A closer look at how misandrist arms of feminism institutionalize the neglect of men and masculinity in women’s and gender studies.
Tom Martin is becoming quite well known in the feminist and anti-feminist blogosphere. He has taken the unprecedented action of suing a Gender Studies department—the renowned LSE Gender Institute in London, UK—for discrimination against men. As Martin has said:
When “women’s studies” became “gender studies” departments, it signalled a new era of inclusion for men’s issues—a rejection of this now is a betrayal of men and equality.
In America, the situation is even worse for men, potentially, as many universities and colleges retain the subject of “women’s studies” on their curricula. I have a Ph.D in gender studies, from the UK, and my view is that no matter what the subject is called, it will always be based on extreme feminist dogma and on a misandrist view of the world. Again, as Martin has pointed out:
Patriarchy theory—the idea that men typically “dominate” women—is omnipresent, when research shows that women tend to boss men interpersonally. Texts highlight misogyny but never misandry, its anti-male equivalent.
It is in light of this bias in gender studies that I came to read Mark Simpson’s 1994 classic, Male Impersonators, and examine how and why it has been omitted from the reading lists of gender studies courses, including modules on “masculinity.”
In Male Impersonators, Simpson undresses the idea of the “natural man” and shows us how men perform masculinity, in popular culture in particular. Male strippers and drag artists, “macho” body builders, pornography, sports, the War Movie, reality television, the “men’s movement,” rock and roll. They all reveal, as examined by Simpson, the complexities and subtexts of modern masculinities. One of the many striking things about reading this book in 2011, 17 years after it was first published, is that it seemed as “fresh” and new as it must have in 1994. It’s because the subject it focuses on—men, and their representation in culture—is one that has been ignored and distorted by subsequent gender theory and by some misandrist strands of feminism.
♦◊♦
Feminism has done three things, particularly in relation to masculinity, which relate to how gender studies has come to ignore and belittle men’s experiences and perspectives. And these three things explain why excellent books such as Male Impersonators are not on gender studies reading lists:
1) Whatabouttehwimmin?
Any academic treatment of gender has been focused on the disadvantages faced by women and how women have been “omitted” from research, arts, literature, history, etc.
An example of this assumption can be found in another book published in 1994, Angela McRobbie’s Postmodernism and Popular Culture. The book has many discussions of women, girls and “femininity,” but look for “masculinity” in the index, and you will draw a blank. She justifies this glaring omission with statements such as this one:
It is in buying and selling clothes that girls and young women have been most active. The male bias of subcultural analysis has relegated these activities to the margins (McRobbie 1994:163). [My emphasis.]
But when I have looked at contemporary books, journals, and web-based media that deal with the subject of gender, I have found no evidence of this so-called “male bias” at all. In the Internet age, there are large numbers of websites/online publications in particular, such as Jezebel, Sociological Images Feministing, Feministe and The Frisky, which look at representations of women in popular culture, for example. But there is no comparable critical consideration of how men and masculinity are portrayed in the media and culture. If anyone dares to question this imbalance, and the fact that feminist “gender studies” analyses of the media tend to only consider women as subjects, they are often met with the playground style taunt: whatabouttehmenz?
2) Men are Monsters
Heterosexual masculinity, in particular, has been “pathologized” by some feminist gender academics—with heterosexual men being portrayed as the oppressors of everyone else: hetero women, queer women, queer men.
The idea that straight men have power that they use to oppress women, in particular, has been used by feminist writers such as Elaine Rapping, an American media and film analyst, to justify statements such as this:
Everywhere you look there are books, movies, discussions and news reports about male violence … faced with the deadly serious question: “why are men such creeps?” (Rapping, 1993:114).
This idea that men are “such creeps” is born out by the fact there is so much research and data on men’s violence against women, but very little about men as victims of violence, especially not at the hands of women. Is this because men are just thugs? Or is it due to the bias of gender academics?
Even the name of this website, The Good Men Project, suggests to me that men are not ‘naturally’ good, but that they have to work hard to overcome the negative aspects of their ‘masculinity’ in order to become ‘Good Men.’ For example, in his speech at the LA Slutwalk recently, Hugo Schwyzer of GMP fame said:
While it is true that men can be the victims of sexual violence, and while it is true that in a few cases women can be the perpetrators of sexual violence, there is no question that the vast majority of sexual violence is men assaulting women.
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No question? Well gender studies programs could at least ask the question. But they don’t, due to its assumptions, which boil down to this nursery rhyme that “little boys” are naturally bad because they are made of “snips and snails and puppy dogs’ tails.”
3) “Masculinity” is Gay
The only aspect of masculinity that gender studies seems to have allowed to be considered, without completely dismissing its value, has been “queer” masculinities, and this has been left to “queer theory.” Simpson, for example, tends to be categorized as a “gay” writer on “gay” men’s issues, and when he is mentioned in books about masculinity, it is often in relation to his work on gay pornography. Some feminist writers have suggested that there is a definite line between “straight” and “gay” men, and in doing so they are endorsing “gay” men as somehow better than straight men, suggesting they deserve consideration as people, not just “oppressors.” But at the same time, they are marginalizing any positive representation of masculinity into the box of “queer theory.” In other words, this suggests that taking an active interest in men and masculinity is “gay” in itself.
♦◊♦
Male Impersonators is an interesting case study then, because, far from actually ignoring it, certain feminist academics have, in fact, taken its ideas, and co-opted and manipulated them and then failed to cite his work in their bibliographies. A number of feminist academics have made it clear they must have read Male Impersonators, but have not acknowledged just how much the book has “inspired” them, and in some cases have not mentioned Simpson at all.
The most well-known of these is probably Susan Faludi. Her book Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man, published in 2000, certainly draws on the themes introduced by Simpson in Male Impersonators. In particular, Faludi’s chapters on “hood ornaments”—men’s newfound “decorative” role in culture—and “waiting for wood”—on men in pornography—seem to owe a great deal to Simpson’s Male Impersonators. Anecdotal evidence tells of an interview with Faludi, where Simpson’s name was brought up, and she declared, ‘Oh, Mark Simpson. I’m his biggest fan!’ But not such a big fan that she could include his book in her huge bibliography.
Other academics who have obviously drawn on Male Impersonators, with little or no reference to Simpson, include Susan Bordo, who wrote The Male Body (1999) (more on that here), Germaine Greer (2003), Ros Gill et al, (2005), Harris (2007), Eric Anderson et al (2009), and Hall (2010).
The very existence of Tom Martin’s lawsuit against a major university department, and the fate of Mark Simpson’s “lost classic’”Male Impersonators, are but two examples of how feminist-dominated gender studies have short-changed men in a variety of ways, and how the neglect of men and masculinities is institutionalised within the feminist-skewed academy.
Photo By: SGT Pablo Piedra U.S. Army/Flicker
The article below is full of hyperlinks which do not show up in a comments section. If anyone would like to see all those links, and publish it, email me at sexismbusters. When gender students attack By sexismBusters Tom Martin has made headlines around the world for bringing a £50,000 sex discrimination lawsuit against the prestigious London School of Economics (LSE), claiming the gender studies Masters programme he attended briefly, was consistently biassed in favour of female victim-hood perspectives, blaming men, in order to justify ignoring male equality debates. Tom has discussed his case on A Voice for Men, and… Read more »
Finally a good article on TGMP. Looks like I should stop by more often.
Testing, testing… I think my comments are being kept off this blog for some reason. Anybody?
Thanks all for your comments and an interesting discussion!
Side note to the editors: If one of the goals of TGMP is to encourage discussion, I think QRG’s contribution has been a major success.
What I’d like to know, however, is why Quiet Riot Girl doesn’t get to censor her “Comments” column but Marnia Robinson does.
Could anyone on TGMPM staff give a coherent and logical answer to this question?
This is a wonderful contrast to the article “Excuse Me, That’s MS. Andry” by Patrick Smith that appeared a few weeks ago. (https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/excuse-me-thats-ms-andry/)
Although I don’t know if Tom Martin’s case bears any weight, I adore anyone who is willing to step up to the plate and say that studying gender doesn’t mean just studying a few particular expressions of gender and calling it a day. Thanks for the article, Quiet Riot Girl.
