Dan Griffin, self-described “recovering dick”, urges us to drop the self-righteous arrogance that comes with gender warfare and find what uniquely fits us.
Hear me out. There was a time – only a generation ago – when men had free license to be dicks. Assholes. Controlling SOBs. The collective of male approval and many of our institutions sanctioned control over women and children and even violence and abuse, infidelity, perennial double-standards, and outright oppression. Then women began to say “Enough” and demand their voices be heard. They demanded equal rights and fair treatment. That has only been a positive. It was a full-on revolution against institutionalized dickishness.
Being a dick is no longer tolerated by the majority of men or women in this country. Some of the more intransigent bastions of traditional dickishness – fraternities, military, and sports teams – have begun to turn the corner significantly, though many of them not of their own volition. At least not at first. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of those groups still have some way to go to truly root out sexism and just general dickish behavior. And there are a lot of dicks still out there but they are a dying breed. Their time is limited because it simply is not being tolerated anymore. Plus, underlying all of that dickish behavior? Insecurity, shame, feelings of inadequacy, etc. Part of why dickishness is fading away is because it is a very lonely and unhappy way to live – as a dick. No guy is happy when acting like a dick – unless he is a sociopath. I should know, as a bit of a recovering dick, myself. What has changed is that we no longer see dicks as real men, the kind of men we want to be – they are just dicks. And, there are degrees of dickishness.
Now some of you are going to retort: “So, who decides what is dickish behavior?” Good question and remember, this is somewhat rhetorical not someone speaking from the holy see. My only response is that every time I have been a dick – much more often than I wish – I have known it. At some level I knew it. I have either been willing to own it or have had it eat away at me. Some years ago I simply did not reflect on my behavior; I was too self-centered to do so. Sometimes I still need the counsel of other men and women to help me discern if I have crossed the “dick” line. My wife certainly doesn’t hesitate to tell me.
However, an important distinction that I did not hear in Hugo’s post: it is not just men who are responsible for perpetuating this gender hierarchy and training of boys to become dicks. It is other boys and girls and women. The media. Our schools. There are still a lot of dicks that are role models. There are still a lot of dicks that are the putative successful men (insert dick of your choice, here.) Women as they raise their sons can reinforce traditional gender stereotypes and raise little dicks or they vehemently resist those stereotypes and, in effect, emasculate their sons in the name of preventing them from becoming, you guessed it, dicks. Or out of their own disdain for or anger at all of the dicks that have hurt them. The point is many women have some culpability here. One of the worst things that some feminists do is make men the bad guy rather than understanding that gender is a system operating at multiple levels that affects both men and women and literally pits us against one another – evidenced by so many of the caustic comments fired back and forth between the various camps hunkering down on GMP. But, yes, there are some dicks making some really dickish comments on the GMP site – all in a futile attempt to hang onto their crumbling Dickdom.
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Okay, so I have been talking a little tongue-in-cheek. As Hugo said, there are a lot of great things about traditional masculinity. But I think we would all agree there is nothing really acceptable about being a dick. And, yes, for a lot of men who act like dicks – it is a phase and one that they ultimately grow out of. That does not make it okay but it does tell us that once a dick, not always a dick. A lot of men and women have found this as they have matured in their marriages and as parents. It is hard to be a dick and stay married these days. And none of us want dicks raising kids – because dicks tend to beget dicks. Or at least boys very confused about what it takes be a real man. There are a lot of recovering dicks out there – and we are growing in number and size.
Many of the gender warriors out to flay and fillet all dicks are probably much more like the centurions of traditional gender roles than they may ever want to admit. Everything is a reaction. Constantly on the attack or the defensive. I used to live that way and it was one of my greatest drugs. It also kept me being one of the worst kinds of dicks – a self-righteous one. It is not worth my peace of mind to live that way. And, I have lost some of the arrogance that allowed me to presume I knew what was best for someone else. Or that I had the right to judge them based upon a one-dimensional understanding of their life. Even dicks can be pretty complex characters. (In the end, dicks are like everyone else – they want to be loved. It is just that some of them want to be able to continue being dicks and be loved – and that is a…uhm…hard one to swallow.) There is one mantra I have for my life today – it is the essence, to me, of the examined life: be who you are. I continue to grow and pay attention to my inner voice (yes, I said it.) Rather than trying to wear someone else’s “feminine” or “masculine” clothing, I find and embrace parts of myself that feel as though they really fit me. The man I want to be. That I choose to be. When I do that, I can breathe a whole lot easier. And I am a whole lot less likely to be a dick.
