There are a lot of ways to be a jerk when you’re trying to get laid. Emily Heist Moss writes a letter to her brother about how to make hook-up culture be about pleasure and consent, instead of “scoring.”
A letter to my brother, and all his college friends,
College is awesome, right? No parents, no curfew, no rules, and there are girls everywhere. It is an alcohol-fueled, school-spirit-enhanced buffet of ladies, and it’s hard not to want to sample everything on the menu. So you should! Seriously, I’m not going to rain on what could potentially be a literal parade, so just be safe and have fun.
You’re waiting for the “but,” because I’m your nagging big sister and that’s what I do. Here it is: Be safe, have fun, but don’t be a manipulative, coercive asshole about it. There’s story after story about on-campus sexual assaults, astoundingly high rates of date-rape, and even more terrifying estimates of unreported incidents. I’m not worried you’ll be that guy, but there are still dozens of tempting and legal ways to be a douche when you’re trying to get some action. Forgoing these “techniques” requires recalibrating your hook-up goals to emphasize consent, respect, and yes, pleasure, instead of “scoring.”
◊♦◊
There are strategies to get laid that are violent and criminal, and there are methodologies that are just mean-spirited and misogynistic. You can find the drunkest girl in the bar and hand her another shot. You can physically back a girl into a corner at a party until the only way out is through you. You can cut a girl down to size with backhanded “compliments,” belittle her until she thinks the only way to feel good again is to win your attention. You can taunt her with insults about prudishness, until she thinks she needs to prove something. You can taunt her with insults about sluttiness, until she thinks she might as well confirm what you already think of her. You already know that these dick moves are beneath you.
There are milder forms of deception and coercion, though, tactics that are dangerous because of their efficacy and subtlety. These are the ones to which I want to draw your attention. You can lie about your feelings for her. You can promise things you can’t deliver. You can agree to commitments you know you’ll break. You can hear hesitation or uncertainty in her voice, and ignore it. You can play with her emotions, knowing full well that if you were honest about your lack of intentions, you’d lose your shot at a hook-up. You can know that if she were sober, she wouldn’t be doing this, and you can go for it anyway. A court might not convict you, but I hope you know that these are dick moves, too.
The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.
All these strategies work more often than we’d like. I hope someday we can better teach teenagers (and adults) to call bullshit when they see it and to let the insults roll of their backs instead of eat at their self-esteem. But in the meantime, the fact that those manipulative moves might work doesn’t mean you should use them. These are tools for weak people, people for whom sex is a contest and winning matters. Sex can, and should, be fun. It can be playful, it can be casual, but it isn’t a game. Whether enacted by men or women, these bullshit strategies are not sexy, they are not cool, and—quaint as it may be—they are not very nice. There’s nothing wrong with a little push-pull, a little back-and-forth banter with a prospective partner, but assigning a winner and a loser to a sexual encounter sets us all back a couple decades.
◊♦◊
You should never feel like you’ve been convinced to have sex, and you should never feel like you’re doing the convincing. You want partners—one-night-stands or long-term relationships—who want to have sex with you as much as you want to have sex with them. The culturally established “no means no” is too low a bar. Only yes means yes. And I’m not talking about an “I guess we could…” or an “I don’t really care….” or an “Only if you really want to….” or a “Might as well…” I’m talking about an enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” Are those “yesses” less frequent than the non-committal, hesitant “not-nos?” Yeah, they are, but it’s worth it to know that the people you’re fooling around with really want to fool around with you, too.
Alcohol clouds everyone’s decision-making abilities, but it doesn’t make us deaf. Even at frat row, bar crawls, or crowded house parties, you need to listen for that “Yes!” And you need to be saying it too! If you’re a “Yes!” and your partner is a “Yes!”, then I revert to my original advice: be safe, have fun. Consent is not a traditionally sexy concept, but I absolutely guarantee you that two enthusiastic, excited, sustained “yesses” is what it’s all about.
Love,
Your big sister,
Emily
–
—Photo taberandrew/Flickr
About Emily Heist Moss
What Utopian nonsense
To assume that there should always be perfectly mutual desire in sex is absurd. Oftentimes sex can be transactional. If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.
And the goal of modern feminism would be accomplished.
“If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.”
What ARE you talking about?
” “If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.”
What ARE you talking about?”
What he means is that the society dictates, the man initiates sexual intentions and shows enough determination to convince the woman of his interest. The woman has the option to follow through or avoid the situation.
“If men were less aggressive about sex, then no sex would ever be had again.”
You don’t hang out with the same women as I do.
Well, my sweet love and I, who’ve had sex dozens and dozens of times now, probably only would have had once or twice if it were up to her.
I asked her if I was ever too agressive about sex or pressured her or coerced her into sex and she said no. Yet she’s only initiated maybe twice in our whole relationship.
Crap, I’m seeing a problem here. And yet she’s the most orgasmic, sex loving woman I’ve ever been with. Oh no, I’m sensing an issue here that needs careful discussion. Ah crap! Oh well, better now than afte the ring goes on the finger…
The Wet One.
I see troll-people…
Weird; the guys I know that are getting laid regularly aren’t very aggressive people. In fact, most of them seem pretty cool- and my metric of ‘cool’ includes ‘not being aggressive or pushy about sex’.
What is true is ladies say they are looking for nice man. It is also true that their actions prove it is the mean, offensive, and rude males are the ones they choose. Look at any dating sight . The facts stick out . If a man says he : cooks , gardens, reads, loves to cuddle , ect. is less likely to be chosen . Yet the Ladies on these same sites say that’s what they are looking for .
Now that is a ridiculous comment, true nonsense.
Jill, I *think* what 8of10 is saying is that if a woman has slept with someone who he considers a jerk, she will get rejected by a ‘second tier’ (presumably what he considers himself at the moment) if or when she wants to date one. This would make all jerks ‘first tier’ and all nice guys ‘second tier’ (this makes no sense, since plenty of very good men are also intelligent, educated, sexy guys who date and mate with women). He and other guys are completely free to avoid and reject any woman they want, but to use his words, “Those men aren’t attractive anyways, so it shouldn’t be a loss to females of the world that they hate women.” It seems outdated, silly, insecure, and impractical to vilify a woman who’s been with someone you’re not a fan of. It’s not exactly slut-shame, just a little immature. I don’t like one of my partner’s exes. Frankly, I think she was a total bitch to him, me, and in general. He had a lot of sex with her. So what? He’s having sex with me now and is great at it. 8of10 *could* be saying that jerks are ‘second tier’, but that wouldn’t make sense in the context of his other comments.
Also, 8of10, who’s kicking whom in the above situation? I’ve never encountered that particular fetish in my sexcapades, but I’m sure it’s out there…:P Sure, relationships between (and within) genders are not always going to be neat, especially when you add sex into the mix. One friend falls for another, a couple drifts apart, two people love one another, but one or both of them isn’t/aren’t ready or willing to have a monogamous relationship so they sleep around, sex drives/kinks/sexualities don’t match, etc… Of course, it won’t *always* be perfect, but there’s nothing wrong with two consenting parties having a good time and parting without some big scene. All you can do is try and treat one another with respect and admit it when you haven’t.
“Jill, I *think* what 8of10 is saying is that if a woman has slept with someone who he considers a jerk, she will get rejected by a ‘second tier’ (presumably what he considers himself at the moment) if or when she wants to date one.”
You were the one talking about vocal MRAs refusing to go after other people than victoria’s secret models. I asked why that is a problem. MRAs aren’t attractive anyway so what is the problem if they hate women?
“This would make all jerks ‘first tier’ and all nice guys ‘second tier’ (this makes no sense, since plenty of very good men are also intelligent, educated, sexy guys who date and mate with women). He and other guys are completely free to avoid and reject any woman they want, but to use his words, “Those men aren’t attractive anyways, so it shouldn’t be a loss to females of the world that they hate women.” It seems outdated, silly, insecure, and impractical to vilify a woman who’s been with someone you’re not a fan of. ”
This is totally incoherent.
“It’s not exactly slut-shame, just a little immature. I don’t like one of my partner’s exes. Frankly, I think she was a total bitch to him, me, and in general. He had a lot of sex with her. So what?”
Yes, so what? How about, no you ran your legs off in chase of the men who made my life a living hell, when we were young. But now when 8of10 makes boatloads of money and has lost all of his overweight, and you have lost your capital in the meat market, then suddenly I am supposed to feel sorry for you that I remember you previous actions and don’t want to deal with you.
“He’s having sex with me now and is great at it. 8of10 *could* be saying that jerks are ‘second tier’, but that wouldn’t make sense in the context of his other comments.”
Why is it so hard to comprehend? You can’t first run your legs off chasing bullies, and then suddenly when you can’t compete for the bullies anymore then start talking about how ‘you have changed’ and that you ‘have different values’ now.
“Also, 8of10, who’s kicking whom in the above situation? I’ve never encountered that particular fetish in my sexcapades, but I’m sure it’s out there…:P”
You can’t first talk about how second tier men are worthless and should just realized they will never procreate, then suddenly when the first tier is to tough for you start running back to the second tier. You treated people in the second tier as crap when you hold power, then be prepared to be treated as crap when you fall into the second tier.
“Sure, relationships between (and within) genders are not always going to be neat, especially when you add sex into the mix. One friend falls for another, a couple drifts apart, two people love one another, but one or both of them isn’t/aren’t ready or willing to have a monogamous relationship so they sleep around, sex drives/kinks/sexualities don’t match, etc… Of course, it won’t *always* be perfect, but there’s nothing wrong with two consenting parties having a good time and parting without some big scene. All you can do is try and treat one another with respect and admit it when you haven’t.”
I treat people like they treat other, and judging from how vocal women are about that men should know their place and realize they get the female attention they deserve, they have clearly shown they want to play hardball, and that means I will play hardball with them.
I don’t think any guy is worthless or shouldn’t get laid, nor have I ever had a situation where a first tier guy was ‘too tough’. Like I said, most of the guys I consider ’1st tier’ are very sweet men who just happen to be confident and make for great boyfriends and friends. I’ve had a lot more problems with friends who consider themselves ’2nd tier’ and just don’t seem to get the dating scene complain to me because I’ve tried to be nice to them (and I can never give them any good advice), or go after me romantically and whinily because I’m a hot girl who said a few nice words to them. The only people I said aren’t good people anyways are the ones who point fingers and judge. Guys (and girls) who can’t get a date just need to step back and realize that they might be doing something wrong.
And it’s possible to change. It’s not really a change of ‘values’ to feel like you’re ready for a serious relationship, just a different stage in life, and it happens to both men and women. Sometimes it never happens and you’re happy just sleeping around, which is great. Your moral system doesn’t have to change for you to decide you’re bored with bars, the chase, and want something more stable. You can still high 5 your buddies who do chase ass. I had a male friend who slept with every woman and man who crossed his path during college. Now he’s been happily married for 4 years to an intelligent, gorgeous woman, has a beautiful baby boy, seems completely happy, and doesn’t have any regrets. I have another friend who always thought that he wanted a soulmate and monogamy, then started to get regularly laid and confided to me that now he just can’t stay faithful to one person. As his friend, I had already seen that he was headed that way and could see that despite the way he’d been before, he had changed his tune. He’s still a very good guy. Both guys would be considered ’1st tier’ by people here, but neither is anywhere near a jerk.
“How about, no you ran your legs off in chase of the men who made my life a living hell, when we were young. But now when 8of10 makes boatloads of money and has lost all of his overweight, and you have lost your capital in the meat market, then suddenly I am supposed to feel sorry for you that I remember you previous actions and don’t want to deal with you.”
How about, if you’re THAT bitter, angry, and self righteous, why the hell would I WANT to deal with you? How could being with someone like that possibly make for a healthy relationship? I could never want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t want to be with me. What’s the point of it? Despite requiring compromise and the presence of jealousy or frustration, a relationship is meant to make both/all parties happy. Also, I don’t care if you’re fat (my first serious boyfriend was 250 lbs and I had become the hottest girl on campus)….I do admit that there would be a problem if you were seriously obese and I had to deal with getting you out of the door or having to buy 2 plane tickets for you instead of 1. I don’t care if you make money (No one I’ve ever seriously dated has made any money, I don’t care about jewelry, and I don’t mind paying for/splitting bills. If a guy with whom I had a casual encounter did have money, I wouldn’t want to know or care, since I’m only trying to have fun, and gifts would make things weird and awkward). Your weight loss and money don’t make you a fun guy to be around or a good/caring boyfriend or friend. It doesn’t even make you a good lay. If you really think that it does, you’re pretty shallow.
“And it’s possible to change. It’s not really a change of ‘values’ to feel like you’re ready for a serious relationship, just a different stage in life, and it happens to both men and women. ”
Newspeak. Changing the wording, doesn’t change the facts.
“Sometimes it never happens and you’re happy just sleeping around, which is great. Your moral system doesn’t have to change for you to decide you’re bored with bars, the chase, and want something more stable. You can still high 5 your buddies who do chase ass.”
You high five them because you wish you still had that kind of value on the meat market.
“I had a male friend who slept with every woman and man who crossed his path during college. Now he’s been happily married for 4 years to an intelligent, gorgeous woman, has a beautiful baby boy, seems completely happy, and doesn’t have any regrets.”
Wait until he starts balding, gains weight and gets laid off. See what his wife will do to him then.
“I have another friend who always thought that he wanted a soulmate and monogamy, then started to get regularly laid and confided to me that now he just can’t stay faithful to one person. As his friend, I had already seen that he was headed that way and could see that despite the way he’d been before, he had changed his tune. He’s still a very good guy. Both guys would be considered ’1st tier’ by people here, but neither is anywhere near a jerk.”
That was not what was meant by 1:st tier, and you are very well aware of that.
“How about, if you’re THAT bitter, angry, and self righteous, why the hell would I WANT to deal with you?”
You don’t, please leave me alone. But don’t complain that men only want younger better looking women when you lose your looks and your value in the meat market.
“How could being with someone like that possibly make for a healthy relationship? I could never want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t want to be with me. What’s the point of it?”
As above, this has never been the question. The question was why suddenly when the people who had no value, suddenly gain value they are supposed to extend some kind of sympathy they themselves were never shown when they were of no value.
“Also, I don’t care if you’re fat (my first serious boyfriend was 250 lbs and I had become the hottest girl on campus)….”
So why did you dump him?
“I don’t care if you make money (No one I’ve ever seriously dated has made any money, I don’t care about jewelry, and I don’t mind paying for/splitting bills. If a guy with whom I had a casual encounter did have money, I wouldn’t want to know or care, since I’m only trying to have fun, and gifts would make things weird and awkward).”