Dear Aqseer, I’m delighted to learn that gender studies in India is, according to you, a 50/50 prospect. As I`ve mentioned above, In Brazil it`s around a 95/5 prospect, even if we include gay and trans men in that 5%. From what I`ve seen in the U.S., it`s nott much better which is, of course, why the whole queer studies thing got started in the first place. But what intrigues me is that you seem to claim that feminism has some value, in and of itself, that is seperate from the claims it makes. It seems to me that if… Read more »
Last thing: there are two reasons that I think feminism must include and speak for men. One is that gender stopped being about women a long time ago. Society hurts men and women both. Whether women have been hurt more is really irrelevant at this stage. Men have been hurt too, and as a feminist, I think it is my responsibility to be concerned with men’s harm. This need not be at the cost of women’s concerns, especially if more people get involved instead of pointing fingers from a distance. This is a normative reason. The other reason is purely… Read more »
I’m a female law student from India. I am a feminist who believes, among other things, that feminism should speak for men. A couple of points that need to be made. 1) There is no certifying authority for feminism, feminism is not monolithic: Anyone, anywhere can call themselves a feminist. Including men. There are so many schools and sub-schools and individual views on feminism that scholars have long been using the word feminisms, instead of feminism. I agree with the comment that someone made saying that feminists ought to speak out against extremist views within feminism. This IS happening. Look… Read more »
I also have a degree in Women’s Studies & Feminist Research and have taken courses in this field at two different major Canadian universities. I can’t speak to all of the points made in this article as I am not familiar with all of the books you discuss (I will look into finding and reading Simpson’s “Male Impersonators”), but I have to disagree with most of your claims. Perhaps my experience is unique, but the *only* places I’ve had access to academic courses dealing with men and masculinities has been within Women’s/Gender Studies departments. We dealt explicitly with issues of… Read more »
“The ‘whatabouttehmenz’ line is often appropriate (if immature). Time and time again I have come across commenters on feminist blogs who have no desire to engage with the topic at hand and prefer to force readers into discussing how said issue relates to men” I’d be more sympathetic to this if feminists didn’t engage in the exact. same. tactic. If you don’t believe me, trying making an anti-circumcision post and then count how many comments it’ll be before somebody jumps in to make the assessment that “FGM” is so much worse, so why are we talking about this? If the… Read more »
I’ll agree with Paul. I have actually been banned from several discussions which were quite properly about sexual violence, per se, and not about “women’s experiences with this issue”. And I am far from being an MRA. Simply saying something as innocuous as this will often get you banned: “While man may be the principal authors of engendered violence, there’s ample reason to suspect that they are as much or almost as much its victims as women. Engendered violence towards men is so naturalized that it’s hard for most people to see, but if you want a glimpse of it,… Read more »
Dear Emkfeminist, I’ve run into your argument before: “Feminists are the only people who eve entertain that men’s issues exist, so why are you complaining?” There are two simple answers to that: 1) In the first place, you are simply wrong: queer theory offers an empistemological position from which to critique men and maleness which is not necessarily feminist (although often allied to feminism). If you’ve only encountered discussions of masculinity in your Womens/Gender Studies departments (and I’ll note that you seem to believe that they are essentially the same animal when they most properly are not) in the context… Read more »
Building on what you said, us the rejectees of the debate, are not usually organized. I even have some feminist “worth” by being a trans woman (not with all groups, some consider it an affront instead), but most will try to get into egalitarian minded groups, if they find any, or drop out from the gender scene altogether, maybe come back years later. Some will try to find reason within MRA circles, too, but many disagree with the tone and tactics of most vocal MRA groups that aren’t Glenn Sacks. In any case, if they stay on the scene, they… Read more »
Schala: I find it interesting that even Glenn Sacks (on sites like feministing and others) is derided as being a male chauvinist pig. Glenn Sacks and fathersandfamilies.org recently had a joint fund-raiser with a lesbian organization. Fathers and families was prominent in getting the plight of a lesbian social mother (who was pushed out of the child’s life by the birth mother). Fathers and families mission statement is simple: even after divorce children deserve contact with BOTH parents. They are centered on fathers only because they are the most likely to have contact interfered with, but they are not trying… Read more »
Typos:
F&F was pivotal in getting the lesbian social mothers story out in papers. F&F and Glenn Sacks has been the only prominent organization fighting for lesbian social mothers losing contact with children.
I just put “lesbian social” into their search engine and had 8 articles come up since August 8th.
Here is the link to the article:
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=18298
Other typo: 3rd paragraph. F&F financed the military mom’s legal fees in divorce court.
Emkfeminist says: “My final paper for my Masculinities course analysed the issue of male rape and its invisibility in popular culture” Emk: it seems to me there is a disconnect between the academia of feminism and the way activists pick and choose out of academic feminists ideas and apply them in a “boots on the ground” sense. It seems to me feminist non-academia ADVOCATES only use male on male rape to high-light points of TOXIC masculinity. In other words, it’s just a variant of men=bad. Their more concerned about painting male sexuality as bad, then they are in helping the… Read more »
” feminism is split up into many different combatting factions, most of which consider themselves to be the true purveyors of the philosophy.” Rubbish. I’ve never worked with any feminists or spoken to any feminists or engaged with any feminists in dialogue who claimed there is “one, true feminism” (see my earlier post to QRG). We have HUGE debates among ourselves as to the theories, constructs, foundations and goals of feminism, and sometimes our ideas may be contradictory. But while I and millions of others may question the ‘feminism’ of the Sarah Palins of the world, and would certainly love… Read more »
“Rubbish. I’ve never worked with any feminists or spoken to any feminists or engaged with any feminists in dialogue who claimed there is “one, true feminism” (see my earlier post to QRG).” That’s true, they don’t claim to be The One True feminism. “We have HUGE debates among ourselves as to the theories, constructs, foundations and goals of feminism, and sometimes our ideas may be contradictory. But while I and millions of others may question the ‘feminism’ of the Sarah Palins of the world, and would certainly love to engage her in debates about how her beliefs ARE feminist, I… Read more »
“People will say Sarah Palin is anti-feminist ” ‘People’ may. None of the feminists I know do. “Disagree vehemently on any of those points and you will be called MRA, anti-feminist, misogynist, woman-hater and conservative.” Not amongst the feminists I know/feminist sites/groups I participate in. See, unlike the MRM, feminism isn’t about “being right” and not allowing anyone else in. It’s about opening dialogue and bringing all topics to the foreground. It’s not about “winning”, it’s about confronting the issues and actually trying to do something about them, not just carping. “ignoring men’s problems is not going to cause equality… Read more »
““People will say Sarah Palin is anti-feminist ” ‘People’ may. None of the feminists I know do.” I’m not talking about your personal friends, but about the majority of the feminist blogosphere. Feministe, Feministing, Alas, a blog to name a few. If a minority like those at “No, seriously, what about the menz” blog thinks they can’t disavow anyone at all, ever, from being a feminist, and are for doing stuff for men and trans people, they are considered fringe, and even anti-feminist by many feminists (not all). ““Disagree vehemently on any of those points and you will be called… Read more »
No, thanks, I prefer the term patriarchy, and I explained why in an earlier post, so I’m not going into it again. “It’s everyone’s responsibility.” No, it is NOT a WOMAN’s (or a feminist’s– or feminism’s) responsibility to do the work of personal change for men. Just as it is not men’s responsibility to do the WORK for women. And if you don’t think MILLIONS of men haven’t and aren’t still getting in the way of women’s empowerment/advancement, etc, you must’ve been locked in a dungeon for the past 40 years. Just in the last two years in the US… Read more »
Keep being contrarian then, I’ll ignore both you and Kiran, in favor of people who want to dialogue, not say I have no substance to what I say ever.
Morgraine, Pecker-checking the elites has no bearing on who actually has it worse in society when we look at the common woman and common man. When we take the metrics by which we show widespread black disenfranchisement (in the US) and apply them to gender it is plainly factual that men dominate the lower rungs of the power pyramid in about equal measure to the way they dominate the top rungs. Men: are 95% of on-the-job deaths (never discussed in the wage gap) are 90% of the homeless are 80% of suicides got sole custody 6% vs mothers 80% in… Read more »
“YOU SAID THESE ISSUES WEREN’T YOUR CONCERN.” Nope, never said this. Again, putting words into my post that I never said or even implied. And again, no citations for your “facts”. The single largest cause of violent death to pregnant women in the USA is murder by a male partner. 3.4 women PER DAY in the US are murdered by men who claim to love them. And not one single statistic you cite for how men have it worse is the fault of feminists or feminism, INCLUDING the custody issues. The legislators and the courts (in the USA and in… Read more »
Yeah yeah, men oppressing themselves, don’t need help you know, it’s their own fault.
Victim-blaming by any other name.
Also John D is not blaming feminism for causing those woes, only for not addressing them, while claiming they are for full equality. Those woes should be fixed, don’t care who causes them, only why and how.