Read Hugo Schwyzer’s post that prompted this one:
The Opposite of “Man” is “Boy” not “Woman”
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photo by lxn271 / flickr
About Dan Griffin
Come on, Dan. How about a positive message for a change? I’m sure you mean well, but the misandristic generalizations have become so repititive here at the GMP. I really would love to see something from the GMP that didn’t cast males as inferior “dicks.” for a change.
Evidently your experience is as you describe. However, behavior such as you describe was never tolered from men (or women) in my family and loads of families I know of, going back at least to my parent’s grandparents. And It had nothing to do with outside “institutions.” Mistreating and abusing others was known to be wrong, nothing to do with gender. Not that it never happened but when it did, it was not tolerated powerlessly. (I could tell you some stories) Neither males nor females were/are simply permitted to be “dicks.”
Hi Eric – I thought I had responded but i did not show up. I think your comment makes my point. The big question is whether your family reflects the norm or not. My guess is no though I would like to be wrong. My post is not about casting males as inferiors – it is for those men who cast themselves in a certain light and really moving away from any valorization of that which is a lot more common even though not in your family. Nonetheless, you make a good point that got me thinking about how i go about saying what i want to say – because i think we agree on a lot more than we disagree…nonetheless – why don’t you write an article?
We don’t disagree on everything but we see humans through very different lenses. I try to see the good in people, male and female, old and young, and reinforce that good by acknowledging it. Constant, unlrelenting criticism is not constructive, IMO.
“My post is not about casting males as inferiors”
I know that was not your intent but it sounds that way. As a further example is this follow-on comment: ” Still, if you were to take 100 men and 100 women – how likely is is that you would have more “women” dicks than “men” dicks – or even close?” Nuff said on that.
To use the dad analogy: Correct your kids but also highlight and reinforce the good they do. If ALL they hear is what they’ve done wrong, you are in essence telling them that they do nothing right and which takes away their incentive to improve.
Eric
I think our exchange is important. I should have been more explicit: I acknowledge that my writing can come across as negative and I intend to pay much closer attention to it. How would YOU state some of these comments? It is easy to be a critic – step up and write an article. I think you have something really important to contribute.
The reality is that men are much more likely to be dicks than women – your not wanting to acknowledge that seems to cross the line into the realm of denial as opposed to seeing the good in all men/people. I, too, believe it or not have that same tendency. That is what pisses off a lot of the women (and some men) on this site – a lack of acknowledgment of the damage caused by men living out of their sense of privilege and entitlement. It is very real. It is important that men own the impact we have had on the world – and still are. I absolutely agree that it should not be done without emphasizing the good that men do and the numerous good men there are out there. It is about balance. I need to pay more attention to the good – hell, that is the point of this website. But we have to look at the good, the bad, and the ugly…
To take the father analogy further: If my kids had gotten to the point that their reckless behavior had become violence and abusiveness and illegal behavior I would be a fool to think that a slap on the wrist and then acknowledging the good they do also is going to get their attention. We find ourselves in this position when it comes to the harm that many men have been doing and yet the catch 22 is that is clearly only a percentage of men. You and I both do not know what percentage – I know from professional and personal experience (working with these men) there is a lot of violence and abuse that happens under the surface of families and other relationships that you would never expect. I do not demonize these men – I have great compassion for them. That being said, I believe very strongly in compassionate accountability. The challenge is being able to speak to both sets of “kids” – the classic challenge of ensuring that the kids acting out are not getting all of the attention and energy from the parents.
I appreciate being able to have a civil discourse with you – something that many seem unable to do on this site. I am not sure if you consider yourself an MRA but if you do I think that is wonderful. I love the passion and commitment to justice that so many MRAs have. Men have been silent and have been silenced – systematically and in many areas of discourse, a lot of the time by women. I do not denounce MRAs anymore than I think feminists walk on water. I think we are all doing the best we can – each with one hand on the elephant. Together we are going to get a much more complete picture than we will trying to impose our reality on everyone else. I have been guilty of that to be sure…old habits, die hard.