More rationalization.
“Your weight loss and money don’t make you a fun guy to be around or a good/caring boyfriend or friend. It doesn’t even make you a good lay. If you really think that it does, you’re pretty shallow.”
So what if I am shallow? I am very well within my right to be a shallow a-hole if I so desire. This is something I have learned from feminist discourse. See for example the feminist response to Alyssa Bereznak.
Alyssa Bereznak wrote a really awful, crappy article. The fact that she did it on a tech gadget site was either supremely dumb on her part, or part of an attention and controversy ploy by the site itself. If the latter, it worked. To write someone off for something as awesome as being top of the top in the MTG world without knowing anything–or bothering to know anything–about the game (which requires intelligence, patience, money, and is a good platform for meeting friends) is beyond shallow. If she’d made an intelligent argument about how his dedication to the game might have affected their potential relationship due to his travel, instability of schedule, insecurity about not being able to play the game herself, then fine. Instead, she just stereotyped and said: “EWWW NERD.” Not writing his successes in the OK Cupid profile was more a show of humility than creepy, in my opinion (I know I wouldn’t have been that humble if I ever needed to go on a dating site). She deserved to be called shallow and a terrible writer. She didn’t deserve to be told she’s a cunt whore who deserves to be beaten. Not ok.
She does not represent all women. I’m with an avid MTG player, and at the moment, I’m the one buying him cards (although he does have a great, expensive collection and often trades). I accompany him to pre-releases, release events, PTQs, FNMs, etc. Since he is currently broke, I’m going to end up having to buy him cards when needs them (I feel guilty that I haven’t been able to buy him a a box from Innistrad so that he can play a good standard deck right now). I buy duel decks so that he can help me learn, even though I know I’ll never be as good as he is.
I repeat, Alyssa is not all women. She did something really dumb and ignorant. Who hasn’t? I don’t agree with her, but the terrible, irrelevant, inflammatory language that was used against her is completely misogynistic, defensive, and doesn’t accomplish anything other than to bring more attention to her and the site–and make the MTG community (with which I’ve never had any trouble in person) look bad.
I think the crux of the matter is this:
Is alyssa closer to the exception or the norm for women, particularly dating women in their 20′s.
I think 8 of 10 (and myself actually) are of the persuasion that she is closer to the rule, rather than the exception.
The dating world is a shark tank LARGELY due to the fickleness and inflated sense of self-esteem of women.
The guy Alyssa shamed on her webpage was a millionaire fund manager. The simple fact nobody likes to accept is that young women think with their libido just as much (or more) than young men. Wasting their time trying to change bad-boys, players, and thugs into LTR material.
And (to my observation) these women never really grow up. They only “settle” for hard-working poindexters in their late 30′s because they know they no longer have the mating value to attract the attention of charming men. They still pine away for these men who used pumped and dumped them.
Now, when these women run short on options NOW they want to play some kind of blame game on the docile respectful poindexters who got their lives straight while women made much poorer choices?
The morale of the story is don’t think the blame game is going to work in the particular situation when it comes from 39y/o women who spent half their lives riding the charmer pumpem and dumpem c*ck carousels on 39-49y/o men who spent quiet lives amassing decent life-options who trade those options in for the women they desire.
It’s a huge case of the pot calling the kettle black. Don’t blame men for playing the best hand they are dealt.
If you want a better outcome for all (and not just for narcissistic women who mispent their youth) then you should advocate for restoring the marriage contract.
Support shared parenting advocates. But most women don’t want to do this. The would rather have the option to titillate themselves with lots of fun guys (with no real future) and shame men later in life to take them after they’ve been used like a communal specimen cup.
Let’s be honest for a change. Let’s be honest about immature choices women make too.
I’m sorry if, in your experience, she is the rule. I just know that I’m not, and that a lot of the women I know are not. Who would I blame and shame afterwards? Most of the men in my social life have treated me with the same respect I gave to them. If I didn’t want a relationship with them, why should I expect they would want one with me? I’ve said before that I have no interest in changing a man and don’t really think it’s up to me to do so. If they want to change in any way, good for them, but I’m not going to waste my own energy on it. I’m not some…man missionary. I would never blame a man for being a ‘docile poindexter’, but I will point it out when he lacks confidence and puts me or another woman on a pedestal that we can never fulfill (or even deserve) just because we’re hot and talk to him. Just like my guy friends and partner won’t call me terrible names, but will tell me when I’m being a bit crazy or unreasonable.
I don’t pine for any of the ‘more charming’ (that’s so subjective, too) guys I’ve slept with. They were fun, and I hope they’re doing well, but my dorky, broke, not in shape partner can make me cum 10 times in 15 minutes, shares his ‘nerdy’ hobbies with me, tells me when I’m being crazy but accepts my apologies afterwards, treats me like a woman, not something that he’s won, and loves me as much as I love him. I’m 25 and while I wasn’t hit on very much when I was younger, I’ve had my pick of the ‘litter’ for a little while now, since I’m beautiful, intelligent, and nice. I know what I want, though, and it’s not wealth, a super-body, fake insults, or acceptance of him by my friends (family might be a different matter
). I need a guy who isn’t bitter and respects women, with whom I can have fun, play games, cook, watch tv, travel, fight and have makeup sex afterwards, cuddle, etc.. It just makes for an easier, funner, less complicated life. I’m blessed to have found a guy like that, but find no use in flagellating myself, him or others for having experimented with love, sex, friendship, drama, or sexual fluidity when we wanted to.
If enjoying sex is considered ‘misspending youth’, then we really do live in a puritanical society. If someone doesn’t want to get married, they shouldn’t have to, but if they chose to have children, it’s important to understand that the kids come first now. That goes for hetero couples, singles parents, gays, lesbians, etc.
Aya,
I applaud your acceptance of men for who they are. I also applaud your acceptance of the men which Alyssa seems to think are disposable.
While we could probably argue about whether or not Alyssa is the rule, I think it would be spot-on to say that the average women lie somewhere between your acceptance and Alyssa’s fickleness. In my experience the great majority of 20′s and low 30′s women are much closer to Alyssa than to you.
ON these pages I’ve seen women crying about how they get hit on by dozen’s and dozens of men each week. I’ve also seen many female posters cry about how they’re not approached by women.
I’ve even seen one female poster called out and trying to claim BOTH things on two different threads within a week apart (on the timing of the articles).
It seems most people blithely accept when women say: “all men are like_____”.
But, when men pour out their feelings about the shortcomings of women to realize a valuable man it’s “oh no! All women are not like that! In fact me myself am like this _______”
(In other words: when women complain men are the problem it’s undeniable fact. When men complain women are the problem, it’s the undeniable fact that the complaining men are the problem. Are women ever at fault?)
Regardless of how over-prevalent the exception seems to be on these boards (chuckle):
All women can’t be the exception to the very noticeable trend that women in their 20′s devalue reliable respectful men in exchange for drama kings to spice up their lives.
I’m not on a rampage on women. I and other commenters are trying to give a very serious counter-point to the author, that young women make poor choices true.
It’s called experience for a reason.
Alyssa Bereznak wrote a really awful, crappy article. The fact that she did it on a tech gadget site was either supremely dumb on her part, or part of an attention and controversy ploy by the site itself. If the latter, it worked. To write someone off for something as awesome as being top of the top in the MTG world without knowing anything–or bothering to know anything–about the game (which requires intelligence, patience, money, and is a good platform for meeting friends) is beyond shallow. If she’d made an intelligent argument about how his dedication to the game might have affected their potential relationship due to his travel, instability of schedule, insecurity about not being able to play the game herself, then fine. Instead, she just stereotyped and said: “EWWW NERD.” Not writing his successes in the OK Cupid profile was more a show of humility than creepy, in my opinion (I know I wouldn’t have been that humble if I ever needed to go on a dating site). She deserved to be called shallow and a terrible writer. She didn’t deserve to be told she’s a c*** wh**e who deserves to be beaten. Not ok.
She does not represent all women. I’m with an avid MTG player, and at the moment, I’m the one buying him cards (although he does have a great, expensive collection and often trades). I accompany him to pre-releases, release events, PTQs, FNMs, etc. Since he is currently broke, I’m going to end up having to buy him cards when needs them (I feel guilty that I haven’t been able to buy him a a box from Innistrad so that he can play a good standard deck right now). I buy duel decks so that he can help me learn, even though I know I’ll never be as good as he is.
I repeat, Alyssa is not all women. She did something really dumb and ignorant. Who hasn’t? I don’t agree with her, but the terrible, irrelevant, inflammatory language that was used against her is completely misogynistic, defensive, and doesn’t accomplish anything other than to bring more attention to her and the site–and make the MTG community (with which I’ve never had any trouble in person) look bad.
(edited due to moderation for using bad words <..>)
I agree that, just like Alyssa, you have the right to be shallow. Just recognize that your weight and money won’t make you fun, caring, cute, interesting, or good in bed. I’m genuinely sorry that you got bullied. It’s a problem that’s finally being addressed in the media. A lot of people are bullied because of their weight, ethnicity, being too pretty/too ugly, sexual orientation, gender identification, race, class, social awkwardness, etc. It doesn’t help to face it 24/7 on the internet. Pushing one’s own insecurities to others by bullying them and making their lives a living hell is sick, and your bullies were sick. I hope the women who dated them didn’t bully you as well or sit by the sidelines and let it happen. If they did, they were just as sick. All you can do is hope that they’ve recognized that they were wrong and changed.
I never complained that all men only want younger, hotter girls (I’m sure a lot do, but what use is it to care or get hung up on it?). I was simply trying to say that a lot of vocal MRAs seem to only see a dichotomy between girls they put on a pedestal (future bitches who don’t sleep with them and go after guys that they deem unworthy) and fat old crones (who hate sex and don’t deserve love)—but don’t recognize that a lot of women, straight or lesbian (as well as gay guys) go through the same things that they do. They also watch the people they think they love stay with and keep coming back to abusive, manipulative people. It’s not something that ONLY happens to straight, self-proclaimed ‘beta’ men.
If everything is a meat market to you, then why bother with people? Is it that impossible to believe that many people want good relationships, good friends, and good sex, and will continue to care about the important people in their lives? I highly doubt that my friend’s wife (the mother of his child, and a very smart woman) would leave him simply because of some hair loss. If they both lose their jobs, it’ll be tough and cause a lot of stress. There might be money arguments, affairs, etc—but marriage often involves work. No marriage will ever be perfect, but you love each other, you love your children, you should be attracted to each other, and you’ve built a life together. That’s so much more important than a hair style or being able to afford a whatever-inch TV. My parents’ friend stayed with her husband through deafness, job changes, hair loss, and major problems with children. As for my first love, it’s simple. I dumped him not because of his weight, but because I was very young and wanted to see what else was out there—poor, rich, fat, buff, nerdy, frat boy, awkward, arrogant, whatever. Who says your first love and first sexual partner has to be your last, especially at a young age? He’s still one of my very best friends (if not my best friend). He’s also lost a lot of weight and I continue to encourage him in his own romantic and sexual pursuits. He’s had success with beautiful girls and I hope he continues to.
“I agree that, just like Alyssa, you have the right to be shallow.”
Great.
“Just recognize that your weight and money won’t make you fun, caring, cute, interesting, or good in bed.”
I have to refer to more feminist dogma on this question as well. It is my full right to regard myself as the ultimate gift to women, and if women can’t see this then they are simply ignorant. Just as feminists state that women never have to change or commit introspection.
“I’m genuinely sorry that you got bullied. It’s a problem that’s finally being addressed in the media. A lot of people are bullied because of their weight, ethnicity, being too pretty/too ugly, sexual orientation, gender identification, race, class, social awkwardness, etc. It doesn’t help to face it 24/7 on the internet. Pushing one’s own insecurities to others by bullying them and making their lives a living hell is sick, and your bullies were sick. I hope the women who dated them didn’t bully you as well or sit by the sidelines and let it happen. If they did, they were just as sick. All you can do is hope that they’ve recognized that they were wrong and changed.”
I don’t care, let those women have it off with the bullies, they are well within their right to have it off with whomever they so please, that is not for me to decide. That is not what I am arguing about, what I am arguing about is that these same women complain when they can’t compete for the bullies anymore, and the bullied don’t want to deal with those women.
“I never complained that all men only want younger, hotter girls (I’m sure a lot do, but what use is it to care or get hung up on it?).”
See previous articles on this very site, ‘Her looks, your status’ and Is it natural for older guys to lust after younger girls?
“I was simply trying to say that a lot of vocal MRAs seem to only see a dichotomy between girls they put on a pedestal (future bitches who don’t sleep with them and go after guys that they deem unworthy) and fat old crones (who hate sex and don’t deserve love)—but don’t recognize that a lot of women, straight or lesbian (as well as gay guys) go through the same things that they do. They also watch the people they think they love stay with and keep coming back to abusive, manipulative people. It’s not something that ONLY happens to straight, self-proclaimed ‘beta’ men.”
Let me ask, is there a loud vocal movement spreading out in media talking about how women and homosexual men get exactly the level of romantic attraction they deserve and if they get a level they are not content with then they only have themselves to blame. If there is such a movement, then I will say it is fair to all genders and sexual orientations.
“If everything is a meat market to you, then why bother with people?”
A lot of times it is a meat market. The most sexually attractive man gets laid the most. The losers get nothing.
“Is it that impossible to believe that many people want good relationships, good friends, and good sex, and will continue to care about the important people in their lives?”
I have seen too much to believe that.
“I highly doubt that my friend’s wife (the mother of his child, and a very smart woman) would leave him simply because of some hair loss. If they both lose their jobs, it’ll be tough and cause a lot of stress. There might be money arguments, affairs, etc—but marriage often involves work.”
Just wait and see. You would be suprissed at how fast things can change, especially when better offers come around.
“No marriage will ever be perfect, but you love each other, you love your children, you should be attracted to each other, and you’ve built a life together. That’s so much more important than a hair style or being able to afford a whatever-inch TV. My parents’ friend stayed with her husband through deafness, job changes, hair loss, and major problems with children.”
See statement above. Things can change at a very rapid pace.
“As for my first love, it’s simple. I dumped him not because of his weight, but because I was very young and wanted to see what else was out there—poor, rich, fat, buff, nerdy, frat boy, awkward, arrogant, whatever. Who says your first love and first sexual partner has to be your last, especially at a young age?”
Something better, yes.