MOrgrain disclaims: “YOU SAID THESE ISSUES WEREN’T YOUR CONCERN.” Nope, never said this. Again, putting words into my post that I never said or even implied. ======== Really? Then what was the meaning of this quote? “But MEN need to decide what it is THEY want to change in the current dominant (patriarchal) paradigm, which yes, does also hurt men, although the majority of men (and many women as well) are the ones who support it. it’s neither women’s responsibility nor women’s business to do that FOR men.” ======= You’ve made it quite clear that you don’t think it’s your… Read more »
Dinosaurs like you Morgraine may soon find themselves outsiders to the feminist movement.
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=18908
Once again, I never said women/feminists weren’t concerned about men’s issues nor have you provided ONE SINGLE JOT of evidence or quote that suggests otherwise. Really, you need some help with basic reading comprehension. “it’s neither women’s responsibility nor women’s business to do that FOR men.” DOES NOT EQUAL “[I] don’t think it’s [in my best interest] to help men fight destructive gender roles”. but it’s not women’s responsibility, no. It’s MEN’S responsibility to determine how they want themselves to be seen and how they want boys to grow up– women can and do and have been and will continue… Read more »
I love people who DEFIANTLY BACK-PEDAL.
Quite an oxymoron
“Because, as Jill pointed out, feminism IS about advocating for women’s rights. Equality means equality for everyone; feminism exists to ensure that WOMEN and girls are able to achieve that.” Equality between women and who? Because what happens often is that feminist orthodoxy looks at the women’s position…and interprets what they think is the men’s position. So given no voice is for men’s issues, you can’t fix them, you don’t know they exist, or your ideology is based on their being minimal problems that can safely be ignored…or go the victim-blaming way and say that violence inflicted on men is…by… Read more »
Schala says: “So given no voice is for men’s issues, you can’t fix them, you don’t know they exist, or your ideology is based on their being minimal problems that can safely be ignored” I think this is one of the worst aspects of feminism. It reminds me of the black on black crime. The simple fact is that in inner city poverty-stricken black communities, the daily issue isn’t racism but black on black crimes. Black men have about 8 times the chances of being murdered over white men, and about 13 times the chance of being murdered over white… Read more »
Dear Morgaine, Thank you for giving me an a nice example of my greater point, the greater point being that ANYTHING one says that is critical of feminism will be dismissed as not really true because one’s interlocutor’s particular beliefs ABOUT feminism (backed up by their anecdotal experiences) are supposedly more real than one’s critique. I used “one true feminism” as a bit of hyperbole. For you, the “true” feminism would be one in which there’re large debates, but these are tempered by an overweening sense of all-inclusive sisterhood. However, I invite you to do a google for “real feminism”… Read more »
“You’ll quickly see that said sisterly consensus DOES DOT exist.” YES, mate, that’s what I said. YOU’RE the one who said there was one way of looking at it. I DISAGREED with you. HELLO! ” If you personally don’t know anyone who would deny a woman the right to call herself a feminist, then you need to talk to some sex workers” Well, I certainly don’t– I’m a sex positive feminist and I believe a person has as much right to sell her body for sex as to sell her mind for corporate hegemony (and I wish NEITHER were seen… Read more »
No, Morgaine, I did not say that there was one way of looking at it. Let mne quote my original comment again, because apparently you didn’t get it the first time around: “Feminism is split up into many different combatting factions, most of which consider themselves to be the true purveyors of the philosophy.” What I DID say was common among feminists of almost all stripes, however, is that they use this immense diversity to deny that whatever feminist position they don’t agree with is “really” part of feminism, which is EXACTLY what you’re doing right here: “Oh, feminists don’t… Read more »
“most of which consider themselves to be the true purveyors of the philosophy.” Please cite an example of the writings/words or declaration of a feminist group or theory (with references) that says it “considers [itself] to be [a] true purveyor of the philosophy”. “the fact that you aren’t aware of any feminists who deny prostitutes the right to call themselves feminists” Nope, never said this. I said I don’t know any and I don’t engage in that branch of feminism. I never denied that there are such feminists/feminisms. “its proponents tend to avoid engaging in self-criticism” Again, not in the… Read more »
“. . . but it’s not our primary responsibility. JUST as Jill (I think) also pointed out, nor is it the responsibility of the NAACP or Latino advocacy organisations to work for the rights of *white* people.”
Its clear from their ideology and policies that feminists don’t care about men or boys and I respect when they don’t pretend to.
In large parts of feminist discourse being silent is treated the same way as being an active supporter because of what the people you aren’t disagreeing with think. Take rape culture, if you don’t speak up against jokes or statements you are seen as supporting and being part of that culture. Similarly there is some support for women upholding patriarchical norms yet a man doing so lacks even this support (see makeup, fashion, etc.). If feminism doesn’t call out its own radical fringe then by the same rules they expect us to play by they are guilty of supporting that… Read more »
The problem with that argument, 2ndnin, comes when you actually try to use it on feminists. Like Marxists in the 1920s-70s or Christians, anytime, anywhere, feminism is split up into many different combatting factions, most of which consider themselves to be the true purveyors of the philosophy. When you claim that feminism does this or that or should do this or that, what you get is 99% of feminists countering with “But that isn’t TRUE feminism you’re describing there! That’s some bastard, minority offspring which all right and proper feminists despise!” And to a certain extent, the feminists are right.… Read more »
Oh, and as a slight aside (although it’s not relevant at all to this page/thread/piece, you did bring it up): “like Marxism’s view of the economy – reality is superceding it at an ever-increasing pace. ” Uhm, in fact, the economy is doing EXACTLY what Marx predicted– in the US and West, anyway (and according to the article below, in the Far East also). He SAID that capitalism was a step on the way to socialism/communism, and that ‘FREE TRADE’ would be the economic construct that would cause the (huge majority–99% as it were) of workers/ proletariat to rise up… Read more »
A very good article. I’m not sure I buy the “misandry is hegemony” thesis, but I do know from constant and personal experience that it is very hard to get an academic article published if it touches upon sex and gender in any way that comes across as “defending traditional heterosexual masculinity”. While I have exactly zero interest in defending “traditional masculinity”, however we define it, I also think that masculinity itself has been hardly touched upon as a research object. I also think that a huge part of male-on-male violence is gender based. Yes, women get beaten by men… Read more »
Women get beaten up by men more because men are strong and not because women hit men less often. Studies have shown that the violence between the genders is nearly equal even among teenagers but women do get hurt by men more often. I am interested in defending heterosexual male masculinity because that is what I am. For all my high minded ideals i do still feel I am entitled to self defense. Traditional masculinity had many good qualities that helped form a strong and stable society. These are not things we should just throw away especially in the midst… Read more »
One of the reasons I dislike the term “traditional masculinity” is that it begs the question of whose traditions are going to be followed here?
“Women earning 50% more degrees than men…?” Citation needed, please.
As for the whole childraising fertility thing… yeah, with close to 7 billion humans on planet Earth, what’s really needed are more kids in high-consuming societies like the U.S. There’re going to be PLENTY of kids to power the future, Ed: they just probably won’t look a lot like you.
@Thaddeus
That is why feminism doesnt speak for me. The truth is at the time nobody did and when I made the decision to no longer be the abused it was startling how many decided to co opt my skills. Is it any wonder that the abuser was more than likely the abused?
Thanks for all your comments so far. Sorry if I haven’t replied to everything directed at me.
A very interesting discussion so far!
I often wondered the same thing about the Women’s Studies department when I was getting my undergrad degree with a major in that field at UCLA. It seems that instead of naming the department (or re-naming, case may be) based upon what is most inclusive or exclusive, it should be based upon making the department more specific. Women’s Studies should specifically about the study of women – in history, the arts, in science, and in social theory. Gender Studies may be a differently-focused study, one that has a lot of cross-over with Women’s Studies of course (just as Queer Studies… Read more »
I have no problem with a website or discussion board that only allows people who are ___ to enter or post to it. Private club, members only, more power to you. I’m just really, really curious, from the standpoint of a very sneaky person, how the people running such a site verify the real identity of the person online. How hard is it to get onto a women-only site by a man pretending to be a woman? Intellectually, I think it raises a great question about how we really “know” the gender or sex of someone online. Or what gender… Read more »
I have the same sneaky thoughts!
Also I get accused of being a man a lot, by feminists online. So their sense of gender is very political. It is because of my views that I am not accepted as a woman.
That’s quite telling — calling you a “man” as an insult…. Of course, they might say that you are trapped in some sort of false consciousness, because you have not come to believe what they believe. It’s actually a quite coherent, airtight mindset, this idea of correct consciousness and false consciousness. You disagree because that’s what the system of oppression wants you to do. All criticism therefore falls into the category of “anti-feminist,” therefore proving the point about the power of the patriarchal system. The more I hear about this “patriarchy,” the more I am deeply impressed with it. I’m… Read more »
I am increasingly impressed by some feminist ‘discourse’ to be honest, as well.