Thanks again and I look forward to your response
If by “dick” you mean an arrogant power-monger, I agree that men are more likely to get that way. Women can too, just as easily in fact, if all else is equal.
Even today, I see that the establisment still favors men. Cultural norms like that seldom get shaken in just one or two generations. It’s a heck of a lot better for me than it was for my mother. And my mother bought into that establishment; she said inequality was an advantage for her to look for work, because she got paid about half what men did and her boss knew she’d do better work than a man in order to keep her job. Yeah, she called that “advantageous”.
It was a huge shock to me to learn that arrogance was a cover for insecurity. It’s definitely one of those emotional oxymorons, like the medieval belief that strength created a “gentle-man”.
Hi Kitti – I am always surprised to learn how many women (and men) do not understand that behind some of the most arrogant, cocky, and rude men are scared and insecure “little boys” who have learned how to be that way to protect themselves, often very early on. Thanks for sharing your comments
I don’t know I think a lot of people notice it but only care enough to throw in their face rather than actually do something to show them they don’t have to be that way.
So are you willing to say cocky arrogant and rude women are “insecure little girls” because if you are not your perspective seems sexist, biased and anti male. I think there are just as many female dicks as male dicks and your particular perspective is probably about keeping one eye shut too long.
Dan – you are so right. It’s much easier to throw stones at someone who has the chutzpah to put themselves out there to write an article as you do. I admire your courage. However, even if I did write one, I doubt it would be published here. The fact that it wouldn’t bash men (or women) as generalizations would lower its chances of getting past the editorial committee (or whatever the process is here). Also, I’m pretty well known in quite a few places and wouldn’t want to create any sensation to detract from the volunteer work that I do – not to mention my day job and cloud start-up I’m working on.
Regarding this article, I find it to be a sad commentary when the basis of an article on a site called “Good Men” can only think to stereotype men using a phallic pejorative. IMO, your article would have more substance if it were more balanced. The stereotype/generalization you offer is just as valid as saying that women are more likely to be bitches than men. Something else I would never say. It’s a stereotype, is prejudiced and not productive. IMO.
That view/perspective is out of balance. If you’re going to delineate the bad, why don’t you also delineate any good? As just one example – who is most likely to rescue people from burning buildings, criminals, stranded in the mountains and/or from rushing river waters? Please try this: search on the term “rescue” at CNN, USATODAY, NY Times or any other newspaper and read the first 10 or 15 accounts of people being rescued. You will notice a pattern. The rescuers are almost always men. Does that mean women are selfish “phallic pejoratives” who don’t care about others? Not in my book. We simply have different strengths and weaknesses.
If you open-mindedly look at the big picture and you discover that male humans are not inferior to female humans. We all (both) have our positives and negatives. The key is to help us all accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative. Do we never acknowledge the negative? Obviously not; however, pretending that only the negative exists is a fruitless exercise.
Lastly, no I am not an MRA. I find feminists and MRAs to both have *some* valid points but they both tend to harbor bitterness and animosity toward the opposite sex which skews their view of them. I don’t have an axe to grind toward any group of individuals. What I do opposite is prejudice and stereotyping – “men are phallic pejoratives”; “women are female dogs.” What I REALLY can’t stand is that a good number of MRA’s are drive by misogyny and a good number of feminists are driven by misandry and the many or most of the rest somehow “understand” and support them. I would/could never be a part of any group/movement/organization that tolerates hate. Can’t do it.
Eric,
I just want to say that of course we would publish a post if you wrote it. This statement below is patently wrong and blatantly unfair:
“The fact that it wouldn’t bash men (or women) as generalizations would lower its chances of getting past the editorial committee (or whatever the process is here). ”
We do two things here. 1) We encourage men to “tell it like they see it” — with their version of how they honestly see the world and react to it. and 2) We look for balance across all stories and not necessarily in a particular post.
We do not believe in men-bashing, nor women-bashing nor encouraging any of the “isms” that are so prevalent. We do, however encourage talking about it *so we can let people see that they exist*. When we ran the section “On Race” for example, anyone who thought for a moment that racism in this country was somehow “solved” need only read the comments and articles to know how far we have to go.