“He’s still one of my very best friends (if not my best friend). He’s also lost a lot of weight and I continue to encourage him in his own romantic and sexual pursuits. He’s had success with beautiful girls and I hope he continues to.”
This is probably just you saying this to make yourself feel better. I have seen and heard this speech too many times. He is such a great person, oh how I wish that he would meet a woman who could appreciate all those things, but I don’t feel anything.
It is just a nice way to not having to confront a pure market fundamentalist approach to dating and attraction.
No, no. Not better. Just different. New lust. New penis. New places to f***. Different experience. Like you’ve never heard of any guy who was married to a gorgeous, smart woman cheat on her with the dowdier nanny, some dumb girl he met in a club, a prostitute, an ugly but aggressive woman he met on a trip abroad, etc… (I didn’t cheat on him, just trying to draw a comparison that different doesn’t always have to mean better).
Another fantastic post, Emily, thanks for brightening up my day with some intelligent opinions on sex.
Great article. This should be handed out in sex ed classes in high school.
This article does not fully tell you what not to do to be called a “jerk”. For one thing manipulation is not the only “jerk” move at least as I understand it, there are another of other ways that men get called jerks.
One reason that men ask about how to get laid without being a jerk is that they fear missing out on an opportunity to have sex (which is a good thing in my opinion!) just because of misplaced fears. When I was growing up I was taught that all women were offended if the guy wasn’t in love with the gal. Now that might seem like an incorrect belief to you but it what I was taught.So If that’s not true what’s the real truth then? Can’t anybody tell me?
Of course many people will say “just be honest” that’s what is socially acceptable, and maybe it is but like I don’t think that’s the entire truth. Could it be that there is a lot more than one opinion among women about what find offensive if so then please say that. because that is something that isn’t ever said as strange as that is. How about a how to get laid without being a jerk essay that says something like your inevitably going to be called a jerk because that’s life?
I am asking somebody empathetic to please discuss with me? I don’t know what it is so hard to get a decent and clarifying answer. If I was socially active and wasn’t so isolated I would already know and i’d probably be just as unemphatic as many of you are being. I would just say oh your just being whatever….just get laid.
Could perhaps a lot of the whole thing about being “too nice” and not being able to get laid is that being “too nice” you make assumptions about how to interact with women sexually that simply aren’t true?
Do you understand my question?
Mark,
While I appreciate that women are posting on this, I think one wrinkle is this:
Individual women are on here posting and saying “this is what all women want”.
The thing is, no individual women can come on here and post what “all women want”. I can’t come on here and post “what all men want”. Because I don’t know.
Here’s my main beef with what a lot of women on here are posting: They CLAIM they don’t want jerks, however they don’t seem very concerned with the REALITY that MANY MANY women in their 20′s (which is really what most of the dating world consists of for men & women) are very immature (just as men are).
The simple fact is that, a VERY LARGE portion of women DO go for jerks. They confuse assholishness with confidence. Which is only expected. People on here may claim it’s a stereotype, but there are some valid concrete reasons why the stereotype of the jerk-desiring women exist.
This is especially pronounced among very beautiful women. Any man who treats a very beautiful woman like she’s special (or even kids her that she’s not good enough for him) will be approaching her with a much stronger position than all of the idolizing men before you who have put her on a pedestal. The simple reason is due to novelty.
Her beauty commands a lot of fear and worship from men. Simple logic of the human equation says this will get very boring very quickly. A man who treats her like a normal person will give her some novelty. Even, if she turns him down–odds are she will do so in a kind way and continue thinking about him A LOT.
While the advice to be confident is correct, it doesn’t really instruct you how. Maybe the solution is to get a life-coach, or take a class on public speaking so you become more natural.
It may even be worth-while to take a class on dating. They’re very expensive, but considering how wretched some of these guys sound over love & relationships it might be money well spent.
But do you due diligence. Don’t just pick one out of a phone book. Research any group you are thinking about paying. It may be worthwhile to invest in some dating books. If dating is important to you and you’re not doing it well, then act like it’s important and work to fix it, rather than just cry and moan about the world being unfair (not that the world isn’t–but you have to play the best hand you’re dealt).
Unfortunately, despite repeated claims for equality women will not let go of the time-worn classic of making men perform advances. For all their talk about the fragile male ego, it is women who are much too thin-skinned to ever face rejection–and that’s just the world we live in.
Typo:
Any man who treats a beautiful women likes she’s NOTHING SPECIAL
I appreciate what you have to say here. And I think that women who make the claim that ALL women are such and such are obviously wrong……
However I am asking a very different question than you are responding to….
My question is about how to go about getting laid without being a jerk. I want someone to answer my question. To me it’s an urgent and important question.
Would somebody please read my above post and begin an intelligent discussion with me that does not involve condescension or a lecture ( for that matter venting about how frustrating their experiences have been with the opposite sex)?
Mark my man, I’ll give you the same advice that I gave Colin. Pay for it. This assumes of course that you’re not in a jurisdiction where paying for it is illegal. It isn’t where I’m at.
The transaction is brutally honest. No one has any illusions on either side (unlike many other such liasons obtained in a conventional manner). Treat each other with respect and dignity and have a whale of a time.
If that’s not what you want, and who does over the long term really, hear me out. You want to obtain sex without being a jerk. The prostitution route gets you there. If you want to find a relationship and have sex, go on a ton of first dates (real easy on Plenty of Fish), and have sex with pros in the meantime. Until you find a woman worth your time to have an actual relationship with and have sex with (be picky, no point in jumping into anything too serious too soon after all. Remember, you’re not desperate because you’re getting laid).
It’s not generally socially sancitoned, but it does get you over the sex hump. If you are as I was (namely a 32 year old virgin, which is uncomfortably close to a 40 year virgin), it’s a reasonable and fair route. Make sure that your pro is doing it of her own free will (i.e. no one straight out of a crack shack or off the streets. There are thousands and thousands of them so it’s not that hard, but be a decent man about it and don’t pay $40 to some sex slave because you’re a cheap douchebag. Pros are pros and deserve to be paid accordingly).
Yeah and be sure to get tested and all the blah blah blah that goes along with having sex with people who’s medical history you don’t know (which is like everyone in the world including your mother and father) and play safe.
Get all your fantasies out of the way (now is the time to have sex with the hottest possible woman you can lay your hands on! You’ll love it, I sure did!) while you look for a woman who’s actually in your league and has more going for her than her sex appeal and willingness to have sex with you for money.
Learn as much as you can about pleasing women sexually while you’re at it too. Pros will be happy to let you know (real pros anyways, some pros aren’t so pro in that area). Ask questions the same way you’d ask questions of a lawyer or doctor assuming you didn’t have to pay them for their time.
And date! Seriously DATE! Go out on every date you possibly can with whoever will say yes to you (which is pretty easy on Plenty of Fish if you’re serious about it). Yeah, you’ll waste a lot of evenings with women you would rather not spend time with, but you’ll get a full measure of the diversity of people out there, andyou’ll have some fun (see lists of what to do for dates and just go through the whole dang list. There’s tons of stuff you would never otherwise do if you weren’t doing this). You’ll build some confidence (between the sheets and in dating) because you’ll have what you lack: EXPERIENCE. Pay attention to what you’re doing right or wrong on dates and fix those problems. It’s much like riding a bike. You’ll fall off a bunch but eventually you’ll become proficient at it (even if you’re not winning the Tour de France). Yeah, it’ll cost money, but them’s the breaks. College wasn’t free either so deal with it!
Need anything else?
Also ignore the haters. It’s your life. Live it.
While you may reject my recommendation, you will eventually have sex without having to pay for it. If you go on 60- 70 first dates (like I did), believe it or not, you will actually get laid for free from time to time (even if it’s not in a serious relationship). It really does happen. But until you go on all those dates (and it’s a numbers game because you’re a guy), it ain’t gonna. Just do it.
If you’re getting shot down too much on POF, remember this. Make a great profile (they provide you with tips and hints on how to do this to attract women) and let the women come to you. Any woman who writes you or even just looks at your profile (you can do this), hit them up and say hi. Then ask them out for coffee, a drink, lunch, dinner, whatever. And do it day after day after day.
Don’t care if you get shot down (you will repeatedly). Don’t care if she’s a flake (you’ll meet many). Don’t care that all kinds of great seeming fish will get away (they will and there will be more). Just go out and date. Date everyone who will say yes. Don’t descriminate because you don’t actually know what you like until you know and everyone is different. Some larger women are the BOMB and you don’t know until you’ve tried it.
This route resulted in me having one of the best times of my life. I had sex with gorgeous women totally out of my league. I got to indulge in most of my sexual fantasies (including having sex with a Lara Croft look alike! Seriously, it was that good!).
I got to meet women from all walks of life (a major in the army who drove a ferrari, an online porn model, a crystalogist (yeah she was a flake, but whatever), an executive at a big company who just had a child, a world class musician who worked with Pavarotti, a suicidal depressive who had the worst childhood imaginable, a philosopher who took a job as a security guard so she could study quantum mechanics (some of the best conversations EVER!!!!), an environmental activist (that was a street pick-up, which is one of my prouder moments as it was a date finagled through a 10 minute discussion about the environment with a complete stranger. Total SCORE!!!! Didn’t go anywhere, but whatever), a medical student, and on and on and on.
It’s that easy, but I”m telling you. Just do it. What do you have to lose? Some money? Pah! What is money without women? Useless!
Get it done and live your life.
The Wet One
Oh yeah, I also got to have sex with a couple of bodybuilders (definitely worth your time. Check it out). Hair models, hand models, women of every ethnicity and race. Women of different sizes (in every department too).
And best of all, I met my sweet love through this process. Hands down the finest woman I’ve ever met. For her, I’ve given all that racket up and now I enjoy happiness in her company. Ah… The good life. It’s there for you Mark if you’ll reach out and take it!
The Wet One.
I would take a public speaking course. Maybe get a life coach (much different than a therapist. A life coach will help you set goals to help you grow as a person and give you good advice on how to achieve them)
Start finding some interests that you like. Next year I plan on taking up hang-gliding.
Their are fun things to do in each state that don’t require athleticism: like cave spelunking or trail walking. You can join a singles trail walkers group, or singles bowling.
You could look up PUA websights. The best one I have seen is Citizen Renegade.
Just type that into the web-search. You can take whichever tips or suggestions you are comfortable with.
There is also a technique called Kino, which involves light touches to women’s thighs or small of her back, brushing her bangs away, etc.. that are proven to work.
But, don’t just concentrate on picking up women. Concentrate on developing interests that mark you a novelty/top tier quality interesting person, so people will have interests in your stories. Develop your speaking skills etc..
I hope that’s a good base.
Colin your advice just isn’t the route for me. Prostitution is just too impersonal for me to get any enjoyment out. I have tried that route and it doesn’t work for me, but Thank You.
So again here is my question for somebody helpful ton answer:
This article does not fully tell you what not to do to be called a “jerk”. For one thing manipulation is not the only “jerk” move at least as I understand it, there are another of other ways that men get called jerks.
One reason that men ask about how to get laid without being a jerk is that they fear missing out on an opportunity to have sex (which is a good thing in my opinion!) just because of misplaced fears. When I was growing up I was taught that all women were offended if the guy wasn’t in love with the gal. Now that might seem like an incorrect belief to you but it what I was taught.So If that’s not true what’s the real truth then? Can’t anybody tell me?
Of course many people will say “just be honest” that’s what is socially acceptable, and maybe it is but like I don’t think that’s the entire truth. Could it be that there is a lot more than one opinion among women about what find offensive if so then please say that. because that is something that isn’t ever said as strange as that is. How about a how to get laid without being a jerk essay that says something like your inevitably going to be called a jerk because that’s life?
I am asking somebody empathetic to please discuss with me? I don’t know what it is so hard to get a decent and clarifying answer.
Do you understand my question?
Mark,
Why are you spending so much time and energy worrying about a problem that you don’t have?
Being called a jerk isn’t a life sentence. What some people find egregious and offensive, others find funny and interesting. You can’t control for every variable. Quit looking to other people to decide what’s acceptable behavior for you.
I have my own personal code of ethics when it comes to sex and women — and I stick to it. For me, it’s 1) Don’t lie or deceive, 2) Don’t force anyone to do anything against their will, and 3) Be honest and direct with my intentions. That’s enough to keep me out of trouble 99% of the time. The other 1% I will look at what happened, decide who’s in the right or wrong (from my perspective) and either apologize if I’m in the wrong or move on if they’re in the wrong.
People are unique and varied individuals. Very few behaviors are considered universally good or bad. You really can’t know what sexual advances a woman will respond to until you actually try to have sex with her. Some women get bored with guys who don’t aggressively pursue them, for others, aggressive pursuit is a major turn-off. The only way to know for sure is to try. Try everything… figure out what works for you and the type of women you’re most interested in. Then capitalize on your success.
Thank you. You are right. You are saying a lot of things that I wish more people would say. Not every women has the same criteria over what they think makes a guy a jerk.
(Aggressive pursuit isn’t the same thing as getting a person in bed for casual sex at least as I see it-why does everyone seem to equate having sex with having a relationship? According to some people if you want to take a girl you are having sex with to the movies and other stuff then you are in a relationship-I just don’t get it. Doesn’t a relationship have to do with the feeling you have for a person rather than what you are doing with them)
Mark, as you’re seeing, no one (at least, no one female) can answer your question. No one can tell you “how to get laid,” despite the article title that promises exactly that.
All they can do is tell you what NOT to do–specifically, a long list of complaints about things that guys do that make them jerks. NO ONE will ever tell you specific, positive steps you can take to actually GET LAID; they will only deliver a lot of “don’ts” that tell you nothing.
The most frustrating are the ones who tell you things that you already know, through experience, DON’T WORK. Things like “be yourself, be honest, don’t go looking for sex in the first place, be nice and considerate”… all the stuff women SAY over and over that they want, but they don’t actually MEAN. It’s a frustrating situation to be in, and it comes with the Y chromosome.
I don’t have any helpful tips for you either, Mark. Sorry. Only this particular exchange has had anything useful at all, and that boils down to “get over your fear of rejection and get out there dating as much as possible.” You’ll still get rejected– a LOT. And it will hurt–a LOT. But there’s no other way as long as the Mating Game rules are still in effect.
Dear Lord, the good men project is devolving into some misandric nonsense. At least post another “letter” that tells women to control THEIR primal urges NOT to sleep with “jerks” no? Not just two sentences on how “women can be manipulative too!”? Or does that not merit a full article?
Okay let me put the question in a more direct and concrete way. Maybe people can answer that question.