Like you suggest it is such a coherent worldview, and has rationales for why people would oppose it, that it becomes very difficult to challenge!
@Erin ‘Injustice will continue until those who are not effected by it are as outraged as those who are.’ Until feminists like you defend men from feminists like Kiran there can be no inclusion within your ranks. If you refuse to call them out, you allow them to attach the moral authority of your cause to what can only be described as the deepest and most hateful perversion of what feminism ought to be. Until you call them out, you allow them to define what feminism means for a lot of men who are totally silenced by these women. Until… Read more »
Good Point.
Fardarter, until men and women alike come to care about what each other faces and put as much effort into doing their part to work for a better society, we are going to continue to have the same battle over and over again. This isn’t just about Femininsts having to do their part. This is about men and women alike, Femininsts and MRA’s alike, coming to understand that each gender is human and faces different social issues and honesty caring about those social issues. Which is why I said that that gender studies should be broarded to include male studies… Read more »
Yes, we both need encouragement and work from the other side. So my question to you is this. When it so happens that a man posts on a feminist blog, and is attacked by 5 or 6 women, and not one stands to defend him, tell me just how that is encouragement and support?
Why does it seem that so often nobody will see the problem until they are the problem?
Fardarter, naturally, that isn’t support at all. Which is why we have to change the conversations we have with each other. If each side keeps saying “well *they* didn’t do this for me”..then the cycle continues. Someone, somewhere has to take a step here. On both sides. And in all honesty, a few years ago I had a tough time of it and was really in a bad spot when it came to men. I’d been really hurt and growing up I didn’t really always have the best experiences with men either. I had so many questions about guys and… Read more »
You make some good points Erin. I am going to refocus on the topic of my post though, and say that I am pointing out how feminism has consistently erased men’s experiences and voices. And when it comes to gender studies feminism is all we have. It is not just one viewpoint it is the *main* viewpoint on gender.
That is what I, a woman, am challenging.
Maybe I’m unclear what your getting at. Are you looking for male studies to be right along side female ones? If that’s the case, I’m all for that. If your looking to obliterate Feminism in the face of giving men a voice alone, I can’t say I agree. This goes back to my earlier point about men and women needing to come together to care about the issues each other faces as much as they care about the issues they themselves face. All my talk about that wasn’t an attempt to derail your topic but to incorporate it. I don’t… Read more »
@Erin I appreciate the humanity in your position, I really do. If your position was an ideology, I could hardly fail to support it. However, the question I ask about why there is no angry response to Kiran cuts right to the core of it for me. You can only ask the men one this site, but I think they will agree with me. It is not the ideology of 90 percent of feminists that hurt us so much, it is the silence of 90 feminists. As a gender aware man I see it as my duty to fight for… Read more »
Go your own way. We can do equality without feminism. It’s an ideology and a distrust of men is at it’s root. The militant ideologies of revolutionaries are rarely designed to function efficiently in the peace that follows. Feminism is hostile towards men, that is where KIRAN got her ideas from. That is what it can do to “true believers” so you don’t have to defend it. Be a humanist, be a equal rights advocate, be a good human being, but you don’t have to be a feminist.
Ed makes a very valid point here:
“be a equal rights advocate, be a good human being, but you don’t have to be a feminist.”
I would go further by adding that feminism gets in the way of being an equal rights advocate.
Fardarter, you’re right that silence is a problem. But it’s a problem on both sides. I command you for being a man that doesn’t wait in silence when you see women being treated unfairly, that you consider your duty to help. And I sincerely believe that women need to be in that same mentality for men and I would agree that not enough are. But the truth is, not enough men do what you do either. Which is where all the hurt and resentment comes from. Which is why both sides need to come together and both sides can’t keep… Read more »
I don’t want to defend the excesses of feminism but to play devil’s advocate, I have to ask, why is it feminism’s job to represent male voices or experiences? Isn’t feminism by definition about women’s voices and experiences? Should African American studies incorporate white experiences? Should Chicano Studies focus more on Asian experiences? (And btw, I would only call myself a feminist to the extent that I believe women and men should have equal opportunities and responsibilities; I never took a woman’s studies course in college and have never studied feminism as an academic topic; I pretty much stayed away… Read more »
“I don’t want to defend the excesses of feminism but to play devil’s advocate, I have to ask, why is it feminism’s job to represent male voices or experiences?”
Because it claims to be about equality. It should stop the pretense and come clean that its about aggressive advocacy for women regardless of equality and inequality for men.
I think feminism IS about advocacy for women. I don’t think most feminists would deny that. I don’t think that means feminists want to oppress men. I think most feminists are genuinely seeking equality for women, not supremacy.
@Jill: I agree. I don’t think feminists are intentionally trying to oppress men just as I think communists like Stalin really were trying to create a better society. But intentions and outcomes are different things. The outcome of feminism is unfairness and inequality
Their version/definition of equality tends to equate to what most non-feminsts understand to be supremacy.
I always hear pushes for egalitarianism from feminists, but this tiny group of guys continues to comment repeatedly and to paint feminism according to their own skewed perceptions. On one hand, painting a dark picture of feminism in general with anecdotal evidence and personal opinion while on the other hand defending against any MRA stereotypes that paint that group with broad strokes based on the likes of the aforementioned Spearhead site. Even it when it comes to suffering men (and I are one of teh menz) we have to make it a pissing contest. If men want to embrace masculinity… Read more »
The departments of “feminism and equality” (as if they were one and the same) disagree with you. Especially given that no voice, viewpoint, or lobby would represent men’s needs, in a government department.
Jackson, it’s not a few men only. It’s 75% of women and even more men who reject feminism.
Hey Jill: But if feminists are going to minimalize and deny men’s issues, or not even bother to measure it (as some1 posted up or down thread) since you’re not measuring women’s outcomes against mens, then it will necessarily be diverted into a supremacy position. I would argue that feminism should fight for men because they claimed to be concerned about breaking gender roles for all, but accepting that feminism is just female advocacy then they should AT LEAST be honest about male issues, or they will naturally drift into supremacy (i.e. special privileges for women rather than equality) because… Read more »
Sounds like you and I have something in common here. I spent some time surfing the same sites but the one that turned things around for me was the art of manliness. Good men talking about things that mattered to them. They did a twelve part series on virtue according to Ben Franklin I believe. This is the first site (and only site) I’ve seen that deals with concrete modern issues for men. Its given me a lot to think about. Some of the stuff here has been so far from my experience that I don’t even begin to comprehend… Read more »
Feministing, youre claiming feministing allows open debate? Perhaps the comment policy has recently changed then. As feministing used to be a space so safe, it was sterile. Everytime ive gone to feministing recently, i havent seen an increase in the number of comments – still only a handful
Sorry Jamesq, they present a broader range of feminism that includes many intersectionalites, and they do allow some questioning of feminism, at least as long as they identify you as female. Its not perfect, which is why I’m here. Its a long way off from the truly vile hate spewing sites I’ve come across.
What are your thoughts on Feministe, I prefer it to Feministing as they allow non-feminists to comment and even argue , as long as the tone is civil. props to Jill for that.
As long as you don’t bring male issues at all. I was piled on recently on a thread there (on Feministe).
So you must be female? More evidence of how feminists feel about men.
“site called Askmen. And alot of the articles where about how to oggle other women when a man was out with his girlfriend, and how to manipulate your girlfriend into threesomes. Those things don’t exactly encourage good feelings in women.” As much as I hate to break the love fest the fact is some women like to experiment sexually and sometimes you want to look at other girls when you are out with your girlfriend. These things don’t make men vile anymore than promiscuous women make women dogs. Lots of men get cheated on, dumped, betrayed, lied too by women… Read more »
Askmen is the “brother” publication of Cosmopolitan.
Not exactly men’s right stuff, the same way Cosmo is not women’s right stuff. It’s shallow half-a-brain stuff that is a waste except to laugh about how absurd it is.
Ed, I don’t really think the concept that some women like to experiment sexually is even germane to this discussion. If you want to oggle other women while you are out with yours and she doesn’t mind, good for you. Have at it. I however personally think that type of behavior is disrespectful and even humiliating to your partner. There is something you need to understand which is that men and women sometimes feel that different actions are disrespectful. I’ll give you an example. Lets say a wife and husband go to a party. Earlier that day the husband was… Read more »
Unfortunately there is no Pope of Feminism who can decree what is the accepted doctrine and excommunicate those who don’t agree. I don’t agree with Kiran but saying that “feminists” are responsible for what she says is like holding a Lutheran in Minnesota responsible for polygamists in Texas abusing kids, or whatever. I think a lot of MRA’s who post virulent woman-hating comments on the Internet are lunatics but I also acknowledge that they don’t represent the views of everyone who is interested in issues that affect men.
