, treat them like shit, and cheat, but overlook the ‘nice girls’ out there.”
Support works both ways. I know all kinds of things about what it feels like to be a woman, I have heard all kinds of stories about ‘not conventionally attractive’ women and how they feel. Yet somehow I have yet to see a single woman actually express genuine sympathy and understanding for men, other than lip service.
“I might have a fun week long stand with someone who’s mostly jerk, but I won’t go into a long term relationship with him, and am likely to eventually get bored or annoyed with him. If that’s what he wants, then it’s win-win.”
I.e. when the women you compete with have better offerings, then you can go to second tier.
“Some never change, and that works great for them. I’m not at all advocating dating someone hoping that they’ll change (dumb), just saying that guys and gals are rarely simply just ‘jerk/bitch’ or ‘nice’ like crappy movies and romantic comedies seem to suggest.”
I.e. women know what’s best and if a woman approves of a man, then he can’t be a jerk no matter what.
“I.e. when the women you compete with have better offerings, then you can go to second tier.”
Why does every sexual encounter have to be a competition or end up in a relationship? Can’t two hot people just have fun sex and both move on without any drama? If I have sex with a guy for a week, and he goes on and marries someone more suitable for him in a month, and I do the same thing, what’s the problem? Good times, wish you the best, if we stay friends we do, if we don’t, we don’t.
Where did you even get that I said that women know best? All I was trying to say is that it’s not all black and white. It’s not a Disney movie where one guy is Aladdin and the other guy is Jafar, or one girl is a princess and the other is a crazy slut who tries to ruin her life and steal her boyfriend.
“Why does every sexual encounter have to be a competition or end up in a relationship? Can’t two hot people just have fun sex and both move on without any drama? If I have sex with a guy for a week, and he goes on and marries someone more suitable for him in a month, and I do the same thing, what’s the problem?”
No problem as long as you accept that the second tier choice has every right to reject you.
“Good times, wish you the best, if we stay friends we do, if we don’t, we don’t.”
Old saying in my native language. The ones you kick on your way up are the ones that catch you when you fall.
Everyone has the right to reject me if they choose. I have the right to reject everyone I want to. It’s not rocket science…or brain surgery (whatever the saying is nowadays). I also have the courtesy to not insult, bully, or shame the ones who reject me. If they’re not into me, so be it–it’s my responsibility to get over it, move on with my life, and spend my energy on my career or people who are better for me.
I don’t even understand what point you are trying to make. First you complain that women prefer “jerks’, then you say that the “jerks” are “second tier” and the more attractive women are getting better choices. Which is it?
I have a feeling, 8of10, that you won’t approve of anything a woman does, so there is little point debating with you. I’ve read many of your posts and you are one angry dude. Just keep in mind that whenever you point a finger, three of your fingers are pointing back at you.
“I don’t even understand what point you are trying to make. First you complain that women prefer “jerks’, then you say that the “jerks” are “second tier” and the more attractive women are getting better choices. Which is it?”
Do you read what I write? It is simple. You can’t first go after the first tier, and talk about how worthless the second and third tier is, and then suddenly when the competition for the first tier is too fierce, then suddenly go after the second tier.
“I have a feeling, 8of10, that you won’t approve of anything a woman does, so there is little point debating with you. I’ve read many of your posts and you are one angry dude. Just keep in mind that whenever you point a finger, three of your fingers are pointing back at you.”
It’s not me first screaming my head off about my ‘right to preference’ and then demand sympathy when I am not included in other peoples’ preferences.
When have I ever said that “second tier” men don’t have a right to procreate? You are all over the map. But I’m not going to argue about who is 1st tier or 2nd tier because I do not buy into these false dichotomies. People are individuals and have individual preferences (and yes I do believe we all have a right to our preferences, both men and women). What works for one person won’t work for a different person. Yes, some people are more attractive to members of the opposite sex. So what? If you are having trouble finding relationships then you need to look at yourself and learn to present you strengths in the best light.
If you are complaining that many young women are immature and make bad choices in men based on transitory physical attraction, then, yeah, I agree with you as a general rule. Young men make similar mistakes. Eventually most of us grow up and our attractions become more nuanced. I don’t see why you think that’s such a bad thing. You seem to enjoy this fantasy of pretty young women who rejected shy/geeky/awkward guys being punished when they get older and the shy/geeky/awkward guys turn around and reject them. I submit that doesn’t actually happen. I know dozens of single women who are dating and finding happy relationships in their late 20′s – 50′s and beyond. I think while you are sitting at the computer feeling angry that you aren’t screwing 22-year-old hotties and wallowing in your righteous indignation and your revenge fantasies, other men and women are out meeting each other, getting involved and living their lives.
By the way, when I was in my 20′s I was a bit of a nerdy girl and I dated plenty of shy/geeky/awkward guys. The biggest problem with shy/geeky/awkward guys is that they are often difficult to talk to, don’t know how to engage socially, miss social cues, and they are so reticent that it is impossible to emotionally connect. Maybe the reason that women are more likely to choose those kinds of guys later in life (if indeed that is true, as you say) is because THOSE GUYS HAVE CHANGED. They’ve grown up and gotten better at talking and relating to women. Have you considered that possibility?
Colin, I feel your pain bro. you see sex happening all around you and you would like to have some also. Someone earlier suggested “buying some”. I think that’s dead nuts on advice. Since you’re just looking for that first “score”, who better than a seasoned professional who knows how to make a man “fell like a man”. A 4 day visit to Vegas should do the trick. Just go and do the reasearch. Check reviews, find a good “ranch” and go for it. Or you could wait around for “the right girl”. Yeah, another weekend with “rosey palm & her 5 sisters”. Hey, the ’40 Year old Virgin’ might be a funny movie, but it’s a pretty sad way to live your life.
That’s a good idea. Just make sure it’s a reputable brothel that tests and doesn’t exploit underage girls. If I hadn’t had sex by now, I’d be seeking out some erm…paid company myself to get some experience.
I think it’s an awful idea. It’s a rotten first experience. If you’re a sensitive person, things might not go well. It doesn’t teach you how to make love to a woman. I don’t even see how it could give you confidence. And then when you find a girl who likes you, she’s probably going to be turned off that you went to a prostitute.
Pray tell, where O where does one learn to “make love to a woman”?
Could you point me to the books or video that spells it out?
As well, you’re prejuding the matter rather too quickly aren’t you? A person could, you know, find a pro who will teach you how to make love to a woman. It can and I’m sure does happen. There are paid sexual surrogates who do these things you know.
The Wet One
Speaking for myself, sometimes a gal just wants a little action. So she goes out and looks for some. Maybe she’s taking you home because she decided early on that she was going to. She may be taking you home DESPITE all the smooth moves you’ve been making, not BECAUSE all that game you think you have. Sometimes with the young studs it’s best to let them think it’s all their idea. Saves a little time.
Have you ever hit on a 40 something guy in Home Depot, Gertie?
Just thinking maybe that was you…and all this time I figgered I was making all the right moves.
Well…until I went to plumbing and headed for the checkouts with a brandy new toilet plunger.
Eeew