Just what precisely ARE the things that women consider asshole behavior with regard to men and sex?
One reason I don’t know is that the statements about asshole male behavior are frequently vague and confusing..
For example, the following statement is along the lines of one I have heard numerous times. I think that statements such as this might be the reason I feel nervous and cautious about initiating sex.
The statement is: “He thinks I am easy, well he isn’t going to get into my pants!”
But what does such a proclamation even mean? I could parse it in so many ways. Could it be that for such a person who would make such a remark that they are simply opposed to ANY form of casual sex and hence I should expect such a thing from that person? I don’t know. I don’t have a clue what “easy” even means.
You know I am the sort of person that looks over one of Hugo Schwyzer article about how a man shouldn’t count a womans “number” and instinctively I already agree with thesis not because I need an explanation but because the idea that something as dumb and random as a “number” means anything is beyond me. Not being judgmental about such a thing seems like the logical and moral default.
The above “statement” makes me feel uncomfortable initiating sex because it sounds like it could be applied to situations where I have been inclined to make a move. I don’t understand what “easy” means or why its bad.
My question has a lot of nuance so when you answer it please stick around to discuss it as I will likely feel the need to clarify any misunderstandings.
I don’t know if I can completely answer your question but I often feared that a man who thought I was “easy” would not care about me as a person but would only see me as a booty call. I slept with a guy once when I was 22, a friend of a friend. It was the first time I ever had a one night stand. I was leaving for grad school in a week so it was kind of a fling. I felt a bit slutty afterwards but I left for school and did’t think about him much after that. Over a year later, he called me out of the blue (he got my number from our mutual friend) and wanted to see me. I met him for coffee and he almost immediately started to pressure me to go back to my place. Clearly he thought I was “easy” and that I would be eager to just hop in bed with him again after not seeing or hearing from him ONCE after that night we spent together. that was an asshole move, and I felt hurt and offended that he would have such a poor opinion of my character. I told him I didnt want to go back to my place but we could get together again, but he left in a huff and never called me. So, that’s the kind of thing I worry about. The whole experience left me feeling trashy.
Thank you Jill. I had wandered if “easy” meant “doesn’t care for me as a person.”
Men are taught. (or at least I felt like I was taught) that making a move under the wrong circumstances is a BAD thing. But when I ask about what wrong circumstances are bad, it seems like people wont give me a clear answer about what those wrong circumstances are. So it makes me wander if my perception that I am being taught that it’s bad to make moves under certain circumstances is just all in my head. But certainly there are circumstances that do piss women off?
Some women have said something along the lines of “I want a guy to at least get to know me before he tries to have sex with me.” That actually seems like it’s very clear and helpful, it just makes me wander how universal that opinion is and on the other hand what if the guy just got to know you with only sex in mind? If that is the case then I wish an understanding that was more along those lines was instilled in me at an earlier age.
And what if a guy were to try to have a one night stand at a bar, and at the same time he seemed like he liked the woman?
Is liking the woman the criteria that defines being a jerk from not being a jerk?
(I don’t know why I feel like what defines being a jerk from not being a jerk is so obscure-maybe it isn’t but somehow I didn’t pick up on that social message)
You wrote:
“I don’t know if I can completely answer your question but I often feared that a man who thought I was “easy” would not care about me as a person but would only see me as a booty call”: That seems to suggest the idea that what defines the difference between being a
I am trying to find resources on getting laid at the library and at bookstores throughout my town that would help me understand the underlying ethos better in a way that makes me more realistically assess how my sexual attempts will be perceived. However every book on that subject is from those PUA pamphlets and frankly I don’t trust a word that those books tell me.
What I am told with clarity is that you can’t try to procure one-night-stands in bars without making some women angry. However not ALL women are angered by such a move. So if you want to not look like a jerk and get one night stands at bars you can’t, but that does not seem like it’s as bad to me because at least I know why I would be called a jerk because I know the parameters of social expectations at least with regard to that specific circumstance.
However I don’t know why anyone would want a one-night-stand without contacting the person again because it seems like its polite and proper to at least make SOME kind of contact with a person you slept with afterwards if only to touch bases.
While I have responded to Jill with this post anyone is free to respond and comment to make a discussion about this. Thank you.
Mark,
I think to a great degree, a jerk is in the eye of the beholder. I think many guys perceive women pursuing men who they (the guys) perceive as being as being jerks, but it’s also important to realize that the women in question probably do not see it that way. They think the guy is fun, exciting, interesting, physically attractive, etc.; they may be impressed with his social status or money; they may see him as a challenge; they may be looking for a certain kind of guy who will be impressive to their peer group (a key factor most guys are totally unaware of); they may be rebelling against their parents by dating a bad boy; they may have low self esteem and are repeating bad relationships from their childhood; they may be lying to themselves about what this guy is really like (very common); they may have abysmally poor judgment… The list goes on. There are a lot of factors at play. Attraction is not simple.
As to what makes a guy a “jerk” I suppose when you get right down to it, most people mean a combination of traits like aggressiveness, dishonesty and selfishness. For example, making a beautiful woman your girlfriend for purposes of sex and social status, rather than genuine affection for her, and then cheating on her would be jerky. (I think this is often what guys mean when they complain “women like jerks”). Unfortunately, traits like aggressiveness, dishonesty and selfishness in a person who is extroverted, socially astute and charming can seem like positive qualities such as confidence, street smarts and ambition. Women can blind themselves to a guy’s true nature very easily ( just as guys blind themselves to a woman’s negative qualities if they are attracted to her). You can see this in women who marry a guy they must know is a total hound dog (Tiger Woods, for ex.) then they are shocked when he cheats on them.
Some of the PUA stuff I’ve read talks about learning t be total honest with women about your goals so there are no hurt feelings. In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you. If you are upfront in that way, some women will be offended but some will accept your offer. My issue with PUA techniques is I’m not sure how many guys get to the point of radical honesty. Instead they are using the techniques to create an illusion of connection and emotional rapport, like a good car salesman, trial lawyer or politician. That may work but it’s cruel. I read an article once by a woman who worked as a personal assistant for a PUA guru and she talked about seeing a lot of cruelty by the men in this guy’s PUA circle and a lot of emotional damage to the women who were PUA “targets” — women calling desperately in tears and so on. So I would say those guys are jerks.
Finally, I know this post is getting long, but I would not necessarily think that a guy who hits on me and clearly wants sex is a jerk. I may be annoyed, or flattered, depending on the circumstances, but hitting on women is not in itself jerky. In my one night stand back when I was 22, I didn’t think the guy was a jerk for wanting sex. I didn’t really expect him to call (although it would have been nice). What was jerky was showing up a year later expecting immediate sex, and then being a jerk about it (leaving in a huff) when I wanted to get to reacquainted first.
I think the trick to hitting on women is knowing when to play your cards. If you do it too soon, before you have made an emotional connection AND the woman is attracted to you, you will always get rejected. That is the mistake most guys make. Also, you need both the emotional connection and the attraction, if you only have one or the other, she won’t want sex. “Nice guys” end up with emotional connection but no attraction, while some physically attractive guys who think they are doing everything right will strike out because they hit on women before establishing that connection. Jerks who are charming can succeed at both. It is also possible to succeed at both without being a jerk — I.e. without sociopathic qualities (dishonesty, manipulation, selfishness). That’s the issue in a nutshell.
Some more thoughts on this– I don’t know if you watched the show “The Sopranos” but there is an interesting plot line in the 3rd season (I think) involving Tony Soprano’s daughter Meadow and her first year at Columbia University. The first two boyfriends she gets are both jerks in different ways. The characters on the show are always very nuanced (one reason it was such a good show) and it is interesting to ask why Meadow makes the choices she does. The first guy, Noah, is an arrogant asshole and not particularly good looking, but Meadow falls for him for several reasons. (1) Narcissism– Noah is an intellectual and an academic super achiever. Meadow sees herself as superior to the anti-intellectual New Jersey mafioso she grew up with, and dating Noah makes her feel smart. (2) Rebellion — Noah is half Black and half Jewish and that drives Tony Soprano crazy. So she gets to fight with her dad, call him a racist and feel superior. (3) Unwarranted idealization — Noah is incredibly self centered, but he goes out of his way (at first) to be kind to Meadow’s neurotic, emotionally needy roommate, in order to impress Meadow. Ultimately, Noah shows his true colors and abruptly dumps Meadow.
Meadow’s second boyfriend,Jackie Jr., is the polar opposite of Noah. He’s the son of one of Tony’s mafia cohorts. He’s good looking and charming but dumb as a post. He’s selling drugs while lying about attending college and scheming to get involved in the family “business” (which Tony is trying to keep him out of). Let’s just say it ends badly. Why does Meadow fall for him? (1) Emotional connection – he understands her background, he’s charming and very affectionate. (2) Physical attraction – the guy is hunky! (3) Manipulation – Meadow thinks he’s a normal college student and she has no idea what’s really going on. He’s only using her to get close to Tony. (4) Rebound from Noah – here’s an unintellectual guy (unlike Noah) who her dad will approve of! Ironically, Tony knows exactly what’s going on with Jackie Jr., but he has to maintain a facade of a loving type of uncle. Meadow only finds out what Jackie Jr. Is really like when he gets pissed at her when she doesn’t want to have sex when she’s sick with the flu, and she catches him with a hooker later that evening. She breaks up with him but still moans that “he was really great” while lying in the college health center, sobbing with self pity.
So those are two vignettes that show the various reasons women might have for falling for guys who are “jerks.” It’s a lot more complex that just saying “all women like jerks” or “only jerks get laid.” I guess my key point is that Meadow didn’t realize that Noah and Jackie Jr. were jerks, she thought they were great guys. And what she liked about them were the qualities that non-jerks can possess as easily as jerks do. You can be an ambitious intellectual without being a jerk; you can be a fun loving party boy without being a jerk; you can be genuinely kind to children and old people or your girlfriend’s neurotic roommate without being a jerk; you can be assertive about wanting sex without being a jerk. Etc.
That a lot of stuff about PUA techniques and why women want or seem to want jerks. For now, I am not interested in that subject.
Some things I have picked up from what you wrote.
1.
“In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you.”
- Yes, this is good!!! I guess the problem with being upfront is that you can’t be upfront too soon but then if aren’t upfront you are leading her on. The solution generally proposed to me is to not try to get to know girls with sex in mind but rather just get to know them and what happens happens, I guess.
Right now I am asking this girl out for coffee and I am not sure what kind of relationship I want with her but sex IS on my mind and now I feel all weird about it. Like I am being a douche bag. I ask her for coffee and she said she was really tired from work she will call me back, and I don’t know if she will call me back but now I think I will call her back if she doesn’t call me around Thursday and ask her if she wants to go to Karaoke this Friday. And I feel weird about it because I did not know how to show sexual energy from the get go. I also don’t even know it it’s per se a date because it’s a neighbor I just met and I think it’s more of an “introduction” and hang out than a “date”. I feel all weird about doing this for sex but am I really “bad” or do I just not know how to communicate myself?
2..” If you are upfront in that way, some women will be offended but some will accept your offer. ”
Ok, Thank You!. I really need to know this one. The idea that some women are offended and some aren’t is important to me because,there here is this fear that if I do have a woman who is offended I should take it personally as something that is about ME rather than just how that particular woman perceives casual sex.
3.”I would not necessarily think that a guy who hits on me and clearly wants sex is a jerk. I may be annoyed, or flattered, depending on the circumstances, but hitting on women is not in itself jerky. ”
.Okay, this IS very helpful. Am I an idiot for growing up thinking that women are necessarily offended if a guy hit’s on them (okay if not an “idiot” – very out of touch)
The only thing is I don’t know how to “hit on” a woman I just met in a subtle way that indicates “yeah it’s about sex though maybe more” but lets see how things work over coffee.”
The other day I was at a bar and I was looking for sex but it had to be with the right person and it had to be mutual fun and not necessarily just for one night. So anyways my friend tells me to introduce myself to the two gals sitting next to me. I do and drop in the line “hello” yep “hello” and then this gal gives me the most nasty and melodramatic frown and then says “we already have boyfriend.”. It stuff like that that* gives me the impression that women do not like to be hit on at all because even the slightest and most subtle expression of the possibility of sex ***in my experience”**** makes women respond negatively, but I guess I am wrong? Huh. That is interesting? Anyways other people have told me that she was being a bitch.
Thanks for the responses.
1.
“In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you.”
=========
I think this needs more illumination. Disregarding large group scenes like parties or weddings (in which you should just be respectful–but don’t be afraid to maintain eye contact–the more beautiful, the more important it is to maintain eye contact).
However, if you are in a club or on a date, then know this:
Every women in the U.S. knows that the primary (not only but always in the top 3, and for most guys the #1) reason they go on a date or club is for sex with a woman.
So, while you want to be respectful, DON’T BE A COWARD!
You have to:
A) maintain eye contact
B) be jovial (when she asks what you do say something off-the-wall like you’re a professional shoe tier. This especially works well in large groups, it will make you the class nerd and will garner comradeship from every1)
C) don’t be afraid to touch her in little ways: on the small of the back when entering a room/holding a door for her, on the thigh (whether skirt or pants) when making a point, the back of the neck (pretend to brush something off if necessary), caress her forearms.
D) flirt, lightly tease her (about profession, clothes, whatever) I like the line for you to say to her “are you trying to get me drunk to have your way with me?” because it kind of switches the gender roles, and shakes things up.
E) if the moment feels right (to kiss, or whatever) try. You’re better off to TRY and told you rushed things, then to not try.
Women (especially the beautiful ones) KNOW you want to have sex with them.
Let them know she can decide when the time is right, but she has to know that YOU ARE A SEXUAL MAN, and that SHE TURNS YOU ON.
Typically if you fail to do this (no matter how much rapport you built) you will be stuck in the “friend zone” (on balance–there are always exceptions).
Women want men who are AT EASE with women and who are NOT AFRAID to let women know what they want.
In other words being up front DOES NOT MEAN saying “I just want sex, then see where we go from there” at any time during the first date (from the dept of duh, I guess but I thought it needed saying).
Also, as I mentioned earlier up thread: enhance your non-sexual achievements/interests/hobbies.
Go hang gliding, nature trail walking, cave spelunking. Take a public speaking class.
Women like men who are at ease with both sexes.
Mark, John D’s comments are great. He’s right, women know if a guy is talking to them in a bar, he probably wants sex. It’s not a surprise. Don’t feel bad that you have sex on your mind, most people do (including women). Focus on talking to everyone and being friendly and having a good time no matter what the social situation. Women do want a guy who at ease with himself and her. Be friendly and casual.