“I think a lot of MRA’s who post virulent woman-hating comments on the Internet are lunatics but I also acknowledge that they don’t represent the views of everyone who is interested in issues that affect men.”
Many feminists do think they represent all people who care about male issues, wether they identify as MRA or not.
I’ve been called one, too.
Unfortunately, the angriest people who make the most noise tend to get the most attention.
I still find it easier to respect feminism as Female based Advocacy thus granting the need for rational cohesive Men’s Rights Advocacy group.
A Men’s Rights Advocacy group with clearly defined intentions of promoting an ideal Male existence either with or with Female involvement. I don’t think our Colleges and universities are up to the task.
budmin, thank you for that very reasonable comment. I’m not sure I agree that our institutions of higher learning aren’t up to the task, but I’ll grant that perhaps a fair assessment of the role of men in a egalitarian culture has not been adequately examined or explored. I think that’s what the GMP is all about. I also think that it would be a lot more productive if it were actually about “promoting an ideal Male existence either with or with Female involvement” rather than bashing feminists or feminism. It’s men like you (and Hugo and many others who… Read more »
Yes Jill I accept your point to a degree.
BUT – the main point of my article was to show how feminist – dominated gender studies justifies and reinforces misandry amongst feminists in day to day life. It is not just down to individuals, the hateful attitudes towards men within feminism are institutionalised.
There is no Pope of feminism, but where is the collective of individual feminists decrying the discrimination against men? Why is there not one single angry feminist response to Kiran?
I see your point, but it’s kind of like complaining that the NAACP doesn’t care about the problems of white people.
Tell me, how would you feel if not a single man came out in your defense when someone was blatantly misogynistic? Would you not feel that they were colluding in their silence? Have men, as a collective not been accused of that VERY thing when they don’t speak up?
Actually it’s more like feminism pretending to be the NAACP to get the support of men and discovering they were actually more like the black panthers which were behind a lot of attacks and harassment of whites.
They don’t pretend to.
Further, the average feminist (a white woman) is far more privileged than the average black male. So, the NAACP has much more to complain about.
“the average feminist (a white woman)”
Wow. Has anyone told bell hooks, Audre Lorde, Alice Walker, Rebecca Walker, Arundhati Roy, Wangari Maathai (RIP), Aun San Suu Kyi, Amarta San, or any of the other millions of feminists of colour, this?
You ever heard of Womanism Morgaine?
There was a reason many women of color felt the need to form their own movement- separate from the middle and upper-class white women that dominated feminism..
ALL of the women I listed call themselves feminists.
Really, that MRA disingenuity gains you no support and makes you no points. Who are you trying to convince?
Your reply is complete nonsense. Answer the question: Don’t you think that there was a reason that many women of color felt the need to form their own movement (womanism) separate from feminism which is **DOMINATED*** by middle and upper class white women?
a movement can be dominated by a particular group without being 100% of that group. That there are women of color who call themselves feminists does not disprove that.
Also: i never claimed to be an “MRA” but, hey, nice try at a strawman. it almost looks like me, but the nose is all wrong.
“Answer the question: Don’t you think that there was a reason that many women of color felt the need to form their own movement (womanism) separate from feminism which is **DOMINATED*** by middle and upper class white women?” This is the first time I’ve been asked that question. Eric the Troll said that the average feminist is a white woman. I disagreed. Yes, during the Second Wave, many WOC (especially in the USA) felt that the movement primarily focussed around white (but also middle class) women’s issues (working class women, who had ALWAYS worked, also felt left out). Lesbians and… Read more »
So you claim that most feminists are minorities?
LOL!!!!
Feel free to provide evidence to back your claim. This should be good.
Speaking in terms of the west.
“So you claim that most feminists are minorities?”
Again, this is not what I said. Find a good light and re-read slowly.
Typical MRA intellectual dishonesty: Putting words/implications into others’ posts.
“Speaking in terms of the west.”
I specifically listed several women who are NOT Western and who are feminists, FFS.
But then, you don’t really want a debate/discussion. You just want to “win”. What is it, I wonder, that you win? The continued right to be angry and hostile towards women and social change?
Well, hey, if that’s how you WANT to live your life…
So, then, what is your point? You listed 7 or 8 non-white feminist women. And? That doesn’t change the fact that the feminism is mainly made up of white women. It’s not a matter of winning. It’s like I tell my children, simply tell the truth. Don’t try to color the truth, tell half truths, or hide facts that would reveal the whole truth so as to have an advantage. Simply state the truth, the whole truth,and nothing but the truth. That’s what I have done here, and do here at GMT. Stated the plain facts. You, on the other… Read more »
LOL, you “tell the truth” and “state the plain facts”.
LMFAO.
You put words in other’s mouths, you refer to facts and statements not in evidence, you use straw men, you use every logical fallacy there is.
Are you SERIOUS or are you just one of those internet people who doesn’t take his medication?
It’s funny, you comaplian about people “putting words in your mouth” when you have attributed to me views which I have never expressed anywhere on this site. In fact, I have specifically denied i expressed them. I know that you seem to enjoy assuming that the men who disagree with you are some sort of Straw Borg collective, but in fact we aren’t. So: Time to put up or shut up. I want you to specifically cite ANYWHERE where I’ve said anything you’ve attributed to me. Where have i ever claimed to be an MRA? Hell, where have I even… Read more »
Jill there is no figure head of feminism, but there is a unifying ideology and variations within that ideology, that feminists perceive as being vastly different. ie. Greek Orthodox and Liberal Catholics are different but fall under the same ideology.
The reason I know for sure feminism is ‘monolithic’ is that I began to challenge some major tenets of feminism a while ago, and it caused me to be vilified and ostracised from the movement. The only people who stuck up for me, properly, were non-feminist men!
“it caused me to be vilified and ostracised from the movement. ” the WHOLE movement? Wow, QRG, you DO get around, don’t you? Sorry, but feminism is as far from being monolithic as any socio-political-cultural ideology can be. There are so many different schools and threads of feminism– and we argue CONSTANTLY among ourselves– that most theorists now refer to Feminisms, plural. Just between Second Wave and Third Wave feminism the conflicting opinions are extreme. When both Sarah Palin and Arundhati Roy call themselves feminists, you can clearly see that there is an incredibly broad spectrum of opinions that fall… Read more »
Maybe but I am not accepted by any feminists. And that’s fine by me!
“I am not accepted by any feminists.”
Again, WOW, I’m impressed by your ability to confront EVERY SINGLE FEMINIST on the planet to find out whether s/he ‘accepts’ you!
WTF does that mean, anyway? “Not accepted by any feminists”– accepted as what? A human being? A person who has an opinion? A person whose opinion another person (feminist or not) might disagree with?
Really, you need to explain that comment a little better. If feminists can “accept” Sarah Palin (and plenty do) I’m SURE we can find at least a few that would ‘accept’ you.
Then feminism becomes a meaningless word.
Either feminism means something tangible, or it’s meaningless.
No honey, feminism doesn’t have to mean “something tangible”. Something tangible means something TOUCHABLE. Ideologies, political theories, expressions of human behaviour and existence are not tangible– they are not concrete nouns that you can touch, see, hear, smell, or otherwise recognise with the senses. Feminism is not a word, it is a socio-political movement that advocates for the rights of women and equal status in society for all people. HOW those ideals are to be achieve vary greatly from feminism to feminism and from feminist to feminist. JUST AS how democracy (or rather representative democracy) is to be achieved varies… Read more »
Okay then, feminism means what you want it to mean, remember to vote democrat, whatever that means, because it has no substance at all according to you.
“Feminism is not a word, it is a socio-political movement that advocates for the rights of women and equal status in society for all people.” Wrong, given it accepts transphobia, misandry, classism and racism within its ranks. That you don’t get excommunicated for it, that many of its “great thinkers” and often cited writers, judges, activists, etc are horribly bigoted into tangential areas that are relevant to bringing equality, even if they’re not directly anti-woman. For example, Germaine Greer and Sheila Jeffreys are incredibly bigoted against trans and intersex women, while erasing trans men – and while fringe, they hold… Read more »
Oh please. Well then by your logic there is not ONE SINGLE DEMOCRATIC STATE in the whole of the Western world (and beyond) because every single one of them has had leaders/representatives who spoke out against basic democratic rights.
If it’s not perfect, then it’s not _________?, right?