I think your point about the rescuers being mostly male is fascinating. You could do a short post — as short as this comment you just left if you think you don’t have time — on just THAT. Link to 3 videos, talk about the fact that we never talk about that — and be done. Make a clear and simple point. It would be great, and we would be proud to run it. Please email it to me at lisa at goodmenproject dot com.
thanks!
Lisa, I respectfully disagree with your statement that GMP does not believe in men-bashing. Although Dan’s seems like a good well intentioned guy, this article is an example, IMO. It not only bashes males as singularly being the ones who are “phallic pejoratives” but it does so using crude sexist language. That you all don’t see it that way is unfortunate. I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, just telling it as I see it.
Thank you for the invitation. I will give the article some thought.
I think that some people here have missed the point of the article. The author wasn’t suggesting that all, or even most, of men are “dicks.” He was simply suggesting that, rather than using women or boys as an “other” for good men, the other could be bad men. In general, I think that this is a good approach. The opposite of a good person is, by nature, a bad person.
People use both positive and negative role models to shape themselves. While the positive role models are pretty clear (the rescuers that you mentioned are a great starting point), most people do tend to have negative role models as well. Rather than using women and “feminine” traits as an example of what NOT to be, the author is just saying that a negative role model could be a peer (in this case it’s a man, just because this is a site about men) who does not behave with respect and decency towards someone else.
If someone wrote an article saying ” the opposite of Woman is bitch” I would agree. I would never want to emulate a women who does not treat people well. No one should.
This article was framed as male because this site is geared to men. I don’t think that it’s actually a gender issue, but rather a social issue. If it was a site geared to women, it would be reasonable to have “bitch” be the focus, rather than “dick”.
Once again, thanks Lindsey for actually reading the article and understanding what I was saying. I would say that very few people are good or bad – the danger is somehow determining a man is “bad” as opposed to acting badly. One is a temporary way of being and the other is fixed and unchanging.
Eric – please take what Lisa said seriously – and contribute. The comment about rescuers is great! Your last paragraph tells me we have very similar dispositions on this topic. However, I am not sure why you insist on reading the article as having made this gross generalization of men or broad sweeping stereotype of men. I said the opposite of “man” is “dick” – moving it away from the comparison to boy or women, which often (unintentionally) disparages one or both of those as somehow inferior or not desirable or incomplete. Lindsey’s comment (below) says it well. I did not – and was far from saying – all men are dicks. I even said that men who are dicks can grow out of it and even if they don’t we still have an obligation to try and see the best in them.
So, I would accuse you of your same indictment of me – you keep choosing to focus on the negatives of the article without really looking at the forest or what I was actually saying about men. Again, I know I can say more about the “good” of men but let’s not pretend that my article somehow pillories all men or men, in general. It just ain’t so.
Dan, I considered listing the instances where you stated, in essense – not that all men are “phallic pejoratives”, rather that all “phallic pejoratives” are male. But, that seems small and petty. If you re-read you may see what I mean. I also find your language choice crude and sexist. That’s just MO.
I will think about the article. It’s unfortunate that such an article on a site called Good Men would be a revelation. Let’s see if we can do more to build up rather than tear down.
The problem I think may be like this.
When you say that opposite of a man may be a dick you say you are talking about good man vs a bad man. To me dick is a use of a very gendered word (because most of the people of who dicks are men) to describe a behavior that is not exclusive to the subset of all people who have dicks. Similar to why people have a problem with calling cowardly people pussies (I’m sure most people who have vaginas don’t like the idea of having their genitals associated with a behavior that is not exclusive to people with vaginas). And I really can’t imagine someone trying to justify use of the word pussy in a “brave woman vs cowardly woman” (since most people who have vaginas are women).
So its not so much that you are trying to say men are dicks but rather that when a man exhibits jerkish behavior said jerkish behavior is related to his male genitalia.
Good news. I found some male-positive pieces here at the GMP. For example, Jim Moss’ pieces are very uplifting. Interestingly, he discusses with pride his “role” as a father.
http://goodmenproject.com/author/jamesmoss/
Another good piece is by Elizabeth Benedict about how men suffer gender-based discriminaton in family court.
http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/when-the-space-shuttle-dies-its-boys-against-girls/
Although these non-male-bashing pieces don’t get top billing and stay on the home page for only a few hours or a day or so, they are a refeshing change of pace.