The woman in the bar who was rude to you sounds like a bitch. However, some women get hit on a lot and they get cranky and quickly push guys away because it’s just too much hassle. They are afraid of getting stuck talking to a guy who is annoying and won’t leave. They don’t know you, so they don’t know you will be annoying, it’s just their experience with 90% of the guys who approach them in bars. You are right that it wasn’t personal. Just move on and like I said, try to be friendly and casual with everyone.
If you are shy then work on your social skills by getting involved in activities where you can practice socializing without the pressure of trying to meet women in a bar. Take ballroom dancing or sailing or cooking classes or whatever. Just get out and meet people and talk to them, guys, whether they are older women, women you aren’t attracted to, clerks at the store, everybody! It’s a learned skill.
John, I have to be frank and admit that I am very wary about touching a girl in a sexual way without her permission, although Jill seems to agree with your advice. I recently saw a PUA vid where it recommends that if you get a hard on to let her know by brushing it against her. That only seems sexy to my own perverted self, it’s unbelievable based on everything I know that that’s considered good advice. And yet their was an article that positively appraised them at Salon.com.
Jill, you make it sound so simple and it’s almost if your too good to be true. I’ve talked to a lot other women on the internet about these questions and I haven’t gotten answers as clear as i’ve gotten from you.
Can I ask you if you work for anything related to the PUA movement? Sorry if I am being suspicious but there are a lot of these boards and it seems like most of them having people working for those kinds of agencies .
What made you interested in responding to my questions?
A lot of those books for PUA get sold and I guess it’s a multimillion dollar industry.
Mark:
Jill ripped me up 1 side & down the other a few pages back (or maybe on a diff article). I’m actually fairly surprised she agreed with me.
(A lot of PUA do not involve manipulation, but rather how to carry yourself. Also most of PUA is useless unless you get out and try it. The difference between PUA’s and average men is not their success rate. It’s that PUA’s make DOZENS of approaches per week)
You need to build a good solid foundation of building your personal interests and building your speaking skills/comfortableness with speaking to both sexes alongside with any dating/relationship specific skills–they are part and parcel of the same thing.
Women like men who:
A) are relaxed and calm
B) are comfortable with themselves
C) are comfortable speaking to (and can command the attention of) both sexes and regale them with humorous or interesting stories
D) are not afraid to flirt and touch in minor ways
On the touching subject: WOAH! You need to slow the car before you crash.
When I say touch women: I am not talking about sexual touching. I am talking about building a rapport with personal touching.
I’m also not talking about putting any part of your genitals (clothed or not) on any part of them. I am also not talking about touching any part of her genitals/breasts.
I am talking about personal touching featherlight caresses on: the small of the back when she passes in front of you, her thigh/knee when you’re talking, brushing her hair out of her face, etc..
This is why you should try to sit at a round table on a 1st date–not square. Square table gives you two options: across (much harder to work intimate touching) and invading her personal space & giving both of you a crick in the neck. Round tables let’s you be close, while not squished together.
Also, if you are looking for a quality woman, don’t go to a club. Meet women at church, book of the month club, singles bowling, or at the book store.
Basically, women who go to clubs are at an age in their life (on average but not always) who are simply planning on using men’s sexual needs against them to score free drinks–they’re typically (again there are exceptions) not the more dependable type of women upon which to build a long term relationship (if that is your goal).
Also, women in clubs have (what are called in PUA jargon) their “b1tch shields” up and on full alert.
It’s actually better to approach women in other spaces.
If you go to citizen renegade, there is a weblink for an E-book on “day game” that sounds like it would be perfect for you.
You might have to page back 5 or 6 pages of articles. Also, I would look up Athol Kay’s relationship game. After you are involved for what will hopefully be a LTR, this sight is very nice for maintaining teasing & good dynamics.
Hope this helps.
Jill was mad that I even mentioned PUA.
Yeah I probably did jump all over you for it
although I don’t remember the specific comment now. Usually I get irritated when guys use PUA teachings to stereotype female behavior — “all women like X and all women do Y because of Z, end of story” — like PUA is the revealed gospel. For example, using PUA to “prove” that women like to mate with “alpha males” and reject “beta males” (whatever those are), hence men (supposedly) need to act like jerks to get laid. Which I don’t believe is true.
LOL, John is right, I actually don’t like a lot of the PUA stuff. They have some tidbits of good insights about how to approach women effectively, but 90% of what’s out there is really awful. There are some really questionable “gurus” and wannabe gurus trying to make a buck and a lot of bloggers and other idiots posting a lot of crap. Rub your hard-on against a woman? That’s a freakin’ terrible idea. Please don’t do that unless you have been making out for, I don’t know, at least 30 minutes, and she’s clearly into it. In casual conversation? Uh, no. That could get you arrested or at the very least, thrown out of the club.
I once read some of the more advanced PUA literature and at the highest level, it seems like more of a self-help/lifestyle movement along the line of Tony Robbins (for example). The big difference being that PUA focuses on the idea that sexual conquests are the key to general personal success and effectiveness, which is kind of odd when you think about it, but that’s what they are selling.
Anyway, most PUA’s and guys studying to be PUA’s are not at an advanced level. Many of them who blog and post comments on the topic seem to be very angry at women. A lot of men learn a few PUA tricks so they can, yes, be manipulative jerks and, I don’t know, get back at the cheerleaders who snubbed them in high school. I could probably go on quite a while here (like about their misuse of evolutionary psychology) but I will refrain. Maybe the biggest criticism most people would level is that PUA training is not that effective for most guys and it’s a waste of money.
That said, if you can use some PUA advice to improve your ability to interact with women WITHOUT being a jerk about it, then that’s a win-win. If you want to know what I mean by being a jerk, see my previous comments!
Well they were vague but I think they were referring to a dirty dancing situation at a club. Then it vaguely depends on how nasty the dancing maybe but they didnt make that clear so it sounded crazy
But according to this “guys ask girls” website page where a guy asks if brushing up a boner when dancing is okay nearly every girl seems to be stoked about a guys boner. I don’t get whats going on. Is this for real?
http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Sexuality-Questions/61180-if-a-guy-and-girl-are-flirting-touching-is-it-a.html.
“Rub your hard-on against a woman? That’s a freakin’ terrible idea. Please don’t do that unless you have been making out for, I don’t know, at least 30 minutes, and she’s clearly into it. In casual conversation? ”
This is actually more than I know so its good needed advice for me at least that its not bad brushing a boner after 30 minutes of making out . “Please don’t do that unless you have been making out for, I don’t know, at least 30 minutes, and she’s clearly into it. In casual conversation? Uh, no. That could get you arrested or at the very least, thrown out of the club.
Jesus Jill who are you then?! Lol seriously, your giving very straightforward advice,.You are in grad school? Is it some sort sort of feminist/women studies degree?
So how do you hit on a gal for sex while being subtle or not crude?
Hi Mark, no I’m not an expert in feminism or woman’s studies, mostly I’m just speaking from my life experience. I’m 44 and I’ve got, well, just a few years of dating and being single and having relationships.
I went to clubs a lot with friends when I was in my 20′s although that is not my kind of scene now. A few years ago, I became single again after being in a relationship for 7 years and I was feeling really lost so I started reading stuff in the Internet and that’s how I discovered the PUA movement. I was kind of horrified, actually, and I ended up read a lot about it. I’ve had guys try to use PUA moves on me, even at my advanced age, LOL. That said, I know how tough it is to be single and how hard it is to find someone whether you are looking for a fling or a LTR. I know a lot of guys use PUA because they don’t know what else to do to approach women. I know what women can be like, and honestly, I find it hard to deal with other women sometimes. The super attractive cheerleader/alpha girls treated me like crap in high school too, because I was a girl nerd. I joke that I could never be a lesbian because women are too much work.
Anyway, on the dirty dancing thing, you have to be careful with that, most of the girls who posted comments on that link referred to being turned on when they are already feeling close and flirting with the guy. You have to read the situation.
Basically like I said earlier, if you have an emotional connection and the woman is attracted to you, then things are a lot different. The mistake men make is trying to get sexual before both of those things happen. I don’t think it matters so much how or what you say if you have an emotional connection and she’s attracted. Before that, whether you are subtle or overt, she won’t be interested. If you are too explicit she may get grossed out or offended and if you are too subtle she will just ignore your signals. So work on building an emotional connection and getting her to feel attracted first. Some of the useful stuff the PUA’s teach talks about reading body language and non-verbal cues, how to talk to women in a way that’s light and casual, how to judge accurately how she is responding etc. You can also learn much of the same stuff from non-PUA’s. A lot of what PUA’s do to create rapport and so on is the same kind of thing that has been taught in sales for decades. That’s where a lot of it comes from originally. The self help part of the PUA movement is based on NLP psychology.
Maybe you should think about hiring a personal dating coach — I have a friend who did that and thought it was helpful. Other than that, work on social skills by being involved in a lot of different activities and talking to everyone you meet.
Mark:
First off:
If you’re under the impression you’re going to get sex with a woman with only 10 minutes of time, you’re in for a rude awakening. There are the odd stories about love/lust at first sight, but this is rare. It is EXTREMELY RARE for a woman to want to jump a man’s bones at first sight. Women are simply not into looks as much as men–therefore a man has to be in the 99th percentile of looks to pull this off, and it is only with about 5% of women who are most cued into looks. Looks is not the #1 BAROMETER of what makes a man do-able. I’m not even sure it’s in the top 3.
This means you will have to put in substantial time rapport-building no matter what the venue.
You have to build rapport. Women need to feel comfortable with the guy (#1), and she’s only going to want to bed you if you prove yourself a better class of man (#2).
PUA is about faking confidence (until your success with women builds real confidence) and building rapport, making the woman trust that you’re an examplary male worthy of her affections.
I have said a number of times: in addition to pickup skills, you need to be building life interests that make you an INTERESTING and NOTABLE person who others will raptly listen to your stories.
You need to be FIRST among both sexes (not necessarily a leader, but a person people don’t interrupt and disrespect). Women like men other men respect. Building good speaking skills, and rich interesting hobbies/interests will probably get you farther with women then PUA if (IF) you’re looking for a LTR.
The reason being is that if you don’t build up those other skills, you will essentially be a fraud. You’ll have pickup skills to make women think you’re an examplary person, but with no meat to back it up.
If you’re looking to score with lots of women in less serious dates and short relationships then you can probably learn most of what you want in PUA.
Just for the record: when I was talking about touching, I was talking about in public social touching. I’m of an older generation (mid 40′s) and tend to think of dating as DATES, or get-togethers from work at a place like Buffalo Wild Wings.
In any event, the touching I was talking about was public social. Not sex tricks (on the dance floor or in private). In truth when it comes to sex tricks, I wouldn’t know that many and from what I hear there is no universal knock-em dead sex trick because women are so different in sexuality.
As I mentioned, in addition to life interests and good speaking in general (which will help you in life dealing with both sexes and in general with success) when out with a women (in a social environment) the two most important things are:
Let her know you’re a sexual person (non vocally) w/eye contact & flirting/teasing, and let her know you find her attractive!
Respect is all and good, but if you DON’T DISPLAY AN INTEREST, then she will think she turns you off.
Men are burdened with not only approaching, but reading all the social cues just right. When in doubt–do it! If you suspect she’s ready for a kiss, then go for it. It’s better to try and be told to slow down, then to think you’re NOT INTERESTED!
You will not get women’s affections by “playing safe”. Why? Because that’s what all the other guys do and it makes you as attractive as a doorknob.
Jill,
As far as PUA’s being angry at women–I think that’s somewhat true for the older men (40′s and up) who are divorced (1 or 2 times) and are mad at their exes. But, I think they are also mad at themselves.
From what I have seen on the boards, the older divorced members of PUA seem to be mad at themselves because if they had understood what makes a women feel attraction EARLIER, they might have saved their marriages.
Also, as you get deeper into PUA (whether you agree or disagree) there seems to be a lot of proof for the PUA rules about females engagement with men:
A) that as women have less need for financial support they have been freed from the need to make smart decisions in mates.
Many women in their 20′s will waste YEARS trying to convince a smooth-talking ahole (who has an inflated ego w/no accomplishments to back it up) who treats her like crap and cheats on her, over a respectful man with a strong work ethic who is “going places” in terms of a future. Many millions of women are thinking with their libido just as men do.
B) women’s attraction markers make no sense for her or her kids (when she lets PURELY ATTRACTION make her decisions). She will live with losers & their abuse and have his kids, but refuses to pass on the genes of a much superior (by all objective measures) male, because he can’t pass a few shit-tests.
The greater the % of women who make decisions based SOLELY upon attraction (and for each new generation of women in their 20′s it seems to be getting very high), the more PUA community is on the money when they talk about women being:
Loyal-less, alpha banging, beta-crushing (and cheating) narcissists.
I remember reading an article about a woman at a stadium at a minnesota stadium who had sex with a man in the men’s restroom. When the cops arrested both of them, she claimed he spiked her drink.
Her fiance (not the man she screwed) and friends vouched for her saying that she was a respected member of the church and community.
The simple fact is she saw a tatted-up bad-boy ex-con (or whatever) and was probably drunk and thought with only her libido.
The stark naked truth nobody wants to address is that:
A) unbridled female sexuality can be harmful too
B) it’s just as destructive to relationships, marriages and children to have women thinking with only their libido as it is for men.
And yet, in counter-point to the many narratives of rules and strictures for men, we have the TOTAL OPPOSITE narrative for women. Whatever feels right she should do. It’s even ensconced in popular culture that women can do wtf they want anytime they want (i.e. listen to “Bitch” by Alannis Morrisette).
A lot of these older men once or twice divorced I am sure are bitter, as their exes divorced them based solely on the “heat” leaking out of their marriage, despite the men complying with everything the wives wanted. I am sure they feel quite entitled to pump and dump women, if the vast majority of women (in their view) are ONLY about titillation, and are willing to use men and break their hearts to achieve that end–the fact that millions of women no longer value a “good man” entitles them to be bad too (just like women) to get what they want too.
The simple fact is men SHOULD STAND THEIR GROUND on bullsh1t. For evolutionary reasons, or culture or whatever, VERY NEARLY ALL women DO shit-test. The men who know this and pass with flying colors will save their marriages and relationships, and keep the heat kindled.
Also, the younger men are not angry. I believe they are smartly looking at their older male family members who are getting raked over the coals in divorce court (and losing contact with their kids), for no more reason than complying with their wives every nag and complaint (ensuring their wives loss of respect and loss of attraction). Nothing dries a vagina faster than a man who buckles like a belt to a woman’s tiniest whim.