LMFAO. See how far you get with that absolutist drivel.
Anyway, I thought you weren’t engaging with me any more? You may as well not, if that’s the best you can do.
I think we could benefit from having a broader context of “gender studies” available and not just have it apply to the feminine experience. Studies on men, masculinity and how current culture has shaped men could only benefit all of us. Infact, it might even open doors for men and women to be more vulnerable to the struggles each other face then we currently adhere to. I would be happy to see such more board gender study classes opened to colleges. However, if we want gender studies for men and women alike to be taken serious, then we need to… Read more »
Erin,
Here’s an article from the Spearhead-
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/10/20/loving-men-respecting-women-the-future-of-gender-politics/
Anyways, as a male, most of the articles and comments at The Spearhead don’t appeal to me….
I am familar with Spearhead Stoner. I’m not saying I agree with the website. I think it’s woefully misdirected personally. What I am saying is there are male lead websites that do talk about male issues. And that while I agree that there are probably more female generated websites that talk about issues women face, the fact that there are less male ones isn’t Femininism’s fault. It’s a combination of factors. Somewhat having to do with what websites do attract more male attention (Maxim) vs the reality that women tend to bring relationships between men and women and how that… Read more »
I always tended to think of the spearhead as a lot of resentful gripers. To see (what I think anyway) are good men’s rights organizations some fine examples are hisside.com and fathersandfamilies.org Comparing these entities to the spearhead is like comparing Martin Luther King Jr. to Louis Farrakahn. Farrakahn may have legitimate issues, but he isn’t going to affect any change. I agree with QRG that misandry is very much institutionalized into mainstream feminism as well as the practice that men’s issues are denounced, ignored and marginalized (unless the person is willing to admit they come from “teh patriarchy” whatever… Read more »
John, thanks for sharing male websites that you consider healthy ones. I will check both those out.
“teh patriarchy” whatever that means”
Right there, you lose credibility with me and probably a lot of feminists. If you’re not willing to at least look into in and engage in what is a HUGE element of feminism (whether you agree with the theories or not) , then you’re obviously not serious about an honest analysis of feminism.
I’ve looked into it, skimmed through many sites, read Finally Feminsim 101 and many other sites. Don’t understand it to the point of someone with a PHD in Women’s Studies, but I do think it is only a theoreticla construct and not one that everyone should be discussing with the immutability of, say gravity. So, it’s time to move past Feminist concepts like Patriarchy, Hegemonic Masculinity (where’s the Hegemonic Femininity-isn’t the supposed to be some kind of dialect between the two genders,) Privilege (unless you stick to the term as it is written in a dictionary,) “Nice Guy TM” (Aren’t… Read more »
Anything is a theoretical construct by your argument. Do you deny that the vast majority of the world has been run by and for men for the last few 1000 years? That women (and most men) have been subjugated to the control by a small elite that silences, ignores, oppresses and kills women (and many men)? Do you deny that this small elite has power over the vast majority of others, by controlling resources and using violence to maintain that control? Do you deny that the majority of the world has lived for that time in a system that values… Read more »
Morgraine says: anything is a theoretical construct by your argument. Do you deny that the vast majority of the world has been run by and for men =========== By men? Yes. FOR MEN? I think that is VERY DEBATABLE: ht tp://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2038997/In-Downton-Abbey-male-servants-taunted-feathers-women-going-war-So-whats-truth-cowards-tormentors-Feather-Girls.ht ml ht tp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312764/Britains-child-slaves-New-book-says-misery-helped-forge-Britain.ht ml It is only through the invisibility of male suffering that anybody would think that male rule also meant rule for males. 26,000 military men died building the panama canal. If they refused, they would have been sent to military prison. They (were forced to) gave their lives for something as intangible as international trade. It… Read more »
OK, well first of all, the Daily Mail is a tabloid whose work has been discredited by hundreds, so it’s not valid support for anything. Again, you need to learn/understand actual scholarship and how to support your argument through valid sources. Downton Abbey is a FICTIONAL TV series– sure, it’s based in real life and some of those things did happen (of course– all people raised in patriarchy are influenced by the values of patriarchy, so it’s no surprise that women have bought into it also). “It wasn’t oppression of women, it was oppression of ALL by a few elites.”… Read more »
Morgraine: To say that just because women had no vote that they had it WORSE on the totem pole is NOT ACCURATE. I would say that men and women were oppressed equally harshly but in different ways by oppressive gender roles. While women had fewer avenues of fulfillment and no vote it’s important to note that 90% of those avenues of fulfillment were also closed off to men (as most everybody was poor and undereducated) and that men’s gender roles also meant (forcibly either through ridicule or imprisonment) exposing themselves to the risk of injury. There were trade offs for… Read more »
“they were mostly kept SAFE.” By whom? They had to depend on men to keep them safe. The vast majority of women were essentially “sold” into marriage (which for the vast majority was nothing more than slavery with repeated rape/sex benefits for the man, whether the woman wanted them or not). The same is still true in many, MANY “developing” nations. Women (like chattel slaves) could be murdered with impunity. “Their” men could refuse them food, medical care, the right to a doctor/midwife during childbirth (when MOST women of pre-industrialised societies died). They were completely subject to and oppressed by… Read more »
Morgraine says:
“teh patriarchy” whatever that means”
Right there, you lose credibility with me and probably a lot of feminists.
==================================
Morgraine, I only worry about gaining or losing credibility with sensible people, so that’s okay.
You won’t see me losing sleep
Good article, hideous comments. What is it with the guys on the Spearhead? Is it any wonder that people think MRA’s are frickin lunatics? (which undermines all the legitimate issues they talk about) I think some of those guys need to follow Kiran’s lead and establish a society of male separatists, maybe on an island somewhere. Probably in a few years they will be able to do it, with female sex-bots for companions who make sandwiches and give blow jobs on demand. Procreation will be a problem, but maybe they can hire surrogate mothers on the mainland, only for sons… Read more »
Hi Erin –
Re social media and websites aimed at women and run by women, i am not suggesting a conspiracy. But i am suggesting that sites run by women seem to demonise and belittle or ignore men. Why? I am a woman and I am interested in men – hell, I love men, I’m a heterosexual man-loving woman. But on those feminist/female sites, my love of men doesn’t get a look in!
They can yes, just as MRA sites run by men can demonise and belittle women. Just as popular male websites lie Maxim really only objectify women.
I am a woman and I am also interested in men. In real conversations about men. Not just fluff. And I’m a woman and I also love women. Both genders offer alot and both genders need to be more honest about what they can do to improve. Both genders can easily fall into a trap of falling to far to the left.
Erin, Honestly, I would take your points seriously if they even remotely matched my own personal experience in “Gender Studies” courses. The reality of the situation is that “Gender Studies” is not actually interested in history, but instead is interested in advancing an agenda. Just to give a quick example: Shakespeare did not create the character of Lady Macbeth out of thin air. He based her on an ample historical record of women, even when not technically in power, exercising control and oppression as readily as any man. Perhaps one of the most famous examples of this is Theodora telling… Read more »
“Shakespeare did not create the character of Lady Macbeth out of thin air. He based her on an ample historical record of women, even when not technically in power, exercising control and oppression as readily as any man.” Except that there was a REAL Lady Macbeth (her name was Gruach) who was a queen in her own right, who ruled side-by-side with the REAL Macbeth, and the two were two of the greatest monarchs of Scotland and held off the English/Anglo/Romanised Catholic church by two more centuries. There were as many great and good women leaders in that time and… Read more »
There were as many great and good women leaders in that time and before as there were maliciously ambitious ones (but who could blame them for “acting like men” when we see what happened to the women who didn’t?).
So only men in your worldview can be instinctively ‘maliciously ambitious’? Youre a lunatic
donchya know, when a man does something BAD, it is because HE is bad, when a woman does it, it’s the evil patriarchy at force, cuz, y’konw, she doesn’t have any agency of her own. –and since typing doesn’t have tone, read that outloud in the most sarcastic voice you can muster
“donchya know, when a man does something BAD, it is because HE is bad, when a woman does it, it’s the evil patriarchy at force” No one is saying this. You’re putting words (really, you’re just trying to advance your own agenda) into others’ mouths/posts that no one has said or believed. If you had really looked with any honesty at feminist theories and those of patriarchy, you’d see that we recognise that men are also controlled and influenced by patriarchy. The difference between feminists and patriarchal apologists, however, is that feminists challenged the patriarchal constructs and patriarchal apologists (MRAs,… Read more »
James:
This is the same thing you see today:
Men who do horrible things are evil. Women who do horrible things are troubled and need therapy.