I’ve perceived that, with the return of “business is wonderful” ideologies with Reagan, dickness became very acceptable again. It accounts for the 2001 and 2007 Wall Street meltdowns, and for much bad and bullying behavior in organizations. I think sports teams and business are repositories for it, but maybe the military not so much (I’m a vet but got out in 1968.) The only problem with connecting dickness with “male” is that many of the dicks are women now too.
I think we seriously need to connect the ways that organizations foster inhumane treatment. Mobbing and scapegoating are common. We “liberals” don’t get off the hook. Academia is full of this behavior, often practiced behind one’s back because the perpetrators are cowardly.
Hi Henry – i did not want to muddy the waters in my post but there is no question that women can be dicks, too. Still, if you were to take 100 men and 100 women – how likely is is that you would have more “women” dicks than “men” dicks – or even close? Not likely at all because the way a lot of men are raised moves us toward dickishness…in other words, it is a significant enough issue for men that it merits us only talking about men. Maybe it has made a resurgence, in general – i would like to think you are wrong but Lindsey (below) said the same thing. I have seen it getting better in the worlds in which I interact but who knows.
Today men are raised to be kind to women and treat them with respect, but women are raised to focus on themselves and treat men however they like. In that I would say women now are being raised to be like dicks. They are taught to focus on their power, money and status over all else. These are the messages of our society but not a indictment of women per say. Women’s empowerment promotes this perspective and women have embraced it.
The roles have been reversed somewhat but if you might be too old to experience the effects causing you to push these backwards notions about who behaves better. You seem trapped in the old stereotypical view of women. Suggesting one is better than the other is inherently sexist and you have no basis to do so.
The historic precedents are broken and we can no longer use them to define today’s realities. As a member of a generation that only knows equality this kind of self loathing male stuff is hurtful. Men are competing with women head to head for the same positions as equals and their self esteem is not served by listening to men tell them they are more dickish than women. Try empowering men instead of tearing them down. If it’s good for women then it’s good for men, that’s equality.
I was going to add in a bit about female dicks into my other post (below) but didn’t have the time.
One of the reasons that I think it’s important to curb dick behavior in men is that I see it emulated more and more by women. Women have been picking up male traits for quite a while now and it’s starting to spread. When women accept this behavior in men, they also get the impression that it’s acceptable for them to do, too. While this notion is great for “equality”, it’s not great for society. It’s important that we say “this type of behavior is wrong… for everyone”, rather than casting it as a male problem because that would also reach female dicks, too. That’s one of the reasons why I enjoyed this article. What has traditionally been a male problem will not always be that way.
One of the reasons that I think it’s important to curb dick behavior in men is that I see it emulated more and more by women. Women have been picking up male traits for quite a while now and it’s starting to spread.
I’m sure you don’t mean it as so but this comes off sounding like women are picking up jerkish behavior from men similar to how children pick up jerkish behavior from their parents.
It’s important that we say “this type of behavior is wrong… for everyone”, rather than casting it as a male problem because that would also reach female dicks, too.
I think a great start to stop framing it as a male problem would be to stop naming it after that slang term for a body part that is almost exclusively male. I get the feeling that this article were about cowardly behavior people would not be tossing the word pussy around as freely as dick has been tossed around in this post.
Its always got on my nerves that jerkish behavior is often associated with a piece of male anatomy depite most people agreeing that jerkish behavior is not exclusive to males (I suppose you could say that calling a woman a dick would be on par with calling her a bitch for jerkish behavior but its odd how some of the very people that will condemn calling women bitches will then turn around and call men dicks).
The term “dick” was used because this is a men’s site, discussing male culture. If it were an article about women, bitch would be used. This has everything to do the the specific nature of the article, not about behavior in general. There are certain types of jerk behavior that skew on gender lines. For example, women may tend to gossip more than men, while men tend to objectify women more. We were discussing male behavior because this site is about men. It doesn’t mean that women don’t also behave like jerks in some way, too. “Dickish” women refers to women who are jerks in traditionally male ways, much like “bitchy” men would indicate guys who gossip.
“Bitch” is offensive only when people, particularly men, use the term to refer to women in general, as opposed to women who are jerks. Saying, “That woman was a bitch to me” is fine. Saying “let’s go pick up some bitches at the bar” is not okay, because it’s degrading to all women. To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never heard of any woman who uses the term “dick” to refer to men in general. That’s why “bitch” is insulting and “dick” is less so.