The more of a ME ME ME culture we have (especially for women), the more accurate do PUA members become. But PUA is just a symptom–not the disease. Shaming PUA members isn’t going to stop the shark tank that american dating has become.
Reforming family court to be gender neutral (instead of mothers winning sole custody THIRTEEN TIMES AS OFTEN as fathers) would be a step in the right direction.
Anybody who wants to restore some normalcy and respect for women (from men) and respect for “good men”, should join onto fathersandfamilies email list and join their action campaigns when they release information by email.
Well John, I don’t agree with everything you say but I agree we live in the Age of Narcissism. However, that is not the fault of women only or men only. I am old enough to be clutching my pearls occasionally about the “younger generation.” However, I would argue that sexual liberation of women and specifically “hookup culture” has benefitted men enormously by increasing opportunities for no-strings-attached sex, which would have been very very hard to find in previous generations (except maybe the late 1960′s). Plenty of men have certainly participated in and encouraged the creation of this culture we live in. Men control the majority of media and advertising which shapes a lot of our attitudes. The mainstreaming of the porn industry, which has created a generation of people steeped in explicit sexual imagery like none before in history, is largely controlled by men and fueled by dollars spent by men (for the most part).
Anyway it is a lot more complicated that women bad, men good, or men bad, women good. We are all participants in this culture. And our culture has become destructive to individuals on many levels. We’ve embraced absolute freedom of choice but we’ve forgotten how to make good decisions. We’ve allowed ourselves and out children to be brainwashed by mass media and advertising which is all about getting us to indulge ourselves and buy more stuff. I agree with you that women chasing “jerks” and men becoming PUA’s are symptoms of the same problems, although you and I might not agree on the specific causes or the solutions.
As for divorce laws, I agree, to the extent they favor women that is not right and should be changed.
First off I am not a jerk am I if I hit on a woman for sex and it’s obviously early because you know it’s the first 15 minutes? Because you say there is no way that is happening, okay I get it. (What about this coming Halloween when there are all those big Halloween parties coming up and everyone is dressing sexy?)
“Basically like I said earlier, if you have an emotional connection and the woman is attracted to you, then things are a lot different. The mistake men make is trying to get sexual before both of those things happen.”
But that gets into the whole paradox of leading somebody on right? If I hit on her right away it’s unlikely that I am going to be in the top 1 percent of ultra attractive charismatic guys where that works but can’t I let her know my intentions are basically sexual in a way that does work? Do you know what I am saying?
Jill:
Elite men participated in the destruction of men. That is about 1% of all men. Coincidentally, these elite men are the same ones who stood to gain with lots of care-free sex.
It you look at the movie Kramer vs Kramer that movie was about no-fault divorce. That movie was about 20 years ahead of it’s time. No-fault divorce was one of the worst pieces of legislation to rock this nation. And yet, it got almost no fanfare. It swept in silently, and changed things for the worse.
Under no fault divorce a bored wife can wreck the marriage through cheating, and still expect the house, custody, the lions share of assets, and a continuous nearly life-long supply of money, and the fathers parental rights flow through her permission only.
All men did not participate in this change. Only a tiny fraction of 1% of elite men who stood to gain from this did.
However, millions upon millions of women TAKE ADVANTAGE of mother-friendly divorce laws every year.
The culture follows the law. If it weren’t for family break-down and the shakiness of marriage (largely thanks to mother-biased divorce laws & female fickleness) marriage wouldn’t be such a dim prospect that dating becomes a serious option for men until late 30′s.
A 46,000 divorce 4state study says women initiate divorces 66% more often than men. The top 3 reasons given were different flavors of saying they were bored and that they knew they would get custody.
PUA is not the cause, but the symptom. Even were they magically to disappear, it would not make men marry in great numbers or stop the stem of divorces or remove the shark tank dating has become.
All it would do is cause lots of men who still believe in the old-style dependable good man to go without female companionship.
Mark:
At this point, we are getting into some really nitty gritty details that are really off-topic for this thread.
My advice:
Do the research I mentioned. Read the blogs, take a public speaking course, get some interesting hobbies/interests, etc..
Any advice given, may or may not work on the first women you try it on. I don’t want you to give up. Do the research. Invest in yourself (public speaking, interests, etc..).
If you want more advice, post your questions on citizen renegade. Often they are patient with newbies.
Mark – I will be blunt, if you are only interested in getting to know a woman for sex, and you want a “yes” within the first 15 minutes, you would be better off hiring a prostitute. The number of women who would be interested in saying “yes” to a sexual offer within 15 minutes of meeting you is astronomically small. It is statistically improbable that you will ever meet that woman. You have to be prepared to put some time and work into it even if you only want sex. Some of the PUA’s talk about achieving sex within 7 hours after meeting a woman, and even they are rarely successful. You have to give the woman the idea that you are a sexual person and someone she’d like to get to know, while working on building rapport. As to HOW you do that, well I hate sounding like I’m schilling for PUA’s because as I’ve previously said, there is a lot about them I don’t like, but honestly that’s a lot of what they focus on — methods for creating rapport and attraction. Some of these methods are sneaky and manipulative and can be used in unethical and creepy ways (like a car salesman learning to sell someone an expensive car that’s more than they can really afford) but other techniques are just good advice for being a likable person and making fun and interesting conversation. Other than that, I don’t know what other advice to give you…. It is just not that easy to find women to have casual sex with. Women are pickier than men and they are simply not as motivated as men are to have sex with the first person who is available. Unless they get to know you a little, they won’t be interested.
John – I think we will have to agree to disagree on a lot of what you say. One could argue that men benefitted from no fault divorce as much as women because now they can dump their wives when they get old and fat and replace them with younger women, which we all know men will do if they get a chance. Right? But that would be a gross oversimplification, just like saying that women are out having rampant sex and cheating and dumping their husbands is a gross oversimplification.
I don’t think you can blame all the ills of society on feminism or women’s equality or no fault divorce. Again, we will have to agree to disagree.
“I will be blunt, if you are only interested in getting to know a woman for sex, and you want a “yes” within the first 15 minutes, you would be better off hiring a prostitute. The number of women who would be interested in saying “yes” to a sexual offer within 15 minutes of meeting you is astronomically small. It is statistically improbable that you will ever meet that woman.”
Jill I didn’t really say I wanted to get to yes in 15 minutes. That would be good if it was possible though. I think I must have misstated something or a particular subtlety wasn’t conveyed. 15 minute is fast for a direct answer I totally agree based on my experience and everything I know that that isn’t going to work even in a bar situation, (not in 15 minutes!)but when I say “hit on somebody for sex” within 15 minutes what I meant was convey my sexual interest within 15 minutes. Besides weren’t you saying earlier that it was perfectly normal for guys in bars to be looking for sex? Do you see the subtle (but important) distinction? How do you do that? Or can you do that?
Words are confusing and I feel like were tripping over each other.
“It is just not that easy to find women to have casual sex with” – How can it be that hard when so many woman have casual sex? A study shows that 1/3 of relationships in Chicago are non-exclusive. Another study shows that half of all college students have had “friends with benefits” relationships. Hmmmm, not to get into an argument. I don’t know just pointing those things out.
A couple of weeks a girl came up to me while I was walking down the street outside a bar with a friend and me and the gal started making out right away with hardly any words to preface it (nothing hardcore-okay it was kissing on the lips) (I have pictures. I can prove it.) And that’s incident seemed to me like it was part of what’s called the “Hook up culture” -in other words it was no myth. But I could be wrong.
Thank you for your responses
Mark, I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were asking if you could ask a woman for sex or tell you that you are interested in sex within 15 minutes. That seemed a little optimistic! So yes you need to give her the idea you are interested pretty quickly — that’s the art of flirting.
I do think it is tough to get casual sex. There may be a lot of women having sex, but you have to be the guy they want to have sex with. That’s the tough part, that’s the part you have to work at!
I’m not part of today’s hookup culture so I don’t know how it works. Things still may be easier now, I don’t know. I don’t think you can expect girls to fall in your lap every day.
But maybe on the upside, it is easier to find women who are willing hookup than it used to be. So you have reason for optimism. Just get out there and meet as many women as you can, whenever you can.
Sorry, typing in my phone, meant to say you need to learn the art of flirting because that’s how you show interest in sex without coming out and saying it within 15 minutes.
Okay Jill so you flirt within the first 15 minutes to show an interest in casual sex? But I have to be psychic to know how to do that? John gave some advise about light touching. Is it the sort of thing where if I make compliments of a more physical nature?
So when I think you were saying strangers have hit on you for sex and you weren’t offended it was more like “suggestive flirting” than something more direct?
Hi Mark, you have to read the situation, but yes, if you are interested in a woman you should probably start flirting right away and see how it goes. You are correct, when I mentioned earlier that I wasn’t offended by being hit on by strangers, I was mainly talking about suggestive flirting. No one has ever flat out asked for sex but guys have said things to me like, “Do you want to go someplace quieter than this with me?” or “I’m going home now, want to come with me?” etc. Once a guy asked me if I wanted to go sit in his van in the parking lot (I said no). I’m not sure how much specific advice I can give you about how to act in specific situations. You have to be able to read the cues. You don’t have to be a psychic but you have to be able to understand the signals that you are getting from the other person. Is she receptive to your advances or not? If not, then slow down, if yes, then you can proceed. When you are having a conversation with anyone, how do you tell if they are interested in what you are saying? It’s all body language, tone of voice, verbal responses etc. I think maybe a dating coach could help you come up with specific strategies, or maybe a dating skills class (not necessarily PUA) or a weekend singles seminar. I think you need to learn some strategies and then just start practicing.
Jill, When you wrote that men don’t ever ask for sex directly but instead say “want to come to my place” I did not know that for a long time. When men ask for advice on how to get laid some just mean very simple stuff like that and not the weirdly elaborate PUA schemes or their books full of philosophy and cheesy anecdotes but light on How-To.
What I don’t get is how you told me that casual sex is hard to come by and I guess you suggested a prostitute or maybe that was just for the “15 minute” bad idea. However when I look up prostitution on the net because I’ve thought about it (though the idea doesn’t exactly enthuse me for a number of reasons including experience) what I read from women is often something along the lines of “why would a guy ever go to a prostitute when there are so many women at bars giving it away for free” Are you disagreeing?
You know I just never knew until late that the house had such immediate sexual connotations. And it’s not hard to think why once you do become aware. The house just isn’t a safe place to be because of the threat of rape and as a result it becomes by default the place for sex and then a whole system of euphemism surrounds it.
Hi again Mark, boy it’s complicated. I’m sorry if some ofnthe things I said sound inconsistent. Is it easier than it’s ever been for guys to get casual sex? Probably yes because the stigma for women has declined (although it hasn’t disappeared). But guys still have to work to get casual sex, that’s what I meant by it being tough. I just read an article that said according to some researchers, only about 20% of men and 20% of women on college campuses are actively participating in “hookup culture.” So if that’s accurate it means 80%of the women you meet are not the types that will easily have casual sex. And of the 20% who are left, you have to convince them to pick you. So I just don’t want you to think it’s easy and beat yourself up because women are jumping into bed with you!
Jill:
One wrinkle:
I disagree that no fault divorce helped men in any way. When we had at-fault divorce the person who broke the marriage contract (through addiction, abuse, abandonment or adultery) got little assets and lost custody and if the primary breadwinner lost a sizable share of future earnings.
In other words a bored man (under past divorce laws) got punished.
With today’s divorce laws, the man gets punished whether at fault or not. In other words–a bored man divorcing achieves the same result under either law.
The difference is for women: With at-fault divorce law a wife divorcing due to boredom (or because SHE cheated) would have lost custody, gotten few assets and no child support (and probably greatly reduced alimony). But under today’s laws, women can divorce due to boredom OR because she cheated and receive MUCH BETTER outcomes than the past.
Where is this advantage for men that you mention? Please list exactly what this advantage is for men?
Mark:
I forgot until now, but another aspect of PUA is called by the acronym IOI. It stands for indicators of interests.
PUA books and web pages have a list of IOI, that help clue men into what are cues to search for that the woman is “into you”.
According to what I have read, these cues are often subconscious on the womens part. They are not deliberate. This will help you get in the loop of her attraction level.
You seem to be worried about making “the move”.
My point is that if you spend your time with the hints I gave (and further hints from these other sources) like rapport building, you won’t have to worry about one super-important “move”.
You and her will be having fun and bonding and she will show an interest. You won’t have to worry about when to make “the move”.
Jill:
Here is the link to that divorce study:
ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/
I strongly disagree with you about divorce. While this may sound bad of me to state: if women initiate 2/3′s of all divorces and state they are divorcing due to boredom & because they know they will get the kids (and considering that mothers DO get custody 13 times as often as fathers) this is important.
There is no reason these millions of mothers could not offer an olive branch to the fathers and agree to shared custody. I really believe that if divorce courts favored fathers the way they do mothers, a more generous portion of fathers would not take EVERYTHING THEY COULD GET under the law (when everybody admits the law is unjust). I think there would be a substantially larger segment of fathers who would volunteer to offer shared custody.
Men are raised to take care of women. Women are raised to be taken care of. But, now the culture says that women can use government as a bully by proxy to milk men, and keep their kids from the fathers.
There is VERY LITTLE NARRATIVE about moral compasses for women/mothers, or defining what a “good women” is. Quite clearly there needs to be. In fact, I think there is a much greater societal need to begin that dialog as opposed to the reams and reams of articles detailing what men need to do to be “good” or “usefull”.
The overwhelming narrative for women is she can do whatever the eff she wants the consequences be damned.
This is damaging to fathers, but it is MUCH MORE DAMAGING to children.
There are hundreds of studies which show children raised in fatherless homes do much more poorly in a number of areas.
There is a reason many more young men are choosing to be life-long adolescents. The idea of being a father and husband have literally been stolen by millions of fickle heartless women and their toadies in family court.
Marriage is now such a landmine for men, that younger generations of men are now wising up. They are also beginning to have a very mercenary view of women. Younger generations of men don’t feel obligated to do anything for women, because they are reflecting the vibe women have been giving them.
It’s all very sad. It’s bad for women, bad for men, (and both sexes are being predated upon by heartless lovers) and particularly bad for children.