This is replicated when you talk about fathers vs mothers killing their own children, or male vs female teachers statutorily raping young teens, or men or women murdering their spouses (cough Mary Winkler).
How many women(Roman) actually COULD write and document events at that time?
Well the upper class Roman women could certainly read and write. That you suggest otherwise reveals the crazy hall-of-mirrors through which you see life. Upper class Roman women couldnt write or document the events? *roars with laughter*
“only men in your worldview can be instinctively ‘maliciously ambitious’” Excuse me, where did I say this? I even put the phrase “acting like men” in quotation marks. “the upper class Roman women could certainly read and write. ” No, actually, a lot of them couldn’t– they weren’t allowed. Nor were they allowed to vote or be part of the Senate (except in rare occasions). But please, let’s see some of these upper class Roman women’s analyses of the social, political, and economic issues of the times, in writing. Where are they? Please provide links. Most of the work of… Read more »
We can’t repair feminism because it’s legacy in popular culture encourages the resentment of men. To end this resentment feminism has to be discredited as a social theory and in it’s place the general principal gender equality will remain. The feminist approach to equality allowed women to do as they please while demanding many specific and general things of men in regard to their behavior towards women and even among themselves. This one sides approach to see men as defective and in need of repair was unjust and needs to stop. It made men afraid of being themselves in the… Read more »
(Applause) Very well said, Ed! I agree completely.
Feminism was devoted to providing more choices and freedom for women… at the expense of men, complete with a laundry-list of requirements and demands that men were supposed to meekly obey. Unsurprisingly, men were less enthusiastic about this, and remain uninterested today.
“What’s in it for me?” is a valid question men have, and one that feminism cannot answer.
Yeaaah… at the expense of men? At the expense of men!? Hey, rape of men is recognized because of feminism. Queer theory for LGBTQI people exists because of feminism. Domestic violence became a crime because of feminism. And other really good things exist because of feminism, too!
And which of them offer a benefit to men? Where’s the incentive for men to radically reform themselves to suit the feminist agenda–and where’s the acknowledgement that women need to do some reforming too?
“which of them offer a benefit to men?” You don’t think that the recognition that men can be raped is of benefit to men? You don’t think that the whole school of queer theory benefits many men? You don’t think that it benefits men to know that their female partners (and daughters and mothers and sisters) have access to laws and social structures that try to ensure fair pay, freedom from sexual harassment and assault, the right to participate in sport and other formerly “male” activities? You don’t think that the rights of women to be treated as full human… Read more »
Thanks for a great post, Quiet Riot Girl! As I was reading it, I couldn’t help but think that engaging men about their experiences about the construction and policing of masculinity is _essential_ to Feminism. It needs to be discussed. When we discuss gender policing in my class, my students tell me fascinating stories of how men are shamed for not behaving “properly.” Some have been ridiculed for liking the theatre. For changing “too many” diapers. For not liking sports. For helping too much around the house. Etc. By unpacking these constructions and discussing them with men, we come to… Read more »
Tony, When men are constantly met with comments like what about teh menz? and told they are mansplainin’–I don’t see where men fit in this except as someone like Schyzer who uses his “views” to manipulate students into having sex with him. There is a big power diferential there, is it not as sleazy or more so than a PUA? If it really is about equality, how come so few disagree with the overt bigotry of Amanda Marcotte? We have seen so many examples where men’s experiences are trivialized. At least Kiran above said that Feminism isn’t going to focus… Read more »
As I said, “when done well” it has great potential. Feminism, like every theoretical approach can be applied well or applied poorly. Further, there is an incredible spectrum of views that is encompassed by the term “Feminism.” One of the problems I see is that people pay attention to the loudest people who don the mantle of Feminism. They are not always representative of the entire spectrum of what is called Feminism. Kiran represents a certain view, but it’s not nearly the entirety of the story. You state “When men are constantly met with comments like what about teh menz?… Read more »
Tony,
I was exposed to the gendered insult mansplainin’ on the Feministe thread about PUA Gunwitch by Clarisse Thorn.
I also “met” Qiuet Riot Girl when I saw her dogpiled on on one of Clarisse Thorn’s articles. Funny how the moderation worked over there, insults are alright as long as they are aimed at the “right” people but anything questioning dogma gets moderated. I suppose there are Feminists with more moderate views who are willing to look at things with more than one angle.
As far as Schwyzer, well, you can check out this thread….
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/09/28/hugo-schwyzer-shuts-down-his-blog-noh/
If youre the Tony from the Feministe comment section, then youve certainly seen whataboutthemenz and mansplain’ barbs been thrown about. That you havent noticed it is telling
Tony, Two things. 1) In my estimation the man-hating variant is not feminism’s radical fringe, but rather it’s radical core. http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/cpf/newreadings/2001/feminist_hate_speech.htm Read some of the quotes from the FOUNDING MOTHERS of feminism. Milder feminists were drummed out of the movement. Erin Prizzey started the shelter movement in the UK. She was drummed out of her movement with death threats and bomb threats. Why? Because she dared to say that women committed violence too, and she wanted to open shelters to male victims. IN addition the President of NOW a while back stated that NOW didn’t want Obama’s stimulus (for “shovel… Read more »
“Read some of the quotes from the FOUNDING MOTHERS of feminism.” As I’ve pointed out before, YOUR and anti-feminists’ designation does not make these women the founders of ANYTHING. They are all important voices in feminism and social analysis, and to try to pigeonhole them via a few maliciously selected quotes is the ultimate in propaganda and dishonesty. You’ve just picked out quotes you don’t like and attributed them to some sort of Feminist Constitution, which does not in fact exist. And ALSO, as I’ve pointed out before, the inability to distinguish between a WRITER’S/theorist’s words and those of a… Read more »
These are quote from Catherine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Germaine Greer, Robin Morgan (editor of Ms. Magazine and one of Gores campaign managers), Marilyn French and Susan Brownmiller and you claim these weren’t the founding mothers of feminism? These were some of the LARGEST movers and shakers and powerbrokers in the early feminist movement. You’re the one being intellectually lazy. And you know what? You put the word “black” in front of men in their speeches and they could make a grand poobah (or wizard or whatever) at a klan rally blush and say “you’ve gone too far” I’m sorry that… Read more »
What part of: “the inability to distinguish between a WRITER’S/theorist’s words and those of a CHARACTER she created shows either intellectual dishonesty or a total lack of intellect full stop. “Finally, to cite all those “quotes” with no references– in other words, giving the reader no chance to look at the original and judge the context– is also both intellectually dishonest and purely lazy.” did you not understand? Provide links for each of those quotes so that they can be judged in context, or they’re worthless. I can cite hundreds/thousands/probably millions of really disgusting quotes by characters in books written… Read more »
I’m sorry that you don’t understand how actual scholarship works.
By your reckoning the Klan must be populated with 300 IQ folks.
I’ll tell you what Morgraine.
Why don’t you put this quote INTO context for me:
“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.”
Andrea Dworkin; from her book Ice and Fire .
Please illuminate this for me. Please explain why this quote is really OKAY. Please prove your point and explain how this quote really exemplifies feminism’s great concern over male issues.
Easy. Andrea Dworkin is a controversial and polarizing figure who does not represent the feminist movement at large.
Next!
Dear everyone,
After reading Kiran’s post, can anyone still sincerely disagree that we have a problem here?
Or that feminism’s reputation is a baseless stereotype.
Kiran. I imagine you are going to get a lot of unpleasant responses. And as a man, part of me wants to be angry with you. But I can’t be. I’ve spent too much time getting to know people that have been marginalized for trivial reasons outside of their control. Reading your response does hurt me, but not because I’m a man and it’s none too favorable toward men. It hurts me because it is utterly unacceptable that you should ever have to arrive at the point you seem to have arrived at. It hurts me that you and other… Read more »
Man she just said she hated you just for being a male in like 50 different ways. She does not need a space to be with women, in fact I think she needs more time with men along with men’s honest opinions. She has been insulated in a bubble of ignorance because men have been too afraid to speak out against this nonsense sooner. This is the product of our negligence as men. It’s not like we need to dominate anyone but at the least we have a right to defend our good name and our HUMANITY. This women sees… Read more »
I will consider her as a human being, we she’s starting to think the same about me and men as a group. Not sooner.
P.S. I assume all men are potential rapists. Therefore, I want women only space and resources free of the male anything. Leave us alone, let us study our herstory… you are nothing but roadblocks and threats and rapists and well, men, get out of our way. You have had the world long enough, a lot of us just don’t find your worthwhile to be with or study with. Go leave, and stop rape, stop male war, stop enslaveing us, and bying prositutes, stop your woman hating porn, hey we’ve had it with you. Times up, go somewhere else and stop… Read more »
OK Kiran fine. So don’t bother commenting on a site and a post that is talking about *MEN*.