Saying, “That woman was a bitch to me” is fine.
Presuming you are a woman you are one of the first I’ve ever come across that’s ever actually given a context in which calling a woman a bitch was the least bit justified. In my own experience its supposedly wrong in any context you can think of. And that’s why I feel that there is something unfair about condeming use of bitch (in any and all contexts) while defending the use of dick.
In short why is it that even on a progressive feminist site its okay to call (insert male) a dick for his jerkish behavior but its still wrong to call (insert female) a bitch? If we want to get the gender discourse going and help out people on all sides I can’t see there being much room for trying to defend dick while condemning bitch.
Seriously why can’t they just be jerks with room to discuss why afterwards?
I’m all for talking about dicks in this jerkish context but what I don’t like is the idea of talking about in a manner of trying to justify and defend the use of the word. Like bitch I think it needs to be done away with in this context.
If it were an article about women, bitch would be used.
And besides I have a hard time imagining a site like Shakesville doing a post on a bitch being the opposite of a woman and trying to defend the use of calling bad women bitches.
SO many times, I have run into a wall of misconception about “equality.” A lot of women believe that in order to be equal, women have to be seen as better than men. It is total nonsense, but that’s really what some women believe. I have gotten into a lot of arguments over that very issue!
Women are not emulating men they can do just fine on their own. Power and the abuse of it comes naturally to people regardless of gender. Men don’t need to alter their behavior on the grounds women might copy them as if women were impressionable children. I find that to be disrespectful to women.
Interesting article, now all we need to do is to remove all the instant gratification that comes from being a Dick….
Then maybe we could teach young boys (and girls) that violence is not to be used as social equity….
Maybe later we could retire that patronizing term “Real Man” …cuz ya-know, it flys in the face of those who say Manhood can’t be taken from you.
So maybe chicks [Mature Women] will digg nice guys [passive aggressive Losers]…
Shouldn’t be too hard…
Well Until masculine development ceases to be an exercise in hierarchical douche baggery, I reserve the right to remain skeptical.
Long live individualism!
hmmm i didn’t find this negative, I real get upset at a lot of my own gender because of this behavior. the number of people i have suggested to make a conscious choice to be the person they want to be, both male and female, because the gender role they were raised in was not a fit for them. They aren’t transgendered bu they came to their own decision that what SOCIETY says their gender should be was wrong.
i thought it was a good Article
While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree with the general premise of the article. Being able to identify bad behavior is a lot more useful than stereotyping an entire gender as bad.
I do disagree, however, that dick behavior is on the decline. While great strides have been made in the most extreme of areas (abuse, violence, etc.), I think that the lesser instances of “dickdom” are actually on the rise. I get the feeling that it’s pretty acceptable to have disrespectful “guy talk” and objectify women. I think that this is what needs to be the focus going forward. I think that the cause of this behavior is almost entirely social. Everyone who is part of society (even women, even men) need to do their part to get rid of the institutions and attitudes that promote this type of behavior. The less pressure men feel to act “manly”, the fewer the men who will be trapped by these outdated gender stereotypes.
In general, people act in ways that they feel are “normal”. The more people stand up and say that dick behavior isn’t “normal” and won’t be accepted, the more progress there will be.
Lindsey – I hope you are wrong about dickishness being on the rise. I do not see it. In fact, I am constantly amazed at venues – even behind the scenes – where there are so many opportunities for real dickish behavior and it just doesn’t happen. There is no doubt that it is still out there I just so cannot see how it has gotten worse or is on the rise. For me it is unequivocally on the decline but my perspective is probably as subjective as yours….
I agree with Lindsey that it’s on the upswing again. My view is probably every bit as subjective as yours and Lindsey’s!
I hope I’m wrong, too. Being a man, you do probably have more insight than I do. Also, because you’re married with kids, you may have a different crowd than I do. Let’s hope that dickishness is, in fact, on its way out.
I agree that they are on the rise – dickishness and cuntishness
An arms race of sorts looking for a truce. The easiest way to spot dickish and cuntish behavior is to carry a small pocket mirror and hold it up to a suspect – if they are transfixed by their own reflection, then your hunch is correct.