John, I’ve seen that study cited a lot as “proof” that women divorce for frivolous reasons (“I’ve outgrown”). There are other studies out there. According to this one h ttp://www.smartmarriages.com/ams.pdf, the most common reasons for divorce cited by women were lack of commitment, too much conflict and arguing, infidelity, lack of equality, and married too young. The most common reasons cited by men were lack of commitment, too much conflict and arguing, infidelity, unrealistic expectations and married too young. In other words, the reasons are pretty similar. Respondents could give more than one reason: women cited 5 reasons on average, men cited 4. Women were much more likely to report infidelity (almost 60%) than men (around 47%) (unfortunately there is only a bar graph without the actual numbers). Over 40% of women and about 9% of men cited domestic violence.
The thing I’d, social surveys often have varying results and you cant’t just pick one survey.
The study was done by the National Fatherhood Initiative. The reasons for divorce chart is on page 23. Note it looks like the captions for the 2 charts on that page are reversed.
Hey Jill.
That link didn’t work.
Sorry, this is the link http://www.smartmarriages.com/nms.pdf
Hey Jill.
I don’t think this marriage study is stating what you think about divorce.
The only graph I can see which states a male & female bars for infidelity is actually titled:
Extent to Which Other Stated Reasons for Divorce
Predict Saying That Domestic Violence Was a Major Reason
In other words it has to do with predictors of DV being stated as a major reason based on the other reasons given–not upon the percentage of incidence of infidelity.
(Not to mention that simply stating Infidelity could be one on either party).
In addition if you look at the Last sentence of the First paragraph on page 23 it states:
“Only four women, less than two percent of all ever-divorced female
respondents, gave domestic violence as the only reason for their
divorce.”
If four women are 2% of the female divorced respondents that’s only 200 women. Additionally, this doesn’t tell us the reasons women seek divorce because this will include some women who’s HUSBANDS seeked the divorce.
Sorry, but this doesn’t work. The study I referenced was 46,000 divorces and referenced the reasons WOMEN sought divorces, not why they had divorces inflicted upon them.
I am going with the 46,000 respondent survey. Also, in the marriage survey you linked some 70% of respondents thought that marriage should be harder to end.
I’m sorry, but the simple fact is PUA has grown out of the destruction of marriage. To find the cause, you only have to see that the state has set itself up as competition to husbands (whether welfare, or insuring women’s good outcome of divorce even when she destroyed the marriage).
It seems women have bought into these new laws hook, line and sinker.
What we need is a double-barreled does of reform so the state no longer insulates women from their actions (i.e. treats women like adults just as we do men).
When we have that, we will have not only equality, but PUA will be a thing of the past.
The tables are confusing because they have the captions reversed. The 2nd table on that page shows the percentage or respondents who gave different reasons for divorce. 40% of women gave DV as one of several reasons.
My point is that it is very easy to find studies and surveys that support any view you want. Finding that other study took me all of 45 seconds on Google. I’m sure there are thousands of studies on the causes of divorce. You should’ rely on any one synopsis of any one study as “proof” of anything.
In the study you cite, some lawyers looked at 46,000 divorce records. It wasn’t a survey as far as I can tell. Did they get the causes of divorce solely from things people said in their legal papers? How accurate is that? Keep in mind those papers are usually written by lawyers. If there was a survey component, was it a scientific survey? How did they select participants? And so on. I don’t know the answers but those are questions I’d want answers to in deciding whether the results are valid.
Jill, the bar graph doesn’t state what you claimed.
Also:
* it’s not a study of why women initiate divorce, but a study of all divorces. i.e. many of these women had divorce initiated upon them
* the sample size of female divorcees was only 200
* since this is a study of 200 women divorced (including ex-hubby initiating) infidelity could mean cheating by either spouse, so even if the titles are switched this 70% infidelity rate means nothing to identify the rate women are CHEATED UPON
You stood this article up as a refutation of the study I linked that shows women call it quits in marriage for almost no reason. (The article I linked is the largest study EVER done of why women initiate–i.e. I didn’t fish for what I wanted to show).
As it stands, your linked study doesn’t refute anything. If you have something better please list it. Beliefs should be molded around objective reality. I’m not going to say you’re wrong necessarily because you want to believe whatever you want about divorce, but I would say that your beliefs should be shaped by objective reality.
On these forums I rarely post something I believe that aren’t backed up by evidence. And when I find something evidence-based that contradicts what I believe, I usually admit that I am wrong or that I have to hit the books again.
John, I’m not going to argue with you about the validity of one study vs. another, I really have no idea. I told you I spent 45 seconds on Google, I’m not writing a thesis on this. As I said, there are a lot of studies out there. The study YOU keep citing is actually synopsis, posted on a website, which has very little information about the actual study, except that it apparently involved a bunch of lawyers looking at divorce filings. I can’t tell from that how they reached their conclusions or whether their conclusions are valid, or whether the website is even reporting their findings accurately. Social science is a fuzzy science at best and you can poke holes in any one study. You are cherry picking one study and citing it as gospel. Sorry, I’m not buying.
Hey Jill:
If finding evidence to support your beliefs is only worth a maximum of 45 seconds, that’s your personal choice.
Here is the actual study reported on in the livestrong.com article.
Just some ideas:
Just because something is unpalatable doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It may be a craptastic message that the majority of this whole sh*tty ball of wax (the shark tank of dating and instability of marriage) can be laid to fickle women availing themselves of the intense female advantage in family courts but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
I think we’re raising our girls and boys in dysfunctional ways, but PARTICULARLY SO for girls. There are reams and reams of commentary about “a good man”. Our popular culture is overflowing with it: songs like “I’m holding out for a hero” and “Are you strong enough to be my man?”
Man up, be a real man, be a good man.
When have you ever heard of a comparable monologue about morality in women? When have society ever uttered the words “good woman” or “real woman”?
The message to men is to make themselves USEFUL. The message for women is that you can do whatever you want, the consequences be damned.
Is it really so unbelievable that when we raise women to be self-centered and to not be concerned about consequences that they stand up and deliver?
One of feminism’s battle cries is that women are shaped by modern media message (like telling girls they suck at math becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).
It’s time to start a conversation about “good women”. Things are reaching a critical mass, and we society can’t take much more of the kinds of injustices being inflicted upon fathers and children.
ht tp://www.unc.edu/courses/2006fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pd f
Mark:
Here’s how I actually go about getting laid without falling into “jerkish” behaviors.
1. Looks: Looks do matter A LOT to women — not as much as they do to men, but much more so than most women will lead you to believe. Get on a good workout plan (stronglifts 5×5, p90x, and crossfit are all good ones) and stick to it a minimum 5-6 hours per week. Learn about fashion — you don’t have to go crazy with this. I often have women tell me I’m the most fashionable guy they know, and I often go out with a plain-colored t-shirt, a nice, expensive pair of jeans, a leather jacket, some bracelets, and a pair of chelsea boots. The entire outfit costs less than $500, and all I have to do is switch out shirts and/or pants to create a different look. Whiten your teeth. Have a dentist do it if you can afford it. Expensive process, but gets immediate results. Make sure your personal hygiene is impeccable. I always have mints or sugarfree gum, chapstick, and a lighter on me, and a pair of condoms and a stick of deodorant in my car in case I run out and forget these things. Try on different hairstyles until you find one that works for you. These are basic things, but you’d be amazed how few guys do these things. It’s much easier to get laid if you look like a guy who gets laid.
2. Money: If you’re passed the age of 30 and not holding down a job in 50k range or better, forget about getting laid and focus on your career first. Sure, there are plenty of guys in their 30s who are getting laid without this kind of income, but they often have careers or lifestyles that put them in direct contact with lots of women. Once you have the money, use it to buy experiences and develop a lifestyle. Don’t spend money on “stuff,” with these exceptions — hobbies, art, household basics, and better and more fashionable clothing. Avoid long-term debt like the plague. Unless you’re married with children, there’s very little reason to have a mortgage or multi-year car note in this economy.
3. Hobbies and interests: Have at least one hobby that you can talk passionately at length about. This one is for you… so do whatever you want with it. Couple that with another hobby that has a high female interest or improves you physically. Yoga, rock-climbing, and running are great because they serve dual purposes here. Dabble in a variety of other hobbies just for the heck of it… this will give you a wide body of things to talk about when you’re interacting with women. Join a meet-up group (www.meetup.com). Go to where the women are. And don’t be afraid to ask them out on dates. Just don’t be the guy who asks every girl out on date. Wait for her to show some signs of interest before making a move, but move fast when she does.
4. Social skills: The four most important social skills you can have are 1) the ability to tell great stories, 2) the ability to make people laugh at will, 3) the ability to connect with people emotionally, and 4) game (knowledge of specific skills and techniques for building and maintaining attraction). For as much flack as PUA techniques gets on sites like GMP, most of the guys I know who are good with women use very little of it. If you master the first three skills, the only thing you’ll need to add is the confidence to make the first move. You can simplify the whole thing with one simple line: “You seem like [x]… I’d really like to do [y] with you.” I.e., “You seem like a lot of fun, I’d really like to take you out with me,” “You seem like you’d be a great kisser… let’s find out if that’s true.” It sounds cheesy on paper, but say it with confidence and you’ll be pleasantly surprised with your results.
5. Beliefs, attitude, and confidence: This is the most important piece, but also the hardest to master. If you want to get laid, you have to start believing that you’re the kind of guy who gets laid. The only real way to do that though is to become that guy. If you’ve never been that guy, then it will take you a while to get there, even after you start seeing some improvement in your results with women. Look at the four hours of work that I mentioned above, then start going to where women are and putting these things into practice. These things take time… you won’t become a lothario overnight. But the long-term results will be much more satisfying than dumping money into prostitutes and other unproductive pursuits.
Edit: “four hours of work (bullet point 5)” should read “four areas of work”
This makes a lot of sense to me.
Women do care about looks, especially if they’re looking for sex and not a relationship. Guys don’t have to do as much to look good as women, so you don’t have to be a hunk or know about fashion. You can probably go pretty far if you’re just neatly dressed and not overweight.
Having a career and hobbies/interest make people more interesting to others.
I don’t always agree with you, John D, but you make a lot of good points in this post. I can’t claim to speak for ALL women, just for what I’ve experienced and seen, which is how sites like this have to operate. Most people are coming here to get their own questions answered and to look at things from other people’s perspectives. They haven’t done exhaustive research on human behavior. I’ve said before–it’s human nature to have the chase be fun, especially when young, inexperienced, and not ready to settle down. So the PUA thing really might work with a lot of girls, but I’ve had it tried on me, and it’s been done very transparently. I actually had one guy who I later learned was studying PUA come up to me and say “everyone thinks you’re the hottest girl…I don’t think you’re THAT hot.” I gave a confused look and went on with my night. It always seem like the girls who fall for must be not that bright, too immature for a relationship anyways, or do it because they know the guy will be an easy lay (they know they can have sex with him without strings or attachment on either end). Learning not to pedestalize women and treat them as human beings with flaws is never bad advice, though.
I want women to initiate more, and just because I’ve experienced it a lot in my life, doesn’t mean it happens everywhere to everyone. I do very seriously want to advocate getting rid of the idea that women don’t/shouldn’t want sex and are to be ‘won’ as a prize instead of sex being a two way thing, and the women being seen as human. “Be sexy, but don’t be slutty,” everyone tells you. Act sexual but don’t actually take what you want. You’re right. A lot of women are very thin skinned (we have fragile egos too) and the idea that all men want sex all the time from everyone ever makes the fear of rejection even more difficult, implying that if you do get rejected you must be monsterously hideous. On top of that, now you’re a slut, and now you’re cheap and easy because you don’t give a shit about if he pays for anything, buys you anything, or marries you. I don’t know how to change those misconceptions, and I hope that women can get just the f*** over it and initiate sex and dating more. A lot of that will come from women not treating each other poorly and calling each other misogynistic slurs (thanks, Tina Fey
).
Also, you said before that feminists pedestalize women. Maybe they have in your experience. I certainly don’t. Most of my friends are male, and while I hate being ‘that girl’, I do get along better with men. I prefer to live with male roommates because I’ve had less trouble them in the past. Most of my few female friends’ friends are also male. I’ve heard a lot of the stuff that’s talked about on this site from them. That’s why this site resonates with me and I don’t only go to feminist sites made for women by women. I’ve posted on how much I love men and the beautiful male form in all of its shapes, sizes, colors, and heights. Feminism does address issues of homophobia, transphobia, racism, classism, double standards geared towards men (like that they can’t be good caretakers). They can’t do everything, though, and it’s natural for us to lean more towards issues that affect us–such as birth control options, sexual assault geared towards women (we very freely admit that your average men go through it too, but do focus on disabled women, trans women, women of color, in wars, and prisoners), ‘corrective’ rapes and assaults against lesbians in S. Africa, policing of our clothing, etc… Let’s hope that this site continues to grow and address more issues that seriously affect men without devolving into some sort of ‘I hate women and this is why’ bitchfest.
Aya,
As I’ve mentioned. I’m not actually a member of the PUA community. I’ve read a lot of their sights. I think that even an ethically responsible man could pick and choose from their webpages what to use.
I also think that they have a lot to use without being anit-woman.
Next: keep in mind that as with anything there are going to be men on the low end of the learning curve on PUA.
As those involved with PUA grow their skills, they get a much more nuanced level of negging.
It’s supposed to be about teasing, showing that you treat women like everybody else–while very subtly making sly points that you are the seeker rather than him. Another tactic is (and I forgot the acronym / specific term) is “taking yourself off the table” as a viable love interest of her (I think this would only work on more immature woman).
Example of a neg: “Are you trying to get me drunk so you can have your way with me?”
Example of taking yourself off the table: “I don’t think we would make a good couple at all, neither of us are the type of person to put up with shit”. This one is particularly good, because it compliments her, while removing yourself from the dating prospects. This will always add the spice of the forbidden fruit / don’t mess w/the fire or you’ll get burned concept.
The problem with this letter is that it is written as if sex was easily had; as if college was a non-stop lovefest where men could choose to have sex by acting nicely, or choose to have sex by acting like a dick, and for some inexplicable reason they are opting for the latter.
The truth of the matter is that very few men indeed have the confidence, attractiveness and social standing to have any great say in the women that are available to them or the manner in which they approach them. The men who “choose” to act like jerks almost always do so because they don’t know any other ways to get women to have sex with them. It’s desperation, not manipulation.
That is not to say that nothing can be done to fix the harmful ways in which men are approaching women. Volumes can and have been written on the ways in which men seek out women for relationships or sex, but very little has been written from a gender-egalitarian standpoint. I welcome advice of this nature wholeheartedly, but I can’t help but feel that perhaps this advice should really come from a man; somebody who’s been there, done that, and knows the challenges men really face in their sexual lives.