Go to your women’s only spaces and have a great time. But leave men, and me, who loves men, alone.
Hi Kiran,
The type of place you are looking for does exist. I’ve provided a link below.
http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/
Looks like there is a new post authored by the famous London born Sheila Jeffreys – she does hold several odd views – so don’t Google her too much. It may be disappointing.
I’ve read a few of Kiran’s posts and I’ve been laughing. “She” can’t be serious. I think this must be some kind of anti-feminist troll trying to make feminists look as crazy as possible.
Possibly. But I’ve been on some feminist webpages before, and you DO see a lot of behavior like Kiran’s. Feminist web-pages are some of the most heavily moderated–and not fairly. If you mention that men have it rough too on some of these webpages in a polite way, it will quickly turn into a dogpile with some of the nastiest comments imaginable. If you’re a man, you’re accused of being 1) a f@g, 2) you hate women 3) a rapist of women (a f@g who rapes women??) and so forth. If you’re a woman you’re called a betrayer, told you… Read more »
Whaaaaaaaaaaat?
Have you even read any of the feminist blogs? No feminist will use “fag” as an insult! Your argument is argumentum ad hominem at its most vile form, man. Shit. Feminist is monolithic? So laughable. My god, I like NSWATM and the issues it talks about, but… seeing the comments on this post.. God. No wonder feminists don’t respond to y’all.
MRA’s masculinity is often called into question and they are often accused of whining……
NSWATM-
kind of a condescending name, even in jest, maybe that’s why Quiet Riot Girl spelled it Men, instead of menz…..
No Nelf, The many feminists like Kiran who populate these other boards mostly don’t post here, because they know they can’t rely on their intellectually bullying tactics. Don’t bother disputing them, they are too well known for you to play the smoke screen now. Any person (man or woman) who talks about men being victims too will be dogpiled with the most vicious insults, but as soon as that lone detractor starts using even the most slightly acerbic or sarcastic comments (not even name calling) he or she will be baned. Most of these feminist pages are mindless echo chambers,… Read more »
I also wonder if the rules of grammar, spelling, and punctuation are being disregarded as patriarchal constructions in this case. It could be an attempt by an unscrupulous anti-feminist to cast feminism in a negative light in the eyes of other writers and editors, perhaps to alienate English teachers?
I get the message in using the word “herstory” instead of or alongside “history.” There are many feminists who write in other languages besides English who find this a little anglocentric, since it is only in English that there is this play on words. In Spanish, for example, the word for “history” is actually a feminine noun. Only in English is there this coincidence of a masculine possessive term and the word history. Let’s not stop there. I suggest we have optional words for everything with male-sounding word roots. For example: Menopause becomes Womenopause or womynopause Menstruation becomes Womenstruation or… Read more »
I remember going to a coffee shop in Santa Cruz years ago and seeing an ad for “Open Michelle Night” (instead of open mike night). Granted, this was in the early ’90’s, in the heyday of political correctness. Even then, it seemed a little extreme.
FYI, the word for hysteria and hysterectomy come from the Latin word (or Greek?) for uterus. In ancient times, doctors believed that a woman’s uterus could come loose and migrate around her body, causing emotional upset and strange bodily symptoms. True.
I think I did know that about hysteria. I seem to remember reading that vibrators were first developed by doctors to “treat” women for “hysteria” in the late 19th century. My theory is that’s when mothers started wanting their daughters to marry doctors….
Actually, it’s Mic as in short for microphone, so the idea of an Open Michelle Night is truly a case of over-reaching.
The irony of ignorant feminists renaming “history” to “herstory” is that the root of “history” is “hyster” which means “of or pertaining to the womb”. In other words history is already a female root. It goes back to the ancient concept of history being one of the muses – female inspirations for noble human pursuits.
Feminists who rename history betray their deep ignorance of the meaning of words.
I’m sorry, but I think this view is extreme and completely unproductive. Most men are not rapists or murderers and the fact that more men are does not necessarily implicate all other men. I say this as someone who was been raped and assaulted and harassed. Still, I choose to assume most men are good people. Why? Because most of the men I know are good people. It’s just as ridiculous to say that all men are worthless as it is to suggest that all feminists hate men. You may and that’s your prerogative, but you are commenting on a… Read more »
Hey Fardarter, this blog does not ban women from commenting, and we don’t threaten men with death on our exclusive women only sites. So there is no hypocracy here. Men own the world, men destroy and control women every day. What I want is places where women can discuss our freedom. Back in the day, I went to a big 10 university, and EVERY professor in politics and history was a male. There was a light, the beginning women’s studies classes, and there women gathered to study American history that men for generations did everything in their power to erase… Read more »
Kiran: Where was this eschewing of all things male when feminists beseeched an overwhelmingly male congress to pass the discriminatory (and unconstitutional) VAWA? Where was this eschewing of all things male when feminists marched from state legislature to state legislature to pass no-fault divorce which has given mothers sole custody THIRTEEN TIMES AS OFTEN to mothers over fathers? For all the talk about not needing or wanting men, feminists are the BIGGEST embracers of “teh poor widdle women can’t do nuttin on her own” Patriarchal themes and having “big tough man” come and save them. As long as it’s not… Read more »
@Kiran
News flash lesbian relationships are subject to the same levels of violence if then hetero relationships. I take it that you are in fact a lesbian separatist giving out flawed history lessons. Your opinions are infected with an incredible amount of bias. If I were you I would try to look for more objectivity.
Actually lesbian relationships are much more violent than hetero ones. I wonder who we can blame for the violence when no man is around.
Lookup “She stole my voice” in a search engine for a documentary on lesbian rape. If I remember correctly 30% of lesbians state they are raped by a woman not necessarily her partner.
When feminists talk about stopping violence against women, this gets almost no mention. I wonder why (chuckle).
I have been in the queer community for nearly 20 years. NONE of my friends who are lesbian have been raped by women. But MANY have been molested/raped by MEN. This 30% number is ridiculous-and I am VERY curious about this ‘documentary’. Doesn’t sound like the film makers had any reliable sources whatsoever.
Margot: Violence against women was once a taboo topic. Advocates had to press and press to make people discover that it was a real problem. Why? Because assaulted wives / gf’s (whisper): weren’t talking about it? What makes you think your gay friends would talk about being raped to you? I would imagine that these researchers got their information the same way researchers broke the truth about the wide-spread violence against women: through anonymous surveys. Just because you’re not hearing about it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. That is what researchers proved about violence against women (and they encountered just… Read more »
Kiran, I strongly suspect that a great many women and every man on earth will gladly chip in to support getting you and your fellow sisters on a space shuttle bound for the dark side of the moon. Once there, not only will you be guaranteed that no male will ever stray into your presence, but you can collectively work to remove the x chromosome your father passed on to you.
Kiran is why we need a Men’s Rights Movement. If these women’s studies departments are churning out women with this insane hatred of the male gender, that needs to be challenged if not stopped. Imagine the poor boys indoctrinated with a hatred of their own gender… what does that do to his self esteem?
Kiran, The great irony is that not only do you deny men the right to come onto feminist blogs and have a say, even when they are the topic of discussion, but you deny men the right to have their own space by coming onto a site dedicated to our issues and telling us how useless the project is. What is also amazing is the hypocrisy of commanding men to create a safe space for women by not reacting to something said about them, and then coming on here and reacting to something said about women. That said, you are… Read more »
*really want an edit button.
…kind men who have been rolled over by feminist dogma on feminist sites.
Oh, jeez. No thanks. Keep us out of it. Really. How on Earth could academic Gender People ever possibly get to know enough about men to study us usefully? The best you could do would be like 19th century anthropologists studying the “savages” in “darkest Africa”. About what they’ve got to say about us now, in fact. No thanks. Besides, Gender People exclude the concerns of masculinity because it is their enemy. It is the part of the human race they cannot understand. They fear it because it is alien to them, yet has a habit of building enormously large,… Read more »
well I am a ‘gender person’ and I write about masculinity. But I understand where you are coming from.
“Masculinity… is their enemy… is alien to them… There’s a lot of power there — all of the power is there, actually.” Way to prove the point, Normal Straight Man. I’ll let my engineers/scientists-with-vaginas friends know that on your say-so they should give up their silly careers and leave all the wilderness-taming and scary-machine-building to the more capable hands of Tough Humans With Penises—or butch dykes, who perform “masculine” better than many of your biologically male weirdoes and queers. Also ironic (for this thread, not for your apparent frame of mind) is the reference to 19th-century anthropology. It happened to… Read more »