Good point.
Maybe the reason so many articles written by women tell men to cool their jets and say “hands off”, is because the passive sexual role WORKS for women to still acquire companionship.
THAT DOESN’T WORK for men. And it’s time for women to start understanding that.
I too would much rather see an article from the man’s point of view. Women have so many more options in dating that any article from a woman will most likely be deeply flawed.
I think the other reason women tell men to cool their jets is because too often the women are being approached by guys they don’t want to have sex with or not that fast.
Iris, I was speaking specifically about the article. I dont think this womans advice to her brother is as good as it would be if it was written by a male family memeber. I wasnt talking about womens responses to being hit on as directed to the hittee, but generic dating advice women give to men. Womens dating advice is flawed because they dont know what it is like for men in the dating world
Sorry, iphone posting mishap. I’ve always wondered if men REALLY want women to take a more active role in initiating relationships. They say they do, but at the same time, many men don’t seem to like women who are too forward or aggressive. They might say “yes” to a sexual offer but they might not see that kind of woman as having much value. I’m not saying all men think that way but enough do that it is risky for women to pursue men too aggressively ( though certainly there are exceptions). Also, men fantasize about being pursued by beautiful women but they are disgusted by the idea of unattractive women hitting on them. I’m sure they wouldn’t want to deal with that — being the “chooser” is not that fun if most of the pursuers are people you’d rather not get to know, which is something women have to put up with.
Using that logic, no one should pursue anyone. It’s risky for men to pursue women too aggressively (though certainly there are exceptions). How is it that men pursuing women should just get used to rejection but women pursuing men and getting rejected means men don’t really want women to take a more active role in initiating relationships?
And don’t het women also fantasize about being pursued by beautiful men and also get disgusted by the idea of unattractive men hitting on them?
Jill,
I think I see what you mean.
I once read a fantasy series of books w/a comedy spin called the myth adventure series by robert asprin. It’s a pretty funny series. One book involves a god-father organized crime society encountering an other-dimensional merlin society.
One of the mob bosses has a moll (a female hired companion for sex –or sugar baby I guess you would call it). The way this character is portrayed is very suave. First: she has a phd in psychiatry. 2nd by perpetually acting in an over-sexualized manner: she never has to have sex. Men are intimidated by her. It’s a really funny series.
I think you’re right in that a sizable chunk of men would be turned off by an exceptionally lewd and hound-doggish way of being hit on by a woman, or that they might accept a liaison, but would not think her marriage material.
However, I think the vast majority of men would be flattered to have a civil approach from a woman. I’ve been approached a total of maybe 9 times in my life–and I can say it was very flattering every time–even when I told the woman no.
Whether men want this to change or not is not the issue. A while back, you gave a fairly in-depth look at the very negative social consequences of a woman being shot down. I have to tell you that it was very eye-opening.
However, I think most of the fears (you stated) are vastly overblown just as the fears timid guys have about approaching are overblown (the stereotypical movie scene in which a timid guy asks a woman out and she insults him & everybody turns to point and laugh).
I think that the drive of even average women to only accept the approaches of men who have a much greater ability to be suave and charming even more THAN THE WOMAN HERSELF POSSESSES (i.e. even a tongue-tied nerd girl will only accept the approach of a suave charmer) is only setting women up for pumps and dumps by players, not searching for a soulmate. In fact, I would say this drive sets women up for more futureless casual sex (and being used) than IF SHE HAD APPROACHED a guy she liked.
Back to your point: I think you are 100% wrong about men being disgusted by approaches from “ugly” women. Even quite successful men are not approached by women as much as even a 5 or 6 women is approached. You would be astonished by how seldom guys are approached, unless they climb to the upper tip of the pyramid.
On balance, even a woman who has “no chance” with a particular man will be let down MUCH EASIER than an equivalent scenario of a man approaching “out of league” woman. Most men are flattered by female approaches, even if they are not interested or the woman has “no chance”.
Good points, John. It is unfortunate that sometimes women can be bitchy or curt when turning a guy down. Unfortunately I think this is often because they have learned that men will grab onto any sign of encouragement, even a smile and a friendly tone of voice, and not get the message, which only leads to more awkwardness and hurt feelings. Of course, some women are just bitchy by nature.
The whole ball of wax is effed up, no doubt.
I’m in John’s camp on this one. I’ve probably been approached a couple dozen times in my lifetime, and only a small percentage of those times (maybe a half dozen times total) was I approached by someone who was attractive enough that I would have pursued HER given a change in circumstance. All six of these women got at least a date out of it, and I maintained lenghty relationships with at least three of them. I’m an attractive guy who regularly approaches other women and asks them out, and I still LOVE it when I’m approached by an attractive girl who isn’t falling down drunk.
The truth is though that most moderately attractive women NEVER approach men. I know at least two girls who have active dating profiles on multiple sites, and they never send out messages, and barely respond to the ones they get, despite this being the least risky form of approach there is.
I rarely ever give women a hard time for approaching me. If she’s rude or overly aggressive, there’s a fair chance I’ll be rude in return. I’m not necessarily rejecting her — I’m rejecting her rude approach. In most cases, especially with attractive women, I’ll let them know that I appreciate their advances because I’m intimately familiar with how much courage it takes to approach a stranger in any environment. I think this is important since it’s sincere, and it lets them know that it’ll be safe for them to help with moving things forward in the future.
If women want better quality relationships, and better men in general, it would behoove them to learn two simple things: 1) Approach more and 2) Be nicer to the guys who do approach you whom you’re not interested. After dealing with the natural rejection that comes from doing the first, the second thing is all but guaranteed.
I’ve
Okay, I confess I’ve read some PUA advice. It has some good points, and some really bad points.
The good advice:
They start in bars or places where young single women are gathering to met guys. These are women who might be interested in sex and going after women who might want sex is a huge first step.
They tell men to go over to the woman they are attracted to right away so that they don’t have time to lose confidence. The guys have something planned to say.
They tell guys to figure out as soon as possible if the woman is there with another guy. If she is, move on. Again, no wasting time making passes at someone who is unavailable.
They advise guys to look good. Nothing huge, just basic hygiene and reasonably neat clothes.
They tell guys to approach women in a group and talk to the whole group. This takes the pressure off the woman and makes her less likely to feel threatened.
The bad points:
In the long run, the lifestyle of running around screwing strangers is bad for the men!!!!! Please don’t forget that Mystery has attempted suicide. When the guy who wrote the book finally found a woman he liked, she saw him as fake. There were a bunch of stories about PUAs losing women and being unhappy.
Many of the techniques they teach are manipulative. That’s where you may end up getting laid but being a jerk. Negging women so that they’ll feel insecure and want you is bad. Making women think they’re going to have a relationship when all you want is sex is bad. You may get laid doing these things, but you’re not being a good man.
Black:
The success of PUA I would say is mostly due to this:
There is no other system out there to help men. PUA is all men have.
Also, any individual man can take whichever elements from PUA he wants, and leave those he doesn’t want.
For me, the most important tidbit I got from PUA is the manner in which women sh*t-test their men. A great deal of women sh*t-test their men whether they are 20 years into a marriage or on a first date. It is expressly represented in most PUA forums that sh*t-testing is a subconscious behavior of women. They think they are actively annoyed about something, but what is really going on in her brain is something totally different.
The most eye-opening article I read on why women sh*t-test was on a PUA forum. It went like this: even when not expressing interest in sex, men like exploring women’s curves–feeling and caressing them (I’ve often done this w/my wife while lying w/her to watch tv).
If women like confidence like men like beauty, then how does a woman “caress” his confidence? By sh*t-testing him. Sh*t-tests are done by women to make sure that her man still “has it”.
Men like a very tangible aspect–beauty. Women like a very intangible aspect–confidence. It only stands to reason that women are going to have a drive to “feel” her mans confidence as men like to caress a woman’s curves.
Men should be equal partners in a long-term relationship, and do their share of work and have respect for the woman (if it’s not returned then he has to make a decision).
However, men should not obey every nagging little nitpicking complaint of women. Nobody likes or respects or “gets hot for” a doormat person.
If she expresses an annoyance about a habit or something else (out of the blue)–don’t apologize (especially if you’re in a group) point out one of hers. If she complains that you didn’t do some chore correctly, than come back with if you burn off extra calories doing it wrong you’ll just get more exercise (or some other quip). Or make some other wise crack. What you SHOULDN’T do: apologize or admit you’ll do the chore her way in the future.
The point is, don’t take your woman or yourself so seriously. You have to be willing to make fun of her and yourself.
I think that the good in PUA could (possibly) far outweigh the bad. There are PUA websights for LTR, that quite frankly could save thousands of marriages.
Contrast that to (what?) some vaginas (or other orifices) of women are being used under false pretenses?
The way most feminists (and some women) shame men who use PUA tactics you’d think women’s souls were located in their vagina & the women were being sent to “don’t sell it cheap” hell or something when they have casual sex. Somewhere a man is getting access to a vagina cheaply, OH MY GOD!
Get over yourselves.
If these same feminists extolling the nastiness of PUA were also calling out women who exercise divorce theft, then at least they would be consistent.
But, as always with these battle of the sexes articles, feminists are only concerned about the harm to women. God forbid some woman somewhere gives up her companionship due to bs pillowtalk, but let’s not mention the great harm to men and children women due by engaging in divorce theft.
Lifetime alimony is still the law of the land in many states. And this is supposed to be the century of equality? What a joke.
Isn’t it men who believe a woman’s soul is located in her vagina? Just have to play devil’s advocate here.
One of the things about PUA that I find deeply ironic ( though PUA’s themselves seem deadly serious and totally immune to irony), is how on the one hand it’s sold as a male empowerment movement, yet at the same time, women — or, let’s be blunt, women’s vaginas — still have all the power in the relationship. A man’s worth is judged by how many vaginas he’s able to put his penis into. The movement teaches that a man can achieve greater success in life become a fully actualized person (to use standard self help jargon) only by improving his odds of inserting his penis in the vaginas of more women. That’s pretty amazing when you think about it. When I first read PUA literature, I was repulsed by the extreme objectification of women as being of no real value other than as sex toys and status objects form the PUA. I wanted to yell at these guys — hey, I’m more than boobs and a vagina! However, I eventually realized that its the PUA men who come across as fundamentally weak in their need for constant validation of their self-worth through having sex with women and our apparently magic hoo-hahs.
Jill,
Newsflash! Men like female compansionship! Oh wait, that’s not news!
Let me explain it like this: You think many PUA gurus and pundits are dysfunctional.
My response? Fair enough–I agree.
But, what did you expect? As more and more women’s attraction markers becomes deeply dysfunctional, the men who most meet these markers will tend to be dysfunctional! (doy!)
When a good percentage of young women have such f*cked up sensibilities that the average ex-con thug has more potential for female companionship than a timid IT professional pulling down $80k or more a year, something is wrong–WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN! And the portion of these women (as a percentage) grows and grows with each new generation of women to come into their 20′s, thanks to the marriage averse and narcissistic culture strangling out all voices of loyalty and honor.
But, there is a lot in PUA that good men can take from the movement to keep heat in their marriages. Athol Kay’s sight is a good place to start. There is A LOT for men to pull from PUA to learn about building (successful) LTR’s or dating women (even in a respectful way).
I stand by my statement that many feminists and a great deal of women seem to get their panties in a bunch at the thought of a man getting access to a woman’s body with the low price of admission being bs pillowtalk.
You’d think that the sun, moon and stars revolve around women’s vaginas. Get over yourselves!
(PS up thread I talked about your marriage study. I don’t think your point about marital infidelity holds any water as related to that study)
Once again, if you want a change for the better support shared parenting or other reforming of divorce laws which currently encourage women to exercise divorce theft.
Or maybe these woman are just angry that they no longer have the mating value that they can attract these nasty guys that use women like specimen cups.
It’s not that they really care about these women–they are just mad that they will never be with a man like that again (or for the first time for most of these feminists).
Either way, the concern rings false. It’s just more wholesale demonization of the male sex drive. Sigh.
Jill said:
“hey, I’m more than boobs and a vagina!”
And yet THE MEN WHO SEE WOMEN AS PEOPLE are the ones women are PASSING OVER FOR SEX!
Dysfunctionality breeds more dysfunctionality!
PUA is a symptom, not the cause.
Not necessarily, John. The guys that PUA’s call “beta males” are just as capable of objectifying women! While the nice guys are pining after the hotties and watching porn and signing up for PUA classes so they can chase “10′s”, there are a lot of nice women sitting at home who would love a little male attention but can’t get it because they aren’t sufficiently “hot.” Are the nice guys asking any of them out? One of the PUA sites I looked at had a big ad at the top that said, “Never date ugly women again!” So apparently the problem isn’t that these guys can’t get women, they just think the women they can get are ugly. Is that the attitude of a guy who sees women as people?
Jill:
Even a nice guy who wants a LTR and builds the skills to entice female attraction, is going to then screen based on the most desirable women–and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that. This is no different than women ALREADY screen men for their effed up criteria.
Those women would have to settle for “low hanging fruit” class of men under any system of dating. At least when marriage meant something, these women would have been guaranteed of a life-long mate. All you have shown me is that today’s shark tank disadvantages both sexes.
there are a lot of nice women sitting at home who would love a little male attention but can’t get it because they’re sitting at home
Fixed that for ya.
While reading this article, I get a flashback to the point when i was called a pussy by a girl, after i refused to jump in the pool with her. That was her way to coerce me in to having sex with her . Sex should be as mutual as possible no party should feel coerced into indulging in sex. It take intelligence for both the girl and the boy to indulge in sex and still have emotions intact. Because if the guy gets to manipulate his way through and leave with his emotions intact then he is a jerk. If he is too open with his desire then he is still jerk.
And this is all many good men see when it comes to courtship — a long list of don’ts. That’s not enough to encourage good behaviour.
Nice, but the last thing this brother should do is to follow his sister’s advice. Life, almost 40 years of growning up among women only, have taught me that women’s advice will make you the kind of man women don’t find attractive.
See the article with Dempsey’s picture for reference.
Chicks dig jerks……
’nuff said.
Mark,
Stop being some aspergery coward and get a good GFE escort. You will never look back.
was written in response to a blog post that was featured in our End
We’re somewhere standing at some noisy venue on a long Memorial day weekend deep in the Hamptons. All around us are the surly signs of young boys and girls looking for that special something, or rather someone special. Then again at 2 am in the morning perhaps anything or anyone….
http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2012/06/the-ins-and-outs-of-getting-laid-in-the-hamptons/